 Hey everyone, Robert Van Donga, part of IntellectU for almost three years now, leading the business development services for the EMEA region. Let's kick off. Yeah, so today we want to talk about programmable money. I heard some earlier sessions talking about CBDC and the use for CBDC and programmability. Well, we've built something that is live, so welcome to hear the explanation of a project that has evolved. So a little bit about CBDC, who are we? We are mainly in Central Europe, also based in Ireland. We sold that, so that's winding down. But nevertheless, we service 12 million customers, we have 40,000 employees and we have more than 1200 bank branches. So that's us, we're mainly a retail bank, so we're not the best at banking, poking retail and insurance. That's CBDC. What do we do? We have the best banking app in the world. It has been shown by an independent or investigation by CF partners. And what is helping of being the best banking app in the world? We have Kate, our digital assistant. She helps you to save time and money. We have already over 1 million customers, so she's actually a digital assistant, which can help you and which can guide you through everything that you need proactively also. And today, we also extended that with Decadecoin. And that's the program of money. That's what we will be talking about today. Thank you. And short introduction about IntellectU. We are a digital finance and emerging technology company. We were founded in 2007. We are globally active. We have over 300 employees globally, and we have offices in Belgium, Poland, Ukraine, Portugal, and the United States. And as I said, we started in 2007 as a more traditional finance company. We were mainly focused on integrating back of the systems with different payment drills for financial institutions, market infrastructures, and regulated companies globally. And then in 2007, we became a founding member, sorry, we became a partner of SWIFT. And then fast forward a couple of years in 2014, we started delving more into distributed ledger technologies. We were working with Ripple and Ethereum, but we realized soon that our customer base being at large financial institutions really were not very interested in public blockchain at that point in time. So we shifted our focus to private permissions technology. In 2016, we became a founding member of the Hyperledger Initiative under the Linux Foundation. And then in 2017, we started working with Corda from Rtree. We started working with Digital Asset Mulling Language from DA and throughout the years, we continued that work. We launched a project, a product called the blockchain platform which supports Hyperledger Fabric and supports Corda. And then in 2019, 2020, we realized our target market financial institutions started looking back into public blockchain technology. So we, as of them, also started using Adera, started using Algorand, consensus technologies, Avalanche, etc. Thank you, Ropt. So actually, we were a founding partner of SWIFT. But all the rest that you saw on technologies that we do not have that fast experience. So that's why we worked together with IntellectDue to help us to make this a reality. You're a bank. Well, sometimes you're more perceived also as a technology company, but many more a bank. What's the main business of bank payments? We all know payments. Who thinks that payments, if you want to do a domestic payment, if you want to pay within your company or your country, who thinks that it's difficult to do a payment? Oh, domestically. You see some hands. Change, there goes my narrative. Because I wanted to say, like, today payments is for us, maybe they're not using the KPC Banking app. You can switch to the KPC Banking app. What's the... We as a user, doing payments is not that difficult. You have a bank account, you've given another bank number and your payment is done. Whoever got it for domestically, who experienced that the payment did not arrive? Domestically. Domestically. Not internationally. Because part of something else. Domestically, it works. And we're so used to it that it works. But what we do not see is everything that applies behind. And that's that you have different institutions, you have different companies. Payments are going from one to the other. You have to do reconciliation. You have the risk of the payment, not the risk of corrective actions that you have to do. Also you have limited offers. Anything that you want to do with a customer, you have to do that first and then afterwards you do the payments. We always talk about internationally. The transaction has two legs. The business transaction leg and the payment leg. You see a lot of things on blockchain that are the business transaction leg. And we hear often, if we could have money on the chain, we can also include that. And that's what we're really focusing at. It's not so much to the end user, but it's old processes that use money to make that more efficient. And to give the users also less administration, clarity and business. Why is that? Because you often have, that's what I will come to, sometimes you have money that is restricted to certain items. If you get a coupon or if you get a grant from the government or if you get a car loan, you need to buy a car. There are a lot of checks that have to