 Good morning. Good afternoon. Good evening. Whatever you're listening. This is Davisville on KDRT LP 95.7 FM in Davis, California. We live at KDRT.org online. I'm Bill Buchanan, and I thank you for tuning in. Our subject today is Link 21. This is a big story, but it's easy to overlook here in Davis. At its heart, Link 21 is a transportation project that would create a second rail link across the San Francisco Bay near the one used now by the electric trains of BART near the Bay Bridge. The bridge is 70 miles from Davis, so it's easy to think, well, it doesn't really affect us all that much, but it would, and we'll learn more about that today. My guest today is Camille Tsao. She is the capital board or project manager for Link 21. And Camille, thank you for taking time to talk with us today. Thank you for having me, Bill. So let's, well, briefly, what is Link 21 and why would it matter today of us? Fundamentally, this is a project that reduces the distance between Sacramento and San Francisco, at least measured by time, right? So what's the project? How does that affect us? Well, the project is a mega regional transformational multi-generational project to improve passenger rail in Northern California. I know that sounds like a lot, but that is our vision, that is our mission. The way it affects Davis is, well, Davis has already got a train station, you already have riders, you already have a culture of using the train. And imagine if train riding were faster, more frequent, how many more trips could be made by train to and from Davis. And because it is a mega regional attractor having the university, Davis, unlike a lot of places is both a generator and an attractor of trips. So many, many more people around the mega region could be using the train to get to and from Davis. So the capital corridor service that exists in Davis right now has about, in normal times, it runs about 30 trains a day, and has about 370,000 riders use the Davis station, I think in 2019. So this would increase that number then. Yes, absolutely. Right now, Davis is our second busiest station on the capital corridor system. We love our riders, thank you for writing, and if you haven't tried it yet, you definitely should. It's a great way to get to and from Davis. But yes, what we're looking at, the reason why we want to transform the passenger rail experience is because we want more people to ride the train. And we want them to see it as a viable option when they're going to in front places. So, absolutely, we want to grow ridership on the train network. And you used the phrase mega region, which people use from time to time and this is the idea that the Sacramento area up to Yuba County to the Bay Area all the way down to Monterey County, really can be maybe ought to be thought of as one big area that's interconnected and that I guess you'd say that interconnection is sort of organic people are doing it already on their own and as a result, you need a transportation system that carries that together. Tell me a little bit more about how the service would change is it electric is it 24 hours a day is it more frequency. Hopefully all of the above. You know, you're absolutely right about how you describe the mega region. It's 21 counties, including all those areas that you mentioned and northern San Joaquin Valley as well. But yes, it is, it has become organic in a way I mean as our regions develop and grow in both population and jobs, you know, there's less space between our separate regions right and that's how we've become one mega region in fact we're the fifth largest mega region in the United States. So just, you know, economically, we're all connected whether we realize it or not. And so and to maintain our competitiveness. We absolutely need a transportation system that serves people and moves goods efficiently to. We can rail the solution, as opposed to something else, you know, I don't know telecommuting even with with the pandemic is sort of shuffle things why, why, because this will be this project will cost billions of dollars right and take decades to build. Yes, I put that effort into rail. I don't think rail is the only solution. I think we as a transportation planner I definitely believe in a multi, what I call a multimodal approach. So, you know, in some cases, cars are more efficient, but if everybody drives a car, it results in tremendous amount of congestion. In a train, we can carry a lot of people, you know, 600 to 1000 people depending on the train set for a fraction of the space that would be taken up by cars. But we need a transportation that has all all forms of transportation and we also have a ferry system here, which I think, you know, not not many places can take advantage of a ferry system so we need to we need to have it all. It's good to have options, as we saw, you know, in cases like the Loma Prieta earthquake. So, right, because when that earthquake hit the roads were not usable for a while. The freeways went down. Yeah. Of course, one thing that this does is it supports growth. I'm sure you must know Davis is a town that is often turned away growth it says like other parts of the Bay Area the mega region it says no thanks we don't really want that here. How does this affect your planning for the project and I don't mean just in the technical sense but there's a concept behind this that basically says we're going to grow for places that don't really want to. How do you sell this project to them. That's a really good question. And I think we, we continually grapple with how to manage growth. You know, how, how land is developed how densely is developed