 Welcome, everybody. We ready, Kami? We're ready. Okay, so I guess we're just going to introduce ourselves. So I'll start with me. You know, Kevin Cristiano, I've been working on work camps for a long time. Got involved in mentoring because of two of the people that are actually in this room who sucked me in. And yeah, Brandon's smiling. And I've been doing it for a while, and it's a really worthwhile experience. So that's a little bit about me. Kami? I'm Kami, and I am a community organizer on the WordPress open source project, which means I do stuff like this. Primarily, I work with the WordPress events program, WordCamps, Meetups, and whatever other interesting things we're doing right now. Along with Kevin, I was the lead organizer, the co-lead organizer of WordCampUS for several years. I was also an organizer in Portland, and mentoring is something that I, it's my favorite part of my job. I'm privileged to be able to do it. That's what I have to say about that. And so we just want to really briefly make sure you all know that this is being recorded because we want to share it with the rest of the community. And if you would like to opt out of speaking or having your camera on, go ahead. We're totally understanding of that. Otherwise, here we all are. It's nice to see you. Briefly, we're going to explain the mentorship program for anyone who's not crystal clear on it. The mentorship program is part of the deputy program, but it's slightly separate in that it is a requirement of the mentorship program that you have been a lead organizer of a WordCamp, because we find it is best to be able to mentor other lead organizers when you've had similar experiences and have some real life experience to draw off of. And it's a simple commitment depending on how many WordCamps you're mentoring. The most amount of work you might be doing is a couple hours a month. Is there anything you wanted to add to that, Kevin, before we get into the details? No, that's about, no, that's great. Okay. So what I'd like to do is invite each of you to introduce yourself briefly. Let us know where you're coming from. If you're currently a mentor or if you're aspiring to be a mentor and what interested you in this call today. And we can start with Brandon and then Kathy, and then we'll go with Michael and then Courtney. All right. I am Brandon Dove. I have been organizing WordCamps also for a very long time. I'm from Orange County, California, and I have been part of the community team also for quite a bit of time, mentoring WordCamps and mentoring mentors along the way. And it's been a great transition from doing organizing of a WordCamp and helping other WordCamps to avoid the same stumbling blocks that I got. So I've found that to be pretty fulfilling, especially as we're sort of transitioning WordCamps into this day and age and figuring things out as we go. So yeah, that's why I'm here. Hi, I'm Kathy Druin. I'm from Atlanta, a current mentor, and I don't know how long I've been doing that because I've been involved in community for so long that all blurs together. My primary interest of being here today is because the world changed, and we're making it up as we go along, and this is the best place to do it. And Brandon, I had a hard time hearing you. I don't know if that's my ears or your mic. I think if mic is a little low, I had a boost. I will get closer. Sorry. Michael? Yeah, hi. I'm Michael King, was lead organizer for WordCamp in New York a couple of times, and have been around offering advice to the subsequent organizers over the years and figured why not make that more official. So here I am, still in New York. Courtney? Oh yes, that's me. I'm Courtney Patubo-Krancki. I am also a full-time contributor on the community team. I was a lead organizer for WordCamp Portland for a couple of years, and I'm currently participating as an organizer on the design team for WordCamp US, and lots of mentoring. Like Kami is one of my favorite parts of this work that we do, and I'm here for the support and camaraderie of my fellow mentors. I feel like these in-person or face-to-face meetings are really good for just boosting a little bit of confidence as well as camaraderie. So good to be here. We're doing super great on time, so I just want to go through the agenda with you all really quickly so you know what to expect. We're going to start with Kevin sharing the mentor best practices, and then I'm going to talk about some common mentor pitfalls. And then if anyone has any questions about anything that Kevin or I said, we'll take some quick Q&A there, but we really want to focus the majority of this call on a roundtable discussion with what all of you are seeing and feeling and any questions and concerns you might have or ideas. And we want to focus that on our active mentors and then we'll open up for questions from our non-yet active mentors. So that will just be Michael getting asked all the questions and saying all the things he might want to say. And then we'll wrap it up. Does that sound good? All right, Kevin. Okay, so Kami assigned me mentor best practices. So I mean, I hope these all are. These are lots of things that I do when I mentor a camp. One of the things that if you get assigned to camp, I mean, just remember, and I'll digress, you're not going to get assigned to a camp you don't want. You're always asked. There is no compulsory mentorship. But once you're assigned and you get the introduction to the lead organizers, the most key thing is establishing communications and a clear line of communications. You know, how often do you want to meet set their expectations? I kind of look at it. If you depending on what work you do as client management, because if you set the expectations nice and early, then they'll know what to expect all throughout the project. It's just the same fuck process that I go through. Set the boundaries. If you want them to be texting you on, you know, on your phone all the time, go ahead. If you don't, don't give me your phone number. Get, you know, set up how you want to be contacted when you should be contacted. It's all about in my mind telling them, you know, how do you reach me? How can I be responsive? How can I help you? Because in the end, you know, when you mentor, you're