 the rise above. Yeah, it's a sweet spot. They have been said it's not that they have to put us up until we find other housings. Do what until you find out what is up, which means to a thank you. Yeah, small group of people street bills and everything we have to do. The last three years, nine of them I retired when I turned sixty five, I started working. Thanks. You did. Yeah, I had to do what you got it. I was a graduate. You had to be real. I said, all right, this is my car. Good evening, everybody. Welcome to the Ward five neighborhood planning assembly for May 18th, twenty twenty three. I'm the facilitator. My name is Joe Derry. I live on Ferguson Avenue over that way. Usually we start with a little bit of an introduction of the NPA. Maybe I'll do that back around. You can raise your hand for your calling your names out. My steering committee members that are new and. So, Sam, do you have that ready already? Right, right. So here's our little intro page. This is that NPA Ward five art is something you see on the signs around town. It also has our website in a little bit different location, but that's NPA five dot org. And that's usually the first place that has kind of information posted. I've actually put on there tonight the presentations that we're going to go through in about 20 minutes or so for the two projects. So you can go look at those early or during the later part, you know, if there's a little bit harder to see on your Zoom session. OK, so I'll go to the next quick. So first, let me just review like what our principals are here in this organization. So what we're trying to do is build community here in Ward five by, you know, kind of presenting information, things that are going on and in hearing from everyone about, you know, how they feel about it and, you know, just in general, bring your thoughts, opinions and ideas. And so in order to do that, we're trying to provide a safe space here so that everyone feels welcome. We want to make it accessible, you know, not have too many barriers to participation is the best of our ability. You know, we'd like you to reach out to us. So like if you'd be, you know, people online that can't come in here or otherwise aren't usually able to attend if they need help with childcare or something like that, then, you know, maybe we can accommodate that in the future. We'll be looking into that. And we would like to engage as many community members as possible. That means, you know, the north and south extreme ends of this district, which can be harder to harder to reach, you know, different languages are spoken. So, you know, we'll do our best if we see interest and getting interpreter services and things like that as well, because that's been offered by CEDO in the past to help with help us with that. We like to make sure that we're respecting all the cultural and economic differences in all of our ward members and everywhere else and value all the perspectives that are brought in, brought in here. Again, to be vital, we try to be relevant to things that are happening creative about how we how we do this process and, you know, add some fun. We will have another, you know, summer event hasn't been planned yet, but we try to do that every year as well as, you know, I think eating a delicious meal is fun, too. So that helps. And we don't we don't endorse any political candidates as an organization. Obviously, you do have like candidate reviews and forums for people to speak their mind, but we try to include everybody that's on the ballot when we can. So that's good for this one. Next page, please. So this is a steering committee membership. Actually, most of the people here have changed over since the month before. Some of you were here for the election. Thanks for electing us. So I'll just go and I just put them in alphabetical order. So first is Roger. He's sitting next to me. Even I'm Joe Dairy again. I'm Terry Rivers. Reeds in here somewhere. Greed is actually making food in the back. Perfect. Nice action shot. Sorry, Leigh. And I'm Jason. So again, our website and P. Sorry, I want to see if I've got or the Burlington, Vermont dot gov. Website is just the that dot gov slash NPA five for like minutes and other information that's sort of official public record. Sam Heinrich is here as always. We're very lucky to have him running Zoom and, you know, actually running these slides right now. And we have Charlie from CCTV taking care of our recording. Thanks, Charlie. And this is quick. We've been doing this for years now, but this is even a Zoom webinar. If you are in the participant mode, which is what you start off in, you can use the raise hand function to kind of draw attention to yourself. If you'd like to speak up during a public forum or other some other kind of comment section of our agenda or, you know, toward the end of each presentation, we have time for Q&A. And if you did get switched over to the presenter mode, you can actually control your video and mic. And we just ask that you keep it muted unless you are intending to say something in the meeting. And so I think the next thing was the next page should be the agenda for tonight. So we were going to have three items tonight after the public forum. We actually had to drop one of them because one of the presenters couldn't make it. So it's going to end a little bit earlier than you may have seen on front porch forum or otherwise a couple of days ago. So we do have the project for it's basically two project reviews, one for 179 Queens Park City Park Road, which is Rhino Foods. They've been in here earlier, but this is more of a finalized plan that they they actually need to bring by us. And four fifty four fifty three Pine Street, which is Joville King's project, a Nordic bathhouse that's called Silk Bathhouse. That's again a kind of close to final review of that project plan. So that's what we have for tonight, but first we'll start off with public forum. Oops, I forgot about that page. I'll do this in two seconds. I just want to let you know, because this is like a major impact to people that live in Oak Lodge area. They're going to close the road all day on Sunday until a couple of hours into Monday. So already people are having to detour through that spot around because the Home Avenue site is closed. They're going to reopen Home Avenue for like a day so that you can get back over there. So maybe none of you live over there, but it's kind of a major major rip up going on. So keep that in mind this weekend. So that's quick. And again, so public forum. We might have a few people speaking tonight. We have a lot of people in the room, which is great. Please identify yourself. Just your person, last name. You could say, you know, what street you're on or whatever. Basically, just say if you're awarded by a resident if you like. And if you're speaking on behalf of some kind of organization, just let us let us know that that's the case. Just so we just so we know for the minutes or whatever. And I don't know how I don't know if this will come into play, but we know just to be safe, we ask that you limit your comments to about four minutes. And we'll try to remind you after three minutes. So that's it. Can I ask you a question about the agenda? Sure. We had talked just to go back today. There was some email exchange about extending the public forum longer than usual to give Lenora a chance to sort of talk about her situation with her, her housing and rental and just give us an update on what has come up since the seven days piece. Is that are you figuring that in? I mean, I didn't reach out to the two presenters to tell them that we were going to go later, but, you know, they might forgive us for going out just a little bit late. Martin might be online. He's he's probably OK. All right, so I'll stop talking so that other people can talk. We'll start the forum. You had intended that, you know, we take a few extra minutes as you as you mentioned after, you know, the shorter items have have been brought up if there are any. Yeah. Do we have any hands online or in here? Andy Simon. Business. I just have a my name is Andy Simon. I live on Locust Street. I have a couple of things that I want to talk about for a couple of minutes. One is I'm part of a group called Friends of the Barge Canal, which is a group of volunteers that's working to conserve, protect, restore, remediate the Pine Street Barge Canal, which is just down the street here, a super fun site. We had a big green update event where we remove more trash from the woods at the Barge Canal. We also had enough space around us because we didn't have as much garbage to clean up that we were able to do some art projects down there. We built a labyrinth. We cut buckthorn in the woods to cut back the nonnative species. So I want you to know that we're working really hard down there and we've got an event coming up next week, a week from tonight in this room, in fact, and online. Graham Bradley, who is the regulator for Department of Environmental Conservation for the super fun site down here, is also a hydrogeologist and agreed to do a presentation on the geology and hydrogeology of the Barge Canal. Sam, could you put that up? That was the thing that I wanted to put up. So this is on our website, pinestreetbarge canal dot org, a description of this presentation next Thursday night in this room and online, five thirty in the evening. I think it'll be great. I think it's really a fascinating subject. And it's a it's a site that that has a unique history and and but we don't get to sort of delve underneath it very much. So I think it'll be really interesting. If in particular, if you are going planning to attend online, Graham, can you scroll up a little bit? There's the other way. Thank you. There's a sign up an RSVP form and we're going to send out a Zoom link to everybody who RSVP. So if you want to attend online, you should definitely fill out an RSVP so we can send you a Zoom link. That's Thursday, May 25th, right here and online. Also, we are doing many tours of the barge canal, sort of hour long tours of the barge canal every Saturday, first Saturday or every month, and that starts June 3rd. So June 3rd, nine o'clock, we will be giving a tour of anybody who wants to just walk out on the barge canal and see it. It's amazing, excuse me, it's amazing to me how many people who've lived here sometimes all their lives have never set foot on the barge canal, that they go by it on the bike path, they go by it on Pine Street, but just don't know what it's all about. It's a beautiful wild space with an interesting history. There's another group called Michael Lab that's doing work at the barge canal. I'm going to pass these around. They're doing every twice a month. They're doing a community science event to document different species on the barge canal and documented hundreds of them already of animals, plants, fungi, amphibians, insects. And it's really fun to kind of learn how to identify things and they need in the afternoon, twice a month in their dates that are on this. They're also doing as part of the work that in complement of the work that we're doing, they're doing ecological restoration. So they're working on removing non-native species, but also planning to replant with with native plants. So that is going to be happening a couple of times. This spring and summer, so I'm going to pass those around too. So this is our website, Pine Street Barge Canal, dot org. Shifting to one other thing that relates to the NPA. I just want to say that the Reddington roundabout is not yet official. We voted as an NPA to endorse naming the Shelburne Street roundabout for Tony Reddington, who's a local activist and a fervent supporter of roundabouts. I've brought this to the Transportation, Energy and Utilities Committee a couple of times. The last time I reminded them that just a few days before the City Council renamed the airport for Patrick Leahy and voted to apprise the Federal Aviation Authority of the change. There's been some problems with naming the Reddington roundabout because US 7 is a federal highway. So there's some thought that the Federal Highway Administration might object to this. Well, I think that the, you know, the City Council should rename the roundabout and apprise the Federal