 Thank you for joining us. I'm Peter Bergen, Vice President of New America and I'm also on the advisory council of the Foley Foundation, the president of which is Diane Foley, who is here with us today to talk about her new book, American Mother, which she co-wrote with Colin McCann, who's also joining us today, who's a well-known novelist. He will be joining us in a minute. We're going to get started with Diane. And Diane, maybe you could start and tell us why you decided to write this book and why now. Thank you, Peter. It's such an honor to be here today. I've been wanting to write this book ever since Jim was killed, to be honest. Particularly as we started the Foley Foundation and we're trying to raise awareness about the problem of the taking of innocent Americans around the world. So we really, I really wanted just so Americans could understand the threat that is involved. And but I really needed a talented storyteller like Colin McCann to make it happen. And Benjamin Gray, could you, I think you're visible to your cameras visible if you could just jump off because I know Colin will be joining us at some point. And Diane, so for those, by the way, for anybody who wants to buy the book, you can purchase the book by looking at the bottom of the screen and pushing on the purchase button. And for anybody who wants to ask Diane or Colin McCann a question, Slido Box will have the ability to take your questions and then I'll moderate those questions. So, Dan, where do you begin the book and what's the progress of the book as you write it? We particularly realize when Alexander Cody, the British jihadists offered to speak with victims, we thought Colin McCann particularly thought that was a good way to introduce the story. Because Jim was murdered a good nearly 10 years ago, it'll be this August and we realized that for some people, they may have forgotten what happened and how it happened. And we wanted people to help understand that. So, in October of 2021, I had the opportunity to speak with Alexander Cody for two days. And then again during the trial in 2022. So that seemed to be a good way to start the story. And here is my friend Colin McCann. Colin, welcome. I apologize so deeply for all this. So it feels like we're living in a construction site and I think it'll go in just a moment, but I apologize for the noise if it's coming through. No noise coming through. So, Colin, you're a well-known novelist. How did it come about that? I mean, if you and Diane could sort of set the stage a bit for people who haven't read the book yet, how did it come about that you and Diane started writing this book? What are the big themes and stories in the book and what do you hope readers will take away from the book? I think it's one of the most extraordinary human stories that I have come upon in the course of my career. I've done a lot of things in my career, but this particular moment was truly extraordinary for me. To watch Diane as she went in and she sat not four feet from her son's killer when they talked, the things that they talked about to be witness to that. But then also to be witness to Diane's life and the changes that she has brought about in terms of hostages and hostage policy around the world and especially in the United States has been, for me, been an incredible education as a novelist, as a writer, as a citizen of this country. It's been one of the great privileges of my time to spend dwelling in this particular story. And Diane mentioned his last name is Cody. Who is he and what role did he play? So Alexander Cody was one of the British jihadists that became known as the Beatles and he was arrested eventually in Syria and brought back to the United States stripped of his British citizenship. And he became he pleaded guilty to counts of terrorism and conspiracy to murder. And so he was one of the notorious killers who became part of that iconic photograph that people around the world got to see in 2014. I remember myself seeing that photograph and thinking the world was changed in that particular moment. And then to witness the ongoing of history to be part of the story to see Diane engage with him and was, to me, a real lesson in humility and grace and candor and charm. But also the power of a woman who refused to give up. And there was a great deal of perseverance, stamina and courage that it took for Diane to do all the things that she has done to change the whole landscape of this current political situation. To be witness to that was a great thing for me as a writer. How did you come to, how did you come to write this book together? Well, it was interesting because we were total strangers and yet apparently after Jim was murdered someone had sent sent column a story of our son Jim reading one of columns novels let the great world spin. And they'd send it to column shortly after Jim's horrific videos and photos of his murder. And I think it peaked columns curiosity and he tells me he reached out to me but in the horror of that time I never received his message. So it was really three years ago through a friend at Marquette University we met on a zoom call of a book club studying columns novel, a paragon, and it was there that I had the pleasure of meeting column. And the