 Okay. Jess, how about just saying your whole name so we can make sure we get everything right. Jesse Antoine Marcell. Seriously. Seriously. Antoine. Antoine. And you are a physician. Correct. And what kind of, what field of medicine do you practice? Well, I specialize in ear, nose, and throat conditions, you know. Taunt, snitis, ear infections. You name it. Anything above the clavicle. Like, antidote. And you also are in the National Guard? Correct. How long have you been serving in the National Guard? Since 1978 or 79. Jess, I wonder if I can take you back to the night that your father came home. Matt, do you have an idea about what time of the night that was and what you were doing for the time? Well, I was asleep for one thing. I'm not, I want to say it was very early hours. It was not the very late in the evening or very early in the morning when he came. I had awakened both myself and my brother. And why did he wake you both up? He had something he wanted to show us. This apparently was some debris or something he brought in from the field at that time. I understand he was on his way to the air base to deliver this, but he felt that this was unusual enough that he wanted us to see it first before he delivered it to his proper destination. And what happened after he woke you up? Well, he was, as I recall, very excited. And again, he said, I want to show you something. So I got my house coat on. I did my mother and he had gone onto the car and brought back in some metallic debris. I believe it was in a box. I don't recall whether I walked outside with him or not, but he made it seem like the 1942 view we had was loaded with this stuff in the backseat and in the trunk area. At any rate, he brought the material in and spread it on the kitchen floor in an effort to try to piece it together like a jigsaw to get some idea of the form. But unfortunately, there was too much of it. Too finely divided to do that. How old were you at the time? I was 11. And when he spread all this material out on the floor, what was your impression about what this material was like? How would you describe it? Well, initially, he was just looking at it and said, well, what's this all about? You know, I'm going to sleep you out. But then when you get down and looking at it, it was the unusual character of the debris. And I want to say that he said something like this is from a flying soldier, but I'm not sure that he said that, but the meeting was clear that this was something very special. And he wanted us to look at it. And what's your recollection about what the material looks like, felt like? Well, I could divide it into three major categories. I'm thinking back on it a few times. There was a lot of rather thick foil-like material, kind of not a shiny aluminum, but a burnished or a slate gray type of aluminum metal. There was a black plastic type debris like Bakelite, which was shattered. It was very brittle material. And then there were fragments of what appear to be I-beams, relatively small, but a typical I-beam type configuration. Let's talk a little bit about each category for a little bit of detail, if you will. Let's talk about first the foil-like substance. What sort of, what was the size of this material? Well, I don't recall seeing any piece that was greater than four to six inches in circumference or diameter. I don't recall whether I tried to test it for being able to tear it or bend it or anything like that, but it was very light. And again, a dull metallic gray color. And there was a lot of that. How thick would you describe this material? Well, it was thicker than the usual kitchen foil. I guess there's a neurofoil out now for heavy-duty use that is used in storing food, and that's approximately what it was like. In terms of thickness? In terms of thickness. Any other similarities to everyday household items that you wore? Well, it was metallic, you know, it's about, I can say, not shiny. And the pieces of the foil-like substance, what shape were they? Well, it was shredded at least, you know, torn. Irregular? Irregular, right. And there was a lot of this material? Well, enough to cover the floor. Was this... And more, because there's a lot more left to cover. That's what I was going to ask. He didn't bring in all of it? No, no, no. There was only one portion left to cover. Okay. The weight of this material you described is light. Would you say that it was unusually light, lighter than you would expect, or heavier, or anything at all unusual about its weight? Well, feathers. Very light. In other words, you could take a piece, and it wouldn't just fall to the floor, but kind of drift down in front of a snow-like material. No, that's very interesting. Did you actually see that? I did not. No, I did not. But this is what, you know, I thought it would be like, you know, if I would have done that. Light is a feather. What you described as almost plastic, or bake-light-like material. Tell me a little more about that. Well, it was black, brown, and colored. Again, irregular pieces. About a 16-inch, maybe a little bit greater in thickness. And brittle. At least I suspect it was brittle because it shattered like glass. I want to make sure I understand. You didn't actually see it shatter, but it appeared to have been shattered. I didn't try to bend or test any of these things. I just picked them up gently and handled them. Anything else unusual about the weight of this material? Plastic weight. I think it was very light also. It's kind of hard to, I don't recall comparing it with other. Anything else worthy of comment about this material? Would you recall? Basically just the description of color. Shatter-type bake-light material. And how about what you described as I-beams? What were those like? Well, they were, again, looked like the same type of material that the foil-like materials made of. Metallic, dull, gray aluminum. It's a very light again. I did not try to bend it or stress it in any way. Although the piece I remember looking at was about 12 to 18 inches in length. Both ends, I think were shattered or broken off, wasn't a clean cut. And the material thickness appeared to be about a 16th of an inch. And what color were they? Again, it was a dull gray, like a flat aluminum finish. I guess I'll be able to describe that. Metallic? Metallic, definitely metallic. Anything else unusual about this particular piece of material? Well, the most unusual part of this whole thing was what was on the I-beam, on the inner surface of an I-beam. Because as