guiding the camp. These organizers, even the series, even the seasoned organizers are going to hit something at each camp that they haven't hit before. They're all going to hit something that we've never seen before. Because it's a word camp and it, things just happen. So we need to guide them. We need to help them with our experience. And it really helps because the mentors, since they're part of the deputy program, you kind of have tools and access that the lead organizers many times don't have. So that, you know, we're all volunteer organization. So if an organizer emails into support at wordcamp.org and needs an answer immediately, it's going to be vetted by the normal queue. If they go to their mentor and you're able to then help them out, you can basically triage the problem and get to the person who can solve the problem if you can't. So it's all about those communication lines and guiding them. You know, to me, I like to talk to the team and have them focus on what's important about the camp. So what is the camp experience? And as was pointed out already, you know, these online camps that are brand new, you know, it's like 2009 all over again, we're making it up as we go along. We don't know the right way to do everything. And we're going to use our discretion. But the key thing is focus on the camp experience for the attendees. As a mentor, you shouldn't get into the details, though now I've got negative chemistry. I know that's your job. But keep it at a high level. Keep them focusing on what's important. Oftentimes organizers start worrying about the small stuff. And they can't focus on the big picture. And it's our job to guide them down the right path. The other thing that I do as a mentor, and I don't know if this is a best practice or just because it's me, is I do listen to them a lot on their budgets, the finances and how they feel. I do a lot of that work for the community anyway. So I kind of fall naturally into it. But as opposed to a budget review, you're really looking at budget and financing on, okay, we've got this event going. How do I make it work? How do we make it happen? You know, they've hit a problem, you know, thinking more of a physical event. They're not getting the sponsorships they thought they were. They're not getting the ticket sales. There's unexpected expenses. We're not in a role to slash and burn their budget and cut out all the fun stuff. We're now to guide them to say, look at it and say, okay, what is most important to the camp? How can we still make this happen? Really, without, you know, you want to be positive as you go through this experience and just keep them coming back to, you know, who is this camp for and how can we make it happen? You know, we can solve money. Well, after the pandemic, maybe not so easily anymore, but money isn't the problem. It's giving out a good product. So I get involved in that, but keep it positive. The other thing that I tend to focus on is I don't get involved in, like as a team member in speaker selection, sponsors, volunteers, any of that, but I do talk to them about where are you on your call for speakers, call for sponsors, call for volunteers. How are you doing with them? Do you have a good diversity of speakers? I encourage them to start their outreach even the day of the day they post the call for speakers, not the day they decide who the speakers are. They get to do all of the work. I know I spoke with Kathy at one point and it's kind of like having, you know, a niece or a grandchild and, you know, this is not your camp. This is not your worries. You get to put it away and not worry about it when the call ends. So you get to have the good fun part and they get to do all the work. I look at it that way, but since at the heart of the experience is the speakers, the volunteers, and in many ways the sponsors, because that's where the money comes from, I keep them on track. It's almost like a little bit of helping them with project management. One thing I keep in mind is that the organizers we get in come from varied backgrounds. We're going to get some people who've done events before. We're going to get others who don't, haven't. Developers, designers, all sorts of folks, they may never have managed a project, never have run an event, and they're going to need help with these and especially key deadlines. So I try to focus on that. And the last thing that I keep in my mind is something that I think has actually kept me sane or have tried to is that a WordCamp is an event for the community and we're all going to try new things. And it's actually okay if some of these things we try fail. And it's not our job to shut things down. It's our job to make them happen. Yes, if there's something absolutely ridiculous, and we can give examples, we can talk about that later, we do stop it. But by and large, if it's a reasonable idea, let them try it, let them experiment, and if it doesn't work, that's okay. So those are the key points that I think about. Kami, did I leave anything else off that I talked about prior? Anything big thing that I'm missing? No, I think you got it. Okay. So that's, to me, that's basically how I approach mentoring. And I'd call them more my coping skills on how to run it well. Best practices makes me sound more efficient. But that's kind of my take on that. I think at this point, Kami gets to do the common mentor pitfalls. So more than anything, we're going to talk about some bad things that can happen. And there are sometimes bad things that happen that are not your fault. And I want to start with those. Raise your hand if you've mentored a camp that you found you had such a difference of opinion or a personal conflict with the organizer that you needed to have them take a new or a new mentor. Just Kathy, okay. And if you don't want to, there have been times, there are times that you will find yourself mentoring someone. And for whatever the reason is, it becomes toxic to your emotional wellbeing to continue that mentor mentee relationship. In some cases, it is just a personality conflict. In some cases, it is sexism, or it is racism, or it is some sort of other prejudice that you perceive. I have had male organizers refuse to listen to me. And then I asked Kevin to tell them something