 Hello everybody if it's Wednesday, it's Warhammer and that must mean it's time for another episode of Warhammer weekly Joining me as always is my co-host Tom here to celebrate our seventh anniversary and You know, you've been with me the whole time Tom. How's it feel? Hello friends. It's been a wonderful seven years and I am happy to be here. It's a wonderful Hey, what's our anniversary? Is it like wool or something? I Was told well, I definitely want wool Yeah, I What am I gonna do with copper? No, yeah, I don't want copper pieces in D&D. I don't want copper right now True. There you go I'll just I'll just shout it out right from the top Thank you to both Stone Monk for the original image and then to Chuck Moore for this awesome Just quick change to our our graphic for our seventh anniversary strength hammer is a Hero amongst us as always. So thank you. Happy seventh anniversary Tom It's been great sharing all these years with you. I look forward to many more If you If you like the show, why not just hit like right now Why not just assume it's gonna be an awesome show and hit that like button just just windmill slam it right on the top Seventh anniversary boom hit that like subscribe if you haven't all those kind of fun things All right, we have got a slam bang show for you tonight. We're gonna talk LVO we're gonna talk the LVO games. We're gonna talk the release. We're gonna talk the roadmap We're gonna talk FAQs. This is all gonna be spread out and we're even to do a little deep dive into history I've got a couple things. I didn't tell Tom about planned as probable So Here we go. I have more I have more things that I had to prepare for visual graphics for this show that I've ever done in the history of this entire show That's impressive. First of all and second of all, let me just tell you you could have put it on the document And I wouldn't have seen it anyways. Yeah, I understand that I understand that So let's get to the news of course up front Let's start with the no rumor engine. Correct. There is no rumor engine this week I looked and just didn't do it this week. They're like nah, we give up We don't have any more models. We're all out of Eldar and chaos space briefs to show you pieces of And we're not releasing anything else for a while. So just get into it. Welcome to a welcome to the current reality so Know that Well in order you actually have the LVO recap. Do you want to do that first or the previous I I do I want to do the LVO thing first, but I want to do the games first Okay, let's turn we can we can get through this We're not gonna have about them stormcast How about them stormcast if you mean cities with a thousand 40 points of stormcast. I mean, yeah, I mean, I'm talking about stormcast units. Sure. Yes, exactly First off, I brought up a little presentation here Credit to the people you see on screen And of course to SJ arcade First and foremost amongst them who put this all together if you want to see a very deep dive discussion on this You should have joined all of us on Hey, whoa, twitches twitch channel I was there watching as well and it was fantastic. Hey, whoa, twitch when you need all the best analysis combined with Hat changes That's that's your guy. That's your go-to guy and one of the sweetest voices. He's just got a great voice for this But anyways, they put together this incredibly deep dive on the data. We're not gonna do all of it We're just gonna talk about some of it Tom Because we don't otherwise we'd be here. This would be the whole show But I wanted to talk a little bit about what we saw at LVO. So first off Here was your standing after five games. So this is before the finals. Let's lay down a little groundwork here LVO is a Technically a five round tournament that cuts To a top eight so the top eight people after five rounds then go on this on the Sunday to play a single elimination You know semi-final blah blah blah progression. Okay, four than two than whatever Four winners two winners one winner, okay so the So this is after The five rounds of normal play like what we would consider the normal tournament. Yeah, you with me Okay, I just want you to know no one can actually see that graphic with any of the names on it Because it's it's small. Well, this is where we are. I don't know what to tell you I can't make it bigger that people can see it if they have a big screen. I guess it's stormcast Eternals Cities of Sigmar finisium with the all Phoenix list not using any Nonsense from stormcast. This is just Phoenix's in finisium with assassins and a scourge runner chariot Amazing in second balls balls right there my personal hero of the event Shout out to Scott are who I think is in the chat right now who ran this event by the way Yeah Amazing to and grant all around great person living cities in third place with a thousand sixty points of stormcast In it and nine hundred sorry thousand forty and nine hundred sixty points of cities A blood-tooth siren jaws with cabbage and pigs an ogre ma tribes blood gullet player with Yeti's in Fifth play or sorry in sixth place night haunt Tom with Nagash in the emerald host just like you like it in seventh place and Or an eighth place. Sorry. There you go And and sorry or seventh and then the soul-blight grave lords of your coast dynasty Zombies Gorsel often a mega says a mega gargant and a hundred and twenty zombies In eight years. There we go That was your top eight So this was just to blow through this quickly the semi-finals were savage gains the Gorsel of a hundred and twenty zombies big drug for kick a Like madness beat the oops all dragons Yeah, the finisium took out the emerald host. So there's your enemy Tom They were like nah, not dog. I ain't about that mortal wound life. I don't care what you got son Here like that's literally what I'm painting right now is those these two armies. Yeah, yeah So the finisium proves themselves power a powerhouse. I love this. I just I cannot love this enough The living city with the large storm cast contingent. I should say they also had to rally event dense the best dense The the living storm cast list. Yes took out the ogre player Sad this was Gavin remember this name Their names are up here. I should say their names because it's important. These are all these are all great players Everybody who's in this top eight is obviously an amazing player. Yeah And then lastly Noah With the blood toofs got beaten by mergonck who we've had on the show from the storm keep great great dude And a very very good player running a storm cast list that doesn't look anything like what you would expect it to be like Yes, there are some long strikes in there, but no dragons Just a bunch of annihilators of grandhammers ready to go do some mean work So way to go there The next one was power in numbers So this is that we're down to the final four now as it were Yet again the soul blights grave lords player with the Vircos all those zombies and a mega I mean it was just so much so much a DPS check right took out mergonck sadly And then the Phoenix player goes down, which is Jeremy to Gavin the mostly storm cast Cities player. Yeah, that brought us to the final the championship match feral for a Which was which saw Gavin take the game basically at the top of two when he played into the double and Brought down all of the all the all that meat and just went to town Just went to town Eat some zombies. Yeah, I mean when he you know, you like it I watch so on his wargamer streamed the final game through Joe Crier our buddy Joe Crier who was doing it on his phone Here's what I gotta say. I've gone for the win This was the some of the best coverage. I've seen of a game was just like I make fun of Joe Crier Relentlessly because he deserves it, but Joe did a fantastic job Yeah, and Yeah, and it was awesome like honestly, this is how I want games covered I just get somebody one of those selfie sticks turn the camera around and call it a day Like at all the top like honest wargamer Rob, you've over invested in technology He has all these different cameras that can zoom and all this stuff like yes travel this setup Not dog just travel with at iPhone. That's all you need because you can just be like Yeah, correct He would just be like Joe walk around the table to the other side and Joe would just do that And we could be like you'd be like zoom in on that thing Okay That's that's a good call It was actually I wasn't because the top-down View has never been a comfortable way for me to watch warhammer. That's not how I look at Warhammer, right? Yeah, I look at it from this point of view like from my eye line. Yeah, the two-thirds angle. Yeah, and that's like I want an isometric Diablo two view of the table and that's what I got So there you go. So congratulations to Gavin amazing win for as much as we joked about the thousand points of Of storm cast I mean it was it it's a very powerful list and very cleverly constructed Between all the crossbowmen Dense like I just like a lot of what he had here It's a great list. So here's some interesting stats top. There's the final standings all told Obviously the living cities list on the top Vierkos in second Murgonk in third and the Phoenix list in fourth and then so on from there I'm not gonna cover. This is really nice. SJ arcade went and tracked all their games So what was their road to victory like all the games they played through? I'm not gonna get through all this because there's too much. I want to jump to these stats He put together at the end Which is this you ready for these stats Tom these blew my mind To me the highest ranking LRL player was 54th place. I heard I heard LRL did not do well Okay There was no dock in the top 10, but they did show up in 12th place. It's okay So still it's still still there still pushing toward the top. Yeah, there was no seraphon in the top 10 That was Rob's call to take the tournament. So Swing and a miss 16th place was the highest for seraphon still respectable. Yeah, no legion of the first prince until 85th I don't think I don't think it's an American thing like I Honestly, I think it's a handful of players in the UK, you know spruke in that score I played a legion of first prince today and I was like Okay Like I got a place on No, you know John. Okay. No, I played some local awesome local folks. Hmm So yeah, I just I'm not I'm not convinced Yeah, I mean it's There are some strong American players It's just yeah, it's just it's a very finicky list and yes, I'm aware my dog is somewhat whining I'm sorry. My wife just got home. We're all gonna have to put up with this until she comes to get them This is the world we live in There were only two blades of corn players in the entire tournament Hats off to you. Yeah, it's full credit. I think there was two scaven players as well. So Oh Yeah, yeah, absolutely to Scott's point like 16th out of 177 is still a very respectable showing like absolutely I don't want to I in no way want to besmirch the dock or Seraphon player It was just a statement that they that those two are classically seen as some of the big bad I was in the meta and neither of them placed in the top hard in the top 10, so Here's a fun breakdown for you, Tom, you're ready for this one. This is all the armies Okay, so this is the top 50 breakdown and the top 25 20% of the armies in the top 25 were stormcast Eternals. I can't imagine why okay 4% means you have one list obviously like if you're in the top 25 like if you're a 4% you're one list Yeah in the top 50 Stormcast still 20% Hello dear, are you doing okay? I am confident that more than 60% of the time When you talk about stormcast, I don't care. There you go. That's fine. I love you dear Can you please take your barking dog? Please? No, no, thank you. Yeah, it's raining not even barking whining sure, okay All right, so 20% stormcast Okay, the doggos are gone now. Thank you everyone. I hope you enjoyed the little dog interlude Hit like for dogs, I guess I don't know That's a strong percentage man 20% the fact that that maintains into the top 50 is crazy Yeah, like that is a Whack-a-doo stat in my in my estimation. It tells me something is not working, right? It's something well and and so here's here's the question and you said that like that's the breakdown of stormcast like What you're not taking into account? Is what percentage of your cities was stormcast? Because we had a city's army when That was half stormcast. Yeah, sure like how much of that COS 12% has is heavily reliant on stormcast Yeah, right. Yeah, like they're riding on the backs of dragons and fulminators So like clearly not the Phoenix the Phoenician guy, but yes who again is our hero Yeah You ready for this one Tom boo boo This is the Grand Alliance breakdown Okay Yeah, this one this one knocked me off by chair. Here we go. Oh order Order of the top 25 64% were order armies and then it went, you know, three three three from there So everybody was bitching that I've heard about the fact that we have Five of what five in the next six books are no, I'm sorry for the next six books Are order three three half Half we'll talk about it in the road It's half Okay, um Regardless, no, you're right. It is four. I'm sorry. It is four. Yeah, exactly four and so like yeah or order In general there are more order factions than other like sure like yes There are more like of the armies there are more order armies than any other army But it shouldn't be 60% of the top, you know, it's not 64% of the armies are order. Yes. That is not correct Correct. So yes, that is the challenge there You know as a point of fact, right you're talking about two three four five six seven eight nine There are nine out of the 25 our order armies. I'd actually go count real quick Order no nine out. Well, I'm saying in the of the current armies or 25 armies Oh, you're you're saying the actual percentage, right nine of those 25 are order Right, you jump to the top 50. It doesn't change that much 57% Yeah goes down slightly Mainly because chaos and destruction chew up a little in death. So I mean Basically No, no, all right. No, that's LVO. There you go with that out of the way Let's now move on to talk about the LVO Where you want to do the LVO reveal next? Yeah Mike Davis said first of all hi Jake dog, I will tell your wife that absolutely Secondly Mike Davis said this that the statistic is the opposite of all the fluff Yeah, exactly in the fluff like orders on their heels They barely eke out an existence in this hard scrabble world where chaos Reigns and death is around every corner, but on the tabletop Is just punching nerds What's up? What's up kids? I mean the reality is this we are in the age of sigmar and The bastion the bastions of order have indeed taken root and this is the fruit of that The cities of sigmar are taken names Yeah, okay, let's talk reveals Here we go So I brought this guy up first How about them ghosts? Well before we get to ghosts, we got to talk about a 40k thing tom since it's tangentially irrelevant to us Yes Uh The full where's uh, alex asks, where's the full version of that presentation? It's on hey, woe twitch's twitch channel if you go check it out. He goes through it in detail We got to talk about this avatar cane tom because it's just cool as And look that this is a perfectly valid aos model. That's a thing It's fine acid. No. No. No, it's not it's not a perfectly acceptable Aos thing. You want to know why I'm ready tom. Why? Because that that unit is stupid Well, I whatever you think of it