 So it's really nice if you come down a little closer to this really extraordinary panel that we are very fortunate to have with us this afternoon. I mean, honestly, what could be better than talking about Botswap Havel with our Secretary Nanlind Albright and Havel's great friend and spokesperson, Ambassador Martin Palouche, and to have performed right before our very eyes excerpts from Havel's protest. You know, these are pretty bleak times as we can't avoid repeating, and it is so great to be reminded of those bleak piercing lights in other bleak times. So we should all take a heart, I think, and be inspired. I'm not sure that I need to introduce the panelists. I think you can figure out that we are so honored to have our very distinguished faculty member. I really can say beloved faculty member, legendary faculty member, former Secretary Nanlind Albright. There is a tone that students who are in her courses adopt when they say they're in her courses. And this is a tone of kind of excitement and reverence all at once. And they always have a big grin on their faces. They just can't avoid it. It's really a great experience that Georgetown students are so lucky to have. And it's also wonderful to have her great friend and also Havel's great friend, Ambassador Martin Palouche, who is now living in the United States. You can see his bio, but he is leading a center in Florida on Brasov Havel and human rights. Very appropriate. Human rights and diplomacy. Two words, we don't hear together enough, but someone is doing. And we're also very fortunate to have Susan Galbraith, the artistic director of the Alliance for New Music Theater, who have produced the performance and produced it on the road of which we are going to see excerpts. So what I'd like to do is to begin with one of the readings from Havel's play, Protest. And we're lucky to have with us David Milstone and Drew Valens, who will bring this team to life. A very short introduction, but I also want to connect for our distinguished guests what I have been able to experience the last couple of days. And I want to tie two things that have been themes. One, the idea that artists are disturbors of the peace, and of course Baslav Havel, as some of you may know, wrote one of the many things he wrote was called Disturbing the Peace. And the other theme that has come up, especially yesterday, was the whole idea of hope. So this is from Disturbing the Peace, and I just want to read one definition from Mr. Havel. Hope is definitely not the same thing as optimism. It is not the conviction that something will turn out well, but the certainty that something makes sense, regardless of how it turns out. So in this first scene from Protest, a little short excerpt, two friends have just reconnected after a long separation. They had once been part of a radical dissident group. In the intervening years, Vanyek, played by Drew Valens, has served time in prison as a political prisoner, while Stanyek, David Milstone, has managed to stay out of trouble, carve out some commercial success as a television writer, and live in comparative comfort. Sometimes, but not the politicals. I thought about it to a great deal, you know. Thank you. I bet in those days it never even occurred to you. What? Well, how it all ended up. I bet not even you could have guessed that. Hmm. Well, it's disgusting. Furman hand. It's disgusting. The nation is governed by scum. The people. I mean, can this really be the same nation that not all that long ago behaved so magnificently? All that horrible, bowing, cringing, and scraping of the selfishness, corruption, and fear wherever you turn? What have they made of us, old pal? Can this really be us? Well, I don't really believe things are as black as all that. Well, you'll forgive me, Ferdinand, but you don't happen to live in a normal environment. I mean, all you know are people who manage to resist to this rot. You just keep on supporting one another. You have no idea the kind of environment I have to put up with. Anything to do with it anymore. It makes you sick to your stomach. You mean television? In the film studios, you name it. There was a piece by you on TV the other day. You won't believe what an ordeal that was first. They kept walking it for over a year. Then they started changing it all around. They changed my whole opening, the entire closing sequence. You wouldn't believe the trifles that they find objectionable these days. There's nothing but sterility and intrigues, intrigues and sterility. How often I tell myself, wrap it up, chum, forget it, hide away someplace, grow apricots. I know what you mean. The thing is, one can't help wondering if one has a right to this sort of escape. I mean, supposing that little one might be able to accomplish today can, in spite of everything, help someone in some way, at least give him a little bit of encouragement, uplift him a little. And I'm going to get you a pair of slippers. Slippers? Why? You can't be comfortable with those boots. I'm all right. Are you sure? Yes. Really? But drugs? Did they give you any? Or dubious injections? Only some vitamin ones. I bet there's some funny stuff in the food. Just bromine against sex. Well, surely they tried to break you down somehow. Well... No, if you don't want to talk about it, that's all right with me. Well, that's the whole point of pretrial interrogations, isn't it? To bring one down a peg or two? And to make one talk? You know, they should haul me in for questioning, which sooner or later is bound to happen. You know what I'm going to do? What? Simply not answer any of their questions. Refuse to speak to them at all. That is by far the best way. At least that way. One can be quite sure one hasn't said anything when not to have said. Okay. Anyway, you must have steel nerves to bear up under it all, and then the addition to keep on doing the things that you do. Like what? Oh, I mean all the protests, the petitions, the letters, the whole fight for human rights, the things that you and your friends keep on doing. I'm not doing so much. Don't be too modest for that. I know. I follow everything that goes on. Oh, if everybody did what you do, the situation would be quite different, and that is a fact. It's extremely important that we have at least a few people here who are unafraid to speak the truth aloud to defend others, to call a spade a spade? And what I'm going to say is going to sound a bit solemn perhaps. Frankly, the way I see it, you and your friends have taken on an almost superhuman task to preserve and to carry the remains, the remnants, the moral conscience through the present glad minor. The threat, your spinning, may be thin, but who knows? Perhaps the hope of a moral rebirth of the nation hands on. You exaggerate. That's the way I see it anyway. Surely our hope lies in all of the decent people. For how many of them are still around? How many? Enough. Are there? Still, it's you and your friends who are most exposed to you. Yes, but isn't that precisely what makes it easier for us? I wouldn't say so. Because the more you're exposed, the more responsibility you have to all those who know about you, trust you, rely on you, and look up to you. Because in some respects, you are holding their honor too. And I'm going to get you those slippers. Please, don't bother. Always insisted that he was not Vanya. But he also said that the plays, the Vanya character, which also appeared in other people's plays, the plays were not about what Vanya said. They were about the responses that he provoked in those around him. See how powerfully that worked. We've just seen this fantastic passage about friendship. So I want to start with that. With these two friends, all different kinds of friends, different parts of his life. And you in mind, Madam Secretary, at the beginning, tell us a little bit about your friendship. You could easily talk about that for the next hour and a half. I'm going to have to ask you to condense it and maybe focus a little bit on when he first came to America. But tell us how you can. Well, thank you. And I'm delighted to be here and very moved by what you've done so far. The great play. So, and thank you. And we are friends too. So, but let me just say the following thing. What happened was, I was born in Czechoslovakia and I was writing my dissertation on the role of the Czechoslovak press in 1968, Prague Spring. And what happened, there was a man that appeared in the United States. His name was usually Dean Spear who had kept Radio Prague on the air all through the Soviet invasion. And he was sent to the United States basically to be kept safe. And I spent my time at the Library of Congress reading the newspapers, and Dean Spear would made it all come alive for me because he could tell me who the people were and all that. He went back to Czechoslovakia and was arrested a number of times in a complicated story. But with