 This is the build OGM call for Tuesday, September 28, 2021. Pete, so I was just sharing with Stacy that Jim Rutt said yes to fund OGM to the tune of $25,000 yesterday. I was explaining sort of the use of funds on that and I had stuff I wanted to sort of dig into on that front, but I but I was also hitting a point that I think I need to spend more time on. I did one video a while back called I have a hunch I'm having a unique experience here, which is the experience of feeding a consistent persistent one a single mind map right. And one of the reasons I feel like that the big fungus is even sort of doable and not in a single tool but one of the reasons I think it's doable and interesting and valuable is this curation of a single object. And I think I underestimate how little other people necessarily understand it or, or see the difference and, and I, I feel that every time I hear people planning what to do about knowledge management or personal knowledge this or whatever. There's always little bits and snippets separately and always and always like starting from scratch and then and then sort of the disposability, the final image. It's not that the final image isn't isn't woven into a useful context to return to later and make better. The final map or whatever it is is mostly disposable. Good morning Mark. How are you doing any warming up. Yes. I'm, what did you say about the object that sounded absolutely interesting to share the object. They're disposable. So I'm riffing on the fact that I've been feeding one month one map for 20 years, and that that's a different experience from creating disposable maps however, however useful the maps are in the moment. When you do a map and go that was awesome and then put it away. And never to return to it even in many cases right. That's just a different experience. I mean, this morning for some reason, what provoked it. April and I were talking and she said the phrase one hit wonder. I'm like oh I think I have that in the brain. So, so in five minutes I sat down I'm like, gosh, I have one trick pony but I don't have one hit wonder. And that's all about one right. So, yeah, there we go. So, so in five minutes I did this. Right, so one click purchasing the one acre fund. One man plays one punch man the one room schoolhouse one take one shot movies. One Cartoon's the one drop rule your black if you have one drop of black ancestry that's interesting one dimensional man by marcusa, etc. So that, you know that was five minutes of curating stuff that I you know, one page wonders is one pager types of website which is in parallax scrolling, and has a bunch of stuff. And this experience is not normal. Right. And, and, and, and, and either I'm off on a fantasy trip about how interesting and useful this is, or. Oh thank you see. And if you all want to suggest more ones I'll make sure I either have them or add them. I'm not realizing I have to add the singularity under one, because it's like everything collapses into one spot right. Monotheism part monotheism very good. See, so simple. Hang on. So one stop shopping. Let's see if I have one stop shopping. And if I don't I add. Now I have things that are one stop shops but I don't have one stop shopping so I'll add it now. So top line I see at least two things there Jerry one of them is curating on a topic. Right. And then another thing is having a persistent knowledge store that you're that's helping you curate that it looks like you did a lot of like there's a lot of Wikipedia pages there so it looks like you did a lot of curation rather than gardening your existing knowledge base. Not sure how you mean. So a lot of the pages you see here we're already in my brain like all all this collection right here is is me typing one into the search bar and then going oh that one fits oh that one fits oh that one fits and finding things that were already in my in my brain. So one quick purchasing can be connected to one stop shopping because they're sort of different sort of similar but sort of different but they're kind of cool together. Monotheism sorry. Can you say what you just said. Well, so I can, I, you know I can compare and contrast with with my experiences and so I think the thing that's different is not when you can because I do something like this all the time right so my the brain is the web. Instead of it's not something that I've curated it's something that you know that exists to me in kind of a similar way I think being able to pull together a bunch of stuff is something I do all the time. Something that I don't do all the time is have a network of a mind map a connected mind map that's persistent over time. Right. For example Pete I've seen you do rapid and fabulous research on 1000 topics, but those are posted to emails that disappear into the bit bucket on a private mailing list for example they're not they're not integral. Well the demonstration that you've got here I think is it's more it's fairly similar to what I do. It's not. I don't. There's a uniqueness here, a component of uniqueness with the utility of your mind map I think something that is a lot more like unique to you is when you can do a tour through the brain. This is connected to this this is connected to this this is connected to this and you know you're you're lighting up memories in your what what brain. You can tell a story that you own. So I don't do that I can't do that because I don't. I don't own. I, you know actually related a really interesting thing I'm using a, or I'm trying a browser plugin that sits next to your Twitter, and it's supposed to be. It's a tweet helper or something like that it's it it shows you related tweets to the things that you're looking at the things that you're searching lexically, lexically similar. So one of the things it does is it knows all of your past tweets. So it's it's showing me stuff from, you know, two years ago five years ago, eight years ago. And I'm like, wow, you know that's a really smart thing to say really, really, really observant really brilliant or something like that, you know and it's stuff that I've I tweets that I've written over the over the years that I have no idea that they exist right and there's no, there hasn't been a good way for me to to travel back through my history of tweets, you know, even though there's a lot of amazing stuff in there. So that's so you you you are able to take those tours. And, you know, walk through walk down memory lane, and it's not easy for me I have to construct it out of using a post or use that searches or Twitter searches or So in the early days of once one trip thing and I'll go to you mark on fun. In the early days of the Google I remember doc saying that he used Google as his memory. So that he was writing everything on his blog. He was an A list blocker so he got a lot of families. So when he was thinking of something he'd written he would just use Google and he would his would be the first tip that showed up, but really only because he was an A list block. Like, so, so I used to do that. Yeah, I used to do that all the time on on community and I still do actually. If I if I'm looking for everything as a project. So what I do to find it is type into Google, everything is a project that's really interesting. So, so you all know about the site operator on Google, right, you can tell Google and look for this word on this site. Right. Yeah, it's absolutely worth setting that up for your own sites so you have indexes to your writing. I think it's more thrilling when you