Sort of normatively I suppose It's A real model that's in aos. You can play an avatar of cane solo And I will grant you that right now It might not be that Good in the overall army. It's not bad. It's just not good to the standards of daughters of cane Yeah, but how big is that? Is that like a hundred mil round? He's he's big ish. Who cares who cares like one of those like v-shaped Exactly This is tom. Look this guy or rio di genaro avatar of cane. It's this guy every time. Okay Sure, sure. I mean, I can't I can't argue with that. There we go. Thank you Uh, I hope I honestly hope this is just when they use in the new doc book I hope this is the reason for that. We'll talk about this in a moment I hope this guy is just the reason for the new doc book and they're like just go buy that thing Just here. It's way better now. It's awesome. He woke up all the way Knock yourself out go nuts They said he's on an 80 mil by the way. So there you go I mean, I he could be awesome with a head swap He has multiple different heads. Yeah, I know there are multiple different heads Because like one of them is I think the full on like spartan mohawk, right? One of them is the the spartan mohawk. One of them is the the unhelmeted head. Yeah. Yeah Yeah Okay So anyways, we had to talk about that 40k thing because it's it's cool and I really dig this model like a lot a lot a lot I mean, it's fine. All right now this thing now. Let's talk about these ghosty boys, tom so uh The arena of shades I think rob called this a fomo box and I like that term. So I'm gonna call them that too the fomo boxes Uh, as in like the fear of missing out box Right, but that's but that's not even a thing because they just announced with the new fire slider box The individual heroes are going to be available, which is good. That's a good thing. Yeah, absolutely We'll get there. So right, but they're these sort of limited boxes. Whatever we want to call them Right We have daughters versus Sure Daughters versus ghosts. Okay. These are two things that you have more love of than I do. I like daughters. I don't care about ghosts Talk to me about this box. Tom. What did you think when you saw this box? Uh, there's one half of this box that is an amazing value In one half of this box that I'm going to trade or sell away Okay And here's the deal. Do you want to add any more to that? No, I mean, see here's the deal like for anybody that actually has night haunt What you'll notice when you look across this box is this is like ignore the new units Right that are in this box, which will do me And ignore the heroes and ignore the archery unit, right? Like which are like that's a real Question on the cross booze. Yes as they're called the cross booze the reality is is that The night haunt box is an amazing value Because never had we had have we had any of these units In a bundle Okay Like I recently purchased a bunch of chain gas like two boxes of chain gas because I couldn't get them any other way Right like and like out and those was like 40 dollars for a hero and two stupid models Um now you get them in this bundle, which is awesome The fact that you can get blade guys in this bundle is amazing on top of a new unit itself Like I'm gonna get three of these Okay, so we're hard in on this Like it's like because Again, I don't have any blade guys and so that gives me a full unit of blade guys It gives me 12 cross across booze. Um, and you know, I don't need the other stuff, but I'll just sell it It'll be fine. Um Daughters though Like for me, it's just not enticing Um, first of all the doom fire are terrible models. I don't care if you like them. It doesn't matter. They're bad Like I I just straight converted them And it's it's five dudes on horses and a daughters of cane army Understood Okay, we'll start there. Um, and then like I just have more canary and witches than I I could ever need And so like and none of that is meta Pushing like you don't need lots of any of that stuff right now in the back. It's just doesn't Like that's not where that's not what is good in daughters. Now that could change with the new book We don't know what the new book is gonna have um, but in general, uh I love the night haunt side I'm I'm neutral on the daughter's side just because I don't need any of it and like the doom fires Which you don't ever see bundled with anything else in general. I don't like the uh, I don't like them as models So I'm just straight gonna get rid of you know, all of it Sure Okay, well, let's zoom in on these heroes because there are some new heroes So first off we have obviously we saw little images of a teaser of this guy at the beginning of the year This is our ghost reads book right here Uh, so what do you think of this dude? What do you like this guy? Uh, he's fine I think he's pretty amazing. I don't know why he's got three arms, but I'm Yeah, that's what I don't like is that it like it feels too much like they're emerging the aesthetics from OCR OBR into night haunt with like the shaped like bone stuff and then like the weird mishaping mishaping ghosts like I don't know I just Um, and then on top of that I look at his color scheme and the reason why They have This weird transition from like green to white is because they actually don't have any good delineated Like unlike the other ghosts The way that this has actually been sculpt sculpted. He's not wearing a shawl. He's naked. Yes He's naked and so there's just this weird incentive And so like I can already see looking at this guy. I'm gonna have a painting problem Just because of like how they've sculpted this guy compared to all the rest of their ghosts so I don't know like he's fine like I know a lot of people like him and cool Um, but like I like cruel gaffes better than him if you're like talking about extra heroes that look awesome. Okay Uh What is this guy tom? What do you think he is? six wound spellcaster Six wound spellcaster that has uh, actually, you know what? I don't even think he's a spellcaster No, I don't know maybe he has candles and a lot of a lot of bookkeepers are not spellcasters, but He also has a lantern. So Yeah, no, I see that. Yep. No, I think that he is a six wound Caster that will um that will do that will have some type of cursing um, I think what he will do is he will write uh, he will you'll name a hero and um They will suffer you'll roll uh d6 in the hero phase on a two plus. They'll take a d3 mortals And that'll last until they die and then you choose another hero. Okay, just writing people putting people's name in the book Just like a death note thing Yes, got it. It'll be something like that. That's what like that's what I'm guessing just from the fluff decks and stuff like that I have no leaks. I don't know Sure, I mean a lot of book people it depends if you've got a scroll Not a spellcaster if you've got a book often a spellcaster. So depends. No, it's true. It's true. Okay Cross booze What are the cross booze stat line gonna be tom these come five in a unit with a little standard bearer guy? So, uh, tell me about the this is all we don't know this by the way. This is all conjecture in case that's not clear We're just guessing. I hope that's obvious But what are the cross booze stats? What do they shoot tom? What's this? What's this? What's this shooting profile on the cross booze look like? They're clearly semi elite five in a unit I think it'll be uh Four's and threes neg one rend one They do sixes on mortals and units can't benefit from cover Four's and threes neg one rend one damage more sixes or mortals and the unit can't benefit from cover. Okay Yeah, and you know what I'll even go one farther and I'll say that um, they're actually It's uh the six it sixes to wound that they proc the mortals not sixes to hit. What's the range? Um, I think it's 18 inches sure and um, I think that they probably have a movement of six And they're probably two attacks model Okay, so two shots at 18 inches fours and threes neg one one damage sixes to wound or immortal Yep, and there are five up save one wound each And they're gonna be a hundred points Okay, all right. That's an authoritative call. I like it. Let's see how it turns out. I mean, I'm like I'm just I'm literally making this up on the fly Yeah, it's good How about this lady? How about our uh our doc new hero with with one of the biggest? Uh Sort of rocks that we've yet seen a hero standing on she is way up on that rock Uh, she is way up on that rock. Uh, I don't know She she I'm not asking for stats. Just what do you think first off? I think she looks great. I mean, I think that she's I think she looks great I think she's basically like a slaughter A sister's a slaughter hero Yes, I think she's she's in that she has the sister slaughter mask So clearly she's related to them in some way because as I originally said when I predicted this when we saw a bit of this model The preview and a bunch of people poo pooed me and was like no, it's not going to be a sister's slaughter hero No, it is then you're right. Like I mean, that's exactly what it is um, thank you I was going to look at so the name of our current daughter's Things I think we talked about this right is we have a hag queen. We have a slaughter queen. All but this is a slaughter hag No, they gave her name already. She's like the hexatrix or something like that. I don't remember exactly It's something like that do Gladly I don't know it's it's something around that space Yeah, it's fine. She looks great I love my only problem is her face Okay, which face her her normal face the the non-helmeted face. Yep I I never liked the sister's slaughter helmets. I never use any of them. I think they look stupid I definitely did because I didn't have to paint hair then I put hair on everybody because it's what makes models look cool um She my my issue is she seems very taciturn She's super chill about being in the middle of this battle You know, a lot of the daughters seem pretty upset emotional or or angry or something They have Uh, yeah, there you go. Gladly atrix, you know, like in other words, they they they seem like they care Some degree that they're in a fire Yeah, like they're into it Yeah, but she's not Yeah, like my attitude and so I made a comment about me being not being excited about her like my attitude is what's on her face Yeah, she's just like Cool Yeah, I'm here. Yeah Do nothing so How about this guy? Well, we also got to talk about a Horus heresy thing. Tom. Did you think we were going to talk about a Horus heresy thing? We are on this show Because we're going to talk about cabanda homie Uh, I mean he's all he looks great Um, what size base do you think he's on though? I don't know. I don't know. I don't care. It doesn't matter He looks like he's kind of on the same oval that the regular bloodthirsters are If you look in the preview article for this it literally says Use this is cabanda could also be used as a bloodthirster in your 40k armies or in your blades of cord army like they're straight up Trying to push this for aos as well like they just said yep. He's good for aos Here's the link. Check out what blades of corn is all about I mean he looks great Yeah Yeah, he does He's by far the best-looking bloodthirster we have Are you kidding me over here? That guy's amazing Now, I don't know if he's gonna be resin or plastic. That's my only concern Yeah, like I could I could see myself having like a like a four bloodthirster army I'm in for this guy Um Oh, very nice. They said that the dude will have aos rules. Cool. You actually get cabanda rules. That's cool. That's super cool Uh, does he remind me of the archvillain demon? No, because he doesn't have a bunch of crap all over him. That's inexplicable Um, he he has like logical things Um, that's not a slam on the archvillain demon. I have one. I painted one. I like it It's just as per most 3d sculptors they like Hmm People need to wheel it back. That's all I'll say stop stop with the texture for no reason every every 3d sculptor I see operating right now with a patrion is afraid of smooth space Just let a muscle be a muscle At any rate. Oh, it's cool. They said it was resin on the stream. Okay, great. I missed that part. I'm sorry everyone So it's fine. They're their current resin has been fine. Um, but he looks amazing. So I'm in I like him He does look nice. Yeah, cool new blood thirst remodel Uh, good good good. Okay so Yeah, I mean come on now And it doesn't matter what base he's on obviously we're just going to put him on whatever base we need to the the You know, thank you. Noops. Yes. Noops has said negative space. That's right. A lot of 3d sculptors fear negative space Uh, what's going to be the price on this guy that we don't know. I mean, I imagine decently expensive So $200 You said $200? Yeah, 210. He's four. Oh 210. He's forged rolled resin. So he could be quite expensive. Who knows? We'll see All right, and that's pretty much lvo Uh, yeah, there you go Yeah So, yeah, um, but it's not Okay In the preview announcements Of like things coming. Yes. Oh like they like four days three days two days one day There was a silhouette Uh-huh. That was very clearly defined Okay Do you remember what that was are you talking about the ironclad? Yes, there was a ko ironclad Silhouette and we got no information beyond The preview teaser You know the people who put that together in the marketing department just look for cool art assets, right? But no, but they were using shadows of like the the things that they were going to announce and it was just the boat It wasn't a silhouette They just needed they had negative space in their announcement and was like cool What kind of neat little art assets do I have and somebody looked here and said oh need a little boat I'll put a little boat in there because it's delivering you the news. There you go That's what it was Tom It meant nothing Don't do this to me I'm it meant nothing It's just they have a list of art assets they can use That's it That's all it was Sorry, they're killing me over here Like I work for the marketing people. I know how they are I I stayed up and watched that show because I wanted to know Like I was a ko over here There's a boat And I got to the end and went What no no boat No, no boats Like I didn't know if it was like It just it was so disappointing No, like when you're a marketing person you don't you have to fill the space with interesting things that grab people's eyes And you have a bunch you have a folder of your art assets you can use And they just looked in that folder that one looks good. Boop. Perfect fits right on there Clock it a little bit that way done It was so disappointing It's no different than any icon I've used that would be like somebody looking at my marketing document that I put together For a professional thing and being like well, he used a a little pile of coins So I must get money out of this software. No No, I just used a little pile of coins Okay, all right So there you go, uh demonic teddy they missed the boat. There it is There it is They did indeed So we got this this elvio reveal. It was whatever it was. I I too was up I only the reason I missed the cabanda resin was honestly because they showed him This is about maybe 130 when he came on the screen a.m I had an early meeting the next morning And I was like cool got it. He looks awesome. I'm a buyer night So I didn't listen to them talk about it at all Yeah Looks good though. Yeah, but at any rate then somehow Tom we thought Well, it's over