Highway Administration of the change. And and I think that as a group, as as citizens, as residents, that what we could do to further this is just start calling it the Reddington roundabout, just when you refer to it, refer to it as the Reddington roundabout. And eventually it's just going to be a fete complet. You know, it's going to be something that's already happened. So that's that's my report on the the progress of the Reddington roundabout. Thank you. Hi, I'd like to give an announcement about an event that's happening at the very end of the month. My name is Tevin Goldberg. I live on Hayward Street and I along with my friend Jesse here, who is my roommate. We run an organization called Democracy Creative, which is located in the Soda Plant building on Pine Street. So we're sort of a design firm for democracy and community meeting space. We actually host an event on Thursday evenings, which is why I've never been to this. We we decided to skip it this tonight. But it's called Thought Club. It's a it's what it sounds like it's a club where we get together and think and talk sort of a philosophy group and some people here attended as well. So that's a bit of an aside. But what I'd like to talk about is this public information session that we're going to be hosting about citizens assemblies. And you may start seeing this poster around because I just put a bunch of them up today. And we're going to pass around some little flyers on this as well. But. Citizens assemblies are kind of a democratic innovation that has been sweeping the world, especially Europe in the last 10 years or so. And they're very much an evolution in some ways of the NPAs, not the least because Terry Bereishis, who is a city councillor here in the 1980s, was from what I understand a kind of driving force on getting the NPAs through has become a citizens assembly expert and an expert on the use of lotteries to select panels of people to solve difficult political problems. And it turns out that they often do a much better job at this than a lot of politicians can because it's people are just representing themselves in their best interests. And if you get a good cross section of a community together through a lottery and you pay them to think really hard about a particular problem, some amazing things can happen. And it's kind of a model for government that creates a different way of engagement in local politics all the way up to national politics. So we decided to have this information session because it's not well known yet. And we're going to do it in City Hall and Contoy's auditorium. We have Terry's going to give a speech as well as a woman named Alex Reneary, who is the co-lead of an organization out West called Healthy Democracy, which has put on some of these citizens assemblies in California and Oregon. And she's going to talk about her experience with that. And it's going to be fun. We're going to have Apple Pie. We're going to have some live music trying to make this not so theoretical. So I really hope you guys can come. It's May 31st, Wednesday evening at 6 p.m. to 8 p.m. And we're going to hand these flyers out. And again, we're called Democracy Creative. So if you want to learn more about us, you can just go to democracycreative.com or come to Thought Club some week, 6 p.m. on Thursdays. Thank you. Oh, yeah, sorry. Yeah, all right. Do you have any other items for a public forum online? We were going to ask, I don't know if we can raise hands or whatever. I don't think you're going to ask something for a public forum, but we want to make sure people could hear online. Hopefully we're OK there. Let's assume that we're OK. OK, so. Oh, thank you. Hey, Susan, quick announcement. Yes, of course. So there's a there's a arts festival happening in the old North end this weekend. A corner of Archibald in South Wienewski Avenue. It's a lot of local artists. It's kind of a lot of up and coming non-commercial type of work. So it's just I think it's 6 p.m. to 1 a.m. But it's there's going to be a lot of stuff going on. And if you're interested in local art that's going on, it's called Plex. You can buy a ticket if you have the means, but there's no one being turned away if you don't. So just want to let everyone know that that's happening. Thank you. Also, my name is Jack. See, I know I live on St. Paul Street. Junkie, shall we set place again? It's it's on the corner of Archibald in South or North Wienewski. Oh, look at that. There's flyers. It's it's at the Junkie and Rats Mission parking lot. So and Tank Recording Studio. And will anything be up before or after this? It's just a one day thing. Sorry, which day? This Saturday. Thank you, South Boys. Great. So you mentioned, Lenora, you might like to speak about some recent events. Yes. I'm Lenora Travis. I did live at five, six, seven St. Paul Street. But right now I'm living over at the Green Mountain Suites on Dorset Street in Williston. Ever since the fire took place at five, six, seven St. Paul two weeks ago today. And it's definitely been difficult instead of me walking down the street to the mini golf store to go to work. Now I take two buses or an Uber, depending on weather. The hardest thing for us was that. Mr. Handy just didn't want to step up or own up to this at all. I mean, he was just he said it in seven days. He wasn't going to pay anything. He felt that this was an act of God. I only think God had something to do with was making sure we all got out safe and alive. That's about it. But so tonight. Well, let me back up just a little bit. Monday, me and two of the other residents at the hotel took some of our bills to the code inspector's office. They made copies and they told us to take them over and drop them off at Mr. Handy's office. So we did. So he had three days to decide whether or not he was going to pay or he was going to let the city fork over all the reimbursements to us. And then the city would have to go after them or they would also put a lien on his property. Well, as an hour ago, I was at work. Patty Wayman of the city code inspectors office called me while she's on vacation, super lady and to tell me that Joe Handy is cutting checks tomorrow. So the city will not have to jump in and pay all of our expenses. And they're leaning on the person that basically should have stood up in the first place. It shouldn't have taken two weeks, but I guess he's a hard person to deal with. But yeah, so we're on that road. And in the meantime, though, it's still hard to find a place to leave to rent. It's really hard. I'm like I'm on my social security. And I work part time at the mini golf up on St. Paul. I'm sorry, Shelburne, but it's it's really difficult to try and pull everything together. I mean, right now I'm still trying to find a place to put my cat. He's still there. So I go over into that smoke. It smells like a damp fireplace. So I go in there every two or three days for food, litter, you know, and take care of him, but I'm looking for a home for him because I just can't. It's so hard to get from the hotel and then go over there. Then I have to wait for somebody to come over with a key to let me in so I can then go upstairs and get into my apartment, take care of my cat. And I have to do that every time. So sometimes somebody isn't there and I just have to wait and call. But it's it's a difficult situation for all of us. I mean, it's it's different. All of our things are there. We had a lot of smoke damage when the firemen took us in by flashlight to get a few things apparently I packed a few things in a bag. And when I got to the hotel, I couldn't believe it. I opened it up and I was like, oh, my God, my father's fireplace. You know, just the wrench of smoke. But, you know, it's it's just trying to find a place to to move to. And I want to stay in Burlington because my son, who came here tonight with me, he lives two blocks, three blocks down from me. And, you know, we're the only family we have is here and my job is up the street. And, you know, my doctors are at UVM and Riverside. And I'm like, I've been here six years and I'm like, I'm comfortable, you know, so because everything is so within reach. So like I said, it's a long road ahead. I mean, I don't know how long we're going to hold out, you know, trying to find a place in this area. If we don't, I'll have to search other where. But it's just what we have to do. When did Andy say you could get back in? Six months plus. But see, I wasn't I'm not going to go back into another handy's property. I just had not had good luck with this house at all. It was like strike three for me. I've been sick from mold in the house. It was built in 1854, I'm sure some of you know. And I was sick for the past two years from mold. None of the doctors knew what was wrong with me until I started doing some testing in my apartment. So I was the first time I used my renter's insurance so I could get tests from Atlanta and other big companies for mold and found out that there were five or five to six different types of mold toxic spores that are in my body and have affected the right side of my lung. So that was my first thing with handy. And then someone came in and stole my e-bike that I only had about a year that my son had financed for me. They cut through the railing, the old wooden post railing. They split right through it to get the chain off and that away they went with it. But thank God I had the battery and the GPS in my apartment. So my insurance paid that off three thousand dollars. They paid that off Wednesday, day before the fire two weeks ago. Then I had to call them on Friday to tell them about the fire. So I'm sure progressive is looking at me like a real basket case. Yeah, it's it's still going to be a long road, because it's hard to find anything around here affordable. They keep building all this affordable housing. I don't know where it is, but it's not what I'm looking at. I appreciate you talking to us about this. Yes, sort of, you know, that highlights kind of the challenges of just if you lose a little, a little bit of housing relative to all of the housing, but it's harder to have an incremental increase in anywhere else like to build any new housing to replace that. So just kind of helps us realize that we can't take the pressure off of that. Right. Right. Yes. I suggest we start a collection for if someone wants to donate it and help her out. Thank you. Great idea. Thank you. Did you want to say something? Basically, this is my son, JD. You can sit in my chair so you have the mic. Do I need to speak in the mic or does my voice carry? Your voice carries. Here. Okay. Here. OK. Is your name and where you live? Well, I'd like to start off by saying I didn't imagine today that I'd be sitting here. My name is JD. Everyone calls me JD, Lenora's son, of course. Well, honestly, I go by non-binary, but that's beside the point. I just have some concerns and things that I really wanted to speak out. I've said to my mom several times over the years, I want to start off by saying that I grew up in North Carolina. Before I ever came to Vermont, I've never been to Vermont before in my life. I don't think any of my family has been to Vermont. I actually did research and went through some studying to figure out where what I want to live in this entire country. And I was looking for a place with low crime rate, a place with a good, healthy environment, decent community. And I actually found Johnson, Vermont, but there's more resources here in Burlington. And that's what brought me here. I mean, honestly, looking for a better life, a better place to live. And I've been amazed by a lot of things, but I've also been disappointed by a lot of things that were handled here. And I think my mom's apartment building, the place she's been living, has been one of the biggest disappointments and not just because of her landlord or the building, but the cracks in the infrastructure with code inspection, housing, authority and a lot of the offices that are supposed to be holding a certain standard of living and a standard for the buildings that people are living in. I mean, my mom has had tests done by several different agencies that test for mold and things, and they all confirmed that there were high levels of mold. There were a lot of things that were