be done at the end. Also you have to be limited to invoices, et cetera. So you have administration. Can we solve that? And this is actually the business problem and then that's the difficult part of the blockchain. Is technology a solution? Why can technology be a solution? If you look at the traditional payments, you always have these two legs. You have to go out, you have to go through the Swift network or the payment rails or whatever. And then you have PSD2 and you have to do two factor authentication. All these financial rules, they come together, they come on your head, you outsource that to the payment service provider, you say, okay, I will connect to pay transaction fee and you can do your payments. But in the end, you get the payment, you need to reconcile your business transaction with payment. So there is the work for the service provider to do that work. What if we can bring the coin also on closer to the business transaction? If you can do, and that's what they call in the financial terms delivery versus payment, if you can bring those two closer together, you have more certainty about the handling of your business transaction, including the payment, skipping the work afterwards of reconciliations, rectifications, etc. Extra, if you use blockchain smart contracts, you can program around it. So that's why we think that payments can be enhanced with program on money. Let's take some use cases to see where we use it. The first one, those who are from Belgium, they know Werchter, maybe also others who are from Europe. A large festival, we had a special KBC square with 8,000 employees where we used the Kate coin, our own coin to do transactions. So you can buy food with your Kate coin and you see here the transaction log and we are a fan of Stromae, I don't think maybe others are a fan of Stromae, but we were, you can definitely see that. So you can go, you see the transactions during the concert, they lowered, we did at a certain point, we had a peak of 180 transactions per second, which is quite nice, we did some 40,000 transactions. So that was the first production setup that we test, where we tested at the coin, closed environment, KBC employees. Now it came in the press and the reaction was, why do you use blockchain? Can't you use a database? You can do this with a database, yes, but extensions that we are working on is you can steer behavior, and your behavior not only for the user, but also for instance for the supplier. Somebody who has a food stand and he sees that I have an inventory pile of this much and the festival will be over at the end of the day, I will give a discount. If you can push towards the users some coins that they get a discount, you can have the coin funded by the supplier, you push that to the user, the user pays, you know, you don't have any settlement afterwards. So that's how it works with the prepaid coin. You can also do splits of payments if you have like a food truck, but you have to pay for the food truck has to be paid by the organizer. You can split the payments immediately. I won't go into the tax deduction and all that on the VAT, but these are possible with smart contracts. When for the customer, I wanted to go to Stromai, but there was a long line behind the French fries, but the falafel stand was empty. You can say, okay, I push coins to those who want the falafel, so we can go closer, faster towards the concert. You can do sponsorships and say, okay, this is nice. I as a sponsored Red Bull, I will push one Euro coin, gate coin to every user and you get a discount if you buy a Red Bull. It's a happy hour, but everything is settled. You don't have to go count in the database, hey, how many transactions were there between 9.35 and 10.35? It's all immediately handled. One use case, second use case in the energy. The energy, we have the shift, the energy transition, where we go from centralized systems to decentralized systems. Your solar panels, they're part of a decentralized system. If you go charge your car with your neighbor or your friend, you have a decentralized system. So you get this system where the energy is produced decentralized and consumed decentralized. What do you get? A lot of transactions and also microtransactions. If you go charge your car, like for one hour, you pay like, I don't know, 0.52 cents. Probably it's more these days. But this is the concept where you also can look, okay, what if we use programmable money? And you can have several wins also for the customers because if you get an invoice at the end of the month with 17 pages of annex with all your microtransactions and you will be disputing one, for instance. If it's prepaid, you do your transaction, you get immediate confirmation of your transaction that you paid and you have at that point the transaction is settled. No invoice, you get an invoice formality, but no invoice at the end of the month. It also goes the other way around within the energy system that in turn, if you have an electrical vehicle, your car battery will delivering power to the grid. You get paid. But with a coin, you have these coins that you spent and you have coins that you received. And at the end of the day, you can see, okay, I have spent so much coins or I have earned. Win for the suppliers, also the experiment that we did. You