That's all they're gonna do They're gonna talk about this and then all of a sudden Three days later seemingly No reason whatsoever four days later whatever it was some very short amount of time later Yeah, we get an article That's about the roadmap and that's gonna be our main topic tonight. We'll get there. So we're gonna talk about the roadmap in deep detail But I was just like I was shocked that suddenly we're getting a roadmap We're gonna have to dig into this one. This is bigger than a news story. This needs full-on investigation So we will be breaking down the roadmap here in just a few moments All right So and then Sneakily What happened today, but my my If we didn't get some FAQs nobody saw it coming Boom stealth FAQ I woke up I woke up and everybody was like hey tom tom tom I was tagged everywhere on the FAQ like hey, have you seen this yet in every chat that I'm in Um, thanks everybody. Thanks for thinking of me. I appreciate it Gw. Thank you for thinking of me with my event coming up in three days. I appreciate it Yeah, the night haunt FAQ dropped, um, I mean it it's pretty much expected, right? Like they did what we kind of thought they would do Yeah, yeah, I mean, I think we got the things that you would expect to make things work So let's just talk through the sort of three main elements of this real quick. Sure. Sure So If Nagash is part of a night haunt army to friendly night haunt units holy within 12 inches of him benefit from deathless spirits Yes, so effectively he's still counting as a hero in the army to grant the six plus ward save Of course, he should have it would have been completely logical What's a general or, um, a night haunt hero? Right, correct. Yep So great good stuff Uh, good answer Excellent, I mean not at all surprising if it would have been the other answer I think we would have all had some serious questions But it wasn't right, right. So good Uh, if Nagash is part of a night haunt army can a friendly night haunt unit that is being set up using a spectral summons command ability We set up holy within 12 inches of him. Also. Yes, again, great Perfect. What again what you would expect that sort of the army rules don't affect him But he can affect down onto them Right, exactly. Exactly. He's the boss So we you could think of think of Nagash in night haunt like Tony Danza Okay, he is in fact The boss so there we go Even though Tony wasn't actually the boss in that show as Abed proved Uh, and then we got the other one the other one here that came out in broken realms bellicor The official answer Which was not a clarification Sure, okay. It was an error. They changed the rule Sure, they did change the wording you can change wording to make things more clear when that was their original intention anyways Sure, oh sure Or you can change the wording to make to rule out something that does currently work Which is what they did. Oh, well, it doesn't matter what it was. Here's what it is What it is is that the emerald host no Nagash does not get The two up bodyguard onto Uh onto Hex Wraiths Yeah, that's fine Good That's exactly the correct answer There is no way Nagash should have been getting body guarded under any circumstance So there you go. I buy by a bunch of Hex Wraiths. Let me say that Okay Yeah, all fine. So that was our FAQ. I mean I I like that they did this Keep doing this Just put out these FAQ. It doesn't need to be a whole thing Right Right, right I mean, this is fine. You can just drop The You can just drop that just update the app update the app and move on It doesn't need to be a big to do it doesn't need to be something that people are clamoring for for four weeks waiting on it to release Yeah, you can just answer these questions like this anytime. We we're happy for it. I like this thumbs up a plus work Keep it up. Keep up the good work. Maybe fix the ward thing we talked about last week next the bodyguard ward thing Uh, there's no air there and by the way that works for emerald host too. I don't know if you Yeah, we're not rehashing that at any rate And you know, I'm I'm glad they ruled this way I want to see them just keep doing this put out a put out a clear answer when you know, there's When there is a question that has clearly been frequently asked Yeah In the community and they have clearly come down on an answer like they know what the answer is clearly Perhaps we should just publish that and make it official Yeah Don't uh You know no need to Wait a couple weeks until some magical day Where it'll get a lot of traction put it out Put it up there push the app update yo By the way, I like that this came out at the same time as the app update. That was great good Keep up the good work. Like I have no negatives here. This is all positive. Thank you gw. Well done. Keep up the good work I want to see this continue rolling So More please Please sir. Can I have some more? All right Any other news there tom? I think we finally got through all the news Oh, I think it I think that uh, it's pretty good. I mean obviously the roadmap, but we're gonna cover that We're gonna cover that. Yes. All right. So let's get to some pick Of the week so Pick of the week tom What would you like to share with everybody? Yeah, so, um Honest for wargamer rob friend of the show Had a pretty big announcement today Where they did a show on um a player rankings database that they've been working on Yeah, so it's not public yet So you have to go watch their video in order to kind of see how it works and functions But um, it's an exciting thing. Oh By the way, we did miss one thing You want to talk about the itc thing And that was the itc announcement like sure I thought we talked about it in this context because I had a feeling one of us was gonna I was gonna pick this if you didn't so yeah, that's fine Because with the news we also had the announcement that gw is going to be partnering with itc to like bring ranked stuff to all their events and And all this stuff and uh and rob's uh framework, you know, it was a helpful kind of uh world ranking system that he created Um, I don't know how that's gonna dovetail with what gw is doing, but Yeah, I'm excited. So it's a neat video. Go check it out Yeah, I agree. I'll link it down below Uh, my if you didn't pick that I was going to because I I think that it's honestly, I You know, we're not going to get into the midwest relationship with itc here in the show That's for other people to talk about so It's but I I like what rob was doing and I like that there are different ways to view sort of Player performance. I think that's a good thing Uh, so instead my other recommendation was going to be Uh For our good buddy two plus tough who has his own series of wish lists and wish listing He went through around the new roadmap announcement that we're going to talk about And so Uh, go check that out. It's super fun. I like a lot of the points he makes about them About the various armies and what he hopes to see Uh, I hope that they it's the kind of thing that Oftentimes, you know, dug doesn't in any way pretend to be a competitive player Right, that's that's not what he is dug is an enthusiast of the game And what I love about his perspective and what he shares In his wish listing Video is how he talks about This would make the army cool. This would be, you know, more fun for me And I think dug speaks for a lot of people And so I want to see I hope that the book shape out a lot in the way he's describing it. Okay So there you go, uh rust belt back blacksmith and go back and watch last week's show, buddy Because we took a 25 minute deep dive Oxford style debate into how it works So it could not get more detailed than what we did last week Okay So there you go. All right Let's talk about uh, some hobby time Uh, well tom you're coming up this weekend because Columbus brew hammer is happening this weekend So we're going to a tournament you and I as well as crazy horse. He's also in the chat. He's gonna be coming up as well And uh, I don't think I'm gonna do well at this tournament. I don't but that's okay You're gonna have same cars. I right. Yeah, I just think I'm gonna get hammered by everything that's good in the meta But that's fine. I'm gonna enjoy playing the list Um, I am excited to go one and four. I'm gonna have to walk home. Fortunately. We live in the same city at least Like this is gonna. There's one of those one and four attorneys for me. I'm setting my expectations No, there's no way dude. You're playing stormcast like you're As the data has shown There were also there were two Stormcast players way down at the bottom two who had dragons in there. So just saying here's gonna be one of them Money you don't go less than three and two. I We'll see we'll see anyways um The so but my hobby time Uh, in prep I have everything painted for the tournament And I have a display board. I'm using already for this tournament Um, but I'm working on this display board right here and this has been the majority of my hobby time. That's what all this Nonsense is back here This is my new display board. I'm building. I didn't intentionally turn it away from the camera. That's funny I didn't really think about it before and it's just where I've been working on it um and uh So but this is the the new thing that I'll take to holy wars here in two weeks So we have back to back tournament weeks Yeah, it's exciting. I've never had this before So i'm doing yeah, so i'm doing uh, I have night haunt prep for this weekend. I actually for hobby time this week like Um, I went and played like I went to my local shop tonight. Uh and got two games in today Did a game against uh, first part of the first prince game against uh, uh stormcast. So that was fun Uh, so i'm gonna take a night haunt this weekend and the next weekend for our teams um, I'm taking uh full-on lumineath so That'll be a fun Uh, mix that up and that's what I've been painting and cleaning up and like I I am really like it's so funny because my lumineath are not a Like i'm not taking a like a competitive like hyper competitive like hard edge lumineath list I mean, it's it's an unusually constructed tournaments as always for for holy wars anyways Certainly, um, but it's like a mixed arms and like it's so funny because I have a little bit of this a little bit of that And I look across it and i'm just like I love painting Like I love my scheme and like I like like and so it's funny like I want to finish painting this army I don't know that i'm ever I have no plans of ever taking lumineath to a 2k tournament like I probably will at some point. I'm sure you will but um But like I'm like this is really the first time I've ever painted an army for fun Like like to high levels of just painting for painting's sake, you know like and um, yeah Color scheme really does make things enjoyable to paint That's just it like if you have a paint scheme that you actually enjoy painting I think people underestimate the value of a paint scheme you enjoy painting It's why test models are so valuable for an army Don't just paint something because you think that's how it's supposed to look like experiment try stuff If you find something you really enjoy painting Using techniques or whatever that you're enjoyed doing It can it radically changes the journey to 2000 points at the end beyond It does and like it's just super poppy like I love the you know, like it's um I've really enjoyed doing like Since my dock which was like very flat and drab You know and like I wanted that because I wanted to feel like lulu and shadow. Yeah, yeah, sure Uh, but like my most recent stuff is haish and even my ghosts. I wanted like neon green, right? And so like I just have I've been doing very vibrant colors with a lot of my recent schemes and get into the pop pop pop Okay So, uh, but I got lots of stuff I got so much stuff to work on besides let's say that that board is only one of 10 projects I have lined up that are that all need to be painted for various things Uh, most of which I can't talk about so but you'll see him eventually Um, okay tom Shall we talk roadmap? Uh, you can start talking roadmap. I'll be right back. Good Then guess what we're not actually talking roadmap. I tricked him I tricked him Because we're not talking roadmap to begin with instead I want to talk about something else entirely. Okay, so instead oops not that no go away. Where are you? There we go. Ta-da Sorry everyone. Okay. Instead we're going to take a quick look back tom over the history of this show So we've been around longer than a os But wait, we're not doing a roadmap. We're going to We're going to but before we get into the roadmap I thought it was important as this is our seventh anniversary to just have a quick little chat about the history of the battle tomes that have been released and the metas That they created. I just want to talk about some strats Because something occurred to me that i'm going to make a point here And we'll probably do a whole show about this in the future. This is just a little this is just a little teaser for that Now Everything before battle tomes silvaneth here in 2016 doesn't matter Because they're not real Okay, okay. Do you think those battle tomes are real? Yeah I mean I Disagree I have two collectors editions of some of those early battle tomes Including collectors edition ever chosen and it had rules. It had the plate touch battalion in it. Sure It didn't have rules as we would come to think of them, right? Indeed indeed. So Yeah, this army in in 2016 was really the first army battle tome that Became what we think of now is battle tomes. Do you remember the announcement video for it? No They filmed rob because he worked there at the time and they handed him the book and just filmed his To it. Yeah, it was great. Okay So You've got silvaneth beast claw all that stuff 2016 right So your meta before this is the wild west In the aos world right pretty sort of in this period of time. It's just the wild west Like battle tome terrain battle tome fork. Yeah, we had not one Battle tome book are out terrain, but two in that first year correct chaos dread hold in the dominion of chaos. Yes, absolutely Madness, but it was just wacky do right like you had your classic uh battle brew You know monster truck beast claw riders with a bunch of goblins Right and then change houses each And then into a meta where basically no one where there was nothing solid like things were kind of all over the place, right? You had silvaneth and certainly kernoff with bows were incredible All right, but they weren't like meta defining. They just existed You know stuff that this time just existed in 2016 If you remember 2016 was the first Nashcon we went to yeah And You know, you were running plague touched at that time. I was I was that's why I knew it had rules in it Yeah, sure. I was running Uh a bunch of mixed Uh zinch stuff, but not you know, I mean like not whatever not from decisive zinch yet I would generic chaos sure like let's be very clear like I was everything's But I was generic chaos. Yep Okay, so then into this environment of a lot of nonsense and sort of a very unstable Lack of do lots of stuff all over the place crazy meta Comes the disciples of zinch tome in 2018 Which is 2017. Sorry. I apologize. Which is like a wrecking ball. It's just miley cyrus its way right into the scene okay and It defined the meta. I think in a way. No other book ever has before Yep, because it was so potent And so holistic and just worked in a way that