 Okay. Hello, everyone. This is the November 16th meeting of the Amherst Transportation Advisory Committee. We can read the little statement. Kim, do you have the statement, but I have it too. All right, so pursuant to the Acts chapter 20 of the Acts of 2021 and extended chapter 22 of the Acts of 22. This meeting is being conducted via remote means. Members of the public who wish to access a meeting may do so via Zoom or telephone. And no in-person attendance will be permitted, but every effort will be made to assure that the public can adequately access the proceedings in real time. Okay. And then I'm just, I know that Amber really always appreciates it if we do a roll call out loud and then it's in the notes. So, um, Stefan had told me that he was not available to be here. But, um, so I'm here and if everybody else can just say hi. Yeah, mox is here. I'm here. Quick ones from here. And Eve Vogel is here and Guilford of course is here. Okay. All right. Um, so as I had said in the email when I sent out the agenda. I mean, I would like to. You know, spend some of our a good part of our meeting talking about that item for, you know, the role attack and TSO and the council and. You know, what tech is and all those kind of like bigger questions and also to get input from the members. But just before we get to that, if it's okay. It'd be great to just have some updates. Just these quick updates. So under item, so item 2 was public comment period. We don't have any members of the public here except for Eve. And item 3 was about updates. And so the 1st 1 was proposed street lights policy. So my understanding. Is that the proposed street lights policy from counselor Teneke and Devon got there was referred to the town manager. By TSO at TSO's last meeting. And, um, and that basically in the town manager would lead staff looking into it and providing feedback. So, Guilford, do you have any updates on that at all? No. Okay. My computer is going to do something weird here. Got to stop it. Don't let it do a windows update. It's doing, it's doing a Dell update. Right. Hopefully I stopped it. Okay. Sorry. Thank you. And then the, the next 1 was just the traffic safety zone at Cushman with the Cushman Children's Center. So I'd included in the information I sent out to the members, just the boat. Both the memo that was from counselors Griezmer and Shane about that with their proposal of what changes should take place. But at the last council meeting on Monday. It was referred to TSO with a request for tech input and. There was a request to that they report back to the council on December 18th. And that it was also okay at that time if they realized that they didn't have time to get to it. Before the new council, if they carried it over, but they wanted an update. And one of the things that had come up during the town council discussion was whether, and I had included. The town manager's memo to before that safety zone provision of the mass general laws was adopted is whether. The like adequate, you know, engineering and safety studies had already been conducted. Because the memo from the counselors didn't mention that at all. It actually hasn't been conducted. So. And I think, and under the statue. As the town manager's memo said, it said that you have to conduct those studies before you create one of these zones. Yes. So, okay. So I'm sorry, did you say that a study has not been conducted? No. Right. No. So do you think that that would be. Do you have any information go for him when you think that that would happen or. So the consultant we use for that stuff is giving me a price and I probably in a week or so. So would the idea be that they would conduct it, I guess, like once the UMass students are back to. Yes, sometime in the early spring or something. Yes, I mean, what we did was a stop sign study and a rough. A rough speed study, but it doesn't meet the requirements that's actually in that document for mass to. And do you have any information? I was curious, and I was actually thinking of sending this out to a listserv like a statewide. List serve, but do you have information on other communities that have adopted. These traffic safety zones. I think everybody is the top is actually. Passing the, they're doing what they need to do it, but they some, I don't know if anybody's actually done 1. Like has actually created them. I don't know. Yeah. Okay. I was just curious about it. Maybe I'll send it out to the listserv anyway. Yeah. Are you going to get the transportation guys base state to do it? Well, that's what I mean. Yeah. That's the list of I was thinking of that goes out to all the. Well, I work with those guys and that goes out to all the deep views and consultants and stuff. If anybody had any information, I thought. But I didn't want to, you know, repeat what anybody's already done. I mean, we have an ass. Yeah. And Joe and Amber just for the record. So Joe is now here too. Thank you for joining us Joe. Everybody thank you. Okay. So we're just going through the informational updates. I have a question about the safety zone. And the proposed. I'm just looking at what safety zones are. And so are these like school zones? Are those also safe? Is that a safety zone? Because I see it says the safety zone should contain one or one or more. I thought it said more than one. Sorry, I read that incorrectly. One or more areas that potential conflicts. But are those schools are school zones included or is that a special school? The school zone exists already. So what kind of extended school zone with some changes to these other things. Got it. Okay. And then I, I, one thing that's come up to right is because the safe reach to school program, which is our next item, but that. Because safe reach to school got expanded to be K through 12. Yeah. I mean, I used to just be K through eighth grade. Is that you could now have like school zone signs, like at the high schools, for example, where they're not currently there. I don't know. Which is. Yeah. We haven't, we haven't done it. Yeah. Yeah, you know, I mean, I only know this because now my kids. Yes, they drive the freaking cars to the high school, which is easily walk a ball distance. How far do you live again? I am ashamed to admit this. I would hang your head in shame. Yeah, I am. I'm ashamed. I was shamed. And, but anyway, especially with all the new drivers that intersection, you know, when you're come, the intersection you take to get into the school from triangle. Triangle is so treacherous, especially for new drivers. Are you talking about if you're up the hill? There's only one. Yeah, I don't know what because. Because I know on the triangle, but I was thinking about the one Taylor street. I think it's the it's Taylor or a lot. Mattoon Mattoon. Yeah, Mattoon does a weird by the, by the baseball fields right there, whatever that is, it is so dangerous. But I was also thinking about the one like on the curve, like then now there's a flashing crosswalk, like them, the rectangular rapid flashing beacons the one at the top. That's the one. That's the one. The Amherst college dorms and stuff. Oh yeah. Yeah, that's the one. Sure. But then I also find actually, because my child misses the bus way too often in the morning. And I'm always driving him. But I also find that on, if I'm on main street at the triangle intersection. That it's really hard when there's a lot of traffic coming into town. And that the way that it's angled, you know, the other roadway is that you go past the traffic signal. I mean, sometimes I don't, but a lot of times people are kind of going past the traffic signal, but then you can't because it's not posted anywhere except for like above. You can't actually see like when it's going to change, but then there's so much like oncoming traffic and it never really feels like very comfortable to me. So now I waited the stop line, which is before the little street. That goes over to route nine, but, but people think that that's really weird. But if you actually go into the intersection to like hang out and wait to do a left turn, you can't see the streetlight. Yeah, there's so I, so I wonder if there might be a way that signal. Sorry. I wonder if there might be a way of improving, you know, using the new guidelines then to help improve