thing was that, you know, I had a chance to chat with Diane then and we talked and she told me that she hadn't had a chance to tell her story. And I knew that her story was incredibly important to the world. And I just went up to be with her and her husband, John, and spent a couple of days up there and began increasingly to know that this story was one that had to be told. And I, you know, originally I was just going to try to be a kind of story whisperer, so that she would do it herself and then increasingly I began to see that both of us together as a team could bring this book, you know, into life and so it's framed in the third person with the meetings with Alexander Cody when we go down to Virginia together, it's book ended by these meetings. But then in the middle, Diane tells her story, and she tells it with such honesty and grace. I think it's really extraordinary. It's a lot about faith. It's a lot about, you know, that desire to change things and not to wallow in the difficulties that have come about, but to force a change when something had to happen. And what's interesting to me is that, well, she is extraordinary, but she's also very ordinary. I mean Diane is a nurse practitioner. You know, she came from New Hampshire. She was living in the suburbs, but she decided to take all the things that she knew and knock on every door and, you know, hit every email button and ask people to change because the policy needed to be changed. What was happening was that nobody was getting out and since Diane, since Jim's death, over a hundred innocent Americans, right, Diane? Right. Which is amazing. You know, Jim challenged me. As an American, I felt very challenged. I knew our country could do better, Peter. And I didn't know how, though, but I knew that together with other good people, we had to do better. So that's how the Foley Foundation started, really. Yeah. And Diane described then, you know, the situation when Jim was taken and also Stephen Sotloff and Kyla Mueller and Peter Kasig and others, other Americans who were also taken by ISIS. What was the situation like in terms of the way the US government dealt with Americans being kidnapped by ISIS? And how has it changed since then? And I mean, I think it's fair to say that you played an instrumental role in that change, you know, along with other families, like Levinson family whose father was, you know, disappeared in Iran and died in captivity. But there have been changes. I mean, 2014 is a decade ago. The situation today, the way the US government handled these things is very different. So perhaps you could explain how the situation was handled a decade ago and how is it handled today, whether it's somebody taken by a terrorist group or somebody taken by a foreign government like Brittany Griner on sort of dubious or slightly trumped up charges. Absolutely. In 2012, our country had absolutely no one who was accountable for any innocent US national who was taken hostage or wrongfully detained abroad. We had absolutely no one who was accountable. It was handled on a very ad hoc basis, depending on how the administration felt about it. The general theme was that particularly if an America was taken by a terrorist, that our country felt strongly that we would not negotiate with terrorists. And that's what President Obama went along with at that moment in time. And that idea of not negotiating with terrorism with terrorists rather was not evidence based. And if anything, the, the research showed that if countries refuse to negotiate, those citizens would in fact be killed. And that's exactly what happened to the British and the Americans, whereas all the European hostages were negotiated out by their countries. And I really feel it took the horrific murder of all those Americans, both Jim, Peter, Kayla, and Stephen as well as Luke Summers, Warren Weinstein, Robert Levinson, all of those Americans were killed while in captivity in that time frame. And this is their legacy that I really feel all of us felt that our country had to do better. We had to find a way to free innocent Americans who were targeted simply for being Americans while at the same time figure out how to deter the horror of international hostage taking. And I mean, the US policy on no negotiations, which essentially means no ransom payments. I mean, it hasn't changed, but what has changed? What is new? Well, what has changed is in 2015 President Obama ordered all of review of particularly the government and non government hostage policy, if you will. And in June of 2015 issued a directive that set up our US hostage enterprise. So now we have an interagency fusion cell to deal with criminal or terrorist kidnappings of State Department office, presidential envoy for hostage affairs, and at the White House we have a hostage response group that deals with whatever strategies the fusion cell and special envoy can come up with to try to use shrewd diplomacy to negotiate the freedom of these American citizens. And if I may, I mean, it also feels Peter that there's a change in the air, you know, and a general change in the national mood and a shift. And that has a lot to do with people deciding that it is it's time to look at things differently. Now, these two, two men