 Baiklah. Jadi, selamat datang sekali lagi. Sebenarnya, ini adalah kali pertama. Pertama kali pertama kita buat banyak Facebook, banyak Facebook. YouTube live stream untuk JudoDeaf. Jadi, kita buat kali pertama ini sebab... ...sebab... ...sebab... ...sebab... ...apa nama ini? Itulah COVID-19. Ada orang di DOSCOD Orange, kita tak boleh buat sebuah meet-up untuk semua orang. Tapi... ...at least, kita semua di sini hari ini. Jadi, saya ada di sini dengan saya sekarang... ...dengan banyak teman-teman saya yang terpaksa... ...menjelaskan untuk membuat ini bersama saya. Ya? Well, ia dah berjaya. My screen has frozen but it's okay. We are okay, very cool. Jadi, wow, letakkan. It has screenception. Anyway, let's get back to this. Right, so because of the DOSCOD Orange, we have this... ...and because of heightened health precautions... ...and because our venue also has certain requirements... ...and therefore we had to change our meet-up... ...from an in-person meet-up to an online meet-up. But anyway, good to see everyone back again. Well, hello. So, I have with me a bunch of my awesome friends. Well, let me present to you guys my... ...Judah Dev SG organizing team. So here, and they are the people behind the scenes... ...helping with the meet-ups, the mentoring program... ...as well as our... ...the dev gym, right? So, maybe they can introduce themselves... ...and they can tell you a bit more about what they do. Basically, I'm Max. So, I'm a full-stack developer. I'm a specialist in Python. Basically, I'm running startup with my friend... ...as well, doing freelance work. So, yeah, let's talk to me. Hi, I'm Rachel. I'm in product management. I help with the meet-ups... ...as well as the mentoring program... ...and general developers SG. I'm also a career switcher as well to tech. So, yeah, I'm also pretty new to tech in general. So, yes, hi and welcome once again. Hi, I'm Jacob. I'm a software engineer. I work at SPD. We are hiring. Yes. I don't have that much of content... ...as compared to these guys. Awesome hair, though. He's been working from home. So, I can forgive him. He's in shorts right now. Okey, and we have... Hi, my name is Yushu. I'm a software engineer. And, yeah, my knowledge at junior deaf... ...is currently zero. So, I'm new. Hi. Alright, cool. So, another thing that happened... ...was originally we had one speaker... ...who was supposed to call in remotely as Jenny Wong. And she's part of Human Made. But unfortunately, because of other reasons... ...she was supposed to speak at a conference in Thailand. But the conference was also cancelled. It's WordCamp Asia. So, the conference was also cancelled... ...and so she's cutting short her stay in Asia. And she's flying back to England. So, because of all these things that are in flux... ...she was a bit unsure about... ...being able to give us a good quality talk online. So, also... But anyway, take care, Jenny. Have a safe flight home, in any case. Right, so let's... So, what I hope to do... ...is to throw a few questions for you guys. And even for the people in our live stream... ...so if you have many questions... ...do throw a question at us. Or, if you are on the Junior... ...you are on any of our channels. For example, if you are on... ...I don't know which channel. If you are on the DevSG channel... ...you can go there and ask questions for us, right? So, if you have any questions about... ...how to excel... ...as a Junior developer. Or how do you... Okay, fine, that's the first question. How is your journey so far as a developer, right? I mean, I know you've been doing this... ...for a couple of years. Jacob as well, an issue. So, how is your experience now... ...like as a developer... ...compared to when you first started, right? So, basically, how is your journey like... ...and how is it different now... ...than a year or two... ...into this career? So, for me, actually, I started off with... ...as an intern. So, I didn't start off as... ...software developer at the start. So, I went to... ...become a sales rep... ...and because of that... ...after about one year later, I actually... ...thought of going to wet learning... ...using Django. So, because of that... ...for me, so far, my learning curve... ...is actually mostly on more... ...in terms of design aspects... ...all that. And also, more towards how to build... ...stuff... ...or developer practices like PDD... ...and stuff. So, the more I learn... ...the more... ...what I'm sure of myself... I'm sure of yourself, why? I'm sure of myself in terms of... ...not knowing enough lah. It's actually, there's a lot of... ...job interviews that require specific... ...skill sets like PDD... ...or understanding solid design as well. So, yeah. So, that's basically what I've been... ...going through and also... ...this year, I'm planning to learn more about that... ...to help me understand and actually... ...help me become a senior therefore... ...or CTO as well. Ya. Cool. And... Jacob! Oh! Arrow you long! So, question was... ...how... ...what was it again? Accelerate. So, what's your feeling... ...experience after doing... ...development work for a while now? As compared to the past. Ya. So, for myself, I think... ...I think I've been in development