and they immediately do what he says. And so for me, that's kind of my litmus test. I'm like, well, what happens if I get someone else to do it? Okay, this isn't functional. It's hurting me. And they're getting nothing from the relationship. So if you find yourself as a mentor, as Kevin said, the mentor relationship is voluntary. We're not going to make you take on a mentorship that you don't want. But if once you find yourself in a mentorship, and you find that it is not working and they're not listening to you or that it is damaging to you, that is the time that you stop and say, hey, Kami, hey, Kevin, hey, Brandon, hey, Courtney, hey, Kathy, anyone on this call that's not Michael, because Michael isn't officially a mentor yet, we'll be able to stop that train in the station and find a way to help, find a way to have someone else help that event so that you aren't in your suffering through that, and that they're actually getting the help they need. If it is a really big issue, sometimes that is also an indication that that event needs to not be happening. And there have been instances of that as well that we've seen in this program, where the mentor relationship was so toxic. And then we gave them a new mentor and it was so toxic. And the event should have never happened in the first place. So know that that's not just that's not something that you're failing at. That's something that is actually a deep rooted problem. And we want to find a way out of that for you. So that's the big one. That's one that's not your fault at all. Some of the things that we fall into the trap of though, the first one I want to talk about is mentoring your friends, or mentoring in a city that you have already been the lead organizer in. It's best for mentor relationships to be friendly, but for them to not be your friend. If you have a personal relationship with the person you're mentoring, it's not a mentor relationship, it's a buddy chat. And there's a big difference there. Mentors are meant to guide you, remind you of things that organizers frequently forget, and to be your contact toward Camp Central. And also to, as Kevin mentioned before, stay in the bounds of what you find appropriate in the mentor relationship. If you already have a personal relationship with that person, it's not going to work out, right? And I find over and over again, if someone mentors a city that they were the lead organizer for, they wind up doing organizing work, not mentorship work. So that's one thing that we always want to avoid. And when someone requests to mentor one of those situations, we always try to talk them out of it. The next thing, Kathy and Kevin had that conversation about a mentor relationship being like getting to play with your grandchild or your niece or nephew. And I can't strongly enough agree that it really is, and that's how it should feel. But anyone who has been emotionally involved with someone that they can just hand off at the end of the day knows that there is a point at which you say, oh, no, things are not quite right here. And you have to have the hard conversation. So sometimes as a mentor, you do have to observe and listen and see what's happening. And stop things and say, hey, have you considered that this might be problematic? Or have you considered a different approach on this? The one that I see most frequently, too, I'll tell it shared, too, that I see most frequently is a complete and utter lack of diversity in the organizing team and the speakers. And that is the easiest trap for word camps to fall into. And it is one thing that I wish all mentors would help them out of. You have to start that early. You have to start that at the beginning. And the second thing that they fall into is I'm going to do things the way I want to do them, and no one at Central is going to notice. Maybe no one at Central will notice, but it's still not a responsible use of funds. It's still not a good representation of the program. So if you see things like that, that's also a time to say, hey, stop. And if they don't listen to you, those two instances are moments where you talk to someone from WordPress community support from Central, from however you want to say it. You call in somebody else to say, hey, how do I get through to them? All good on those? I do. I should have let Kevin be the heavy. One of the other things that we fall into is when we get too friendly, we start to let our guard down and we don't like to say no to things. And so if you get too friendly with your mentees or if you, as Kevin said, give them your cell phone number because he wants them texting you all the time, it becomes a personal relationship rather than a mentor-mentee relationship. And you find yourself unable to be objective. You find yourself being woken up in the middle of the night when they have some great idea because they live in a different time zone or they keep different hours than you. And so I really encourage you to keep those boundaries firm because they're something that you need. For me, I meet with most of my mentees every two weeks and I check in with them on the off week to see if they need anything. They know that they are welcome to ping me and slack anytime they need me. But that it might take me a little while to answer because I am not an on-call nanny. I am there to support them and help them organize the best of it for the WordPress community that they can and to make it easier for them. I am not there to just do everything for them. And the last pitfall that I find people really fall into is even when you're not associated with the city that you're mentoring, doing things. As a mentor, you shouldn't be doing anything. It is not your job to take on a task for the organizing team. If they ask you, you need to clarify your relationship as their mentor. And if you find yourself randomly doing it, you need to do some soul searching about how you can better set your boundaries. I know I have fallen into that gap a few times as well. Those are the big pitfalls from where I see them. Kevin, is there anything I'm missing? No, those are really good. Excellent. So now we have like five minutes to answer any questions you have about best practices or about pitfalls. And if you don't have any, we can move