right around the immediate area of the high school, because there are also a couple, you know, students are, I don't know what that neighborhood is and we've heard about this from multiple people and there have been requests in the past. So the high school dumps out onto triangle right this like that road where there is one way back on to, I don't know. And pray street it's called pray street and is a cross from that. Yeah, the high school dumps out Matune goes all the way around dumps back out on triangle. Then the next intersection down is pray and chestnut. But before that that that neighborhood that's behind I don't know what that neighborhood is back. I mean, like, like Taylor and stuff like over there. Oh, caught it in like, no, no, the one across I'm sorry I'm not being very clear, but people are crossing from they use that as a kind of shortcut to get to from like downtown between the school and town basically so you can cut across back into behind. Well, here we can like pull up a map or something. Yeah, Smith Street, and I know that their kids are using that all the time in the morning. You know, there's no crosswalk there. I don't know I feel like that's pretty dangerous intersection to. I mean, you know, these are still kids, sometimes not you know kids who don't really understand roadways very well. Maybe there are some improvements that you know with this new newer law we might be able to make. Oh, you think with the safety zone. Does that what you were thinking? Yes. I don't know but you don't think so. It's okay. You know, I watched that we get to watch we get firsthand to see some of the coolest stuff. Things I've never seen people do before. I watched a lady who was definitely in a straight lane in their right turn lane, go left across a line of traffic that was turning left, let's cut off the traffic that was going straight. I mean, and she wasn't. I don't think anyone in here is in the age category she's in and we're all younger she is. It's, it's like people, I don't know what people just do what they want to do. I've been seeing people who live in some of the rental properties on say, like South prospect and. Yes, well South prospect especially I guess is like they're they drive in like against the one way because it's like much more convenient for them than going around. Yeah, that happens a lot. I would suggest Kim. So the process that the Cushman. This Cushman proposal went through is there basically saying look on we've been contacted by the board. We've been contacted by the parents to have kind of brought this up and so we're we have a developed idea and this is what we want to do. I think we probably would want to just meet with Mickey and Talib. Maybe a couple of, you know, maybe the student council at the high school. Yeah, that's a good idea. Yeah, in the same way. I'm not sure that you know us just winging in and saying no, I agree. I think it's just it probably, I think it's worth a conversation and I know, I think there would be receptivity from the leadership at the school. But I feel like you can also start to. I mean, though, Guilford I guess can tell it, like if we, if around the high school like on triangle was like signed as a school zone. Yeah, because now high schools can be a school zone. So Guilford, you said you didn't have any of the signs. But is there anything else besides the signs needed to create a school zone and to sign it near the high school, the high school. We can look at it. But you know, it can also just be like one of those things that flashes at the time schools getting in and out because those are the problem times. That allows you to do that. Which, you know, I think that seems to make a lot of sense because especially during the school year, especially I think at like, you know, the Monday, Wednesday, Friday, which are the school starts at 905 and UMass starts at nine. So classes are at nine. So I think, I don't know, I feel like that's not a bad idea, but. So, I mean, the thing you're talking about was what, whether to support. Right first study at kushman. Yeah, no, I mean, this is off topic. So, but the other thing was is that we actually haven't received a referral yet from TSO like I know TSO is meeting after tack tonight. And I guess it would be up to TSO 1 if they're going to take it up this session or if they're going to carry it over to 2024 and to what type of feedback they want from tack. And so, so I just wanted to bring it up as and just to, you know, have it on people's radar. So we'll see what TSO decides and. Yeah, but I mean, I guess in the absence of a traffic study, how can we, and, and you know, it's really a kind of niche part of town, right? Not many people are traveling on that part of town unless really they live there. No one's. Bushman. Yeah, that. You're saying on Henry street on Henry street. It's a cut through. For what? Yeah. It's a cut through. For what? Tell me, I don't know. People coming from like Pellum going to UMass or go through there if they're going to the north end of the town or going. I see. I see. Okay. Yeah. Okay. They go up anything going up northeast street. Yeah. They'll cut through there. And if they don't have to go to there or if they're going up to Leverett or whatever, they'll. No traffic. No traffic. Yeah. And Leverett. The school written shoots very come that way too. Oh, right. But can we teach young drivers how to take a left against traffic? That's all I want to say. Left. If we figure that out, can we expand it to adults? Yeah. And can we teach people to park in the back and parking backing in. It's actually doing better. It is. Yeah, I've seen it a lot. Recently that they hadn't been downtown in two years. And when they were outraged and they said nobody sensible would ever design this and they parked front end. So got that. My kid won't go down. Won't park downtown because of that. Okay, but we digress, right? Yeah. We digress. Well, consider how close you look to that. Don't even. Okay. So, let's see safe routes to school. So Chris and I had met with the superintendent, I guess more than a month ago now. And Chris, have you heard anything else from the schools? I have not. No, I think I'm getting. I think I'm getting back on the agenda, but it's a little bit unclear when. So, you know, my request to. Doug slaughter was to be a convener. Between, you know, kind of various entities dealing with transportation on the new school site. And the two intersections off of the school site. And he didn't say no, but wanted to just kind of check and make sure that he wasn't stepping on anybody's toes. That makes sense. And I said that I would follow up in a month if I hadn't heard so I haven't heard from him. So I'm caught. I've contacted Deb to get back on the agenda. To probably just, I would imagine he might cancel the meeting and just send me a note, but we'll see what he says. I have met with the parents too. I think I must have said this to you Tracy or somebody, but we are going to do the, the Massachusetts day. The December 1. No, not the December 1, we're going to do the spring time. Awesome. Yeah. Yeah. So the parents are excited to do that. So it's just a matter of whether or not we can get the ball rolling on, you know, just kind of a conversation. And then I, and I was on the safe routes to school. Did you have any other updates? Sorry. Chris, not to cut you off. Oh, I just said that if it's kind of like a no, or something mushy from the superintendent's office. You'll, you'll probably be hearing from me. It's the same request. I'll just keep looking for somebody being willing to convene. Okay, so I sat in on a webinar yesterday on the safe routes to school program. And one thing that Chris and I had talked to schools about Chris is mainly had those conversations about with like the teachers and like other people at the schools who were. One to get involved with safe routes to school is that the safe routes to school program. They actually have like desi approved curriculum. Both for students on safe routes to school and also for training, like the trainers. What's different. Desi is the department of elementary and secondary education. So they actually have like approved curriculum. Where they can go into schools and teach it. And they also like to really