 Yes. Thanks so much. Hello everybody. I'm Kevin Cherry and I'm the program officer at IMLS. The Institute of Museum and Library Services is the chief source of federal support for the nation's libraries and museums, including living collections of botanical gardens, aquaria, zoos, arboretum, and archives. The mission of IMLS is to inspire libraries and museums to advance innovation, lifelong learning, and cultural and civic engagement. We provide leadership through research, policy development, and perhaps how you best grant making. A signature initiative of the Institute of Museum and Library Services, the WebWise conference annually brings together representatives of museums and libraries, archives, system science education, and other fields to explore the many opportunities made possible by digital technologies. In 2012, WebWise took the theme of tradition and innovation and we invested in how libraries and museums have used digital technologies to help scholars and students and educators and the general public understand history and the humanities. One of the panels during that meeting was digital voices creating and preserving oral history. Oral histories are some of our most compelling artifacts. They literally bring history to life and with new technologies, libraries, museums, and archives can now clearly manage these priceless documentaries in more efficient and effective ways. So we here at IMLS are pleased to have supported some of this work and to be sharing a bit of it with you today. So I'll turn it over to Kristen Lays from Heritage Preservation who's the moderator for today's webinar. Now remember that full recordings of all of the WebWise conference presentations are available online at the link you see on the screen there that says tvworldwide.com. So Kristen, thanks so much. Thanks Kevin. As Kevin mentioned, I'm Kristen Lays. I work here at Heritage Preservation. We're a national nonprofit organization that works with museums, libraries, archives, historical societies, and many other groups and individual citizens across the country and helping them care for collections. And we are so proud to be part of a group of people working on the Connecting to Collections online community. We came into the meeting room through that Web site and it's a project we're working with the American Association of State and Local History and with Learning Times to produce it and we're so grateful for IMLS funding that makes it possible. If you're new to the online community, our goal is to help museums, libraries, archives, and other groups quickly locate reliable preservation resources and to network with their colleagues. We have over 1,500 members at this point and we've got links under the topics menu that help you navigate to different types of collections and different collections care topics. This is an outreach of the IMLS Connecting to Collections initiative which was a multi- collaborative that involved seven conferences across the country, distributed a book show preservation resources to more than 30,000 collecting institutions and so on the community about twice a month we host a live chat with preservation experts on a variety of conservation topics and I'm glad to tell you that IMLS has also provided heritage preservation with one of their Laura Bush 21st Century Librarian Program Grants. And this is going to enable us to produce some additional, more extensive and more intensive webinars starting this fall going more in-depth into some conservation topics. So look for these announcements and they'll be scheduled throughout the next year. Today I'm so pleased to welcome Dean Rayberger and Doug Boyd, they as we mentioned presented at the 2012 WebWise Conference in Baltimore and Dean works in Michigan State. Doug Boyd reports he is also roasting like the rest of us across the country and has to turn off his window unit air conditioner to be with us so it's a big sacrifice. He is the director of MATRIX which is the Center for Humane Art, Letters and Social Science Online at Michigan State and Doug Boyd is the director of the Louis B. Nunn Center for Oral History at the University of Kentucky Libraries where it is also over 100 degrees today. So we'll hear from them in a minute. Just want to give you a rundown of what we'll be doing today. First we'll have what we're calling a reprise of Dean's presentation at WebWise. We'll be watching this video together and looking at his PowerPoint slides and if you're having any trouble you know it's also posted on YouTube so for whatever reason you have a slow connection or if the buffering isn't working, it's worked out very well when we did it for our last WebWise reprise but we are over 100 people today now watching this so if for whatever reason you're having trouble do click on the YouTube link. I'll have it up on the screen at the same time. Just notice that your meeting room screen will not change. You will need to find in your web browser where YouTube has launched and then do come back to the meeting room for the rest of the presentation. So you'll notice in Dean's video that the Oral History and the Digital Age website was not quite complete at the time he spoke which was in March so we're so glad today he will give us a live tour of the Matrix website, Oral History and the Digital Age and then we'll have Doug who's also you'll notice in the video is integral to this poll project and he will give us a tour of the University of Kentucky site and explain the Oral History Metadata Synchronizer or the OHMS system. Then we hope to have plenty of time for your questions. So just before we get started I'd love to learn a little bit about you all today. So I'm going to pull up some poll questions to the screen if you can click in your responses and we have one where you'll type it in. Let me just move this away. The polls are disappearing. So if you can just answer those questions, looks like many of you did not make it to Baltimore which is exactly where the reason that IMLS encouraged us, encouraged Heritage Preservation to give a chance for folks who weren't able to attend to see some of the presentations. We're not doing this through all the presentations but two were particularly useful we thought and wanting to give you a chance. So it looks like there are a lot of you who work in multiple aspects of Oral History. So I think that's interesting for our presenters to know about. I'm going to close off one of these polls and see if we can bring up our last poll question for you. Our speakers wanted to know since a big part of their work has to do with making Oral History accessible what kind of challenges you're running into in your work. So if you want to type in the chat box we'll just give a few minutes to this to give you all a chance to type in your answer but just sort of give them a sense of what's going on in your institution. So people and money, Dean or Doug do you want to chime in? Was there something more specific than that you were interested in knowing about such as is it people power to make things available online or money to buy certain software or hardware? This is Doug and it seems like it's pretty clear in terms of the consensus seems to be money in terms of funding and Oral History is a very expensive thing to do so we're going to talk about that. Great. Okay we'll just give it a minute or two I see some more people are typing in. Well if you're not familiar with these projects that you'll hear about today I think one of the best parts is that they've done such a great job with putting all their information up online so best practices and information will be at your fingertips and that certainly helps with staffing and funding when you don't have to reinvent the wheel every time so I think you're going to really appreciate what you learn about today. Okay well without further ado I would like to get to our speakers. I'm going to begin the video and just drag these polls away and let's fix Dean up on the screen a little bit better. Please let me know if you're having trouble seeing anything but again I've just put up another box to just show you what that YouTube URL is in case you do need to go off to another part in your computer to watch but hopefully everything will stream easily. So I'm going to go ahead and play so I think John at learning times will help us get the audio going and let's listen up to the presentation. I'm going to kind of give an overview of the whole project and some of the background for it and then Robert and Doug, Doug who has been instrumental in developing a lot of the oral history in the digital age are going to give specific instantiations. In other words I give the boring part and they have the exciting part. But anyways before I get started I just want to think I'm a less it's been a wonderful two days I'm always amazed when I come to web wise the number of projects that are being done and still funded in these very difficult times and they keep doing it and they have a wonderful vision for the future now too and I really like what they're doing. With that said let's get going. So anyways I'm going to tell a tale in three parts I'm going to tell you kind of background story on the project I'm going to tell you some of the resources and tools we have and then some of the findings. Oh thanks. Is that better? Can everyone hear me now? Do you want me to start over? No. Anyways. This is our website project website. We're not officially going to be launching until May 1st when we cut the cake and everything like that. But I want to