 So good evening to anyone who is watching us remotely and to the few people that are here For the beginning of the meeting in Contoy's we're gonna we are gonna open the meeting downstairs in the busher room and then Do the presentation from the Howard Center? Street outreach team the executive sessions and then we will come back upstairs, but it will all be televised as If we were in this room, we just won't be in this room. So we'll move ourselves downstairs So So so people can hear us, right? Yes, yes We know that because we just know that Um, we know that because we are Unmuted here. I am having a little trouble logging in both places, but we're good. Now. We can start a little bit late. That's it It takes time to organize As long as we're good as long as people can hear us Yes, I think we are good. Okay, so we'll just start the agenda just so we can get to either two on good evening Today is February 21st 2023. Thank you for joining us For those who are here with us. We're in the busher conference room And those who are online for the Burlington city council meeting the time is 5 45 We'll begin our agenda this evening with a motion to adopt Agenda Someone wish to make a motion to adopt the agenda Counselor for me. Thank you so much there's a motion to approve the Agenda by counsel McGee. Is there a second motion counselor Freeman? Thank you so much. Is there any discussion on the motion? Seeing none. All those in favor of the motion, please say aye All right, and he opposed. Please say no That gives us our agenda which leads us to item 2.01, which is a presentation from the Howard center street outreach team We have team with us the outreach team leader and We have a lot in 45 minutes for this item. So we're looking forward to listening To your presentation and then we'll allow ourselves time to ask questions and offer comments Tammy it's been we've been talking about this since I think December So thanks so much for being here. We're all looking forward to hearing and learning about that Your work on the outreach team. Great. Well, thank you for thank you very much everyone for having me My teammates were planning on joining in but they got called out at 5 20. So It was one of those days where it was it was all it was all going well until 10 minutes until time to do it. So It'll be just me I just wanted to Just kind of start with a brief history of the team how we started what we were reacting to Talk about who we are what we do and then just briefly some of the challenges that we have And then of course just whatever questions you guys have or comments or feedback After that will be most welcome um, so a brief history The program started was created in 1999 So back in the 1900s as I like to say At that time there were the The impression of people in the downtown area was that there were a lot of people living in Burlington in the downtown area who were Not connected to services who were in need of services who You know, only they knew where x was that they would go get that service and um And I and there and there really was like a lot of like genuine concern for for people's welfare. There were some elderly people who were living on benches. There were people gloriously psychotic and really struggling there were a lot of people struggling from really awful alcohol use and and there was no mechanism for Getting services to those people, right? Like if they wanted to go to the services then that was fine, but there wasn't really Any model where the services would go to them um, and so the city in conjunction with Howard center created the street outreach team um, which at that time consisted of just one person um, which some of you may remember Matt Young who was my supervisor Um, and so he he was he was the street outreach team beginning in the summer of 2000 And his his charge was to go out and to basically, you know, meet people who were mentally ill Help them get back to services and Help them get on their beds That was actually a quote and I think, you know, we all had a pretty Unsophisticated worldview of what was going on in Burlington at the time um, so Matt Matt got there and Quickly realized that there was a lot more going on to it than than just that and that if he was Actually going to be able to be of any service to the individuals involved in the city at large that he was going to have to take on a lot more than than just that um And so he did um, and he worked from, you know, the summer of 2000 um Up until about the summer of 2002 and I was a merchant at the time and I would see him like zipping up and down the street from from call to call and Then at that point the and and clearly there was more than more than just one person's working work there um, and so in the summer of 2002 UVM MC, which at the time was called Fletcher Allen um Gave the program a grant so that it could be increased to three and a half FTEs So Matt was able to hire staff I ended up being one of them um And you were able to kind of expand what the program did um At that time, you know, we would spend we would sort of like post up on church and cherry, which at that time was where um, all the buses got off so it was like hub everybody came through church cherry That was where everybody was And so we would be there and we would and the police would be there because they always had two officers stationed down now um, and we would see It's not me, right? Okay You know and we would see the officers talking to people and the officers would see us talking to people and Um, eventually the officers would come up and say, you know, I I know you can't I know you can't tell me anything about that person. He's