the Velvet Revolution he became the foreign minister. And I called him up and the phone call went right through and I said, what can I do to help? And he said, help the students. They're the ones that did the Velvet Revolution. So, I then do go to Prague on January 90. I went with the National Democratic Institute and Dean Spear first took me to audience which is another part of the set of plays. So, we did that in the evening. And then he said, come by the foreign ministry to see me. And I went and I did that. And by the way, my father had been Chief of Staff to Jan Masaryk Foreign Minister when I was a little girl. And I'd been to that office when I was six years old. And so it was very, or seven, I was taken back to this office and I'm sitting there. Do you remember it? Yes, you know. So, anyway, so then Dean Spear says, would you like to meet Hubble? And I said yes. So, we go over to the castle to meet him. And I happen to have a copy of a book my father wrote called 20th Century Czechoslovakia. And I'm handing it to President Hubble. And he says, I know who you are. You're Mrs. Fulbright. And I said, no, I'm Mrs. Albright. And that was the beginning of our friendship. And what happened was, he then asked me, they were all dressed in blue jeans and black turtles. And he said, would you go with my advisors to this restaurant right around the corner and explain to them, because I had said that I'd worked for President Carter. And he explained what a presidential office looks like and how it all works. So I'm there drawing various diagrams. And then, it was January. It was snowing. And I walked back to my hotel. And I had my only out-of-body experience, which was, I thought I'd never left here. And then I thought, well, I wouldn't know what a president's office looked like if I hadn't left here. But it really was the beginning of a friendship. President Havel came to the United States. And I did all the advance for the trip. And the first thing he did was come to Georgia for a trip the first thing he did was come to Georgetown to meet with the students. Because he really did want to start that way. And we were friends from then on. And it was the most, there's no other way to describe it. Being friends with somebody like him was incredible and fun and very moving. And it's one of the greatest joys of my life. Wonderful answer. We'll come back to some of your experiences together. But Ambassador Palucia, I've turned to you now because you knew Havel before he was president, Havel, and helped him along the way there. But also knew him in his younger years. So give us a sense of that friendship first as a regular person then someone who's in the struggle with you. And then the inspiration for you and really the whole country. First of all, thank you very much for inviting me to this very interesting and I would say important event or gathering. I will try to give you a very brief grocery dates in my life in 1968. I was close to 18. 1977. Charter 77's Origin. 1989. A Velvet Revolution. I met Havel for the first time as a young student. Just shake his hand. Nothing more in the fall of 1968 when our revolution of that year was lost. So many thanks were already there and people started to change in the process of so-called normalization. 1977 was that really brought us together as active friends. Everybody who decided to sign Charter 77 had to be aware of the fact that it's going to be a great loss for him. Loss of opportunities, loss of career, many unpleasant troubles being exposed to secret police and so on and so forth. Checking out detention cells also prisons from inside and I can go on and on. But there was a significant compensation for this loss and it was friendships. You could really establish in this moment these friendships were much more genuine. They were not dependent on I would say that you had same taste or you believed in same ideas. You were in the same situation and the feeling of solidarity and being together was very strong and Havel was a very important person in that respect and 89 was a crazy year of revolutionary action that was certainly not I would say intended made think I don't want to pretend that we were revolutionaries having clear idea what we are doing. We were put into certain situation in which we had to act in a way and not lose the opportunity that was offered by that situation and now we have to have the inspiration. I just would like to repeat now what Havel kept saying whenever his plays were to be presented every good play must be more clever than its author. It had to be able to articulate something more than his intentions to make someone in all of us to ask questions to be just seeing this beautiful performance I think that Havel's absurdity is here it's not just what we had 35 years ago in Czechoslovakia this conversation could take place today as it took place when Havel tried to articulate that so I think that inspiration by Havel is that it starts to be active in the moment when we accept his philosophy of his play he always said that don't want to see too cheap I would say comparison play is not imitation of real world play is creating its own world and you have to first establish connection so the question is who is Waniak and who is Staniak Havel is not Waniak but I guess that he has also his Staniak inside of himself so I think that this is a very interesting play it was written in 1978 after he spent his first four months in jail when he became a spoke person of chapter 77 and he made terrible mistake there in this when he was in Ruzine he was aware of it he was writing about that later and when he was sentenced to four years prison later he believed himself that it was some sort of right punishment he was deserving for his mistake his mistake was that he started to talk to his interrogators not to betray his friends but because he was a man of communication and he really was only checking out this strange world you never know without telling it and then his greatest was that act on his experience and turn it into knowledge because this is what theater is about make a tragic experience and then turn it into some sort of knowledge so what you are using now you are definitely speaking to an audience for whom those words resonate because you're speaking to an audience of theater makers plenty of work in very challenging circumstances not that different from what people endured in his time so this play and what you're saying both of you are saying is a really timely relevance for this audience in particular and we are definitely going to give you all a chance to ask your questions as well I think now let's turn to the second excerpt and then we'll talk a little more about Havel's legacy and other aspects that were important to him such as music and then we'll turn to just one thing of course most of you know that the plays were banned from public performance and so they were done in apartment performances and which meant you know private living rooms of people and I just want to say part of what the experience then must have been electrifying as this is in a way because we have one of the signers of Charter 77 and both of you being friends of Havel would have been the audience that would have been watching it and knowing the characters and knowing the inside jokes as you do and you're also watching them watch this so I'm very conscious of this that's happening so for the second excerpt this is while it becomes clear that Stanek has invited Wanyek over to help him leverage assistance in this case it's to release a young musician in the story the tables are turned when we discover that Wanyek also has an ask of Stanek so I'll just leave it at that what do you think about my idea of writing some sort of protest I guess that's the sort of thing you had in mind what that's a laugh isn't it oh here I am with my brain how to go about it finally I take the plunge and consult you and all this time we've had the whole thing wrapped up and ready to go isn't it marvelous I knew I was doing the right thing when I turned to you haha yeah there it's precisely what I had in mind it's brief to the point emphatic it's manifestly the work of a professional now I'd be sweating over this I've never come up with anything remotely like this listen just a small point though here at the end do you think that um willfulness is the right word to use I mean could a one fine and milder synonym perhaps I mean it somehow seems a bit misplaced you know I mean the whole text is composed in very measured factual terms that sounds far too emotional wouldn't you agree otherwise it's absolutely perfect haha well maybe the second paragraph in fact it's just a rehash of the first oh except for this reference here to your vorac's impact on non conformist you oh this is excellence oh it must stay in how about putting it at the end instead of your willfulness wouldn't that do