you look at it, head-on, there appeared to be a type of writing on the mainframe itself. This writing was definitely a purplish and mild hue. It did have an embossed appearance because you could, by recall, you could rub your finger on it, and you could tell it had texture. I don't recall any singing in lines or letters of any kind, but it was more like geometric shapes. Or, Valence Martin just described it. It was curved geometric shapes. There might have been some triangles and circles, but it was solid. Is it possible you might have mistaken it for Russian, Japanese, any other language? No, no way. Anything like hieroglyphics? Well, my first impression was, this is Egyptian hieroglyphics, but I knew enough at that time to know that it wasn't, because hieroglyphics usually has some handle and symbols. And the lettering, or what we call the lettering, of these symbols? They were not connected. Were they in color? Yes. But they were on a surface that was, what? Well, the surface was the same color as the rest of the 90s, the dull metallic gray. So it was just the symbols that were in a kind of purple, pink? That's right. That was a color that caught your eye. Here in all this massive metallic gray pieces, they're here just a flash of color. What do you recall your father saying that night about how he came into possession of this interpret? I don't recall a whole lot of the mechanics or the logistics involved. I do know he'd been going for quite a while. I'm not sure exactly how long he'd been going, but if I remember saying something about this came from the Christ Sider, from some of Papello's ranch here in the northwest of Roswell. And you said at the outset that he appeared to be excited. Yeah, that's the reason he got us into that. Why was he excited about this? Because he felt it was something very unusual. He felt it was probably something we'd never seen before or would ever see again. Again, I want to say that he said the word's flying south, but I cannot be sure about that. I'm always positive he did, but I can't recall for me at least that. When you said that your father had been gone for some time, do you mean hours or days or something? Well, again, my memory is kind of easy about how long he was going. I know he was going maybe more than 12 hours, maybe a day or so. And how long was he at your home that night with the material on the floor? The total time there was about 15 or 20 minutes. And what happened after that? He loaded up back in the car and took off. Do you know where he went? Well, he's gone back to the base. Sounds my understanding. When did you next see him, do you recall? I think it was the next day, although I'm not absolutely sure about that either. And did you have any conversation with him about what transpired since you had seen him last? Well, you know, I recall those conversations. I don't know that we had talked about it very much afterwards. The initial excitement wore off, and then the whole deal kind of was put to rest. There's still a feeling that there's something very unusual about this. It was not, you know, something in commonplace like, they would like to say weather balloon or radar target. Your father didn't think it was a weather balloon or a radar target? Never did. Do you think it was? Well, even at that young age, I had kind of an interest in electronics and weather and things like that. And I'd seen weather balloons, and I'd seen pictures of radar targets. It was not a balloon. Was it like anything you'd ever seen before? Not really. One thing that sets the apart was those eye beams with the symbols. Did your father ever speculate about what it was, where it came from? We would talk about it periodically over the next several years, and we'd always thought that it was something very unusual. I think initially they might have thought it was even a Russian weapon that was used to cover up the very end of the story, but later it was not a Russian weapon. So that left one out of the possibility that it was something from out of our atmosphere. Was your father in the habit of discussing his work, when he was in intelligence? No, he was not. Not in the habit of discussing his work. So I guess it wouldn't be real unusual for him to be rather quiet about it. He was not given to verbal diarrhea about things like that. But he obviously did eventually talk. As time went on, the seed had been planted in the back of our minds that there's something very unusual about this, and from time to time you'd read about some UFO sighting and the paper and it would trigger a little conversation about what this was. Knowing your father as you did, what do you think motivated him to go public with this account as he did? Well, this didn't happen for years. And he was a radio amateur. I love ham radio. And I don't know the exact scenario, but I can picture that maybe they were talking on ham radio. He was talking on ham radio with somebody. And maybe the discussion came up about a recent UFO sighting. And he would say, oh, by the way, I was involved with one. And I could picture that as being the mechanism that this thing came out. I don't know that to be sure, but that's, I think, the most likely way. And when journalists and people came to ask him to be interviewed for this, do you think he had any reluctance? Do you know if he had any reluctance about speaking more publicly to a wider audience about this? Well, this is many years later and it lost track or in touch with the Air Force community. And I think at that time the uniqueness had worn off a bit where he felt less constrained. Kevin, I don't have any more questions. Anything that we've failed to cover that's important. When your dad came home, did he ever suggest you weren't supposed to talk about it? Is there any kind of discussion about what was said at the base, and let's not talk about this anymore in those first few days? I don't recall that exactly, but I think the implication was there that it's over with, don't say anything more about it, at least don't ingrain it. After he came out with the story in 1978, was there ever any contact with anyone in Pentagon or anybody from the military suggesting that maybe he had spoken out of turn? No. Going back to the first statement too, I never discussed this with any of my friends either. I had a lot of friends in acquaintances in Roswell and you can definitely see I never even told them about what was going on. Later on, you'd suggested that it was in high school before he really ever discussed it