really encourage people to go there over the next month or two we're going to do rapid development putting lots of stuff up and we're at the point where we would like a lot of feedback and a lot of comments there's not much there now but there soon will be and we really want you to comment we really want you to use things and tell us what doesn't work what's not good and what's bad. Alright anyways let's get into the story. I had a really simple idea I rarely have more than simple ideas. The way to think about oral history and the digital age is just to bring together a lot of really good people who deal with oral history in the digital age and people who are video experts, audio experts, librarians, archivist, oral historians, folklorists so I'm not going to tell you all the people you can go to the site and see them there's like 27 people who participated in the project. We also brought together a lot of organizations that are important the Oral History Association, the American Folklore Society, the Michigan State University Museum, the American Folklife Center at the Library of Congress, the Smithsonian Center for Folklife and Cultural Heritage the Nun Center for Oral History at the University of Kentucky and of course Matrix at Michigan State University. So all I thought of is we'd bring these all together put them in a big pot shake them up and see what we could come out with. We had meetings, we set up digital tools for them, we created wikis, we did everything we could just to get them talking and doing things. Now the hope of course was in all good project management that you'd have planning, you'd have milestones and you'd get to the end, you'd have a nice product and you'd turn it out for IMLS. And of course what we had is the digital humanities effect I like to call it and that is when you get a bunch of people who are into the digital humanities collaborating they interact, then they make adaptations then they re-envision what they're doing and then they collaborate again. And this of course drives our funders like IMLS and NEH crazy. Because we get to the end of the third year and we're like oh this is really great, we just came up with the best idea, there's new technology out there, we gotta start over. And the great thing about them is they'll come to us and say that's okay settle down just apply for another grant. We'll come to you next time. But anyways, we decided that the best way to get started was of course wasn't to reinvent the wheel, what we wanted to find out, what was going on out there. So we started out with a survey of lots of professionals around the country and oral historians and people in the field and people doing folklore. We had like a 69 question survey that we did. We also set up a wiki and this is public, you can go to the wiki and find all these things and that's one of the things we wanted to make kind of as part of the digital humanities effect. The process is as important as what we come out of the end because it's going to be a continual process. We actually found 369 online oral history and narrative repositories out there and there's probably more than that so if you find more add to the list. We found over 145 online best practices sites that were out there that people used. Of course it wasn't enough just to do that, what we did is we actually broke down all the sites and looked at what were they focusing on, what were they doing and more importantly we looked at who they were citing and who was citing them so we had kind of a nodal network and kind of come out with just a few that are being kind of seen as the most important resources. One way to help kind of engage all these 145 sites is we created a multifaceted search which you can use that allowed us to search all of these best practices resource by a host of different ways whether you're interested in interviewing curating, processing the interviews, you can find out all the different things, you can search by one facet or you can search by multiple facets. There is no one place that you can actually search by all facets and anything comes up. And from all this bringing all these people together and doing all this background work what we did is we got the people in our group to start writing essays and start writing things. Now instead of doing 27 long essays, we decided on the micro format which is about two to five pages most ended up to be about three to five pages there's about 56 of them in counting and what we want to do is publish them online and interlink them and tag them so people can go through them. Why did we decide on the micro format? Well we decided that well people don't like to read long things online number one and number two things are going to have to be updated on a regular basis. We already found that just two years into the project we're already updating a lot of the technology and so if we kept them short we kept them focused and we also can cover a lot more topics by doing this and we get the people who are on the project work extra for nothing. In addition to this we have what we call the ask Doug section which is going to be beta in about, see this is my life he gets to be the sexy front man. I'm always in the back of course you know he's comforting looking and people trust him they don't trust me. So we have a decision tree so somebody come to the site and say I have $500 what's the best recorder and that's actually most of the questions we get. People don't want to read long best practices documents they have specific questions. I'm going into the field and I need to do video recording and so it gives you a whole set of questions you have to answer in a sense it encourages best practices by going through and thinking through the decisions and working through with Doug and this way Doug can just answer everything once he doesn't have to keep answering them over and over again. So we'll have that up in just a few weeks in beta format for the recorders and video recorders. The other thing we did that wasn't in the grant but it just occurred to us well it occurred to Doug it was a good idea that we're oral historians why don't we do oral histories of all the people participating in the project so you know and it also shows best practices so we talked to the people and did oral histories it will be great resource 10-20 years from now we'll be able to look back and say you know here's what people were thinking at this time about the digital age we'll kind of laugh at the antique notions and things like that. But here's an example of Doug Ord at the University of Maryland Well so I'm Doug Ord I'm a professor at the College of Information Studies at the University of Maryland and I first got involved in oral history in 2001 when Sam Gussman came to give a talk at one of our professional conferences and his pitch was that he had a collection unlike any that those of us that were working on searching speech had ever seen. Well the first project I know in which we used oral history was the Maloc project that project started in 2001 was a five year project supported by the National Science Foundation that was a technology development project so the goal was to actually build systems that would serve searchers but rather to build the technology that would figure out which words were being spoken and what was the best way of searching those words. See the problem is that when you're trying to search text you can tell what words are on the page but when you're trying to search speech you have to figure out which words got spoken and so in that project we worked with Hopkins University with the IBM TJ Watson Research. So you can see a lot more of these oral history interviews with the people. I did forget to mention one thing that in addition to the publishing essays online there's going to be a special edition of the oral history review that's going to include a lot of our findings as well. Now as I move into the findings and talk about the final section here of the talk the traditional model for most researchers interacting with museums, libraries and archives is of course this model where they get some kind of funding, they go out and do their research they have a specific project in mind and product that they want to get out and they have this neatly organized wonderful box of media that's perfectly metadata enriched and they hand it over to the archive. Rarely ever happened but one of the things that we found out in doing this project was that most of the people who do folklore and do oral history had the digital humanities effect that 10 years ago when we talked in our survey we found out 10 years ago, a little more than 10 years ago, transcript was king. That was the important thing and now with all the cheap digital tools everyone's using digital technology. A lot more people are using video than ever before so it's really become part of their lives and in doing that you really see that there's a whole new sensibility in how we have to think about best practices. It's not a matter of just me focused on my project and frankly this is the best part of this project. Folkloreists and oral historians are really nice people. They like to talk to people. It's not like your average historian or English literary critic, grumpy people who like to sit on their own they're really nice so they get out there and talk and so they really get into things together but it is a process of thinking not just about when I go to collect I have to think about how it's going to be disseminated. It's going to be put on the web it's