 similar to what we talked about yesterday about today we have different voices to it because we are joined by the Klaji I have Bishop Malakai Hezekia and Reverend Anthony Amos at my fur left yes and on my right it's Bishop Malakai Hezekia and they both work at East Africa Pentecostal churches and with the Bishop being the national treasurer of it. Kairi Winisana lovely to have you thank you with us you want to introduce yourself just a little bit in case there's something I've missed thank you Stephanie I'm Bishop Malakai Hezekiel I serve in East Africa Pentecostal churches as you have heard and I am the national treasurer our organization is within the country and also we have opened more branches in Tanzania and also Uganda by God's grace so our end of visit is at Meru but recently we are going to bring it to Nairobi because we have bought a lard within Nairobi and we thank God for that our organization was began by Nationally in the year 1953 so it's a old thing but we thank God for the grace that we have wow thank you amazing thank you very much and for you Reverend Anthony thank you so much good morning of yours I'm Reverend Anthony Amos working with Bishop Malakai okay yeah all right so welcome gentlemen we want to talk about sustaining a successful business and there's so many angles that we can take a look at maybe we can start with the church do you think Bishop let's let me start with you that the church should be in a position to run a business an enterprise yes I think the church learning a business is not a problem if at all it is going to be done in the right way because money on the church you cannot separate because when you have a business many maybe some of the members are going to be abroad in that particular place the income that is going to come is going to support the the church even in the progress of the evangelism and ministering fired wide so it's very very important when a church has a business okay yes didn't you think at some point maybe it might lose focus and you know we mostly know that the clergy are there to preach the gospel and and all that so we need at some points lose focus on that to the business I don't think so because we need to minister to the members or estuary jesus christ ministry was also meant to minister to the the members or estuary whereby he had to do the ministry or preaching the word and also feeding the people so if in the church we have poor people we have people who are in need sometimes we'll be able now if we have a business we can support the poor the the needy the ovals the widows I mean that will be done by the support from the business and as I have said if you are to do it we do it in the right way not the fighting the focus of the word all right and for you reverend what what are your thoughts on that are there any um you know red lights to it or is it just fine for for cheshire and enterprise actually it should be like that that's how it should be because I'll be so busy that we need money to support this work of the gospel and we just need to understand the grace that people are palating upon and we have a department in churches so there is no if a church is organized that a clergy will be diverted and lose focus from preaching and doing the work of the ministry it's all a matter of having department and competent people who do that kind of work okay yeah so that would be a good thing in the long run of course all right and the this perception that people have uh some people have that people around the church as a the business aside the entrepreneurial venture side you know having something that will generate income but people have the perception that some men of god uh are running the church itself as a business what do you think of this bishop uh that is wrong if you make it to be a business you are now doing it against the the word of god because you are there as a shepherd a shepherd will lead the ship to where these are green patches but if now you'd effect that that thing then the the most important uh thing which is willing the soul yeah and you make it to be a business that is wrong that is wrong that is very wrong we lose focus on what absolutely the church is mandated to do yeah and that is why the book of arts when there was some problem in the church the disciples decided to say let's assign some people for the work of the temples that we're gonna go out and do the work of the ministry so because as the the clergy we are going to win his horse but as he has said if we have people who are doing good the business we can assign them and that will be the right thing okay so that now the the the preachers or the clergy can continue preaching the gospel but they are overseeing the work of the business also overseeing the work of the business and the business me meaning that it's actually an actual business an actual enterprise aside from the church you know not getting money from the congregants themselves but having something running then and by people and Reverend you're smiling so there's a question that I want to ask something that uh you know in recent past or even now people are still discussing about the church being regulated what are your thoughts on that I'm for it I'm for it what are your reasons church should be regulated but now this we are seeing that the government cannot regulate church directly we know we have umbrellas we have umbrellas like NCCK National Congolese EAK and if churches can be regulated through those umbrellas then we can do away with this man of God okay yeah so how how how would you regulate via the umbrella for someone who doesn't maybe understand how that can happen if we have an umbrella for regulating the church how would that work you know they are losing legislation and for instance in Kenya a church must be consistent with that tone in general ministers of the gospel must be accepted by the government you know and we are also saying it is good even men of God to show the certificate and if possible from accredited universities or colleges so that we may kick out all these people you know preaching and then doing the work of the ministry is by calling it's a calling actually it's a gift but also we need educated people to do this work because there is no harm by going farther and do standing okay so when we are talking about legislation we should understand that they are loose and legislation that's unguiding these umbrellas and these are spiritual matters when we are talking about the spiritual matters government cannot understand cannot discern actually the Bible says that the spiritual matters understand by them that are in spirit so so we cannot go kicking looking you know and that's why we are involving now umbrellas