again with your dad. Did you ever discuss it with any of your friends in high school when the stories would come out in the newspapers, or suggest to anybody while these things are real? I don't recall ever seeing anything about it. When you would see these stories in the newspapers, what was your reaction to it? Did you just kind of, I know something more about it? Well, my initial reaction was maybe most of these were hoaxes and maybe a misidentification of things, but I do know of one that was not a hoax or misidentification. Was it the feeling of you, your father, your mother, that it was extraterrestrial in origin? Yes. We felt it was all a very unique experience. We just had to be at the right place at the right time to receive this. But was your feeling that it was extraterrestrial? Actually, my own personal thoughts was, after we started sending satellites around the Russians in 1957 with the Sputnik, I felt that maybe this was a probe that happened to land on our planet from someplace else. From another planet? From another origin. When you had the debris in the kitchen, was there any odor associated with any of the debris at all that you could recall? Did the material feel cold to the touch at all? Well, it was metallic, you know, it was a hot night, so it didn't, you know, I'm sure it was the ambient air temperature or whatever that was at that time. Is there any possibility that your dad might have slipped a piece out of the box to keep his souvenir? No possibility. He'd never think of doing something like that? No, at all. His background was intelligence. Was that his job all through his military career? Was he always an intelligence? Well, that in photo-analysis interpretation. Now, there have been stories that he flew as a gunner? Well, as he did man the guns and all that, I think what happened, he was a navigator, or he went a lot many times to view the bombing runs personally, just to find out the fact they had photographs, but he'd get more information by being there on the site. And I do know at one time that they were shot pretty badly and he had to take over the guns. He wasn't known how to man 50 calibers or something, so I don't know how he did that. He described sitting on an empty box of ammo and having some slugs through between his legs through a box from a Japanese firing unit. And was quite excited about that, didn't you? At another time they were shot down. They had two of the engines, four engines shot out. The plane in the B-29 doesn't fly very well and two of the third one gave up. They're going down like a rock. Did he have to bail out or did he? He bailed out. He bailed out. So his military career, he was basically an intelligence, most of his military career. And he would get stuck down as a pilot too, as much as he could. It was a non-rated day. We know how that works. There are many stories about his military career. He did not stay for the full 20. No, he did not. He got out as a lieutenant colonel. He was given a reserve commission of a lieutenant colonel, but he was an active duty as a major. So he never served as a lieutenant colonel? He never served as a lieutenant colonel. I know a lot of the reserve papers he got to him was addressed to a lieutenant colonel, just more so, but he never had the privilege. Lieutenant colonel. So he got out, he had no military pension. No. He got out of the service, went back to the home of Louisiana. He was a TV radio repairman or owned a... The radio television sales service. And that's what he did until he retired. The first time you remember him really talking about this, you were in high school, said something about you were in high school? Well, about that timeframe, you know, because at that era, you know, flying saucers were in the rage. You know, you read about these reports and the papers, these sensational magazines and things like that, which tend to degrade the story. Yeah, so as if we need that, that sort of thing. But he was, for the most part, pretty close-lipped about this, even after he was out of the military. Right. It wasn't really a daily topic. And there was no military pension for him to protect or no threat of... The only thing he had from the military was he fell off the roof when he was repairing his hand radio antenna in Roswell. And he had a fracture of an organ elbow and I think he had $14 more, you know, for a disability, you know, a very minor disability. That was the only thing he got. So that there was no threat they could hold over him, that if you talked about this, we're going to take away your pension or anything like that. Do you remember how long, how much time he spent on active duty? How many years he got in? Well, no, he went in 1942 and stayed until 1949 or 1950. So seven or eight years, as well. And there was the story that's been published that he wrote the speech for a crewman when the atomic bomb was exploded by the Soviets. Any truth to that? Or he provided the intelligence information for the president? I have a vague recollection of something of that nature, but I don't know that he wrote the speech, but I do know that he was in preparing something, you know, gathering information. He's part of this intelligence information. Right, yeah, but that was not really a subject of conversation. Did you ever notice your dad, or did your dad ever break security other than this one time when he brought the material home? Although he really wasn't breaking security since he wasn't classified yet. Did your dad ever break security at all that you recall? Oh, one other time. And that would be when? I don't know whether or not. I guess I need to bring that up. I don't know whether. So as far as you know, your dad really never broke security. He never really talked to the neighbors. He never talked to friends about what he was learning with his job. No, no, that was all pretty. Okay. Thank you very much. I'm just going to ask you some questions just to get you started. No. Okay. Vern, tell me about your relationship with Barney Barnett. How did you know Barney? At first I met Mr. Barnett. I was with the 333rd Bond Group in downtown Texas. At that time Mr. Barnett was living in Muscare in New Mexico. I met him in late 1943. He was on a boundary for this corner commander in the downtown Texas. So you both were in the service together? No, we were not in the service together. He was a civilian working as a civil engineer at the state of New Mexico. And what kind of relationship did the two of you have? Well, Barney didn't have