obvious to a person, even if they weren't educated on these particular issues, that obviously something's not right here. And I think an inspector had looked at a circuit panel for like the search board things, I forget what they're called, and said that that was majorly outdated and needed to be replaced. And the wiring was actually the cause of the fire. And I've heard that there were two other buildings that caught fire due to poor maintenance. And the thing that completely blows my mind is that there's code enforcement, there's code inspections, there's required inspections for buildings by the city to make sure that things are up to date and that they're supposed to be getting maintained and properly handled. And yet my mom suffered in a building literally sending her to the hospital back and forth over the year. She could be dead now because of the condition that she was dealing with because of where she was living and the city should have been holding the landlord responsible for resolving those problems. And it took a fire to get her out of that building, which has led to her health getting better because she's not being put where all that mold and everything is. And for something something to be done, which honestly, I argue, isn't even enough. And I just needed a voice as I've told my mom, I've ranted to her over the phone several times about this as to why does the city turn a blind eye to these issues? Why are they not holding the landlord responsible who should be fixing these problems and not allowing them to get to this extent, not allowing their tenants to be sick because of the building and its poor condition? In any case, I knew my mom was coming to this and I figured I needed to say this to people who could hopefully pass the word around. I don't expect any answers today, but I hope that this question reverberates and get some things moving and hopefully open some eyes to some problems and how the city is actually handling some things. But yeah, that's why I'm here and that's what I need to say. All right. Well, I'm going to go about the rest of my day. Good night, JD. I hope you all have a good evening. Thank you. All right. Yep. Jason's just one big thing, kind of a sideways note on on everything that you're home. Get yourself home safe. I will let you with your partner, which is I just want to give a little bit of kudos to Seven Days and just note the the importance of committed, vocally owned journalism because they don't like on this. Yes. And that's you don't get that if you don't have really good independent journalism. I just wanted to put in a good word for Seven Days, yes, that kind of thing over and over. And I think you kind of take it for granted and then you if you go to a community that doesn't have good local journalism, all kinds of things happen. That's true. And I I just very proud of Seven Days and the articles that they've done. Yeah, they plan on doing another one. Derek had told me recently on handy's properties. So they're going to do another story. And you know, it's funny because all I ever heard was bad things about this person when I first stepped in the state. I was staying at the Holiday Inn in Williston and I met a woman that would come over there and have dinner. We chatted one night and then there was a few other people after her and it was like, well, if you rent, don't rent from Joe handy. And I was like, what's wrong with this man? Somebody, you know, and come to find out. I've learned a good lesson in too many ways. But yeah, and Seven Days, they are very good. They came to just short story. They came to the closing of my VFW post seven eighty two two weeks ago. I invited them and they came and did interviews and a nice layout in Seven Days with the pictures of some of our veterans and everything. I loved it so much they stayed. I believe they were there with closing because I left before them. So yeah, people that enjoy their work is a good thing. Thank you. All right, well, we intentionally waited till the end to just, you know, give you a little bit more time to speak. Yes, thank you. I think that it was a worthwhile, worthwhile thing. Appreciate it. Yes, an announcement. OK, sure. OK. I'm Carolyn Bates and the work five and I've been a member of Preservation Burlington. I've been a chair on dates. Word five and a member of Preservation Burlington since it started. We really try to have great historic homes and watch them, help them, fund them if we can. We also give really cool tours. You can go down Plain Street and it'll take you two hours to go two blocks. But you'll find out that we hold the Guinness Book of World Records in one of our buildings. I won't tell you what we did. Let me go down North North Street and North Avenue. But anyway, we're going to after three years now, a pandemic going to have an historic house tour and Jason's house will be on it. It's June 10th from noon to four. Twenty dollars. You go to seven days to get tickets. I have a feeling it'll be a sell out, which is about four hundred tickets. April Cornell's house will be on it. Paula Rowdy from Seven Days will be on it. The Follett House, which is now the Palmer Lowe Real Estate will be on it. And they spent, I mean, many months having people repaint the Romans because they didn't match the rugs that they had bought. I understand the painter quit, but that's hearsay. I love the Palmer Lowe's. They were my first clients and they actually gate. I'm a photographer. They gave me a bonus one time and let's see. And then there will be Nick Lawrence, who's this painter from from Greek, Greece, who can paint with both his right hand and his left hand equally. His house is on the tour. And then the person that has probably one of the most fascinating gardens in this town, Fern Crete up on Tharitoga, will be both his house and his garden on tour. So and you'll find you just love it. You'll meet everyone you know already and you'll have a party all along the way. And it's just like it's just like one of the most fun four hours that you can spend in Burlington. So I hope you all come and join us and help us support keeping Burlington historic in some places. Thank you all. Thanks, Carolyn. Right. I think that's the end of the public forum. It went a little bit over, but again, I think it was definitely worth it. I'm going to invite we have the guys in the hallway. Maybe they are listening still and invite them in. We want to talk about the rhino foods items. Oh, sure. Not a problem. They're commercials commercial. So your song. That house. Better house than three is this. I'm not over. We're going to switch. The Renaissance. Don't worry. I'm going to give you a place in there. And I'm going to make you. I'm going to make you. And he caught me. I was like, well, I know. That's why I was like, it is. It's our guest. I'd be along. You know, it's the combo. You're still in there. I know it's the combo. I'm interested in that. Yeah, I'm interested in that. Are you leaving? I don't really. Thanks. There's a bunch of more. Yeah, I'll take a while. Like, if that's what I was going to say. Yeah, yeah. Yes. Let's bring this to a base. About all this stuff. All the arguments for the paper articles. That's my name. Well, I mean. OK. That's my subject. Any more questions? That's OK. I'll take that. He doesn't speak out in crowds or anything that much. I think we're getting settled in here. So I'm calling. They shared with us the presentation. I'm still not logged down to the meeting, and I don't think anybody from this group is online. Can you go to our website and get by that word? Can you just take a look at the comments? Right there is a gentleman sitting over there. I think he worked hard today. He's this man, and I was like seven years old. You see at the Rhino, there's just presentation. What do I do? I'm just going to use the one that was sent to me earlier. Because I don't think you had anybody on Zoom. Usually that's like the. You know, that's so often that we forget that we have to do this. Thank you. All right, well, we have a group I had earlier spoken to Martin, I think, from Marty from Champlain Consulting. So I'll introduce you if you want to introduce yourselves since you have a panel. And then we'll go through your presentation here. I'm Marty Corsell, Champlain Consulting Engineers. My name is Rooney Castle. I'm with Rhino Foods. I'm our president and CEO. And Blaine Paxton also with Rhino Foods. I'm in charge of supply chain planning and the project manager for this effort. Wonderful. Are we live here? Yes, so you can just sort of go ahead and scroll down. We've got a couple of slides. And I think before we dig into the detail here, I just wanted to thank everybody for your time. Excited to be here and really looking to do sort of three things today tonight. First, share, we've got some high-level information to sort of give you as much as we can about what the project is. So we can share that openly with you. We want to make sure we save a lot of time for questions. So we want to hear what people have on their mind and answer any questions that we can. And then lastly, and maybe most importantly, hear what people are, what's on your mind, what you're concerned about, what are things that you want us to be considering because as we continue to move forward on our planning here, we want to make sure we're taking the needs and concerns of you all and the community around us into consideration. Myself, I've lived, or I lived for about seven years in Arthur Court, so just around the corner. And I'm now on SCARF BAB. So I moved a little bit farther away, but still right in the Ward 5 hood there. So I'm really excited to be here. And then if you scroll ahead and scroll to the next slide, just wanted to give people a very quick overview in case you're not aware of who Rhino Foods is and who we are. We're located at 179 Feinstein Park Road. We have been in business for about 35, I can only just hit our 40th year, a year and a half ago. So we're in our 41st year. And our products would be what we call bakery style inclusions to packaged ice cream companies. So a lot of the does and brownies, the mix-ins that go into packaged ice cream companies like a Ben and Jerry's, like a Friendly's, Hog and Doss, I don't need to go into all the detail, but really what I'd want to highlight here is we pride ourselves on being a good community citizen, a good employer, we're a certified B corporation. So we think a lot about how can we not just make cookie dough and make money as a privately held business? We need to do those things in order to stay here and be sustainable in the community. But also how do we do business differently? We have our purpose of impacting the manner as businesses are done. So we think a lot about as an employer of about 200, roughly right now, about 230 employees with 30 to 35% of those being new Americans or refugees, how do we help all of us bring our sort of best selves to work but also recognizing that we all have lives outside of work and what happens out there really impacts how we show up and how we treat people at work impacts how they go back into the community. So a lot of our effort goes towards that. So, and certainly answer more questions about that. The last thing I would just highlight on this slide is that this project is expected to create over 40 new jobs. We believe are decently well-paying jobs for manufacturing with over $20 an hour starting salary or up to $20 an hour for their starting salary. So certainly can answer more questions on that, but I'm not the detailed person. These folks can answer or walk you through. And I would just also highlight, Rhino is a family owned business. So it was started by my folks who both went to UVM, started the Manuski Mill and the Chase Mill. And so as of January 1st, my dad has stepped back. He doesn't like me using the retired word, but he's stepped back from the day-to-day operations and I have been working on about a three-year to four-year transition plan. So I'm now in that position, but really hoping to stay here in the community and continue on to the next generation. So thanks again for your time and looking forward to hearing from you. Wasn't he a hockey player? He was, he played at UVM, yep. But he was a star hockey player. And so you ask, I