who got you were part of the Beatles, they weren't shipped off to Guantanamo. They weren't taken to Abu Ghraib. They were taken to Virginia, where they were put on trial. And the trial, one of Cody pleaded and the other decided to go to trial, but that trial itself cost anywhere from 50 to 70 million dollars. What we did see was the best of American justice occurring. You know, and while things had been probably the worst of some of the engagements for early on for Diane, here we were seeing, you know, the very best of American justice. And it was an extraordinary thing, but it's a grand irony when we think about it to think about 50 to 70 million dollars spent on a trial when that money could have been applied in other ways earlier, and we know what the consequences could have been. Also, just even the idea of negotiating is so important to these times when we have become particularly diseased with certainty. People are not talking to each other, not just in America, but across the world. We're sort of refusing. Everyone says, you know, come into the room if you look like me or come into the room if you sound like me or come into the room if you vote like me. But what Diane was doing and has been doing, and especially a parent when she went to see Cody was she was saying, No, hold on a moment. We need to understand one another. What are the things that we must do is we must take that leap away from the narrow channels of certainty and start to try to understand one another, because if we don't, we are going to be doomed to repeat this over and over. And over and over again. And that's why I'm in awe of what she has managed to do and continues to do. And because the landscape is continuing to change in very, very dark times. Yeah, and Diane just to be clear, and so Cody, who was this member of ISIS who was involved in the murder of your son. You know, there's a phrase in French. To compensate to pop that pops to compensate to pardon a meaning if you understand everything, you can forgive everything, but I don't think that you forgave. Cody, Cody, that was not the intention of your meeting with him. What was the intention? Well, the intention was to have some better understanding. Jim would have wanted to meet him. There's no question in my mind that Jim would have not wanted me to be afraid and would have wanted me to hear him out and hear his perspective. Why did Cody and the others have such hatred for us that they really looked at all the American hostages as the epitome of evil, literally. And, but by the same token, I wanted him to know who Jim was, and that to point out to him that Jim and the others were noncompatents, you know, so I really feel the felt the exchange was very important. And I was very grateful. He expressed a lot of remorse. And it was very sad. It was just very sad. That's what hatred begets. Everybody loses. Everybody suffers. And it was just very sad, Peter. Did you come away with any additional understanding of this guy? Sure. I mean, you know, Alexander's this age of one of our sons. And it was just, I had really prayed for the grace to see him as a person. And I was able to, thanks to God's help and the fact that he was the same age as one of our sons. And he had made a horrific mistake and had zeroed in on this hatred for our crimes as America. America has made mistakes. And as those mistakes, particularly in the wake of 9-11, I feel, that engendered a lot of this hatred that continues in the world. So he wanted to share. So he shared a lot of why he felt and acted as he did. And I don't know how we felt. We have some audience questions coming in. And if you do have a question in the audience, use the slider box. Let me let me start with the first one from Anonymous. Did writing the book help the rest of the family understand your personal journey? Our family has been, everyone's been grieving in their own way. And I think our other sons and our daughter and even my husband, it's taken them a while to understand why I felt the need to do the work through the Foley Foundation. But that's been healing to me. It truly has. Whereas for the rest of the family, they're more private. But yes, at this point in time, they were willing for the book to happen. Early on, they didn't want anything to do with the book. So I had to listen to the family give them these years to come to terms with some of the horror of Jim's murder. Yes, the family is very much at peace with Jim's story and proud of his legacy. Another question from Anonymous, which is what lessons from your experience. Can the families of those taking hostage on October 7th by Hamas learn if there are lessons that are applicable. And also you obviously deal with a lot of hostage families yourself. Right. Well, I feel as Americans who are blessed with a free society that we need to advocate for our loved ones. You know, sometimes our government doesn't get it right or doesn't hear us. And I think that's what is amazing about our government that we need to use our free speech get need to talk to journalists and make our experience public in a sense so that people can come to understand. And that's part of the reason I'm so grateful to call him because he's helped this book to come out at a time when the