any children. He'd raised a niece. He sort of took me under his... And during the visit he treated me just about like a son. So pretty close relationship? Real close relationship. I understand around 1950 he told you a story about something that had happened some time previous. Can you relate that story to us? Yes. Mr. Barnett told me that when he was coming back on one of his field trips he'd run on to a flying saucer that had burst open and there were four beings on the ground. And that he was surveying the state at about that time as an archeological group from the University of Pennsylvania coming to the state. There were about four or five people with this group as they were starting to look things over really closely. The military moved in and gave them a briefing to not say anything about it to keep quiet and it was in the national interest to get out of there. What was his feeling about what it was that he had experienced? He had no qualms about what it was. He said the vehicle from outer space, any question. The beings on there were nothing like... Not exactly like human beings. Similar but not exactly. How did he describe them? He described them being about three and a half to four feet tall. Very slim and stature. And their heads were hairless with no eyebrows, no eyelashes, no hair and sort of a pear shaped head with top of the head being smaller. Or larger, I mean. Any other characteristics about their appearance? Only one thing that he mentioned is the hands were not covered. They had four fingers. How were they dressed? They were dressed in some type of a type fitting suit. It looked like sort of a metallic but not metal and not nylon. It really fit to the body very closely tight. They were not wearing any headpiece at all. I don't recall that he said anything about what they had on their feet. Were all of these beings dead when he found them? They were all dead in only a short distance from the craft. The craft had burst open and he said that they hadn't seen anybody inside but they really hadn't had a chance to look. These were all outside the craft and quite close to the craft but then not too many feet from the object. How did he describe the craft? Typical accessory. Disc shaped? Disc shaped and a pretty good size, not small. It was a craft that looked like it carried quite a few beings but it wasn't one of the little small discs at the three-pointer in St. Nicholas. Probably a hundred feet big. How did he describe the impact sight, if at all? He said it had come to rest sort of on a high bank sort of a ridge or a bank that had hit against the bank. It had split there. But otherwise it was intact. Did he describe any other debris or wreckage besides the craft? According to him there was no wreckage or debris around the craft. What did he give any description about the archaeology team? Nothing except it was four or five people. They were obviously there for a dig and they had just come upon us just about nearly simultaneously. Any names of any of these individuals? He didn't have any names because the short period that they were there and by the time the Army rounded him up and told him to get out of there after he had briefed him what and not to stand so on he got into a cup and had it back for him in his office. Did he ever tell this story to anybody else? He went back to his office and his boss started to tell him and the boss told him, Barney, don't tell me anything about it. I don't want to hear about it. Just forget it. He says when I was told that he had been told not to say anything. He said I'm not going to have people think I'm crazy. I never told anybody else until the time he told me about it. Did he ever experience any form of harassment from the government? They were harassing him on income taxes. I know that one time I visited him down there in 1915 and he was really nervous. This was either the second or third time they had audited him. I can't understand why they would audit him because he didn't do any outside business. They had his always income from his job. What kind of man was Barney Barnett? Barney Barnett was a real private individual. He didn't smoke, he didn't drink. His family and himself were very private. He was social with people but not too much on a social basis. But he was a very reliable professional man. He lived a lot in the out-of-doors and knew the outdoors. He collected arrowheads. He and I went on arrowhead hunts. We had gone on pottery digs ourselves. He showed me how to rattlesnakes and operated on how they struck. We had a lot of time together because we were out there in New Mexico when you were driving around. There's miles and miles and miles, there's nothing. So we had a lot of time to talk. But in all the time I knew Barney, he never told me a story. I was never told any story of any kind about anything. So I believed anything that he would say was reliable. I could have had a lot more information but I didn't pump him for information. At that time I was raising a family and busy in the military. I had a team of things to do. And I could have got a lot more information from him, I'm sure. It was one of those things that you think back. We hadn't had anybody in outer space. We hadn't had anybody in the moon. If we had progressed with this sort of thing I might have been a little bit more interested in details. When he related this account, what did you think about the story? I had no doubts about it. Knowing his reliability, I had no doubts but it was real. And of course he said that he was spurned to secrecy. I was still in the Air Force. So I didn't go around blabbering this to everybody. Matter of fact. I had no reason to really bring it up to anybody. The first time it was brought up is when the doctor, Friedenberg, was in Bemidji. He gave a lecture on UFOs that had gone. And I listened to this. I thought, you know, I wonder if I should relate this to him. They're doing the study and stuff. It might be important to his studies. So as a matter of fact, I thought about it. And then I left the auditorium and it was cold out. It was late, well I think. I walked about a half a block from there without saying anything. I thought, well, maybe it's a good policy to come back and tell them I didn't feel comfortable not doing it. So then I walked back and talked to him. And a few days later this Mr. Moore was near and he came over to my house and interviewed me about the details that I had. Have you experienced any repercussions from having shared this? None. I haven't