going to be done for TV. I have to think about how it's going to be stored what's a long term storage plan for this so it's no longer simply a linear process of getting to a product but it's a recursive project that you have to really think about all aspects of it. Now there are some places like audio that's pretty well decided. We can just say here is the best format and this is from the University of Minnesota has a great site on digital conservancy. It gives you the optimal 9624 or the recommended 4824 or finally of course if you're going to do it just okay do cd quality so we know we can give you those kinds of answers but even with audio that's not really the kind of thinking about best practices we need we really need to think more agile best practices and this is really true of video. Video does not have decided standards yet we really haven't decided what the best practice is and that probably won't be for a long time but there's lots of good practices now and we can tell you in the different situations what are going to be the best practices and that's what we really have to think about. Again it's the interlinking of what are you going to be doing with this stuff? Is it going to be on television? Is it going to be online? Is it going to be mobile? How is it going to be kept in terms of storage? How will the videos be distributed? Those are the kind of questions you have to answer to get to the best practices for this. We also have to have a number of instruments. Here's just one instrument real quickly. It's a great information sheet that the Nun Center uses to collect what we call metadata so you can kind of trick the oral historian. I mean encourage the oral historian good practices and we have lots of other instruments like this. We also have to get them to think more about B-roll and the ephemera and collecting those things because that's what makes a good exhibit. That's what makes a rich online repository. Here we have the interviews with quilters and we have documentaries, photos, even a poem that was collected at the time but that all needs metadata as well. Bad news. Luckily I only have two minutes left so I can't have too much bad news. Bad news is that of course copyright is not a settled issue. A lot of oral historians, I got my permission, I know how to go out and do this in the field. Well we have really good legal help and they say, you know, you really have to rethink those. That's pre-digital thinking. You know it used to be that you could do an oral history project with students and it would just turn into a nice essay. Now it can suddenly be on YouTube, millions of people viewing it and that's just a whole different environment. So we really have to start thinking those out and a lot of these cases are in the courts right now and working their way through. So finally, you know, how is this all going to happen? Well there has to be pressure, there has to be encouragement and that's really happening with funders like IMLS looking towards best practices, places like the Nun Center or Story Corps saying if you want to participate with us you're going to have to think about all of these things and that's happening a good deal. The other place of course is education as I said there's lots of great educational resources out there. Not only our site but like the Oral History Association and Baylor and Vermont, many, many good sites out there where you can get good information and we just need to make that more usable and more user friendly for people. So with that said, I'll turn it over to the sexier side of our project. If you want to get hold of your, here's my email address or you can tweet to me at Dean Ray. Please follow along as our project goes along and don't hesitate to be critical of anything we're doing and don't hesitate to ask Doug lots of questions. Alright? I'm going to turn it over to you. Okay. It's getting there. It's getting there. Thanks for being here. I just want to tell you that in real life when I do talk my lips do not match what comes out of my mouth ever. But anyway, let's get started. The website you see before you, is it up yet? Yes, it is. Thanks. The website you see before you is what we've been laboring and like all good digital humanities projects, of course, we've pushed back the launch date till just after the 40th. I know I said it was going to be okay. We gave our writers an absolute deadline so that we could be launching in many ways. And of course, like all good writers, some of them didn't turn in their stuff until last week. But, and some of them are changing and doing things different. And in the end, what we did is we produced about twice as much as we actually started out thinking that we were going to produce. And this has led to a different problem that we've been kind of working on as well, that as we kind of originally kind of decided on the materials that we've been developing, plus all the different kinds of experiences. You know, we could have anything from somebody who's just beginning a history project, two people working museums, people who work in libraries, curate and work with the materials that, you know, lots of different needs, lots of different users. And it's a chance to ask you to help us. What we'd like you to do is to visit the site in the next few days or so, and then give us some feedback. It was easy to do, what wasn't easy to do. And then we can make changes before we do do it. So launch and get everything in place. And I'll just go through some of the things that we have to help right now is that, one of the practices, the easy answer was that there is no simple set of best practices. That what we came away with when we went through this and came to people around the country is that you really have to be agile and adapt to different contexts. What's best practice for a museum, what's best practice for an archive, what's best practice for an oral historian in the field versus an oral historian where the studio really differs. So what we did is really came up with a lot more answers. And as we talked about, one of the ways we went about doing this was to have lots of experts actually write a number of micro-effets. I gave that talk back at WebEx, it actually doubled in number. We have quite a few essays. Many of them are up, not all of them. We're hoping in the next few days to have 90% of them up and then we're just adding a few months until the project really ends and so we hope to keep adding those as well. The essays come in HTML format that you can download. Some of them are practical and some of them are simply practical. This is one of my favorite essays, of course, by Dougie Frontman. And it really shows you how to improve your to have the best possible video products with several really good examples. In addition to the essays being in HTML, you also have PDF versions that people can download and use for educational purposes. Now there's lots of different ways to search through all the essays and get to the information. You can do it by categories, they've all been categorized. We're really interested in preservation to see which essays would be most just really interested more in the technical aspects of oral history. You can do that. We're also going to take the essays so that there's a very specific information about particular topics like oral history as part of the task. You can come here and it's really bad, you not only get to see Doug live, but you also get to see him as an animated cartoon here. As I said, what we're really trying to do is not only to help people out by finding what would be the best possible recorder in any situation, but we found out over the years working with scholars that if you ask the right kind of questions, you can actually give you good metadata. If you ask the right kind of questions, you can actually get them. Doug here actually has a number of different questions that you have to be thoughtful about as you start thinking about what is going to be the best recorder for me. Once you've made all your selections then you can simply go to the bottom and do a search and come back with the different kinds of results of different records and what Doug has done has simply gone in and done a review of the different kind of recorders that he likes for this. But it makes his life a lot simpler because this does tend to be one of the questions that we give most often is what kind of equipment. We're actually going to do one for video recorders and one for microphones as well. We'll be up soon. One of the things that we're most proud of that you saw a little bit of in the presentation was the oral histories that we're doing. We have a number of them up now and a number more. They're really well done. They not only have excellent information on a lot of different topics that deal with oral history curation but they're also really good examples of how to do oral history. I think we have about seven of them up and several more are going to be coming over the next month or so as we get those edited. We also have a section that one of the things that we realized with our website and this is where we really want your help to kind of take a look at the site and what to do. We're going to be making playlists in a sense or ways in which to access the kind of information you want. So if you're working a museum we can have kind of a tour through the site for a museum professional. If you're an oral historian just starting out we can have kind of a tour for that particular person as well. One of the things that we do want