nothing else did Yep And cheated And cheated. Yeah, I mean it like not in a not in a way that the players are bad I just mean as we've always said that zinch is principle as they cheat But it wasn't like the very next book which came out a month later Had vanguard wing it Well, we're getting there absolutely We're getting there. Okay. So this zinch book comes out and hits like a meteor And just zinch armies become very potent So the zinch armies, especially the war around at that time your lords changed your zangor Skyfires brutal stuff skyfires were cheapest chips mortal wound shooting on red extreme range with extreme mobility on fives and sixes everything we currently hate Was there? Yeah Then we get to our exactly we get our storm cast battle tone with truly no offense to the artist, but their worst cover are awful. Yeah And Yes, that drops vanguard wing Liberator spam. Yeah, I was like fit 30 60 liberators That doesn't happen that didn't happen that year. No No, like that that took that literally took an entire year for vanguard wing to spit up I agree. We'll talk about why this is you're you're getting at something. I want to hit on tom. You actually just Nailed the exact point I want to make. Okay. That's fine. Is it my fault? No, no, no not at all No, it's just something I've noticed as I was thinking through this and thinking about the evolution of the meta Something occurred to me. Okay Well, I the reason why I bring that up is because I was banging on the vanguard wing drum Like long before it actually like hit the bat Sure. Well, same with plague touch Do you and a few other people around the world were very much on plague touched back in the time when there weren't that many people running plague touch at any rate You weren't the only progenitor of that. There were others who were also there, but yes, you were amongst that cadre Cragorn overlord book comes out. We get more alpha drop shooting Right, because that's where we get our that's where we get the taste Of what it means to go all in everything in a boat drop hard drop fast shoot everything kill Okay Yep, in our what's the what's the name of the skyport that did this uh Thank you. Zilden. I couldn't think of its name. Yeah, so we had the zilfin alpha strike All right, yep And you had uh, and you had blood letter Like the blood letter alpha as well at that same time where they would push forward 120 blood letters And wipe you off all of your objectives at the top of one or whatever And then burn all your stuff. So there are like scenarios that you couldn't even win Pre so jonathan said we're gore pilgrims The big thing in 1.0 corn getting across the board first turn burning all the objectives Yes, that was that was a big list your like when bonuses were all cumulative running a ton of blood letters The only time in aos blood letters have ever been at all something people cared about I think it was pre this book actually But they would yes, you could take a bunch of blood letters soup them up So they could charge first turn and just burn all the objectives and certain things, right so Okay Then 2018 comes and 2018 not only brings aos 2 eventually But we get legions daughters eidneth Three armies that would be very impactful on the med in a big way legions through the skeleton spam especially pre The changes to to sort of the way coherency works as we thought about it then Yep When you could just have big blocks of skeletons everywhere and just remove things from the middle And replace them and just march all the way across the board Daughters with unbelievable melee power and then eidneth who would just high tide yolo on three right basically their same strat They've been doing this is still their current book by the way obviously, so It's it's it was the strat. It's been the strat Okay And then we get aos 2 launch Yeah Now in my mind in 2018 what we saw was not much happening like the meta As it was in 2018 Had a couple lists that were very strong Okay But a lot of the like Hard offenders that had been previously there current offs have been nerfed by this time Skyfires are nerfed by this time as we get deep into there, right? And What we start to see emerge is the beginnings of the melee swamp meta Daughters are going to be the first thing that herald the coming of this new meta Yep Because they unlike any other book that had come before them brought synergistic power In a way that they could spin a unit up and make it do damage like nothing else had ever done in the game Sure Yeah And they were really the first herald of what would become The meta Right Yeah post aos 2 launch Doc is sitting at like a 60 to 70 win rate depending on the exact time you're talking about Yep. Yep, like from the doc release book up until The flesh eater court scaven meta That's when doc was sitting at that like 60 like 70 70 plus So let's push into the end like 28 the end of 2018. I think we all forget how empty it was We got the two launch tones and then we got beasts Then nothing. Yeah, it felt very much like our current year only there was no code Yeah, right. Yep three books Yep The beast book was underwhelming didn't really impact the meta much the night haunt would turn out to be underwhelming You know stormcast at the beginning did have an extremely high play percentage And a lot of the new units that came here in it in the second edition would be Seen a lot at the start though. They would quickly get eclipsed As once 2019 began then we officially launch The nonsense So between the launch of flesh eater courts and heat knights of slainesh We get a grotesque period of flesh eater courts hyper powerful melee army Fire slayers very powerful melee army in its new incarnation Not as much as everything else and still hard to play and unpopular aesthetic, but very powerful melee army slainesh extremely powerful melee army And shooting at this point in time is effectively non-existent Sure Now when scaven comes out they're way too cheap They explode in the meta their win rate shoots through the roof Everybody fries foul says they're overpriced. They're they're under under costed, right? no hyper efficient And They crank all the points on scaven over every single FAQ slash update that would happen every six months for the next year and a half Scaven's points would all go up with almost nothing going down Okay, so scaven enters gets about three to six months of real if really scary effectiveness and then But once flesh eaters hits That period between flesh eaters and heat knights is when the melee meta calcifies Yeah Because there is no real strong shooting to speak of to stop these things Know that nothing that can pick away The power pieces that are there in those armies that they're relying on yeah and Well, even cities wasn't enough, right? Like, yeah cities had some shooting, but it didn't change the meta Okay None of these things stop that they go on a rampage for the rest of 2019 with sonnetian flesh eaters just dominating Now sneakily by the way dock is still doing really well because it is the same thing Right, right. It's the same tactic. Right. You have the activation wars begin Right The only part dock doesn't play in but they have the same strategy Get in there Do a ton of damage in melee Yep So 2019 brings us this melee powerhouse of no shooting in the activation wars the age of double piling in fire slayers Uh fight last slanesh double piling in fight on death flesh eater courts Fight Yeah fire slayers were Strike first Double piling. Yeah, right So you get this whole spread, right where these things just have no natural predators In them in the meta Right The silvaneth book Does not stop any of that from happening Everybody loves the cities in the orc war clans book and certainly they're impactful But I honestly think it wasn't until ostearc that you started to see this turn Because when the ostearc bone reapers came out what they could produce Was by this time two things happened one slanesh and flesh eater start getting somewhat nerfed in points or whatever And bone reapers could generate ultra high armor which had always been one of slanesh's weak spots They couldn't slanesh actually has no rend you think the army of a bunch of claws Would have rend but they couldn't they their rend is terrible And they have very little mortal wounds to speak of so they can't crack armor They were relying on the fact that it was a relatively soft meta Bone reapers come out ogres come out Yeah, you see some monster truck lists around certainly every like as the combined ogres happens But you know, it is what it is this is then dawns the age of petrofex elite Where suddenly obr is 12 of the meta And 99.8 of those tournament reporting lists are petrofex elite Because it was the perfect answer to what was there right Yeah And then we get into more recent history which obviously now as we moved from 2019 into 2020 We started to see the birth of the ranged meta and all those old melee things from 2019 Fall away as their true natural predators entered the scene not slaves to darkness, but zinch under costed incredible ranged power when it first When it first hit Right just unbelievable power. It actually served as a really interesting counter to to bone reapers almost out of the gate And just put them down hard But you know, I was at can con 2020 and I watched what zinch could do when they first launched and it was grotesquery Right You had KO launched at the same time their new book fairly underwhelming especially in contrast to zinch, but it is still a shooting army Yeah, shooting shooting mobility still dead Right seraphon bring a ton of different ranged power into the meta as well as mobility as well as just tricks Right so further stopping all of our previous melee hunters And then lumineath and sentinels enter the have entered the arena And now we've just sealed it four books back to back That all introduced extremely powerful ranged slash control power projection mechanics in some way or another it's not all just shooting right And three of the four were strong magic as well Yes power projection Right broadly construed. This was the age of the magic dogs Right now you have the combination of all the melee armies have been nerfed For the past year all their points have been jacked up because they were swimming in a sea where they had no natural predators Right so they all got pushed way up and then in comes their often underpriced natural predators who just found them who made them easy pickings Yep So this combination of things Just killed the old meta like the 2019 meta died so fast so hard Looking back Where just it felt like overnight Everything was different Yep, right and I mean well, I suppose in 2020 that truly did happen for a lot of the world Then we enter sort of the lockdown period We get you know The second heat night's book is terrible. The new doc book is great Sons of bem that comes out and introduces the dps checks Right and that kind of is bringing us into our current meta a lot of these things from 2020 Honestly are still around and you had two strong shooting Uh books two more You had another doc book and you had a uh um Luminous new lumeneth update which was a the wind mage folks were predominantly shooting, right? Uh, that was heal on and all that stuff. Yeah, and it brought in your ability to do fox force five and stuff like that. Yes Interestingly, you know the other thing that you haven't taken into account here are the broken realm stuff Sure. Yeah, I'm just I'm just talking main battle tomes. You know, and I understand But like leads through the first prince enters Um, they're right in between soul blight and the other stuff, right? Yeah, um, like right in the middle of that and then you also have the entrance of We should state Not their original introduction. Obviously loka had come out before that, but yes the legion of the first prince. Yes Yeah, well with the new bell Yeah, yeah, yeah So yeah, it's interesting that you know and then obviously storm cast continued in strong Um, but it seems like we're going through a shift, right? Uh, it's interesting now because yes, we we so for a long time the meta has remained pretty stagnant Right when you look at sort of who were the big six who were the sinister six A lot of them had these 2020 tomes zinch was in there seraphon was in their lumeneth sons daughters Right. Yeah And I should state the daughter's win rate never Fell really below 60% they've always been at the sort of top of the pile I think right now they're in, you know, everything as we have brought in from the fat middle getting inching closer to an actual middle Balanced area. So it's good. Like we have reigned in the the excesses, which is good But daughters has always found themselves at the top of the pile In every incarnation and throughout all changes they've had the resiliency to do it Right. Well, and they got updated fast enough too because they because They stayed on the top of the meta and then right when things were starting to drift down They got updated with better better cost of bow snakes and it ran up right back Yeah, because remember bow snakes used to be terrible folks. Yeah, yeah, of course They were five shots for 140 points They were the only unit you in the in the book that you basically never saw on the table Ever, right. So doc has always maintained some presence but right the Uh What's interesting to me is how much the meta locked in in a way that like we're now in 2022 by the way, we all know that right that is the current year Right And yes, we are starting to see some change and I think that It's interesting because if you look at those lists What we now see is this incredible combination of Just ultra powered offense and ranged mortal wound shooting people who can project extreme power Have sort of entered the top of the list now, right that has become the sinister six Yeah, yeah And So new stormcast either through long strikes dragons Or just fulminators who don't do mortal wounds and like play warhammer very fairly Okay, fulminators hit like a mack truck, but they're still playing warhammer They don't move out of sequence. They don't fight out of sequence. They just Move charge and then hit real hard, right? They're just they're just playing warhammer They just happen to do it in an extremely scary fashion, right and very point-efficient fashion, correct No disagreements. They're probably too cheap, you know, what which elves? Yeah, yeah, they're just new witch elves Right, right. That's it Yep But you only have to move two or four models instead of 30. It's a lot easier True The The interesting part to me is that we're finally seeing a shift after two years We had this very fast changing meta throughout 2018 2019 things were really moving Yeah And then 2020 now again a lot of this is covid time. So, you know, whatever whatever It's it's been a weird time, right? But it definitely felt more solid throughout And only now do we see this new meta of like you have to be this tall to get on this ride And the this tall is in almost all cases extreme damage Yeah Extreme offense through power projection like suns have been falling like a rock Why because they're just a dps check that wants to stand there. Everybody can pass that dps check Okay, like all the I should say everybody because there's a lot of armies that can't The sinister six that are still operating at the top can pass that dps check without breaking a sweat They'll kill a giant. They'll kill two giants around if you