right onto the part where everyone gets to talk. Can I show off my WordCamp Orange County coffee mug? Okay. It looks like y'all have no questions, which is fantastic. So what I would like to do is give each of you like two minutes to just share your thoughts on mentorship and then see if that spurs some discussion. And if it doesn't, I'll have some questions for you. So we can go in the same order if you'd like to. Or if someone has a burning desire to say something, they can start whatever works best. Anyone have a preference? And I think we should just, yeah, I think we should just include Michael in this, since we have literally one person who's not an active mentor. It'll get weird. All right. Brandon, please. I think my feedback just based on all this stuff is like, as you guys were kind of talking about some things, I had written some things down that kind of came up as I was mentoring things. And I think one of the, like, I think the biggest barrier to becoming a mentor is like, I don't know all the things. Like, how can I possibly tell somebody else to be, you know, this is all the right stuff? Like, you know, like, I like that both Kevin and Cammy like asked each other, like, did I forget anything? Because I feel like that all the time, like, I feel like I've forgotten something or even if I haven't been doing something for two weeks, usually I check in with my mentor, my organizers every two weeks. And sometimes in two weeks, span of time, there's been tons of changes to the community program, you know, how word camps are going, things have been going on. And so keeping up with what is the best practice is often like a challenge for you if you've got other work that you should be doing that you're getting paid for, all that kind of stuff. So like, to me, knowing that like I have this, you know, wonderful resource of people around me that I can go, Hey, Kevin, like, what, what are we doing with budgets these days? Like, like, what, what are we spending on? Or what are we not approving things like that? Like, every person in here definitely uses their experience to help me be a better mentor, because I definitely don't know all the things, even though I've been in the program for a long time, I think that's actually worse for me because it's changed so much since when I started. So keeping up with that can be a challenge. But I think like my, my ultimate goal, like Kevin said, was to kind of project manage the project manager of their word camp, right? So you give them, you know, a lot of people with no experience with word camp, like have been to a word camp, that's why they want to organize a word camp. So they have this ideal picture in their brain about what is the perfect word camp. And so a lot of times with first time organizers, they try to recreate that same thing in a different location. And it doesn't always land the same way because it's, it's just a different community locally. So I think the biggest thing I tried to get people to remember is, if you can get people up on stage talking about WordPress, and, you know, people showing up to listen to that, like that's a successful word camp period. Like right there does not have to have like the best swag. It does not have to have, you know, clowns in the parking lot dancing or whatever. Like it does not, no clowns period, but it, it doesn't have to be a show. You know what I mean? Like really word camps that when I first started going to word camps, the thing that made me want to be an organizer was because it was an infectious kind of thing, sharing information with other human beings. And if you remember that when you're organizing, like you'll always have the end user in mind, right? Somebody who is going to be coming to your word camp to consume and learn about WordPress. That is the ultimate goal I keep trying to remind all of my organizers that I mentor because, because ultimately that's, that's what it's all about. We're not, we're not here putting on the best conference in the world. We're putting on a conference to teach people about how to use WordPress, right? So that's, that's one of those things I also made a note before you said mentoring friends can be super hard, Cammy, because yes, like we both mentor John Hawkins and neither one of us should have. Yeah, I know. And I think, I think like that's one of the first things that we hear from mentors who want to join the program is I've done a couple word camps in this neighboring word camp, you know, needs my help or has asked me to help them. Can I be a mentor for them? And it can get tricky with those personal relationships. So just, you know, it takes a really, a really firm hand and a really good relationship to be able to do that, I think. But it's still, it's still super, super hard. So I definitely do not recommend it. As a mentor, bubbling up tools that we use in the word, like, most, most organizers have used WordPress, right? But the word camp site building process is not like you would expect building a WordPress site, right? Like, we have specific tools block shortcuts, like all these things that exist, that you may not know how to use or understand what their purpose is, until you've actually run and put together one of those sites. And that can be a big challenge for people. So just kind of like setting expectations of you're going to be working with a very custom installation of WordPress that has limitations, but also has these, these tools for you to use, bubbling up some of those things are, are really important and showing them where the documentation is. Because one thing I get asked every time my mentor is like, oh, well, how do I do this? Right? And like, it is not your job as a mentor to answer, how do I do this? Your job is to say, here's the documentation. We all have spent tons and tons of time updating this on a regular basis when things change. So like, here's your resource. Like, this is your guide when I'm not talking to you directly. But also, there are some things that get lost in the documentation shuffle. So finding out people who are doing that legwork, making it work can happen and taking that, like, we have a gap here and taking it back to the team who's, who's working on those documents to update them so everybody has