can just search the web and find it. Please, please. Yeah, please do. I'm trying to just name what you're doing here. It is interesting. Because there's a lot of tools that allow you to have instant wedge web maps, right say, what are all the, like, the world itself, of course, but also I'm thinking of something like carrot that moreover does clustering. What I'm doing here is kind of give me. I'm relating by hand, those sites to a concept. And this is not a sense making that it's a gathering right, but it gives me an intersection between this concept one and things I've already thought important. So it's a kind of intersection of my interest history and search for that concept, which is, as I said, very different from a sense making map, where you would say, okay, let me look at all these ones. And what is the idea of oneness that may emerge out of that and let me curate a subset of that and explain why it's a relevant subset and, you know, for transmission which is much more work. There's all this wonderful stuff that Mark Caranza does for with a kind of brain dump tool, but that is not for public consumption and for private, you know, my own sense making versus public sense making. In between, there's the kind of gathering before you even sense making and gathering, are you doing it on the web or stuff you've collected or stuff you've written. And these are filters on any of those, right. Yeah, gathering is a. And what I showed you right now this one thing I did in five minutes just for kicks and it was interesting. It's not the most interesting use case here at all. This isn't just a form of gathering. It's a form of concern is of opinion making and framing and policy shaping and it's a consistent form of, and not just finding something I wrote before Pete, which is interesting in itself, I get it. But what I'm saying is probably always want to go through a phase of gathering before you prune it and sense make out. Oh, for sure. For sure. And these are stages and they're important you do need the gathering and you do need the pruning and you do need the shaping it for for external consumption these are three stages. And of all these three stages you can apply it to the web stuff I find interesting stuff I've written. And these are this is a kind of orthogonal filter on these three stages. And I'm just trying to, as I said, name what I'm seeing. Not yet making a theory out of it this is a gathering stage. But it seems to me that there's something to be gained by being systematic about this because I would like to be able to say okay, I'm in the operation of pruning what I've gathered, or subsetting and how does that help me do the sense making and the packaging curating for public consumption because these are stages, and they need different references. Yeah. And Pete, you said one thing way long ago I think sort of near the start of GM that I would love to have done more and I just said having made a habit. But but I think your observation was that when I'm explaining things while you're watching the brain go by it's actually much more powerful than just trying to randomly make sense of the brain by yourself that my narration and my storytelling and knowing what the skeletons are buried and what the paths are matters a lot. And I totally agree. And one thing I might have done was do it like a video day, and just do. So so sit at the end of the day and reflect back on today what was the most interesting thing that I put in my brain or ran across, and then do a two minute like screencast and just post that. I think that would be interesting because because I do have a tiny habit. I don't do this often enough either. I do have a tiny habit of on Twitter, just posting a short kind of teaser ish tweet with a link to one specific interesting thought in my brain. And it might be a topical thought about an event of the day. It might not it might be just like I love the thought isn't right so I think a couple times over a long period of time I've said, isn't you know in context. And so somebody can like scroll through and go oh my god lots of isms. But there are things that show up for me that don't show up in a Google search. I mean, just, I'll just give another example. I went to Trump's favorite tactics here's Trump's playbook as far as I can tell. Play dumb pay half pay half what you owe somebody and dare them to sue paint the worst possible picture of the present blah blah blah. Darvo dog whistle politics, gas lighting, etc, etc, all of which are tactics that other people used, but it's kind of. I've been adding to this for a while, right, right, certainly since the presidency instances candidacy. And this did let me just see when I put in Trump's favorite tactics just in the chronology of Trump's life 2016 so September 2016 before he wins the election. Right. I'm like, oh crap he's doing this. He break norms all the time bribe or remove representatives the law claim ignorance over things you know very, very well like, oh that man David Duke I don't know David Duke. I think the collection of these things together is different from a Google search that says what how does Trump do what he does. And I've got another one like why people support Trump that also has links to the best articles I found about why people actually support Trump in my in my judgment this is only my radar and my perspective, but this act is different from a Google search substantially for me. Yeah, I agree. And Mark and I said it well. Yeah, I'm filtering by what you know you know. Yes, and the gathering is definitely a part of it I just I just was complaining about the gathering because I was afraid that it was looking like the gathering was all that was that I was doing there and that like the one was just like a simple trivial example to stage. Still kind of fun. Yeah, anyway. So that that Trump pictures is an interesting example for me of something that. So. So what I can take away from that more or less is that, you know, Trump has a lot of complexity or processes or something like that, but there's probably something that it. It's not super interesting. It's super interesting if I had time to dig into it, but, but I don't and I kind of, I have a top level, you know understanding of the Trump phenomenon and, and that's kind of good enough right. Unless I unless I need it deeper. So the thing that you have that. The thing that you have is is kind of raw. It's uncorrect right. You have a viewpoint and you have a curatorial understanding of all of that stuff. But I don't capture that from your curation of those links to to transmit it to me to help me understand what you see. I don't have to tell stories through that path or write an essay about, you know, here's, here's a, here's a hypothesis or here's a, or an observation I've made about Trump and then have a through line through that right. And until you narrativize it that way. It's not, you know, it's, it's raw, it's raw material it's not, it's not cooked, it's not digested it's not sensible. So, so yes and no, I've had a bunch of people send emails over time saying I turned to your brain first when I have a new area, who who have a satisfying enough experience coming into my brain without my presence to discover a bunch of stuff and find useful things and make that a habit in their lives and start looking at my brain. So for some people, a few people, maybe this is like 21%, I don't know. But for some people, my brain is self explanatory enough that they can make their way around and they