guess. You ask him, he might tell you that or he might not. Well, that might help these people kind of connect with Rhino to know it's me. Yeah, Ted Castle. So he was here for four years from Rochester, New York originally, but he was, he made the all-American list. So I guess that counts as somebody thought he was a good nut, so. And then when he coached up, but he was an assistant coach for a while as well. Great. As we transition to the next slide, I'll also say I live here in Burlington, just about a half a block from word five. So very familiar with, and I've been here for about 12 years. So we wanted to just spend a little bit of time on timelines so you know where we are. Our first upcoming milestone, our next upcoming milestone is we are planning to submit our zoning application within the next month. And then that along with other factors will lead us to our go-no-go decision on this project sometime in the summer. And if we do decide to go forward with the project, then construction would start approximately in March of next year, 2024. And construction would be finished sometime in the spring or early summer of 2025. And if we go to the next slide, this one's very quick, just wanted to put up the word five map and show you geographically where we are. So we're right across from Burton snowboards on Queen City Park Road. All right, we get into some of the project details. Sure, so the next slide, this is just the kind of existing conditions you'll see on the right of the screen. That is the existing rhino facility down towards the bottom. That's the driveway that comes in. You'll see there's parking in the front yard, also parking on the left or the south side of the building and currently vehicles do travel around the entire building. For those of you familiar with the site, also see kind of on the bottom left of the parking area, there is an existing stormwater feature, stormwater pond. So if you could maybe scroll to the next screen that shows this is the proposed project. So the building in yellow would be the expansion of the existing facility. You can see that the parking that was on the left side or south side of the building has to shift because as an expansion project, we do need to connect these two buildings so that the product can all flow through to the new loading docks, which you can see on the left or south side of the building. So that parking is now on the, see that as the east side below the building there, lower part of the screen. You'll also see that the existing entrance will remain. So that will be the primary entrance where all of the trucks will come into the facility and that will be the in and out for passenger vehicles as well. So the trucks will turn in at that existing drive, go around the facility. You can see the loading docks there on the left side. And then once they have gone to the loading docks, they will exit the site via a new driveway that you can see to the south there on the left side of the screen. That will be all of the trucks will be exiting the site there. You'll see a little better on one of the future slides, but we are also providing new gravel wetlands for stormwater treatment on the left side. So along the south property line and then on the east side between the new parking and the road, those will be two gravel wetlands to deal with the stormwater from this project. And there will also be a bioretention area on the very northeast side of the project and kind of the existing green belt there. And that will help treat some of the stormwater from the existing site as well. Project will be served. There will be new water, new sewer connections, both municipal services for that. There'll be new gas, new electric, new communication lines. Those will all be run to the building. I think what else about the site? That's pretty much the overview of the site. As you can see the loading docks, I mentioned those, are towards the rear of the building. Those are being screened from the road. And so we don't have the full detail here but we do have a landscape architect involved who is working on a landscaping plan. We can see some of the detail of that on the next slides. And there will also be a lighting plan that accompanies that to provide site lighting for the project. So if we could move to the next slide, this one is actually just showing a little bit more detail of what the expansion, what the addition is actually going to consist of. So on the lower left part of the screen, you'll see that is a new freezer. So primarily this is going to be a warehouse facility. So that new freezer, that entire lower portion, that is all warehouse. The center portion of the upper piece of the building as you see it on the screen, that's also storage. To the left, you can see the interior of the docks and the offices that are associated with that. And then to the upper right of the new building, there's some flex spaces that those could be manufacturing spaces in the future. But again, you'll see most of this proposed building is warehousing and storage. If you could go to the next slide for me please. Thank you. So this is a rendering that shows a bird's eye view of the facility. You can see a little bit more detail about that stormwater, the gravel wetland in the front there between the building, the parking and the road. There is a smaller one on that South property line that's the left of the screen. You can see how the loading docks fit in there and where the trucks will be coming out. You'll also see that there is a very large solar array on top of the building. That is certainly something that Rhino would like to have as part of the project. Still kind of working on the design for that. But that certainly is something that we are investigating the feasibility for that. Another thing that you'll see on this slide to the left or the west there, there is a fairly large existing natural buffer. The trees there to the left. With this project, we're not proposing any disturbance to that tree line. Everything will be out in the existing field that you'll see when you drive by the site. So there will be no construction or disturbance out of those trees. And then you can see some of the proposed plantings and both in the parking lot area along that South property line in the Southwest corner. Then on both sides there of the new gravel wetland along the road. And then if you could go to the next slide. That's just a street view of what the building would look like with some of those trees in there. So you're kind of out in the road that's looking across the new South entrance that I had mentioned and the trees that are there on both sides of that gravel wetland and the parking. And you can see one truck in the back left there. That's where those loading docks are. And you can also see just past that truck the representation of kind of the slope that will be in the back in that existing tree line that again, it's going to remain undisturbed. Could you go up to the slide just above that? Thank you. Yeah, so one thing before we open it up for question and answers, I just want to elaborate a little bit on the solar array. So what we intend to do is make this expansion absolutely as energy efficient and low carbon impact as possible. So it starts with the solar array, but there's much more. So we're going to have above code thermal insulation. We're going to have a more efficient than standard refrigeration system. That refrigeration system would have heat recovery associated with it. So it wouldn't be discharging all of the waste heat to the atmosphere would be diverting some of that waste heat to heat process water and reduce natural gas consumption. So pretty much everything that we can, every lever we can pull to make this as energy efficient as possible, we're going to try to pull. So I think we can go to Shunae. I have a question about pardoning. When you talk to the individual, I think it's fine. Is there anybody right now who's new generation? I believe that the number we're actually increasing by six faces. Yeah, I'm not sure how this... Oh, sorry. Yeah, I'll take, there's a question from Susan online. You can unmute, I think. I'm a neighbor. I live in Red Rock. I'm hearing an echo. It's in my turn, I just want to make sure, because I'm hearing two people. Can we mute in our room just while we're giving you real... Yeah. Okay, so I'm a neighbor. I live in Red Rock condominiums just on that other side west of the tree buffer. And so as a neighbor, I'm more concerned about how the expansion impacts the quality of life for us in terms of noise in particular and even lights as the trucks turn around the back, they'll flash, their lights are away. But the noise, like right now, we hear the high pitch sound as the coolant is getting loaded into that tower. And so with the edge case of the two production lines, if they ever go into effect, how would noise be increased in terms of coolant? And also are the trucks, as they're at the base, do they need to have their compressors on and be cold and refrigerated? Because you work a lot with cold products and trucks are really noisy when the compressors are going. So when they're in the base, are the trucks going to be riding constantly? Usually reefer units, they call it. Yeah, we're muted. Okay, yep. Yeah, usually trucks in the industry, they call them reefer units, refrigeration units. And they do have motors that run as needed to keep the product on the trucks cold. If there is product on them, of course, you turn them off if they're just sitting empty. So it's a mix. So do you plan on doing any impact studies for noise and lights and? So I do wanna, I'm sorry, I'm gonna interrupt if you were finished, and to address that concern. So the site as it is now, when you drive by it generally looks like it's a flat site. There actually is quite a bit of slope across it. And one of the design considerations for this project is that we need to keep the finished floor of the new building at the same elevation as the finished floor of the existing building again, so that the product can move between the two. So that actually results in about a 10 to 12 foot cut in the back corner that would be closest to the Red Rock condominiums. So those trucks, especially the lights, but also the sound, those are gonna be down. The lights in particular will be more shining into that bank and the access that the trucks will have coming across the rear of the property is virtually flat. So it's not like they're climbing a hill where their lights will be pointing up, they'll be coming across flat and they'll be really pointed at that 12 foot slope that's going to be in that corner. That slope will also serve to absorb and deaden some of the sound from the trucks as well. So the high pitch sound that we hear now that's not related to trucks, it's related to I think a coolant material with the two additional production lines will you be expanding and have a greater need for more of that product that creates noise? It depends. We have other initiatives underway to try to reduce in terms of overall environmental impact, we would like to reduce the amount of coolant that we use. So it's hard to say but we do have those initiatives going that regardless of exactly what happens with those two potential production lines, we hope to reduce our use of coolant. Yeah, and I would add to those two new production lines that the first sort of order of use would be not actually more, but like not adding more production out of them, it would be helping us keep more segregation. So as you can see, rather than have, currently we have two very large production rooms. Those other ones are sort of more modular. And so what we would be able to do there is move some of the existing lines in those larger ones, right now they're sort of side by side into those existing, into the new ones, which would allow for easier access around like allergen control and different things like that. So we don't actually have any plans within our sort of three to five year plan that looks like we'd actually have to be adding new equipment. Again, anything can happen, but the current plan is to really have that help us with the segregation, less about needing more pumped out of there. And again, as Blaine alluded to, our hope