access to those like that, I feel as a mentor, that's like one of my responsibilities. And then the last thing I will just say is just sort of as a cautionary tale. For me, like, I've been, I've been through several mentorships now and a couple of them have asked me to meet with their entire team rather than just a lead organizer. And that always ends up really bad. Because then not only are you dealing with one person who needs to ask questions, but you're also helping the sponsor person find sponsors or like, you know, answering questions about how do I find sponsors or you're answering like, you know, can I have this kind of a food at my event? And you end up mentoring like seven or, you know, more people at the same time, which is exhausting. So, so sticking to your lead mentor or your lead organizer is really important for that. But also so that you don't undermine their authority on their team to like make sure that their camp, yeah, they're there, they should be the ultimate leader of their camp and, you know, designating everybody else to do things, not you. So when you come from a place that, you know, seems like it's a higher place, they often ask you and they go around their lead organizer, which should not happen. So that's it for me as far as, as far as things that I've learned along the way right now. Before we move on to the next person, I first want to say thank you to Brandon. That was phenomenal. And then I want to say the first thing that Brandon said is the one thing that Kevin and I both forgot when we were checking in with each other to see what we forgot. The thing that we discussed yesterday, the most important part about being a mentor is the comfort of saying I don't know. But let's find out or I don't know, but this is where we go to find out. And that is my favorite, that is my favorite, that sentence is my favorite resource as an organizer, as a volunteer, as a contributor, as a mentor. In this program, we have way too much information available. And it is being updated far too frequently, far too frequently, not frequently enough probably. And we can't possibly know all the things all of the time. So never be afraid to say I don't know, but I know how we can figure that out. And I'll take one other, I do the same thing. I also use that when I hear a particularly odd idea. And I don't want to just shut it down. Like, hey, is it cool if we have acts throwing at our after party? It's like, hmm, I don't know, let me look into that and find out. Now, you know, and maybe they could make it work. And the people I'm thinking about almost pulled it off. But the point is, is that rather than just say, no, what, throwing axes, there'll be people and children and drinking. This is a bad idea. It's like, no, let's find out. So I find that a really effective tool for, you know, to kind of start to walk people back if you think it's a little crazy. And it helps you because maybe I'm the crazy one. And I check in with Brandon or Kathy or Courtney and they go, no, that sounds okay. Oh, all right. So in this case, the acts throwing around alcohol and children did not sound okay. Just putting that out there. Didn't sound okay to me. Good instincts, Michael. Kathy, you have some darts, but that's what's on the point. I also question dirt. Kathy, do you have some some stuff to share? I do. I will tell you how I stepped into it up to my eyeballs. I raised my hand as a yes when you asked, has anybody ever fallen into this huge pitfall? And I need to change my view because I'm looking at my whole damn face. Okay. It was okay when you all were the speakers, but not when I was a speaker. In short, I wandered into a boundary list communication system that had no boundaries. And I've got enough distance on it at this point to know where I allowed that to happen. And what started out as something being very subtle, we had two weeks set up, you know, every two weeks call me at this time, blah, blah, blah. And the very first time that that was not okay, I let it slide. Yes, I can agree to meet you at this and chat at this time. So that was the first slippery thing. And it escalated because I pride myself on being a people person. And so I fall into being overly generous to the point where then I go, oh my God, we're in this huge mess. And at that time, I raised my hand said I can't do this anymore. And I should, it would have been nice if I had that self-awareness much earlier in the process. Because then I could have said, we've let this slide twice now. We need to get back on track. And that might have circumvented it. But it did not. The flip side of having to let go of that mentoring relationship is that now, when my path crosses with that organizer, there's a sense of awkwardness that both of us have. And it's taken us several years to kind of stop walking on eggshells a little bit. And I think we've healed that, but we've never discussed it, you know. So I guess my message here is be firm in your boundaries or with your boundaries. There's always an occasion where it's okay to say, yeah, we'll do it differently this one time, but recognize it's just this one time. As a grandparent, I have no trouble saying, Nana doesn't play that way. And I am confident enough in my skills as a mentor to be able to say, my role as a mentor doesn't allow for that, you know, in all of the nice ways that you can be diplomatic. I adore being a mentor. Each situation is so different. You know, I've been organizing word camps since 2010, and yet every situation is different. My very last mentorship just kind of fizzled out because it was a brand new camp. They started talking about new camp, lots of excitement. Must have been January or maybe even the fall of the year before, you know. But then all of a sudden March hits us and we've stumbled along a little bit. Are we going to be able to have a camp? Are we not going to be able to have a camp? Do you want to pivot to being online? And it was just such a disappointment for everybody involved because as a brand new camp, they didn't feel like they had the oomph to pull off a virtual camp. And so it was heartbreaking to watch the leaders knowing that their team also were just going from topmost excitement to the devastation and disappointment. Not only is it