a kippa um But you know, I was just talking to them and I'm worried about them I want to kind of put you on their radar or maybe if you don't know them like let me introduce you to them um, and and this is why So at that point we started we created an informal relationship with the police department I'm sorry. I think I just missed a little bit of that because of the phone call Oh, yeah, sorry. You said something about hippa and then I kind of Okay, so So we would be that's all right. Um, so we would be standing You know talking to people um police officers would be talking to people and then You know, they would they would come over and say, you know, I I know you can't tell me anything about that You are just talking. Yeah That you were just talking to you because of hippa Um, but let me tell you because I'm worried about this person Oh, um I don't and so we developed that kind of relationship where you know, they would introduce us to people that they thought might need services they would Share concerns about behaviors. They had seen the night before or earlier today um and Just kind of working to serve the same because we had a lot of there was a lot of intersection between the people that they countered and the people that we Served and there was a concern about a lot of times they would go out on a call um And it was clear that it was more of a mental health for our social service team as opposed to a police car There wasn't anything they could do so we would try to You know bridge that gap the next day So then the point am I telling you that is that in 2010 then chief mike charling Got some federal funds from the obama administration um through the So-called stimulus funds um and had Some had paid to have which paid to have honor to right pretty much um I think it was just cool at that time um Outreach street outreach workers embedded with the police department So what that enabled us to do was then um, you know, it was a it would then it formalized that relationship, but it gave us a very unique perspective in that we Were then you know able to be at roll call see incidents that came to your velacor Be able to know what was going on And we would also know from the mental health side. What might be going on with the person So what that enables us to do is to do a lot more proactive intervention and support for people um, and it also allows us to reach the whole um other group of people who might not otherwise be served because they are reaching out for help um thinking, you know, like for example um, you know, if somebody is in a manic episode or is um Struggling from some kind of psychosis They might not be aware of that. They might just think that external forces are threatening them. So they would call You're not going to call the first call or they're not going to call Howard center and say j i think i'm having a mental health crisis um So then that referral from police allows us to reach and support that group of people So that's been very um Very valuable to us and and to a whole other vulnerable population um So that's kind of that's how we've gotten where we are right now um, we are presently a team of five outreach workers Um, we are very low barrier. There are no eligibility requirements or disqualifications We are free to the user um There's no formal intake process. There's no opening paperwork. There's no wait list. There's no Nothing like that. If Somebody walks up to us and needs advice or somebody calls us it happens That day or the next day. So we try to be as in the moment as possible um We also try to be a very neutral presence Um, we talk to everyone, right? um When we're downtown We and you see us talking to somebody we could be talking to somebody who's looking for services We could be talking to a community member. We talk to the family or friends of someone who's looking for services Um, we could be talking to police officer. We could be talking to a merchant um So the nice thing about that is that what it does it provides A certain level of anonymity um for a person who would not who might not otherwise want to be seen as As talking to the mental health counselor or the outreach worker or Out themselves as a homeless person or who might just not even see themselves that way Um, so it just it makes it low barrier in that aspect that just talking to us doesn't on his face Make you aligned to any group Um, we operate seven days a week. We are striving for eight eight coverage um We've been we've had that with fits and starts Right now We have eight eight coverage three days a week 10 36 coverage two days a week and nine to four thirty two days a week um in fiscal year Just to give you an idea about our volume Fiscal year 2022 we had about 4 000 contacts with roughly 800 unduplicated individuals um about 2 500 of those were in person 20 of that work was um either de-escalation or responding to a crisis a crisis um, and about 1500 of them 100 of them were by phone or Like a console follow-up kind of call Um So what do we do? um To go back to what matt said we can't can't just say well, we're going to limit ourselves to us Um, we always have to be kind of open to the idea that we're going to meet the person where they are What they need and try to flex With the situation And the environment that we find ourselves in um When we aren't on a call from a community member or a police officer, we're downtown um Meeting people introducing ourselves to people who might be new in town creating relationships checking in Getting a sense of what's going on what the needs might be And what kind of trends are are playing out in the area um Why do we do this um because a