don't have to ping me and go hey Jerry. Generally speaking the reason I just brought it back up doing sort of screencast narrative screencast is that what you just said is like, totally like yeah, I need to be in there. And one thing I love to do, but is very time consuming is like the SNP series that I did around the global financial crisis of 2008 where I actually sat down for a couple days, thought through the logic, did some research collected up evidence, and then recorded three screencasts which are in a playlist, which I can easily, I can hand somebody a link to the playlist on YouTube, and a link to the nexus in my brain and those two things represent a whole bunch of storytelling and a bunch of work and a big collection of articles and events and all of that. But that was a bunch of work. Right, that represented a bunch of specific labor but I was, but I was really interested in this was kind of a prototype of story threading before maybe before I was thinking of story threading in the sense of, it's my alternative explanation for why the global financial crisis happened why we haven't dealt with it properly since then, and why it's going to you know things like that are going to whack us again. And the idea that the idea that we snip long term relationships isn't the thesis I've heard from someone else I've heard plenty of interesting, you know, ideas about why the crisis happened but that wasn't one of them. So anyway, does that make sense. And, and the idea of linearizing that into a couple blog posts sort of bores me. One of my, one of my epiphanies this morning, that regularly occurs I think is that two things. We have a, I'm going to say content we have a content glut, you know, telling the story of Trump, even is something that we have, you know, thousands of hours worth of stuff if I needed to access some of that I could pretty easily access it. And each of us I think looking at the screen is old enough to have grown up in a era of content scarcity. So, so I do this all the time and many people I see do it all the time, it's like, oh my god I put together this content like we like it's 1980, and you know this is so amazing and so precious and stuff like that and it's like, we're in a completely you know it's content is not the scarcity it's there's a few things that are scarce for me and the few things that attract me when I'm reading Twitter it's it's a lot more about a novel take on something, or somebody's made a connection that that was not obvious to me. So those not obvious connections are the thing that our goal to me now. And the ones that, you know, the kind of the more not obvious but the more important, the better they are, you know, and the, I didn't get to see a bunch of faces lighting up when I said, you know, back in the olden days but back in the olden days. You know, really, like condensed condensed nugget of any content, you know, I probably each of us, you know, I used to read whatever I could right I would read random magazines I would read the back of a cereal box over and over and over because it was something right it was content. Nowadays, you know, you know, that's like noise it's something that you don't want. And Jerry, as you talk about, you know, how am I going to narrate through this or the things that are important to me out of your brain are more about novel connections and and things that I didn't think of, and not just a story, because we have too many stories. Agreed. And so for me, the insight is the curated collection of links that tells a better story. And I think I think I need to refine it that way. So, Mark on this, I just connected, I already had her one for one of her great articles so I just connected it up to the to the Nexus. So I just added it to that thicket of things so it's now built on the story, right. But it's interesting because one thing I'm trying to get I was trying to get across is that as you curate and eliminate and that's fine and it's important needs to be done. At some point you'll want to tell a different story from the same collections you want to keep the collection. So right now, even making the links, you're making choices. And you're already pre curating and at some point you're like, you know what, I eliminated that but now I realize why it's important. And so, maybe you want to have the collection separate from the curated sets and have multiple curated sets as the evolve or for different audiences, or as your understanding changes you see. And this is why I'm in a single. The brain as a single graph. It's harder to do these layers. And that's something I'd like to do is being able to say, here's maybe the big curated collection because maybe it's already curated. The web active search and I want to subscribe to that. Here's what I decided was important and an important in there. And here's what is important for a view a curated view. And here's what's important for another curated view because I'll revisit this. So one of the really interesting things about the brain or maybe it's just how I use the brain is that those different contexts can coexist quite comfortably but not perfectly. In the beginning, I can have a snapshot, and then I can use that one of the nodes in this snapshot for a completely different snapshot or point of view or whatever. And it works, it works a bit, it certainly works if I'm narrating it because I can tell you what to ignore. But but the overload or the overlay, I don't know exactly what this is of the different ways of using this actually work really really really well. So, and what I'm trying to avoid is having to go to a different tool to do a particular thing. And although I will say that when Prezi was still Prezi before goddess lobotomy. I would storytelling Prezi and I would then go to Prezi and regenerate a bunch of objects that weren't linked into my brain because Prezi couldn't do that elegantly. And then I would go tell us, you know, go tell a story in Prezi. And then, and then I would create a, I would duplicate that Prezi and then get lost because I didn't know which of which of my many prezzies I had a particular node in and I got the version control problem that I'm trying not to have by having more or less canonical references to the interesting nodes or nexuses in this mind map. So, partly what I'm looking for in my wishful thinking about the future of what this media might look like is how do I stay and this is what I mean by, by what is the blackboard or the background or the frame that can hold a brain display and the database lookup and other things in a, in a, in a connected context that is persistent. Because otherwise I'm toolshifting to do a different like, I can't really do elegantly in the brain with what Kumu does. That doesn't work very well. But how can we get something closer than, hey, click on this link and you'll be taken over to this other random tool and in a different window someplace will, you know, we'll have this thing that isn't really connected back into the web. And I'm really interested in, in, hey, the Kumu thing lives in the same medium but it's a very different way of seeing what's happening in the information. Right. Same thing with argumentation theory. If I wanted to be strict about or speech act theory or whatever, if I wanted to be strict about those things then there would be a, it would be a mini app or an internal app that would enforce the structure of that particular way of thinking or seeing or analyzing would then help us help us make sense together. I