is especially with new, there's a lot newer technology. So new equipment going in there is actually much more efficient. Therefore it uses less of that liquid nitrogen and what you're hearing is liquid nitrogen trucks feeding the silos. So again, our hope isn't continued to be more efficient with that and have that fill up happening less. And I just want to make it clear because I didn't really mention that when I was going through the site plan. The location of those tanks is not changing. We're not adding new ones next to this new building. Those are going to stay where they are. So it doesn't necessarily change what you're hearing now, but we're not moving anything closer or with the new building to make sure that was clear. Just for me to understand the process though, in order for your plan to be approved, wouldn't you need to know in advance the maximum decibels that would happen on site during production in order for the plan to be approved and then executed? That you're not building something that is out of range of sound ordinances. That was not something that we, so we did have a sketch plan, DRB and DAB meeting and the city has not asked for us to provide that information. We did provide them with what the project is. So they are aware that there will be refrigerated trucks and they have not asked us to provide sound study for that. We will be providing a lighting plan. That is a requirement. And that is something that's being prepared currently, but we've not been asked to do a sound study by the city. So you could potentially build something and have the trucks all come and have the coolant make noise that's over the decibels that's allowed. Well, there's nothing that we're doing. So we already have trucks today, the same kinds of trucks. So there's no difference in the activity. It's the same activities that are there. No, there's 10 bays. There's an increase in bays. Right, I'm just, yeah, I'm not arguing. I'm just pointing out that we do have refrigerator trucks today going in and out of the site throughout the day. And so that that type of noise is present today. Right, I don't want to monopolize the whole thing, but I have one last question. The building is super tall. I'm surprised about that. Why is it so tall? What's happening that's so tall inside? Maximizing storage. So it says, as we alluded to, the vast majority of that space is warehousing space and storage, both frozen. And so it's racking. So it's maximizing sort of the footprint in terms of how many pallets we can stack in there. Okay, thank you. Thank you for your question. No, thank you. You're welcome. Will your trucks be running overnight or all night or just during the day? They can, they can, but that's no different than today because we have trucks going all out. We operate, you know, more or less 24-7. Yeah, and there's currently two days on the south side at the moment and those do operate 24 hours a day. And so there would be trucks that would be running throughout the evening. I wasn't aware of what you do. I can say is that I've always liked Rhino and I felt that you have always been anything better than a lot of the other companies by including a lot of our, what is it, 30% you say of the new American population and mentioned brother? Correct. He used to work for me. I'm a photographer. All I could say is that was simply marvelous to work with. He would let me in on some of the things that Rhino Food sponsored. And I was very excited for what you all did outside of just the business. So if you don't make more noise, it's fine with me to have you do your thing. Thanks. Couple of questions, he's sort of related to what others have been mentioning. I'm curious about increased truck traffic and the air pollution implications and if there's an assessment related to that. I know there's green space around there. So that's where people go to breathe pressure. Curious about impacts for truck traffic. I appreciate the solar and what happens. I'm also curious about if there's possibility to not run more gas lines to a new facility. You know, I'm working out for a house and I know that you're refrigerating with much more efficient. I'm wondering about assessments to not continue to do fossil fuels. And then my last question is, do you have an ID for your proposal to go to the Geelong Movie Board? Is there a next meeting? It goes simple questions if you want to be involved. Can speak to the truck traffic. So one of the first things we did when we started this, this was many months ago, is we did have a traffic assessment performed and the results of that traffic assessment were that we were well below the need to do a traffic study. And so at least that's one indication of the level of traffic. The other thing I'll say about that, that's interesting is right now, one of the benefits for us of doing this is that right now everything that goes to and from our plant has to go to another, one of two offsite distribution centers. So we're transporting goods twice. We're touching them twice by with this expansion so we can either receive product directly without that extra transportation leg from raw material suppliers and deliver directly to our customers without that extra transportation leg. So there will be thousands, if not tens of thousands of truck miles taken off the road overall. Now, those in, you know, over a wide area doesn't exactly address your question about air pollution, but in terms of overall carbon footprint, that's a significant source of reduced carbon emissions is not having that extra transportation leg for everything right now that goes in and out of the plant. And then the DRB, you want me to just keep going? Yeah, thanks for all. So we don't know when those hearings will be because we don't get my understanding is we don't get those assigned until we actually submit the application. Is that correct? Because an agenda may be false. So we're not sure when, what meeting we will be on. Right. But that will be publicly warned and everybody will have the opportunity to be at that meeting as well. And there's one more, Mr. Blubriff, to fossil fuels, the gas line. Oh, gas line. This wouldn't have new gas service, right? It's not new because there's nothing that uses natural gas on this site, right? Oh, I might have said that when I was going through the list of utilities, I may have said that. Maybe it should have just been electric. We'll double check. There's nothing that uses natural gas on that side. In fact, as I mentioned before, we're going to be using waste heat from the refrigeration system to actually reduce natural gas use at the plant, on the plant side of the site. Right. Jason, yep. I was also going to ask about gas usage. So great to hear that this expansion is pure electric. That's awesome. And big picture before I dive into a couple of specifics, I just want to say personally, I'm delighted to see a local family-owned company that provides a lot of good pay and jobs to local folks expanding in Burlington rather than moving somewhere else. So that's my biggest picture comment is a big hurrah for expansion of Tormy Farm Business here in Burlington. Couple of specifics. The paved area size in particular around the loading docks is quite large. I'm curious if you have sort of optimized that size to be the minimum needed for trucks to be able to maneuver. Given water quality concerns, even with the stormwater management that you're doing, any square footage of pavement that you can get rid of is a net plus for the lake. And I assume also a cost savings for the projects. So if you haven't already, I would ask that you look for ways to really dial that down to the minimum necessary for your trucks. Second, I took a quick look at the driveway openings, the existing one, and then the planned one, which appears to be about the same size as the existing. And I measured them on Google Maps. It appears that they're roughly 30 feet wide at the narrowest point. And then when it flares out onto the street, the full width of the opening is 60 feet. Queen City Park is a street that's used pretty frequently by people biking. And that exposure is a danger point. I looked at the Burton Driveways right across the street and they are at their narrowest point, 18 feet wide and flare out to 35. So considerably narrower. I'm not an expert in what's needed for the trucks that come to your site, but given in particular that you described a one-way loop around the building, it's not a two-way where the trucks are entering. I would ask that you look for opportunities to narrow those openings and also to tighten up to whatever extent is feasible for your trucks, the turning radii, so that there's less exposure for bicyclists who are biking across the mountains in those openings. And with regard to trucks idling on site, I remember reading years ago about an initiative at, I don't know where it was, but some truck stops is some truck stop chain that was providing power hookups for trucks at the site. So when they were on site, they could shut down their engines and use essentially shore power to power their refrigeration units. I would love it if you all could, if you haven't already, explore something like that so that when trucks are on site, they're really only using their engines to move. And once they dock, they can use your power and Burlington's 100% renewable electricity to power their reefer units until they disconnect and peel off again, which I imagine would be a significant fuel savings for the trucks as well. And then the last thing, I also was struck by how enormous that front wall is and wondered if it might be an opportunity for a public mural of some sort that could be done in collaboration with Burlington City Arts, where I have no doubt that you could find partners who would be willing to paint that. The key thing would be designing into the project a substrate that's appropriate for that. And that would be, I think, a vast improvement on the appearance of the front of the building and a real contribution of Rhino to the streetscape. So obviously now's the time to do something like that. And I would hope that a material that's appropriate for a mural would be equivalent cost or hopefully not significantly more expensive than what you might have used anyway. That's good. I can help you generate your notes. I'm sorry to do it, great. Thanks for the comment, Jason. I can address some of those if you'd like. So the first one about the kind of width of the pavement past the loading dock. So there is actually a computer program called AutoTurn that does show how the trucks move. So the reason it looks like it's so large is because of the loading docks being side by side. So the trucks can actually start to turn until they're quite a ways out. So it's not like when you're pulling out of a parking space and you kind of start backing out and you're on your way out, the trucks have to go straight for quite a ways before they can start to make their turning movements. So we have looked at that kind of the minimum pavement width there. That was one of the key design factors was actually what the minimum needed was from the face of the loading dock to that edge of pavement to make sure that say a truck in between two other trucks would get in and out. So backing into a long slot. Correct. So when you just look at it, I think if we had put more trucks maybe on the site plan, you can see it a little bit better. When we just show one truck, it's like, oh, that guy can just get out of there. Problem, it's really when there's, like you're at the backing into or pulling out of a long slot does require more. So thank you for that, because we certainly have, I've been trying to minimize that as much as possible because it makes the store monitor sign easier if you have less pavement. So I do appreciate that comment. With the driveway access widths, same thing. The really the width and the radii are driven by it being primarily large trucks. And again, that turning radius needed. So when we can look at that, we can look at that. We'll certainly look at that to make sure that's been fine too. Once again, the less pavement we have and the less. Well, one thing to note there is that the current design of Queen City Park Road is not two standard lanes. As you