that that is under the jurisdiction of the city so you know that's that's not our place to say I think what I will say is that, you know, how we grow. We can, we can grow in different ways if we grow around, let's say, you know, transit and train stations versus spreading out being only really accessible by automobile. But you get a different kind of place. And so, not every city is going to approach growth the same way. And we're not interested in forcing anyone to do grow the way they don't want to grow. But for those cities that want to partner with us, certainly the cities that you know already have stations we're already working with them and have a relationship with them. We want to, we want to work in partnership. I imagine part of your approach with the project must be there'll be a lot of discussions you'll be having with different cities and communities and civic groups and whatnot along the line. Have you begun to do that yet or is that still more in the future. We're really just starting over the last year. We formed these working groups, which were more on the technical side, trying to anticipate questions that we might get. And we have started working with a small group of jurisdictions, and that group will continue to grow but overall this, this spring we're launching virtual open houses we're starting to get the word out. We've launched our website link 21 program org, which anyone can visit to learn more about it. But yes, we will be going to different cities, communities, and we're really interested in hearing people's thoughts on the program. One of the things I noticed in the description of it is, there's quite a lot of discussion about the importance of what's called the one seat ride. This is the idea anyone familiar with the Bay Area topography or geography will know. If you're in Palo Alto and you want to come to Davis by public transit well you've got a bridge to cross or you can go around the south part of the bay I suppose. But the point is you're going to have to change services. And part of the idea here is like this new crossing would be used by the capital corridor. If I understand correctly the idea is someone could get on board in Santa Cruz and go to Rockland or Davis or, and it would be one. They wouldn't have to get off the train is this part of the vision. And, and if so, why, why is that important that the one seat ride idea. It is part of the vision, however, as we develop the service plan there's going to be a combination of services so in some sometimes they'll be one seat rides and other times there might be a transfer. But I think the concept of the one seat ride really what we're saying is convenience. So for anyone who's ridden the train and had to transfer. Wait, two minutes or let's say, let's say you have to wait less than 30 seconds because you just cross the platform and get on to your next train. That is a very different feeling from having to wait 1020 30 minutes. So, the concept one seat ride, literally, yes, does mean you would get on and not have to get off again until you got to your destination station. And what we're really trying to do here is make it more convenient so if there are transfers that those would be much easier, much better timed than they currently are. So, the state, in fact, is updating its state rail plan, which looks at a what they call pulse schedule throughout the state and that means trains would arrive at regularly schedule intervals time so that transfers would be easy at stations where multiple trains meet. So the whole concept is really around passenger convenience and ease and encouraging people to use the train system as a result. So more coordinated. I get a sense, you know, easier to use that way. It's more coordinated, but another thing that we're looking at to, especially for capital corridor is travel time and reliability, because if people are going to choose between, let's say an automobile or a train. The first question they're going to ask is, how long is that going to take. Two hours right now from Davis to downtown San Francisco and counting the bus transfer and I would imagine you would want that to be a good deal faster than when this was built out. We would and we're looking at what that would take is it's going to take more than a crossing to reduce that travel time so we're looking at what are the other key improvements that would be needed in order to really improve that travel time. I'm talking with Camille. So she is the capital corridor project manager for link 21. This is the project to build a second rail crossing in the Bay Area, and really the larger idea is to help unite what's called the Sacramento Bay Area mega region so the transportation just flows more easily as the area grows. So who would this second crossing work, you know, anybody who's written Bart you know you get on a train you go into that tunnel you feel the air pressure in your ears perhaps you get off and you go on your way. Is this something similar or, or what. Are you asking the crossing itself I guess what would that be like it would that be like the Bart tube or would it be something new, or is it too soon to say maybe. It's too soon to say but I think it would be, it would be similar for it to be cost effective, we need to be able to move a lot of trains and people through that crossing so in that sense in the terms of, you know the number of trains that would be going through the capacity and we'd like it to be on the higher end to make the project worth building. So that we haven't worked out we're really at the beginning stages, people ask, you know how many tracks do