don't really know what that thing is. And yeah, yeah, and this is what hyper knowledge is about it's about having a common format that can express all those things in a way that enables to map those tools reactively. It happens in one happens in another and so forth. And but the problem is it will always involve setup because if you, for example, you're in a argument map, are all the argument links, should they induce brain lengths or not automatically. So question. And, and, and you have to have this idea that probably it will be more suggestion, right. You added this link in this tool. So that tool should be aware that hey there's a new link and maybe it should be added, maybe not. Can I ask, I'm not sure. And, and this is something that the tools don't know about the note the notions that you're not just importing or exporting your maintaining a two way sync with filtering between knowledge ecosystems and knowledge likes if you will, that is very difficult because you don't want to probably even have rules saying, Oh, this kind of link added automatically I don't want to bother to confirm it but that kind of link let me decide. And you'll have to customize the connections and so on. So yeah, no ML ML is empty solution. And if we added some machine learning of different kinds this gets very very interesting. Because maybe for example as I'm curating in whatever tool, I can say, this thing I'm looking at now is a particular kind of frame treated as something special like like, call this out as a story or a narrative or a frame or a or or a claim, maybe in your world mark I'm fine. And then let it live in with the rest of the data, but, but the system now knows that that's a different thing and can compare and contrast it with like things, or something like that I don't know. I mean there's there's a hundred different ways that machine learning could be useful for this co thinking thing. You know, that just seems like one of them. So, so I kind of have my hair on fire that we're in a music civilization and that one of one of the reasons of that is that we don't have a shared memory. And that this shared memory thing is special, especially if it's durable and persistent over time if you're feeding a long term memory. I'm like kind of on fire about that and have been for a long time. And I don't think other people are. Am I like just standing with a flag in the middle of the field and this actually doesn't matter. Am I explaining it wrong. Does it not matter. Like, does it matter less than I think it does. Where's that fall. Many of us in OGM are on fire about the idea of shared knowledge and shared memory and things like that. And we, we have that, you know, there we have it in different ways. We're all trying to make it better. Does that answer your question. That's kind of like a man. I mean, so, so it's not a circular holes and platitude, actually. I love that. Anybody else with a strong opinion about this or even I feel like I did I not get the question or did I think you got the question, but you're saying we all have interesting takes on this and and to me, to me, you know, I spend my life. That's what I do. Right. Yeah, 20 or 30 years. That's what I've been doing. How can we not remember better. How can we, you know, I think Mark Antoine to I think Mark. You know, yeah. And I think that the next question and this. No, no, just just quickly is, this is the build OGM call how do we make a living out of doing this and just on that front, which I'll come to in just a second. Mr. Kranza. And then Hank, who raised the pinkie. What was David Christian's big history notion about human civilization was something like accumulated knowledge. I mean, I don't think we're amnesiac civilization, we have forms of memory, but each of us basically, you know, grow from to microscopic dots that come together and we eventually become, you know, semi adults, at least. Yeah, I would want you to qualify this notion of amnesiac I mean we all, we all start from blank slate would be the one of the metaphors but certainly it's not blank we have, we have a history of evolution that goes back billions of years, but it's different kinds of knowledge. We have in the words of the epistemological epistemological evolutionary. The logic in the genes we have the logic that's built up in the body that we can't see consciously in our immune systems and muscle memory these types of things, but we have a higher level, which is a symbolic knowledge layer that we transmit and it accumulates over time I mean, I'm not, I don't have this bookshelf behind me on purpose it's just where I have the computer it's not trying to brag or anything but basically, we have. I have a reflexive misunderstanding or problem with this notion of amnesiac when it comes to civilization. Your background. Hey, some of the stuff is hidden on purpose. What does so the question comes up. Really what do what do you exactly mean by this amnesia. So, so funny you should bring up David Christian. I met him at Davos at the World Economic Forum said multiple years ago and I listened to him talk I was one of his audience then I went up and talked to him afterward and I said, Hey, interesting beautiful you know very highly produced big history project Bill Gates gave him a lot of So, so I said, how do I use your materials to tell a story about colonialism and decolonization. And he was like, he was like, he was like, well you sort of can't. And, and he said, gosh, a lot of my historian friends are really mad at me because because of sort of what you're saying like I, the big history project is a beautifully produced piece of knowledge of the kind that you're doing that is hermetically sealed behind the intellectual property barriers that don't let me weave it into my story and appropriate it for my own story to enhance change whatever whatever whatever. And for me, books are becoming like, I call PDFs where information goes to die, I think some of us come from that world books for me are becoming little prisons of good ideas because we over protect them. And the authors over protect them the idea should be that the author should get a short head start that's the framers of, you know, the original copyright clause and the statute of and and 1610 or 1640 1610 I think is the original copyright act right statute of and under queen and a short advantage so you can make some money and then the idea supposed to tumble into the common so that we can use it, but it doesn't. And then we proceed to over protect like, like, I have a hard I read a lot of books to I like long form stuff, no big deal. I use the highlighter in the Kindle and I use a little app on the side, whose name is if you now read. It'll come to me. And that sort of syncs with the Kindle notes features so that it kind of has the little clippings that I highlighted, but really not in a usable form where I can leave them in. I also don't use hypothesis which is just not usable enough to fit into the way I work on stuff. And if I were using all those things better, they might actually sort of click together into a little way to use this this this idea, you know this this collected intelligence. Yes, we know the thing we praise the thing we love right now is books and we think books are smart and smart people write books, but they're right there. Their ideas are imprisoned in books and we are stupider, because our ideas are being like swept out of the Commons and enclosed and kept from us in weird ways like everybody's not going to