 Now modeling the 1983 Neumann u-87. Let's bring on mr. Chase. He was ladies and gentlemen mr. Chase beautiful Mike We did do it. I'm fine casing Used by everybody from Tom Lennon to but static was a bit of a problem with that I don't think he's something he can't get past right now mark So just in a few minutes is gonna move on to the sure SM 57 a little bit cheaper in the models Here we go Hi, I'm Scott Rouse my body language expert and analyst that trained law enforcement in the military in interrogation and body My god Chew an ice cube while you were doing that. Oh, yeah I'm Scott Rouse my body language expert and analyst I trained law enforcement in the military in interrogation by language chase Hi, I'm Chase Hughes did 20 years in the US military published a number one best-selling book on behavioral profiling reading people persuasion and influence and now I developed tactics for intelligence operations and the general public and I have just written a fiction book which is right here behind me called phrase Seven soon to be a television series Greg Yeah, I'm Greg Hartley. I'm a former Army interrogator interrogation instructor Resistance to interrogation instructor I've written a bunch of books on body language and behavior Scott and I have a number one body language Tactics course find us at body language tactics.com and I mostly spend my time with corporate American Wall Street today Mark I'm Mark Bowden. I'm an expert in human behavior and body language I help people all over the world to stand out win trust and gain credibility Every time they communicate including some of the leaders of the G7 All right. Well today, we're gonna be talking about Amanda Knox That's a sort of an old case But we got to look at it and people kept saying do this case do that one and Amanda came up a lot So that's what we decided to do. We've got nine videos all together We're only gonna cover five today so there will be a part two to this and I know everybody has a little bit about what they want to say about what we're looking at Greg Do you want to go first? Yeah, and I want still any thunder from you chase here on some other parts But guys this is a messy messy case I usually can pick up a case walk through it and say, okay, that makes perfect sense Go read this one. This is a chaotic mess about how it finally ends up She does a lot of different things in her interrogation where she writes a statement that looks like a house of mirrors It gives her outs and all those kinds of things. She says that she was coerced So for us, we thought this was a good one because we can look at body language And we're only good. We're going to look at the body language, but I will tell you You've seen me a lot of times this one brought out the interrogator in me I always say I try to be a body language guy not an interrogator This one brought out the interrogator when I watched her I understand why interrogators chased her like she was running It it gets there's a lot in this video So I believe it at that in terms of this video and I think all of us are going to have a lot to say about Amanda Chase Yeah, so one thing I think we get a lot of comments on the video like this Have you guys not looked at the DNA analysis? We're not the forensics panel We're the behavior panel and there's tons of other stuff where people can analyze the forensic data I'm not an expert. I don't think any of us are what we're doing here is for education and Entertainment so that is just so you can analyze this interview and what we're going to do is treat What you're about to see as if this is the only evidence that we were ever presented So we're not going to take into account anything else So we're going to pretend like we're the ones who watched this video right after everything happened and show you our opinions And what we would say if this was all we had Yeah, and chase can I have one thing back to that? I think what you just said is important and what we're not saying is she's guilty or innocent What we're saying is this is what I see and if I were an interrogator sitting across the table from her What would I go after right? Music Mark you and add anything to that. Yeah, simply though. I've never seen this person before I Have seen no other interviews with her all I got was the that particular interview from Scott and I looked at that and then afterwards when Scott, who's this? What's happening here? So I literally looked at this fresh With no context at all that could be a good thing that could be a bad thing or it could be nothing But I'm just letting you know my situation in this I think I think it's gonna be a good thing because it's gonna show right You know how you can see something then very quickly break it down. So that's of course mark being the guy We usually I like to say mark for the end of these things sometimes because he just wraps everything up We always talk about that behind your back markets. So, you know how you wrap everything up. So it sounds so makes a sound smart But so there's also the hammer and nail thing three of us are hammers Yeah, these rivers are interrogators. So if you turn to run we go after you And mark you don't do that and I think it's a good. It's a good balance for us And I agree with you great cuz as you know cuz we spoke about this earlier soon Is I've watched some of the things like whenever this happened a few years ago I was like, oh, she lied or tell the truth and on this my everything came out every little thing came on Oh, holy smokes. This is there's a lot of questionable stuff going on here and you're right when she starts running It's it's hard not to chase but I think whoever's whoever's interviewing her man. They didn't say a word They didn't it was it was perfect. You know is actually asking questions to shut up So that was that was really that was that's what we're going for. It's beautiful. Yeah, all right So let's get started and let's oh as we go through this remember we're not We're we're not doing politics, but on this we're not saying somebody's guilty We're not seeing somebody's innocent We're gonna show you if we say I see what looks like deception and it looks like it's here here and here And then we'll show you why if we say we're seeing truth and here's what the truth looks like here It's here here and here. So that's what we're seeing and again, we're not going through all the evidence We're not doing all that. We're just showing you what we're seeing in these videos period. That's it All right, ready? Here we go. Um, I When I first went in It was very strange to me And I didn't know what to think because yes, the front door was open But everything looked normal everything that I saw just in walking in the front door going to my back Bedroom and going to the bathroom of the various bathrooms everything looked completely normal. So I Did not think there's been a break-in I just thought okay. Well the door Doesn't work very well. So maybe Someone didn't close it all the way and then once I saw the blood in the bathroom I In the in the feces in the toilet I thought Okay, well, that's really weird First of all the blood in the bathroom like it wasn't a lot. So I didn't I didn't assume that someone had been murdered I am I assume that either someone kind of hurt themselves or there was menstrual issues And and they hadn't been cleaned up. And so I thought okay. Well, maybe somebody ran out really quickly and is coming back Maybe someone went downstairs into the apartment below. I didn't know but okay, so here I'm gonna get I'm gonna go first this time Here's here's the way it looks to me One of the first things she says is I went in and everything looked normal, but it felt but it was strange to me She's telling you one thing but she's coming back the other way with something else Then she talks about how when she goes through the house when she see that she comes home The door is open first thing you do when you when you come home the door is open You call the cops you don't go in that's the last thing you want to do especially pure girl by yourself You don't go in the house. The person could still be in there or the people could still be in there and She starts what I'm gonna call and keep referring to her as her Campaign of confusion about how confused she is and all these things how she doesn't understand what's happening We're gonna see literally a campaign of that as we go through this as we go through this story And when she talks about what she says it was very strange to me and everything looked normal It's like lyrics from a sticks album, you know the pieces of eight or one of those things from back in the 70s It's just it's just weird and then when she goes in she doesn't Call out to anybody she doesn't say hey Meredith. Hey Any of the other girls, right is anybody here? Is it just you know, what's going on everybody? Okay, she doesn't do that. She goes back to her bedroom and to two bathrooms She goes to both bathrooms in the house. Who's gonna do that? So that was odd and then she says she found blood in one bathroom and feces in the other in the blood She said I could be that could be a menstrual situation with for women But when that happens, you're gonna say, ah, come on and you may leave it or may depend on what kind of person Yeah, you may clean it up whatever but when you go to the other bathroom and there's feces in there in the commode You're not gonna be creeped out. You're gonna be yucked out. It's gonna be disgusting You're gonna flush it. You're gonna say who's the pig? That's the first thing you're gonna think and you're gonna think since it's a house full of girls I would think I'm not a girl. So I don't know but they're gonna say so-and-so had somebody over or somebody's been here Some guy and did that and didn't flush it. So you're gonna flush it. That's coming. Come on She I don't think she's an animal, but she should you know, I would assume she flush it then she says I didn't assume anyone had been murdered. That's her first laugh And that's the first time we see her body language is sort of almost exploded into a lot of movement stuff Is her hand goes almost above her head and her head her head goes back and we see She laughs and she her head pushes forward as she's looking to get that to sort of try to bond with that person Get them to listen as in right right to get that acceptance and request for approval, which is Greg's has Coined that that's when the eyebrows go up and you say something hoping that person will okay that and agree with you So we see that we see the request for approval and then and I think I'll get some pushback from Greg and chase on this as well Because we're talking about eye movement where her eyes are going to where she's looking now There's a thing and I thought about what I was gonna say this or not on here because That's one of the things I like to use. I don't want anybody to watch this go. That's that dude Here's what he's gonna do usually looking for This is something I call the safe allowing safe critique Where she's talking and she starts talking about how strange things are but she looks down and then she starts to talk about how weird It is because when you're talking to someone when someone asks you a question and you're answering their question You're looking at him and you have this this social bond I'm gonna look at you while you're talking to him because of look around it's gonna