not going to happen this year as a live camp, it's also not going to happen as a virtual camp. And so they're just now left floundering. And so it's difficult at times because organizing a camp is an emotional journey. And my role as a mentor is to somewhat hold their hand as they journey through that process, not jumping into doing the work for them, but recognizing there's a lot writing on this emotionally and being sensitive to that. So that's kind of all I've got to say. It's a hard job, but I love every minute of it, except the days that I don't. And then I have people I can reach out to and slack in the heartbeat and going, okay, today I hate it. Tomorrow will be different. Thank you, Kathy. You be emotional. There are some mentor calls that I have that aren't about logistics at all. They're about how the organizer is coping with things on the team and coping with balancing life. And they don't need me to fix the problem. They just need to know that they're not the only person who's experienced that problem. And that's where we kind of act as a sailing board. So I really appreciate that you brought that up. Courtney, do you have anything to share? I had to find my mute button. I would echo a lot of those same sentiments. And so I don't want to repeat too much, but it has, I personally have some of folks in this room know this. I have a hard time saying no. And having the team, other mentors and other folks on the community team that I can go to for support and confidence checks is super, super helpful. And I think at first I felt like I wanted to take pride in my mentoring and I wanted to like see it all the way through, but I ran into so many pitfalls that it just brought me down and made me a bad mentor. But eventually I bounced back from it because I saw myself through that pride. I swallowed it because I wanted to impress folks with like, yeah, I can do this by myself, but I couldn't. And remembering like being it when I was an organizer, being able to use my team and the community team as a resource was so helpful and kind of my saving grace. And so I learned from that. And I also went in this to the campsite mentors just like, yeah, don't try to do it all yourself. There's a whole team and a whole community here that has, that can support you through this. And yeah, something I didn't expect through both WordCamp organizing and mentoring is like how emotional of a process it can be. And it's a lot of work. So the lesson learned here is just like lean on, lean on your teammates, lean on your fellow deputies and mentors. And I will also repeat what Kami said like, I don't know, but let's find out is like the line I say most often to my mentees. The alternative statement to that is often, you know, let me talk to some other folks, other mentors and other deputies to see what they think about this. I'm not sure if this is allowed. So yeah, I do a lot of confidence checks. And yeah, I think that's pretty much all I can think of. Thank you Courtney. We all do those. I find particularly helpful that you admitted that you were a bad mentor at times. I've been a bad mentor and that's really hard to say. I don't even like saying it like echoing you. We all, we all fail at things. And failure is how we get better. We don't learn a lot from being right. But we do learn a lot from being wrong and from moving out of that experience. So thank you for the vulnerability. Yeah, yeah, in pride often gets in the way. I learned to that from a movie called Pulp Fiction. But yeah, the first time around is just that pride gets in the way. And yeah, definitely learned from that experience. Michael, do you have any questions for our experienced mentors? If not, I have a topic I would love for us to discuss. Yeah, I have no questions at the moment. This all sounds familiar to other things I've done in the past. So not for us really. Is it making you want to still be a mentor? Not scaring me off. Yay, fantastic. We do have stories that will do that if you require. We do. So what I would I would really know I've been around long enough that they probably wouldn't scare me off. What I would really love to hear everyone's thoughts on Kevin included is how we as mentors fit to support not just online word camps, but a variety of different events that are happening online right now. We're looking, I mean, I mentor word camps, but I also have one meetup group that's a specialty meetup group that I mentor. I also mentor the youth program. And so how do we look at supporting our organizers in finding new ways to reach WordPress users and community members with these online events? What are your thoughts? What are some things that we're going to have to do differently or some things maybe that you have seen? I know Kathy has had, I have also had word camps I mentor that went from we're going to do this. Oh, it's online. And I don't, I'm curious, do you think there's something that we could do that would help encourage people to go online? Do you think that there's something we can do to help the camps that are online? I want information from all of you because I don't have the answers. That's a big question. It's a big question. I mean, I'm super excited that Angela posted the reimagining the online events question yesterday on this, on the make site. Like even just looking at some of the options that are presented there, like I'm like, okay, like this, this kind of changes the way I might run my meetup or things like that. Like it gave me a different way to approach it. I think I've seen a couple different things in the past and this is more for meetups than word camps. But like I saw someone posting recently about inviting people from other communities to present because we are over Zoom, it's so easy to bring someone from anywhere in. I know we've had attendees from all over joining our meetup in the last few months. So I think, I think that that is going to continue. Like a lot of people we actually out last night was our meetup. And I asked for feedback because we had changed the format. We had been doing more of like a webinar style meetup where I was presenting and everyone else was just kind of in listen only mode. And like I felt really disconnected from that. Like it made me feel like I was just talking