read the long form book and go oh I remember that point. But if we could, if we could debrief them download them make them incredibly accessible contextualize them and then are equipped them so that they're usable when we're sitting down to make decisions. That's really cool. Right. And then I remember years ago realizing that for a lot of civic process and deliberation and rulemaking is like this 90 minute period for public comment during which you could convene a panel. And you basically would have to you have to for the process you had to create a report on the topic so you had to hire somebody to write a report, which was just a report in a capsule, you had to train up a bunch of citizens on this one issue. And then they had to make a decision and then that one little decision sort of made its way back to legislators in this in this sort of way that civic process was supposed to work. And I'm like, that's just an asinine waste of time, like like issues like zoning and watersheds and all that are woven into the world all the time there's no reason to write a new thing, you can have different points of view on these things. How do we how do we change public discourse so that we can make better more informed deeper decisions constantly and consistently and learn from what that town over there did and share it with this town over here. And I said we're busy like replicating all of this over and over again and little tiny instances that are cut from the herd. I'm making a lot of big sweeping statements but I feel really strongly about this. That waste of time statement, you know, basically deliberative democracy. And hey, let's cut the bullshit. Whoa, I'm kind of like, I don't, I don't know about that. What part don't you know about sorry. You know, thinking before I don't mean that I don't mean that it's fruitless. I mean that it's a whole lot of effort in a little capsule of time for information that gets lost and cut away that nobody else knows about David go enter had a pre web book. What the heck was it mirror worlds. Yeah. And basically when, when everything gets modeled. And we can all see it and it's all transparent and, and basically we can use this live compiled information that's assembled for us automatically my algorithms and it becomes the algorithm that we all can personally and collectively tap into of societal flows of of of sensor sensory information that's generated automatically about our society how many stop lights are broken how many hospitals have beds in them that can handle a certain type of treatment. I'm, I'm, I'm simply reminded that when I use my mimics or pan Sophia. Basically, I'm using it for many different things. I'm using it for therapeutic reasons. How am I feeling this way this morning. Okay, I'm going to go inspect that. Why do Mark, I'm going on and I not really understand each other completely as I thought we would. Okay, I'm going to like try to figure out that. I'm going to work more with me because he's cool. And, you know, why, why, why isn't Stacy saying anything, you know, I am, I am, you know, not only looking at the ideas of play dough and, you know, the morning paper and the each and, you know, what I last night, but there are so many different use cases. It comes into what I just heard from Nora Bates and kind of like a hyper contextuality, or a trans contextuality a multiple contextuality. One data is that the first that you think about. Um, well, I, I have, have, if you have like a multiple context thing from her. I don't, I don't have hyper contextuality. Well, warm data is contextual relational interaction. So it is contextual. It is, but basically I need to get to Mark Antoine and a number of friends of mine, her talk at the 2021 bio semiotics gathering, which is absolutely brilliant. I will try to find that and post it in the chat and thank you. But, but basically, um, boy, are there taxonomies of many different things and many different context for the use of your brain. And have you got that kind of taxonomy of your own behavior, because I can almost guarantee that you use this thing differently in different use cases. Of course, I just said I do. I'm sorry. I said, I, I, I, I, it's multi contextual, multi. It's a, I use it many different ways and they all happen to sort of work because the tool is kind of thin enough or skinny enough. It does only a few things that really matter to me. And the rest, the rest I'm kind of layering on and that's really useful to me it's not, it's not a dedicated special purpose tool sort of like Kumu seems to be. Basically, Mark, Peter, who I've heard talk so far on this, and Jerry, of course, but certainly not putting off Hank or Stacy, and I'll let Hank go next, very, very quickly, but a trying to get a list of these use cases has been tricky for me. And because it's these multiple contexts. Thanks, Hank. Yeah. The world is drowning in information is drowning in knowledge is drowning in fake knowledge is drowning in data is very little wisdom. And without trying to say that Jerry's brain is wisdom or Wikipedia is wisdom it's not it's just ways that people can access things that are important to them, so that with deep reflection or collaborative deep reflection maybe they will get some wisdom out of it. So, you said a few minutes ago Jerry, it's a curated collection of links. That's important. And then a few minutes after that to wandered out loud if you were standing alone in an empty field waving a flag got the image of a Mephisto the film Mephisto, you know it. I don't know the scene where the with director who collaborates with with Hitler is on an empty stage looking up at this at the ceiling and saying yes but I'm just doing my thing. That's not exactly the part but that's that's more or less the feeling of it. Yesterday in the conversation, you said something that had made me think all evening and all this morning. What you said, smart people helping to collect I just translate synthesize each other's ideas is doing the work of the world. And I think that this type of thing that we're talking about here we're talking about in in free Jerry's brain in this building odm call is the work of the world. And it's the kind of stuff that's especially suited to the people on this call and probably to others in in odm. And it doesn't matter if you're alone, alone in the field waving a flag, you know, as somebody's got to do it someone's got the wave the first flag. Yeah, I think you if putting out a form of Jerry's brain in a more accessible way so that as we often have been calling people like me. And if the models the non it people could really use it and access it and say, wow, I never saw those things fitting together. Why do they fit together and sit down and think about it and the dinner table talk to their children about it. You're really doing the world of service. Anyway, that's that's how I see it. And I really agree with that and I want, I want to do something so interesting and attractive that people will take the energy they're spending memorizing baseball stats. Like a lot of people that don't look intelligent are actually really really smart you just have to scratch until you uncover the thing that they're really smart about. And maybe like, they can memorize a quilt pattern to to to the point where they don't look at instructions and like produce an entire beautiful work and make, I don't know what it is right but people are like the brains are working. It's just that we've made a world where when they try to apply