you need to go through the Bart tracks, you need regional rail tracks because they are different. Are you going to accommodate that we're still working that out. I think what we're trying to do right now is we're trying to be open to different possibilities different solutions, because what we want to focus on is really achieving our objectives of really preparing the passenger rail network for future growth, and what is limiting us today, what is preventing us from doing that and having that second crossing would certainly help us. State identified this as a critical link in the Northern California passenger rail network, but we need to study it more, which is why it's taking a few years for us to even come up with some program alternatives because we're really trying to be thorough and make sure that we're addressing the issues that need to be addressed. One of the advantages I suppose about talking about all this right now is that it's still being formed. So there's still a chance for communities, whatever people who are interested to weigh in on it if they want to. One last question about that I mean would, is this something where like Bart and the corridor would still exist side by side or does this ultimately maybe replace Bart just trying to get a picture of that. That would be seen we're trying to take an operator neutral approach. We're really trying to look at this as a network and not think about okay what's bar, what's capital quarter I mean to a certain extent we need to do that, but what most folks may not know is that by 2035, we may not have the diesel powered locomotives that you see on the tracks today, we will likely be running some greener technology, much higher performing equipment. And so, even just writing what we call regional rail is going to feel really different. So, it is a challenge to imagine what that network would be like in the future because it's easy to get caught up in what we've got today. And the reality is, it's going to be quite different. How much would all this cost, and how's, how's it going to get paid for. That's the billion dollar question. Well literally I think right. Many billions. Yes, it will likely be in the billions. We don't have a number, just because we're still trying to figure out what should be included in it. In the future's time or so we'll have a pretty high level estimate of what the program might cost in terms of how we're going to pay for it. Like most transportation projects in this country, we're going to have to put together a lot of different funding sources to pay for this program. I think what's important to note is that working together with our state with our other rail partners like there's a lot of other programs and plans going on and we're not here to compete with those programs. In fact, we want to work together we want to make the entire system better by working together. So, I'm hoping that that through these partnerships, we can be more competitive for funding because we are truly building out a system that is going to serve the mega region for many many generations. I can't imagine yet the state certainly gets involved in something like this because you're talking about a significant fraction of the state. And this is the sort of a project that might ultimately caucuses in Congress could create around this because it again it's large it would cover a lot of different congressional districts. Okay, Union Pacific Railroad owns the tracks right now that the corridor uses. Are they on board with this. We still have to work closely with them absolutely. We haven't presented a plan to them yet because we don't have one. And, frankly, it would be unproductive to show them plans that weren't fully baked. But we absolutely are going to be working with them when we have more developed ideas. They're definitely an important partner in this. And I think too isn't there, because the corridor is 30 years old. And if I recall correctly when it started, well as a different era then Southern Pacific owned it but the founding authorities worked out the state worked out a deal with Southern Pacific to pay to improve certain parts of the line in exchange for a commitment to run a certain number of capital corridor trains. And I imagine a deal along those lines would be, I don't want to predict anything but I imagine that's probably where everybody would look right something similar. If you want more capacity, pay more money, build certain things, particularly if you want that to be a faster line you'd probably have to do things again with electrification or maybe with. I think at the Martinez bridge built in the 1930s right it's occasionally it stops for ship traffic that's not going to be compatible I think with the vision that you're talking about. You're absolutely right. Yeah, I mean, we're going to have to work with UP. I would like to see our negotiations with the UP be coordinated through the state, because really if we're looking at the network. It's not effective. It's not efficient to go to sit down with the UP and talk about singular projects all over the region. It really makes more sense to have a discussion about the network. And I think that would be beneficial to UP as well. And the interesting point I mean Union Pacific, it's, it's a big railroad it's all over the west west of Chicago, certainly all over California and there are other rail projects in other parts of the state that would also involve in Pacific and different agencies doing their own version of something like this I suppose. One thing that struck me I listened to the presentation the other day and was this idea