had anybody harass me. Everybody that wants to answer all mysteries have had nothing but good comments. Most people believe these actually exist. And I don't really believe that I've had one back. Or they intentionally didn't give your address. But I had calls from every province in Canada except Eastern ones from Florida, Texas. And the amount of people that have seen this, I was amazed. So you don't have any regrets about having divulged this? I have no regrets about it. As a matter of fact, I could tell the same story a thousand times without changing it because I know it to be actual facts. I'm not about to alter anything. And I wouldn't accept one penny or one dime to make any statement. Because that would ruin the validity of what Mr. Barnett and in respect to him I wouldn't do it. As a former military man, what do you think our government should do now that this story is out? I can't see any reason why whatever information they have is not released. I think any information for documents should be released. Because most of the public believes they exist anyhow. And I think the population now is better prepared to accept this sort of thing. And they would have been in 1947 right after World War II for probably reasons why they didn't want it released. I can't see any reason for not releasing. Anything that we've not covered that you want to talk about? Well, the only time that I had any occasion to possibly see a fine censor in 1940, we'd moved with the 7th Bond Group, 11th Bond Group. We'd moved off the coast because of the problems with an imminent war. So we'd moved into Salt Lake City and we were working out of the municipal airport out there. And just about it was between 12 and 1 o'clock. There was a disk-like object that had come over Salt Lake City and come from the east over the Wadsatch Mountains. In the daytime it looked like the moon does if you see it in the daytime. And there was two pilots and I knew out there. I can't recall their names and myself. And we run for B-17. And we immediately started, didn't run a prep rejection in other words. Taxi right out the runway and took off. And we chased us. I mean there was no hope, it was just distances. And it could not possibly have been another airplane or balloon because the B-17 was about as fast a thing as it was on the market at that time. It'd come over from the east right directly over the airfield and then it went west. And when we took off then it just about went at a real steep angle going to the northwest went up and kept getting smaller and smaller until it would just like a little down. Nothing that I know of could possibly climb that fast. And this was what year? 1940. And because when it was these in 1941 it was in Hawaii when 1st December 1940. I was quite familiar with airplanes. I'd always had an interest in aviation and that's I went into the air. So I have an idea what they would do and could recognize the difference between something like that. Very much I appreciate all your time. Well I hope it works out good but it's basically what they were pretty pretty accurate and you know trying to reconstruct. And they did film about 20, 30, 40 minutes but they only used portion and they reconstructed some of the rest. Did you you were satisfied then with the dramatization part of it? Pretty much but there was some details that would have changed. And of course it was impossible for them to know every detail. If I had been on their site I could have told them such changes they could have made. Like Marnie wearing the pith helmet? Yeah wearing the pith helmet. Well and another thing he had glasses because when he opened the snakes mountain the venom came up over his glasses. That's how I vividly remember that I can picture in my mind the venom still streaming down his face and on his glasses. They took the glasses most of them. And it would just kind of a white form. You don't think he wore glasses I guess, huh? But this type of individual he was an outdoorsman. He knew the Southwest. He knew the outdoors and he was a type of individual that didn't exaggerate on anything. We did a lot of things outdoors. I know that New Mexico because I know what an uninhabited area that place is. That's why the group from New Mexico was kind of laughing at some of the things I was thinking about. Because they know what you're talking about. They know exactly. But I had been through a good process in that living there. I lived in Clayton, New Mexico one day. Were you living there? Still in the midget. And I put in 21 years in the United States Air Force and retired from them. I put in 30 years with the VA. Just about 30 years. I like working. And I'm interested in things. When I visit foreign countries out of the place I see everything. Industries. What the people are doing. Let me go living. I'm not one contented just to sit back and go and lay in the sun somewhere or go to the beach or whatever. I just like to get in the mansion. I'm interested in what's going on in the world and out of this world too. Obviously. Can I ask you to just sign this form for me? Well, the officers all left. And we had some minor maintenance. Mr. Porter, what were you doing in Roswell, New Mexico in July of 1947? I was a flag group member. At the Army Air Base? Right. And what was your rank? I was a Master Sergeant. And what would normally be your duties as a flight crew member? I was a flight engineer. And what sort of normal activities would you engage in? Well, I took care of the engines and the flight and weight and balance and fuel management. And did you log in a lot of hours in doing this? Right. What craft did you use when you fly? It was a B-29. Exclusively? Yeah. Then? All right. I understand that something rather unusual happened in July of 1947 at the base and you were involved in the flight. What happened that day that you were called? Well, we flew these pieces. They told us it was parts of the flying saucer. And we flew from Roswell to Fort Worth. And we started out. They told us we were going to Wright-Patterson in Ohio. And we got to Fort Worth and they transferred them to B-25 and took them to Wright-Patterson. And what did you do then? Then we returned to Roswell. Who do you recall was on board that B-29 when you left Roswell? Colonel James was on board and Colonel Barron's law, Major Wunderlich and Major Marcel was the one's up front. And who was it who told you that these were pieces of the flying saucer? I don't remember just who it was, but it must have been Captain