let them Right, right Uh, so that's the world we currently find ourselves in right and my It's it's an interesting turn of events to this extreme offense play because It feels like and whenever you have a sort of dominant play style, then you have a counter style Which by the way is the finisium list also Because the finisium list if you look at that finisium list it punishes them for killing people Not only does it do that? Yes. Like they had all the assassins all the bonus assassins to pop out Maybe attack who cares but their point was to get slaughtered to turn on all the bonuses for the army Nothing in the finisium list is ultra high damage Not that phoenix guard can't do some damage when they get fully buffed and their only But they're not the level of damage we're talking about out of this other stuff. They're just not Right, they're good damage not Exceptional Right, right, but what they are is tough as a coffin now Right with ward saves for days on the whole army Yep And so they turn all of the strengths of this mortal wound power projection into just like who cares Who cares? Because i'll just cut everything you do in half and you just can't kill me fast enough Right, right now again They didn't take it all the way right. They did end up losing but they I mean that list went real far It's it reminds me of sort of it. It's an almost anti affinity play to make a magic reference In the time when affinity became dominant Your only lists were 80 affinity and 20 anti affinity Things that were meant to destroy artifacts and take them apart and that's what the finisium list feels like in the current meta Okay, all right So that's the world now. Here's the other point. I want to make tom real quick you hit on it I'm going to bring up this little chart. This is a very simple little chart. Okay. This is my I want to evaluate Meta dominating strats. I just started this because this is I didn't want to really fill this all out I just wanted to make a point and then I'll probably do a whole show about this in the future You mentioned that it took basically a year for vanguard wing to catch on Yeah, yeah, okay Yep, so here is my four quadrant power versus the complexity of achieving that power chart Okay, okay Yeah and If you look at this What I what I am pointing out here is that vanguard wing took forever to catch on and got very rarely played Even at the height of its power when it was just like it was so abusively strong It was the most broken stupid thing ever. It was awful awful And if you defend it at the time you should feel bad But it was so complicated and so ridiculous that you basically never saw it right And as we went down into 2019 what's interesting is the complexity on achieving that power falls like a rock because the flesh eater courts power Just Was like nothing it took no took no no offense to anybody who ran it But you could achieve it forward and just first try double pilot it Yeah With re-rollable six mortal wound bites. Yeah, yes, you could just push forward and murder Yeah, given if somebody was super highly skilled, of course, they would beat you no armies 100% win in aos, right? right but You know, it just it just magnified Like against equal or lower skill. You just steamrolled people steamroll. Yeah Yeah, it's like dragons right now right yes Yes, the dragons are swing them forward and you know, it doesn't is it going to take the top of every tournament? No No, no, but against against equal. It's just it's going to burn Yeah, you would just push forward hit your fire breath button a couple times and then charge Yeah, flesh eater courts didn't win every tournament. It was still an awful stradded tight Slanech didn't win every tournament. It was an awful thing at its height Okay, yeah So the complexity versus power is an interesting thing to me because there's sort of four quadrants and This is your this top left is your worst quadrant high complexity sort of low power Right where it takes you have to work really hard to get nothing That's probably where current slanech fights itself, right? Gitz is there too. Yeah Gitz is probably up there too. Yeah, exactly So I just thought this was an interesting way to think about it as I was sort of having shower thoughts This is what occurred to me that there's that not all power strats Are equal in complexity rating of what it takes to achieve them Yeah, right that sort of skill floor Yeah, so anyways, all right now with all that being said, let's go back and talk roadmap Okay, so we got a roadmap announced All right, okay, Tom The road got that beer maybe I'll need to go get another one sure Can we call the top left the Gitz quadrant? We absolutely can let's talk about that roadmap folks So we got four four four new books announced Okay With two more Announced but not defined Okay, we're gonna go I death and fire slayers night haunt daughters of cane mystery order mystery chaos Yeah, we're gonna get into it Because I know what those two are. I mean, I don't know I don't know anything But I know I have a guess I'm I've got the tinfoil hat tuned in here today folks. Let me tell you what I'm excited. Absolutely. I'm curious if your guess is gonna be my guess. We'll see Let's talk about I death and fire slayers first. This is the one obviously we knew this was coming Now there were a lot of people holding out hope Hold on for one more day People are holding out hope that We were gonna get a combined dwarf book Okay Now is the fire slayers aren't the same art tom? Yeah, okay There are people who are holding out hope still that because the fire slayers are that they used here in this image is a repeat art piece That in fact that means that they're secretly not a fire slayer's book, but the ko is going to be in here No, okay. This is now a conspiracy theory. Have you ever watched uh h bomber guys? Uh sherlock the fourth the mystery fourth sherlock episode It's a great thing. It's about the conspiracy theory around four four the the fourth episode of sherlock season four. It doesn't exist But the people were sure existed Because they were they whatever it's it's insanity sure The point is No, it's fire slayers. They said it right there. There's the word look you can see it Okay It's just fire slayers Hey, did you know that I got a leak um that I actually got my hands on a collector's edition for the new night haunt book Oh, there you go. We'll get there tom. We'll get there. Yes Because it's also the same art. I get it. All right. Let's talk IDK tom This is the one probably neither of us are super invested in Good response. What do you hope to see out of this tone? What do you want this tone to be? uh Anti shooting anti line of sight Stuff Okay, you want him to keep the sort of shooting gatekeeper nature that they have of being hard to bring down on that I want to make sure that it that applies to magic as well and it applies sentinels And it is a high wound a high moth a high wound high model count army It won't be but I wish that it was um so that so that like those um those Types of army lists couldn't actually Punch through the lines before they engaged in melee Yeah, I think my number one thing I want to see we've already seen part of it. I'm already going to two inch reach Right. So already mission accomplished unfurl the banner Um So that's great My hope Is that we finally achieve the sort of combined arms creatures of the sea dream that we've all wanted here Should let's let's talk a few specifics real quick. Tom. Let's do a little lighting round and I'm not deep getting here ready Sure, should they keep their rituals? You know that mechanic they have where you you kind of roll dice and there's some weird bonuses. No No Correct. No Just give them priests Correct Correct. Absolutely right. Just one of those guys is a priest. He has prayers Stop it Get jettisoned that mechanic into the sun I don't know who wrote that originally, but it was not your best not what your finest hour. I'm sorry So this is that was an example by the way Of what obr became later Sure What that is is that was a failed system that they wrote to test Something in the future that did not work. Yeah where obr's like rdp became the new command point system That was probably the new prayer system they went. Nah, maybe not. This is ridiculous because What your bonus isn't any given but you just roll and hope you get a 10 And then if you do you or a nine or something close And if you do you go look and see if maybe you accidentally got the bonus, right? Right, right So please jettison that into the sea Uh Next question Should they keep Maybe not the exact rules the rules could change, but should they keep the tides mechanic? No rules go in rules go out Should they keep that? I think it was asked before I still think it is if they want to that's fine I think this is a thing they should keep and just change some of the rules around That's that's the simple answer just have it do different things I like the tides mechanic. It's a cool idea and it suits the army well It's fine They just need to also design it with the understanding that whatever's happening in four and five kind of doesn't super matter Right, so right most of the game is over by then. Yep, right So maybe maybe understand that's the case in the writing of the tides But yeah, I say go print the tides. Let's do this Okay Well with the dock book releasing at the same time it has almost an identical mechanic sure well docks is completely building I'd nets is not It's turn it's turn on turn off turn on turn off, right? indeed, okay Yeah, I agree. I want to see the mixed arms. I want to see them jettison the rituals keep that have a formal priest And it's not a terrible army right now. It's not in a super bad place. I don't think there's a huge delta to cover here sure Do you want them to get endless spells? No, I mean they're not going to so it doesn't matter whether I want it or not. They're not getting endless spells So it doesn't what are we talking about? Like you don't think they know No No, I don't think during the pandemic they were looking to try to outsource more stuff to china That's fair That's like I don't think any of these people are going to have endless spells because endless spells are made by the scenery department And all that stuff comes from china and the shipping and cost structure on that just shot through the roof through the roof So the whereas before endless spells were probably quite a profit center for them overnight they became potentially a loss leader you're not even that just a straight loss And and they just they don't want to why mess with that There's no way they want to rely on that Interesting Okay Uh, I agree with hardy tides is thematic rituals or not keep the tides. There you go. Yep Uh All right Yeah, they get their hero. That's the end of it fire slayers. They also get their hero And that's the end of it We're not We're not get there's no other secret units No, and like I just you know like the thought I had today I shared in the chat our chat is that like Maybe magma dross are good in this edition. Sure. So like here's the like here's the the late great hope of fire slayers Okay, go for it. Maybe magma dross are playable Or like our super monster stomping If that's the case there might be some interesting fun potent fire slayer lists but as What like we have all of the base units folks All the war scrolls for every single non-hero unit of fire slayers is out there already So that was my first question. Which is Do you think that the rules that were printed in the box set are in fact the final rules that will be in the book? Yes, understanding that the box set rules would have been printed Six months before the book was finalized. Yes 100 percent. Okay The only thing that might change is points Sure, I could see I could see points having changed having moved around and you know what they would have had to lock that pre most of the playtesting Right for the box right because the box has to be done so far in advance Yes, um, but the the points on Some of those like volkite units are just unmanageable. Sure and especially like Like and I could go into this but not only did every scroll get worse like volkites are Have less melee punching power Like the like the pick shield volkites then plague bearers do sure like that is a That's math um And so it's just like it's it's a real problem for that army at this point um You get better like here's pound for pound castigators Are better shooters Than the oryx shooters in the new fireslayer book sure Castigators I understand I get it. Yeah, I mean it's it's You look at sort of the boxes versus this I do think you could still see some changes just because of how these things are locked in sometimes things do change Sometimes it's just points. I mean we saw the dominion to storm casting cruel boys points changes right So sometimes that does happen. I think it could you could see minor rules tweaks too. I might add by the way I agree with you probably not gonna see a completely different scroll But I mean they clearly changed the nergal rules at the last moment As you could tell from the noxious noxious nexus not getting caught that it worked as per the old disease rules, right? Um, so in my mind uh I'm not writing off fireslayers yet I tend to agree with dan who said, you know plague bears don't have a five up on their On their scroll if you just looked at a plague bearer scroll you'd be like, what is this? This is terrible If you take plague bears into account with their allegiance ability and everything else that they have they are an incredibly good unit So it could be that the allegiance ability slash other stuff is adding a lot here. I don't know. I'm not ready to write him off I mean ultimately to me The the train that we need to be on here that I didn't see in the cards in the box Is that they still haven't really established the three roles that they should For these three different for these three units again The fact that they have the number of units they have means nothing You could make a compelling book out of three base units Well, they have four basic units now because they split the fireslayers into two different scrolls So like the dual wheelers Yeah, are now different a different scroll than the the pick or the axe shield, which I get it. I'm still calling that three units My point is you could you could you could get too interesting with three units iron jaws has done it for four years Five years six years. I don't even know forever since the first time they got a battle to them Yeah And even before then they were doing it in in the general's handbook Yeah, right So it can be done. We just have never done it with fireslayers And I don't know what they would say is that like Volkites are the bodies Oryx are the shooters Earth guard berserkers or your elite infantry But that's not That's not roles right Roles are hammer anvil mobility right things that serve a role a purpose in the game Elite infantry means nothing. That's nothing That's nothing Right, and that's not me yelling at you. That's me just No, they would say that that's that like they are the hammers is what I would say Yeah, they're the hammers and volkites are the animals, but But that's not the case. Obviously earth guard have always been hammer and anvil and the only thing useful so yep So still the case. Yeah, I mean You know, so if it could be done like you could have volkites be Uh Like a swamp anvil Right where they make a ton of