lot of the folks that we work with are in a day to day kind of mode um There's not really the luxury of doing a lot of future planning Uh, so what they need they they need it at that moment um, and the window if if somebody in that situation is Finally at a spot where they say i'm i'm ready to make a change or i want to connect x service x service The window for that tends to be very small because then the day-to-day pressures will Mount back up again, and they won't be able to take that time to say i'm going to i'm going to do something proactive with this all So we try to be available. We'll try to be ready um and be there when that happens Also, we find the best way um to do our work in terms of assisting with deescalating people is to have an existing relationship with the person. It's much easier um to come from that from a place of of trust and familiarity than to be this the stranger who arrives on the scene Um, and it helps us to help the folks that we work with stay healthy. Um, and that we are able to Learn and gauge what look what doing well looks like for individuals So that we can be proactive if we start to see that the people that we're working with Are starting to exhibit signs of poor health be it physical or mental health or You know having a recurrence of substance use So that we can Off be there to offer extra extra support or intervention if it's something that they're willing to tolerate um Why downtown because that's where most of the services are and so that's where a lot of people will be um It is still the place where people like to congregate especially vulnerable individuals who who rely on public space um, and it's also, you know a good place for us to be to act as a liaison between folks um and other community members like merchants um Who might not understand the struggle that people are going through so that we can Kind of promote a sense of community And to help combat sort of us versus them mentality um Which I hope I just want to stop and I'm not trying to say that uh merchants are not inclusive I find a lot of them to be really really um Wanting to be helpful of their neighbors And wanting very much to understand and try to help out so um, but there are there are always times when it when Sometimes you need to be able to mediate that um So what is what is a call? So we say when we're not on a call we're down time doing that so Like when we're off on a call we're doing something else So a call is when a person an individual calls for service For themselves or a community member a merchant police or provider Um calls us to a specific location to assist a person access services or address A mental health or a social service concern in the moment and that could be anywhere in Burlington. Um I think a lot of times people have a perception that we only work in the downtown area um We don't get to do a lot of proactive work outside of downtown. Um simply because You got to pick a spot Because Burlington's really really there's only five of us. So we want to possibly be able to get this whole city. So We work proactively downtown, but we do take calls um anywhere in the city um for community members and merchants those calls Which roughly are 10 percent 10 to 15 percent of our work? um Look like concerns about a person's living situation Or their behaviors seeing that someone might be in distress And not really knowing what to do for that person Or how to approach them. So they'll call us um The police will often call us as I said as I said earlier They um to respond with them or instead of them um When there's an incident that is more of a mental health or a social service issue They might also call us or Email us about an incident that occurred in our off hours Um and ask us to follow up um Again, that's a lot of because a lot of people will call At least when they're looking for help I think we've all been kind of had that ingrained, you know call 911 if you don't know what to do um And so a lot of people still call police because they're like, I don't really know who to call Um, and so some of that will get triage to us um Individuals will call us that's about 1300 of our calls. So that's a good bulk um Of the calls that we get are from individuals themselves looking for services Or people who stop us because we always try to be available for people who want to Like ask us a question reach out the street Does it 100 calls 1300 calls day a day so We have over the year over the over the year. Yeah, because it was yeah out of 4100 calls for the year How do I know to call you As opposed to 911 or Howard or how do you know to call me? Well, we're the street outreach team So I see someone in distress. I'm concerned. Yep. Um, I mean if It would depend on what you're seeing. Yeah, right. So if you think it's a medical Medical stress Yeah, right. Um, if you see someone that they're you know, they're not They don't look like they're any physical danger. Um, they don't look like they're endangering other people So there's no weapons But you see someone who looks like they might be struggling and you don't know if it's um mental health or substance use or Or what? Um You can you can always call me tell me what you're seeing run it by me. We'll have a conversation Like if I'm just a citizen, how how do you know? Yes, yes, yes, yes, oh, I see where your eyes are that's a good That's a good question. Um, so we are technically listed on the Howard website. Um And there's been many conversations within Howard about the Howard website Um, you will eventually get triage to us. Okay. Um, do the Howard website Um, and I think also that's also what some people might just call