like train the trainers like to actually train the teachers and they offer that as well. It's like a 10 hour course, you know, you get, you know, professional development credits for it. And then, and then that would enable like in future years. And as we had talked about with the seminar to like the fire prevention program and things that it could be sustained, you know, because people in the district would be like leading those classes each year. But the thing that was interesting to me is I didn't realize that like it was all like vetted through the department of elementary and secondary education and so on. I did. I did hook Doug up Doug slaughter wanted to meet with our Western mass safe routes coordinator. And the curriculum director of the school district. So, I'm pretty sure that meeting got set up. I don't know if it has occurred. It's excellent. And I mean, the Western mass safe route school coordinator is pretty amazing. So I'm sure she'll do a good job. And then okay road project updates. Dpw. So Gilbert, do you have any more updates for us on, I don't know, Pomeroy or anything else signage on route nine or. Everything is done on route nine. So yeah, I had a question about the intersection of. University drive and route nine and the bike boxes like there's all the signage for bike boxes on the route nine side like with the same bike boxes here and so I'm like, are those going to be painted before the winter. I don't know. I don't know if they'll be painted. But I think he's almost I think they're almost done so. But it's in the roadway right it's just not painted. So, yes, it's been it's been ground in I could suppose to go there. Okay. Because I think there's at least like four signs about like the bike boxes, like at each corner of the intersection. Yes. Yeah, cool. And so for anybody doesn't know the bike boxes are set up is like safer ways for bicyclists to make left turns like across traffic, where they can like wait in the bike box area and then they can proceed. Like almost like a pedestrian or something like get across the intersection and not have to wait in the left turning lane, which although some cyclists feel really comfortable with that many do not. So, so the bike boxes are set up as an alternative where they wait more closer to the sidewalk. So, but I did have a question though I am confused like with some of the bike signage on North Hampton Road, you know going towards University Drive because there's a place where it says like the bike route ends which it's just I guess west of Blue Hills Road. Yeah, just going to sidewalk, but what to say like the bike route ends but then literally like, you know just a few feet after that it says bike. And then like the bike lane. I don't know it's just sort of weird like because one I didn't even know like what is the official biker and aren't bike route sometimes bike lanes and some. It's sort of weird to have this end sign and then there's like a lot of other bike infrastructure. Yeah, I mean I suppose to tell you to go on to the sidewalk and use the wider sidewalk. But that's actually where it and no see that end of bike route is where the at Blue Hills wider path ends because the wider path ends it. I know I guess you're right. Yeah. Okay. You might be right. It begins. It begins up out towards Lincoln. So it probably ends at Blue Hills. So it probably means to get off the bike path and get on the road. Right. It's just sort of weird because then just like a past it then you have like bike. I mean can bike routes be on road or do bike routes have to be off road. Well, they didn't. There's this huge concrete duck bank on the right side of the road there. And they couldn't move it. So what they did was instead of moving it, they moved the bike lane onto the side of the road with the sidewalk is and narrowed down the shoulder. And then when you get to Blue Hills, you have Blue Hills is at the bottom, then you get back on route nine because at that point the duck bank goes deeper. Yeah, yeah. I just meant like in terms of signage like because it's still the bike lane is the bike route at that point right like. It has been designated off the sidewalk. Yeah. They came up with it. They have a bunch of signs we don't agree with either but it's their road. Okay. Okay. Because also just like, you know, visually, like if you have a lot of different signs and people just end up getting confused if you don't need them. But okay. And then, oh, and I was wondering to just about, I mean, it sounds like we need to talk to the state about it right. If we have concerns, we could ask. If you want, yeah, if you want to make a change, it's with the state. If we can't figure it out, how can we expect people who aren't traffic geeks to figure it out? Well, I mean that's something we need to talk to the state about right. Well, so on route nine there used to be I'm glad that this is finally gone there used to be like sign for like park and ride lot because a long time ago like 20 years ago there was a park and ride lot at the big white plaza. But then it got discontinued. And then that park and ride lot sign with an arrow was there for like 10 years or something after it got discontinued. So like people could turn and then they're whatever. Yeah. Access signage can be challenging. Did Amherst get those four foot passing signs yet? Yeah. Go around. Okay. Do you know? Yeah, we got them. We're holding them for when it starts getting nasty outside for something to do. You can't put them in that right to the ground will be frozen. Well, they're pretty much you're there's a lot of leeway and where you can put them so like if you look on route nine and Hadley they're sticking out the state is sticking them on existing posts. So we're going to probably go that same route. Okay, interesting. So how many of them did you get? More than we probably should have gotten but there's a lot. There's a lot of them. Okay. I mean, I noticed the ones in Hadley seems like they have a lot to like they seem to be up on a lot of corridors, but. Well, the state put them up on all there. So like route nine and Hadley is all a state road. But like Amity at the end of the town line, there's one there I think. When you're entering Hadley. Well, yeah, and I guess like 47 in Hadley right that is the state and actually that's Hadley. So I've seen a bunch like that seemed like Hadley put them up. Yeah, they're probably putting them up. I mean they were giving them away like they were. No, I know, yeah. I still wish they didn't just have bicycles, but that's a different car stage. So, okay. You know, like once those are up to do some kind of like ride and. That gets them like PR for those signs and also the law. Okay. So, all right, so now we're at the rule attack and. TSO and the council and everything and so. I mean, I just. You know, because a lot of questions have come up and it's actually interesting too, because there's actually an item. On the TSO agenda for tonight, like, which is right after our meeting. And part of it is they're talking about like how they have outreach to committees and use committees and communicate with committees and so on and so. I mean, it's a struggle, not just with our committee, but also with other committees. And so I really just wanted to. I mean, I was thinking about it too, because of the new council is so we wrote that other memo back in 2022. When there was a new council and there had been. I mean, 1, there was a period when. You know, the idea was like, oh, we probably won't have tech anymore and there were some misconceptions about what tech is or what tech does. And so with all those new, there were a lot of new counselors and we wanted to just have a memo just to kind of clear up. Like what tech is and know that we're advisory and that we've had like a positive role in a lot of projects. So 1 thought I had is like, whether we'd want to. I know that they're mainly in comments who got reelected to the council. Who will be serving in the new council, but if we wanted to do something similar or so on so. I mean, it wouldn't have to just change the date and send it again. Yeah, remind me. I mean, if we had any, well, I'll pull it up a lot, but you know, if we had any, if we had anything we wanted to add, you know, I've been