it's like they make a ton of low rend attacks They have a lot of wounds. They can just absorb damage in some way, right? You could make earth guard. I understand that. I'm saying you could I'm just going to sketch out three imaginary things, right? You could You know, and you could have them be slow. You could have earth guards somehow be quite quick And be a strong hammer Right and and pull off their word saves or something like that and just make them like a super strong Relatively quick by the standards of the armor army hammer and by the way, how do you make them fast when they're still a little dwarves? I don't know because they have the fire of of Uh Of grim near Yeah, so they have special runes. They burn that let them move Three times their normal speed once a game in the hero phase or something You know, who cares I could write 50 rules that make them fast It's called the speed of flame Sure, sure Whatever man, right? My point is it's It's not hard Right. Yeah, you could just make crap up And then the shooters would be your ranged power projection glass cannon unit. He's like you don't want to get into him blah, blah, blah Right Yeah, it's fine Like you could do this Yeah, thank you. Newt said earth guard or natural sprinters exactly exactly good over short distances So yeah, you could give them crazy charge bonuses. Sure. Absolutely Plus four to charge something nuts, you know, sure Whatever It's fine. The point is there's there's answers, but they haven't seemed willing to go down that road now. Maybe they will Who knows? But as long as they keep making basically volkites just worse versions of earth guard, it's not gonna happen Right, right All right anything else anything else we want to say about idnet slash fireslayers These are our first two up by the way. These are these are coming Feel bad for any stores that bought lots of those boxes. I mean Who who would do that? Yeah, like this is like, uh Rob had named this the FOMO box There's there's no FOMO. These are sitting on gels right now All right, if you want to go get them Now let's talk about the one that that I cannot believe they just didn't announce this with the lvo thing Why why did you show us the box and not just also say Well, and here's a battle tone They said that they're gonna do a week's worth of announcement Without associated with lvo, but the only announcement they did were the books I guess Excuse me. Sorry everybody. All right. So night haunt and daughter's decay. Let's start with a ghost, tom We're excited about cross booze Yeah We've got some new new hero. We'll see see what he shapes up as could be something interesting. You never know Yeah, um so Tom you're a big night haunt fan. You're building your night haunt army right now What do you want tom out of this book? What do you expect to be? What are you hoping for? What do you think? Let me ask the first question. Are there any other units or have we seen all the units? Is this it one hero in the cross booze? I think we've seen all the units. I don't think that we have any more. Um, the only Like the only possibility would be cross booze having a separate build Like these being the mono pose and then there's like a multi-part build potentially in the independent box That's possibility more likely these will be like a five models for 45 dollars box. Sure. Um, like you'd like to do Um, and most of night haunt is push fit anyways Uh, so it wouldn't surprise me if they went with that with these guys um What do I want what I want? Um, I want The army does army a lot of people love this army. It's very popular. I want the army to be more reliable Um, less uh less, uh Flot machine-ish Okay, so you want to get rid of the slot machine? So let's get any deets on that tom should night haunt keep their 10 up Fight in the charge phase No, okay. Okay Are we just not replacing that with anything and just kind of buffing everything accordingly? Well, I mean So there's a couple of different ways you can go with this one that is where all of their their like That ability is all of their their allegiance abilities like that is the heart of their allegiance ability It's that and the mobility deep striking thing. That's it Mm-hmm. Like that's meaningful. Um, and so it can be replaced by something that's more reliable um, so maybe instead of something that triggers on um Something that triggers on a 10 plus to charge it could just simply be on a charge But not fight and not fight, but you're saying like on a charge some bonus happens. Yes Yeah on a charge or some debuff or something happens. Sure. Um, something that's more reliable reliable Which would be really interesting with some of the units if they kept them as they are like blade geists and even the bad glaive wraiths Um, have a retreat and charge built into the war scrolls. So that could be a really interesting combination Um, glaive race have to be feasible Like that is one scroll like I have 30 of them And most of them have never been built. Sure Like they are the horse headed models are just the worst Okay. Um, so they need to be fixed um Subfactions are coming. Obviously. We know that uh, we know we have emerald host We know that we have right in order to condemn it. Oh, it only makes sense if the third one is associated with, um What's his face? Uh, the The third named hero, um The kraven king The kraven king because we these the shooters are like the kraven kings guard or whatever they're called Sure. Yeah. Yeah. Um, it would make sense if the the third faction is kraven king associated And it's probably a shooter faction or something along those lines Um, okay. Let's let's get into some deets. Here we go ready Question the first should this in a world where battle shock can matter now like it's possible Yeah Uh Should this army exploit battle shock in some way make people run more Screw all bravery anything It has supposed to already have done that Sure, but it's always been bad at it Yeah, it's always been bad at it. I mean that said I had olander almost like force uh, like I was fighting a 10 man vindicator unit And he got down to three and he rolled the he's like, I'll just roll battle shock. It'll be fine and then like It was rolled the five Two were going to flee olander force the third to go, you know, like they're going to rust the So they have some of that now um But I mean they would have something would have to really change Well, I mean we live in a world where they could have a pseudo hero or pseudo monster action You know, maybe some of their units have a an almost like quasi monster action or something Uh, that would turn they could turn off battle shock, right? That is to say turn off inspiring presence or stop the ability to issue received commands We saw some of that sprinkled around nergal so we could see the same thing here True. It's true. And this would be where to do it. I mean historically they had a battalion that shut off inspiring presence And so it's possibility um So they should that be played up as like as a major theme Of the army is more what i'm asking it would make for I mean, they're spooky. It would make sense Um to happen to be spooky and make people run away um, I You know, I would um I find it comical by the by that ghosts are scary in any way in this world I know they're supposed to be spoopy But really ghosts like ghosts are scary to me. I don't find ghosts scary I wouldn't find ghosts scary if I lived in the mortal realms. Have you seen what else is around? These guys these guys. This is what i'm supposed to be afraid of You're half not even there. Did you see over there what's going on on the chaos wastes? That you see a character Yeah, like these guys are just gonna kill me Yeah, what's waiting over there is far worse That stuff is terrifying Stare into the mind of zeech and whatever is going on in that Ludicrous zone over there and you tell me i'm supposed to be afraid of this get out of here Ghosts as as a source of fear has always been comical to me Why is a bloodthirster or anybody in chaos afraid of a ghost? What are you going to do to me? What do you got ghost boy? Nothing, but that's what's supposed to be right like that's what they're supposed to be I understand. I'm just saying it's funny. Yeah in general the are the the Army has like universally lacked rend like there's just no rend They're supposed to rely on like melee mortal wounds and those have always just been like Very spotty Like it's just very unreliable um And so I think that they need to have more reliable like damage output in this meta Now I think that they and they present an interesting defensive Like you know against the hyper offense Right They're unrendable ghost cells will help Um, but they need better reward saves in order to make that a reality. Okay Next question The black coach What are we doing with the black coach tom? Is it a hero? I think he's by default a hero because he has a carenraith and carenraith is a hero So I think it has to be a hero from the get-go um Yeah, I would make it a hero and Basically change nothing else Fair enough Anything else you want to see out of the knight haunt book tom I mean you think it's good enough right now. You're running it not that there's not challenges I wouldn't like to see some better internal balance Right. I think that's definitely true We saw a knight haunt player hit the top eight with negosh Obviously negosh just just powered up that faction to some degree And he's he's he's gonna be tired from carrying it on his shoulders if we don't see some action in this in this book but I Do we need to deal do we want to see the the bubble-ness go away like be a lot looser on the bubbles? Like a holy within 12 just has to go Because it's so difficult Especially like that combined with the like the charge phase pylon is a problem Um, and like all the buffs are like phase dependent So like the bonus attack is like that phase that combat phase and the like um I don't know. I just um bubbles need to go um Yeah, yeah, I would say my way for getting rid of the bubbles by the way. Don't make them bigger Just get rid of them Um build a little more power into the units Yep, and then just make it abilities that they put on the unit for a given duration of time Like just that thing happens now. You're like that for this amount of time Whatever it is. It could be a single phase to counteract that right, but then let the let the Let the unit go Have less of that in there just buff up the unit some And simplify the interactions Where I just go boop boop Ghosty ghosty hero says ghosties go better. Okay ghosties go better now and honestly, I would love if there was a built in Um way to bump up your aftersave. That's not uh The the uh, the cruisier crusader. It's cruise theater crusader. Yeah Crusader Because like that's just more bookkeeping Sure, that's more conditional bookkeeping Like if I could get a base five up In the army Like it would make it really interesting because again, this becomes a real anvil like this becomes a real Army that can stop all the hyper power Sure I mean they have to be careful with that Because they just they they set the watermark for the tough army when they released nergal and gave them the entire army a five up board Right, that's the that's the challenge if you give an entire army a five up board and their ethereal You run into a problem because then you've got a hyper cost all their units Sure Sure, right And they're not they're they're not a horde army anymore Well, they're not yeah, that's fine. Sure I mean, yes, I understand you're gonna argue like they're not as much now But it's certainly at least conceptually they're meant you're meant to have packs of stuff Right, but I mean one of the challenges is is you don't have enough reinforcement points to do what you used to do Right, right, right like that's a real problem. Like your chain gas coming units of two Yeah, you know your your your glaive wraith Your great glaive wraith stalkers coming units of four your mirror more mangy coming units of four Like it's already like it as an army it is hit by the Um by the reinforcement point problem That we've that we've highlighted on a number of occasions. Absolutely I mean it's it it continues to be a problem for there for armies that have these small size units that just don't do Enough on their own and want to be at slightly double strength Right, and then also by the body need to be bumping up their battle line to make it anything Um, believe me as a scaven player. I understand right, uh Artorias rex said should knight hop be a horde army I don't know. I mean that chain rasps certainly speak to it their main battle line says that they want to have at least some packs of ghosts It is in the name. We call them chain rasps, but the war scroll is chain rasps horde horde. Yeah, sure sure So, you know, it's it's a question of I think that they want it to be on the higher model count side of things But then that becomes very challenging if you make them too defensive So it's always a tough line to walk But sure getting rid of the bubbles would go a long way if you just had easier ways to keep them in whatever their basic Buffs are it'd be a lot better Yeah Yeah Okay, let's talk about order battle tome number three out of four So far Daughters of cane tom daughters of cane Daughters of cane got their book last year Okay, why hello And now they get another one Eat your heart out Get some piece of chaos players Take that Enjoy your late 2018 early 2019 books Maybe uh, maybe craith will be good this time All right, so let's ask the most important question Yeah Why does this exist? Like why Hamza says this doc artwork is so much worse than previous books. Oh brother Strong disagree on that one. This is where it's at. This is my favorite artwork from any cover so far This almost justifies the book for me. Just marathi striding forward just Mm-hmm. She's doing this as she walks down the stairs Like that's what she's doing like what's up? She is she's doing the soma hayek walk with uh the snake and yeah, totally from from dust till dawn as As just as her girls just murder everything in sight. It's great. Just stabbing people to death It's fantastic Okay Now that aside, but hey aesthetics are all personal so I get it. I'm just saying I didn't mention it But this cover I truly love Do you want my joke answer or my real answer? Sure get both go for it. Whatever Uh My joke answer is chuck more Sure Chuck's do it do it his work on the play test team. No, I'm kidding. Um I No, I I think this book exists because of a multi-part problem Okay, I'm ready And that is we have moved into a new world of um We've moved into a new world of I lost my train of thought. Um, we've moved Uh, what I was saying no, so we've moved into a new world of how command abilities function Sure Right like with the new edition. Yeah, and of the armies this you know, if I were to look at a list This army has one of the most egregious command ability Yes It in marathi's command ability sure and in marathi's command ability And as well, there are other You know heroes that have command abilities require you to be the general Well, I mean Not really I mean not as much that you care about it's not This army doesn't really utilize its command abilities other than it plays in the normal command of the space other than marathi's Here's here. Okay Here's my point. There's no reason for this book to exist. I'm just gonna lay the straight story. This book should not exist That's