the trick oh my personal impressions oh good heavens why should you listen to what I have to say on the whole the text is excellent and will no doubt hit the mark ugh let me say it again vertian how much I admire you your knack for expressing the fundamental points of an issue while avoiding all needless abuses indeed rare among our clients come on you don't really mean that haha anyway it's good to know that one's always around but somebody around wouldn't be turning to and rely on in a case like this but it's only natural isn't it oh it may seem so to you but the circles were eyed to move it's not at least fit natural the natural response is much more likely to be the exact opposite when a man gets into trouble everyone drops him the lot of them out of fear for their own positions they tell all and some they never had anything to do with him on the contrary they sized him up right away and they had this number why am I telling you all this I mean you know the best the sort of thing that happens right I mean when you were in prison the long time theater pals held forth against you on television it was revolting I'm not angry with them but I am what's more I told them so in no uncertain terms you know a man in my position has to learn to put up with a lot of things but forgive me there are limits I appreciate might be awkward for you to blame them because you happen to be the injured party who listen to me you have to distance yourself from the affair just think once we too begin to tolerate this sort of muck we have a facto assuming co-responsibility for the entire moral morass and indirectly contributing to its deeper penetration my rights we're still collecting signatures how many have you got so far about 50 50 not bad never mind I guess I just missed the boat is all no you have but the thing's already in hand yes but now it's already sent off and published and you can't see the value you know only print measly little news item which is bound to be overlooked better hand it over directly to one of the big European papers so the whole text gets published including all the signatures yes I know they already know about it I suppose not I look here I don't want to give you any advice but it seems to me you ought to wrap the whole thing up as soon as possible or else they'll get wind of it and try to find a way to stop it 50 signatures shouldn't be enough besides what counts a number of signatures but there's significance each signature has its own significance absolutely but as far as publicity abroad is concerned it is essential to the few well-known names be represented Pavel son good his name no matter what one might think impersonally does mean something in the world today absolutely of course no doubt listen heard of that? there's one more thing I wanted to discuss with you it's a big delegate though oh I'm a I'm no millionaire you know but so far I've managed to I'm good for you well look I was thinking a lot of your friends have lost their jobs and well I was thinking would you be prepared to accept for me a certain sum of money that's very nice of you some of my friends do indeed find themselves in a bit of a spot but there are problems you know I mean one is never quite sure how to go about it often those that most need help are most reluctant to accept well you're not going to be able to work miracles with what I can afford but I expect there are situations in which every penny counts here please a small offering thank you very much let me thank you on behalf of all my friends gracious, pertinent we have to help each other out right by the way there's no need for you to mention that this little contribution comes from me I mean I don't wish to erect a monument to myself I'm sure you've gathered that much by now yes again many thanks good well ha what about taking a look at the garden Mr. Stunning yes we'd like to send it off tomorrow what the protest excellent so that's today today you should think about getting some sleep that's the main thing remember you have a bit of a hangover from last night and tomorrow's going to be a hard day for you yes I know everyone go straight home and unplug the phone else Lendofsky brings you up again and everyone knows how you end up I know I was only going to say we've only got a few signatures left to collect it won't take long I was just going to say I mean don't you think that it would be helpful as a matter of fact it would of course it would be sensational after all everybody has wrecked your crash oh come on for a man it was 15 years ago yes but it's never been forgotten what do you mean sensational I'm sorry I was under the impression that you'd actually like to what participate are you talking about this is that what you're talking about yes you mean I I was under the impression that's a laugh isn't it what's a laugh oh come on you're going to see how absurd it is can't you you want to ask you over hoping you'd write something about your vertex case you produced a finished text and much more one furnished with 50 signatures I'm bowled over like a little child I can't believe my eyes and ears I worry about ways to stop them from ruining your project and all this time it never occurs to me to do the one simple and natural thing I ought to have done in this case I mean I once signed the document myself you must admit it's absurd listen for a minute isn't this a really terrifying testimony into the situation into which we live on I mean just there even I though I know it's rubbish even I have gotten used to the idea that the signing of protests is the business of local specialists professionals in solidarity dissidents whereas the rest of us whenever we want to do something for the sake of ordinary human decency we automatically turn to you as if you're a sort of service establishment for moral matters in other words we're here simply to keep our mouths shut and be rewarded by a little peace and quiet whereas you're here to speak up for us and to be rewarded by glows on earth and glory in the heavens perverse isn't it and we managed to bring things to such a point even a fairly intelligent and decent fellow which with your permission I still think I am more or less ready to take the situation for granted as if it were quite normal perfectly natural sickening isn't it sickening the depths we've reached what do you say makes one want to puke huh do you think the nation can never recover from all of this it's hard to say but what can one do what can one do seems clear doesn't it in theory that is everyone to start with himself however is this country inhabited only by vanias doesn't seem that everyone can become a fighter for human rights not everyone no where is it what the list of signatures of course I think the first thing I want to ask is just to get both of your responses to that scene and what it evokes for you and what you know of haval I remember you saying Madam Secretary that if you want to understand haval you just need to read his plays so I'd love to hear from both of you what that evokes from you well I think it was brilliant and I think you are able to make it him and people around him come alive so thank you I think that what it evokes is in so many ways that we are and he made this clear that we are mixed in terms of can we really be brave or are we then people that step back what is really important to do something and how hard it is to sign your name and to really stand up for something at the same time a sense of guilt about not really being able to step up to it but it's brilliantly written and brilliantly acted and I think shows that how we have both kinds of people within us and that there are times you have to really stand up and I do think in terms of when I met him the idea that first of all he was president of a country but more than that that he had been to prison for what he believed in and what it was like and various things that he had gone through and then to see the very human part in him in every way that he treasured friendships and that he understood that not everybody would stand up the way he did and I think he was surprised sometimes I don't know if you'd agree Martin that he had stood up in a certain way because he was I think he was a very humble man and and I think that that is the part but it's interesting because he was this figure but when he came to the United States one of the things that he had to go on television and things and he was really bad on television and one of the reasons was that he never looked at the camera and when you asked why he said because I've been interrogated and if you get interrogated they get your eyes and you do not look into people's eyes so the experiences that he had I think are the kinds that I appreciate first of all very excellent performance it was a kind of machine of time taking me back to the 1970s and 80s in Czechoslovakia because obviously the scenes