be weird I may be look pervy or whatever it's gonna be. I'm gonna look you right in the eyes Where you're telling me with that. I'm not gonna look at you So she looks down and allows this safe critique to happen of her body language And she starts telling her story and then her head goes up or her chest comes out a little bit her head goes up Almost like she's a little child and she starts telling every time she starts talking about it's strange And she allows this safe critique, which we'll see a couple times Then we're gonna see You see what's called a mini sink throughout this Story we have tons of little stories all around it there There there are just little things going on all around this story line as it goes forward There's a guy named Yuri has he was at Princeton still there and he did it Some research and what is what his main research thing thing became famous for was this thing called the brain sink And what would what he did was this that he there's a Russian woman He had a friend his come in to where they're doing the studies and he put her in an fmri machine And they clocked that they watched her brain They recorded where your brain looked as she told a story He said tell a story and while she told the story they recorded the audio of it while it's recording what her brain is doing as well right, so Well, this is going on Then he has her tell it in Russian same story in Russian and they record what's happening in the brain or record what's happening Audio wise There's that then they bring in different people other they bring in students I believe to be the test subjects and what they do is they put them in the fmri machine and they play them the audio Of the Russian woman telling the story in English and she's telling it Certain parts of her brain lied up when she talks about colors some part of brain lights up She talks about being somewhere or feeling something another part of her brain would light up So when they put the the other people in the fmri as well And then played them the audio of her telling the story the same things would happen to their brain When her when she talked about color the specific part of her brain would light up the same part of that person listening Their brain would light up You'd start talking about feeling something something get aesthetic that part of their brain would light up and this went on for I think it was 12 minutes I don't know why I think it's 12 minutes probably that was the time did this to a bunch of people right then they as they did at the first thing they did was play in the English version then they played the Russian version when they played the Russian version Nothing happened the same parts that didn't didn't light up It was other things that happened and they were different for each person because they're not following the story now when those Parts of the brain start lighting up together the two different brains. That's when he calls it a brain sink That's when they're locked together and they're going through the the story together That's why when you're helping someone pitch or teaching someone to pitch their idea their concept To sell to her to get funding you want them to do that tell a story because it locks that person in with you And they start living that with you you see it in movies where everybody jumps up at the same time because they've seen Somebody not just jump out of the closet, but they're getting ready to it Everybody starts getting all fired up for that So what she's doing is what I call the mini sink with these small stories She starts off and she gets a tiny little sink going with you tell you something then stop and then going forward Although it's part of this big story that she's telling and we see these things called me and you see cons do this constantly That's why I'm y'all know my fascination with cons and psychopaths cons and psychopaths will do this to get your attention To get you to bond with them really really quickly That's one of the that's one of the keys to to getting somebody to give you money to fall for something That's one of the biggies is the mini sink. I don't know if it's been named before but that's what that's what I'm calling it But we see those as we go as we go throughout this big sink of the story now I'll stop there. I can keep going and going but so much. Yeah, there's tons of it chase What do you got at the risk of making this sound at the intro like a college lecture? I'm gonna talk a little bit about a study here, but only to set you up. We I promise we're not gonna do this the whole video But there is a great study by Greenberg Stone and Wortman at the State University of New York and This they took 70 people and they were wondering if Writing about falsified traumas or made up stories. It was therapeutic So as the control group they took 70 people who had real who experienced real traumas Had them write a couple sentences about it and describing it or a couple paragraphs Then they took 70 more people and had them write something else They had them write a fake trauma something that was invented And it was shocking that they found in the results They could tell based on what word choices these people used which statements were false and which one We're accurate with about 95 99% accuracy just on word choice Now what happens here is when you're retelling a story it occurs in three dimensional space So as we go through this video listen to see if if there's a real three-dimensional space being described Or a fabricated memory another thing that happens is Emotional telling and there's an overuse of verbs If my dad died I'm gonna tell you my dad died, but if you make up the story You're gonna have to first think how would I feel now think about this? I'll have to describe my feelings using more verbs, but if I say that my dad died Me being sad is implicit Me trying to fake it. I would want to think first I'm reliving the story so the verbs will come out more because I'm experiencing it live with you But if it's a traumatic event, it's over and I'm just retelling an event But a made-up story I'm experiencing it live in the moment and I'm embellishing a little bit with extra verbs There's a couple of the things that we'll touch on throughout the video But I want to prep everybody for that at the beginning because it's really important to listen to the word choices here Does that occur in three-dimensional space? Are we seeing an overuse of? Verbs and there's a lowered use of self reference pronouns Which would be I me and my throughout the story which is indicative of deception and that's been proven Beyond a doubt in a lot of these Statement analysis and if you want to look this up There's a book called the secret life of pronouns by dr. James Pennebaker He is the head psychologist at the University of Texas at Austin great guy and The only thing I'll say about the video which I haven't yet She says and then once I went to the bathroom So there's some missing time there which I first learned in my life probably seven years ago from actually one of Greg's books So appreciate it and I'll pass it on to mark since we got picked on for picking mark last in the comments a few videos Okay so look here's here's what I notice about it and I was noticing this around her Confirmation Glances that she does and the eyebrow raises that happen again I think they're around confirmation. Are you with me? Are you with me on this story? So I looked on this first one into what is the How is she telling the story and here's what I noticed about it? She will tell us what she saw first of all which I would be used to that in terms of a first Recount of a story look here's what happened this happened this happened this happened That's what we call in a story plot the things that happen So she gives us the thing that happens and then she goes into the process That her thinking goes through Yeah, so she goes now here's here's my cognition around that and then she goes into and because of that here's what I assume Was the situation and then out of that she goes so here's what I did Now this is quite complex storytelling which makes me think She's constructed this way of telling the story because of a Question that gets asked her about this or some of the ideas that people already have about the story So here's me watching this for the first time and I'm going So this is kind of an odd way to tell a story because it feels to me like she's already Constructed this to have an outcome in mind Which is opposite to the to the question being asked or or a feeling that would suck somebody would have about this Essentially, she's constructing a a logic I would say around a specific outcome Which is in antagonism to the question that she's being asked or the assumptions or feelings or thoughts Others would have so in my mind I instantly go so we're probably a good distance away from when this thing happened Or certainly we're a good distance away from it and others already have Their idea mapped out of what went on there and she's trying to change that Opinion that's going on and say look here's why I did what I did Because here's the assumption that I made because here's what I was thinking at the time because here's what I saw So your antagonism against why I did what I did It's not it not logically accurate. Here's the logic. We have to play your ideas about this and not logically accurate now When I watch this I had no idea why I have no idea what's going on. Yeah, I just go I just go so this is a well-thought-out way of telling a story when somebody has Decided already what they think of it Just that I want to give you one more thing that I think is interesting around this when she says the word Murdered she does a smile of fear Yeah, she has That movement, okay, it's kind of a smile She shows a bit of teeth and these come come down. It's often called the smile of it has a fear element to it I don't know whether that's what she's feeling at the time But it's a it's a big gesture and just as a an odd piece of information for you that I found out just last week is 40% of people on the planet do not have the muscles To be able to do that one that astonished me and this was from a facial scientist somebody who deals only in the face and the science around the face So I found that Extraordinary I don't have the data to back that up, but I'm taking it as accurate for the person who spends all their time Doing that and looking at that. That's that's a gesture that not everybody can do In my understanding that means there is some fear in the in that smile So if you were looking for the smile of a of somebody who has committed a terrible act It may not be that Pleasure in the act. It's the fear in the idea or around the idea of murder there That's my that's my bit on that first piece there So now I'll try to keep this as short as I can but this one is loaded with lots of things that would make an Interrogator go down the path of thinking she's guilty. Let's start with number one When she first starts off the story mark this whole point of storytelling If you happened to cross a little bit of blood and then you later discovered more blood You would not say you wouldn't tell it like that You would say hey, I first found a few drops of blood later I learned there's a big footprint full of blood when I got out of the shower people don't Control release stories that they're trying to give you all the