 Today, we're joined by Eugene Puneer of the Breakthrough News from the United States and we're going to be talking about the protests that have been taking place in the country for nearly two weeks now after the death of George Floyd, after the killing of George Floyd by four police officers. Eugene, thank you so much for joining us. So happy to be here. Really an honor. Yes. So this has been a historic series of protests. In some senses, it's interesting because, across the world also because it comes at a time when people were thinking, what is the future of resistance after COVID? And we see that resistance is very much alive in every sense of the word. But also because this is a very unprecedented mobilization, maybe the biggest in decades. And you've been traveling to many cities in the country. You've been to Minneapolis where George Floyd was killed. You've been to some other cities. You've talked to the families of victims. You've talked to the protesters. So could you first start out by giving us a sense of what was happening on the ground while you were there to think of the protests? Well, thank you for that question because I think it's so important from the mainstream American media has been what they've been putting out, I should say, for worldwide and domestic consumption. The Reverend Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr. once said that riots are the language of the unheard. And that's basically what I saw on the ground in all these different places, especially in Minneapolis. I mean, one of the things that was consistently expressed to me from people on the ground in Minneapolis was a sense of feeling seen and heard. And it may sound strange, but you know, I'm getting these long histories of people of so many victims of police violence. People are talking to me about the district attorney saying this guy's been around for 30 years. We've been dealing with this for so long. But Minneapolis, the Midwestern United States city, it's known as sort of a majority white area. So it's not really something people think about in a large part of the country as a place where something like this could happen. And I talked to a guy at the George Floyd Memorial, a beautiful memorial has been set up for him where people are bringing flowers and writing messages. And he just said, yeah, people thought that nothing could happen here. But now people see like what's going down, like who we are and what's happening. And I think that sense of being heard from working class communities, especially black working class communities in Minneapolis was powerful. And on the streets, you know, a couple of weeks ago on Friday night or a Friday night, a couple of two Fridays ago, we were there on the ground. And as much as some of the images with things burning seemed chaotic. When you were there on the ground, it was it was very different. I mean, first and foremost, between the protesters themselves and the people there, amazing. Bonhami, I mean, every person you saw, how you doing, do you need anything? Can I help you? And, you know, we were in this huge march with this car caravan. And I can't tell for sure, but it seemed like people were calling people and telling them, like, pick people up and come join this, because cars just kept joining it coming primarily from the black community. There's a large Somali American and Somali immigrant community in Minneapolis. Many people, so I'm saying six, seven, eight people hanging out of cars, playing music as people are marching alongside them. And from different communities, the Native American community, which is sizable in Minneapolis, the black community, the Somali community, many, many white people from the area in solidarity. And it actually felt not chaotic at all in a way. I mean, things were happening. Yes, I saw some cars set on fires and buildings, although just to note, even that was a little miss sort of, you know, mistaken. It wasn't as if every single thing is burning. I don't know if there's any strategy to it at all. But I mean, it certainly was around the edges of the event. And in and of itself, you could feel this sense almost of catharsis and an angry catharsis, a frustrated catharsis, but a feeling that finally the grievances were being aired. Finally, the grievances were being heard. And the final thing I'll say about that is that's what I heard from the mothers of victims of police brutality. We're able to attend an amazing press conference and all of them to a person basically said, this is what we tried to tell people that if nothing happens, if there's no justice in these cases, it's going to boil over. This anger is going to boil over and people are getting exactly what this system has sowed as we've pointed out over many years. So, you know, it was very, very heartfelt, very poignant, a lot of solidarity, a lot of anger. So a big ball of emotion in many ways. But I think bottom line, really, it was a lot of people who are marginalized in our society who whose voices were heard, maybe in sort of a spontaneous, not 100 percent directed way. But those voices were trying to come to the forefront after so many years of being held down. Absolutely. And to continue on one of the aspects you mentioned, despite the fact that this has been a country-wide protest, despite the fact that there have actually been protests across the world internationally and in solidarity, and most importantly, despite the justice of the cause, we do see that the police across states has continued to be brutal, it has continued to be repressive. The latest numbers say over 10,000 people have been arrested since the protests began. And you've seen many instances of some of the extreme cruelties, people again pushing people on the ground, very violently beating them. So on the other hand, there's also been reports that the Minneapolis Police Department may be itself defunded. So do you think that this is a proposal that is likely to gain strength over time and lead to substantial changes? I think that it will gain strength. I think where it goes is interesting. I mean, the defund the police demand has sort of two elements that the people on the street really mean we need to start talking about how we move away from policing. I mean, one sort of element that's not being very reported is the critique on the ground of what's happening is systemic. It's very much in vain with I think what a lot of people have seen in the United States with the growing