like that when people were hesitating what they should do and they had all sort of apologies for themselves it was a real reality so I was thinking do are we still in the same situation today inspired of the fact that you inject Republic now with democracy and certainly these type of petitions or protests are taking place in a slightly different context but I think that what was important there to ask was it a dialogue between two different people or dialogue inside of us between two advisors we have inside and I think that this was something very important for Havel a very classical thing I think Greeks have a name for it Anamesis capability to bring to activity certain internal forces in us that are normally sleeping and then you can make up your mind and make foolish things that goes against all advices of common sense and to sign petition even if you know that those who are going to be reading this petition cannot care less about the result so this is a very peculiar situation and the second thing that was coming to my mind again and again was when Vatsav Havel out of some became president switched from being dissident to being president he was a little bit nervous in his role because he didn't want to be I would say a service man for the moral conscience of other people he kept saying it's up to all of us for me and for you but don't impose on me your own responsibilities but as the president it was so easy to celebrate out of sudden our prince from the fairy tale that ended well that got rid us of that dragon or that king or whoever was his opponent and now we can only about and forget again about this inner self that is in us Havel spoke certainly much less than his interlocutors I think that it was very nicely demonstrated in his performance that words and deeds can sometimes serve different different goals different objectives when some people speak too much they may want to just hide something from themselves when they are silenced they may be raising important questions by being silenced I think that comes beautifully put and I think it comes across so clearly in this for someone of course never had the chance to know Vatsav Havel you see just embedded in this passage the kind of the integrity and also the humility and the humanity of this person that you can really imagine with this blue jeans and black term like people did want to elect a president that's a rare combination all of those three things it's really it's so beautifully crossed thank you all so much I'd like to touch on just a couple aspects of Havel and take it into the relevance for today and maybe touch Madam Secretary a little bit on Eastern Europe today but first I want to touch on another aspect of the arts because we're here in a group of mostly theater makers but above all creative people who are engaged in political issues wherever they live and the importance of music for Havel I always remember him saying jazz we have to hope freedom align when he first came to the White House but you had some great jazz experiences with him well there's no question that music played a very important part in the whole dissident movements and any aspect of it and plastic people of the universe and various kinds of music what happened in the 80s when I would go and by the way the first time I went to Czechoslovakia with my American name and husband and passport was in 1967 and I was told at the time that my father had been tried in absentia and sentenced to death well it turns out he wasn't sentenced to death but he was tried in absentia so I didn't feel real great about going back until I was asked through USIA to go and do some talks there and I was under the protection of the US government and so they said that I needed to go and meet these people where jazz was a big thing in Czechoslovakia but they not only were actual musicians but they also created a political movement and so I had, it was the only cloak and dagger thing I ever did was I was told to go meet a man in a trench coat by a big day and then he was going to take me to this place where they were gathered and so we got on the metro in Prague and he says you stand very close to me so we can pretend we're lovers and I'm like oh my god I got myself into it but we end up at this place which was the jazz section and their most valuable thing they had were issues of rolling stone and so and it's very interesting the part about the money reminded me of something which is that I was trying to figure out how to be helpful and so I gave all the money that we had to them and then we were trying to figure out if I could send them money and so I came back here and I did some kind of a money order for $600 which I'll always forget and so then I got a message back from the head of this man saying thanks for the 600 kisses so we figured out it would work but I think the issue of jazz really the fact that it became kind of central to the political movement and so when Hubble came to the United States he loved we went to many many jazz clubs and had a great time and he loved it and then he also loved Lou Reed and so one of the things we did when there was a state dinner for Hubble at the White House with President Clinton they in fact Lou Reed came but the funniest part when I went to Prague with President Clinton was at that time you an ambassador and it was decided that we would go to a jazz club and it was shortly after President Clinton's mother had died and people weren't sure if he wanted to do that but he did want to do it we go to a club and they gave President Hubble gave him a saxophone and so then President Clinton played the saxophone by the way Hubble played some kind of instrument showed he had absolutely no rhythm but it was the music part of it was really important and if I may say so I think jazz is our best ambassador and when I was Secretary of State I got very involved with the Thelonious Monk Jazz Institute which is for children to get them really interested in music and the sense that music the power that music really gives to you but Hubble loved the music and then when the first elections came Paul Simon came and he sang in the Old Town Square and the whole great aspect of not just jazz but American music American music that really made a big difference really wonderful memories and of course there was the whole aspect of the inherently dissonant nature of American jazz traveling abroad particularly in the 60s and 70s still in the 80s African American musicians being sent by the US government the same government that often didn't even allow them in the front door of the theaters where they were performing in the United States and that they would speak openly about that and I didn't speak openly about it that made such a strong impression on people what is this place where you can criticize the government and instead of putting you in jail they just put you on the plane and so there was inherent nature of the music and then that very interesting dichotomy of the performers and the music did you want to comment on that Martin also? Small comments with all the respect I don't think it was just only rock music was extremely important and so it was trial with plastic people of the universe that was one of the original impulse for creation of Charlie 77 and there were people who were certainly Professor Batochka not fan of this type of music he preferred Beethoven and Sebastian Bach but as act of solidarity he went along the greatest inspiration I think was Herbert Underground because and underground participation in the whole process gave to the movement certain rhythm and certain liveliness that otherwise with all these boring intellectuals would not be that so just to be very clear about that Wasabelle himself I have to say that was not very talented musician actually other way around the only thing he could do was that he occasionally can serve as a percussionist or this was what he there are several recommendations on that but certainly music was a very important part of our liberation process it was drawn by us she showed up in Czechoslovakia in 1988 so different type of music and she had a concert in Bratislava and then Wasabelle was allowed to appear on the stage introduced by her some American musicians were helping us to get things moving under the occasion of 20th anniversary maybe it was although there it was a fantastic celebration with all sorts of musicians Louis was there Joan Baez was there Susan Vega was there Fleming, famous opera singer René Fleming and they were singing together which was most unbelievable thing we had it recorded and it can be shown on a movie tell me where you can see Louis singing with René Fleming in rock you know what's so interesting about that is that two things, one the fact that the American musicians were really important but also plastic people of the universe, the people, the local people who adapted the