it, man End of discussion. This is nonsense It's just straight nonsense. I'm gonna say what we all want to say This is this is exactly what happened with slash You better hope not if you're a doc player you better hope not Okay, that would be a horrible world to live in. I mean corn went through the same thing They haven't and then it was silence for years like they had a but you know, they had like several back Like the iterations in three years or something. Yeah now given that was again wild west time and so on and so forth corn has certainly been Is out of date by quite a ways now and they could use a tome yeah, but When you look at This daughter's book. I don't know how you justify this There's one hero Coming with this book. So it's not model-based. It's not like lumeneth part two Yeah, okay Yep Yes, the commandability on marathi is busted and shouldn't exist agreed Yeah That's an FAQ. You just literally did an FAQ called gods and heroes or some nonsense like that or gods and monsters or whatever they called it We could have just thrown marathi on that pile with archion negash and uh Whoever else we threw in there Uh crag knows uh, okay. Yep and fixture like doc is What this goes one of two ways in my mind It's gonna go really bad for doc the new book is just bad and for the first time in a long time doc just gets kicked in the teeth with a really unfortunate battle tone Well, this is I mean as re-rolling jacks one said or re-rolling ones jack said is that You know, they're about to pay for the sins of their past I think that's that's what this book is or well, we haven't seen enough battle tomes yet Right. So so the question is we seem to be on a decent enough trajectory with the quality of versatility to the battle tomes so far We could talk about why bones letters are such a mess, but that's Different discussion, right? Certainly for iron jaws somewhat for cruel boys. Certainly for nergal and storm cast We had three solid tomes with three interesting mechanics and a fair amount of versatility where the armies felt Mostly like where they're supposed to be. Are there problem units? Yes, do things need to be adjusted in some of those? Yes, they're not perfect tomes. Please don't mistake me or mishear me But they're stronger. We haven't had the fall flat tomes so far I suppose unless you're only a bones butters player in which case this is a bad time to be you but the Daughter's book one didn't need to exist at all does not need to the fact that they would have been starting this Knowing that I don't know how these two didn't overlap Okay, like they were in the design phase of this one before they had released the last one It's crazy. Maybe they said the turn around on on doc books is one year And this one is basically going to release A year and a month or two from when the last one okay They release it and then immediately go back into the planning room, but the point is they knew what was going on Right, okay But but you gotta remember not only was it that it was they had the prior book from first edition Yeah, yeah They did broken realms from arathi three months later. They released that second doc book I remember and then they go back in the planning room for this book Yep, um, I I don't like this That's the bottom line There are Many armies that need a tome and the problem with doc could have been fixed with an FAQ There are books. I'd like to see rewritten that are recent Okay, ash Sure, personally slanash being one of them. I'd love to see them rewrite sons of batman Here's here's something slanash only needs a 20 point reduction Even then it would still be bad tom like it'd be maybe it'd be more competitive But it'd still be a bad book because it's just a bad book Bad book is bad book. It's badly designed. But anyways, like it needs a ground up rewrite Trust me as someone who plays that army, okay But but again, I wouldn't care I'd happily put that to the side to get gets a book beasts a book Right We could we could look at it. We could name a bunch of armies that are in a dire state right now Yep Now one of those armies in a dire state is the other army up here I would argue like before negash came on these guys were in a pretty dire state Fortunately night haunt are getting their book, which is good I'm so I support that I'm happy about it But I just like with this daughter's book um There it's either gonna be a bad book, which I don't think so or here's what what I hope if we can turn this into a positive Okay Okay Like what do I hope happens? I hope we properly capture the spirit of this army In a glass canady melee murder force where we can run which elves and sisters and stuff like that again as a viable strap and And and improve the overall internal balance so it's not just bow snakes for the for the shoot win That's what I hope right And so if we're going to have to be saddled with this which clearly we are it's too late Right again. There are at least five other tomes. I would have easily said I would rather had than this I mean, that's bare men's probably could go as high as 10 At least another year of not this tone correct correct Right, but if we're going to be saddled with this then I at least hope it utilizes the whole army better Gets rid of marathi's toxic command ability Okay, and makes it so you can lean into the The different aspects of the army more in a more internally balanced fashion sure sure And by the way, they might have to also touch reinforcement points a little bit to do that Yeah, so Um, yes, like if you don't win fast you lose hard. I agree. I agree gumber. Yeah, that's right You know so, uh, and by the way, uh Smaller the things from me. Here we go. Um the murder wagon That's about murder and celebrating murder and is the head of your murder squad of murder elves Doesn't give a plus one bonus to ac anymore Sure Okay, maybe it's not bumping saves Maybe a plus one bonus to wound Yeah Have it celebrate murder. Yes, correct. Okay, so that's a small thing I have no idea why that mechanic always worked like that. It makes zero sense to me That's a blood shield. I know its name The murder wagon should inspire murder and celebrate murder not Not what it does now Uh, get rid of the re-rollable ward save prayer that should have been killed the last one. I can't believe it survived this long Third rail of the game Ward saves do not under any circumstance get re-rolled Done sure I would I would etch that into a stone tablet and hang it in the office Okay pure Uh And then I don't know make the avatar of kane super awesome It not need to be activated just make it awesome. Just make it awesome. Make it awesome We've got the new avatar of kane. Just make it awesome. Make it a cool monster. I can run around. Yes, that's all I want There you go. Sure Make all portions of the army playable Yeah, like have some good strats for which I'll focus or you know, you know, you don't say like murder girl focused Can I ask a question hit me? I'm ready Is har karan in this book Is har karan in this book Sure, why not? I don't know but sure. Why not Like the like the city from broken realms marathi. I understand what used to be anvil guard. Yes Marathi's new capital city. Yes. I mean, yes. Why not put it in the book? Sure Like I'm wondering if maybe this happened this way Because we actually like there's maybe a deeper change because of that narrative than what we even anticipated Like maybe this faction doesn't look like what we thought it was Like I obviously like i'm conspiracy theory right now. Yeah, sure, but But maybe maybe maybe we're underestimating The actual implications of what battle tome are broken realms from marathi did It'd be interesting And the reason we're bringing that up like mike and the chat made made a comment about cane worshiping Executers. Yeah, sure. Like maybe maybe we do get har karan here, which is her city. Sure More integration of the potential integration of the dark elf stuff in a new rules package in this book Right like, you know We're gonna talk about this. I think in a minute about lumineath But maybe maybe lumineath Have settlers gained baked into their book right Like maybe that's where we see the specialized cities that are associated with other races Are in those races books not in a city's book. Sure. Yeah, I could see that So just something to think about because like that that's the way that you stop all the scrolls from getting really big I don't know. Sure Anything else you want to say about doc slash night haunt? I look forward to my ghosts I and my ghost box because it'll fill out the rest of my night haunt to appropriate size units Good glad to hear it Okay Uh, I hope marathi and her new book just fully ascends all the way and doesn't yet just dispatches with this cane nonsense And it's just like not it's me now you feed me cane is dead. I am cane Right just completely dispatches with the pageantry Narratively that's it. That's a narrative thing Okay, tom Here we go This is me putting all my tinfoil hat tom. You ready my favorite My favorite Chaos battle tome and order battle tome first. Let's comment on the all important thing Which is the art on these covers and how it means nothing. This is stock art out of the original core rulebook So read nothing into the art other than They grabbed a stock piece of order art and a stock piece of chaos art that they had from their art assets from the core rulebook So, yeah, that's what that means. Okay Uh Now here's how I want to do this tom. We're going to start the future tinfoil hatting like this Okay Yep What Do you want them to be named both ones that you think they should or you want them to be To me either it doesn't have to be realistic is my point, right? So I want you to give a want And then a what you think they are going to be which there may or may not be a delta there Yeah, okay. Yeah So what is your want? What is your What do you think it is in reality? Desire my reality My want For chaos. Yeah Is a fully redone scaven line With all new sculpts for everything. Okay All of it. I understand All of it everyone Yes, okay, okay And my want for the order battle tone is the grungy united dwarfs Which we're definitely not getting but sure This is the want area. Yep now My prediction. Yes I think it'll be corn Okay And I think it'll be lumina Okay Do you want to do you want to say why you think that's the case? Yeah, um, I think corn needs to be updated. It's one of the the chaos ones that's in most crisis Um, I also think that it I mean corn you really it said that's a cast of white net chaos is in disrepair right now chaos is literally in chaos because you've got corn Skaven beasts arguably sonesh Just all being trash fires. So we have we have the new war cry box dropping this summer Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm like we're on the three-year cycle. It's war cry this summer So my prediction is that we will get the scaven that we've gotten hints at I think we'll be in the war cry box Okay Um, so I think they'll we'll get like a new eschen war cry Box this summer with with another normal chaos warband. So it'll be scaven verse, you know, whatever Mm-hmm for a war cry um And I think for instead for what we'll get for corn is I think we'll get a Revisiting of corn Which just dovetails with this bloodthirster that's dropping for Hmm with kabana With kabana, uh, I think that uh, it's a melee army. It'll provide a nice counterbalance to what's currently in the meta um, and I think that it uh, it could be an interesting Revisiting and it's again like when you look at the time when you look at the resources like it We're getting corn soon And chaos gods tend to get updated quickly When a new addition All right All right, here's mine. What I want Oh, and then luminous, uh, yeah back up the luminous go ahead Because luminous are luminous. Um, I think we're getting more luminous um, and Sure And like just like Like they are another problem faction that just needs to get addressed Mm-hmm And a lot of their stuff just simply needs redesigned Then you you need to have a book in order to To fix some of the problems. Sure. Okay, like star metal weapons should probably be Should probably be double hitting on sexes not doing moral Sure Okay Let's start with chaos what I want I am assuming our releases this year will not bring us any new resculpted lines in aos That's my starting point Okay, I just don't think it's going to happen this year Sure Given that we're because of that because we're now going to eat The pandemic lull Yeah Right like now is when this year is when the pandemic lull and sculpting will come home to roost Right. This these are book updates Yes Because what would have needed to be sculpted to release now would have had to be done in 2020 Okay, right right and we had a bunch of delays and that was like the worst of it UK's under hard lockdown everybody's from home Yes, people can still do some z-cad and all that at home on their computers But like everything's running slow. Everything's way behind Right Okay So we're gonna reap the the now is the time we showed the wind now is the time to reap the whirlwind Yeah, that means no new model ranges this year. Maybe until the very end of the year Right, right Because their limited capacity Was done through all of the 40k stuff we've seen the redesigned lr range the redesigned chaos stuff Like that just took up all the bandwidth and oxygen in the in the in the room, right? Right Like that's where like that's where a bulk of your your market is so that of course that's what they're gonna do great So I think that's gonna be the focus. I think maybe if we get a new army, it's gonna be the end of the year thing like bone reaper style Yep q4 Yep Okay, so given that reality that that's how i'm thinking What I want is how do we make the best out of that situation and what I want in that case Is a new corn book because corn doesn't need any new units I mean maybe a new valkia, but they've shown they can sculpt a single hero. So cool sculpt a new valkia Yep, right Slam dunkaruni Corn has too many freaking units as it is already you get a re sculpted valkia You got a great hero to put in a box or something Jobs are good Yeah, right Excellent just make good use out of everything that they So do you think is that what you want or do you think that's what I want? That's what I want Okay, it's corn. It's corn. Yeah Okay, yeah What I want out of the order battle tome. Let's let's take a little journey through that. Okay It's not cities Because they had a tome celestial It's not daughters because we just saw the daughter's book It's not fire slayers. It's not eidneth because we just saw both of their books Okay, like we can do a hard process of elimination on order. Okay. Yeah. Yeah Uh, it's not ko because fire slayers existed and they're not going to do two dwarf books back to back with two relatively unpopular armies Okay, uh Seraphon had a tome celestial so there are no Okay storm cast just got their book So who does that leave you That leaves you lumineth Okay Right process of elimination There's only two options Because of how how heavily weighted we've been on both order tome celestials and order Uh books All right, right What I want it to be is silveneth Because their current book is And it would be night and it's a fairly old book and it would be really nice But but But The chaos battle tomas gaven. I think they gave the game away in the in the Listen in the description because of the description for this. They