for about... ...five years. I think, I'm not sure. It's been a while. But I think at the start... ...there hasn't been much of a community. So, I think learning was a lot more difficult... ...in terms of... ...the resources in terms of... ...who to look for. And... ...over the years, I think thanks to... ...efforts from Michael... ...and also people in the community... ...that... ...it has really... ...I mean it takes a village to bring up... ...my forehead in that phase. To bring up communities. To bring up a child. So... Ya, I think thanks to those efforts that... ...at least now I find that... ...it's a lot easier for junior developers to actually... ...get into... ...development. Or even for someone who is doing a career switch... ...to get into development because of... ...this support. So, you're a web developer right now, right? So, I guess you've been doing... ...so, when you first started doing web development... ...berapa tahun lalu? 4-5 tahun lalu. Berapa tahun lalu? Seperti sekarang, kan? Jadi... ...saya rasa apabila... ...ini saya bermula... ...saya rasa apabila saya bermula... ...di sekolah sekolah... ...saya rasa apabila saya bermula... ...masuk lembaga. Tapi sekarang... ...tetika banyak hal yang terlalu banyak... ...berapa terserah... ...saya takkan kata... ...saya takkan kata... ...tetika ada banyak yang lebih susah untuk seseorang yang baru... ...sebab... ...saya ada banyak yang perlu dibuat... ...saya tak tahu apa yang perlu dibuat... ...atau jika... ...tetika ini adalah betul untuk anda. Tapi, dalam kejadian saya rasa... ...tetika ada banyak yang lebih banyak... ...tetika ada yang boleh dibuat... ...untuk anda memilih. Bagus. Dan... ...untuk masalah. Jadi, saya rasa apabila saya... ...masuk lembaga... ...saya rasa apabila saya bertanggungjawab... ...untuk diri saya. Jadi, saya tak perlu meletakkan perkara... ...saya hanya perlu... ...menjumpai perkara yang saya beritahu untuk dibuat. Jadi, apa yang saya perlu lakukan... ...saya perlu pastikan saya tak... ...saya... ...saya tak berjumpa. Tapi, apabila saya bertanggungjawab... ...awak akan tahu bahawa... ...awak tidak hanya ada untuk... ...masukkan output untuk diri sendiri. Kami mencari output untuk seseorang yang lain... ...atau sebuah pasukan. Jadi, anda membuat keputusan... ...mengetahui bahawa... ...apa yang anda lakukan sekarang... ...mereka akan membantu semua orang dalam perjalanan lama. Bagus. Jadi, ada sebuah pertanyaan yang kami lihat... ...di YouTube chat. Jadi, bagaimana anda memperkenalkan... ...keperluan... ...keperluan sebagai penyelamat... ...dan penyelamat senyum? Bagaimana perbezaan antara penyelamat... ...dan penyelamat senyum? Bagaimana perbezaan antara penyelamat... ...dan penyelamat senyum? Ya, saya rasa dia paling berkualifikasi. Ya, dia hanya menjawab. Dia hanya menjawab? Ya. Jadi, pada hari awal, dia boleh... ...menyebabkan perbezaan, tapi sekarang... ...dia akan lebih berhati-hati... ...dia akan lebih berhati-hati. Adakah itu betul? Oh, anda perlukan untuk menjadi... ...keperluan untuk banyak perkara lain. Ya, baiklah. Jadi, itu sangat bagus. Bagaimana perbezaan untuk diri sendiri? Ada sesuatu yang menyebabkan... ...saya beritahu... ...sehingga sekarang... ...di dalam... ...dari jalan projek... ...apakah kod saya bermainjur... ...apakah kemampuan yang dia melakukan... ...saya rasa penyelamatnya... ...tidak banyak... ...pengalaman... ...sebelum berjaya... ...sementara sejujurnya... ...pandangkan lebih banyak... Seseorang beritahu kita, okay, ini adalah apa yang kita perlu lakukan. Berikan saya website dan berikan saya pakaian ini dan sebagainya. Jadi, ia lebih di atas. Tapi sekarang, ia seorang senior. Saya rasa ia lebih kecil. Kamu dapat melihat projek yang sangat tinggi. Dan kita cuba memikirkan keputusan untuk itu. Ya. Bagus. Jadi, kita akan mempunyai lebih banyak periksa maklumat. Lebih baik daripada hanya memikirkan keputusan untuk kamu. Tetapi, kamu akan mempunyai lebih banyak periksa maklumat. Adakah ia sebuah periksa maklumat untuk memikirkan semua periksa maklumat? Atau bukan lebih banyak periksa maklumat? Saya telah melakukannya. Saya telah melakukannya. Selepas sekejap, kamu akan memikirkan semua periksa maklumat dan belajar semuanya. Atau, kamu akan memikirkan semuanya. Saya ingin tahu lebih banyak berapa periksa maklumat. Saya ingin tahu lebih banyak berapa periksa maklumat. Saya rasa ia sebonesia dengan kedua 맞아. Sebenarnya, daripada saya, ia terpaksa lebih banyak periksa maklumat. Mudah-mudahan, saya main periksa maklumat. Sampai ada projek yang mencubakan dan mungkin kamu akan meminta kitabergah sesuatu di periksa maklumat. Sebenarnya anda tahu bahawa saya perlu tahu perkara ini atau ini boleh digunakan dalam sebuah cara Jadi saya rasa ia lebih baik untuk mempunyai lebih banyak berat daripada menjelaskan sebuah area Sebelum hari ini, saya ingat bahawa anda tidak mempunyai jas atau javascript dan anda selesai. Sekarang, bagaimana anda mempunyai jas atau javascript? Jadi, ada banyak perkara yang anda perlu berjumpa dengan dan menjelaskan sebuah gambar yang dapat membantu anda menjadi lebih banyak pengalaman dan menjadi lebih banyak atau berjumpa dengan seorang yang beritahu anda, bagaimana saya melakukannya? Saya dalam penjualan produk. Baiklah. Dan