because these umbrellas they are governed by men of God so men who understand the matters of the spirit and they will understand that is this one and does this one qualify you know it's the church preaching the sound doctrine you see but now when we come and I was telling some mother people somewhere that you saw when this man by Yisra Tungal and his jeez somewhere there when he was taken to the court he's not saying that now if he's not Jesus then show us the true Jesus and they would not produce the truth so it's here not there there is no case again there is no case again you see because these are matters of spirit so the umbrella would have disowned whatever this man is doing is long so and the umbrella now will over this ban to the government as a criminal you see yeah but now the government cannot attack church directly they cannot win the battle they can't win they cannot okay what's the reverence it's saying but at least men of God need some sort of accreditation from a school and but we have people saying you know and even in the Bible it's written that God uses anyone you know so it God decides to use someone who has no education but understand the things of the spirit knows the Bible and has this calling to preach so would that lock that person out simply because they can't afford to go to school but they want to minister I think it's good to have the calling but also it's good also to have scales the field that you are specializing on for example now a teacher will go to college so that he may be able to handle the students a doctor or a nurse will go to a college so that he may know how to deal with the patients what about the pastor the pastor needs us to go to college so that he may know how to define the word because it is not just by liberation it is also important to know what was met by the writer what he meant he said so if you apply it from the original you'll be able now to know why he said that why are people are mandaring the word it's because they are ignorant there is ignorant them they don't want to go to school they don't want to go to college because the Holy Spirit will teach them you'll teach them that which is in the word so you need to go understand it so I say it's very important for pastors also to get out and go and understand the word that is why Paul is telling Timothy it's handy to show yourself approved a workman with not okay defining the word of truth so we need to define it although Tomeo carry a lot of mail means a straight all right that's a new that's a new word I've learned today okay interesting so you are for the government regulating the church but not directly by having a body yes yes you know getting involved with the matters of the church yes in East Africa because of churches we are under eak so we we can we can they can regulate through that okay yes so there are already measures we have something yes we can walk with already yes all right and there's this thing before I feel like I'm almost they want him from the topic but we'll get into business but there's this matter that has been going on people talking about it Shakahola and we see the statistics every day of people being found and recently I think yesterday some people were being charged because they were being given food and they refused to eat the food completely and these are people that have been rescued from from Shakahola so you would expect these people to like some others have done to accept the food and to at least go back to sanity because clearly it's insanity and it's cult and all that but what what is it that these men do to such people that really changes their mind to that you know to that point that you believe it till death you know and you're ready to sacrifice your life for it and go down no matter what will be done to even if you the extent is being jailed so what what do you make of it before we go to let me tell you tell me human beings are created with a horror heart they need something to feel that vacuum which means everybody is waiting to see the results so these people who are in Shakahola their leader has given them solution to their problem sorry to say that but it is a negative solution because everybody is looking for solution in life so yeah he comes and he tells them now you need to go and see Jesus I don't know how I don't know but now it is a long doctrine yeah so it's very important to understand that the emptiness of man is looking something to feel that vacuum but now it's only that they are going going the wrong way okay Reverend do you think Bishop I look strange very well but you think that they could be a spiritual force behind it because I know there's you know that can happen but to a point that people are rescued and they still want to continue fasting and go and see Christ I believe that's after they've been educated and told that was a lie and everything but they still want to go ahead and see Christ through fasting do you could there be a spiritual force behind it is that more to it or is this the talk and the emptiness people have in their head all I see is of course behind every faith there is a spirit behind every faith what's over in belief even you there is a spirit behind that that is forcing you there is a Nepali need to continue pursuing that which you believe okay and it's too unfortunate that whatever they believed is long doctrine and the Bishop put it and so you know in this spiritual matters we talk of sacrifices we talk of and demonic whatever and whatever is happening there there are forces behind that because there is no way a super person like you super mind uh somebody like me educated okay so somebody comes and tells me that uh you know you have a problem and the way to solve this problem is and you fast until you die make sure a child fasts too your child your wife are you doing the same the one who is telling them to do the that he lies that he'll be the last time to do it doesn't make sense you see that that one is manipulation and taking advantage of people because they have problem and actually when somebody is in a problem everyone is looking for a way out from that problem and so that person is just taking advantage of that of those people and that's now where manipulation is coming in and those spiritual forces that we are seeing okay yeah all right now Bishop back to you again so how does someone an ordinary person or a Christian uh see the red flags to you know the this pastor false prophets and pastors that are out there to make a business out of the congregation by manipulating them as pastor Mackenzie did so how do you support that this is actually a false pastor for someone I know things of the spirit are designed by the spirit so it's