like, when I look back on this council. And what tack has contributed to. Compared to the last council, like I don't feel like tack has done very much. Well, we have to is like they, right. They haven't referred things to us. So, I honestly think it's fine just to send what we have there because it shows the big things we've done in the past. Gives them an idea of what we can do because we know we didn't get asked to do a lot of what we could have done right this time round. So let's give them give them sort of the big picture and hopefully this time, you know, things will get sorted, but we'll see. Yeah, right. I just pulled it up and right the last time we just reminded people, particularly again, because there were more new counselors is like, here's the vision statement of tack. And here's a different projects that we got involved with. And, and, and then there was another document. I mean, it's pretty much true. I think we're still in the same place almost that we were like two years ago. Right. But we also made a lot of progress in years before that. And I mean, we made a lot of progress. And then nobody's using us. And, and also they're there, frankly, haven't been a lot of like real policies put forward in the last two years like people. I don't know. Well, and I was also thinking about because TSO, the last few meetings, I think it's on the agenda again tonight is like talking about North Pleasant Street, like the north, north of campus. You know, from the roundabout, like up to talking about that. They're talking about it. They've been talking about the last few meetings and I said, well, you know, tack, we did the site visits and but nobody ever contacted tack about it. I didn't even talk to me about it. I was told it was being put off the next year. Oh, well, there you go. So, I mean, it definitely seems like there could be maybe that should be in part of the outreach memo to to make sure that they know are talking to the right staff and committees who've already looked at these things. And like, right, I mean, go for DPW has like drawn up detailed plans and everything. So, well, I don't think anyone really knows. I mean, if you looked at all of the counselors, like statements, like, it's as if they don't know there's a like grand plan or there could be a grand plan or there should be a grand plan about, you know, when certain roads or sidewalks get repaired or why they get repaired or, you know, I, it's annoying. It's really, I'm super annoyed that we sit here and we are thoughtful body, and we don't. We don't get used. And they're, you know, the counselors I see have way too much on their plate, like so many things like doesn't make sense. Why we're twiddling our thumbs. That's the kind of thing I think we should put in our preamble. When you mentioned that the street lights policy has been referred to the town manager. Is, is that also a path where the tack would be used? I mean, could Paul just turn and refer the street light policy to us for feedback or do we kind of have to be working at the behest of a counselor or counselors. So it's interesting, right? So we are, I mean, tack is a committee that was created. Like it's under the jurisdiction of the town manager, right? The town manager is the person who is responsible for appointing people to the tack. Like we are not a council committee per se. So in my view, you can have staff, staff can ask tack for feedback. I mean, there are a number of reasons that got referred. I mean, one thing is that the one aspect was that the most recent version and most of the versions of the street lights policy since it was first introduced to the council are like, it's super detailed in terms of like, what is the policy and some people felt like some of those details should just be left to staff, you know, or some of them could be included in a bylaw or something and particularly because the counselors are so busy, some counselors feel like they should be having like kind of a wider perspective about how they feel generally about street lights and leave like a lot of the technical details, including technical details that will get out of date. Like under any different jurisdiction than a council policy per se. Yeah, it was too kind of hard, I think, to like separate all those pieces out. And so. Well, yeah, I mean, from my perspective, I can, I can see why a counselor would think that it's just a little weird that, you know, we sort of exist and I know we sort of exist as a I don't know, by fiat or whatever as a result of the town manager but I presumably it's so the council could use us but then they just referred it to the town manager and not to us. And, you know, we've never really been formally brought in on the street light policy which kind of fits squarely within our mission and it's a big thing that the council So one of the things was that that the some people in the TSO and the sponsors. One of whom is a TSO member and one of whom isn't like felt like it should not just be something that's just referred to attack. Because they felt like there's other elements of it, including on like human health and other things so they thought that if tack. It was only tack that that wouldn't address like these other concerns. So they so and that and that's why to, you know, there had also been a proposal to create a task force about the street lights that would pull in like all these different viewpoints beyond transportation. But I think that the TSO was hesitant to support that. And so they had to create another committee and so on and so just to move it forward in some way before the end of this council. TSO put it in the hands of the town manager. So at some point, I would assume that it would in order to be adopted. It would probably come back to TSO and they could ask for tax input or also could support the creation of a task force or you know there's many different ways it could go. Because they really said it wasn't going to get resolved all by TSO. You know, in the next month and so they wanted to do something and so that's what they did. But yeah, but like, I mean, that's an example and right. And I, and one reason I mean, and I was planning to speak to TSO tonight, but I mean, one of my comments would be that in some cases I have commented on transportation topics in town, including the street lights policy because they're not being referred. And this is something like I think about these issues like all day every day. And so when I see these things happening. Like I still want to weigh in. And so sometimes I'm just weighing in as myself because again, nobody asked tack what we think. But yeah, I mean, but this is when I brought up like when I've asked counselors. Oh, like, is this whatever this transportation related issues is ever going to come to talk and he and I've been told no there's already so many people looking at it like we don't need tax input or Oh, yeah, great. So maybe all of us should just go to the TSO tonight as the public and be like, Hey, do you know this other committee exists and we're here and willing and actually able to tackle these issues. I mean, this has been a problem since the change in right since the change in form of government and it's always just been swept under the carpet and, you know, various reasons whatever it doesn't matter. We just got to keep pounding on the door to either get in or get out. Right. Yeah, or you don't because I mean, yeah, sure it'd be nice to have a committee and all this stuff but maybe we don't need one. You know, maybe so is the way to go. That's fine. But then, you know, a couple of years later they're going to realize they've been off more than they can chew. But I mean, I mean, it's so ridiculous. I know, but I mean, some people make decisions that way, unfortunately, and I don't know, but this limbo needs to stop. Oh, and I think, yeah, and I mean, again, that's why I have comments for TSO, you know, about it just because I think to like the more uncertainty there is about what is tack what can tech do what does text role like when the more you have those questions, the least likely it is for counselors to be like, oh, let's refer it to tack, right. So, but I like the idea of resending tack this memo. I mean the council the memo and we could even say, like, hey, this