have the mobility service provider delivering a service. You have a charge pool operator delivering the energy. You have KBC settling the transactions. Each transaction was split into three. So every party already got their money. And that's a win for the producer because today the producer sends an invoice to the mobility service provider with three months' payments, three weeks of payments notice, and he will only get paid one month later. So he has to wait two months for his money. Here he immediately gets his money. Win for the operators. We're looking at, can you give a machine a wallet? That might be interesting things that we can do because in the energy sector that you have machines delivering power, receiving power, can we give machines a wallet? Okay, third use case, flex. What is flex? Flex or flexible checks for customized text-friendly salary in Belgium. There are several ways that you can have salary which is text-friendly, but you can only use it at certain items. And what they want to do is to make this flexible that an employer can actually program for his employees checks. If you say it's going to be a very hot week, I'm going to give my personal some coins to go spend in some water park, some amusement park. Or you can say, okay, I give checks for food only. Or we had corona, I'm going to give a homeworking bonus, but you have to spend 50% on homeworking material. So if you go buy your seventh pair of shoes, the system says no. You have to buy a keyboard or something else. You can program that into your coin. If you don't do that and you give such a bonus, I have to go to shopping. I send my invoice to HR department. They will probably open an Excel. We're a big company, probably will automate. You will open an Excel, you add that, and they have to follow up. You get this huge, you get in clarity, no transparency. Here you will have the transparency. That's the app that we are building. We're going live in the pilot end of this year, beginning of next year, we will be doing a MVP with city, large city in Belgium, where 1,200 employees will get monthly of these checks to spend on programmed material. A lot of wins here. Also for the employer, the traceability, because the tax authorities, they want to be sure that there's no fraud. Blockchain delivers to prove that there's no fraud, because every transaction is locked on the blockchain. It can prove it was for this category. It didn't exceed the 50%, for instance. Also, when for the suppliers, you can already have the split of the payment, for instance. We are the custodian, also for the employer that's important. Flex is a fintech, it's a small company, but we are issuing the coin. So the collateral, I'll come back to that later. So we are guaranteeing the value of the coin. It's one euro. And the employer can be flexible in the way it pays customers, pays the employees their salary. So second case, what was the third case? Fourth case, this is our Kate coin. This is the magic that we're doing ourselves. So that's what I say, drink your own champagne. We're trying to do that. For instance, how can you get Kate coins? If you take a bike insurance, you get Kate coins and you can spend them on a particular product. Some of the coins that you earn, you can spend them on different products. But some of the coins are programmed that if you open a bank account, you get coins, but you can only use them for a bank insurance, for internet insurance. That's how we can influence customer behavior. Of course, we also want to get better out of it. We're still a commercial company, but that way you can see which products can you promote, which not, and can we also drive the customer behavior. And that's what you can do with the programmability. This is how we use it internally. For our internal customer and internal products. So we're not really working with money here. When does the money part come in if we include other parties within the KBC ecosystem? We have a lot of parties in our country that are working with KBC. And we could, for instance, use, and here coming back to our mobile app and Kate, we have 1.8 million users. And if you have a company that wants to do a product launch, it might become interesting. Because if you say I want to launch a product, take any of these large manufacturers, and we can use Kate to give messages to customers, like, hey, Dirk, you get Gillette coins, because they know from the 1.8 million people we can offer that service, that if you give the coins to all mail between 25 and 35, I'm not 35, you can get a coin to buy Gillette razor blades. And what we do here is we give that power to the manufacturer. The coin is programmed. You can only use it on that. So it's like you know the voucher that you're cutting out but if you know how the processes of these vouchers is paper-based, it's a lot of work, a lot of reconciliation, et cetera. So this is how we connect our customers towards manufacturers. So that's something that we are elaborating right now. Okay. How does it work? We call it architectures. How does it work? So we, Katecoin is one euro. That euro goes onto a KBC bank account. It's a collateral account, so that's where the money will stay. There's no volatility. You cannot gamble with the coin. It won't go up in value. If you want to