to my camera, you know, and like no, like it could, no one could be there or tons of people could be there and it wouldn't matter. And it felt very like lonely. And so last night I had actually shifted it to a meetup that's more like this where, you know, we have the Brady Bunch and everybody had the opportunity to comment, you know, in real time, just like we had at our original meetups. Definitely a little more risky because anybody can be there from anywhere. But it worked out great. Like everybody was, you know, the feedback was overwhelmingly positive about seeing each other and talking to each other in sort of real time. People got questions answered, rather than having to use a panel to like ask a question, they were able to just ask the question with their voice. And so it was really great to feel connected again to the community that we work with even in, you know, even if there were some of them who were in different places. So I think that that's really a great side effect. I recently mentored a word camp that also was going to be in person shifted to being online. And then eventually was like, like, we're not going to do this because I think what I see from organizers is they want to take what they know as an in-person word camp and put it online. And like, that just doesn't translate, right? Like, there isn't a hallway track in that scenario. There isn't people mingling, forming relationships. It is basically like an all day webinar. We all sit at our desks anyway all day. So sitting on the weekend at our desk is not something any of us want to do at this point. So we need to find some sort of innovation in this space. And it could be a million different things. That's why I love this post that Angela put up. But I think, you know, getting people to realize that planning an online word camp is a different thing than planning an in-person one. Like, from the start, it has to be a different mentality. Like, you cannot approach it as if I'm going to cram in a word camp, you know, just in some sort of an online format. It's just not going to be the same. So finding ways, shorter ways, you know, different ways for people to interact. I think that community building aspect while learning is really important. So, you know, maybe doing something where we're like, getting a smaller sort of like cohort of people together to go through a pathway together based on their interests might be something where not only are you educating, but you're also building study buddies, I guess, is the best way I can think of it. You know, like people who are going to help you continue to evolve and increase your skills over time after the event is over. That's what I get most out of a word camp, right, is like seeing people that you've seen before, like forming those relationships, and it draws people into the WordPress community because they're familiar with people. They're forming those relationships and those bonds are strengthening every time you see each other. So I think that's really the most important thing about, you know, having contributors be part of a project and continuing to be invested in and furthering not only the WordPress project, but their own learning for WordPress is, you know, feeling connected to the project or the people that they're meeting along the way. I love that idea of the buddy system. I know that I have retained such a close working relationship and friendship with so many of the people like WordCamp San Francisco 2013 Contributor Day. I'm still close with all of the contributors when we sat in that little lounge and worked on the program and I think giving people those bonds, that's a really, that's a great idea. Someone write that down. I love the, I love the buddy idea. I have also been thinking workshops are something that are usually like kind of like, oh yeah, and we'll throw in a workshop at a WordCamp, but this is kind of a phenomenal time to do workshops. They're one-off, they're shorter, there's more engagement. So you don't have to worry about that. How do you make community bonds part? I think those are not being utilized to their best advantage right now. I've been hearing a lot of good feedback on camps that, online camps that have chosen to do workshops as well as like having the WordPress 101 track because there's a lot more attendee interaction and I think that's the way that things should be going online. Has anyone worked with a camp that's done like a happiness zoom? So you can go in. It's kind of like that. I know one of the camps was planning to do it, but I didn't hear how it worked out. That should check in. I just finished a meet-up right before this. That was my happiness day. How did it go? When we were meeting, you know, in physical space and close to each other, we were doing it once a quarter. We had 19 people in the Zoom and I'm comfortable managing a conversation of 19 people in Zoom. Instead of us moving into breakout rooms, the person would share their screen and we would group solve the situation and that worked out very well. I've also attended conferences where there's a general presentation and then you break out into 20 minute breakout rooms where you've gotten the time for some interaction and stuff and I think that that helps a little bit with that loneliness factor as opposed to having somebody do a presentation, even though that presentation might be taking place where you could see the people. It just doesn't have the same level of interaction. Switching gears just a second. One of the things I see happening in Atlanta as a result of the distancing is concerning to me. Our word camps take place in the spring, so a word camp Atlanta did not take place and nor did we have time to switch to a virtual event. Our community is built a little bit differently than everybody else because that's just the way we grew. We probably have 16 different meet-ups in the Metro Atlanta area and everybody knows Metro Atlanta is geographically spread out. There are probably out of those 16 meet-ups. Maybe four of them are meeting online so I think our community at large is beginning to get distanced even though we can all sign up for everybody's meet-ups. So I'm just throwing that out there that our community is I'm feeling responsible to