is the memo and it all still applies so I do think we need to have a stronger like preamble to the memo memo. Okay, I think we have to say like, we have all been doing this for a long time we are all professionals, and we don't need to exist if you're not using us. I feel very strongly about this because we are all professionals we're all taking time out of our very busy days or time with our family to do this work, because we are committed to it. And I'm sick of like being overlooked, like I want to make this town better I want to make our streets better I want to make it safer and better, but if I'm not getting used, I have other things I can do. Oh, for sure. So Kim I mean in that vein right do we want to, I mean I would suggest maybe we send again this 2022 memo with like some kind of cover and that right now we take a motion of exactly what message we want to send. And then we could all vote and say yeah I think we should because anonymously at the meeting that we had right before the TSO meeting we agreed. I mean do you have some. I think we'd have to be careful with that just with a, you know, Roberts rulesy stuff, but we can certainly talk about it we can amend the memo that was included but I mean, it keep it as simple as Kim was saying right I do you want to saw you don't deal with it, you know, is no point in beating around the bush on this one. Yeah, I mean what do we have to lose we have nothing to lose because we haven't been asked to do anything, even though we're all here, and we're passionate and professionals and interested and have some important advice. And actually, we can say that we want clarification and, like, I mean, I'll just, okay I don't need to. But I think it's a really good idea to resend this memo and just, but we put it I just put it with the cover and like say tonight, like we talked about it. Yes. So, yeah, I wouldn't even say we're seeking clarification, I would just put it as simply as Kim was saying, either you want us. Because we don't need to continue to do this we can do this in another form, like we can work on just straight is safe streets to school, we can do that outside of this. Right. Yeah. Maybe we need to, you know, come up to New York and fix the GW after Chris Christie's debacle. I mean, I guess the question I would ask you guys is if, what if they say no, we don't want you. Are you guys fine with that. Yes. Yeah, absolutely. I mean part of where I'm coming from is I'm thinking about the whole history of this and all the way back to the public transportation and bicycle committee was, which was created by both of us. Yeah, right. And the long before we were on it was created by a bunch of advocates who felt like, you know, there needed to be a body that was, I mean, to me the alternative world has always been like, instead of waiting to be told what to do like that. You know, there was a tech charge that should have been amended never was, but it basically says tack has all kinds of potential roles and responsibilities. You know that you guys basically could just say, we're going to do these things, whether or not people get referred to us or not, because, you know, they won't ever change our charge and they're still in our charge. You know, and they include things like reviewing planning and development they include. And PTBC was very explicitly about advocacy that got a little bit watered down in the tech charge but, you know, that's very much part of the history of what the institution was created to do and the tack in theory was a merge of PTBC and, you know, public work so anyway, it is sort of the inheritor of that. But anyway, I just wanted to say that that that sort of, to me has always been the other option is to say, we're going to do what we were created to do whether town wants it or not. You know what I mean, because we're representing the citizens of the town and not just the whatever. The government, the new government style we're representing the town managers, you know, I mean, yeah, because that was what it was created to do, you know, a path of it way back one. Anyway, I'm not saying that's what you should do I'm just saying that to me those are the sort of the two choices maybe I wouldn't just throw that one out without thinking about it. In that vein Eve. I think accompanying the memo is the possibility like we could also just write up what we think the priorities for transportation should be as a suggestion or a starting point for the TSO and the full And we could, I mean, I think I don't know which one of you was saying all the candidates when they were campaigning everybody was talking about sidewalk and road repair. Definitely, but nobody knows. You know, nobody knows at all. I mean, at least in my conversations with Pam Rooney and Anika. They had no idea how to actually and practically, none of them do make that happen. And so, you know, it's, I'm not, I guess I don't really want the perfect to be the enemy of the good. And so I don't want to like, not send something to put us on the radar screen because it's not absolute perfection. And so the idea would be, hey, y'all said that you really wanted to, you know, to deal with a transportation issues so like you know, here's what here's an agenda that you could enact and you could start doing for the And it would just be interesting because I haven't seen any other defined agenda in transportation coming from any of the counselors. No, I mean, it's just like, oh, we can make streets and sidewalks in our district better. Some of the requests that counselors have brought forward or even, you know, or even individual residents, right? They're not thinking about like the larger transportation plan, they're not thinking about the bike network plan and I know in some cases, I mean, counselors have said that they, you know, want to advocate for certain projects. It's like, well, okay, that may, you know, that could help with safety in this particular area, but it's already clear that there's a queue of like projects that have been identified a long time ago that still haven't been funded and that it's clear they need to get funded and like that these new proposed projects, like, they're, you know, they shouldn't be at that necessarily at the top of the lot, like the top of the pile just because somebody is advocating for them or even a group of people are advocating for them. Well, that's the problem. I mean, that was one of my comments when they were doing the capital improvement planning process last year about like, you know, that they're, I mean, do you just give, do you just decide to do projects based on like who comes to the meetings and who submits projects? No, you'd want to think about them in that larger context and what's happening throughout town. Because it can't just use squeaky wheel. Yeah, it's squeaky wheel because Yeah, but that gets back to the original question of do you want us or not, right? I mean, unless they are willing to listen to us. None of what you're talking about is actually going to get done. Right. I mean, we can advocate till we're blue in the face, but until they actually recognize us as a body of input. It's pointless. Wait. Yeah, I was just curious. So, you know, I've been pretty engaged with school, which I finished in December, thankfully, so I might be more engaged then but I'm just curious, is there a world where like TAC collects feedback from voters and kind of works it out that way in terms of getting getting noticed? Absolutely. Yeah, Joe. I mean, that's like to Eve's point, that was the charge, right, was kind of be that middle person, be the person doing a lot of that stuff. But not both. I think that the original charge too, but it was kind of hard though because like if, I mean the current version of the charge, which I included, you know, what I sent out, but it also says that like TAC is responsible for creating and like maintaining the list of like priority projects and addressing like resident concerns. But the thing is that as an advisory committee, like we don't have, you know, we don't oversee staff, like we don't have connection, like power over, you know, DPW or like other departments in town. And so, you know, people, if somebody's complaining about their specific sidewalk or their, I mean, those