said chaos is getting up to some mischief Now, yes, I'm aware that like blah blah blah mischief is the name of a group of rats I don't know if they're that that clever or not. It doesn't matter Okay There they don't put the word mischief Into a description of a chaos battle tome unless they're talking about scaven. That's it. It's that simple What chaos faction Causes mischief Scaven end of list Yep, unless you for some reason did zinge, but that's more schemes than mischief. It's not mischief. There's a difference, right? Yep, yep Like obviously corn is not a mischemaker zinge is a schemer a plotter Yeah, right all of that world shaper plan maker rump shaker Right, but not Yeah mischief maker, okay It's not nergal. We know that because obviously better book already happened right Beasts have their tome celestial so they're out Like they're getting their tome celestial next month so they're out and they're not mischief makers. Anyways, there's only one It's scaven Which makes me sad because that means we're going to get a scaven line or scaven book and probably not the redesign we all want right That's why I was hoping that it wasn't That's why I chose not scaven because I'm hoping that they saw the wisdom of waiting In doing our whole I just think we're getting the book And it's going to be I think they gave the game away with mischief I really do and I don't just mean because that's the a group of writers called a mischief No, because that's they're communicating exactly what they intend indeed indeed okay so like That that's it All right, I just think that's what it is And it's again. It's not going to be something. I know I've seen a lot of chaos dwarves In the in the chat. I'm sure we'd all love to see whatever that is clearly. They've been teasing the oath breakers or Chaos dwarves for a while that one until next year But yeah, that's that's a next year thing Like they got they got to stretch that way out No, they got to drop more hints for another year before we get that thing Yeah It's just and again because they'd have to introduce a whole new range We're probably not getting a whole new range I agree with that At least not in the first half of the year Yeah What is the order and so what is the order battle tome? Actually, it's totally luminous. Of course. It's luminous Are you out of your mind? It's not going to be a sylvaneth book Here's the easy way, you know, it's actually luminous. I've already pointed out that there's only two potential books sylvaneth and luminous Because of process of elimination Okay, so ask yourself who needs the book more. It's not that one It's that easy Okay, that's not how these things work Like the sea dock Yeah Yeah, like it's of course, it's going to be luminous well, and we know like One of the one of the gw folks was on stream not too long ago like last year and he's like, oh, we have so much more luminous to come Right, like they literally said that on stream Like yes, it's another and no, it's not terrian. No, it'll just be another temple. It'll just be more technically it'll be Water temple and and warhip. By the way, they're trotting this out. We could have luminous books every year for the next five years Like it's just Which let's be clear like that's like Luminous or the new stormcast Yeah, sure. Absolutely true. I everybody's like not more stormcast. I'm like more stormcast But they were like three years without a release. What are you talking about? Oh, no luminous or where the cash cow is right now. Yeah, absolutely. They're selling these elves like hot cakes So they know elves so So, I mean, I just think it's going to be scaven and luminous. Do I want it to be something else? Yes Because I want the scaven line resculpted or at least a lot of stuff uh updated but Here we are so um You know, I just I don't want to burst anyone's bubble and and by the way If I've turns out we're right like if it turns out to be sylvaneth, I'm going to be thrilled Just thrilled Uh, somebody asked could it be malaria and no see previous comment about sculpting a whole army We're just I don't know. I don't believe in 2022 For the very least the first half to three quarters of the year. We're going to get a whole new army release Yeah, they burn all the studio on doing 40k and they just didn't have the time to do a bunch of box of island of blood again, but it's luminous versus uh old scaven Sure Yeah, yeah, just island of blood 2022. It's back, baby And so you get clan rats, but you get storm fiends this time Um, and you get the the rocket launcher scaven for your engineer equivalent and then uh, you get hypothetically in that mix you get wardens Sword masters Kangaroo riders and a new hero Yeah, I mean like I think for the luminous part three You're going to get like a new book with one new hero. Maybe a maybe a cross booze type unit Maybe that's what we can afford this year. You know, maybe we can like No, no, no, no, no, I'm just saying that's your best case scenario We'll do for luminous. No, yeah, I'm calling it. No, I'm calling we get a new temple And that means that we get one one new infantry to unit one new Uh monster unit like elemental monster an associated hero and So like one new One new elementary Unit one new hero one new monster. That's what I'm calling. Okay. Okay Like a new like a new fox slash mountain guy is what you're saying Yeah, a new fox slash mountain. Um, that's going to be like a hippo Um, and then you're going to get some type of like Roo rider equivalent that is also, um That uh, that is like their elementary and then some like hero riding a wave. Yeah, um Tom, I have never wanted to be wrong about a prediction more It's what that's what that openly stated I'm just assuming in 2022. We officially live in the worst timeline And and like this is the just I'm assuming we just live in the darkest timeline And this is what we're gonna get as as as as kiran already said I think that this is the case by the way because everything was already sculpted Like the luminous stuff was all done at once. I I firmly believe this and that they have literally just cut it out In like they've parted it out Like I think that luminous so like I don't I think that they are going to be the exception to the sculpting rule Because I think they were already done And this is a plug-and-play situation where they can grab those send them to the printers And just produce what they need Gotcha. Yeah Um, I again, I hope I'm wrong And I hope I'm wrong on both of these I really really do And for the alimentary these are gonna be associated with water. They'll use whips or something like that without water whips Like or flails something like all water flails Like flippy Sure, it's fishy Okay And and hippos So let's talk here at the end just a quick timeline. So this is how that all shakes out, right? We're talking about winter spring summer. So this is the first half of the year effectively Yeah, right And so we know this is our six battle tomes for the first half of the year Uh, who do you want to see beyond this? Who are your picks? Like if you get let's let's say tom for the rest of the year You get three more battle tomes. I'm gonna give you three Battle tomes for the rest of the year. So we get nine total this year new army or Refreshes, I don't care. You get three battle tomes. They can be whatever you want. What's your want? What's your what's your your think? For like what's beyond this By the way, we might get more than that battle tomes. I'm just saying let's let's limit it to three to make it interesting get Okay Revisited cities Okay So like would this be specifically dawn bringer crusades? Basically, okay dawn bringer Uh, and I would accept cities 2.0. Sure sure So like settler gain heart for on and something that you like other new cities that aren't the prior cities. Yeah, you got it. Sure. Um Who gets uh beastman that's obvious and beasts. Yeah, sure Beats again, like if we only got three for the rest of the year Understanding that there is a lot more than three armies that need updating. Yep. Yeah, okay Yep So like we all accept that there would be there like we're gonna get to the end of 2022 and there's gonna be some losers here Yep, right. You just we're not we're not gonna all we're just with this being the first half of the year Unless the second half of the year is similarly packed plus Yep. Yep, then we're gonna have people who come out of 2022 still running on fumes Yeah, right. Yeah It's almost why I'm not sure I want a new army because if we if we get a whole new army, that's just It's so much bandwidth. It's so except but anyways if I had to pick three I wouldn't pick anything new as much as I'd love to see what malaria is cooking As much as I'd love to see cast orbs I don't disagree with any of those things. I think they're all super cool. Like I am I am Deeply excited for if Tyrion brings angel elves or malaria and brings shadow demon elves Like oh man a bunch of shadow demon dragons Uh, it sounds amazing, right or cast orbs rolling in big aosified artillery trains and stuff There's like death trains That sounds incredible But I just are you are you gonna are you gonna get that army if they release it I mean It would be the first dwarf army I'd ever own in my life. I would say give me pause It could it could Enrapture me tom. What if you paint it like thomas the train and you do like zinge blue? Sure, I I don't know but like I said it it it could be the first dwarf army I've ever bought I'll say that much if it was cool enough at any rate um My feeling on the three that like absolutely We should see well, there's a notable grand alliance missing From the first half of the year. So let's just start there Destructor destruction, right? so My picks For the three I would like to see Okay Would be Gits and ogres. I'm gonna give two to destruction in the back half of the year Wow All right, and then beasts as the third one Yep Those are my picks There are other ones that need it. I'm sorry corn Like I really am You know that I wanted you at the cast battle to tell me to be them and hey, maybe I'll be wrong Maybe it will be corn So can I can I throw something say something? But those would be my three Yep, can I say that I'm kind of interracial? I think that there should be a city's book released every year Sure, just always like that we should it should be a known quantity that there's a city's book every year Yep, I do and I think that it and it should be like pick three realms Yeah, just explore the cities in those realms and explore the cities in those realms. Sure. That's it. They should exactly They should absolutely do that every year Yeah, and then tying them in with the Like you get a new army release in the spring Like some new sculpted thing like malaria and zelver you get some new Wharf army or whatever And then in the back half of that year that army gets integrated into one of the cities In addition to the other that are released in the in that stuff. Does that make sense? Sure, and they And they do a release like that every single year. I firmly believe that I think that'd be awesome It'd be fantastic. I'd have zero issue with that And and that's all like just reusing kits that are already especially if it was expansion And so you didn't need to have it because like if you if you have the city you love and you want it You're good. You know, this is just new cities Right, so it's not replacing your old functionality Right, and that's what I'm saying like you're not reprinting hammer hall Yeah That that like so you're only reprinting the hammer hall city book with those types of cities or equivalents Once every four years. Yeah, yeah As you're cycling through these Yep Like it just to me like we've said it before about like cities to all new realms but like I think that this game is broad enough that you could easily do cities like that um And as somebody said what about more luminous? Yeah, they get included in one of those books in the Haitian cities. Sure I mean it again, it writes itself um So that seems like low-hanging fruit. I don't think they'll they'll do that or not, but that's what I would do. Yep Uh, okay Uh I don't know Dan doubtful at this point. I doubt it um I think that I'm glad we got some kind of roadmap So I want to talk about the positive here at the end just to leave on this I like this sort of thing especially right now in a rough time. I know it's hard for them to roadmap right now I know we're still in the middle of a lot of disruptions rolled by just supply chains and things like that I know that's still going on So for them to put this out right now says they have a pretty high confidence that they'll be able to hit this They're they're just doing quarters and that's fine. I'm okay with it I hope that as we come out of the others. What's that? I think from like doing quarters. I don't need specific month releases Just be like here's the general order of where we're going Yeah, I agreed I I would hope that as we get on the other side of all of this, hopefully over the next year Yep That we can go either with a longer roadmap where we could dial it into months or something like that right or whatever You know that maybe we can That maybe we could see more than theoretically like six months. I think it'd be great Uh, so I like this concept. Please keep expanding on it. Uh, I'm I'm thank you for doing it G. W. This is good. This is their current rough estimate. This is all subject to change. Yes. Good. Great point hoops Um, but I'm I'm amazed they decided to release this now in the with the world being how it is I'm impressed So I say keep it up. Please refine it and expand it Um And uh, and let's go from there. All right. Cool. That brings us to the end That's everything All right, man. Well anything else you want to say before we call it a night tom I We really didn't talk about it, but it's been a great seven years It has it really has here's to many more years to come Yeah, they keep making they keep making stuff. We'll keep talking about warhammer every week every wednesday Every wednesday. It's been seven years the number of nervel It has Yes, I didn't say I didn't we already passed my sladesh celebration last year. I didn't even think about it so maybe we you know, this is the like Next year If we don't end up getting a corn book this year, maybe it comes out at the beginning next year And we'll be talking about it like it releases in january and on our eighth anniversary We'll have a corn book and maybe that'll be nice how that all lines up That would be wonderful. Wouldn't it there we go Well, it's a seven more years. How's that sound? There you go At least I mean you might you might be dead by then but Um, I'll you know, I got seven more years in me. I'm all right. You got seven more years. Okay good Let's let's aim for that. Hey, let's aim for 10 and then it'll be like the longest commitment that I've ever had in my life But we'll do it everybody hit like hit subscribe. Thank you everybody for coming to the seventh seventh seven-year anniversary, whatever this is spectacular To us talking about all these releases and roadmaps and doing this future planning We're so glad that all of you have continued to join us on this journey. We love all of you And we very much appreciate you watching As always, thank you tom for coming along on this journey with me. Thank you to all who watched we very much appreciate it Uh, don't forget to hit those buttons and as always We'll see you next wednesday