redeem the coin, you get one euro back. KBC does that guarantee. So if you compare to a CBDC, the only thing that's different is that we are not a central bank, but we are a trustworthy bank. We guarantee that the euro is there. We issue the coins, and then we have our blockchain network where we have KBC and we have ourselves as a reward validation of the conditions and we have our business network where you can use the coin, you can earn coins, and if you want to spend the coin, the coin-based payment, you have a verification of the condition. I'll come back to that later. And the business network, for instance, they can fund the coin, and this is how this is a closed loop. You cannot leave it, but you have multiple parties on the blockchain. If we look at the second case, the case that I talked about, the flex, this is actually a white-labeled coin. This is not a gate coin. This is a coin that we can program for anybody else. Here you have the same circle. Here it's the employer that funds the coin because he wants to give it to his employees. He funds the coin. The euro is going to an account, so there's no risk against flex because we hold the money. The coins are distributed to the employees who then can spend it, and you have the conditions that are verified. The supplier, the retailer, will receive the coins and can convert the coins into euro. Again, a closed system. So this is how it basically works, and what we then have built is this backbone. On top of that, we can have different business engines, different closed-loop systems where the money cannot leave. Some of the reasons are guiding principles that we took for building the system. On business side, there has to be an open ecosystem. We don't want, not that we're there yet, but we don't want KBC having the blockchain behind the doors of KBC as a SaaS because then you can use a database. So we want the nodes to be on other places. We want transparency also towards users, so we want some information that is distributed across the nodes. Technical, we want it to be interoperable because we want to work together with other systems to get the business transactions. Scalable and robust, if you want to go microtransactions. We're working with different channels in Hyperledger, also for the scalability on that level. Programmability, I think, that speaks for itself, and this is of course an important aspect, the regulation. We have to comply with GDPR, AML, but we are a closed loop, so that's okay. GDPR, we don't store data on the chain, so we have private data collections, privacy by design, we're a trusted issuer. So the money is still with us. There's always a claim against us. So these are some of the guiding principles that we took there. One last thing on decentralization. Today, the nodes are still in KBC, but we want to distribute the nodes, so we want to have a business network where also a node is running. I say here bank network. Today it's KBC, it's not said that other banks cannot join, but there we will have a rulebook. We have two types of smart contracts, the settlement smart contract and the smart contract of the business itself. These smart contracts run on every node. So there already you have the power of decentralization that your transaction is distributed. We as KBC, we cannot program that the business transactions are changed. The business entity that's running in the node cannot influence the settlement smart contract. So all transactions are locked on that level. So that means actually that we have two kinds of decentralization, one of the settlement, secondly of the business transaction, because it's the business network also that have to grow and can grow. There's a question mark on the device choice. Private key is not on the device. Can the user choose which application to use, which app to use to pay. Today it's we're not there yet. That's also something that has to evolve because of regulation and mainly regulation. So we're looking at Mika, we're seeing what's coming from there, but we're trying now to already take some steps maybe to define how it could work to have controlled risks, et cetera. So that's for, this is a summary where are we working on today? If you look at decentralization, you have programmable money, as I said, and the business transaction. If you use a database, one of the two, it's not used to use blockchain. If you use the node that is running at an other premise, I call it technical decentralization because what you do is you put your node outside of the KBC organization but the rulebook is still defined by KBC. So we're still in charge of the rulebook. The same goes for the business network. If you have a business network that has a node with another party, it's okay, but you still have one operator of the rulebook. So you have your transactions are still okay. They're on the blockchain, they're locked, they're immutable, they're proof of the truth, but your involvement of your smart contract is only done by one party. If you open that up and you have the business decentralization, we include other banks. Together with other banks, we decide on the smart contract on the chain code of the settlement. Then we're here. Then you need a consortium. Same goes for the business network. This is the hardest part where we have difficulties