aren't things that we can necessarily do. Like I do think on some of those, we should have an advisory role and we also have the context of the plans and the work that's been done over the years. I mean, when some of these proposals come forward, they're just thinking about like that specific intersection or that specific need, they're not doing it in a larger context and that's the value of TAC. Right. It's like giving the history, the history, the history, but also just the larger framework about where does this fit into the overall plan. Right. And I thought it was valuable, for example, that ECAC just sent that memo to the council about that the council needs to move forward on the bike ped plan and on the bike ped map because it's a key part of like the climate action plan. Right. And that's not happening. So. I just want to, I'm sorry, guys, I do need to go again at 630. I just wanted to interject. I feel that the maybe another challenge has been the change in government. So it's possible that TAC had an elevated sort of profile and was in more use in the town meeting form of government, which to me makes a lot of sense. Moving to the council, which is sort of a more traditional governing body, decision making body, what have you. It does kind of throw into question whether or not the TAC can do what it's supposed to do. And part of me just feels like if we all just quit TAC and became a local nonprofit. That, you know, did basic organizing, right, gathering input ideas, membership. Fundraising and lobbying towards the town. We would have potentially more control over the. Or influence over the agenda coming out of the council. Because it's a traditional, you know, like, if you were in Boston or another town that's been running with a city council or a town government. That's how it's done. These types of quite kind of quasi committees that have elements of government in them and also elements of advocacy. They don't exist. It's just create a group, call it walk Boston and start building your constituency and then you start going to the city counselors. And, you know, and lobby the mayor and everybody else to get, you know, what you want to have done done. So there's also a part of me that's just feeling there's the potential there and we could also just start playing the more traditional role, which is a. Yeah, I think you're onto a onto a great point right there. I mean, right. So for Springfield, they have walk bike Springfield, and they are very active and they do a lot of advocacy. I mean, it can be challenging to sustain a nonprofit or an advocacy organization. Though as we see it's also challenging to sustain. I mean, we're pretty much what we would call in the UK a quango like a quasi like you were saying, Chris, like, it's, you know, quasi sort of like government but not but maybe but not really. And it's just like a bunch of unelected people kind of, you know, such as ourselves making these decisions but we don't have the power that we think we could we do right. Right. And so I think we just need to figure out how we can better work in that environment or not or go out and not go elsewhere but split off and do what we can do because yeah I mean back in back. We have a dupe we have to recognize right we have a duplication of roles in the current council there is this body called the TSO. And then there's us in pre council that was just us. So, you know, there's this. Yeah, go on. No I mean so TSO though is not just transportation right TSO I know it's not but it's a they spend a lot of time on sewer and water and yeah but they're the main thing is transportation right it's we are one of their parts. So we are duplication of their path. I'm not saying they're not only transportation at all. I'm just saying we are duplicative of their scope. So in some respects, and we see ourselves as being a valuable asset to increase their ability to cope with all the transportation sides you know maybe they need a services committee to to kind of help them on that part. But right now you know we've gone from a place where we were the only game in town to a place where now there are multiples of us. So, that's I think we're getting back to you know what Kim and I were originally saying like what do you want. Do you want us or don't you, because it is a different. It is a different paradigm now and we need to figure out what we're doing. So I think I mean one thing is that like Chris had suggested that we could look at. No, I agree. I agree. But I also, I have seen that some TSO leadership or there's, you know, some cases where TSO is particularly like with the first council compared to the second council, like, we did get communication from TSO. You know in 2021 and things where they said we want you to weigh in on this and we want you to look at these questions and we looked at that we. Yeah, with the Pomeroy village like we gave in. Yeah, no, we had a role then. And so we had a role that was under the council that just happened to be like a different iteration of TSO. But yeah, so that is TSO. And that, that, you know, set of TSO council members like they even had, you know, they created like guidelines for making decisions about on street parking and they had like different procedures including consult tacker. So just to get it back, you know, who's ever going to be on TSO in the next council starting 2024 to say to reiterate, you know, with our memo, like the tack is a resource, you know, we've been a resource, but you need to use us and provide guidance. And otherwise it doesn't work. Right. So. So Chris was mentioning earlier, like the idea of talking about our priorities, which was the second document that I had sent over, you know, about because we did go through our own list and working with Guilford and Guilford's list about. You know, these are our priority intersection projects and these are other priorities. We could do that. We could send that to the new council in 2024 and early 2024 and the new TSO. I guess the question for us now is, do we want to say anything to the council or TSO before that. You know, just about that we need clarification and it's frustrating that we're not used. I mean, do we want to make any statement. You know, Kim's thing about like, we don't need to exist if you don't want us or you're not using us. I mean, do we want to make any statement to council the TSO now or do we want to wait. Well, I thought we were just going to send the memo. Yeah, but I think we, I mean, to Kim's point, I think that it would be good to, I would send the old memo and just have a new kind of cover letter or like a cover statement and say, Hey, this is the memo we wrote you two years ago. Yeah, no, that's good. What statement do we want to say like on that cover statement and do we want to just as a committee make a motion about I mean I was trying to write some language that's why I put it on the share like we want clarification and we're frustrated. Yeah, no, I want to say anything else. I agree with that. No, I completely agree. I just worry that I think we might, we can create it now, but do we need to wait till next time to vote on it? That's my only thing. Well, I don't think we have, like, we don't have a quorum anyway, so yeah, right now, but I think we do need to get, we, we do still have a quorum. But we do a cool right there for us. The thing is that we're not taking action on any, we have a quorum and we're not taking, I mean, our only action is just to send forward a statement I don't feel like we would be violating Robert's rules by saying that. Yeah, I mean, I feel like we just have to say. Right. Is there anything else that we would want to say in this or we could just leave it at that for now and we could revisit it when we need to go. I think Joe has his hand up. Or Joe might have his hand up from before but. Yeah, probably from before. Sorry. I think, I think we just have to say, I mean, I, if we're going to meet. We should have things to sink our teeth into we're an active and an interested body. And so we can we are, you know, and, and the committee members committee in the absence of being used we have no, no reason to exist. Do you want us, do you want not want us? I mean, it's a very simple kind of with, you know, I mean, you could, you