rock music I think of at least one diplomat who really did have with him, Andrásimony the former ambassador from Hungary who came here, gave his first public address at the rock and roll museum in Cleveland and always spoke about how much as a teenager rock and roll music had meant to him one of the plastic people had their process one of the people that was tried was the pastor of the church who was musician on his own right he had his own protest songs and so all these were very important inspirations especially attracted young generation of people to become part of that crazy group started with Charlie 77 it makes me think of one of the great miscalculations of all time when the East German government handed Bruce Springsteen to give a concert in East Berlin because what had been happening is so many musicians were going to West Berlin and they would play right at the wall with the speakers going over to East Berlin so all the young people were going to the wall to hear the concert so they thought we'll have our own concert right in the middle far away from the wall and that'll be enough and then they'll stop worrying about this western music and of course 350,000 people came it was an incredible concert great act of diplomacy by Bruce Springsteen who introduced himself in German and spoke about freedom for the German people and not only that was the end but it was the end of East Germany not the end of rock music I didn't even guess that terribly well but this is I think so important for this audience who write narratives to move people and what we're trying to do here is kind of bridge this gap which I don't know if you'll agree with me I think somewhat exists at least in this country where there are incredibly moving narratives and people engaging we just have an incredible panel on immigration with these really searing stories very recognizable about immigration and yet what we're trying to do in the lab is bridge this gap that kind of exists in this country between policymakers and yes it's true now but I think it's been true in the past too to somehow I'm curious if you have thoughts on how we could do something to have policymakers listen more seriously to these narratives not just here but also in other countries and recognize we have Professor Wally Schoenke sitting listening to us who's you know he is recognized all over Nigeria we've had people running up to him in the street recognizing him shouting prof prof you know I don't think anyone's ever done that to me I'm not expecting that to happen anytime soon but you know the power of writing here in music here and also abroad seems always to be put a little bit to the side when it comes to actually making the policy whereas you know people like Hubble represented what people were really thinking I do think that music especially is a common language and is able to really transform the stories but the stories in many ways in countries are similar in terms of family relationships or bravery and I think it's a way to really unite people however I'm going to tell you something that may surprise you policy and music I have played the drums at Kennedy Center Tony so I don't know how to play the drums but I did do it but I do think that there are ways what needs to happen is for policy makers to have a human side and to be able to really have a relationship with the people of their own country and other countries and you don't see that enough and so I think showing humanity and I have tons of stories about Hubble in terms of being a kind person and a humble person and wanting to be able to make that leap and to be able to put himself into other people's stories and his own stories I mean he really was remarkable you know many things in life I do not believe but that I would end up being good friends with somebody as remarkable as Vaslav Hubble about a country I'm an immigrant as I said people were and I hate to say this but it was embarrassing to be a Czechoslovak here when it was communism and modernization and the Hungarians had a revolution and the Poles revolted every 10 years and you know people would say what's the matter with your country and Hubble I think gave an awful lot of people like me kind of a sense that we had come from a remarkable country that had a great history with professors the first president of Czechoslovakia Thomas Mastryk married an American he did something that most men don't do to this day he took her maiden name as his middle name her name was Sharlath Garrick and the Czechoslovak Constitution Mastryk was a professor the Czechoslovak Constitution was based on the American one with one major difference it had equal rights language in it in 1918 we can learn a lot from many of countries in the world that's for sure here did you want to add anything Martin and then we'll turn to the audience mention that what is very interesting here is really the relationship between being politician and being playwrights that's there are not so many playwrights that turned out to be successful politicians there's a lot you just don't know I hope thanks god that you are here playwrights to be turned into politicians it was one very interesting commentary from British sociologist who commented on the history of Czechoslovakia in the 20th century and he said that Czechoslovakia was created by a professor or founded by a professor and it had some sort of professorial qualities sort of slightly idealistic belief that things are going to go well and that progress is something that we take as a guarantee and then he said what happened during the 20th century and Czechs when they had a second chance to regain their freedom they learned that professors run out and they had to be satisfied with a playwright but if you think about playwrights and their relationship to politics it's I think with all due respect to professors playwrights had a deeper knowledge what politics is about you can study it in ancient tragedies they knew how to transform tragic experience into some sort of knowledge and do catharsis and let me to remind you you know that better than I do what about William Shakespeare and his who advises to his actors play is the thing where I catch the conscience of a king the question is do kings have conscience I'm not so sure but maybe they do this is definitely a data role in playwrights I think I want to give everyone here a chance to ask some questions so we'll turn to you now I have a couple more questions of my own but I'll first see who has questions in the audience maybe if you wouldn't mind introducing yourself briefly first and asking an actual question Hi my name is Scott Nausman I'm a career life coach with a background at HBL and strategic planning the thing that really resonated is your comment that policy makers need to have a human side it's a little mind boggling that that's not a given and I'm kind of curious why you feel that is why is that even something that is necessary and or not a policy makers do not have a human side or are not presenting it I actually do think policy makers have a human side just some that exist at this moment in this country don't and so I think that there is a lot in what we just heard especially in the first segment of this that spoke to some of the things that are happening but I do think that part of the issue is that I think the decisions are hard to make and the question is whether if they have too much of a human side there has to be some kind of way of really having very make very difficult decisions but I do think that the policy makers do have a human side and I speak for myself things that I never thought I'd have to do is to send people to war in order to save other people and how do you make a decision like that and I think there's just a difficult way of kind of the facts are very difficult to grasp or look for instance at what's happening in Venezuela right now people are starving as a result of one policy maker and to what extent do other policy makers then deploy the powers of the United States in order to save them so it's hard it is very hard I do think that a lot of policy makers do have a human side I would say I think they do I think there is though I would just say I sense you may disagree in just a kind of ethos at least in the State Department of a kind of serious policy making and long term grand step strategy national interest which is not surprising but one area where I think artists here and in other countries can help humanize this politics you're all thinking oh that motto that motto right but one way which artists can help I think is if you listen to and read what's written listen to the music listen to what people are writing that tells you what the people in the country are thinking versus what the government is thinking so that kind of insight can help I think magnify that more human well I do think learning about the country where you