Henderson. What did you think when you heard that? Well, at first I'd heard that it was a flying saucer. So it didn't really mean a whole lot, I guess. What was it that was actually loaded on board that you saw? Well, we had just packages and wrapping paper. And one of them was triangle shaped about two and a half feet across the bottom. And the rest were in smaller packages, about shoebox size. The triangle shape. Is that an unusual kind of package? And this was brown paper on the outside? Right, with tape. And did you actually load this stuff? Yes. What was your feeling when you picked it up? Just like I picked up an empty package. Is that right? Very light. From feeling the package, did you have a sense of what it was that was underneath the brown paper wrapper? Not really. Just brown paper and tape? But very light. And approximately how much of this stuff did you bring on to the B-29? Well, it was the one triangle shaped package and about three shoebox size packages. So it wasn't... It was not very much. Oh, I don't know if we were to... can you give me an idea about what the volume of all of this would be? Well, it's... Did you put it in, say, a back seat of a car or a trunk of a car? Yes, it was just small packages. And it took a B-29? It was necessary to take a B-29 on? Well, that was the transportation I guess. That's all you had? Right. And what did the fellows talk about on the way to... There wasn't much talk. They didn't talk back and forth very much. Nothing about it. Would that be unusual? Was there normally a lot of conversation between the officers and the crew? Well, this wasn't a regular crew. So at that time... How was that? Why do you say it wasn't regular? Well, we had officers from other squadrons in the plane. The Colonel Jennings was the deputy base commander, the major Marcellus intelligence officer. Would it be unusual for them to be on such a plane? Yes. And you arrived at Fort Worth at Carswell? Right. And what happened then? Well, we parked on the front line, the flight line. And Colonel Jennings told us to finish... We had some spark plugs to change. And he said, as soon as we got our maintenance done and the guard was posted, we'd go eat lunch and come back then. Was there anything unusual about your arrival at Fort Worth? No. So you did your maintenance, then you went out to lunch? And what happened after you got back? We came back and they moved the aircraft to the back flight line. And told us that they'd transferred the material to a B-25 to go into Wright Patterson. And that it was a weather balloon. And that was it. What did you think when you heard that? Well, I just thought this was what it was. You accepted what you were told? And then you flew back to Roswell? Right. Was there any conversation on the way back about this? No. How about after this episode, was there any more? No, nothing. Was it something that just wasn't talked about or did you feel that it shouldn't be talked about? We just thought it was a weather balloon. And that was it. Did you have... When did you first share, or when were you asked about your involvement in this? In 1979. Stan Friedman called me in 1979. And what did you... Did you learn anything more about this than you had known before? Not a whole lot. Does it surprise you to know that Jesse Marcel at least said that it was not a weather balloon? Well, not really. I never thought much about that. After all these years, what do you think it was? It wasn't a weather balloon. You're pretty sure of that? That's because of what people say? Yes, right. You're out of the service? Yes. For a while now? Yes. 26, 27 years, I guess. Are you getting a pension? Yes. Have you gotten any kind of harassment or anything? No. From having talked about this? No. Do you have any regrets about having talked about it? No. What do you think the government should do now about all this? Well, I think they should let the people know what's going on there. You'd like to know? Yes. Is there anything that we haven't talked about that you'd like to say, Mr. Ford? No. As long as we've got it all straight? Uh-huh. Okay. All right. Thank you very much. Mr. Porter, can I say a little bit about yourself? Where are you living now? And what's been your profession over the past few years? Well, at present, I and my wife reside in Southern California in a small community called Spring Valley. It's in the neighborhood of San Diego, I think, for our purposes as close enough. And I practiced as a dentist in that region about 1952 after my release from active duty after following the Korean police action. I think that's correctly noted. Right? And I met Patty Henderson in the early mid-60s, the best of my recollection in maybe 1962 or 63. How did you happen to meet him or know him? I was introduced to him by a mutual friend. We were, of course, one of my other vocations other than dentistry has been practice of studying metallurgy. I think that's probably what got Patty and I together. And as years went along, like two other ventures, I wound up actually joining one of his because it really proved to be interesting and I described that fully at our meeting today. I don't know what else to say. We gained a great deal of respect for each other. His judgment as he did mine, I guess, was a very nice relationship that we developed. And when did he tell you about something that occurred that was very unusual in 1947? Well, as near as I am able to tell, it would have been, and I think it might have been perhaps the 30th anniversary of that event. I guess it was right about that time, in the summer of 1978. And what was it that he related to you as to what had occurred? Well, he, of course, we will understand, we were in a public place where we met frequently. But we did speak in quite a great deal of privacy, let's say. He told me about the Roswell incident. When that incident occurred, I happened to have been in a period of inactive duty in my naval service and I was living in northern Minnesota. And I guess the wire service never reached me. I was actually unaware of the Roswell incident that was casually mentioned in our newspapers perhaps as late as a month later. Who knows? But northern Minnesotans weren't too worried about what happened in Mexico. So what did Pavley Anderson tell you happened? He said that he had an unusual job to perform while he's in his Air Force service. That he transported wreckage and bodies of the alien people to Ohio. It was that simple. Jack was a man a few words, really, in our habit the way