do something for our community to bring us together. In March I had come up with the idea of having meet-ups for meet-up organizers, for example, and we did one and it was fantastic and it was March the 12th that we went into lockdown the very next day. But I'm feeling something like that might help our community come together again as a community because chances are we will be online next April and we need to make sure our foundation is is solid. I mean Lord Camp Atlanta organizers are already meeting again and our conversation a week ago was much like what you're asking today. How can we reimagine this? What can we do to bring that sense of familiarity and closeness back into the experience? And one of our ideas that we're just kind of toying with is what if let's say for example the meet-up organizers came together in a hotel ballroom or some other large space where we ourselves could be distanced but the online view might be different for the attendees. They can see that there's real life people communicating in someone. So I don't know we're just toying with things you know you throw it out there and see if it sticks because as Brandon said no one no one I know wants to sit in front of their computer but our attendees aren't sitting in front of their computers all day long necessarily that is true yep you know but all of us who do this are in major league zoom fatigue yeah uh-huh so true yep yeah which I'll share one tip with you I learned today good and then I'll shut up no you're fine no I know you know you know me too well I will talk for days um I learned that if I right click my video when I'm on zoom I can hide my picture from myself I love it I never knew that until yesterday and I'm in love with that feature I learned it about two weeks ago it's very helpful for not staring at my own face being like why does she keep making that face yes but then I had put on speaker view as my view and then I was like whoa that's my tip for today I can hide my face from myself so with with Kathy having shared some things we're kind of at a crossroad we're at a fork in the road we have the opportunity to wrap this up around one hour which is a lot more digestible for people who are viewing it after the fact and means that we aren't seeing it in here for 90 minutes if there's still more we'd like to discuss we can continue but I I leave that up to you we just have we can continue this conversation or we can continue this conversation online and Kevin and I can kind of wrap this up what would y'all feel like doing well unfortunately I have to jump to another meeting for work I was not able to there you go so thank you so much anyway I'm gonna be pinging you after this okay okay all right bye they see meet everybody good to see you Michael all right so would we like to wrap up 60 minutes I know we do have our one more thing and we'll share one more thing but it was pertinent to what Kathy was saying anyway so okay I'm gonna take your silence as a yeah let's wrap this up and we can continue this conversation online and Kevin would you like to share or we might continue this conversation what our thoughts are yeah I think with everything that Brandon and Kathy said as we reimagine these camps and I feel like that's all I've been working on since March is not going bankrupt and how to reimagine these camps simultaneously Courtney must have the same fatigue and cammy one of the things that I see is that we really have to work with our camps and whatever the new events are called or whatever they are closer than ever so I really think that our mentors have to have their own real support network and we have to work closer together than we ever have so that you know one of the great things about a word camp to me is as different as word camp Phoenix was from Minneapolis from Boston Chicago New York they still had the same flavor and the same camaraderie so as we're working on all these events I want us to be able to make sure that we stay true to the program and I think that's very clear in that post so one of the things that we've been talking about in the we here is cammy and Kevin is have a proposal for a monthly zoom call for all mentors to get together and whether it's getting help just venting working on new ideas just venting whatever whatever really works I think having a place to do that would be beneficial so we wanted to bring that up here cammy anymore to you could say my my only addition to that is this this particular call was hosted in an incredibly US centric time because we were trying to find a time on Tuesday that worked for both Kevin and I so that we could share this with the Tuesday training program so I think that we would have to be something very similar to what we do with the community team chat where we have two versions on the same day in different different time zones but that's that's what's been Kevin and I keep having this conversation back and forth over to we really have to start those calls we really have to start those calls so this is kind of our way of saying hey do y'all want to have a call monthly with us yeah I mean yeah and I think that the timings could we could mirror the not the same dates in all but the same start times of the community chat so do it on the same day on the off weeks yeah yeah yeah that's fine I could see that yeah I would be once a month and then I think what are the I'd have to look up the times I know what they are for me but I don't know what they are universally but there are two times that do work yeah mm-hmm Kevin would you like to write that proposal or would you like how would let's we'll talk about this this is no longer this conversation um thank you all so much for joining us is there are there any last words you'd like to share before we say goodbye for there just thanks for putting this all together for sure I think the mentor problem program has definitely become something that's really helpful organizers so I appreciate uh all the all the planning and organizing where we're all doing together thank you for doing such a great job of taking it off in the first place Branson yeah absolutely yeah thank you all right I really appreciate you all putting your minds into this and sharing with the group and uh see you all see thanks