know, it's a shared lane in the middle is that you set up the program to use that full space and not just turn into half of the street. Yeah, that's a good thing to look at. Yeah, I'm actually. Because I'm not, if it's doing the usual thing and assuming that you have to turn just into one lane, that would increase the size of the opening. But if you use your full street, as is allowed on that design, you may be able to tighten it up. Yeah, you're exactly correct. Normally you're trying to keep from turning into the opposite lane as people are not looking for it. So that's a great point. We'll certainly look at that. And then I'll let these folks talk a little bit more about the truck cycling on site. I did just want to mention as far as painting the mural goes, we'll certainly look into it. I have had some conversations with Nick from Food Tech. Consultant on this, who's more specific to the building. And I kind of asked him that question about what could happen. There's very specific requirements for the material and the colors of that wall because it's an insulated metal panel in its refrigerated space on the inside of that. So the manufacturers of that can't guarantee the insulative properties if there's certain colors that are painted on the wall. I'm not going to take that answer. I think I'd like to look at it. So there's something on the outside. I love that idea. That's what I just wanted to let you know that I think it's a great idea as well. Yeah, there may be ways, but that's the best idea so far in this meeting. Yes, I like it a lot. So they may do an hour. The finals keep up with the flexor-free library and see the one that is sprysted and wrapped in a brace. It's like this big. I'll certainly pick one. On the east side on the tower way up by the northeast corner. They made it a generator and they printed it on the material, a generator. So that's a place maybe to talk to. And then I think your last comment, certainly something that we'll get into. All these are great. That's a great idea. So thank you. Let's start a respect for our next presenter. I think we'll probably maybe take one more question if there is one and then we'll move on. But we might have exhausted them already. Thanks a lot for coming in. Yeah, thank you. Again, it's been very concerning. I appreciate it. Thank you. Excuse me, don't cook it up. It didn't really want that all fried because that was loud. I was like, that's bad taste, I don't know. Good taste, but I didn't know if that was like a loud. Come by any time, know where we are. Don't stress the cookie dough out. Nothing other than this, right? Made it all my life. I can't see entirely who's online, but I don't know if our next presenter is in the room right now. Thank you, everybody. I got a list. I got a lot of chat conversations. Is so you'll end next time? That's what makes it so good. Thanks for coming in. She's not online. What are we going to do? Great. I'm going to be a second to sit down. So Sam already found your presentation. So I think it should be online. It's going to be going nonstop now. He's doing the next slides. Excuse me. You will screen on that. Great. You want to just introduce yourself. I don't think I did a proper job of that. I'm Jobe Elting, and I'm the founder and CEO of Silt Botanica and also Urban Moonshine. And I'm a resident, a long-time resident of the North End. And I'm very happy to be here. And this is Kelly, our fantastic architect. And Dan, our environmental engineer. So they're both very knowledgeable and have lots to offer during this presentation. Next slide. Who's my slide person? OK, great. Speak up. OK. So I am here representing the team behind 453 Pine Enterprises. And we are here because of our it's a major impact review as required before we go to DRB for our zoning permits, which we're planning to do early next week. Yes, very exciting. So this site is going to have both Silt, which is a Nordic-inspired bathhouse, and a small commercial building. Next slide. So really, this bathhouse is going to be a community hub for connection, relaxation, and wellness, and a destination for tourists looking to enjoy Burlington. Next slide. It is a 25,000 square foot indoor space with one acre of exterior thermal facilities and extensive gardens. And the capacity is about 150 people. Next slide. Next slide. I thought I'd have my own controls for the slide. Sorry. So the idea behind a Nordic-style bathhouse, which there's many in Quebec especially, is this idea of a circuit. And it's a hot, cold, relaxed, hot, cold, relaxed circuit. And so what we're going to be offering in this facility is for the hot part of the facility is a large community sauna that fits over 30 people, three small saunas that will be at different temperatures, a steam room, a hammam room and space, a large, warm pool that's a swim-in, swim-out, and then three additional pools, hot pools on site. And then for the cold elements, there'll be a cold plunge and also a cold plunge waterfall. And for the relaxation area, there'll be a large greenhouse lounge and social space. There'll be a salt room, relaxation area, a napping room, which really is a thing. And all these facilities sounds fabulous. And two geodesic domes and also a swing room. Next slide. So this is also a botanically inspired space. And the facility will really show that and exhibit that through an immense amount of beautiful botanical gardens. We're also going to have a kitchen, veggie and herb garden. We'll have a tea pavilion where you can sit and drink tea and relax after you've done the circuit and you'll get other beverage services there. And there'll also be elements of aroma therapy as a way to experience the botanical element. There's going to be a massage and wellness treatment area on the second floor. You'll also be able to get herbal foot soaks and do salt scrubs. And there's going to be a retail, small retail space and then a plant-based cafe that will be community facing. So you can easily go there and enjoy a meal even if you're not using the facilities. Next slide. So we're on track right now to hopefully break ground this winter. And that would put us, if all goes as planned, as a spring opening in 2025. So just about two years from now. Next slide. So the other piece that we have previously announced that we're really excited about is that this property, so this map, which I've shown before when I've come, shows all the parcels surrounding the barge canal. So what we're developing is 453 pine. So you see the little sign on the right. So it's that main open space where right now where all the green-up day trash is piled up and those cute little people that folks built in the community if you're driving by right now. So that's really where the bathhouse is being developed and this commercial building is being developed. In the acquisition of this property, we're also buying 501 and then all these zero pine, zero pine, zero pine lots surrounding the barge canal. So we're partnering with the city and we're drafting up on LOI, a letter of intent right now with them, so that when we purchase this property, we'll be gifting all those other sections to the city in order to create this 21 acre proposed conservation area. So this will finally be permanent access for the public. Right now it's landlocked by private land. So we're excited to work with the Friends of the Barge Canal and the other folks that are really passionate about this area, about those plans. So that will happen once we're through permitting, once the cap has been approved, then we purchase the land and then we'll be able to gift that land before we start our actual construction. Next slide. And here's the site plan. And so you'll see the bathhouse is on the left. There is some employee parking on the left-hand side, kind of a back entrance. There is the commercial building on the right next to the mall text drive. And so those are the two built structures and then you'll see in the back left. So first time we've showed this actual image, so we're excited to share it with you guys tonight of the facilities, the thermal facilities in the back. You can see the pools. You can see all the wetland buffer zone, plantings and the greenhouse. It's a little hard to see what we can go back and make it bigger if you guys wanna ask specific questions. But I'm gonna hand it off to Kelly to get into more details. Do you wanna talk about this later next? Sure, yeah, I'll start with this one. So with the Champlain Parkway work, the current mall text driveway will get aligned with Howard, so it kind of creates more of an aligned intersection there. And that really is gonna be the primary entrance to the parking and the facility by vehicle. To the south, which is plan left, that parking area is really only for staff and service since kind of our mechanical space, pump room maintenance area is to that side of the building. Right in between the two buildings, we do have a landscape architect that we're working with and we're working on designing a small pedestrian plaza between the two to really activate that space and make it welcoming and inviting as well. With the Champlain Parkway work, there's also gonna be that shared use path that will be right along Pine Street, which will also provide great connection for pedestrians and bicyclists to access the site as well. There's on the commercial building on the right, there is also a bus stop that will be there. So we're really looking at multimodes of transportation to this and not only relying on a car. I think that's probably good for this. And the commercial space has three, it will be three different retail spaces that will be rental spaces. So next slide, yeah. So these are a couple of Brady views from the street looking at the building. We're really trying to hero the landscape with this project and the actual building itself is meant to be kind of very simple forms and the entrance to the actual facility, we are building an earthen berm up to the building. So you kind of have this sense of arrival through the berm as you enter the building. And the intent with that is really to kind of leave behind the chaos of life and kind of have this sense of calm and mystery as you enter the building and it's kind of not a more atypical approach. Next slide. And then this is the one-story commercial building that will have those three tenant spaces. Both buildings will have complimentary materials to each other. And this one will have quite a bit more storefront since it's more out-facing. The bathhouse building, more of the glazing and openings are to the west at the rear of the property since we have so many. The uses of the building really are locker rooms, massage rooms, there's not a lot of opportunity for large open windows towards Pine Street. Next slide. So here are, these are the kind of flat on elevations. In the center two elevations, you can see there where we show a lot of glass and the glass roof, that's the greenhouse space that Joville was referring to. And next slide. And these are the elevations for that commercial building. And at the bottom there, we show kinds of streetscape elevation of both those buildings and to the right, those gray boxes are the mall text building. What we're trying to do with some of the landscape is from five of one pine, since it's kind of more heavily wooded and natural area, we're kind of taking that woodland theme and kind of pulling it, extending it a bit towards silt bathhouse. And then as it kind of moves more towards the pedestrian and urban side of the site, it'll become a little bit more organized. But again, with the spirit of the bathhouse, lots of plantings and we're trying to what is actually in the bathhouse facility will also be displayed on the exterior with the amount of plantings that we're gonna have the extensive plantings. Next slide. And then we'll hand it over to Dan. Dan's here from Stone Environmental. So he'll talk through some of the site. Right, enough of the pretty pictures now. So this site is a brownfield site that I believe everybody knows and it is adjacent to the Pine Street Canal Superfund site. We have been over the past several months finalizing what is called the Evaluation and Corrective Action Alternatives for the 453 Pine site. In that effort, we are