are through the literature and theater and music I think is a very important part and if you are a good policy maker you try to do that and you put yourself into that country shoes and the question is what is the best way to do it and I do think by reading and the literature generally going to the theater also why I think is very important for our diplomats to actually speak the language of the country they're going to in addition to knowing where it is so I think that it is very important for that aspect to know that if you are a diplomat or a policy maker you have to get yourself into the shoes problem that happens you are then accused of having clientitis and so it is not easy and I think that one can be a policy maker and understand the humanity but not get so sentimental that you can't do anything there is a famous story about Secretary George Shultz I agree with that a group of newly minted ambassadors was meeting with him and he had a globe in his office and he spun it and said everybody find your country everyone is you know scrambling and of course there is only one right answer they were looking at the country they were going to not the country they represented do we have other questions go ahead Hi my name is Michael Rhodes thanks so much for being here and Madam Secretary I think this is a question for you we are talking about among other things I guess the power of narrative to impact and affect policy and we just have the Shakespeare quote to catch the conscience of the king and question about do kings have consciences and I guess this speaks as a writer purely from my naivete of what happens in the spaces that you are in but I am curious not just about the workings of kings and queens of diplomats and I am curious has it ever happened for you Madam Secretary where there was something that you gleaned for instance from this performance where we see two different sides of how a mind of two different people might relate to the notion of risk and resistance and you have found something that you could use to book a hole in someone's perhaps hypocrisy or fear as you dealt with them that something that arose for you through the story or drama or narrative gave you some sort of strategic nugget that actually allowed you in your room to try to go at someone in a different way as you were negotiating or doing your work well I do think that there is one very specific one and it had something to do where I met with one of the major things that I had to deal with as secretary was the Vulcans and very hard in many different ways and a strange issue particularly in terms of I always say every diplomat or every person comes with their personal baggage or their story and it's just an accident of history that my father had been Czechoslovak ambassador to Yugoslavia and so I was the little girl in the national costume that gave flowers at the airport and I understand the language and so what happened was that was the major issue to deal with and I'm with Milosevic who thought that he was very charming and western and urbane and all kinds of things and he's sitting there with me and he said I started the history of the Serbs and I said I know the history of the Serbs and he had his own version of it and I think that knowing that narrative was something that was very important in terms of how one dealt with it and I think the other thing that I used to do there's an awful lot of small talk at the beginning of a diplomatic meeting and I would say I have come a long way so I must be frank but knowing something about the country I think is a very important part and then putting yourself into that person's shoes is but I have to tell one very specific when I first was a predecessor of mine Warren Christopher was a wonderful man but he didn't speak French so the French care about whether you do or don't and I do speak French and so what happened by the way, Warren Christopher the foreign minister of France when he was there was Edvide de Charette and he called him Irvie de Charette so that didn't help but anyway I'm there and we are having a meeting and I started saying there's this great relationship between the United States and France and it goes back to Lafayette and all that and he said Madeline, for God's sakes don't be so sentimental we helped you because we hated the British so you do have to get kind of underneath the story sometimes Thank you very much I'm Cuban and I know how strongly Dr. Albright and Ambassador have spoken on behalf of Freedom Cuba presenting how all the history of the Czechs to this day give hope and courage to people in Cuba and Venezuela and other places Dr. Albright talks about their narrative with Milosevic perhaps she could say a few things about the books today who do not know the narrative of Marxism and communism even members of the U.S. Congress apparently are a little confused Thank you very much I think I'll thank you for that comment but I think I'll turn it into a question which would be about because you have had some experience with this play with the Cuban American community in Florida if I'm correct so it would be interesting to hear about the resonance that you found For the record Frank is an old friend and co-writer so he knows that our involvement with Cuban issue has a long history but let's speak about my very great experience with Havel's protest in Miami these two gentlemen had the opportunity to play not only at FIU in a theater on the stage but also in an apartment setting or in a private setting for a group of Cubans including a couple of those who happened to be at that moment in Miami traveling from Havana from Cuba so this is a certainly direct thing and if there is a very I would say receptive audience for Havel you can bet that among Cubans you can find for substantive reasons many, many great and others certainly I'm not qualified to speak about Marxism right now in the United States you know much better than I do I only can testify to the danger everyone who's believing that it's the right way to go is putting himself, herself or his, her nation so certainly Havel was strongly anti-totalitarian thinker and actor and I think the protest shows that this is a long way to go sometimes but always there is a light of tunnel in the end of the tunnel hopefully there's not a truck coming from the other side I do think it's interesting because I am before I was a policy maker I was a political scientist somebody that studied change in communist systems what was very interesting was what was happening in Central and Eastern Europe and what wasn't happening in Cuba and trying to figure out what was going on and part of it in Central and Eastern Europe was that first of all if there had been any original really Marxists and real communists they had been replaced by barats and so there was nobody there that kind of represented if there is anything brilliant in Marxism in Central and Eastern Europe plus also they had information from Radio for Europe and Voice of America and there was a lot of traveling Cuba is an island and whatever one thinks of Castro or did of Fidel Castro he was the original charismatic leader and I think that made a difference the other thing that was interesting I think if there is one single person that helped put an end to communism it was Pope John Paul as a pole and he was able in so many ways and so the thought was that John Paul was going to Havana but the Catholicism is not as embedded in Cuba as it was in Poland and so that wasn't we kept looking for what could change the situation in Cuba what happened was the shoot down of the unarmed planes and all of a sudden there was this I was at the UN at the time trying to figure out how to condemn Cuba for what they had done and actually what was interesting the Czechs were always the most helpful in international aspects of things and I will tell the story if I might what happened was I had instructions to condemn Cuba and what the United States government gave me was a transcript of what the Cuban pilots were saying to each other as they were chasing these unarmed planes over international waters and everything was in English except one word cajonas so what happened was I went out and I spoke to the press and I said it's not cajonas it's cowardice what happened was that the press was appalled that I would use names like that and the latin representatives on the security council said no woman would ever use a term like that and so but president Clinton loved it and so I went down to represent him at the memorial service that was held in the orange bowl for the fallen pilots and I walk in on the arm of the father one of the fallen pilots and 70,000 Cuban Americans stand up and yell kuba libre madam cajonas and I'm sorry I notice that even now in Miami I have a very short remark with all due respect to my great friend I'm not sure about the status of Fidel Castro as