information on so that's a red flag if you're an interiator You go after that at about 15 seconds She makes normal eye contact and then it drifts off from there most of the rest of her eye contact will be internal Conversation down Concentrating emotion feeling back up to make eye contact with the request for approval. Those are red flags when you're walking through I'm gonna give you one red flag that I noticed throughout this entire video and every time it comes up I'm gonna point it out. It happens six times If it just happens six times randomly no big deal, but it happens every time there's something it could be an emotional issue She does a very deep swallow She does it in this case at 27 seconds, I did not think there was a break in deep swallow and immediate down left internal conversation It it comes up again and again and again and it's around things that could be emotional issues those are Cheshire we say I'm obsessed with baseline If you bang your head into a wall enough times it means something So I start paying attention and then you start building your story and how you would interrogate it by hitting those key points There are emotional times when she takes a deep swallow is how I would interrogate her So she walks through this she talks about the blood in the bathroom There's a mutt and you you really have to pay attention at 39 seconds into the video She has a micro expression of disgust when she talks about the blood now She goes on and on and on about how disgusted she is with the with the feces in the toilet But little about the blood, but there's clearly a disgust microexpression There's also a lot of discussion and then there's a little bit of Something going on her face around contempt if you stop the video when she's talking about the the feces piece because there's a her face is not Symmetric at that point that's usually associated with contempt She does it throughout here, and I think you called it fishing for resonance of request for approval She'll tilt her head and drag you toward her with her eyes That's fishing for resonance to see if you're buying into the story and continuing down the path She didn't assume somebody was murdered a mark I think that's the best catch of the day is that nervous smile that fear smile You don't see that smile normally if you slow this video down or pause it when you get to that point You'll see some fantastic ones there, and then she's got requests for approval requests for approval There are so many pieces where she's trying to drag you into her storytelling given This is many years after she's trying to drag you into her storytelling It makes an interrogator's hair stand up and want to go after and realize like I said This is interrogator looking. This is not what's usually here for me This is not Tom Reed where I'm talking to a guy about a 50 year old memory and the story is a nine year old this is a person who has been questioned for murder and Imagine as an interrogator all of these red flags came out day one well You can imagine why they suspicious they're suspicious of her right there, and there's a lot of shoulder We'll leave those for later because it comes up a lot more but watch for that deep swallow This is number one of six. We'll go from there. Thanks Scott. I I When I first went in It was very strange to me And I didn't know what to think because yes the front door was open But everything looked normal Everything that I saw just in walking in the front door going to my bedroom and going to the bathroom the various bathrooms Everything looked completely normal. So I Did not think there's been a break-in I just thought okay. Well the door Doesn't work very well. So maybe Someone didn't close it all the way and then once I saw the blood in the bathroom I And the in the feces in the toilet I thought okay, well that's really weird First of all the blood in the bathroom like it wasn't a lot. So I didn't I Didn't assume that someone had been murdered I am I assume that either someone kind of hurt themselves or there was menstrual issues And and they hadn't been cleaned up. And so I thought okay. Well, maybe somebody ran out really quickly and is coming back Maybe someone went downstairs into the apartment below. I didn't know but excellent everybody good Yes, I Didn't know but when I saw the feces in the toilet it actually creeped me out Because that was just very unusual and so I left feeling creeped out I locked the door and I left and I went back to Raphael's and I kept brooding over it He was in the bathroom and and brooding over it I had brought a mop from my place because There was water on the floor in the kitchen his pipe become loose And so I was doing that I was mopping that up and immediately after he got out of the shower I was like Tell me if I'm crazy What what do I do about this? And he immediately was alarmed and was like no you have to call your roommates figure out what happened something happened And so I I tried to call Meredith her phone didn't answer. I tried to call Filomena watch I tried to call Laura and her phone didn't answer then I called Filomena finally and She was very alarmed by it She said that she hadn't been home that night. She had been out at the party and that I should go and check it out And so I thought okay, but I'm gonna go with Raphael. And so we were gathering ourselves and Mike you want to go first this time? Yeah, sure. So I want to reiterate again the Structure of her storytelling for me at the moment is the structure that you would create if you knew already the Objections that you're dealing with So she's she's created something which deals now I would suggest with all the objections. She's heard in the past like well, why why did you have a mop? Like what was so hang on? So you went back home and you were there was a mop and like you somebody was having a shower And so we you who was having a shower like why why did you have a have a shot? so so That's just interesting for me. Just as a new viewer to this my mind goes why that structure? Why do you need that structure right now? So it fires off for me. So it's going on here around this The story that she's telling is designed to deal with Objections not designed to tell you what happened. I Would suggest Okay, when we see her talk about feces in the toilet We get we get the disgust distaste in the mouth Where the sides of that if you get it if you get a lemon and you suck a lemon The sides of your mouth back here will do a certain action if you get a bitter herb of some sort and And you chew on that the moment it hits the back the alkaloids hit the hit the back here You'll get that bitterness and that's to let you know There's something especially if you were very small as a child There's something going into your mouth that at that age may not be good for you may not be good medicine and we keep that Bitter feeling or that distaste Gesture so something is distasteful Around around this well, it's feces in the toilet. So, you know, we can get as as to why but again Creeped out we get that smile of fear Again there can't quite do it there Again tricky what the reason I bring up that this idea of of 40% of people Maybe can't do that Well, that means you if that's true You haven't had a lot of chance to mirror that not only do you not see it a lot But a lot of people don't do it. So when it does get done, it's notable It's really special when you see somebody do that gesture In fact, if you look at the animations of a guy called Nick Parks who produced things like Wallace and grommet I don't know whether you've come across those British cartoons Wallace and grommet will often do that gesture a lot because it's so Extreme it's so extreme to see the smile of fear That it gets a lot of attention from our instinct. So again, just want to put that one out there The most important thing is we're seeing a story here Which is designed to deal with to countermeasure objections. I would say Greg let's go to you. What do you go? Sure? Yeah, she makes an overly big deal about feces in the toilet and this there's really odd thing that you don't see very often her Bright brow rises at the same time the right side of her mouth draws down Before she gets to the smile of terror, that's about 10 or 11 seconds. She does a smile of fear or terror Again, you're gonna see a handful of things deep swallow immediately breaks eye contact To down into the left and her lips go into a slight smile after all of that big deal about feces now by this point She already knows in real life not at this point in the story about the feces. She knows there's a bloody footprint on rug Hmm. Maybe there's some relation there I As I walk through this and there's a red flag you hit one of them just a few minutes ago chase She says and so I left feeling creeped out and so is a time-hiding device You know age old thing. What did you do? Mr. Johnson? I went to see my ex-wife I gave her the alimony and I left never mind. He backed over with a car in that process He leaves that time out with and then and so she does say and so fairly often in here So it may or may not be a red flag as you listen It's just a speech pattern, but she has a few red flag moments that around that hole Making such a big deal about the toilet while there's still blood in the room and those pieces and then doing the whole Smirk grimace smile, whatever you want to call it her body language this mop thing tells me it's a redirect It's some way to take more detail of the story. She edits as she moves and I think you're right mark I read that it became an issue. They tested it for DNA and all that and there was nothing on it However, it became an issue first so she has to point it out It's also a really good way for her to take pressure off of her story here and then at 57 seconds She swallows again as she corrects herself about a misstatement about who she called first second or third. So around feces red flag to around Correcting her statement red flag three with a swallowing so you wonder what kind of baggage there is maybe there's been something Emotional around not flushing the toilet in the past Who knows it starts to get me to say Wonder what's going on in the house and what kind of emotional baggage these people have now That's interrogator 101 you start looking for indicators when there's a red flag. So again hammer and nail Then finally around 106 She starts to do something she shouldn't do when she's telling a story and that's when she's talking about something negative She shakes her head. She's talking about something positive. She nods that will come up again later And you see at 110 she shaped she nods. Yes, and at 106 she's shaking her head patterns Now we're starting to see patterns. We're getting a good baseline for who she is I think I'll stop right there and that off to chase and go from there. So I get to say chase. What do you got? right I Went to Raphael's and he was in the bathroom Who cares? If any of us, I mean, we've all heard stories we've all asked people about things that they've been through I think I'm I'm Fairly young, but I've hit around the 20,000 hour mark on this kind of stuff people don't tell stories like this period So that was extremely unusual I brought a mop from my place his pipe had gone loose Which is a little strange? I'm I'm in fear for my life. I'm maybe maybe not should call the police There might be someone who broke into my house, but