you to visit and of course you can add to is our wiki. The wiki is really collected together all the information over the last couple of years that we found in oral history online. It gives some exemplary sites but it really just lists all the sites and if you find something missing or not there you can always add it yourself or send it to us and we'll be happy to add it as well. And last but not least of course we've added a lot of resources to the thing. The wiki has most resources. We just have some featured ones on this site. Most of the stuff on this site is just the stuff that was developed for this particular project. You can also follow us on Twitter, you can follow us on Facebook we always love the social media and that's about it. I'll be looking forward I'm going to kind of turn this over to Doug and then I'll be looking forward to answering specific questions at the end about some of the things that we found out and some of the best practices that we have. Okay Dean so if you want to just hit stop sharing at the top then Doug can go for it. And so we'll shift gears a little bit can you all hear me? Sounds great. So we're going to shift gears and talk about one aspect of oral history in the digital age not an upper case which is the grant project but lower case oral history in the digital age which is an initiative that we created over here at the Nunn Center. We began it several years ago that creating something that we called ohms I'm going to share my screen here so I'll be asking and let me know if my screen is shared because I can't see Yep you're on. Excellent Okay so we created as a direct response to as a direct response to what we were recognizing in sort of online oral history and that was in that oral history was difficult to use. There are challenges for users online to oral history. I'm going to slide in my little PowerPoint here just to see a couple slides but it really is the idea of as most content management systems or collection management systems are designed for photos they really when it comes to the use of time-based media or linear media and so you put on this long oral history interview you can put up a transcript and very few in fact most interfaces just do not connect typically a search result with a moment in the audio or the video so we really tried to focus on that the first version that we created in ohms was transcript based and so what it did was I'm going to just sort of an early example of ohms here with a clip with Martin Luther King an interview conducted by Robert Penn in 1954 so essentially what you had with ohms here is the transcript on the side here you have the ability to integrate your search in your transcript and you're listening to it right now and you search in the word revolution and what you get when you search on the word revolution is you get the idea that it's going to get feedback that you're able to choose social revolution and it takes you to the 17th minute here where you're able to get to just the revolution that you want to get to the transcript and you're listening about seven hundred interviews on the Kentucky Digital Library using this transcript technology and essentially the way the back end was a little bit like a video game where you actually go in here and listen to it and as you're listening to it it takes you to the 10 seconds and you can find the corresponding moment in that and as soon as the minute a bell rings and you click and you've just embedded timecode it takes you to the next minute and you're able to find the transcript and when the bell rings you embed the second minute marker there and you really can mark up in a matter of minutes and prepare it for which we started off showing you with the king transcript and so the idea with that is that with OMS you're able to take on these complex information packages whether it's metadata, whether it's a transcript and connect it to the corresponding moment in the interview and so we had about seven or eight hundred interviews up there and felt pretty good about ourselves but the problem with the system is that it costs a lot of money to transcribe and very few people were actually transcribing so we've begun to sort of move it into a more of a less transcript focus and move it into indexing focus and I'll show you a little bit how we've done that. Now indexing is nothing new we've been doing it for maybe thirty years with our old cassettes where you would do interviews and here's an example of the new version of OMS that allows you to do an index. Now this is the front end so this is one of our veteran interviews so if you search on the word marine it takes you to every time he mentions the word marine in a segment with a click you click on the bootcamp segment and with a click you're taken to that moment in the video. The idea behind the indexing is Cheerios and what I mean by that is if you go to the grocery store and you ask them where are the Cheerios they're going to say what aisle ten they're not going to give you this detailed box by box layout of where Cheerios lies on the shelf. It's just aisle ten once you're in aisle ten it's up to you the researcher to go find the Cheerios and so I can do an index like this using the OMS system for about twenty dollars per interview hour it takes about a hundred dollars per interview hour for me to do the same treatment with a transcript simply after you after you transcribe something you always have to go back through the first draft and make sure that the final draft doesn't have these agreeers that are going to be embarrassing and cause potential misquoting and so the idea is cutting my cost almost by a tenth of two hundred dollars per interview hour twenty dollars per interview hour by doing an index we're still enhancing access to that interview just doing it much less expensive and I think the idea is you know that we have to think about the users. Oral history is hard to use and these are basically the future users and they're really you know smart and brilliant future users these ones in particular and when you know users aren't happy this is essentially what you get you know this is the user's matters we know that in this kind of web programming and web presentation of our materials and so as we move into the indexing to show you a quick clip of what the indexing looks like on the back end this is a clip of Elmer T. Lee who is a master distiller at Buffalo Trace Distillery and he's talking about in this excerpt basically this is the process. As you're listening you're able to sort of tag and with each tag that you create you're wrapping up a bunch of metadata and connecting it to the corresponding moment so you can do partial transcript you can do a title for the segment in fact you have to do a title for the segment it's the only required field you can put Library of Congress subject headings in of course there is no Library of Congress subject heading for Bourbon the only Library of Congress subject heading near Bourbon is Whiskey which is a fairly serious issue that I'd like to take up with the Library of Congress but you could do a synopsis you can even do GPS coordinates hyperlinks that then go out to the front end so this is the back end of OMS this is the part that as you I'm going to speed you through here as you prepare this index here he's talking about tasting good bourbon if you wonder why he's feeling his mouth he's telling you where the good taste buds are to swish the bourbon around in his mouth but each of these segments contains a bunch of that metadata you then save in the back end of OMS and export and that takes us to the front end of OMS which is the new version of OMS really is going to hook up to the viewer to your content management system the idea wasn't you wouldn't be lured out of your repository in order to take advantage of this technology so OMS is now open source and it's going to start being rolled out to our partners on this IMLS grant that is not only going to make OMS free in a giveaway but explore ways that we can take OMS and actually make it work with your system so we're going to work out of the box after this grant is through with Content DM, OMECA, Cora, and Drupal for start and basically it's going to be on the front end plug-in that works with these systems and so the idea is again this open source idea of not trying to make you use a different repository and not requiring a whole lot of programming on your end because that's always been the problem with open source and so OMS is programmed using very vanilla PHP that's heavily annotated so if you want to customize it and make it look like your own you can. It's going to be easy to implement, they're going to be wonderful tutorials created as part of this national leadership grant to say oh you're using Content DM and you want to use OMS well here's how you use it on the back end and here's how you connect it to the front end which is pretty exciting so the idea again is not to make you lure you out of your current repository but to really sort of work in your environment create something that is something that you'll be able to export on your own trying to get back to my oh there we go really create something that you can save as metadata that's going to be long term and eventually save as metadata that can actually be used in a different system if OMS is working out for you but you already have these indexes created and you'll be able to just sort of come up to whatever system you're using in a very easy fashion so a little brief presentation of OMS and how