popularity of socialism, Bernie Sanders, where people are basically saying, you know, quote unquote crime, all these issues that we have the police for murders, rapes, assaults are all more deeply rooted in the system. And we have to start, you know, actually addressing those causes. So we need less police. So that is catching on and it's growing. Now, under the pressure of this, we're seeing people say, like in Minneapolis, the nine council members, which if they do vote would be veto proof. So it would pass to significantly strip money. We've seen the NYPD say they're going to start to shift money. And it seems like there's sort of an attempt now by the system, recognizing that the police budget is so bloated that the role of the police is dubious at best. I mean, you know, when you look at the actual scientific studies of whether or not policing is making a big impact on many of these issues of public safety, you know, it's a it's a mixed bag. Oftentimes it's not so recognizing that that they may try to just trim a lot of the fat, so to speak, and say that they've done this. So it's going to be an interesting tension, I think, in the movement itself and we'll speak very heavily, I think, to how this plays out, moving forward at a time where now all of the major brands, all of the politicians, everyone is trying to say, I'm on board with this. We're with this, this sort of battle over the sort of ideological substance of this, which is going on, I think, very heatedly right now, is going to have a big impact in terms of the shape of this, because the number of people who are defending the police is relatively low. And it's sort of it's the sort of hardcore law and order. And even Trump is out here trying to pretend as if, you know, he wants to see some level of change. So even him, given his odious behavior, is recognizing you can't be 100 percent against them. We're definitely seeing the police continue to be brutal. We're seeing police unions continue to push this semi-fascist rhetoric. But I think in some ways that seems so untenable, the idea that there's no change, that the course of the struggle really will be a struggle over whether it's going to be sort of cosmetic change or sort of real thoroughgoing change. But a lot of people are radicalizing very quickly. I mean, I've been surprised how many people I've talked to who are just sort of, you know, people who are supporting Joe Biden, kind of moderate people, not Bernie Sanders supporters who are saying, you know, we got to do something drastic here because this is a huge problem. So it's really shaking the political scene here. Right. And one of the key examples of that, of course, was also the fact that especially over the weekend, and this is some 10 days into the protests, we saw mass rallies close to 100,000, 50,000 in many cities and even smaller protests in many smaller towns where there's not maybe too much of history of these kind of movements taking place also. So how do you see maybe in the next couple of weeks, the possibilities of these protests going forward? And what is the kind of organizing that is taking place? I think we're definitely going to continue to see large mass marches. It seems the energy is definitely there. I mean, I haven't seen anything approximating this since the lead up to the Iraq war in 2002 and 2003, where there were many large marches. But, you know, this is actually bigger than that in my estimation, having been involved in both and in some ways more significant to have, you know, Black Lives Matter rallies in the heart of clan territory in Texas. I think it is a huge thing and to have white people there. I mean, that in and of itself, you know, is really indicative. I think we're going to continue to see that. I think a lot of the organizing that's going on is now happening on a couple levels. One is to continue to push it and do these large mass marches in Philadelphia, which I had a chance to witness where there's 100,000 people. There's another one that's happening ongoing. I think there's a sort of secondary level where people are also looking at how did we use nonviolent civil, how do they use nonviolent civil disobedience along the lines of the civil rights movement, perhaps to tie up commerce, to tie up streets, to try to basically find ways to just disrupt the status quo. I think most people generally realize that without some level of societal dislocation, both historically and just obviously, you know, it can be difficult to get these people to move. There's sort of a third level that is I think not moving as quickly, but we're seeing some legislative moves, and I think there is some organizing. I don't think there's a lot of hope in that, but I think there is organizing on the ground to try to shape the nature of the demands and sort of referencing back what I said earlier to at least if there's going to be a push by politicians to have some accountability to what people on the ground want to see rather than them defining for themselves what defund the police to what police reform really means. So I think that's happening as well. And then I'd say on the most general sense, what we're seeing is it's both a renewing of existing organizations and the creation of new organizations from people who are spontaneously organizing, because also I think there's a huge recognition that racism in America cuts across so many different issues. Some of this is really about COVID-19. I think for many people, the quarantine and the lockdown and the disproportionate death of black people, then to see Ahmed Arbery, then to see Breonna Taylor, then to see George Floyd, was just like, if we don't rise up against racism, it's going to kill us or kill our neighbors and friends one way or another. So there's a lot of desire, I think, to bring issues together. So I think socialist groups are going broad political organizations that deal with three or four issues are growing. There's a lot of kind of, as we'd say in the United States, multi-issue organizing happening where I think people are looking to make the connections and not just silo it off. So it's a very, very hopeful time. Every organization I've talked to doing any political work is telling me that one of their biggest challenges right now is just responding to people who are looking to get involved. Right. Thank you so much, Eugene, for talking to us. Thank you so much for having me. That's all we have time for today. Keep watching People's Dispatch.