let me grab this mop so I can Clean up your kitchen While we talk about it. I thought that was a little weird and like Mark said, this is a Detail that helps you if we're talking about what Scott did with the FMRI and I've got a brain here If I'm getting a little suspicion a little electricity in this part of the brain and then I have to start thinking about a mop I'm redirecting resources And that's not something she's not sitting there reading textbooks on how to lie, but that's something we do naturally we'll redirect stories and I Don't understand How she says I tried calling. What was the victim's name? Meredith Meredith I tried calling Meredith and her phone didn't answer Which was unusual and I think automatically suggests that she knew the person couldn't and the phone did not either I thought that was an unusual turn of phrase there and I Think again, we're seeing gaps in time all over the place But we're seeing if I had experienced all of this How would I feel and that becomes part of the story? People are talking like even if it's something bad that happened to you. Are you going through a car crash? You're not gonna say the car in front of me slammed on the brakes and it terrified me I was very scared and then I hit the brakes that doesn't happen. We don't describe things like that even traumatic events So we're seeing this start to build up to a highly Dare I say deceptive level and I'll chase one note to add back to what you just said one of the things in my past life We would do is have men and women write statements and About true events and what we did find is that women would talk about feelings more than men would we would say I was in a crash glass flew hit me an ad I got a cut and a woman might say I got a cut in my face and I was terrified I was afraid, you know things that you and I would not say or you know, and it's a bell curve I always have to remind people want to talk about men or women or anyone else It's a bell curve, but yeah, you do find some nuance to those statements But I think you're dead on you don't say and then I was afraid that I might have a scar on my face No, that's not how people talk. Yeah And I think Women do use a lot more emotion and descriptive but not in this in this way I do agree with you for sure so further to that point again What we're seeing here is here's what I saw here's the process that I went through around seeing that so here was my assumption So here was my action and she may well name the feeling and then she displays a feeling So she goes through that pattern again that that for me is is is Notable it's a very notable way of of getting to end with a strong feeling in in two of the cases here the feeling of of the of terror and Get to display that right at the end Okay, all right. Here's what I'm seeing Now I'm gonna go get a little bit against you and Greg Chase when it comes to the the PCs in the commode and mark as well I think what we're seeing there We're not seeing discussed because I went back over this a lot and what we're seeing is contempt I believe because we want to see the one part pull up over here Especially when she every time she not every time but you see a much smaller one that we would argue over the second time She talks about the feces, but the first time We see contempt because I think she knows who did that and I think that's she doesn't like that person That's why I see that one little pop right there If you'll I'll put this back in there so you can see where it is because that was just very unusual Because that was just very unusual That's why I think it's not Discussed I think it's contempt and she because she knows who did that and she's she doesn't she's angry because that person Is such an idiot to do something like that. She looks down on that person over thing in that situation Also after that she laughs and that's the second laugh That's laugh number two we have in this when we're talking about a murder She's laughing in this when she's been asked about her part in what happened around a murder Given way too many details then everyone who's in the true crime has been waiting for one of us to say this If they've watched these videos before we watch this and they're gonna tell you and you see the classic setup of I Went back in so ins me and so and so went back and we found the body Because you go back and well I just happened to be in the bathroom and he was in the bedroom in the kitchen where the body found the body in the Kitchen we found it. I didn't just find it. We found it So I'm not I just not like I so you don't get the idea I killed them and then called it look what I found we went and called them So that separates you from a lot of separation going here I got a question for you the second chase a lot of separation from from what's actually happening there It's the next video chase from where I'll talk to you about that now Then out of nowhere out of nowhere she brings up this thing about the mop and she brings it up just Just though it's just a throwaway For example the way she says it goes. I've got the mop because he had the pipe that came loose and that It's like saying like if you're buying a new house and the person says to you This house is great. You're gonna love it. There's a park out there for the kids to play in There's no running water the part the cars will park right here in that three car garage It's fantastic, and you've totally said they tell you there's no running water, but it's just like it's nothing It just goes right on that's what I'm seeing here Greg We talk about when you do it like a Micro interview on something like that when it comes up Yeah, yeah, so a micro interview is nothing more than I'm having a conversation with you And it's going dent dent dent dent your baseline is fairly normal and suddenly I see something Blip up Scott you call it loping bump up up up I see in the sine wave a rise something is wrong Well, guess what we're gonna talk about now nothing But whatever caused the rise and then we'll talk until you blip again And then I'll expand it and we'll only talk about that so when there's an and then for example I'm talking to you and you say hey, I was at Scott's house and then I went okay Well, hold on let's talk about the end then and then you say well You know I went out to my car. I put the keys in and then hold on let's talk about and then again So micro interview is focusing on any time you see a red flag any of these things to swallow I would stop her right there and start talking to her This would be a very uncomfortable Conversation if you're facing an interrogator because all those pregnant things that we're seeing they may mean nothing But you're certainly going to find out you open and open and open until you find All the details Excellent now also She's the only one that doesn't get alarmed during all this she'll call people on the phone and they're freaked out and alarmed She talks to her boyfriend. He's alarmed. Everybody's alarmed, but her she's confused She's going along her campaign of not understanding what's happening. I'm confused. I don't get it I don't understand what's happening here separating herself further and further from what's going on and her understanding of what's happening here The fullest expression we've gotten so far is when she when Her boyfriend says something happened and her eyes go really wide and she pulls her head back So that tells me she's also that's a shock to me when he said something's happened I still didn't understand that still going down that road of her campaign of Confusion where I don't understand what's happening. I don't get it. I don't I don't see what's going on here So That's not cut there since we're going low. Hello. I didn't know but when I saw the feces in the toilet it actually creeped me out Because that was just very unusual and so I left feeling creeped out I locked the door and I left and I went back to Rafael's and I kept brooding over it He was in the bathroom and and brooding over it I had brought a mop from my place because there was water on the floor in the kitchen his pipe It got loose and so I was doing that I was mopping that up and immediately after he got out of the shower. I was like Tell me if I'm crazy What what do I do about this? And he immediately was alarmed and was like no you have to call your roommates figure out what happened something happened And so I I tried to call Meredith her phone didn't answer. I tried to call Filomena Watch I tried to call Laura and her phone didn't answer then I called Filomena finally and And she was very alarmed by it She said that she hadn't been home that night She had been out at the party and that I should go and check it out And so I thought okay, but I'm gonna go with Rafael. So we were gathering ourselves and so pretty good. Good. Yeah awesome here we go we were gathering ourselves and We went back to my apartment and I was already feeling very creeped out I was like clutching to Rafael And we were looking around and we actually opened Filomena's door and that's when we noticed The the window was broken. So I immediately thought oh my god, there's been a break-in and I started running around I went I went into the the other bedroom, which was Laura's But it was spotless Like nothing had been touched her bedspread was pulled like so wonderfully clean Like a like a hotel like she was a very she was a clean clean person Which is why it struck me so Strongly that in her bathroom of all places there would be feces left in the toilet I was like no Laura's the clean one. So So her bedroom was fine, which struck me as very odd because it's like if if someone breaks in like they're not gonna worry about ruffling things up and indeed like Filomena's room was ruffled up There was clothes and things toppled over and drawers pulled open and then her room was untouched The main room like the kitchen and that area where there's a stereo. There was a TV Untouched my room which obviously was not as medicinally clean as Laura's but like as far as I could see untouched and and then There was Meredith's room her door was locked and that was strange All right, so Greg you want to go first sure right at the start she's starting to build drama now She was not creeped out before but now she's creeped out. What was where is that her exact words as she's starting to feel I Forget the exact words. She's starting to show drama now. She's building up a dramatic bill chase. She starts to use weird words again I was clutching Raphael Right. She says I was clutching Raphael and then she does it an odd Downright droop of the mouth Makes me immediately think something is up with that whatever that why that's added. I have no idea Oh, she was freaked out. It's the term she used She's shaking her head. No, and she said we were gathering ourselves Which is not what I expect it makes me wonder is this how to sequence really far in house this whole thing worked in at And then into the thing she starts some pupil dilation a little bit of pupil dilation as she fishes for resonance You really have to pay attention But if you go back and look it's at 51 seconds her pupils lightly dilate as she's fishing for resonance from the person She's talking to meaning I'm trying to make connection that your storytelling point early in this game that where you're talking about Sinking she's looking for that sink in the person. You can see it in her eyes Here