charismatic leader but now doing a project in Miami with Czech organization which is about memory and reconciliation and if you read the stories of real Cuban revolutionaries people spent 2016 years in jail because this Fidel Castro's leadership because of his narcissism and eccentricity betrayed them so I don't think that even Cubans now would be still sharing this crazy reality of Fidel Castro maybe there are some international leaders who still believe in this type of spell but it is going on so I think that if Basel Havel were here I remember the scene where in the United Nations I was sitting with Havel and Cuba is very close to us because it's alphabetical order and Fidel Castro was sitting there looking at Havel in a very shy manner and I don't know what was going on in his head in this moment because we then three times in a row fighting for the resolution in Geneva condemning the human rights situation in Cuba the United States lost that year before us and then we Czechs did it with help of my name three times in a row I think we have one more question and then I think we'll have to end with this one thank you, great story imagine being able to take this class very lucky students thank you so much my name is Sofia Skiles I'm an actor but I'm also an elected official I serve on my local Board of Education in New Pulse New York where I live and I'm very curious what they demand of us and how they change us and how we are changed by it I'm so curious firsthand Basel Havel is kind of this mythological mythological artist citizen and I'm curious to know having experienced him firsthand to what degree did he as an artist change the role of being a states person or was he changed by the sort of political role that he was elected to to what degree did he bring his artistry and change that template and vice versa wonderful last question thank you so much and thank you for your service ask me to give you my answer sadly Havel had been repeatedly asked did you have to change yourself being transformed from dissident playwright to president obviously it's a different class different responsibilities if someone who has who wrote power of power is himself in power but how and repeatedly said no it's always me I didn't change myself substantively he was making new experience and some experience by surprise for sure and I think that he proved several times that he was a mortal human being making sins not a god that can arrange everything for others he was saying that today through his performance do it yourself don't blame me for your own mistake and don't make me responsible for what I'm not able to be responsible so he made some political mistakes I would say did he do rights when he resigned to his post of president of Czechoslovakia too soon in the summer of 1992 was it a mistake some of his friends like Polish dissident journalist Adam Lichnik wrote a couple of critical comments on how well in that moment and I get going on and on so how well had his ups and downs he was vulnerable very sensitive human being he was more I would say tortured or tormented by his own mistakes than anyone else he had very complicated private life we all know so his place certainly near or reflect who Havel was so my suggestion to you read the place that he wrote as a president most important one I think is the last one called Lichnik that speaks for what it was for Havel to be a president because I think that one of his political deep belief was that politicians should not only want to get rights to power but they should know how to live and when and how and what is going to be left behind themselves in the legacy in what some others legacies today as a bunch of slogans we can repeat and admire Havel how great he was I think that we would be selling very badly the legacy itself it was Havel himself who was ridiculizing his own statements again and again so I think that Havel is a complex figure and one said that we living in a dark times we have a right for certain illumination and illumination come from the flickering light sometimes of some people can offer us and I think that Havel's life is a small part that still is I would say anything more than that thank you I would love to give you Madam Secretary the final word I was going to mention leaving because I think it's a very interesting play but I do want to I obviously know a very different side of Havel I saw him as a policy maker and I dealt with him as a policy maker and that was not easy frankly so in terms of trying to get the Czech Republic or Czechoslovakia to do something on an issue but I do think there's a personal story I'd love to tell what happened after he came here on his first trip when I helped to arrange it and I wasn't in office and I got called by one of the people that was with him he went to Bermuda and I said to this guy when Havel gets bored he called me so like in 24 hours he called me and he said come down so I go down there and what happened was we spent a lot of time walking on the beach and different things but then also he wanted to go to the NASA tracking station and I was the interpreter for everything and so he asked the people there the military people whether they had ever seen any aliens not trans people this is a crazy president but one of the fun I mean literally but one of the lovely parts was walking on the beach with him and because there is no sea coast to Bohemia he said the Czechs always look to the skies and that they're really they do believe a lot of them in astrology but really that sense of being in a landlocked country and yet having the vision to look to the skies is something that I think describes him in many ways but the humanity of this man who did not take himself seriously he continued to sign letters with a heart and various aspects I mean literally and the thing that makes me angry I have to say even now they call it Czechia which doesn't sound like the right thing and don't recognize the fact that they had a giant as a president who was so well regarded abroad and all of a sudden brought that sense of morality and humility at the same time and they don't respect enough that they had a giant as a president can I make a small picture as I was working on a movie 90 minutes long based on the last few years of how well it's like the movie's title will be How Are We Speaking Can You Hear Me so we'll come with this movie here in the fall and I hope that you will accept the relation that sounds wonderful well wow through and David first presentation before we move to dinner break which I encourage you to the structure of our sessions or we have some full meals like we just had the secretary Albright and investor top of the size portion just hanging out obviously it's meal time hi everybody thank you for your patience with a very jam schedule it's my absolute honor and pleasure to introduce Heather Ruffo who is going to present a small segment just 10-15 minutes from a play that's really new and really in progress the migration play Heather's a long term friend and collaborator of us here at Georgetown and with the lab and I particularly want to note her work with Professor Maya Roth who has been a dramaturg and collaborator for many years as Heather's come to visit and work on new plays so please make Heather welcome for the next 10-15 minutes thank you the migration play I'm really excited to be here because I'm beginning a project and I'll definitely say I have way more questions than answers I've spent the last two decades working on theater that represents my Iraqi side and I had about a hundred relatives in Iraq at the start of the second war and I now have one so this sense of a migration crisis of refugees being scattered across the world is something that's on my mind hugely but also as a theater practitioner I've been watching how narrative the narrative around refugees and migrants is itself a marketplace and so when I put those two things together I said okay this is where I need to put my mind but I'm not sure how so the thing that I've been questioning greatly is I know a lot of us have been talking about empathy this week and I've spent 20 years working on the empathy of the theater I was successful in that job I created empathy on behalf of Iraqis everywhere I went but I'm really questioning so I just offer that I offer that I'm actually questioning the role of empathy in the theater and I think that might be my next crisis and back to what Babak was referencing I really think value is the word I'm after rather than empathy because I could care less if somebody necessarily understands or empathizes with me if they value me or value my family member for whatever reason so this idea of value for a human being turned into somehow a pursuit of value that might also just be purely economic as in why did my cousin who's a surgeon not get placed anywhere but my cousin who's a interior designer