it to make sense of the world there's too many notes. And it doesn't really work and civic participation seems to be a bit of a dead end and it just gets you in trouble and maybe physically hurt. So how do we create a shared artifact that is fun fun to curate that is meaningful to curate so that it leads to better decisions. And so that we can like lather rinse improve, and it has to let each of us create our own point of view inside of it, and then make room for this, you know, shared insights in some way and I don't. I'm not sure exactly what that looks like, but I think it is like really important, I think that that that this shared artifact that embodies. Okay, so this appears to be a claim, which is a speech act. What is the underlying logic and what are the premises that reinforce this claim and then and then wiggle down that chain of logic that mark on one software will have put next to us, so that we can start to go. Okay, it seems to rely on these four for pieces of evidence or reasoning. Do I agree with them and do you and let's keep going and not that we're going to do that for everything we say and claim, but that having this at hand will actually like really improve things. Mark Thank you for finding the video I did a search on on YouTube for baits and speech title and that didn't actually work for me but you found it cool. Hank then mark. Oh, I have to take my sorry. Well, I've got the floor thanks for it. From my fist, so I only had the paraphrase but that's the real quote, and it's very powerful. It's a very powerful ending. Love that. Thank you. And Mark, did you want to jump in. Oh, so boy, have I been thinking about this. And it really helps to talk about it, because it's very, very difficult. These calls are the talking cure. Sure. And again, basically two weeks ago on. I forget if it was a bill of GM call or general comments call you and Pete had had it back and forth. I wouldn't have gotten these ideas if I hadn't watched the video gone back and watch the video something I didn't attend. Now, my, I have a, I have a story it's a bad story it's a fake story it's a story that is made up and is probably untrue. That story is I need about 1000 hours of talking to figure this out so that I can write it down, write a spec and do about 2000 hours of coding to get exactly what you asked for. But, you know, based on where I'm coming from, I tried to do that with Mark, I've tried to do that with you a couple of times Jerry, and there's a impedance mismatch. It's, it's fascinating. It's cool. It's good. So Mark, when you're using your tool. It's making sense to you in a way that I don't understand. I can't see I cannot see it I cannot grasp it I see that there's a bunch of stuff around a timestamp. I see it's a little bit like backlinks in Rome or whatever, but not quite like backlinks in Rome. And I see numbers that mean nothing next to phrases that are repeated a lot. And it's all in one long for and it doesn't it doesn't in my mind it doesn't it doesn't. It doesn't read it doesn't remap itself you know how data sometimes lies in funny shapes, and then gets instantiated in some visualization right like the brain is tuples and suddenly like it's a thing on screen. The brains thing on screen really works for me and I realize I'm probably a couple sigmas off the mean here. And when you whenever you're even when you screen shared the other day, like I was like I just don't see it. And it's, it's music to you and you're doing art and data together which is fabulous. And I'd love to get to the point where what you feel actually is useful for me. I would love to get to the point I don't see it. And so I need about 1000 hours of talking and 2000 hours of coding to get there. Or externalize your data say a lot about what you mean and crowdsource somebody else to come up with the results because you may not be the guy who shows up and figures out what those connections are and how to see them. What I'm attempting to do is basically go through the path of science semiotics to basically say, Aha, here's the iconic level of digital. Language meets digital. Here's the indexical level of where language meets digital. I know we can't get to the symbolic because that's not what computers can do, but as an aid to symbolic processing in the human mind. What is the simplest possible way to store some notes and basically, you know, to store it it's just type something, which is the focal. Michael Simone call it the focal attention. Right now my focal attention is on Jerry or it's on Stacy and the subsidiary attention is on Jerry's background or Stacy's background or how Stacy is in a box underneath. Peter and for me to the right of Hank, you know there's these relations that happen in the world that can be noticed. The focal and subsidiary attention. So, I am not where, or you know the, the, what I'm trying to do is the foundation that can get from what I'm doing to where you are taking the information that's stored in the exact way that can be eventually taken into what works for you as a visual map with consistent semantics consistent visual idioms. You have the people to the upper right you have the subset below you have the super set above. You have the people to the left or something that is worked out by another person in their own visual mapping. Gathering chunking sense. I understand that it's my fault. Well, yeah, let me just go there. It's my fault that people don't understand what I'm doing. Very clear about that. Happy, happy to raise my hand and say yeah, boy am I trying it's it's it's really really difficult. People who I think can really understand. Wow, I got to do all this work before. Sorry, Mark and Mark and one gets what I'm saying because he's not getting it. And, you know, no, no skin off of Mark and one. He's incredibly smart and he's got his own level where he looks at concepts I'm saying, no, look down here. Well, don't look down here exactly but you know really really low in in this. I think I'm looking, I think I'm looking quite low actually. Yeah, yeah. So, so two things, two things. One of which is I want to tell you some good news before we're running completely out of time. But Mark, it occurs to me that you and I are doing remarkably similar things day to day for a long period of time. And this is I think that they vary. I have a different set of choices about what I put in my brain than you doing what you put an MX. Right. So we are, are the curation of chunk and chunk size and chunk framing is different. Your, your chunks are more like no taking and stream of consciousness. My chunks are more like, Oh, this stands out it's memorable, or it's the title of a work or the name of a noun or whatever right. The second thing is, the only feature I really use out of the brain is up down left. And I make it mean meaningful things to me at every point in the along the journey so that the left isn't miscellaneous the left is antonyms or tight couplings, or it's like like the jump thought if the brain didn't have this weird little jump thought thing, it would be much weaker for me semantically it would like like, I would lose some aspect of what I love about its expressive capacity. I don't use any of its advanced features I don't use link types dot types labels tags, whatever whatever whatever I use none of that. So, so all that can be chucked overboard and I would not, I would not lose a moment sleep. So I'm not doing a lot more than you are, but the little bit of context that I'm adding and the little bit