kami hanya mempunyai penjualan untuk saya. Terima kasih. Selamat tinggal. Selamat tinggal. Seperti penjualan produk, anda melakukannya dengan penjualan. Ya, saya melakukannya dengan penjualan penjualan. Sebenarnya, dengan pengalaman penjualan dan penjualan, bagaimana penjualan yang terdapat dengan mereka? Bila saya melakukan ke-A, saya juga memperkenalkan penjualan ke-A tapi mungkin melakukan lebih banyak ke-D. Jadi, bagi saya mempunyai pengalaman penjualan dan penjualan ke-A, saya merasakan lebih banyak Kamu akan melakukan apa yang kamu tanya untuk lakukan Dan mungkin kamu hanya tanya pertanyaan Dan saya rasa kamu lebih terlalu lupa untuk kamu tanya pertanyaan daripada membuat kesalahan Tapi saya rasa juga, ia patut menjadi peluang untuk kamu belajar Dan bahkan jika, saya tahu jika orang tak beritahu kamu kenapa perkara yang telah dilakukan Dan juga, ia patut menjadi sesuatu untuk kamu ambil inisiatif untuk tanya kenapa perkara yang telah dilakukan Dan juga, ia akan jadi baik untuk para penutupi jika anda tanya mengapa anda melakukan perkara yang telah dilakukan Macam mana ia diperlukan di keadaan untuk sebuah projek Atau mungkin apakah anda akan melakukan sebuah praktis atau memilih segi Ia akan menjadi baik untuk kamu memahami Kerana ia membuat kamu menghargai keadaan untuk melakukan penutupi jika anda berada di sebuah proses Dan untuk penutupi produs, saya menurut penutupi jika anda berada di sebuah proses dikeranakan kekhargaan dengan dara untuk bekerja dengan kecuali sebuah hal. Kaya sebuah hal dengan kecuali benda principala, ialah pembalas ia akan dikeranakan kekhargaan dengan kecuali pula yang berlaku dengan resmi data, dan pilih sesuatu yang terbiasa untuk memperbaiki bisnes, atau mungkin anda memperbaiki nampak yang lebih diperbesarkan dengan dara dalam yang berlaku, atau anda mengandalkan cara men questioned You may have to change how the database is built, how the frontend is built. Usually, the more experienced software engineers have able to give better insights into decisions made on a more macro level. These ultimately help product managers and project managers to decide what direction to take the product or features. For project managers especially, how do they break it down into user stories and who they should assign the user stories to. In a way, everyone plays a part because it's whether you're a junior or senior or principal level or even CTO. Just because you may not be so experienced now doesn't mean you're no less valuable to the team. So keep on learning and have a good attitude towards being a developer. I think it's pretty good, very insightful I guess. Max? Okay, I feel the key thing is actually when you actually go to become a senior developer, you actually need to do mentoring. That's actually one key thing, you need to bring up and teach those who are lesser experienced from you. That's one thing that you need to do. One part is actually more towards the project management or higher overview. So sometimes you are required to actually deal with people who are non-technical. So you need to actually reduce your words or terminologies to the bare minimum or simple. Like how to talk to a 5 year old kid that kind of level. Or basically it's as simple as possible so that people can actually absorb it. You can't say in a way that it's too technical to the point that they don't understand. So you need to reuse it to the point that actually you are literally like a teacher to say, oh, so I'm looking for this kind of thing, like maybe I want to build a spaceship or those things. So I need to dumb it down as possible to make it easy for them to absorb because you know the technicalities of it. But some of them who are not trained in it, they may not know it and it's very hard for them to absorb the technical terminologies as well. So it's more of the development of soft skills as well. That's what I feel when you actually go towards senior developer. You will comment? It's true because especially when you're working with project managers and product managers, not every one of them will have had a background in software engineering. Or it may not even be the project managers or product managers. Even when you're working with the UX designers and researchers because especially for front-end, you get the design for the UI from the designers. And so it is better that you're able to be able to communicate with non-technical people, especially your project managers because certain things like resources like budget or how many man hours that need to be built to the client or maybe say to set a budget if it's an internal project. A lot of this has to be taken into account and so if you want to be able to justify using certain stacks or needing how many hours or how many or need to hire more people or whether certain requests are feasible or not, it is better to be able to explain it in a way that is simple enough for someone with no technical knowledge at all to understand. And so in a way it forms empathy and it's something that I think should be learnt by everyone just to make it easier for everyone to work together. And I really learned this a lot especially after I transitioned towards product management role. So ultimately it's