to reach that level, but that's how we look at it today and where we want to try, at least not to be here, also not from the business side. We do not want to be just another payment channel. Then go to payments with the current payments business. We want to offer programmable money. If we want to offer programmable money, we're into the business transaction because they're together with the settlement transaction. Then we want you to do this at least and use it yourself because you have an immutable trace of your transactions. So we also want to kind of educate our business partners in what blockchain can mean for them. Well, at least that's what I try. Okay. So for conclusion from my side, what we have, Katecoin, we can have programmability. We are the partner that brings in the trust. We can steer customer behavior. That's because we also want to put it in the market as a B2P solution for the white labeled one. You can then start thinking of new services because that's what it can bring, but it's a different mindset. You don't have to talk about and doing my stuff in my database. You have to do a payment. You have to integrate them. You have to go talk within your ecosystem with their partners. So to look, how is my business running? What can I do better for my customers, including other partners so I can save on the settlement side? So that's what we are bringing and our message then is always what coin can we program for you and how we do that running and programming that Robert will explain how we did that. This is a little bit more technical side because that's not my field of experience, but that's Robert's one. So this is the KBC showcase and now Robert will explain how we all did that. Thank you, Didik. And thanks for showcasing the result of almost two years of fruitful collaboration. And part of that fruitful collaboration includes Catalyst Blockchain Platform. So thanks for that. As I mentioned earlier, Catalyst Blockchain Platform is the brainchild of years of work and expertise on using hyperledger fabric. Really what we set out when we started building Catalyst was enabling organizations to reduce the time and the resources that they're spending, deploying, managing, maintaining blockchain applications and networks and instead give them back that time to build value-adding applications. So some of the use cases where Catalyst Blockchain Platform is being used, of course the programmable money platform we talked about that extensively. We have a Know Your Customer platform with a consortium of banks. We have an inventory management and invoicing platform in the wholesale taco space, digital share registry platform and supply chain platform in pharma, et cetera. Now, what are some of the main functionalities and features of Catalyst Blockchain Platform? So we have the unified management and operations console so you can access through the UI, you can access all the typical functionalities that you would using hyperledger fabric so you can manage your network, you can set up your MSP IDs or your nodes, your peers, your orders, et cetera. Upload your chain code, et cetera, stuff you can do that through the user interface. Catalyst is fully cloud agnostic and supports multi-location deployment. So whether you want to set up using a cloud provider, using bare-metal infrastructure, a hybrid setup, as long as there is Kubernetes or OpenShift, you can deploy Catalyst and you can set up your fabric network. Then we have reliability and disaster recovery. So we have out-of-the-box integration with managed databases, et cetera, simplified migrations between versions. You name it. Of course, the monitoring and logging is important both on the technical and the business side. We can perform that monitoring and again, either the out-of-the-box solution for doing that or connecting to existing monitoring tools that may already be in place. Then on the bottom left we have the support and SLA so we provide expert support teams to support the Catalyst Blockchain platform installment for customers looking to provide that 24-7 in 2023. And all of this is available either through the intuitive user interface or through API connectivity. This is a bit of an overview. Derek, you called it market texture. I like it, so I'm going to steal it. The market texture of Catalyst Blockchain platform, you can see the users can either connect through the user interface or the API connectivity. And then lastly, how is Catalyst adding value to the programmable money platform of KBC so the simplified interaction and the communication within the blockchain network all the functionalities for deployment, configuration of all the different components, etc. in one place. The access enhancement for the different APIs for the peers, the CAs, the orders, etc. The easier smart contract execution and the updating and the managing thereof. The managing and protecting of sensitive data, certificates, the API encryption keys, the passwords, etc. And then lastly, the one time setup configuration for your certificates, your environment variables, your command arguments, etc. And that is it from the Catalyst Blockchain platform from IntellectU. Any closing remarks, Dirk? Happy to welcome any questions if there are. Awesome. Thanks everyone for attending. Yes. I'm going