of editorial that I'm adding makes the brain work like super duper duper well for me and a couple other people in the world. I'm going to look at what you're doing because I realized that we're like, so close, but, but your system lacks so much context for me that I can't actually make any sense of it. Like, like, like MX doesn't have any added layer of semantics that helps a non note taker who did the original note taking makes sense of it. And if it did, it could be incredibly powerful. And I don't exactly know how to manifest it and I'm not saying it should look like the brain. I'm just saying that the brain ain't that much more different than what you're doing. Does that make sense to you. Let me take before we run, we're almost at our hour I just want to say, like a couple of you know, so actually really good news. Yesterday, I've been in a casual conversation with Jim rut, who is kind of the center of the game be movement and who back in the game was the CEO of network solutions which was an important infrastructure player. And on the day of the dot com disaster he closed the deal selling net saw to verisign and walked away with a good payout and since then has been doing interesting things including this game be thing. Yes, we've been having casual calls because we're each sort of interesting to the other. And in a call last week he was like, you know, and I was describing OGM and it's needs for some funding. We said, you know, today I sent a note saying no thank you to an organ. I thought we were going to invest in so we have a little bit of spare cash in the family foundation. I wrote a proposal and yesterday we talked at noon and he made some, we sort of refined a piece of the proposal and he said yes, and he's basically sending $25,000 over into OGM to do something with and I have a use of funds in the proposal and all of that. A piece of it comes to me a piece of it goes to people who are going to edit. We're going to stand up weaving the world as a as both a video podcast and an audio podcast through probably anchor dot FM. And then I'm going to curate just in the brain, because he was like specifically what happens now and I'm like, I'm, I do this thing in the brain so he's like great that's exactly what I want. So I'm going to curate each episode before during and after and then a brain sort of hopefully recruit other people to join in with other tools and other means to sort of start to start seeding the fungus the big fungus and he's like fungus and I'm like, yep, the big fungus. And so he's on board. And, and, and I think very importantly in the context of building a piece of that money is to create to start two projects which I would describe here as tiles in the big mosaic. I'd like to fund to smallish projects that are software projects that will put some pieces in place for the bigger thing for the bigger vision we're heading toward. So I'm like trying to figure out what is a bite size proposal that fits into the larger map of where we're all kind of heading. What is like a double word tile that we can that we can make into this. And I've got I now have some funds that whoever wants to build it and do it could collect. I would love to do that. And I would love your, your fertile imaginations on this and all feedback and ideas and everything else. Congratulations. Thank you. It's not a lot of money but it's actually, it's actually directionally perfect. Like, and he like it's and it's sprang out of a conversation where I had no, I wasn't pitching him. He wasn't on my sort of list as a potential funder, but he has funds and it just sort of emerged organically and like the night the nicest nicest way. And so now I can sort of go walk to other people and say, Hey, Jim, what did this that you're interested. It gives me a gives me a place to go talk more people, and it gives me some stuff to stand up and just go do really quickly now. Jerry, you're standing in the field, you waved your flag, and it just proves, build the field they will come and use it, it will build itself. All I need is a baseball team to show up now. You've got one here. Yeah, exactly. Seven of us. A point of order please. I wasn't able to save the chat from the last call yesterday, because it went. Everybody say goodbye and boom it evaporated way too quickly so I just saved the chat, but a little warning. If we can remember at the end of a talk. Well, so I've been, we've totally broken discipline with using matter most for our chats. It's just a wee bit too complicated to manage two chats and then, and so forth. I have been but not consistently taking the chats and posting them to the channels for the appropriate calls. So what do you see on, on yesterday. Well, whatever, I'm often but not always posting. It's good about making recordings and when you make a recording get a chat to. Yeah, the chat. The chat shows up from zoom I have all the chats so so I've got them. I don't have a consistent habit of posting them to the matter most chats which would be one place to put them. I also, it's extra work to separate out the, and I don't get transcripts for all the calls I get transcripts only for the Thursday calls but those are useful. And I don't have the, it takes extra work to actually remember where they go and move them around so I don't do that habitually. If I had a couple of macros and pipes I think that would be easily fixed. Or yes or an intern. And part of what Jim offered was his assistant to do some some wrangling and he also has some staff that edit his podcast. He has the he has to podcast the Jim rut show and another one that's more casual. And the Jim rut shows is held up to a pretty high level of podcast production has a whole bunch of people, you know, listening to it and so forth. So, you know, he's very experienced in that world. For example, we should make them for for the FGV calls. We should make one. There's no that quick question. Sorry, is there a location for the FGV calls the presentation. There's a private channel on matter most for FGV. So I post them in there. Please. If you're not in we'll invite you in right now. Thank you. We should make a air table or a wiki or or a trove annex or or something probably all three of those. And I get people I guess I would use to get people. But we should have one place where you just, you know, you can find all the video links and all the charts. So what I'd love is to drop them in one place where they're going to be stored permanently and then to have every time there's a new drop to have a script that basically says, I know what to do with a new drop zip zip zip zip zip zip zip. And I need to figure out what those steps are and where you know where to put what I actually want to build that as a service. And then we can do a transcripts and stuff like that. That might actually be a tile piece, Pete. And if you want to frame that up as a project because I've heard somewhere that everything is a project. And that seems like that seems like a simple project that would actually help shit ton. I believe that's a term of art. So yeah. There's a dimension of that that I'm extremely interested in. I agree having a, it's like a RSS, but it's interesting because the entries are like ICS their calendar, and they get modified after the fact because you're adding the extra information. Here's the transcript. Here's this, here's that. The other thing I'm really I've used in Idealum and I would like to kind of extract from there is all these chats. Here's a chat and here's segments