again, we're gonna start to see a couple of other red flags There was a swallow at 43 seconds when she says she was a clean person And then she goes down into the right to an emotional access in Q. So hmm creeped out by the feces story correction Now about the person being a clean person. I'm starting to think okay I'm gonna poke on her and say did you guys have baggage about housekeeping and and and Because I guarantee you something's going on there doesn't mean she killed this girl Doesn't mean any of that, but it gives me an insight into something going on in her head She gets down to where she's talking about philomena's room and philomena's room became kind of a Mop if you will it was a redirect as a chance for her to talk about something that's not stressful And then at about a minute and 19 seconds in she starts to narrate with their left hand instead of a right hand When she talks about a broken window and those kinds of things and then at a minute 38 She swallows again when she says Meredith's room was locked. There's a heavy swallow You'll see this again as we start up the next one, but that's what I've got for this video and Scott did you cover the cover? All right. No not yet. So Again, we hear her creating these qualifiers that show she doesn't understand what's happening and how she's afraid She's not learned, but she's starting starting to get freaked out because of what's going on She says I was clutching Raphael. Well because she's afraid. She doesn't know what's happened That's again is part of that campaign of I don't understand what's happening And she says I have no idea what's what's going on or what's happening Then she gets all animated when she's talking about the details of the other bedrooms. That's where the eyes get all wide She starts Talk about how clean and antiseptic one of the rooms are and hers isn't as clean as the other room all the while nobody's checked Is anybody home? That girl's door is locked. I didn't come up yet. What's going? What's going on? She's seeing what's been stolen because now she's decided there's been a break there's been a break-in and And once she decides that and sees the winter she doesn't Say hey, man, it's better somebody's gotten in here. Let's call the cops. No, she they start searching for the again They start searching for things you don't want to do that become home the doors open You think it's been robbed you've been robbed or somebody's they could still be in there get the hell out of there then Again, she brings up the the the pieces in the toilet thing and again You'll see that that micro expression of contempt. She knows who did that she knows who's that was and again Why didn't she flush it? I mean Really two questions. She's gonna ask who's a pig and then Then you know, why don't I flood it? Why don't I take care of it? She would go ahead and I've done that wouldn't have been it been an issue Yeah, and she and then she pretends still that what was in the commode belonged to one of her roommates Oh, she was the clean one. I know it wouldn't been her She's totally not even taking into account someone else a friend of one of the other girls could have left it there You know and then we see laugh number three. So it's three laughs in the middle of talking about a murder you were involved with her that you Happened in your home where you lived and at the end of this we'll get into the next video She starts again to allow another safe critique. So that's what we're seeing when she starts looking down talking about how strange it was So chase what do you got? Why is this poop such a big deal? It just it's the main recurring theme in a murder Yeah, and it's it's as if she is Papa bear coming home and finding this chair has been moved Somebody's been eating our porridge Something is a mess. There's someone upstairs sleeping in baby bears bed And that's that's what it sounds like to me and I'm just kind of borrowing from Mark That's good, man Yeah, and I think it there's some very unusual pausing initially which people telling an experience don't do you don't hear that there's unusual pausing and stopping to think about what she's saying and Creeped out clutching. I was like clutching to Raphael. She's trying to show instead of tell which is a great storytellers piece of advice and We actually opened Filerma Filamera filamera filamina We I can't read my own handwriting We actually opened that door instead of we opened this door So now she's shifted from self-pronoun to team pronouns as the crime scene is starting to be discovered But even then clutching to her boyfriend She goes back to describe herself in self pronouns running heroically around this house making a search Even though she's terrified clutching to her boyfriend. Now. She's the one that's searching the house Really weird and we don't get back to team pronouns until she says and that's when we noticed The door was locked. That's when we notice truthful people don't typically use words like this And I think with the window when she uses her left hand She's describing some kind of narration and maybe as you enter the room. That's where the window is But what's funny is When we experience an emotion or we visualize something you can watch it on the Tom Reid video when he says it was this Massive aircraft and his body and words move together You'll see her hand getting prepared to come up here before she starts talking about the window And that's what I call a gestural mismatch. We need to create some kind of a glossary and Universalize all these words But there's a mismatch between spoken word and the actions of the body. That's a big deal And then she says oh my god There's been a break-in and she was just so scared that she was clinging to Ralph. I Don't think that's happening anymore And then there's very vivid vivid detail of how clean Lauren's room was and no detail About the messy room with the broken window Not a single piece of description there And then there's a strange description of the house going one by one by one Of course, they don't check the closed door first and and it's kind of building up to this heroic scene of discovering the crime scene and I've never met a human being who saw poop in a toilet and thought there's a crime like There may have been a crime committed here because It's on the oh The piece the other piece guys that's not coming out here She got out of a shower by now and seen blood on the on the bloody footprint on the floor And that has not been discussed at all in any of this not it was the poop in the toilet It was the problem for her not the bloody footprint on the carpet when she got out And another thing chase I think you're right about that trying to look and tried the hero look Like I always go back to Kafka on some of this stuff But it's that Kafka-esque thing every man is necessarily the hero of his own story in a nutshell So I think you're right there. I'm with you on that. I totally see that Mark what do you got? Yeah, so here's what here's the patterns that I'm seeing because at this point with with three in to something I know nothing about and now my Analysts mind is going what pattern am I starting to see what's going so here's a pattern She's got a lot of eyebrow knitting a lot of the time That's to signal to us her confusion. Just as Scott was saying it's now a story about Confusion she does confusion Concern and then confirmation every time so you see how confusing it was do you see Because of confusion how I got concerned in this way and started down this action Do you get why I I do that? So there's a strong pattern there the other strong pattern that I'm seeing is that and and we were talking earlier about what people's notes Look like and here's what my I don't know whether we can see that But here's what my notes look like but seeing that box down there at the bottom of the page Yeah three in at the bottom of the page three in I've scrubbed something in a box and it says People who are clean people who are not This is a story for me about people who are clean and people who are not and that for me now in my analysis Is the core of the story? It's so it's a it's a theme That's now strong in my mind around this there are people who are clean and there are people who are not clean Now I don't know what that means and I don't know whether that causes people to murder or not murder or flush or not flush But I do know in her story. There's a strong dialectic people who are clean and people who are not and when she then Finally gives that idea. I think it's wonderfully clean. She says wonderfully clean and she does again this smile of terror So that's interesting that at the end of these Patterns she'll usually end with a smile of Terror and maybe a Scott says if we slow that down. We may see some disdain in there as well What's most interesting for me is she wants us to know that the idea of wonderfully clean Is is notable and important so certainly it's enforced itself on me So mark here's an interesting thing the deep swallows are at Creeped out by feces. Yeah Then there's a swallow a deep swallow at story correction. Then there's a deep swallow and she was a clean person Accessing and then when they get to marry this door, there's another deep swallow there. So Yeah, those are it's interesting you're what you're seeing and That deep swallow are tied tightly together in these places. So it'll be interesting to see I mean again micro interview would tell us why we don't have that luxury We're just reading secondhand, but yeah, I think that's a great catch and we see at the end just one last thing Meredith's room. Okay, when we get there the tone and the rhythm Completely changes around the way she's been running with this Story again, I don't know why but it's notable now around Meredith room that she starts slowing this down My guess is That it's a storytelling device. She's building drama Around around this building interest and drama because my guess is is we're about to have something Revealed and she wants to make sure that we're engaged in her story before she does some kind of Reveal around this that's what I got on that. I agree. I agree with you market at the same time I think what we're seeing there because I thought about that as well I think what we're seeing there is she's she's getting close to seeing it So she's got to be very careful about what she says up to that when they were getting ready to find the body When they're getting ready to come out of the crime scene the whole place is but the specific where the body So she's having to get she's making sure she's slowing down She starts slowing down about happy do that because she's making sure everything is where it should be in the story She's told up to this point because you can't change anything the other stuff You can add on and help them do all that and and but that's not that's not where the main focus will be It will be with us, but it won't be with somebody else So that's what she's doing slowing down making sure each step is where it should be going where she's stepped before that wasn't that was my take on that so we were gathering ourselves and we went back to my apartment and I Was already feeling very creeped out. I was like clutching to Raphael And we were looking around and we actually opened Filomena's door and that's when we noticed The the window was broken. So I immediately thought oh my god There's been a