threat is very much there. Continuing with Hamas taking the Israeli hostages with Russia continuing to target our citizens, China and Iran holding on to our people. This is not going away, Peter. And our nation needs to employ this postage enterprise that we've developed and make it better and look at how we can collectively hold captors accountable and deter the practice internationally. Well, deterrence is a very interesting because obviously to two ISIS members who were involved in the murder of your son were held to account but actually that's pretty rare in my sort of very rare, very rare and that's why I was disappointed that our media here in the United States did not let the public realize how important that trial was. Yes, it was expensive, but the accountability was hugely important. And during the trial, media from the UK and Europe was, you know, spent two weeks with us in Virginia. But to be honest, the US trial was missing. And that's what US media rather. And that's why I'm so grateful for you, Peter, because I think it's important as a nation that we recognize that we're learning as a country that this is an important issue for our country in terms of national security. Yeah, just down the road, there was the Johnny Depp trial. I'm not saying that Johnny Depp trial wasn't important. Of course it was important. And there were important things. But the, you know, the whole idea was that there was something, there was some celebrity going on there. But something deep was happening and the historical was happening in terms of our relationship to justice and bringing these two men to justice and doing so with a great amount of dignity. And watching the prosecutorial team work was quite extraordinary. And it was a big story on the American landscape that, quite frankly, a lot of the newspapers just didn't, they didn't see it. They went there on the first day and the last day. But other countries came in, the journalists from other countries came in and told the story day after day after day. And I think that's important for us to recognize. And we wanted to get that across in the book and the depth of the engagement here. Yeah, Colin, you're a novelist, obviously, that's your main and a book I have always found very interesting was written by a novelist about kidnapping and it's a nonfiction book which is news of a kidnapping by Gabriel Garcia Marquez. And I don't know if you ever have read it, Colin, but you know, because Marquez started life as a journalist and this is really his only big nonfiction book. Well, this is my first nonfiction book to and, you know, you look at somebody like like Marquez and how he is influenced the landscape of how we think it brings up very a lot of very interesting things for me personally about the tension between fiction and nonfiction. What's true and what's not true. You know, we're living in these times where fake news is, you know, it is the phrase on everybody's lips and so what's true and what's not true. You know, what is a fact and what is not a fact, you know, facts become sort of mercenary things that can be used and shipped off to whatever sort of orphanage you want them to go to. But texture is a different thing. And what I found in this in this story, what that was watching Diane, we were talking about the ineffable things we're talking about, you know, love and pride and sacrifice and violence and compassion and all of these things that have no specific facts that can be wrapped around them. And it's almost as if the ineffable became the facts of human experience. And so for me as a novelist watching this I wanted to capture both the truth of what was going on. And also, but I wanted to be people to be there in the pulse of the moment. Now, let's be honest, there were a couple of times Diane had to rain me in. Because I'm a novelist. I make stuff up sometimes. And so we had to, you know, but we worked as a team. And I actually, I'm so grateful for the fact that we did have that discipline with one another. And so I would write something and then would read it and then we'd come back and say, okay, well, you know, this is the ABCDF, but you've forgotten the GH, you know, and it was a fascinating experience. So as a writer, entering into the realm of nonfiction, specifically nonfiction was important to me. Now, the other thing is, it's a book about journalists. And Jim was a great turn. What I liked about Jim was the sort of journalist that I actually started out as a journalist too, but it's sort of journalists I would like to be. You know, he would go to the marketplaces in Damascus, and he would find the old man in the corner playing chess who had had a great story to tell, or he would find the young girl, you know, with a backpack full of books. And he would explore their stories that he wanted the human. And he went to the supposedly anonymous corners of human experience and found the real story there, as well as telling, you know, the general story, because he wasn't bedded, as you know, with the 101st Airborne. And he knew the lives of soldiers, but everybody who talked about Jim said he was really curious, really curious and always got to the heart of the story. So I think that was really important. And then, of