to repeat the question for those who are watching online. So the question is whether the user can choose which coins to use, whether there's picks for them directly. For the moment, they have to pick by themselves. Well, yeah, if you end up there that you can for instance define yourself how the logic would go that you can say, okay, choose whatever is best for me, use the coins if you can use a coin. So that's the intention. We're not there yet, but that you can use the Gillette coin and then it will take all the euros, but because what you also have, and we're still not there yet, because today you have this system of meal vouchers, which is already electronic, but they're a traditional payments system, so we will have to see how we can combine them, because you want, in the end, you want one unit of work. You want all transactions being executed and final, or you will have to go work with the reservation system. One of the other options could be we're not there yet, because I'm working in innovation, so I have these wild RDS. Now we have the architects hours in the room here, who goes or don't know what he's thinking about. And then we also have legal and compliance, they also get a headache of me. What you do is you tokenize euros. If you tokenize traditional meal vouchers, you tokenize everything, and then you have the smart contract executing everything at once, you're sure of the finality, because that's actually what we stand for. As a bank, we want to be everything final. So that's what we have in mind, but we still have to work on that and test that, because you have these flags, you saw that. You can have flags, you can have Kate coin Gillette, you can have meal vouchers. So why not combine them? But in the end, if I hear that CBDC will also one new type, will be accustomed to different types of digital coins. You also have Ether and you also have Bitcoin, so why not we might end up in a situation that you're just using anything that you have. You can maybe pay with kilowatt hours, if you want, because the one who is in front of you says, okay, I'm shorting kilowatt hours today. And the reason, and this is funny, because I don't want to go back to the trade where we used to be. Yeah, but the cow it's not that convenient, but everything is digital now. It's at our fingertips. It's not easy. It's just an app. You do the conversion and you have it. So actually trade of digital assets it's becoming more and more easy. So we might end up there, because today we talk about payments, doing a payment. It's been a while and I'm not living in Hamas, so I had some Bitcoin and I sold them via the Kraken account. I got an email. Congratulations on the purchase of your euros. I did not sell Bitcoin. I purchased euros. So we're getting in these exchange modus. I can pay you with Apple shares. It takes a week to do that today. If you do that on FTX, you can do it split second. So this is the mindset that we try to get into, because if you look at Facebook, the youngsters, my daughter, my sons, they're watching on their screen. They don't know what's against your wall at your home, but they know what's on their screen. And they use these apps and they flip from Snapchat to Instagram to Facebook, whatever. So they use to it. So if they use one app for Ethereum, another app for Gatecoin, another app for CBDC, they don't mind. But if we can enable to combine them, we can have an extra service to them. Yes. Okay. The ideas live like if you go to machine wallets that you could store the private key on machine level, but we're not there yet. Today it's server side. Yes. Well, for Gatecoin, it's our bank app. But for Flex, so the extra legal salary, there's an app of the supplier, of our partner. So it's not our app. But today you can only access from one app. Yes. It won't work. Policy. Yeah, it's policy. So every, because we have an audit, a daily audit that the number of coins on the blockchain equal the money on the collateral account. If there's discrepancy, then we have to find out. So we cannot mint more than there are euros on the collateral account today. I'm innovation manager. I got, I got the feedback from legal. I said like it's a stable, no, no, it's not a stable coin because stable coin is not 100% cash. So if you take 1% bonds, is it a stable coin? So just saying things evolve. We have to see how we go, how we act on that. Because you see Circle is issuing your C in Europe under US legislation. And we're looking at it like, okay, what's happening? What does it mean to us? That's not that we want to have issues today. We do not want to issue stable coin on public blockchain. But you have to see what's going on and what the customers are looking for and how we can service them. We still have the advantage that we're in a regulated environment. We have to follow the law. We are, I think the maybe next to food or health, I don't know, we're heavily regulated. So everything we do also, if we advise our customers, they come to us because we know the legislation. I asked, like, flex, if they go to Coinbase and they go to Circle, can they do the same what they're doing today? No, they cannot because of this, this, and this. Okay, so we have a USP. Our unique selling point is that we're regulated. We're doing things how they should be done. And