actually you need to be very tactful when you reach a senior level you might need to be tactful in how you deal with how you phrase your words so that people may not have the wrong impression because I myself have problems in this as well because when I actually say it in a very that way they might literally mean that is actually what I mean. So that's why sometimes you need to be very tactful and you need to have the soft skills required to actually do it because if not no one wants to deal with a very arrogant person as well especially some of us if when we're actually experienced or very good at it we become very AO so that's why we do not want to... So let's go a little bit as a developer as you progress in your career what are the things you look out for to kind of like keep you abreast and you also keep you humble I think for me for example when I see new technology I'm always like wow this community this is pretty cool how do I get this thing done and I'm back to that square one again when I'm learning new things I find that joy in learning new knowledge and even experimenting new things that keeps me kind of grounded and even building up I use that opportunity always to build up my knowledge of new technologies by just doing tutorials and learning in public essentially so these are kind of things that I do to kind of keep myself grounded and relevant and abreast with the technologies I think it's something that we all have to face in this technology for you to keep abreast of the things but what are the things that you have seen work in your life as in right now in your career what are the techniques or things that you do that helps you in keeping up front or abreast of all these things Issue Okay, last time Okay, Jacob can start Ya, so I agree that the Keeping Up part is it's an absolute nightmare because there's a lot to actually read to understand in such a short amount of time because it's always it's evergreen, it's always changing so I think I actually do follow Hello Speakers on Twitter and when they tweet about something new, I'll try to look into that Oh, okay So you follow Todd Leaders on Twitter I see Yes, yes, Michael is a Todd Leader No, no, no No, in Singapore Best in Singapore! I also read on the websites so like Smashing Magazine DevTool Sometimes Reddit there's like some random chats that will talk about something new Hacker News as well I follow that quite a bit So plenty of resources there to sort of inform you of new technologies but also I think also to take note that we shouldn't be always chasing after something new because it's as I said, we are intact so it's going to be new all the time so I think it's better to just do well in whatever stack you have and then explore as needed So build a foundation in something and make that your anchor point and then from there go out and learn other things Okay, it's cool It's a t-shape engineer Yes, t-shape engineer Whatever The t-shape engineer Tell us what about the t-shape engineer What does it mean? So it's kind of like so you know how t is, right? and you have the vertical and for people who have the line check you can see So the horizontal represents breath meaning the number of skills or specialties you're in and the vertical one represents depth which means depth of knowledge or how well versed you are in that particular skill and so it's really the question of whether you're going to be a specialist or what you're going to be a mix of both So it's and I think it's what Jacob is saying because technology is constantly changing and there's always new technologies being created and coming up new stacks but there's also sadly there will be technology that will be depreciated as well or like not being supported which is always unfortunate but so it's like technology is constantly evolving like but there's always new things coming up so it's also good to constantly have this breath that grows but also don't forget to specialise in specialise in one area So for me when I try to I'm more of a web developer so sometimes I have to learn to do a little bit of as well I find that my knowledge in one area sometimes can translate there's some transferable skills I also find it very interesting that I also have like an anchor language that I always turn to in the past it was PHP and from that PHP I can learn JavaScript and when I was doing iOS it was like Objective-C and now it will be so it's like having one anchor language and from there you can use that to learn other languages along the way so cool can can come on yourself okay for me it's small to words watching youtube videos okay people like Traverse Media Chris Hawk, those are actually two of the youtubers that I actually watch and most of the time they actually are quite down to earth this is actually what I feel so when you listen to those people who are senior you'll see oh okay I shouldn't be too arrogant and also I feel that as mentioned there's another one by Reeve Hoffman he's actually the founder for Lincoln so he talked about tools of beauty so you are actually working for like 2-4 years in the specific area that you want to work with and you have an arrangement with your company and say maybe I want to work in marketing