could even say I honestly I'm just so sympathetic because it's just it's felt like it's honestly not just been a few years it's been 12 or however many years and just banging their heads on a wall. And before that I think it other people felt that way. You know, so it might not, you might even say, do you want us as part of the town government, or do you want us as an advocacy group outside the town government because we're going to do one of the two, you know, and we are going to be used and we're going to work to make sure the town thinks, you know, broadly and integratively. I mean, I mean, in the absence of town support, right, we don't have input from knowledgeable and actionable people like Chris Christine, Christine and Guilford right I mean, and, and, and we don't have a charge we don't have an initial charge from our town manager either. I mean, so, you know, outside of that, it's going to be harder for us to make. I mean, if we don't have Guilford's input, for example, if we don't know what the town is actively engaged in and where they're where their priorities lie, it's going to be difficult for us to have the same kind of effect. We have the same kind of perspective on what we think the priorities are right. So, so that's the only problem right with going to outside of town government, which I still think is a viable option, but it makes us less effective, right, because Guilford, you're so useful on you know so many things and you understand how you know where work, how the government is working and what's actually doable. I mean you have so much knowledge that makes us really I mean it helps us make informed decisions you know, and in the absence of that would just take another step right it will take us longer to reach real consensus about things. So, so I mean, so, what have we definitely more valuable in government that's what I'm saying. I mean, I've always taken. I mean I do appreciate advocates but I mean my whole background, especially, you know, I mean I have a background in planning and policy and I try to work like within the system, even though I have to say it as we've talked about it can be really frustrating. Right and so I'm not. I mean I've actually been told by some people like I'm not an effective advocate. Because what always load just because I'm always thinking about, you know, like the, like the other side of issues and like the broader perspective I'm not going to just advocate for one thing and just forget like the whole rest of the world exists and like all the other sides and things but I mean if it can work I mean that I actually am supportive of the, you know, the idea of a transportation commission because they do work well in other communities including North Hampton which has had one for decades. So I do hope that that's something that doesn't go away. So, go for it. If you don't mind, I'll just jump in and say this has been like this for quite a while as you've said, but it's because no one is wanted to give you the power and the support to do what you need to. We haven't had a mechanism for taking people's complaints in years since I've been here it's just like constantly it's whoever screams the most. The most gets the action that's why the, that's why Cushman is getting attention right now. Cushman is God, a guy who I think he's just independently wealth theory, he's works from home or he's retired I don't know what he is. But he has kids there and he's taken it upon himself to be the advocate to drive it. And it's, it's the council has the council needs to decide how they're going to do this. And it's either the council TSO does it, or the tack does it but you got to support whichever method and set it up to work properly. And that's not and that's been the problem since that's really been the problem since the tack came into existence. And this new council came into existence. It's just, well actually when the council came into existence. So you guys are completely right. And I would say you need to really just say, what do you want to do. They actually have an item. It's not on this agenda for the TSO, but talking about making the TS to making a subcommittee of the TSO, which basically is taking you and giving you power. Or I mean, again, the idea of like a commission, which actually has power, you know, and it's like built in with staffing and. Right, which is exactly what Northampton has and exactly what Cambridge has. They all have this ability to do things and to set things up and put the, put it in order and work through the order and not. But that's what we need. We need that. That's not fair otherwise. I mean, the people I know in Northampton has says it's worked well there. But and they are still largely advisory, you know, but it's just like a format and it's a way of getting things done. But but but our our forum is the only real equitable solution for the town. Because everything else, like you said, Guilford, is just the loudest person who often is also the person, you know, with the most time and, and, you know, the availability, right, like the, you know, I really feel that. If has a question. So just to, I don't know, this isn't maybe my worst fears kind of question, but, you know, say that they create a commission and they give it more power. I mean, we kind of have seen that the council doesn't like to give up power. They do have it want their agenda. So how can you set up a commission that wouldn't basically be stacked by whoever controls the council in a way that, you know, that they want. Well, I mean, is that possible. If it's still controlled by the town manager, like the tack is, which is, you know, for the overall scope of the town, right? I mean, but the commission is not it would be like its own body that could do things. By who I mean, but it is true. I mean, like, I mean, with the commission, some of it would depend on who are the members of the commission, you know, and what's the composition and what's the balance of staff or other people. So has a question too. I was just curious if we have the ear of any particular council person who, you know, is a big fan of the tack. I mean, I think there are some counselors who have identified that tack does not work the way it is. And that tack is not utilized and who have suggested who have been supportive of the idea of a commission. Or, you know, doing something more with tack, but that just needs to move forward. You actually do have some sorry, you actually do have like a lot of counselors who want to see the process moves smoother than it's moving because it doesn't move in TSO either if you look at it. Right. Things things go to TSO and get bogged down never come out again. Yeah, absolutely. There's many counselors who got reelected who feel that way and there's at least one I know who just got elected who was a previous one who feels that way. And that's just they want to pattern pattern the commission after the liquor license commission and are like that we have in on the second floor. So if you want a liquor license or peddler's license or any of those licenses of the town issues it goes through this commission. And it would mirror that commission is what they're talking about doing. Right. So, so I guess we do need just to go back to my question. So who controls that commission who appoints those commissioners and does it have the potential to be stacked in favor of certain interests. Oh, it can always be stacked. I was actually just about to go look at that once you tell us something else and I'll tell you. But I mean, I think that I mean, the reason I like the commission is, I mean, I want something that's going to be sustainable like right so like Kim has been on the tack for like ever. You know, and your term will be up and like I'll cycle off the tack and and I mean, and I don't need to be on the commission necessary, you know, or but like we want a structure that succeeds. You know, year in year out with whoever the counselors are and whoever the commissioners are and it's true that, you know, certain years just like in other types of, you know, politic and government settings like they'll be different priorities or something but it will like continue and it will have like a good structure, like longer term. And, you know, and if I wasn't