course, the Foley Foundation is working now with them, with journalists in extraordinary ways to try and ensure their safety around the world. We have a number of stories coming, a number of questions coming in. One is from Bill Holstein, he said, how did parody become so radicalized? You know, that is a good question. I think Alexander is not unusual. I think when young men are brought up without a parent, his dad died when he was young. And, you know, I don't know if there was so much poverty, but certainly not plenty. And I think, you know, also a foreigner in a different country, I mean, he has, he looked foreign, if you will, I think he struggled to fit in. And to clarify, he grew up in London, right? Yes, he did. He grew up in London. His mom was from Cyprus, I believe. And, you know, so I think it was hard to fit in. And I think when youngsters struggle to fit in or bullied, I think that is when they need guidance in terms of, you know, and are particularly vulnerable to hatred and to ideology that can turn them and make them radicalized, if you will. So I think Cody was like a lot of youngsters who grew up in poverty and want, if you will. And what's ironic is that Jim had really worked with a lot of youth like Alexander. He had worked with felons in Cook County Jail in Chicago, inner city of Phoenix and Holyoke Mass. So it was kind of ironic that this is the kind of youth that the jihadists recruited, if you will. And he suggested to us, Peter, at one stage that, you know, he'd been subject to some abuse. I mean, his father was from Ghana and his mother was brought to, he grew up in the Greek Orthodox Church. And so he went down to the mosque and he found people who were like using this inflamed rhetoric that spoke to him and made him feel at home. And, you know, one of the first trips he made was he made a trip towards Gaza. He never actually got there. But his, you know, his whole ethos was framed around what was happening in the local mosque. And like a lot of young men, he found some sort of meaning there and that meaning was perverted into violence and violent engagement. And I think, you know, he's sitting in prison now. He's there 23 and a half hours of every day in, you know, maximum security, thinking about these things. And, you know, I'm quite sure we met a young man who had been portrayed as a football hooligan, a street tug, all that sort of thing. He wasn't that. He was much more thinking. And, you know, he had a depth that wasn't necessarily talked about by others. That's not to say he was at some sort of shining light. You know, there were times when he was trying to pull the wool over our eyes. When we were sitting there talking with him, he was trying desperately to pull the wool over our eyes. But I mean, as I said before, I think that Diane of all the people I know in the world has this incredible emotional intelligence. She was able to talk to him and get him to talk to us. At the same time, she knew exactly what was going on underneath all of that rhetoric. And that was fascinating too. And, you know, I do think it's important to note that we call the book American Mother. There was a real female energy there that Diane brought that I think is incredibly important. We find that the readers, a lot of readers are women who find Diane's story particularly important. And as you know, March 9th is this new American hostage day, wrongful, detainee day, which with a new hostage flag and that'll be this Saturday. So what is that? What does that all mean to you and to other people that have had to deal with the problems, the situation you've been in? Isn't it amazing, Serendipitous, that this book is coming out the week that finally our country recognized the sacrifice of so many Americans who have died and been targeted simply because they have a U.S. passport. So you're right, this Saturday, March 9th has been named as the day to remember current hostages and wrongful detainees. We at the Foley Foundation count a minimum of 57 public cases. We have many in the gray zone. But March 9th was chosen because it is the day Robert A. Levinson was kidnapped off of Iran and his family has worked tirelessly along with our family and so many others to help our government really understand the threat that this is. And to prioritize the return of innocent U.S. nationals around the world, but many still are detained. Many are still held. And that's why it's such an urgent issue that I appreciate people hearing about. And of course, if you're a journalist or an aid worker, you're not doing journalism and aid worker in a country, let's say like Luxembourg. I mean, by definition, you're going to dangerous places, not all the time. But I mean, you're going to be in Afghanistan, you're going to be in Iraq, you're going to be in Syria, you're going to be in places which are dangerous. And that's just the nature of the business that, however, now when it comes to wrongfully detained Americans who are traveling, let's say to Iran or Russia or China. I think there's now a better effort by the government and perhaps a better understanding by the public that maybe you shouldn't go to St. Petersburg on vacation now if you're an American because you might well get picked up. I mean, that's