using the available data that's been collected over the past 20 years on the site and some more recently acquired data to develop the best course of action putting the site back together again and make for a cost effective and effective for remedy sake and exposure sake the site to support the redevelopment plan. So we are faced with a number of areas of concern and impacted media at the site. There is soil contamination, both at the surface and at depth at the site. The contaminants that made for the Superfund site extend on the 453 Pine in two areas and being mindful that we cannot disturb that contamination. There is groundwater contamination as well. And there's what we call soil gas contamination which is actually interstitial gas within a soil that's above groundwater. So that that gas has some contamination that we have to protect against when we go ahead and design the buildings. Obviously we have to manage stormwater. We have to manage the impervious surfaces that are out there in the water that falls on them and doing so in a manner that does not jeopardize the efforts that have been done on the Superfund site. The site is a tricky site in a lot of ways and some of it is just from natural conditions. So we've had these like manmade problems with the site vis-a-vis the Superfund site, but there's also just the fact that it's in Burlington with lots of clay. And so the foundation types are tricky. So that is something that we are evaluating as we go forward into the evaluation of active-action alternatives and how to design that foundation types and the parking structures and whatnot. So we basically don't squish the problems that are associated with the Superfund site and cause a problem with the lake. So we are currently underway with that ICA as we refer to it. We're hoping to get that out by the end of next month. And then the next stage will be to move towards corrective action planning. So actually the side on through the evaluation process the preferred approaches for dealing with all these problems and that will be in the form of this corrective action plan. So that would include details, the specifications, the selected foundation types, the selected stormwater designs. Those will all be kind of considered in the context of a groundwater model. So we can predict whether or not using this model, predict whether or not there might be an impact on the remedy before we get to that point. So kind of covering all the basis and making sure we do not have a problem in the future. So we will be presenting the cost and schedule for meeting the work within the corrective action plan. We've made it the next slide, I believe has a kind of a first take best case scenario of that schedule, but it will be further along in the corrective action plan. Let's see, the corrective action plan mandates the process includes a 30 day public comment period, which is dictated by the statute that governs the preparation of the plan. And we're expecting to submit the cap to the Vermont DEC for their review, their initial review in late August. So that would roughly place the public comment period sometime in October. And again, this is best case scenario. And then the final corrective action plan after incorporating any public comments or Vermont DEC comments sometime in November. I think there's the next slide kind of lays out the schedule if that was everyone, okay. So this kind of just kind of takes care of a little bit of the dates so people can have it in front of them. And this gets us through the final corrective action plan. So hopefully sometime in November, we will have that corrective action plan finalized. It's me. Next slide. Okay. Yes. I have a question. What do you do? Probably 10? Yeah. Well, largely two questions. I mean, more than that maybe, but back on the, back, yeah, get the timer. Back on the site plan that you showed, it looks like, so now the, what used to be the bowling alley is now parking lot. Is that mostly true? No, the parking, the parking lot has shrunk since the bowling alley because we got rid of a lot of square footage. And so we moved the back house more central on the site. So we kind of pulled, because it was a bit more in the buffer zone and we kind of pulled it into the middle of the site. So it's a smaller impact than the original plan with the bowling alley, with less parking. So the grove of ash trees that's to the north of where the bath house is going to be now, will all be cut down and re-landscaped or your plan is to cut them all down? Yeah, I don't, I mean, Dan could speak to that, but in terms of remediating that site and putting parking lot in there and driveway, et cetera. I think that that's pretty necessary. There's the northwest corner of the site is within the buffer and that will largely be untouched, but the central east side of the site will be stripped of trees. But those are ash trees. There's a mix. Mostly green ash. The green ash are the ones that are gonna are getting sick. Not yet, but they predict that they will be. So what I've been trying to determine in terms of the public comment period, the way public comment has worked in the past on some of these other projects, there's a corrective action plan like the food court, the drive-up food court plan that Kurt Schuller is putting forth on the Superfund site. When there's a comment period, DEC has already reviewed it and essentially approved it. So the public comment period doesn't, the public comment in that 30-day period that you're proposing for October doesn't really have much impact. I mean, there are, there is the possibility for public comment, but DEC presumably has already reviewed it and approved it, is that correct? So the initial review by DEC definitely includes like a yes, I agree with your general approach, but most of that review is to approve this administratively complete by the definition of the I rule. Yeah, I rule. So the public comment period, we are programming in a 30-day public comment period. The way that the I rule has written it is that it's at least 30 days. And that there are, if there were a contentious site, they do leave that option for expanding that period. This site, because we are adjacent to the members of the performing defendants from the Superfund, we expect that there will be a lot of dialogue with that group related to this plan and how it might affect their site. So that's to be included in our timing as well. We are open to conversations before the public comment period, we welcome that. So if you would like to discuss what's being proposed, when it comes to corrective action, we're happy to talk with you. And having read through 30 years of plans and reports, the various projects that have been proposed for 453-501, I know that those plans are sometimes highly technical and sometimes 400 pages long. I'm not sure how detailed and how long your reports are gonna be, but as a layperson, it takes a long time to sort of make my way, our way through those plans. I guess what I've been trying to get in sort of pestering Jovial and Samantha Dunn and other people about this is when we could actually have draft plans that we could start looking through to be able to ask questions and not just have it at the other end of the process where it's really impossible to sort of go through all that information, not because we're trying to torpedo the plan or anything like that, but that there's some legitimate questions that could come up. And we'd like to be able to be able to ask those questions in an informed way and not just sort of bombarding you with a million uninformed questions. Yeah, no, it's a great point. It is a parallel track, the environmental component parallel to the design review. And that has its own kind of engagement process, but it's a valid point to have a jargon-free deliverable for folks to kind of be able to easily digest. The corrective action plan is dictated what needs to be in it. And so for me to do my job in the corrective action plan, 400 pages, if we get away with 400 pages, I'll be happy. It's gonna be longer than that. I mean, it is just the nature of the very least. But I think you do raise a valid point about that. Well, even though, I guess I wanna specify that even a non jargon-free plan to be able to have that accessible to the public who are willing to wade through it would be really helpful. Thank you. Thanks, Andy. Thank you, raise your hand first. So I know that like the Southern Innovation District overlay is like in progress. That's not legitimate yet. It's still being discussed and could change before or if it becomes malol. But as soon as, as far as I'm aware, this project site kind of falls within what would become part of that as it kind of stands right now. And so like, as also again, it's kind of influx and there's a lot to read about it. But the way that I understand it, there's kind of different understandings around surface parking. So I just, I don't know if there was, in terms of that, it's not really supposed to be there. And so like looking at kind of just the larger narrative of what is kind of going on in the South Bend and trying to say, we kind of have this, all of the surface parking that exists in the South Bend we're trying to like make that more useful and to be putting up a new development that, you know, from the top down is a lot of surface parking and then single story commercial space. I'm just like wondering like, how does that kind of fit in with maybe what the city, again, is not finalized, but it's kind of like intending to kind of do with this area. And so the question was like on the surface parking and how that kind of fits in and then the kind of underutilization of the commercial space as well. So to speak to the surface parking, I'm not familiar with the parking changes associated with the South Bend Innovation District, but right now we do have to meet, there's a maximum requirement for parking. And I believe it's around a hundred spaces, the site could based on the square footage, but we're actually showing 78. So we are below that right now and we are hoping between, there's parking behind maltex too, so that there will be some shared, you know, between the developments. So, and then I'm sorry, what's the other one? Like the underutilization or the single story kind of commercial space. Oh, right. As we're trying to hopefully build more mixed use and dense around this area to kind of have like a really low. Yeah, I can speak to that. I mean, it's a really complex site as we laid out. And so, and there's only the really, the good soils for developing are really only that front section on Pine Street. So we, so that's one thing. So it's actually not a great site to try to maximize and the expense from the state for the developers would be, is just astronomical because of the extraordinary conditions of the site. So it's actually one of the sites that should be more underdeveloped, you know, opposed to some of these more, you know, open spaces that aren't brown fields next to super fun sites. And it's very expensive to build right now too. So that's just a major limiting factor for construction. I mean, even with the same footprint, like, you know, even as a second story for artists space or things like that to kind of contribute to kind of that area of Pine Street. Yeah, we could have put a second story on that building, but it's just the building expenses right now are just really, really challenging. So we are really staying focused on the bathhouse and but we feel like adding three studio spaces or retail spaces or whatever they are will be an additive, but that's all we could really budget out at this time. Yeah. Yeah. I had a question about the operation of the bathhouse. I was just in May Gog this winter, one of those 20-something degree below zero days at the bathhouse and it was very pleasant except for my bathing suit, which was frozen against my thighs. And so I was just wondering, given that Senator Lay, he started his career by legalizing public nudity in Vermont, what the rules at the bathhouse were gonna be and how were you gonna prevent people from just walking around naked if they wanted to? Hey, I have not actually gotten that far. With their robes on, I think. Yeah. It's like we have to get through this and then