it's a mature Christian probably that will help but someone who's new and you know they would just want to to know God and they're being manipulated by this false prophet how do you tell that this one is out to get my money yes is uh you know any kind of doctrine is measured by the word who does the one say concerning this prophecy or what does the Bible say concerning what this prophet is saying if it is not according to the word then it is actually out it is out so to know whether it is a wrong doctrine we've come to the Bible we see what the Bible says then we are able to discern this is a not a true prophet and that is why now people are now being manipulated because they they have their problem they take to the man of God but this man of God is not using the word because the word is the ultimate the standard the one is the foundation so if it's not by the word then yes it's but and I don't see I don't see where anyway the Bible where people are fasting up to it's not that so that's how you know yes actually okay to understand in the Bible there is no D and there is nowhere that Jesus used the same same method to heal 10 people with the same same method he healed a lot of blinds yes but someone told that your father's you know someone told that you know some I mean different methods but the same sickness but now what is happening today in our churches if I give you my phone and you are healed so I want to make it this now to become a doctor you see yes changing the miracle to a doctrine you know which is very wrong you cannot use a miracle to make it to become a doctrine you can't do that you can't say this water will heal you so you need to everybody to get water everybody to get and get oil everybody to get holy water everybody to get salt I mean there is something here whatever I mean there is nothing like that that's a false doctrine that is divination yes that is divination that is too long doctrine false one okay all right so now uh like uh diverting and now back to to business we have a lot of youths who uh looking for you know and not just students but canyons are looking for ways to get money and I think some of the people that are mostly uh in this doctrine false doctrine this cult were people who are looking who had suffered enough because they don't have anything so they just want to go to heaven they're tired of being in this earth and I believe the key problem could be finances so um in business how would you advise uh someone who's starting off you know and trying to get into business and how to maintain a successful business let me start with you bishop yes uh what I would say is that uh no matter how these are hard well it's very important to have a dream in life and having a dream then you need to start small as you progress so the problem that we're having within our country that we have a lot of people who are don't have jobs but I want to say you can use small things to create a job for yourself and it is going to grow because in any kind of a business we start with a dream then after the dream you now progress from that okay so just start with a dream yes have a dream and then from there start small start small small yes then from there you will progress okay and is that a place of the church in in helping out especially maybe the youth reverend um can we create uh can the church provide resources and support individuals who wish to create small business ventures perhaps oh yeah yeah those organized churches who normally do that and before they fund whatever the young people want to do they first take them for a training okay for a seminar and they advise them and they will allow you to express yourself and I have this plan I have this dream and that we help them to be somehow organized okay then we can fund them so and they make make it in this life make a living out of it look like I have some things yes yes I have some the in our organization established because of churches we have a circle whereby people put the money there and then we give them some loans we call it in Nuka circle I'm the chair for now so if the young people can deposit their money in their account they are able now to get loans we have given loans to many they have done a lot some have bought cars some have bought motorbikes some have bought I mean many things so I think it's very important if they can invest in some circle as little they can they can get they are there to grow and these will be right okay speaking of circles how what ways would you advise them uh the youth and people in business to to save up how good is the circle you know compared to just saving in the bank because you know I can save in the bank and get a loan but how different is it uh saving the circle is the loans are quick to access small deposits you can deposit 200 300 400 and then you get that 100 within no time but for the banks you will take a lot of time I mean many days before you get their own so people are just shifting to micro finance and also be sure I think you can tell them that the interest of if a lot oh yes also interest like now we give at one percent but this is now for the EAPC members and the pastors so one percent interest wow so comparing to now the banks oh you can't even compare you can't you can't now we are there now to build our young people women who need some financials men who need something so yeah okay and to you Reverend do you offer advice before giving giving out loans because some people get loans but they get it for the wrong reasons perhaps you know they get lost yeah that's why we're saying that we train them yes you know and we cancel them you know we identify them that this money will come for it european one or the other yeah so be careful and we are there to see that the mind that they hand the interest that they hand and they after that so it's not just to take money and just use it speaking of accountability what at what age is how accountable you know should they be or what measures of accountability should one put in place when they want to start up a business or maintain a business you know at home begins with the plan as the bishop seemed that they need to be organized then after that you know we will see this person how keeper poise he threw his safety yeah because if he can afford to save and they continue so we are there to watch now we have given this person the loan he's able to pay we are there and by this we are making him to be more accountable yeah responsible knowing that there is something that he's doing there and there are people who are watching often yeah okay very interesting and bishop um being that you've been in this for quite a long time what advice would you give business owners uh on how to