it works the national leadership grant that we're working on right now is literally developing the connections to the other CMSs over the next year and we're working with specific partners to test out those connections using things like Content DM and Cora and OMECA and Drupal so stay tuned on OMS it's really exciting and again a lot of people were complaining about saying the challenge was money the idea now is that we're exploring ways in a workflow where interviewers are creating the metadata now that we use to accession interviews well you know why not have the same interviewer index that interview because that interviewer knows it better than anybody else so creating a workflow where the interviewer turns the interview over to the archive the interview goes up into OMS and the interviewer can then log on at Starbucks and index their interview if they'd like while tipping on a latte so I am very excited that we can actually put an interview online within hours of conducting the interview if we were so motivated to do that as opposed to the weeks, months and what it's to be is years and decades for fundraising to raise the kind of money to transcribe an oral history collection we have interviews with over 500 interviews with veterans World War II veterans who those interviews aren't online because we've been waiting for all this time to transcribe for fundraising to transcribe now we're working to get these up online we're able to put online 10 interviews for the cost of one anyway very excited about it and I'm happy to talk more about it through questions but I wanted to stop at this point and ask and open the floor I think is the next thing yeah thanks so much and so yeah if you have a question on something you've heard before heard them referenced before just type it into the chat box and I've signed a few out of there to start us off and we can always if you want to go back to the website reference the websites again Dean or Doug just holler at me and we will share your screen again but just one thing that comes to mind is since this has so much great potential do you have through either the matrix URL or the non-center URL that I shared do you have ways for people to sign up for any kind of email list or do you do it through Facebook I mean how will you sort of let people know that this information or this technology is now available or at least open for beta testing so essentially right now we're working with specific partners so it's not quite open for beta testing at this point and if you go to I had it up I can't I'm looking here noncenter.org slash elms is just really going to be a and I can email or post that link but yeah we will have that link available on the oral history and digital age site it'll be on blogs it'll be tweeted and the word will go out when it's when it's ready for that phase of testing and usage but right now we're still we're still fixing a few bugs on the back end and we're working are going to be working with I think 10 partner organizations and institutions that are doing oral history and I'm hoping as we move into fall that we can start taking on more beta testers so great and this is just a quick question I think probably for Dean maybe someone noticed that their online website wasn't listed correctly on the wiki so should I just email you offline yeah you can just send it to matrix.msu.edu okay so that's matrix I'll put that in the chat box and then someone wants to know is it possible to create a playlist or to annotate with the new owns portal well on the website people can actually create playlists they can subscribe to the site create their own playlist and send it to us and then we're going to bet things for publication but that's more than possible yes okay that was a question or was that an owns question you can answer it as well yeah again owns is it possible to use or create playlists at this point owns was really originally designed as a sort of repository to or not a repository but a tool to enhance access to an entire interview what I think will be the next phase will be putting in say embed codes in individual segments so people could actually do exactly that create playlists so somebody could say host a digital exhibit dynamically pooling from an entire interview one excerpt that they particularly liked and so I think that's kind of where we're we're moving in that'll be in the next phase once we get it hooked up with these other systems I think is to then take it more out of the realm of just focusing on archival collections but then having a little bit of fun for hooking up and getting these excerpts the ability to be used and powering them to be used in these really cool environments thank you I wondered if you one of you could speak to Karen Brewster's question about ADA requirements for equal access to the need for transcripts and for audio well we're actually going to have full transcripts of the materials that appear on oral history in the digital age project but that is you know a major problem for institutions one of the unique things that we have on our site that you know I thought I was talking forever because first there was a video of me then I was talking but I realized I kind of cut things short one of the things that's really exciting about our oral history and digital age project is we specifically had someone on the project Brad Raker who is an audiologist and works with people with hearing impairment and he actually wrote several essays for the website that talks about precisely these issues great so people just check the site out for that particle on the other side one I think thing is hopeful actually we're submitting another project along the lines for oral history and I think addresses some of the issues that people have been bringing up in terms of cost and ohms I think can play a really good role in this I think the future is to have you know crowdsourcing to have people you know actually as Doug said you don't have to be part of the organization to do the transcribing so you know if we can get people out there to actually participate and do the transcribing for us we'll be able to make more oral history collections available. Karen I mean as somebody who manages a major oral history collection you know I've got about 8500 interviews and I see a bunch of people on this list who have 8000 interviews 9000 interviews in their collections and her question is really in some ways the difficult thing with oral history is that it isn't truly idea compliant until it's written but the money that it would take to take an 8000 interview collection and transcribe it is astonishing in the millions to transcribe those and so I struggle with that I am committed we originally designed Ohms to be a tool for transcribed interviews and so I'm absolutely committed to continuing to put emphasis on that but the reality of it is is we just can't provide access to these interviews through text for as a blanket policy because we just simply can't afford it so as we instead of waiting for that at least we're providing sort of one level of enhanced access by indexing segments in those as opposed to transcribing and somebody did ask that Will Ohms the viewer and it does on the back end and my program wasn't able to get me a clip to show you but it actually does allow you to index an interview have that index up for years and then hey guess what we just raised money for this collection we're going to transcribe it and we add a transcript in and you can toggle back and forth between the two elements so you'd be able to look at an index first which is wonderful because then you get the idea of getting an overview of what is this interview about before you dive into a full keyword search of the transcript so you will be able to use both and we are actually experimenting with a collection that we have with interviews in Haiti with victims of the survivors of the 2010 earthquake there in Haitian Creole we're actually indexing and doing a bilingual index which is going to be pretty cool to actually have the ability to cross language barriers with the system so. And then this is again where we can think about the digital age kind of bringing together the oral historian and the curator one of the things we'd like to do with Ohms is also make it a personal media organizer so that oral historians could use it for their own collections and then they would be able to index they would be able to do transcripts so that when they actually turn over their collections they're already a much richer and easier collection for museums or libraries or archives to actually do something with them great it is interesting I can just ask another question about about the level of indexing but I mean I think on the chat and I think it is interesting as we move in Ohms export a very straightforward XML very straightforward even a CSV if you wanted to export it so that it really the idea of being really committed for the metadata that you create an index interview being completely compatible with whatever collection management tool you're using or whatever content management system you're using is really important to us and so I think the idea of the level of indexing that you do Ohms is really up to you we wanted to create the sort of vehicle but you could go in and just create titles which would essentially just create a table of contents you could do that within minutes and that is one level of enhancing access to an interview but if you go in and sort of do the deep description where you're going to go in and