involved, I mean, maybe I would decide like hey I'll just, you know, be part of an advocate group or something but it's just like it's lacking that structure now and it's lacking a clarity and the fact that we have a charge that goes back to the select board. You know, it's just an indication of like, what, like the first problem. So, so I guess the question is, I don't know if Chris is still here or not but do we want to take a vote on anything tonight or do we want to wait and continue to discuss it. I mean, is it, is it, would it be possible to kind of, I mean, I think we should I, I mean, I'd like to say something. Yeah, my vote is that I mean my, I wouldn't mind making a motion to say that we would like to forward on the previous memo to the TSO. But that we collectively work on the cover letter for that, which includes you know the sentiment that you're conveying here. Yeah. So, we could do that for our next meeting, and we could also, I could just bring up that we're talking about it. Is it possible to work on this preamble I don't think it needs to be extensive I think a paragraph is planning, but just to convey the sentiment that is uniformly felt by all members that were here. I mean, not to give you homework, so sort of, but I mean, if we want to keep something short I like the idea of it being short and it just being like appended to, you know, with the original memo behind it. Do we want to do you want to just put something together and we can certainly get voted. Yes, I will. One bring up. I mean if I speak in public comment which I'm planning to at the TSO meeting which starts in 10 minutes but yeah, I can, I can just bring up that like, yes, at this meeting and like, yes, so on. So, I think that would be good. Eve has a question. I love, I love the idea of having Kim take a crack at this because I think you've kind of expressed a clarity in your frustration that is really powerful, actually, honestly, so I love the idea of having you have a crack at the Council will be really glad to not hear from me. You know, to just synthesize a lot of what folks have said tonight. I mean do you feel like where you're coming out is commission or nothing. Or, or, you know, an alternative like, yeah, yeah, non government alternative, you know, like you feel like because earlier you were saying either use us or don't. Does that now translate to commission or we're going elsewhere. Or for me, I mean, it's not the same thing. It's a commission it's in theory we need something you could have the tack and its current structure be used more in theory. Yeah, but I mean, a commission is just attacked to me a commission is just attacked with a new name, right. It's just attacked, but it's also not attacked because it would you know it's something residents and right. I mean it's something that actually has TV and can do stuff. I mean that's where we realize we need to go. Yeah, and it's ideally what would happen but I mean, I think it would depend a lot on like to Eve's question. I think it would depend a lot on what the transportation commission looks like. And, and those are the questions that the counselors were asking the counselors who are supportive of there being a commission, the ones who aren't about what exactly is like the scope of the commission, like who's on the commission and those things and not. Answering those questions and they asked right the town manager to report back to them as he looked into how other communities have done it is the answer to those questions would really form for me at least like how I would feel about how I would feel about it as an entity or not. To your question, if I feel personally, like, if we're, we continue to be used like we were with the original council, I feel like you know we did our job still we were still doing a job that was worthwhile. I don't feel like I'm being you were being used for anything worthwhile at this, you know, over this last council pretty much for the most part. You know, to be able to have the freedom to do things like, hey, let's think about an overall plan for the town, right, which is what we had worked on a couple of a few years ago, which, you know, is not something that is a particular concern at the moment, but it's like a grand plan that, you know, those kinds of issues are the kinds of issues that we could be used for so even if we're used but in that sense, in a, in a broad perspective sense as a tech, I'm happy to do that I feel like I'm contributing to a plan for for for us and like contributing to the good of our town, but currently in the current state feel like nothing so commission would be great you know I can see a total role for that as well. But to just yeah I mean it feels like what's happening now is basically Tracy spends all another half time job beyond her existing full time job just keeping up with other meetings in town to try to find out things happening related to transportation that no one's bothering to tell the tech about and then Tracy comes back and tells you guys about it and then decides whether the tech wants to weigh in in the other forum but no, you know that just requires so much extra work and and like our whole plan when the tech was created was basically we were saying that anytime there's an issue that comes up that's related to transportation including like planning a new development or, you know, whatever parking we weren't going to do parking but we wanted to be asked about parking in when it might, you know, because it could affect broader transportation issues like we were basically asking the town all across and all it's all it's the roles to come to us and now, like it's like Tracy is No, not necessarily but um, no I do think that some counselors are better communicators on these and more likely to invite tech to conversations or whatever so um, but just to wrap up I guess so for it sounds like we do want to have a meeting in December, some time, and we'll see also if TSO refers anything to us, but it sounds like that nothing can really go forward with the Cushman study and with the Cushman safety zone until there's actually the study and the study isn't going to happen until the new year so right and and really move forward on that, even though there's that December 18 death line it's just going to they're going to report back and say we don't have the study yet. Did the South Amherst Common Study ever happen? Remember that one? I mean, I mean that I wasn't even on the talk but that you brought that up too like that was one of our that was on our list so I think for the next one but Come on there there was also the pandemic that happened right I mean I mean and then no one was traveling to UMass anymore I mean it wasn't useful to do that. South Amherst is still in that common. Yes, but what I'm saying is, I mean we had a plan, but then, you know, it's a problem, yes, but I mean we had a solution at the time but then the pandemic happened and the transportation changed dramatically I don't think that's really fair. Well no I was thinking like it could have come like that study maybe should come back before a new study on a new place that just I don't know but like at least asking that question. The loudest you know person getting the study. Alright so in terms of December, let's just pick a date and then I'm going to hop onto the CSL meeting. Okay great. If you want to come make a public comment feel free. Yeah I might because I feel really jazzed up at the moment so maybe. I don't have that link but maybe they have the, I know and they put the public comment right at the beginning of the meeting. And I have occasionally missed it. Okay so let's do it let's go. Yeah, actually Tracy sorry just a quick one. Can you send out the zoom link. Yes, because we're all going to. Okay sure. Send it just send it to the email. Oh I can't chat. Okay, I'll send it right now. Send it to the email. Will you be at that meeting too. No. Okay, all right. All right, so December 14th. Okay, so good. Okay, all right, because of seven is the first night of Hanukkah. Okay, and I'll, I'll get a letter together. Send us something. Yeah, I might actually be driving back from New Jersey that day. All right, I will send out the link to CSL right now. Okay, thanks. Thank you. Safe driving. Bye Joe. Bye.