really changed in Russia in the last, I don't know, I would say decade or so that it's a very different kind of situation and particularly if you're a dual national. Definitely. All of these countries. They don't see you as an American, even if you've got an American passport if you are. You still have an Iranian passport or you still have a Russian passport or something they see you they feel that they can take you. Absolutely. And you're so right. And so in spite of the wonderful people working in the current US hostage enterprise, the negotiation to actually free Americans from nation states like Russia or Iran, China, Syria is very difficult. I mean, this is not easy to do. I have to commend the many people have made many, a lot of many US nationals to come home, but it is tough. So as Americans, we need to become more savvy, more aware and more intentional about where we choose to travel internationally. But you're right, just like as firemen and policemen go into dangerous, their jobs are inherently dangerous. And the same is true of war correspondents, aid workers, they go where there is need, where there's news that would otherwise not reach us. So they provide a vital role in in our democracy in our world, and we need to have their backs. Another question, Dan, you mentioned earlier, you know, obviously the European hostages that were held by Hamas. I mean, they all got out, there were quite a lot of them. The Spanish, the French, etc. All the countries were reported to, you know, to a paid, paid ransoms, they may not have a publicly admit it, but they, they did. So are you advocating? This is a question from the audience. Are you advocating that, you know, the United States should pay ransom or that come or American families be allowed to pay ransom if the government doesn't pay ransom or what are you advocating in that kind of situation? I am advocating that we negotiate that we have to interact with the captors to not interact is to abandon our citizens. And I do think there's a way to use ransom as lore. We are the FBI has used that domestically very successfully for years. It's not easy. It's complicated to use it internationally, but I think it can be a way to actually identify and apprehend captors. So I think we need flexibility. And I think we need to have the backs of the family who want to find some way to free their loved ones. And so our current strictness of our policy to me gets in the way of negotiation. I know several cases that have been prolonged because we didn't have the flexibility to work with families and use ransom as lore as a possible means of negotiation. And what was the number of known cases you mentioned, Diane? Right now it's 56 public cases, but I receive requests for help every day, every week. We're hovering more and more in a gray zone. And I think that's important for people in the audience to understand is that there are plenty of cases that are not public for one reason or another. The family decides they don't want to go public or they being told by the government it would endanger their loved ones. If they go public and sometimes that's reasonable advice and sometimes that's probably not very reasonable advice depending on the situation. But they're, you know, it's hard to tell how many non public cases are, but I, but they're clearly quite a quite a few beyond the 56 that you know of. There's hundreds every year, Peter. They truly are. They're truly are. But that's in contrast to thousands of Americans who may have committed some true crime that gets a just, just sentence, if you will. But we're talking about US nationals who received, you know, who've been arrested, or taking kidnapped, simply because they're Americans. I mean, the process to be declared wrongfully detained at the State Department is a process. It's, you know, it, because as you, I mean, that tens of thousands of Americans get arrested around the world for, you know, because they, I don't know, got drunk in a bar and hit somebody or whatever they did. I mean, and but, you know, the being declared wrongfully detained as Brittany Griner was the basketball player for who was arrested with a tiny amount of medically prescribed marijuana cannabis. That tool, I mean, a, it's not, it's not automatic that that it's a process, but then that does allow the State Department to say, open negotiations for Brittany Griner's case, they wanted a Russian arms deal and then Victor boot back and that was the exchange. I mean, no one, there's always going to be an exchange. I mean, they're going back to this question of negotiation. I mean, if somebody takes somebody else, then I can just wake up one day saying, I'm having a good day. I'm just going to let this person go. Something has got to be exchanged. Some kind of value, whether it's money or in some cases, or a prisoner exchange or something. Well, yes and no, Peter. It's remarkable. We've seen some people let go just because of kind of a better understanding of the captor, you know, so it is there. You know, obviously, exchanges happen. Sometimes that's the only way, but I advocate dialogue, getting to know the captor. Why did they take this person? What can we do to shrewdly figure out a way to help them just see the benefit of