break-in and I started running around I went I went into the the other bedroom Which was Laura's but it was spotless like nothing had been touched. Her bedspread was pulled like so wonderfully clean Like a like a hotel like she was a very she was a clean clean person Which is why it struck me so Strongly that in her bathroom of all places there would be feces left in the toilet. I was like no Laura's the clean one. So So her bedroom was fine, which struck me as very odd because it's like if someone breaks in like they're not gonna worry about ruffling things up and indeed like Filomena's room was ruffled up. There was clothes and things toppled over and drawers pulled open And then her room was untouched the main room like the kitchen and that area where there's a stereo. There was a TV untouched my room which obviously was not as medicinally clean as Laura's but like as far as I could see untouched and and then There was Meredith's room Her door was locked and that was strange Said everybody mm-hmm Great mark that was fabulous. I wrote that down man. Thank you. Thank you That's the shit. I'm talking about that's why we have you on here. I Love the wrap. I'm like, I think Scott and Greg Are like animal hunters like wild animal hunters to go down and get them I'm the guy that'll shoot him with like a tranquilizer dart and go, you know Figure out the animal. What's wrong with it? How does it work? And then marks like the nature photographer of all this figuring out how they interact with the tribe their story and all that There is Meredith's room her door was locked and that was strange She didn't normally lock her door it had happened at various times, but Not it wasn't the usual thing And so I remember even knocking on it. I'm thinking oh if it's locked then Meredith must be inside I mean why else? Why like why would she lock the like it's not like we were the type of house where you had to worry about people going into each Other's rooms like if you close your door, it's fine And so I remember knocking gently and seeing if she would answer and then knocking harder and seeing if she would answer And finally banging on it and being like Raphael like we need to open this door Like I don't understand what if she's not here like why would she lock it and like I just don't understand like Maybe what if something happened like there and you're starting to try to put things together in your mind? Like there's there's blood in the bin in that bathroom And then there's then there's feces in the toilet and so like what like first of all I wasn't able to like try to understand how all of those things fit together And that was even like more disconcerting because it's like I do not know how to make sense of this This is not something that is very clear to me I don't even know if Meredith is here, but it's weird to me that her door is locked and so All right chase when you go first sure We see a lot here, but the most common phrase in this clip is I remember Which is strange and When she says and we got to Meredith's door it was locked and I thought that was strange when in Tom's Video when we did the UFO the guy who saw UFO when did he say I saw the UFO and that was strange It doesn't happen. We did a video with an 80-something-year-old woman who we all deemed as truthful And she told the story and this is a female not including like I saw this thing and it Blinded me or I saw this thing and it was unusual So we're starting to see more verbs inclusion of verbs Can be directly attributable to deception and that goes back to dr. James Penn and Baker's work and we also Nobody would say this if it's if the door is locked. She must be inside So we're not going through this thought process the door is locked. She's probably in there She may be doing something that's private for and there's lots of repetition I remember there's banging on the door and this is the first mention we get of Raphael's presence again So now that the crime scene is about to be exposed Raphael's back so there's a witness I had a witness as I was not alone. There was a witness with me there and now we're kind of going through an evidence list So now we're doing what? Obama was very very Good at which is preempting your unconscious objections or objections that are in your head He preempts them in the language in the conversation So we're managing perception of the revelation of evidence and if we're telling if we're storytelling This is what we call exposition So we're setting up setting up the the reader or the listener to learn about this this world that we've created and There's no accessing to home And when I say this I didn't do a whole lot of forensic research But I went back and I watched a video of her made by her friend Of her talking about seeing the naked Michelangelo statue And this is before any of this occurred and it's it's a few minutes long You can see all the facial movements the genuine smiles the eye accessing and her home is right over here for all of her responses And almost during this entire interview She doesn't look that way at all except to recall a few things right at the beginning that I think are truthful and Again, we're seeing Mark's trifecta the Amanda Knox triangle Of confusion What was it concern? Concern and then confirmation. Yeah So that's the the Amanda Knox triangle there. So we're seeing that again. I don't know how to make sense of this And I would say I would stake my reputation that this part of the story specifically is prefabricated 100 Mark, what do you got? Yeah, lovely Here's what I noticed most and and I got to tell you I I rarely do anything around What people might call eye accessing cues or whatever you want to call that Uh, it's it's wholly too complex for me. You know, it means you've got to you know Have enough time with somebody to baseline them and you really I'm not saying it doesn't work But it's not it's not it's not my easiest route Yet in this situation I suddenly see her and by the way and I'm I'm severely dyslexic So I can't even do left and right and I won't be able to do the reverse of this So you'll have to work out what I'm talking about and look at the images because I won't be able to tell you left and right But anyway, I see her in my mind now starting to look up and this direction A huge amount when she's talking about she can't she can't imagine in my mind She can't imagine the circumstances. She can't imagine the circumstances that would create the pattern That she's describing so she's doing confusion. It's like I I can't even imagine Why she's searching for can I create a situation right now that would make The details that we've got here tolerable and somebody would go. Oh I get it because of the thing you've just created here It matches with the details that we have down here. Okay, we'll stop asking questions. We'll back down. I totally get it I've not seen yet in this story that That extreme move from in my mind up here to down there. I may have got that reversed or whatever That's just the way my brain does it. Okay, you'll have to forgive me around that. I'm just telling you in advance My brain doesn't do left and right like most other humans on the planet. Okay So That for me is Super noticeable Certainly I go what's going on here? Why have we got why is this happening? Why do you need to create for me Some some fantastical reasoning why These events would happen do people keep questioning you on this or even for you Is it intolerable how this doesn't fit because it doesn't socially Fit it's strange. It's weird. It's creepy. You've told us all this You show up at the thing and now it's like i'm going to try a little bit to open the door Though everybody's super concerned and it's weird and it's crazy and it's it I'm not gonna Socially had you put all this effort in you'd be like well I was just trying to smash down the door as much as I could I mean who cares about the cost of the lock or the door or or actually I got in there and there was something going on I'm like, oh, sorry. Excuse me. I just there was you know We just all got a bit worried and it all seemed a bit weird and and and creepy and you'd apologize afterwards There's so little effort now being put in to getting Into that room. I would say Given all of those circumstances That my intellect is going there's something up here. There's something going on here I I don't know what at this point because when I first started looking this video I didn't know anything about this So that that's the way my mind is is working On this. Hope that makes sense to everybody Okay, great Yeah, so I'm gonna take one thing you said chase and this is a really good one. She doesn't say I remember many times It's the most pronounced thing she says and it's for a reason. She has not said I remember at all in this video until now. She has remembered She's not said I remember when they get to the door. She says I remember ding ding ding red flag Every one of us hear that and they're gonna jump on it if we're interrogating because why did she suddenly shift to I remember Well, there's plausible liability. That's what I remember. So we immediately jump to that Early in the game. She shows Dushane's grief muscle Dushane called that the grief muscle She and I can do it against Scott. She called that And she does that when she says the door was not usually locked And then she goes on to say she locked it a few times Well, now I wonder how the hell do you know she locked her door? Were you checking it? I mean, that's a little odd kind of a conversation and there's also another redirect that takes her down another path Um, she then says she also uses the word and so and hides something in here She says and chase you hit on it a little in the last video She says I like a couple of times. She says it six Instead of saying like like like like like when she gets to this nervous moment She says it 16 times in the short video That's a big deal something shifted in her thinking and that baseline shift is something I would want to know about Mark your eye movement piece you're dead on if we go to what you call home here chase and we're recalling If we go here for visual and we remember wherever we go and we go the other side It means something and when you people imagine they often leave their home or whatever you would call recall And as importantly she starts to illustrate with her hand behind her head The first time I've seen it That's a red flag something is changing in the story. I recall or I remember Eyes moving like like like like now given it's a stressful moment as you get close and Here's the fifth heavy swallow when she talks about the door being locked Fifth heavy swallow. So now we're building a pattern. We're walking through and that's something is going on her head at that moment So those pieces are all starting to make us every one of us suspicious just watching because it means she killed What it does mean is if she were in the room with us right now, it would be a very different discussion than she's having with this person Scott Excellent. Okay at the very top of this one. That's one more time. She's allowing that safe critique She starts talking about strange. She looks down looks away from so she didn't get that eye lock going So that person can observe her and see what's going on um And again She starts those qualifiers of the strangeness of how she doesn't understand what's going on Then she