create titles you're going to do a partial transcript you're going to write lengthy synopses and you know 15 key words to describe these segments that will take usually you know we've gone through and our estimates are about three hours per interview hour to do that but but the idea of it being a flexible tool is really important so that people can adapt it to their own specifications. So some of the programs that you're seeing on the screen in these questions like past perfect content DM is it moose arc that it's right now is part of the original grant as well as Cora, Omeka and content DM and Drupal but the the idea is past perfect really should have been on that first list I think because I'd really like to reach especially folks who are in the museum world and using real history and so I think we'd be open to being at a past perfect partner right now but really just you know the idea would be up to the past perfect people too if they're willing to contribute to a sort of test install of that or development installation of that but it we're really open to other ideas but I think we had to start somewhere with the grant so we've got these first five picked out going to focus on those initially and then at that point I think it's really exciting because I think there's a lot of opportunities there great and did you, did we address all of Misha Griffith's question about the transcribing and indexing functions being available at both transcribing and transcribed? Yeah they both will be available in the same interview you can go back and forth. Okay great and then what about Steph's question would you take into consideration the possibility to cut fragments and link them to citations and digital publications? Yeah I think that was the idea of taking those same index points and giving folks the ability to either embed them into say a website on their end or create a citation to just that segment or a hyperlink just directly to that one segment. Again that's going to be I think part of phase two in development of it but that's exactly where I'm thinking we're going to go with it. The more we can automate I think the better because we have a very small staff, we've got a very small budget so I think about what other people would want I think out of a system like this and that's what I would want so. Mary asked a good question about the ADA if it's federally funded, archived does it need to be ADA compliant? Right now the rulings tend to be that you need to make your best effort but they realize that there isn't funding to do a lot of these things and still make it available for educational resources that are used in the classroom they have to be but not necessarily for archives online. And then what about Mary Best's question about will alums be able to be usable with a screen reader for the visually impaired? That's a great question and we're going to sort of move into that as we sort of at the moment the Kentucky Digital Library in some ways it's really not about alums as much as I think it's about the system that you're using. So alums the viewer is very straight forward and should be no problem in terms of taking. Go ahead. The PHP writes the HTML so a screen reader would be able to handle reading what's produced. It would or would not It would. Okay. Did you all see Best Jacobi's question? Is there a matrix of different server tools and media streaming practices? I guess that would be back on them the World History and the Digital Age website. That was an essay that was not commissioned but was we were hoping to get and it didn't come in and so some of the other essays inside of them actually do deal with that issue but I would love that too and so I'll probably just crank out that as a quick two to three page thing in terms of but it would be great to have something that people are able to sort of share there with their tool because a lot of us are using different tools for media streaming options of World History and so that's something that really should be added to the essays I think. I'm supposed to write that essay and I will. Is that you? Sorry. That's good. Yes, there is going to be an essay on all the different possible tools that can be used and specifically those that alums is going to work in a plug-in environment but you know I think just the way things are going in terms of the digital environments and the digital humanities is that you're really creating more of a plug-in environment instead of saying here's the one standard tool that everyone has to use. We need a tool that we can do link data, we can do sharing of resources, we can move between the different kinds of tools if we have XML output and things like that. Great. Virginia in LA asked what is your opinion of video recording a life history oral history? I'm not entirely sure what she means by that. I actually wrote an essay about this that was basically audio or video on the OHDA site so audio or video is the title because in some ways that's what I ask people in the beginning of I'm going to start a project what are some of the decisions that you have to make. One of those major questions is are you going to use audio or video to record? We're living I have a couple different views on this that I do think that the ability if you're going to sit down with somebody over 40 hours and conduct a life history interview I'm not sure if that's what she means but the idea of life history in one interview is really difficult. I like the idea of balancing audio and video because the reality is we live in a video oriented, an increasingly video oriented world. What I tend to recommend is let's do 35 of those hours on audio which is going to be really comfortable, it's going to be really easy, technically it's going to be really more user friendly and then on the recording side and do 5 of those interviews or 5 hours of those interviews on video maybe do because then you do get a little bit of the bling of video. Honestly the video oral history interviews that we're conducting are getting extremely heavy use in comparison to the audio and so I do think the balance is beginning to tilt. I mean the iPhones are recording 1080p high depth video and so we really are I think starting to see a tipping of the balance in favor of video but video causes all kinds of logistical concerns and it's a preservation nightmare and so you can probably do 10 audio interviews for the cost of one video interview I think ultimately and so when you factor in all of the costs of proper lighting and the equipment and the preservation and so I tend to like audio really a lot for large projects but I also like to see a video aspect of those but there are projects like Art from Combat to Kentucky project which is a fully video project and that seems to be something that really resonates with people. Yeah I mean there's two different sizes, one is that people do tend to use the video interviews a lot more than they do simply the audio interviews but if you're using it primarily for research and things like that then the audio can be easier. What's interesting and working with their audiologist is people don't realize the amount of information that comes with facial expressions and that you know how much more information you really get than just simply listen to the audio. The audio gives you much richer text than you get from a printed transcript. My favorite example was from a friend of mine who runs a Supreme Court collection of materials and you know his favorite thing is Johnson when he's talking and being recorded you can hear every once in a while he flushes the toilet and you couldn't actually had the audio recording of Johnson but he would often use that as a way to scare people. But anyways I was having dinner with a couple friends in New York this past week and we were having this conversation and one of the guys works very heavily with YouTube and the other one is sort of one of these computer programmer visioneers and we posed the question to him and his response, the computer guy in fact his name is Jonah, his first response was of course the eyes distract the ears and if you're talking about sitting down for a two hour interview and you're listening to a two hour interview it's much easier for your mind to wander whereas if you're sitting down to take in a two hour interview on video and I really thought about that that was really a moment sort of like well yeah actually that's true I can watch a movie and my attention doesn't wander but when it comes to an audio say a two hour audio experience I'm going to be multitasking all over the map and so it really caused me to think this week in terms of the balance cognitively and in terms of how do I interact with media and I love audio I'm an audio guy and I just I love audio and I think you can do a lot more in terms of volume of interviewing with audio just simply because of logistics cost and preservation but I think we're starting to become so affordable and so good and so ubiquitous that I think archives I think should start sort of making preparations to begin taking in larger quantities of video then I think we're ready to take in now. And Teresa that's a good question that yes one big problem with video is there's still many people especially older people are very afraid of cameras that can be very disruptive so that has to be taken into consideration as well. And that's why I like the hybrid approach the idea of you know we're going to sit down and we're going to interview somebody you know the first interviewer the first three