or I want to work in software development or devops you actually succeed and actually do something that can contribute to the company and after that you can actually continue it's actually oriented from how ministry works which you are deployed for like certain specific years out in a few so through different roles and from there you actually gain the practical knowledge and stuff so based on that you can actually have a good arrangement with multiple companies and see how can you grow your career and also how you can grow company in the meantime as well so that's one to make you feel grounded as well because I myself actually went through doing the sales route and actually I went to the web development route as well embarking on myself to become a tech entrepreneur as well with my business partner and all the freelancer so that is how I feel it will help you more if you look in terms of your career development on how you not be humble yourself is actually more like looking in terms of like a tool of duty so you need to specify what do you want to do for these 2-4 years and you just go for it and slowly and see how you can grow as optimally in the next 5-10 years one thing which is pretty cool but from there let's segue to something a bit more interesting I was interviewing a candidate today at my workplace and one of the things that she the candidate I interviewed that she aspire to was to be able to work with an engineering team where she can learn and grow with I think it's something that all junior developers hope for as they enjoy the company they hope for the mentorship, the mentoring the nurturing environment is there but I think on the flip side you also want to make sure that you yourself as a developer joining a team like that you can also work well with the teammates so maybe Yishu for example you work in a very large team in Karazelle so why not share a little bit more for all junior developers as they come in what kind of things they could do or what the things that they you see them do that make them more successful in adapting into the company culture and all that stuff oh, that's a tough question I mean you can just quote some examples it might be easier to quote some examples don't want to give tapes but just quote some examples quote some examples so I think within Karazelle, a lot of us are more on a peer level so we are more or less at the same experience level so I would say more junior will be the interns that we work with I think we have worked with really crazy crazy good interns that went on to do things that were beyond us so I see a lot of initiative they would ask for things that they want to do even they don't go in and say what can I do what kind of projects are there for me to do but it's rather they will look at what we are really doing and then start just bring it up probably I can work on this portion of the project or probably I can do this certain part I don't think anyone only has the bandwidth to work on it I want to take it up so I see a lot initiative move I guess from the interns so it's the sense you find you value those who do who take proactive action in their learning and their ability to perform how about Jacob what have you seen to be successful maybe you can talk about yourself when you yourself join the team one of the things we work in sb digital when you first join our team how do you think the things that you did can help make you more effective in getting into the company culture and all that so at sbd so we do a lot of pair programming so for those who don't know pair programming is basically two or more engineers, developers working on the same piece of code so one person will be doing a typing or the other person will actually be sort of like checking through to spot and so i find that pair programming actually helps a lot because that's a lot of so when you pair programming you actually do a lot of knowledge transfer so for example if i'm pair programming i'm new i'll be asking oh so what is this piece of code why is it written this way where should we look and stuff like that and that actually helps bring me up to speed a lot faster than actually sitting down looking at trying to digest and be like i'm not too sure but i mean there are times where you come pair programming so when that happens i would ask people who have worked on say that project before where should i look has this been done before what can i do to get up to speed so yeah i think that's that's how we pretty much got up to speed i think as a junior developer you're like giving it a license to to fail ask questions no we want to make sure you succeed not crash and burn but you're kind of still new to the codebase and you can ask all sorts of questions as developers in the team we should be open to you asking that kind of questions because sometimes there are times where we don't see things from your perspective like a new person joining the team you'll be for example the first person trying out the new setup script that has been there sitting in the github repo for like months and no one actually touched it whereas your codebase has actually moved on there are new things in the spin up for example you need 2 more containers to be