explained the logic fast. She puts together The the locked room and how the girl if she would be in there. Why is it locked? She's not in it. She sounds like captain Kirk from star trek if she's locked. Why isn't she in there? this really broken up Logic and you don't think that way the path the logical path doesn't take you down that that road quote unquote then Once she she gently all this has happened up to this point She walks in she sees all the steps goes back home gets her boyfriend all the steps happening And then she gently knocks on the door She's really who's going to gently knock on the door Then no answer. So I I'd act a little a little louder and then I banged on the door. I didn't hear anything It's and you it's at that point. You're like No, that's not that's not that that's not the way it works. That's not the way it works chase I'm gonna ask you that thing now talk about how will you remove yourself from something? You know when you say I I'm doing this, but I and you remove yourself from The statement Yeah, talk about that briefly because I'm gonna I've got something for that So just the word I remember is distancing language because it removes you from telling And if you're telling a story and you say I saw That's one removal because now as a listener I have to picture you seeing it instead of me experiencing it with you So we might start a story with that. I walked into the house and there was blood everywhere I didn't say I saw blood everywhere I'm now I'm pulling you in with my experience and then that typically goes away So anytime we're removing as far as I know If I recall I remember And which are those are exclusions, but it's still removing us out of the situation. So anytime The person who's witnessing your story is taken out of point of view It is one removal for every every point of view of removal In this 92nd clip she does that 15 times She moves herself from what's happening 15 times with her not understanding not And I exactly what you're talking about she removes herself 15 times at her blink rate. Did you get it chase? For this 39 I got 20 Okay So but I could be I could be wrong that maybe I started where you didn't in the thing I didn't do it for the whole thing just for the this the once she starts this Going down the road of separating yourself from everything in that in that clip Also, one thing we see that I think is fascinating She starts talking about how Their room their their house as well as houses where you don't have to lock your doors because everybody's you know It's a safe place. I if you like if you shut your door, we're not going to go in there That's when you see your head come up and she exposes her neck now This suggests trust it suggests trust, but it doesn't exhibit trust what she's doing is by doing this when you Expose your neck you're exposing your carotid your whole thing you reach in and grab it You can cut it whatever you're going to do and humans are brain the limbic system when something's going on They'll have it have you protect it because you see the chin go down the shoulders come up We talk about that when someone makes makes a statement We saw it and some with our prince andrew he would say something that had to come down and guard his throat She's doing this to suggest it not exhibit it and she's suggesting it because she wants the person The viewer to believe what she's saying trust me. You can trust me. You see I can she's not exhibiting it She's or suggests she's suggesting not exhibiting trust at that point still trying to create that bond with the The person watching the interviewer or the observer Um, then she just keeps going on about how she's confused about why the door is being locked I could go on there's I can do 15 minutes on this thing But I won't but that's that's one thing that I've seen when somebody wants you to start trusting You see that head go up hers comes down almost like a child or her shoulder her shoulders go back Her head comes up her neck goes up talking about trust and how we can trust each other So you can trust me in other words. That's what that was for me That was a big a big flag on that a big flag on that There was Meredith's room her door was locked and that was strange She didn't normally lock her door it had happened at various times, but Not it wasn't the usual thing Um, and so I remember even knocking on it. I'm thinking oh if it's locked then Meredith must be inside I mean, why else? Like why would she lock the like it's not like we were the type of house where you had to worry about people going into each other's rooms Like if you close your door, it's fine Um, and so I remember knocking gently and seeing if she would answer and then knocking harder and seeing if she would answer And finally banging on it and being like rafael like we need to open this door Like I don't understand what if she's not here Like why would she lock it and like I just don't understand like maybe What if something happened like there and you're starting to try to put things together in your mind? Like there's there's blood in in in that bathroom and then there's then there's Feces in the toilet and so like what like first of all I wasn't able to like Try to understand how all of those things fit together And that was even like more disconcerting because it's like I do not know how to make sense of this This is not something that is very clear to me. I don't even know if Meredith is here But it's weird to me that her door is locked And so All right, we good. Yeah, that was great me that her door is locked And so I asked rafael to try to kick it in Indeed I even tried to like see if I could see into our window through the terrace But of course I couldn't see anything and um He tried to kick it in but you know Especially when you don't know what's going on like you're not quite sure you're like tentative and like he tried twice and it didn't work Um, and so finally we he just called his sister who's a police officer She recommended calling the police we called the police We left the house because I I was nervous like I just didn't know what to think And I assumed there was a break in Apparently the person only went through filomena's room But why and if there was in her room her camera like sitting right there Like her laptop sitting right there like what did they take? I didn't see anything taken. Um So I just did not know what to make sense of it and um All I knew is it creeped me out So in this one one more time she entrenches herself and her campaign of I don't understand what's going on here I've missed I've not just misunderstanding not understanding what's happening. What's going on here And then she talks about how her boyfriend Tries to kick the door in and then he tries two times and it doesn't work now Since we were little children and and we were men And we're men now every man in america every man that I've ever met Would love to kick a door in and save a damsel in distress There's not what rookies live for that You know, it's like you get there's nothing you'd love more than to kick a door and save some girl from you know German sex traffickers or somewhere you and period sex or something like that So that's and he gives up after two kicks Come on man No, if you think the girl might be in there because you at that point when you first get there And he really did check the place if it went down like it was supposed to you lock the door Hey, man, you in there. What the hell and you to kick there's no kicking hers I can't go. Hey, man. You awake whatever you think she could be getting raped There's no telling what's going the person could be in there But at that point with if she's so alarmed that we need to get into her into marriage because he's going to go into guy mode And go let me get the door, baby He's going to kick the door and and save the day. That's what he's going to want to do So what we see in her body language what we see in her face is a micro expression of contempt When she says he tried to kick in the door We see that contempt go up because she thinks he's a wuss too You know because he is because he didn't kick the he didn't he tried twice Now some of us have been in those gigs where you kick doors in but And that headspace is you know, you kick it until it comes in till it's open because when you start kicking the door Everybody knows something's up. That's inside. So you got to go on through so that that That really that really irks me that bothers me about the guy since she's Maybe she's getting ready to get they're not that tight as a couple or whatever But she has contempt for him and I don't know if it's because he couldn't get the door open He's such a wuss or because she doesn't like him the first place and that's just part of that She doesn't like but that's the micro expression I saw Because she leaves Let's see Then she goes outside and see if she can see in from the terrace knowing that she couldn't how stupid me I I tried to go outside and see and again her campaign of I couldn't figure this out No, I'm so stupid. I go outside and try looking the window and I couldn't see That's what's happening there and then Um, you know when they say there's a break in and the only thing apparently he did was go through this one girl's room Again, they haven't checked this other girls. She checks She checks two bathrooms before she checks and the commodes before she checks on this other girl The you know the locked door that she's so concerned about and trying to figure out as she goes through um What I could go I'm like I I'm gonna get all worked up greg why don't you go Yeah, she didn't look through the window. Indeed. She looked through the window. That's a weird choice She's writing a fiction book or something. Dr. Smith. Dr. Smith from uh Austin space. Yeah. Yeah. He used to say indeed Maybe maybe she talks like that don't know but she these are weird words and I always say diction matters Which words you Use Are the creators of preparation there goes my hand moving is causing the thing to freeze up So word choice usually is a red flag for you if something doesn't fit then you wonder why that sounds like preparation diction matters Um, she also her eyes are downright a lot when she's talking about this and typically you think those are emotional or internal Kind of gut conversations But she's left hand gesturing again. She talks about this left hand gesturing and It's got I mean uh, she'll always talk about hemispherical tendencies I just always say right hand is what a person's normally doing the user left hand. It means something It's a baseline deviation. So I'll let you talk about that in a second her left shoulder is also coming up barely often as she's talking through the story And finally she's shaking her head I don't think she believes half of this. I think For some reason whatever the story is. This is her trying to convince herself that she's telling you the right thing Um, but there's body language of disbelief in here all that wrenching of your face as you're talking facts Is just a kind of an odd thing. There's an and um and um and um going on here as well so Do I believe her I would be poking awfully hard on the story she's telling He tried twice and it didn't work is when she's using left hand gesture And then finally she starts talking about the house. She says nothing was taken deep swallow There's the sixth Again might not mean anything