interviews you know be nice comfortable audio interviews and if you really get a sense that this is something that you know we could put on video then you know and of course it all depends on what your outcome is that's one question that we ask in the OHDA project in you know 75% of the essays it's like knowing why are you doing this project are you doing this project for something that might have a visual component someday understanding that yes well that might be the case well then maybe I should make a different decision but no I'm actually doing this just for archival purposes now that you know whatever you turn into the archive is going to be in the future reused by somebody we hope but you know I think at this point you have to make a decision as to what you use and I hate coming in having not sat with somebody and having any kind of rapport with them turning on a light kit sitting them in a chair hooking them up to the machine and starting the video experience I think that it's harder to develop a rapport with them in that setting and so I would like that video interview to be the second interview or a follow up I mean one thing that we found that was really interesting along the same lines I was thinking of ADA used to be back about 6 or 7 years ago used to be really popular to run audio alongside of a running transcript we found out that you know one finding is that's a really bad thing because people actually read at a different speed than they listen so it's not really a helpful thing but having the transcript available and not running alongside of the audio can be very useful and there's other smaller findings like people like to have the actual media remained embedded in the website and not pop out into its own box so it can be contextualized by other you know information the metadata and understanding it Barbara from Evanston brings up a good point of even doing still photo and audio can be certainly affordable and an easy way to sort of segue into that visual element. Mayor Marsha Clark just added a nice thing too as well to let the interviewer make the choice they might not realize until you get the lights on and they're sitting in the chair that video is somewhat uncomfortable but I think that it's always good to empower the narrators or the interviewees with those decisions because we're going to be representing them so they should have a say in that I think. Great and what about Steph's question about what is your feedback on how people are using oral histories did you pull on any research that has been done about what preferences people have for access and interface or is there things you've learned through just your network that you've created on this project? Do you want me to? I have some things to do but why don't you start out with our own system here at the University of Kentucky. It has done wonders in terms of upping the usage so we used to brag that 500 researchers would use our collections each year and now when we launched interviews up in the own system there was about 10,000 in the first month and a half we're using our online collections now of course we launched that online collection our first owns collection was a University of Kentucky basketball collection that we launched on the verge of the University of Kentucky basketball season so it got a lot of numbers from all over the world but the consistent numbers that are coming back are seeing that we're getting our interviews being used now one thing about putting them online is we don't have a great sense for how they're being used you do lose a little bit of control in that sense and so I'd love to see your feedback mechanisms created for understanding why are you in Singapore listening to an oral history interview about the University of Kentucky basketball The other thing that's really important is greater flexibility we found is really key to making them more useful to people people like to be able to download things for later use like a podcast so that they don't have to be tied to the computer to listen or to see it they do like the mobile experience the mobile experience I think is becoming one of the most important aspects of this so to be able to create some kind of app that will interface with your system can be very useful for enhancing access as well great well I wanted just we have a few more minutes for questions and a couple more that that people have put into the chat so we're going to get to those but I did want to just put up on the screen our link for the evaluation for today's presentation webinar hold on let me just reduce our screen size here a minute and if you can click on this link it's going to open another screen in your browser but if afterwards when we're done if you don't mind filling out that quick survey it's not long and it really helps us in planning future events so I appreciate you filling that out I was going to ask Judith's question from Buffalo about LLC subject headings and control vocabularies did you see that question Dean or Doug? The own system you know is all about flexibility so we have two descriptive metadata fields that you can fill out and add to one is subjects and one is keywords we just use that as a the non-center for you know subjects we do control vocabularies key words is for our uncontrolled vocabularies our true sort of tags but anybody can interpret those two descriptive fields differently now we do have the capability and to upload an individual Tsaris and that will auto fill so if we upload our Tsaris on Appalachia for an Appalachian related project that we would be indexing anytime you type APP it will suggest all of the Appalachian related terms and so that way if you are sort of kind of doing a where you have 10 people indexing the same collection you have some way to control what terms they're going to actually use in that description so we do have the ability to upload the Tsaris for subjects and keywords you can upload LC terms if you want but again we try to keep things flexible so we don't force you to use LC terms or you upload whatever the Tsaris you want to upload and are able to then take advantage of that. Thanks and then Mary Ames Booker in Wilmington North Carolina said we have digitized video oral histories and would like to begin sharing with the public who visit our site do you address that so I guess is that I guess playing things in an exhibition environment? One of the essays that Dean is going to write is an essay about different approaches to presenting oral history because there are different approaches. There's the purely archival of the repository approach I want to serve up my repository to you that is not typically the popular usage so there's more of a curated I'm going to put together an exhibit and so there's a thematically grouped collection that tends to get presented and so that different platforms like OMECA or Excel at sort of the creation of exhibits but we're starting to also see the idea of a website approach that I'm just going to I'm going to create a website for my project and those are happening over and over again there's a wonderful essay in the OHDA collection about a website an experience that this community has had in doing a project and creating a website using WordPress and so yes there are definitely essays that are going to address that when you come into this exhibit so what are my options for getting people connecting people to my stuff? And then again one of the things that makes us the simplest nowadays especially for museums and people busy in museums is to actually do hybrid systems where you have it available on your website but it's also a mobile application so that people walking into your building can download the podcast, download the oral history and listen to it on their phone or you can have very cheap to build iPad installations that people can then play things so there's really a lot of different ways that you can make use of the same resource if you think in terms of a more mobile environment and not have to build these big bulky kiosks in order to do it. Great and Jill in Alaska, Kodiak Alaska mentioned meeting some advice and instruction on artistic direction when doing a video and I think you mentioned Dean that there is information on the website an essay about setting up that video shoot, is that correct? Actually Doug you should probably answer that question what do you do with a person wearing a white shirt against the white wall under fluorescent lights? And don't wear stripes I created the essay on the lighting of an interview there are innumerable resources online about framing your oral history or your video, filmmakers and filmmaking websites so we sort of stopped short because we stopped short at lighting and achieving good lighting because there's an endless supply of potential for artistically and that's honestly one of the rubs of video because the 75% of video for oral history tends to be done by people who don't know how to do good video so a lot of the video that the Nun Center does is outsourced to videographers who have those good eyes and I think that that is important backgrounds having busy backgrounds and having light sources that are placed in bad places is really very common but then again you also get stuck having to do an interview in a place that you can't control and so you've got to figure out how to best use your camera to compensate for a very low-lighting situation or a busy background and so that's really hard and so we don't and I'd like to see that be somewhere in the future where we