get a placement somewhere what's the value on those things what are they gonna bring to those different nations so I started following money trails I started following China on which ports they were buying up I was writing lots of scenes on that but for today I'm just gonna give you I'm gonna try and read for you a bunch of characters so forgive you'll just have to go with it none of them would be represented by me but I think that back to what Madeline Albright said do policymakers have too much of a human side I think this this that's gonna be my next question for a long time and where this play lives and how I follow value and try to experiment with when we use empathy and when we don't airport checkpoint girls net worth $483 and her education soldier I need another form of ID girl that's my passport soldier it's new girl it's a brand new passport give me another form of ID what the name of my father's village a driver's license I walked here from where my father's village how long five hours to go where with what to college with what what college you flying to without bags books show me a ticket my letter of acceptance what are you gonna do there study about books clothes when you arrive my letter of acceptance clearly states all I have to do is get to my home airport once I arrive in country they house me feed me pay my books and clothing allowance I've never heard of a place like this like what you must be worth a lot girls your age walk themselves to Libya to leave by boat how are you going by plane most girls your age have a phone number sewn into their sleeves of the madam they'll call when they arrive in Lampedesa so they can get to work right away I'm not flying to Europe I'm going you know what the work is like over there you must be worth a lot drugs can only be sold once but a girl can be sold 15 times a day or more you sure you want to go this is my future who's your madam I don't have one what jobs have you worked before hairdresser I'm going to study how much money do you have now on you to pay your traffickers how much money do you have I told you all I have to do is get on the plane when I get off they pay my school housing this is all I have knowing he's after a bride she reaches for her money he takes it off you can believe anything you want but when they find girls like you for sale they send them back they're never the same you understand me not even your father will recognize you you're gonna thank me later 483 now go home whatever you were promised it's never gonna happen girl I'll take my chance main stage theater Madrid expected gross $630 artistic director those are our best black actors playwright what do you mean by hour artistic director the country's best Madrid's best you won't find better in Barcelona I train most of them at the institute myself playwright it's not the actor's fault you gave them the old ending of course they're reading it wrong he's a hero a tragic hero but I rewrote the ending I can't produce it that way lives instead of dies that's all why does everybody have to walk away feeling good you can't let people off the hook look I want a character to live to live on he survived so much already why can't he make it here too because it's not believable you're making my point precisely he survived so much already it's a true story okay okay I even believe you he walked from Mali to Libya he pays traffickers to take him to the coast they sell him in the market instead he's a human slave he works a couple years escapes through European traffickers his boat capsizes but he can swim he makes it to Spain gets stuck in detention finally gets out looks for work he gets beaten up by European hatred he dies no he gets beaten up he lives to do what we got to feel bad not even the Libyan slave owners killed him we killed him did we give him justice no we need the whole audience to want him to live but no no no we killed him by ignoring him by driving past him on the side of the road we're scared he's so black I wish I could help he could rob me rate me we have to face ourselves because we're too afraid to face him he has to die what if he doesn't nobody cries there's no play he could live and fall in love he could be an artist an actor he could play himself he could become a valuable member of the community how he could see a small boy hanging from a balcony scale four stories and lift the boy to safety that's a movie he becomes a school teacher for refugees a footballer racist they can't only be valuable as footballers a person a person a cafe owner an engineer a nurse can't you see now why he has to die it's the only story why are you resisting it because it's the only story so write it better it's been written 20 times 100 times every single play on stage in Madrid with an African character dies dies the African always dies not every play every play no every single play think about them shall I list them no shouldn't the audience be forced to consider I want an African man to live okay okay we bring the real guy on stage after the show a talk back he lives in real life but even the Greeks Shakespeare if you want to sell tickets I want to say something that's never been said before by a European on stage in spain if you want to make money he has to die the wall $150 billion annually to maintain then the wall is too expensive it's a waste on every level and it won't keep them out Ted think of it like an olympic ski jump it's beautiful something spectacular then unless it goes across the entire country it's useless it's not useless they always find a way in we want them to know the wall won't control the problem the wall controls the narrative not if it pushes them further into the desert we've got so many guys out on patrol now we can't get goods through anymore we've got to make it harder we've made it impossible how much harder do you need the impossible harder like the muslim band that's been very effective not if we want to still do business $110 billion contract to build and sell us weapons do you know how much the Saudis love the muslim band UAE those muslims love the muslim band Mexico is not Saudi Arabia there are a lot of people I like to call them workers migrants not asylum seekers right but if border agents start talking to people they'll let in every crying mother and turn away the fucked up 17 year old boys we need the boys sneaking in ready to work hiding we're taking the wrecking ball it's something that needs a scalpel I'm not saying we don't want them but we need to make it harder it's harder than it's ever been making them more illegal are they cheaper they're quiet if even a quarter of these people settled and suburbs started having kids the demand on social services it would change the face of the nation irrevocably look you're a brown man and you're talking about the face of this nation the middle class is over isn't it can we afford to pay the work force we need minimum wage can we afford our aging population the American dream isn't being middle class it's striving to be middle class our part of town their part of town our schools their schools creating micro economies so the country will what the border only works long term if it's inside the nation not around it right so why are we wasting money on a lot because it's the greatest obstacle course ever built it is irony they run they swim they go from Central America all the way up through Mexico to be superhuman drought resistant indefatigably smart to not get caught and the gold medal event is the border it's survival of the fittest we get the fucking best and the route weeds out the rest airport checkpoint girl's net worth to be determined girl I walked here guard from where my father's village how long hours to go where with what we're going barefoot to college barefoot my letter of acceptance what are you going to do there study about your shoes when you arrive my letter of acceptance clearly states all I have to do is get to my home airport once I arrive in country they house me feed me pay for my books and closing you know what the work is like over there over where it must be worth a lot don't touch me I'll be direct with you drugs can only be sold once but a girl can be sold 15 times a day or more he touches her obscene she stands frozen artistic director could we try it once where you're crying maybe girl isn't she used to this sort of thing the script is clear she stands her ground artistic director yeah but you still got to be sympathetic okay let's see it again guard I've never heard of a place like this girl like what you know what the work is like over there you must be worth a lot stop touching me I'll be direct with you drugs can only be sold once but a girl could be sold 15 times a day or more sex slave prospect Heights Brooklyn $670 a day you sure you want to go actress salary Off-Broadway Lord B $450 a week like or better a barefoot that's good it helps