But if they're always around things that don't sound believable in a story or they're around emotion or they're around Theses in the toilet and the other person being clean It gives me insight for how I would talk to this person about so come on Tell me what your relationship was with miradeth. Did you guys ever fight about boom her locking her door? Feces in the toilet Whatever I would walk down that path. It would give me an insight chase I picked up on the indeed right away. I think that's unusual And again if we go back to language profiling, there's a lot of guys who who are very good at this There is a famous linguist named steven pinker Who has done most of the research on this and he was in coordination with dr. Pennebaker when writing this book And there's I think they've produced around nine studies on this that have proven that an increase in big word uses Is an increase in deception and deception language. This is in written and spoken statements indeed so I think She says and of course I couldn't see anything So there's no way that I was going to be able. I didn't expect to see anything So it was just I'm just throwing that detail into the story And then she says You're a little tentative Like he tried twice and it didn't work and so finally Let's listen to that pronoun again. She says you The listener are a little tentative Which is a a pronoun shift which is possibly indicating some deception and b Another attempt to socialize her story and make you start nodding because she's saying you would be You would be feeling this way as well. We see that shoulder go up at all the critical points through here I didn't count how many times she said like Jimmy Kimmel has a whole show where he does that on the the bachelor where he'll go through a whole episode Which is fabulous indeed and then She winds up saying finally he just called his sister as if it's not a big deal He just called his sister and this is starting the process of evidence The discovered evidence perception How how am I going to shape how the evidence that's been discovered is going to be perceived? and If there was In her room like is what she said exactly And the unusual phrasing the likes the ums Are the ums when someone's saying that and especially in an interrogation context or talking about witnessing a crime They serve two purposes number one. They give you time to think And this is an unconscious thing these people who use this aren't reading a book How to lie to interrogators for dummies. This is a natural thing that we do The second thing they do is prevent you from being interrupted If I know this guy's gonna cut a hole in my story Or I know I've just said a lie and I'm about to keep going on the story I need I need to keep going so that I can't be interrupted and questioned about this thing So I think those are the two ways that we use those things And at the end she said it creeped me out again another use of this it really creeped me out and I would say that nothing suggests honesty here You know chase here's another thing when you say um and you're fishing for resonance. It's a good test, right? I'm not going to go a step further until I'm sure you're still synced Yeah, great opportunity And that's all I got uh mark. What do you got? perfect, so, uh, you know scott puts these Video files in the drop box you go in there The first two videos. I'm like, why are we watching this? I mean, I don't know. What's I'm fairly indifferent to what's going on by the third one. I'm like, okay this is kind of interesting because You know, there's people who are clean and there's people who are not and I'm now kind of going, okay I think I understand the underlying idea behind this story We get to video four And I'm kind of like, oh, this is this is now getting a bit disjointed and and I'm not quite this doesn't make any kind of social sense and and I'm now getting I'm now getting uh confused as to why there's so much confusion in the story We get to the fifth one and I'm like, oh, okay now now we've got a problem Now we have A real problem and my real problem here Is the double eye roll To I we've never seen a roll arise before we've never seen that signal of disdain The double eye roll on to see if I could see in this idea of Uh going and looking in To which would seem like, you know, if you if you're So so I don't understand where the Where where the where the flat or the house or whatever is situated But it sounds like it would be possible to look to look through Okay, it'd be possible to look through and my guess is is somebody at some point had said Did you not just you know go and have a look through the Through the window Okay I think she knows at this point that her her story Is a total rat and it's falling to bits and she's she's smelling her own rat She's isn't doing the the nose wrinkle of disdain, but she's doing the eye roll Double of disdain. I would say to say You idiot Now you this totally lets down your story. You've got a real problem. She seems to have a real problem with Looking through and not getting the data that everybody thinks you should be able to get She's got a big problem with it because Uh, there's a real gap there I believe it was at this point that I started getting really interested in this story going, okay So what comes next what comes next because now it's falling apart and she's just told me at this point It totally falls apart and disdain is interesting because it's not only about the individual it has social implications So I would suggest her mind is going They're not going to buy this come on you idiot. They're not going to buy the idea of You couldn't you didn't try and look through the window or you didn't see something earlier There's a massive gap in the story there and then afterwards Uh, it's either I only saw it once I didn't go back on it didn't have time It's either a push or grooming. I think either way it has implications whether she's going more distaste or Look, I look really good. So you should you should buy my story Not sure which one it is. Why don't you as the viewer go back and and tell me in the comments whether it was a push of distaste Or a grooming gesture that said look how nice I look Please don't notice that. I just did a double eye roll around this There's my take on this. I'm now interested in the other videos You know what's funny mark is when you say that when you're doing it for grooming you don't look away Okay, she breaks eye contact. Okay. Good one. All right. Where are you gonna say some chase? Yeah, what do you guys have for a percentage of truth? Oh, man I'll go first I think the percentage truth is about Man, it's really low. It's really really low really low and it's It's easy for me to say. Oh, it's you know 99 percent, you know Deception but the truth part of it. I'm getting maybe 20 percent and and I'm adding the parts where she left and came back those kind of things 20 23 percent. I'm gonna say 23 percent Truth I'm gonna give it 25 percent and then I was in the rest of it. I think is is deceptive I'm gonna go with 16 point three eight Oh three eight. I love your percentage So for me, I read the case. This is a mess. There is so much stuff going on And finally there's a guy convicted who went to short trial said he did the murder and there's a lot of DNA evidence And that kind of thing I don't know what it means But I certainly will tell you that if I were interrogating this person, it would be a rough rough rough ride And maybe she just has the most unfortunate body language of anyone I've ever met But she looks about 25 believable Mark, what about you? Yeah, for me, you know, it would depend on what segment we're looking at And I think that's the interesting thing is to go look obviously the more you see of Anything the more data you get essentially the more intelligent you can be Around the decisions that you're making now, obviously there's a window of opportunity You get too much data and now the brain is overwhelmed and it and it can't make a make a choice If we were just going on the first two videos, I would be relatively indifferent to this and be going Okay, so a murder apparently went on but it just looks like somebody recounting a story Quite well, who really cares? Let's just say they're being relatively honest and there's a there's a bit of a problem with some of the Tasteful elements in the story. I would go don't mistake that for lying. You know, they just you know, they didn't like Feces in the toilet. That's all But then by the time we get to the third and the fourth and the fifth It's really reversed for me. So now I'm really engaged now. I'm really interested in this And and because of those that double eye role in that I'm going for like you've you've you're there's something you're not telling me There's so I'm going like 100 liar On that now look look how how that reversal has happened. So I've got to take in more information around this else I'm going to convict somebody on on One fifth of of the video that We've seen so I'm interested in In seeing more So your story mark went from clean person To dirty person Well, it went from indifference to interest and and certainly like I like I would give you the benefit of the doubt On one and one and two Because I'm not getting enough heat To kind of to kind of go I'd like to investigate this more now if it were my job To in you then then I'd lay on the heat but as a as an idle Educated expert viewer Notice what has to happen For me to go there's something going on here and get really engaged in this They know Yeah We're not saying whether she's guilty or not That's what some of us are calling her a murder What we're doing is analyzing the statement the story the process The interview perhaps and whether or not that those are truthful And natural or real So guilty knowledge I think is there Guilt we have no idea. That's not our that's not what we're here for guys I would say the same This is a guilty knowledge test for me if I walk down six times She swallows deeply if I look at she only says I remember one time and it's as they're opening the door There those are big red flags. There's a lot of other little nuances and subtle things here and people can make mistakes, but if you Wonder why the police interrogators were climbing in your shorts We're showing you why the police interrogators were climbing in your shorts That doesn't mean that she kills someone. It simply means that they had the same suspicion that we have watching her body language Yeah All right. Good. All right. Well then uh, there's no difference in the can. Let's uh Get ready for part two Thanks guys for making this work. Yeah, I'm not around Is this mic? Is this mic good up here in this spot right here? No, no, put it back down. Okay. Hold on. You got a It's a little warm in here. Now you sound like a lifelong smoker. Yeah Hold on one second That's funny Okay, that's much better. You know what I'm ready to go when you guys are that that's I wouldn't do that to you man That's rude. I'm out of here. I'm out of here Of course that's got nothing. Oh man. We're doing the straight guys for this. Yeah. Yeah with We just I've been waiting on your retaliation mr. Hughes as you can see I've prepared This is only the beginning Beginning That's good though. Dang it. Where'd you get that? Why that picture? Howdy language tactics dot com. That's oh, I got it. I got it. Oh, howdy language tech is okay