I can start thinking about curving nudity. So I don't know. I don't know if it would make it more or less popular. So that's up to you. It depends on the crowd. I think there is a survey out on our website. We've been getting a lot of questions and many different ranges of questions. Maybe for Saturday nights. There you go. I'm open. Yeah. I've been on the side of life in Tom Lucas-Jarris. I just wanna say, I think this is amazing and remarkable and I think it is an extraordinary, I mean it's clear it's an extraordinarily difficult site to redevelop. We are people who currently drive to Quebec and think it will be, like there is nothing like this. It's bizarre how accessible it is like 100 miles from here but there's nothing on this side of the border. And I think it's pretty amazing the looking at how it's gonna impact public space and accessing the barge canal and it's really grateful that you are speaking with it. Yeah. Thank you. I really appreciate the support and kind words. Yeah. Oh, I didn't know it was going to us. No, you. Are you gonna be putting solar in anywhere? I don't think we are at this point. We're just going geothermal. And so we've really decided to focus our energy and effort there which is also really big lift and commitment and we are gonna have, there's limited roof space because there's gonna be a greenhouse on one of the roofs and then so that we could put a small amount of solar up but we didn't feel like it was impactful enough that it was really worth the effort when we're really focusing on geothermal. But if the community was really, really want that we could reconsider. But yeah, at this point, that's what we're talking about. And the one story commercial building, with that roof, the one story commercial building, that roof will be designed to be solar ready if the owners decide to put something on. What sorts of materials are you're using? I've gotten so that I really like buildings with curves. And I don't recall curves. Lots of curves. Are there curves? Well, they're inside mostly. Are there other curves there? Yeah, it's gonna be a bit more of a Nordic kind of look on the exterior with all the kind of bermed, even the entrances is sort of this bermed curve. And then inside there'll be more curves. So it's sort of a softer inside and more of a kind of a harder structure with the earth and botanical element really softening the building. And what was the material for the building? We're looking to use the thermally modified wood. So it's a type of wood that they kiln dry so it can, it's longer lasting than just any kind of wood product. So we're looking at that right now and then there'll be like a standing seam roof. So again, like a long, you know, a durable long-term products of what we're looking at as well as looking at carbon footprint of all those products too. Good. Basements, no basements. No basements. Can't go down. Any questions only. Yeah. All right. I'm Jason van Rijs, I live in Caroline Street, just up the hill. I am also delighted that you were doing this project. I went to Bonaia for the first time in February and my wife, Susan and I went and she said she had never seen me so relaxed. Yeah. It was amazing. One question is may not be to this point yet, but I noted the other day that the sauna that is down at Hula costs the same per hour as an entire day at Bonaia. And I hope the economics of what you're doing are such that you'll be a little more on the Bonaia end of the price scale because 60 bucks an hour is prohibited. My main question is in the same vein as Jack's with regard to parking. And one of you mentioned asking something about shared parking with Valtex, but have you actually pursued any kind of formal shared parking agreement with them? And to what extent can you pursue that further and reduce your parking spaces? Because when you look at the area, it just really jumps out at you. What a giant chunk of asphalt there is right next door to what you guys are doing. And of course you need some parking right on site, but I would encourage you to put that as far as you can because that asphalt there is dramatically underutilized. And last question, three. Are you, will the property have a natural gas hookup or are you doing entirely like? Start with that one. I think there will be a natural gas hookup for backup generator. But you may or may not have a backup generator. I think we were trying to use as little gas as possible because we're doing geothermal. I think that we're also trying to figure out just how much geothermal we can do because of the uniqueness of the site. Dan is fully, Dan is gonna tell us just what we can do and we're working on it. But there may be that for really cold nights in the wintertime, we'll assume those pools as we talked about the frozen bathing suits, there may need to be some gas just on those peaks to get us through, but otherwise we're expecting geothermal to be the vast majority of what we're gonna do. We're gonna do electric kitchen. So there won't be any gas ranges that will all be induction. Everything that we can do electric that we possibly can within sort of the balance what you can do is gonna be electric. You said backup generator, I've lived in Burlington 15 years and I think the longest outage I've ever had is half an hour. Yeah, but our consultant said if you lose power in one of these facilities you're in big trouble. It really will be a minimal amount of generator just to keep pumps moving in the cold nights of the winter because you didn't have that much time. Yeah, there was a big storm. Yeah, everything would be, yeah. Basically, yeah. It's gonna be minimal. I think it's gonna, you're not gonna see some caterpillar generator on front sitting there. It's gonna be kind of weird and how to do what you have to do with this. We don't want to bet money on a generator that you don't have to do. Okay, thank you. One more question. I'll just be used to. Sorry, that was a big question. Two more. So, yeah, so Rick, he, we requested to work with him. He's the owner of one of the all of the multi-ex building and he put a paid parking there already. So that's in process so that people can use it beyond the folks that are just in the multi-ex building. So we can work on a more formal agreement with him. I can request something like that. And then we are gonna have dynamic pricing at the bath house. So I think that that will give a really great opportunity for us to kind of capture the out of town tourists on really busy weekends and they're gonna be paying top dollar and in stick season and middle of the week in odd hours, the bath house this will be very affordable for a local folks and we'll be offering a local discount also. So we have all kind of the pieces and we have to kind of figure out exactly what it's gonna look like. But I think that that dynamic pricing will really do a lot for the community. Yeah, yeah. Other questions? Yeah. I think you said something about parking but we did have one question online as well. Take that first. Were you, did you already get a satisfactory answer about the home tax parking? I can't remember. Good, thank you. Ruby was the one I was thinking of online. So this is Ruby Perry and I think this is the question for Dan given the foundation of the two buildings and the geothermal that you keep mentioning and also the pools and the greenhouses. I'm wondering, Dan, if it's too early for you to know or to guess how much soil are you gonna be removing from the site? We actually aren't in a position Ruby to provide that number besides that it will be not a small number. There will be soil leaving the site. The problem with the site as folks are probably aware is we cannot change grades to one. There's a line of the site that traverses north to south where there's a thickness of peat soils that are buried at the site that exceeds two feet. And in some places of the site, it's much more than two feet. And we have determined through the geotechnical assessment that we can't load those soils by more than six inches to a foot. And so for us to put in a parking lot of any size we have to take out commensurate amount of soil to be able to put in adequate sub-base because the soils at the site now are not suitable to support anything really, certainly not a parking lot. And like you said, the pools and the walkways and the foundation designs and whatnot will also be generating soils. But so there will be quite a bit of soil. We do not have a number and I'm not gonna commit to one at this time but it is not a small number, probably on the order of 1,000 to 3,000 yards of soil. And do you know where that soil will go? The disposal of that soil will be based on its chemical constituents. So some of the soil would be qualified as urban soil, meaning it's no dirtier than other urban soil, in somebody's backyard in downtown Burlington. And that can go to a waste site within another urban area. There are definitely soils at that site are also quite a bit more contaminated than that and would need to be landfill. So the closest landfill facility is obviously Cuttle Tree, but there are other facilities for instance in New York State, Clinton County landfill, which is just on the other side of the lake that are actually equally as far away from downtown Burlington. So they're considering that. We are also starting the conversation with landfills that are accessible by rail because we have the benefit of the well yard in our backyard. And so that would be potentially a savings of transportation costs and soils leaving the site. So- And will you know? Sorry, go ahead. Well, I didn't wanna interrupt, did you not finish? No, I was just gonna summarize that the yardage or the tonnage of soil based on this disposal site is something that we will be developing in the corrective action plan. So we're quite a ways away from actually having those numbers. At this stage, we are really just trying to figure out what facilities are available through the types of soils we have. So we're still in that stage of the planning. And one last question and thank you for that. One last question is, is there any prioritizing of when you're making these kinds of decisions about how much soil has to leave and how much soil you can leave in place? I know you're given the restrictions of the peat that's there, but if it means a pool not being able to be there, if it means geothermal won't work, are you playing at all with different priorities slash values? Do you understand? Yeah, there's certainly like, trimming around the edges gets you some so far, but we still want the project to be successful for all the reasons it's gonna be successful. There are definitely ways that we can limit that cut using things like geogrids and other kind of geotextile membranes that kind of reduce the amount of soil that has to go away. And the foundation designs as we're kind of zeroing in on them sound like they're gonna be supportive of less soil moving out. So we're doing our best in the engineering side of the house to limit the soil to going away since it is such a large component of the cost going forward. Yes, and then when it goes away, it's literally just going to the landfill, right? It's not going to be remediated in any way. Correct. It's the land that's being developed that you're addressing as remediated. Correct. Okay. Thank you. Thanks. And still up, but I think you talked to everybody online. I think we've satisfied our audience here. So I appreciate you coming in to talk to us about this. One final comment. Thank you, I'm very excited about the project. So I'm glad you're putting in garden since so few people didn't really like it. Thank you so much. Thank you, everybody. I appreciate it, and thanks a lot. And can we thank Farid for the food? Sorry, yes. Thank you for Farid. I mean, in the middle of preparing food during our recent announcement. Thank you. I'm ready to start the interview for this. Thank you. I raised the globe at bay here. I think you want to thank us, Tom. Thank you. Thank you. So we can get six or seven days. Eight books for a gentleman. Thank you very much. Thank you. Thank you to adjourns. Sorry. Thank you to the May 18th NPA. Thanks everybody online for joining. Buddy in the room as well. Can you hear me? Oh, I think you're right.