can grow into that level of specificity. I've got great examples of bad video and I'm going to put together a briefcase study using those examples of what bad video looks like. The harder essay to write is what is good video because you don't really know that until you see it and so there are some basic rules in videography that are pretty clear and so we should probably put those up there. One of the things that we really kind of focused on and I think it began the whole talk today is we're not really talking about high-end video where you get videographers to come in because they know their business. We really try to address when you don't have a lot of funds and you want to do the best possible job you can under those conditions and that's for this kind of audience we're addressing. Okay thanks. Looks like a couple more questions a couple more comments on transcripts did you see the one from Dennis and I feel like you dressed up pretty well about the majority of our interviews come in without transcripts simply because transcripts are either really expensive or time-consuming and so the majority of interviews that we accession each year do not have transcripts that come with it. I would like to see in the next six months the majority of interviews that do come in are indexed so that the interviewer or director is indexing those interviews when they come into the archive but the expectation of having them transcribed is the expectation again of transcribing having the crowd source the transcripts is really difficult because transcription is very difficult to do and get it correct and it's also very subjective where do you put a comma that matters I think in terms of and potentially could very much change the meaning so I mean the idea of transcripts as the item you know we've gotten away from the transcript as the item because transcript is really just a representation of the recorded event and so putting the majority of our focus into curating that recording hopefully we get a transcript but that transcript is really just seen as in some way the finding aid it's enhancing access just a little bit. I think I'd like to say before we go here and it's really important I appreciate all the people who came to listen to us today but I really do ask that favor that you visit the site and then you give your criticism but also there's still several months of the project left and there's a number of things that we can still address so if there's specific issues that you would like us to address specific essays or questions that would be helpful to you don't be afraid to suggest them to us we'd be happy to make that information available or gather it for you but as I said we really pulled together a lot of really good information over the years you know it's just hundreds and hundreds of best practice sites so we'll be able to find things that we can put it together for you. That's great and I do really appreciate your willingness to bring us into the project at this stage I know it is a lot of bravery when something's not you know it's a work in progress to be so publicly forward about it but it's great to hear about all of this work you've done we really appreciate the years of work and all of your expertise and picking the best resources on the web and making it put into one place where it can be really useful for people and we can't wait for the OMS software to be officially launched and available it sounds like it'll really work for a lot of people and make their work a lot more effective and efficient. It sounds like Doug you got to Barbara's question about blogs. Yes she has blogs are good places to put things and they're great I think for short term access type of things and to highlight things and show off what you're doing but they're not good repositories that doesn't mean that a blog infrastructure like WordPress can't make a good website they can they can make phenomenal websites and so I think the idea of I think it's really strong to think about the role of exhibits blogs repositories you know that I think really pushing people to have a sort of more long term focus that typically a website that somebody creates is not a long term preservation solution it's a short term access option at some point WordPress is going to be upgraded to a new version and you're going to have to you know continually curate that website and so the idea of a website typically is really more just sort of an access point so I like to see any kind of exhibit any kind of blog any kind of web based tool working with a repository that model of you can always get back to the raw archival thing that oral history interview but beyond that the digital possibilities for disseminating your stuff are just endless you know now e-publications you know you know just podcast, video, people who you know we're doing wonderful things with an annotating video on YouTube there's a wonderful tool called Popcorn that brings together in video an amazing sort of creating contextual links from within a video so if somebody is talking about bourbon it's going to connect you to you know resources about bourbon now it's not going to give you the bourbon but it's going to connect you to resources about bourbon as that person is experiencing the video and Popcorn is really exciting in terms of those kind of possibilities so but those tools aren't necessarily we have to remember and just kind of remind ourselves that there is this archival underpinning that needs to be covered we need to to make sure that these interviews are being curated digital preservation is really complex any of you who are doing it know it is a really complex process we cover a lot of it in the OHDA article it's sort of not the sexy side of oral history but it is the important side because we want to make sure that these things can be played in 15 years let alone 50 years and so it takes active engaged curation process to do that so I'd like to have you know as we explore all these exciting possibilities just a little underlying reminder that this needs to be properly curated I just have to answer Mary's question about if you put audio online and loud people play can you protect it from being copied and the absolute answer is no it is no and Mary Beth that's really interesting because I think that I've got a theory on this and that is that that in some ways the archive putting that full interview online sure you can download it and students can then clip a piece out of it and you know what actually you know Photoshop for audio you can actually patch pieces of an audio interview together and make that person sound like they said something that they didn't say but what I love about an oral history archive putting that interview online is that we're putting out the sanctions version so we're creating a version that we have not edited and that will always be a reference point for anybody else who does make a copy and use it for some other purpose and so there is kind of a cool sort of thing about the idea of okay well somebody might be nervous about having their interview go online but in some ways having their interview go online it's an entirety serves then as the sort of protective device I think a reference point for what was actually said in that interview as people start to slice and dice and take these moments and begin to separate them out from the original context that's bound to happen there's nothing stopping that but I think the idea of always having that full version up there that can serve as a comparison baseline is really cool. And I guess one last question from Mary what about making personal histories of members of organizations a perk or even a requirement for membership I guess it kind of gets the question of this is an endless source of material and how you make decisions about collecting oral histories. The more interviews the better. I think the idea the next comment was that making your requirements might backfire and that's true different people share their stories differently and so I think that's really an important thing I think the more interviews the better and you know if you think you should interview somebody don't wait because no sooner than you wait then you're going to be you're going to be finding yourself realizing it's too late so I think as many interviews as we can conduct the better and as many times as you can partner with an archive to connect to that archive to properly curate that interview the better as well. Great well I want to thank you for your time today everyone and for joining us and really want to thank our speakers Dean Rayberger and Doug Boyd for their time and Bravery coming up to tell us about a project that's in process and is coming is coming is coming and we will help promote this when you're ready. If you'd like to come back and do another webinar we would love to do that seems like it had a lot of interest from the field and a lot of people will be excited to use your information and your resources. So thank you again I want everyone to stay cool this summer but if you are available on July 17th to Tuesday we will be having another live chat in this meeting room and it's going to be on wireless data loggers for environmental monitoring. Again it's free and required just arrive at one o'clock eastern that day on Tuesday July 17th and we'd be delighted to have you and Kevin's put his email up on the chat and you're welcome to put notes in the evaluation about other topics that would be useful in your work. So thanks again for everyone joining us today.