running for your whole stack so it's like what the hell if you don't actually take initiative try it and join the team and speed up start the new getting started steps you wouldn't know it's working and being a junior person you're actually in a good place to try that and contribute to the team in terms of documentation and even improving the setup scripts but there's also this other conversation that I've seen on twitter about this thing about being a glue about you being stuck in doing a lot of these administrative things or rather your city developer you'll be doing taking minutes or you'll be the one writing documentation and there's been some people who say maybe you should as a junior developer maybe for our own personal growth which maybe refuse to take those things until you have been given that next level training or rather to just see you as a scrap goat there are always actual admin work at you so you have views about that you guys most of my interns that I've come across they are actually doing actual work but despite their smaller parts but they still do work and they are not specifically focusing purely on documentations so I think it still comes down to expectations between the intern and also the company who are actually facilitating or in charge of them on how do they assign the work if they feel that or just give you a documentation you don't need to think of any other things okay that might be good but it will be better if just you can actually dedicate certain parts of things that you can't do for me, I actually dedicated the creation of what is it? design systems because it was more well versed in the design aspects and it was doing more on the front-end side so I don't think this is very fun but I cannot do, I know time so you really need to dedicate because there are certain portions of interesting projects that you want to do but because of interest of time and also the value in terms of it might not align with what you do so it will be better if you just dedicate the work that you think is interesting enough to them and from there with my intern so I just dedicate the creation of design system for design system is basically it's just like a brand guide on how the color looks like, how the font looks like it's a way for them to unify the UI perspective so it's actually when you have a design system in place it's more like a template for whatever you can just copy and paste and just play around with it and people can actually use it and actually can do something this is useful for for companies who do not have a lot of designers as well because once you have that design system you can just give it to someone else and say, oh this is actually what I want to do and you just follow it so it will be it will improve the speed as well but it still comes down to if you don't have time sometimes it's better to dedicate certain things that you think it's interesting but you don't have the time to do it, that's basically what's my from la Rachel, do you have any opinion about that? oh it's like because so I joined a company where most of the developers were working remotely so the physical office there wasn't, so because the thing is that the company that I was in a lot of the developers were working like all over the place and the physical office usually did not have developers but it's more for those who were involved in the business or operational side of the company and so a lot of the onboarding involved a lot of documentation but of course I think for certain good practices like pipa-gramming it's a lot better if let's say everyone sits together in the office but I think also because there's an increase there's an increase in people working remotely like some I've met some company founders where the operations are completely remote so there's no physical office at all and they're still able to do business but I think in terms of onboarding a lot of good practices what I find usually assumes everyone in the office in the same physical office so I think if let's say we want to have good practices for people who are working remotely it would be good if developers can come out with that I think documentation is one way especially when there are places where people work remotely where internet access is not very good so sharing screen to video calls may not be the most optimal way but if let's say there are certain resources that may be pre-recorded kind of sessions it may help but I mean this one will depend very much on the resources available to the companies and yeah and a lot of different factors but it's something that we can explore remote work is increasingly becoming more common I mean there are so many companies that we know of that are already doing 100% remote to the company behind WordPress everyone there is a remote the company behind what's the design tool InVision Okay InVision is also fully remote so it's like quite a few companies are doing that kind of practice and then I'm sure there will be more ways to I mean there are probably a wealth of knowledge out there but I think we should probably try and see how we can help and I think there are definitely also people who are, I know of one guy who works at Automatic but he's