we dealt and talked with each other. We really didn't waste much time. We said it and that's that. There's nothing more to it. Did he describe any of the wreckage to you? Not really at that time. It was just a smashed pile of, I guess, space wreckage space craft garbage. And I guess some of the passengers there on suffered their death, of course. I really was more or less privileged to just be listening. So I refrained from asking a lot of questions. But he did say that these people were small and that there were quite a number of them. He never described the actual number to me since I've, of course, been filled in somewhat. I'm still not sure that there were what they even claim now. There may have been a lot more. Did he describe their appearance any further than saying they were small? Not to me. I think he found the kind of distasteful. He walked tuned into Jack's feelings. If something was bothering him, I'd be sort of aware of it very soon. Do you know what kind of craft he flew to Wright Patterson? Well, as a Navy man, I wasn't too familiar with what the Army Air Corps and their Air Force had. My experience with airplanes ended with the Taylor craft and papers and Aranca sedans and things like that. Pre-World War II, things that I flew. The rest of it, I haven't been lost. But it was one of the B-29 perhaps. Did he say what his take-off point was? Well, I assumed it was riseable. He did not say to me where it was from. But he did say that he was going to Wright Patterson? Yep, that's where he did say it. He said that the remains were there. And he said very likely in a frozen state, which would lead me to believe that being the case, that autopsy work was being planned would have undoubtedly been performed. Did he relate any information following this flight that would shed some light on what the wreckage or the bodies were all about? No, it was perhaps about a year later. We were meeting again under about the same circumstances. We decided to have a game of pool. And when we had a little break in our game, well, I produced this piece of metal for me to look at. He said, what do I think of it? I said, well, it's different. And I felt it in that did feel it. And I studied it. I was able to determine that it's a metal. The structure was different than the alloys like we have in our aircraft, for instance. And, of course, he did preface this question by stating this was from this craft. Apparently, I think it was a case of appropriation that he acquired this for future study, perhaps. At any rate, I gave it a good thorough looking at it and decided that it was an alloy that we are not used to or we have not. We don't think we do. But there is a possibility we may be able to come up with something like it. What do you guys think? Roundabout statement. How about describing it for me? What did it look like, feel like? Well, it was a gray lustrous metal that resembled aluminum. It was lighter in weight and much stiffer. If you're familiar with aluminum alloy, it's like ST-37. It was a very stiff, tough aluminum. This was harder and stiffer than that. Could you bend it? No. And I didn't want to try it. The edges were pretty sharp. And Jack didn't want to let it out of his personal ownership. So I couldn't take it into my lab and do some testing on it because I really would like to... Number one, I'd like to have found out what it would take to machine it. In other words, machine is language to mill it. That decision came as a result of our having made an alloy similar to it, which up to this point no one's been able to scratch it, so to speak. But that's kind of beside the point. I think this is one of the reasons that Jack showed me this piece because our association had gone on quite a few years and he trusted me in it. And I didn't tell anybody about it. I think this is my first discussion for the meeting as of this day. Publicly. What did he do with this piece of metal? He put it in his pocket and that's the last I've seen of it. It's probably in his personal effects somewhere. His wife states that there's many boxes of his things that she has gone through or opened or looked at. It could be that piece is there. And I'd certainly recognize it if it were. The feeling was that the metal itself didn't have a crystal lattice structure like alloys that we make. It was more of a amorphous form. And the fractures of the edges were more like fractures rather than tears. As I recall, they had a kind of coiled appearance like a plate glass or bottled glass, for instance, would have if you break it. Smooth concave shapes with real sharp edges. What's significant about that? Well, it indicates that it's not crystalline, which may have a lot to do with its physical properties, perhaps in flight or resistance to heat entrance and exit. I know we're using non-metallic materials like Osteotae, coat our shuttles with and so on to absorb the heat. This apparently didn't mean that. With your background, your knowledge of metallurgy, would you think that this was something that would have been easily manufactured using technology available at the time you saw this material? Well, I don't think it's been easy for us to do that. I think we're looking at pretty high temperatures and smelling one thing. I think now, perhaps it would be easier. They have refractories, for instance, have changed. My conferences are smellers. They're able to tolerate better temperatures, higher temperatures. And then we have, let's say, more sophisticated temperature control, things of that nature that would be needed to perfect an alloy like that. I do think that the metal, and I think that should be used with the quotation marks, the metal is a salacious alloy. That's my own opinion. What does that mean to the lamell? Well, that it's a compound of silicon with whatever the main constituent metal itself would be. We found some in the United States, the atomic weight, which appears to be somewhere very close to iridium. And the fact that it causes a considerable problem, and, for instance, the lab techs reading the plates because of the overlay of the lines, the spectral lines. In fact, there's one material that was smelling. The button made which proved to be a similar alloy. But it's one we made ourselves. We had a lot more to say here. What is your own belief about what this fragment was from? What does it represent? Well, I think it was one of the structural parts. Not the thinner materials. I know that Jack himself, well, he stated to me as far as the thin materials