like a post hoc threads, like most people now use linear systems, which don't give you threading. And can we reconstitute the threads after the fact. I just saw a new feature on YouTube called clips it just like came by the screen and I haven't used it, but it appears that YouTube has gotten smart and made it easy to point people to a segment, not just a starting point because you know you've been able to do T equals number of seconds in for a long, long time but now I think clips are working which might be very, very useful as an affordance. Sorry, Mark, go ahead. I work at a place that will store anything digital forever for free. I've heard of this. In fact, in fact, the only place that my old podcast the Yitan weekly technology called the only place that exists in the world right now is in the archive, because I hired a Lithuanian who was basically doing some post processing for me for the nine years I did the podcast, and one of his tasks was to make sure every episode was in the archive. And we don't have enough Lithuanians. We have a shortage of Lithuanians. Yeah, maybe we can fix that. But getting to stuff in the archive. Boy, is that difficult. I have the dream that a whole bunch of people will basically gorilla attack the archive they will store stuff, and they will basically create a new interface to get to their stuff. I would love that because, for example, there's no way that I found and I didn't try hard in the archives for me to reconstitute my old podcast. I can do it. I can do a search on the archive on the keyword Yitan which should be pretty rare like why I hyphen to end should be like a pretty unique string. It coughs up some of the episodes not a lot I don't know not in any good order. Nothing, nothing, nothing. It'd be super cool to have some kind of overlay context that says oh here's what that entity actually was. And in fact it's missing a couple episodes anybody have these. You know whatever that'd be really awesome among among many other things and I think that's a super interesting conversation to have with you in the archive. Any other thoughts. I'm a bit curious about how the archive I know it interacts a lot with the D web. I would like to have details about that. There's a D web. Two hours from now. We're going to be on. Yeah. Oh yeah that's true. So we'll see you shortly I guess. Stacey you know, you know, Jim, and any thoughts. Any thoughts about Jim rut. Yeah, or about just this conversation general. Jim. Yeah, I know Jim rock from game day. So, you know, his philosophy is, you know, in alignment with what I think most of the people here think, as far as the overall conversation it was just, you know, Mark mentioned how silent I was. I was just drinking everything in and wondering if the thoughts I'm having in my head even relate to what's going on. So, yeah, I'm just going to stay quiet I think. If the stance are stimulated by the conversation we're having they do relate in some in some sense and it would be really fun to sort of follow the threads and to figure out how you know how that works. And I think there's an interesting. There's an interesting exercise that's a little bit out of reach for us, but like you just have kind of planted it in my head which is, okay, let's say there's an episode or an event. How do we get a bunch of people who are just sort of in the audience to report in what this, you know what sparks it lights up for them in their in their heads. And the questions they come out like, how do we how do we derive some of the byproduct thinking from a particular conversation, and then for some of them how does that weave into the larger question because, because a really important aspect of all of this is not to like one of the aspects is that they dissolved into a self referential crowd of people who were saying like really smart things they were like the post modernist if you go back and look at them, and they're almost unreadable. But if you go back and look at what they were saying they were like totally dead on with their critiques of consumerism. They predicted sort of the worldwide web and all that, but they were incomprehensible to a normal citizen incomprehensible, and we don't want to dissolve into that we want to be more comprehensible to normal people. So I guess that sort of does tie into what I've been thinking because like when Mark was talking and describing where my position was, I was thinking well that's not the way I'm saying it. And I got an email from this friend that I've mentioned before that I'm kind of estranged from. And it was from David or, you know, and, you know, he's a well known conspiracy theorist, and also known to be an anti semi. And so at first I just rejected the whole thing and then I said you know what let me just listen to what he's saying. Now I don't often talk about like my spirituality or my views on consciousness here. But that's a very big part of where my attention is, and listening to him. I agree with everything he's saying. However, I fully disagree with the, where he's directing the energy like he talks about all the psychopaths that are in the world, I totally agree with. But then he calls Fauci, and Gates a psychopath, and not one mention of Trump, and my like for me he's another snake oil salesman. But his message, if I took it out of you know if I took away all of the identifying features. I can agree with that. So, I guess where my thoughts are is that we're never getting the whole picture or the picture from the same point of view. And that's what I was thinking for this call and I'm not really sure how it fits in or matches. And that's totally related to what we're saying here like like really fits in nicely and in that one of our concerns is how to absorb mirror reflect represent and then talk through conflicting points of view about stuff and you know one of the reasons that got really popular was that there's a grain of truth behind a bunch of stuff that he says. You know he was one of the few politicians who were like busy saying George W Bush had no business taking us into the Iraq war the Iraq war was stupid. There's no Republicans. I don't know of any Republicans who said who said that maybe one or two but nobody. And that that's completely true that we had no business spending all that money and treasure and human lives in Iraq and destroying this country that didn't attack us. I'm not saying that. And there's a bunch of things like this right and then and then also behind most stereotypes and most biases there are grains of truth. Polish immigrants to the US are mostly on illiterate peasants from the countryside so the pollock stereotype is like the dumb pollock, you know, and there's a grain of truth in there because this wasn't this this wasn't this wasn't PhD immigrants. This was people who'd been like digging potatoes out of the soil and then showed up here and said how do I work. Okay. So how do we, how do we sort that out and how do we make that work properly. And the only other thing that I think about is the element of time. When you're bringing in the information what's the context at that time. So the thing I thought you meant, but I agree with what you just said as well is the effect of relationships over time the building of trust over time, the evolution of perspectives over time. All of that kind of stuff like time is a huge and interesting variable here. Sweet. Thank you. Appreciate that. Thank you for this call. See a couple of you on the on the meetup on the web meetup. Thank you.