also, when Mika is coming into force, we'll be closely looking at okay, what will be the playing field? How can we position ourselves in there? Because if they say that, that's how I understood Mika today, stable coins have to be issued by a financial institution and will become regulated by the EMD-PSD-2. So the electronic money directive, then we're good because we comply and all the rest is not complying today. So that's what we have to watch. But we stick to one euro for one coin. No scarcity. Yes. In my I don't know whether it's a dream or idealistic or realistic vision. And that's how we always envisioned blockchain. If you have more banks, you have a consortium. That's okay. But let them do the governance of the business rules. Leave out technology. Keep the technology in the different parties, but you need some central organization that does the standards and the business rules. That's how I see it. If there are other banks doing that, that's okay. But let them define these business rules. But today, for instance, in Belgium you have bank contact. They're running the payments, the payment gateways, their organization running IT, et cetera, et cetera. We have Isabel, also for major an institution launched by four major Belgian banks. But they also have systems. And the parties, the intermediaries today, that's what I like, for instance, by DTCC. They really understand what blockchain can mean for them also as a role of a central party because they are a central actor. If the central actor succeeds into understanding what the power of blockchain is, then they can have a lot of added value. But they need to go through that phase. And then it's politics. It's not about it's a certain point. It's politics if other banks join. How can you get that message passed on? And how can you get that governance that they're really only looking at the business rules? What I said in the beginning, when you started with blockchain in 2016, everybody's looking at Swift because Swift is intermediated. And I thought that the best thing that Swift can do is focus on standards. If there's one thing that's good at that standard, make blockchain is not a purpose on itself. But you can enforce standards with blockchain. So if you take that power of enforcing business rules with parties, then you have a very strong tool. The path to get there, they don't have the answer. Because I heard several times already banking consortia, I leave the banking out, consortia. It's not easy. It is not easy. We're in several consortia and it's not easy. But it's a certain point I think we'll have to because the other space, the public blockchain space is evolving. If there comes regulation all the existing players which are today we consider them as cowboys but if they comply to regulation they're competitors. So somehow we will have to see how we level up. Yeah, that's the meaning again of the customer behavior to get an expiry date that you can say to push one month before. You have coins that will have an expiry date in weeks and we can do some nice offers. But also in the festival. Now it's programmable. So when upon issuing the coin the date is then fixed. Yeah. Go ahead. Yeah. Today yes. But we are planning to have a note outside of KBC. Yeah. That's what I'm for the moment by ourselves because we have not planned to engage other banks for the moment. So that will be the first step. Possibly. I'm looking at my architect right now. I'm more the business guy. Yeah. Yeah. Scalability is definitely a challenge because we really if we want to use this in a retail environment we're talking about high amounts. So that's why the scalability robustness needs to be okay. Yeah. The PII is held in the private data collections and only the hash and the amount is on the blockchain and only visible for the parties that are included in the transaction. It depends how many parties are in the transaction. And now it's mainly two. They're on the private data collection. The data. So it's not on blockchain and the private data collection is at the at the premise of the of the partner. Yeah. That depends on the business engine. So the business engine defines what you can do with the tokens for the not transferable although we're looking into it because if you're talking about inheritance or then we have to see what we have to do with that but it's not for peer-to-peer payments so that depends on the use case also for the I think for the flex case it's non-transferable because it's attached to you as a person. That's your salary. I know that there are things that are transferable but enforced into transaction depending on if you leave the company you can take the coins with you but also if there is a if you buy something and you take it back you get a refund so you have transfers in opposite ways but not transferring as an end-user action is not in there so that depends on the use case. And if we stay if we don't do that if we don't have the ability it's much easier from compliance perspective for AML because you have a closed circuit and the money cannot it's clear where the money gets in it only gets in at one point no more questions? Thank you very much for the attendance. If you want to talk with the people of catalyst they're third floor? Yes. So they will explain you. Thank you.