go, that that was the lining of the crafts when properly energized and produced perfect elimination inside. That you had a total easy light with no shadows. But that's why I asked today this gentleman, I think it was Jesse, that had his hands on some of that thin material if he had seen it in the dark. I guess he hadn't paid any attention to it. He's pretty young then anyway. That would be kind of interesting to see if it could be energized or polarized, maybe as tall it would need to be. It's hard to say. Take a little scientist, maybe one of our physicists friends, who could tackle that and might place up with a piece of that. It's barely possible. What do you think this was from though? What was this thing that was recovered? I think that metal that thin material was different. I didn't see any of it. I've seen other pictures and so on. I don't think that's the same metal. Is it your feeling that this was from an extraterrestrial spacecraft? Oh yes. Well, there's no question in my mind about that. The one craft that crashed, as they said, was just split open, the color of it, the way it looked. That photo is about the way that piece that I had to look at looked. I'm sorry, which photo were we talking about here? Well, whether it was a drawing or a painting or a reconstruction, I don't really know, but it was here today that I saw that. That's one of us what it looked like. Slightly mistreated, maybe, by temperatures. No doubt in your mind, though, that this was from outer space? I have no question about what it was from outer space. The bodies? The reason we don't have a franchise on the universe. I'm sure you're interested in my thinking on that matter. I don't think we have a franchise on being the only good guys and or bad guys either in that matter in the universe. Obviously, this was something that was considered to be highly secret. Pappy Henderson wouldn't have shared this with you without a foundation of trust. Right. Well, he asked me to observe the protocol, not mention it, which I did. I was kind of surprised to find that he'd taken a couple other people into his confidence. One of which was Bill, who was here today. Also, there is another one that we discovered. This was one of our naval helicopter pilots who is retired now. He was aware of what Pappy had seen. He was pretty choosy about who he talked to, I think. Did he express any feelings about the secrecy aspect or why it was that he wanted to share this information with? Well, Jack had become ill with Adno Carcinomo. I would guess that he probably wanted to leave it. I think Bill Lonsbury expressed that notion. He wanted to leave it just in case he did die, which is what Dolly did. He had great hopes that he would be given a ride. It probably would have occurred by now. It seemed like he had it sort of set up at some point. It's beyond my knowledge of his activity. But you know, you take the case at Switzerland event. In the Fledian arrivals there, in fact, all the footage that was made of those spacecraft. Which, incidentally, I've seen some of the film on that. It greatly resembles our channel 13. That's the right channel in LA. That photograph, the two that flew over just in Anaheim or Orange. They just came in and made us whooping in and out. And someone just happened to be taking some pictures and hence the photograph in action. And the films proved to be genuine. And those looked, for all the world, exactly like the ones in Switzerland. Pappy made a great effort to apprise me of all that Swiss things. In fact, he spent quite a bit of money on books for me and things of that nature. Some of which involved some of our own military where they were doing intensive study to verify the authenticity of these Swiss landings. And they, I think to a man on these panels concluded that they were real. And all the school children over there, I've seen pictures and movies of those people. You can't have 38 kids all give you the same story, usually on anything. But on this one issue, there was no question about it. Plus the description of the squadron commander in that case was a lady. And her squadron was three. And she described her craft and allowed him to photograph. As far as this metal fragment is concerned, do you have any idea where it is now, today? No, I don't. I think if it's anywhere, it'd be in his personal effects. It was pretty traumatic when Jack died at that time. Her daughter's mother-in-law was in Burial. So they just packed Sappho up out of her apartment and moved her to LA to help take care of the soul lady. And I think, as Sappho said, if it's anywhere, it's in some of the old boxes. They haven't even opened yet. So I'm going to look into that when I return. See if I can maybe answer to go ahead. Well, if I get it, it will hit right straight from my safety deposit box, and then I'll get it on the telephone. And I won't tell them which bank it's in. They'll have to kidnap me. Well, thank you, Dr. Cropshaw. I appreciate it. You're very welcome. I'm hopeful that I'll strengthen what you're thinking in some ways. Well, if I find that metal, I'll send it back here. And I should know... I think there was one gentleman... Somebody on our board? David Schwartzman, I bet you. Yeah. He's a geologist at Howard University. Yeah. Okay. I thought he'd be the one... He seemed to be the most interested in that piece of metal and also in the spelling techniques that were developed to... I bet you know about that stuff. Yeah. Well, he really got a kick out of what I told him about our misfiring and trying to cut that at John Hopkins University. Uh-huh. I mean, Stanford University. Uh-huh. And one of our government facilities that I think has a unit there, this button that was made went to for cutting an analysis while he couldn't cut it. And he sent it back there and a few scratches, and it broke every metal blade they had in that lab that he gave up on it. Now, this was of what? A test of... What we think is a similar one. Uh-huh. That was why Jack got me involved. Oh, that's right. Yeah. That's really... And it goes way back. How'd you hear about this test at Stanford? Well, I didn't know when I sent it to him. Oh. So I'm into it that far, you know. So you got this piece of metal? Or something? Yeah. From whom? The button that went to Stanford. Right. I made it. Oh, okay. This is a fabricated... Yeah. Say, not something... Okay, I want to make sure I understand that. Okay. Dr. Premchard, could I get you to sign that for me? Sure. You can read it first if you want.