letting them go? That isn't always the case, but there are many times when that's happened that way. So it gets down to negotiation and the process for wrongful detention still is very difficult, Peter. It's not easy because captors often want to plant evidence or the alleged crimes they want to. So it's not easy to ascertain the truth, to be honest. It's very difficult. U.S. consular and the special envoy office work on this daily, but it's very hard for families because the process is often opaque. So the Foley Foundation, you know, is working hard with our government to try to make it as fair as possible. Sometimes it seems like if you're more of a celebrity or better known, the process is much quicker than it is if you're an unknown situations like that. So the Foley Foundation works on trying to make it as equitable and as transparent as possible, but we still have a ways to go, Peter. It's not an easy process by any means. But you have, you and the Foley Foundation and other families have changed the policy in a way that before there was really no one to call or if you did call somebody, they didn't really, they would just pass you on to somebody else. I mean, there wasn't somebody who was really responsible for this in the FBI or the State Department. And now there is that. And I think another important detail here is that families get access to classified information that they otherwise would not have received so they can get better sense of what the government knows about that up one in the past, they would have received very little information. I think when Jim was taken, you didn't get much information at all, right? Nothing. Nothing. But we still have a ways to go, Peter. If you talk to some of the families, I mean, it's hard. Change happens slowly. But I'm so grateful for the folks working on the hostage and surprise. I'm grateful for the leadership. President Biden and President Trump, they both prioritize the return of US nationals. And I just pray that it can stay a nonpartisan issue that we have the backs of other US nationals in this situation. I have some more questions coming in. So from Noel Koch, is there any current information on the status of Austin Tyson? Is it an American journalist or a veteran who disappeared in Syria? Well, I'm not really at liberty to say, but I know the family feels he's very much alive. And where we're talking about a relentless captor who, you know, in President Assad, who doesn't even acknowledge that he is holding US nationals when in fact we know he is. We know as a country he is. But he's an example of someone incredibly difficult to figure out how to negotiate with. So I know the family is doing everything they possibly can and we pray that Austin can survive this horrific ordeal. But it's, these are the cases. I mean, Austin's we have Mark, Sweden and China, more than 12 long years held in China. We have many people held for long. We have a person held in the UAE more than 15 years now. Zach Shahid. So it's these are cases that are hugely problematic that our countries is working on and we as a foundation continually advocate for attention for these complicated cases. From anonymous. What's been the response to the book from the people who read it is what's been the most surprising response. Well, it's actually gone very well. So we published it first in France. And it went straight into the best seller list, which was very gratifying. The same happened in Ireland. I have found that it's particularly touched women readers. My sister, she's a good reader, strong reader, but she's read this now four times over. She got a chance to meet Diane in Dublin. She's amazed by the power of the human part of the story, you know, how somebody can continue to have the strength to do this sort of thing. I think also people who are touched by the faith that that is on display. I think it's a very important thing to talk about. I think, you know, I saw Diane's faith in extraordinary ways. Just even in that very first day when we when we met with with with Cody. And there was a sense that and and Diane will speak to this better than I could, but there was a sense that that, you know, the Holy Spirit was coming along and saying, you know, you know, you can be guided in certain ways. For me personally, I often felt I got close to Jim. I got very close to Jim. I never met him, but I had that photograph where, you know, he was reading Let the Great World Spin. And I've become closer and closer to him as time goes along. And sometimes I feel like he's, you know, he's sitting right here on my shoulder having a word with me saying make make sure you look after Dan now. And, you know, make sure that this story gets out into the world because he would be proud of the fact that his mom has told the story and with such courage and also, you know, done it with such dignity as well. So that was been one of the things about how the book has been been received is we're over here we're using a small nonprofit publisher, a trustee. I think that's important and part of the proceeds will go towards the Foley Foundation. And so the more people who can, you know, spread the word about this book, the better off we're all going to be. I've been surprised. Oh, go