that looking at New York and in Chicago and in Washington, the amount of distance you can travel in an hour on a train. Well it was 35 miles out of San Francisco. And that's because of really the Bay crossing and such things like that. In New York you can cover 80 in Chicago 55 in Washington 85. And I thought that sort of illustrates your point doesn't it that real travel in this state because of geography perhaps for other reasons is slower than the idea is to get those kinds of Well it is speed but I mean that that sort of reach right that when all of a sudden done we might be able to go 80 miles in an hour here, as opposed to 35. That's exactly right. Those other mega regions you mentioned because their reach by rail within an hour is much further. There are more choices more options for people who need to get around the mega region. And I know we're mostly talking about passenger rail but now this goods movement is just as important trucks use our roads as well and we have a tremendous traffic congestion problem in our region as as as people are aware so the more that we can shift to other modes be rail or bus or ferry. The more we can relieve the congestion on our highways so it does be of us to work on the entire transportation system and have different options, which are suitable for different types of trips. The great thing about rail is that you're not sharing the road. Right, as long as you have that that capacity to run more trains as you mentioned. You can carry a lot of people and you're not going to be subject to traffic congestion. There's a lot of things going on reliability issues so there's there's a lot of different variables in the equation. No equity has also come up as a one of the goals of this project to build this out with equity in mind. How does that play out specifically I mean transportation really is supposed to serve the entire region. I mean in this case how does that affect your planning. Well, equity is an extremely important component of our planning. What it means is that we're going to be working directly with community based organizations, communities that have been historically marginalized or left out of the conversation or or impacted negatively by transportation projects in our history. Oftentimes transportation projects did hurt communities of color or low income communities. So we want to make sure that from the start, we have an approach that is inclusive, and that listens to the concerns of different communities. The way it plays out in the program I think is one you know we'll be looking at where are where are the improvements that we're proposing how does that benefit or impact the communities they go through. And secondly, when the services running. Are we in fact providing increasing opportunities for people to access more jobs to help them to benefit them to increase their housing and job opportunities and you mentioned earlier, the concept of 24 hour service. I think that having service available not just during the commute periods, but during most hours of the day is an incredible equity opportunity, because there are a lot of jobs are out there there are not eight to five jobs. And if the train doesn't run during those hours for you to access those jobs. Well then your choices are much limited. And you might have to drive if you have a car, or you might have to take a bus that might entail full transfers and a long trip, depending on how far you're going. I think the extended hours that we would like to make possible through our program is a huge equity benefit. I had one other question here this kind of a local one. Another thought I've heard about this is that as this project develops, there may be side projects that it inspires along the way. Of course you're familiar with Davis likely we have a track from Davis that goes north to Woodland, ultimately up to done again and places north from there. Has there been any discussion ever about bringing that part into the project I mean Woodland and Davis are almost twin cities at this point. I'm sure someone disagree with me on that but the point is, there's, there's a lot in common. If someone wants to build a city from scratch, there's land north of there where you could I'm not advocating it but there's room if someone wanted to do that. Has that ever come up this idea of using like that line from Davis north has that ever been mentioned in a idea along the way. I haven't heard of it yet but that doesn't mean that you can't be explored I mean I think our priority is to make sure that the existing system works well. The part is under has been under pressure in the past to extend lines and go, you know, have different branches going to different parts of the district. We have a system expansion policy but it's tough on the system if your core system doesn't have what it needs to maintain reasonable travel time reasonable reliability and the frequencies, adding more lines or stations may compound the problem. So first we just need to make sure we improve the guts of our system and make sure that works well. As they say that could be mission creep if you started going out to other areas. So, we're at the end of what was the website again. link 21 program.org. So people can go there and keep up on what's going on here and I imagine this will be a story for years to come. So we have been talking with Camille tau. She is the capital quarter project manager for link 21 about that project Camille thank you very much for appearing on Davisville today. Thank you very much for having me. I am bill Buchanan this is Davis fill on Katie RT. Thank you all for listening.