based in Singapore and then he's like working from home once in a while he goes to a co-working space but then he's all alone but then his team is already quite quite a lot of senior people in his team like I'm not sure how well Adrenal Development will thrive in such an environment but I guess there's something to think about as well so we got a few more, two more questions that just came in from Sharon so how have you so how have you all been affected by the work from home policies and then number two how do you remain productive for a remote thing so telecomuting is a thing now because of a lot of companies we are practicing split teams or even work from home like in case of SP Digital you're encouraged to work from home you're keep away from the office so how have you all been affected and share some tips you know when it's your turn more from home it's not a new concept I've done it previously as well but so i think to answer how to remain productive I still struggle with that because when you work from home you're basically working in an environment where you usually it's in your bedroom where you sleep where you work so I actually struggle with productivity at times as well because it's kind of like you don't have to commute to work you don't have to be in the office so you get very comfortable you probably don't have to change out of your pajamas but I think to remain productive so one thing for my team at least we still did was we continued with our daily stand ups update each other on what we're doing and that kind of sets a bit of the agenda for the day so for me I kind of use that to sort of plan what I need to do within a day and of course to remain productive I still take short breaks in between walk to the mall, get a drink because if you just stay at home in the same place at least for me I'll go crazy so for me I will just split my day into smaller portions and I find that that actually helps cool Issue? Have you had a company practice that started working from home working from home so currently I'm in the teammate structure where half the company is working from home so at Carousel I've been working from home for about I think almost my work days about 20-30% done from home we don't have much concern about having just warm bodies in the office so as long as you want to be at home you can do it so I've been quite comfortable with it so what I do is that I have my workspace at home highly mimic what I have at work it's almost like replica of it an extra will enter my laptop stand, keyboard, mouse so I have like a two of everything one in office and one at home so once I get into the workspace there's no difference between I'm at home or I'm in office and then gets into that zone I feel like ya ya I'm in the work mode already so I'm working now and then also don't change my schedule from day to day I'll still be eating at the same time I'll still be getting off work at the exact same time so it feels like there's no difference at all cool interesting as for you two, you've been remote working for a while so any tips for the people out there? basically for me I do a weekly planning of what I need to do what I'm supposed to do so I'll adopt pomodoro pomodoro is a time management technique so I actually set about 10 pomodoro one pomodoro is about 25 minutes after that you have a 5 minutes break after 4 sessions of pomodoro you take a 15 minutes break so basically based on that I could actually focus at it and from then whenever I start the things at all is I need to start to go and do work okay I just need to break so that's basically how I plan my week that's cool having a chat group and also some project management software helps a lot as well because you can tell oh this is actually what we're doing this is some problems I face communication is very important that's why I feel it's important and also in terms of remote work you should have some discipline in it because it takes a while for you to actually get used to it mostly in terms of how you start your day as you should know you need to have your schedule for me it's more like I really need to do my planning and other things so time management is important and also those are things I have so time management having a rhythm having a defined start even having the same setup at your workspace at home and work so that lets you get into that zone sometimes for me I also change into my work clothes at least a shirt so that answers let's not go there so I'll change my polity or something just to get myself into that zone fortunately for me I have a study room so I get into my study room and I have my keyboard and mouse and my stand so it's pretty much the same setup so I still feel I can be productive in that place and also having a defined rhythm of lunch and time to go out so that's all really good advice I hope Sharon can learn something from this or learn something from each other cool and actually with that thanks a lot do you guys have any last words for our viewers out there wash your hands stay safe, stay healthy and take subscribe to the engineer actually make the bell and also I think we have our mentoring and issue don't be too scared it's okay cool and Sharon just say thanks cool