ahead. No, go ahead. Are you Catholic, Colin? Yeah, I was raised Catholic. Let's put it like that. You know, my father would make the, he would say that I wasn't just a lapsed Catholic, but when I was a teenager, I became a collapsed Catholic. But yeah, no, I actually, I have to say that my faith has has deepened over the course of the time working on this particular story, also watching Diane and the way that she operates. I have a deeply human instinct towards story storytelling and looking at others. But I think there is a strong faith element to this book that that still surprises me to be honest with you. I'm surprised by the interest in Europe. I just, I was overwhelmed by the interest and it just speaks to our need to work together as Western nations to me. They, you know, the folks in France and the UK and Ireland all very and Amsterdam actually very interested in our story and looking to our country to lead the way in some ways and learn from them and others as to how to navigate the complexity of this issue. So I'm really gratified by people's openness of mind and the need to really understand the threat that's out there and the need to build bridges between countries. I mean, if we allow this hatred to continue, we've got to find ways to understand each other or at least be willing to listen to one another. We really do, Peter. And also then the power of the ordinary individual outside the parameters of actual, you know, political power. I think people are touched by that notion that one person can galvanize other people to affect a sort of extraordinary national change. And I think people are buoyed by that, that there's still the power of the individual to influence debate and talk on a national stage. And I really think, you know, Jim aspired to be a man of moral courage, Peter. He did. He aspired to that. And I really think that's the challenge he gives us. You know, he challenges all of us to care about our freedom and be people who dare to try to do good in the world, try to make a difference. Do you think this is a question from Bob Lam sir. Dan, do you feel that the arrest and prosecution of the two ISIS members. Is that a deterrent or what is that. Oh, I definitely think it's a deterrent. I definitely think we must find ways to hold captors accountable. It's, it's, we've got to make it her to take people and use them as political pawns and that's the, that's the challenge we face. We've got to do all we possibly can. It's, it's horrific. They are human rights crimes. You know, it's awful what Jeffrey endured all those years. You know, it's horrific. And you sort of touched on this and a question from anonymous. To what extent is there hope for a greater international collaboration on hostage issues. Obviously, Hamas has kidnapped. Many of them are, I mean, most of them are Israelis, but six of them are Americans for Americans have been released and I imagine there are probably other dual nationals. We know what the definitely were there were Thai citizens who were released relatively early on but do countries to kind of just sort of do it on their own or do countries cooperate or how do you, how do you Well, that's the sadness. I mean Jim was taken with all our allies, if you will, and every single country sought to do it alone and it's all the failures obvious, you know, so I really got to commend the UN and Canada for their declaration against arbitrary detention and we must work on this together because it, we really are stronger together. We've got to find ways to counter this trend because here we thought it when our bringing Americans home report came out in September of 2023 that we were able to report that incidences of terrorists taking hostages had declined. Well, Hamas proved that wrong the month next month. So I mean I'm afraid this is a continuing threat that we've got to recognize and be shrewd about how we got, we're going to deal with it. In the remaining three minutes we have column, any final thoughts, any final thoughts. Well, I just got to say that I'm grateful that people are engaged in this this is our US publication day. And I'm very happy to have been involved in this. And you know, I was actually writing a novel. And the story came along and and it took a year out of my out of my novel and now I'm going to go back to my novel but it's been one of the one of the great moments of my literary life to be engaged in a story like this and I'm really galvanized now by the sense that that something's going to happen over here. Yeah, we could see it in Ireland and yes we could see it in France and in England, but I'm really hopeful that people spread the word over here. Exactly. And thank you Peter for your time and all of your listeners because please spread the word and share the little book it's a it's a quick read beautifully written by column and I just would encourage you to help us share the message so that we can be safe and meet the challenges we are facing. Thank you so much, Peter. Thank you very much, Diane. Thank you for column. Good luck. An appropriate day for us to be talking your US publication day. And by the book they can do with the purchase button on the screen. Thank you for tuning in. Thank you both for talking with us. Thank you.