The police because they know the police will dispatch us eventually um, we do Through the marketplace and through the VA and just through like introducing ourselves to new merchants Explain to people like call us as opposed to calling 911. Um, what kind of service was we? Um Can offer but you're right. I mean, I think like for the city as whole There's not like we haven't really developed a really good way to get That was right now. Yeah So providers often will call us if their client is struggling in the community or they or they Are about to be or they've just recently become homeless That the person needs additional advice or kind of consultation on coordinating more services in the last year this has resulted in Calling us to do a lot more welfare checks, which is something that didn't used to do that used to be kind of like a police thing Um But police have have transitioned out of out of taking welfare checks Um, so we do a lot of those those are for people who don't show up therapy appointments don't show up to the clinic um You know they Neighbor just hasn't seen them in a long time. Um Um So we do a lot more of those through providers now as well as a lot more Just work with first call from Chitton County to to meet with and to coordinate assessments mental health assessments for people who may be in need of involuntary hospitalization Um, which I'll get to that a little bit more in depth later on. Um So and how do we respond to these? I mean sometimes it's a matter of Just trying to provide people with basic needs like tents sleeping bags helping them secure IDs um sometimes phones Helping them reconnect to or connect with the provider um Triage the situation and then refer them to the right service. Um the The good news is we have a lot of options in Burlington. There's a pretty vast and comprehensive social service net Um, it can be confusing Um, how to navigate it. Um A lot of it has become specialized, which is good. Um, but again that Kind of makes it a little difficult for people to know which Which which shelter they should be calling or which? you know, which silver House should they be looking at? Um, so we'll try to help them Assess that and get them in the right spot Um, and then again, you know, if someone is struggling with suicidal ideation or homicidal ideation Um, if we can get them to voluntarily go up to the ED or do that And if not, we'll arrange with first call or An involuntary assessment. Oh the assessment has to be sort of somewhat Cooperative, but um started that process with first call for Chittenden County to to see about Um, like E. E. Lawrence and that whole process. Um, and again, um Um, so so that's how we would respond to those kinds of things. Um, and and Again by just knowing What um, it looks like when a person is doing well Um, then we kind of know When someone is struggling, you know when we need to like pull in more supports more interventions And hopefully we can coordinate a more proactive Care or treatment for a person when they're in nature themselves so that we can kind of Avoid any really invasive kinds of interventions further on down the line um So then on to some the challenges so um kind of touching on People feeling suicidal or homicidal um And I think, you know, we see this nationwide in the news. Um, you know needs and um People's behaviors and symptoms just kind of across the board. It's everything is more acute Um, people are feeling many more pressures on many more levels of society Um, and that and yet the systems are kind of drying up um and um Other Systemic pressures are kind of mounting like inflation and things like things like that Um, for example, like I was talking to joe Um before everyone got here, um You know, I'm personally my my fear about this spring is that a lot of the covet benefits that were extended Are going to dry up And there's not anything really coming down the pike to replace them And we have a host of other pressures like inflation All these other things that are um Kind of mounting and so I worry about What will there be and how we're going to be able to respond Um to folks and for example, um housing, I think we all know the the esd system um Will be at or transition in the transitional housing program system will be ending Um in march, if not june, which june would be great, but that's still only three months Um for health, we've got, you know, medicaid benefits that were extended during the pandemic are drying up so that's thousands of people that were Were covered are going to be covered. Um, and I see Four people needing care. So the idea that less people are going to be able to get cares pretty frightening Um, everyone eats which has been a huge huge huge Boom to the community Will be Going I'm not sure what will be picking up that slack Um federal benefits are going to be The ones that were being that were expanded before During covid are going to be collapsed. So that's going to be a problem The buses that were great for everybody to be able to get around and Have a sense of freedom and be able to to be able to get to the clinic and to be able to get to therapy And you know all these places um Are not going to be free anymore um and you know eight dollars for a trip back and forth to St. Alvin's or even three dollars a day cross down for burlington Is pretty significant when you're living on You know less than 800 a month um So and I see a lot of people who um Are currently only able to access care through the emergency system either because They lack the capacity to plan ahead um You know kind of in that day to day mode. So the idea of i'm going to go To the doctors get preventative care is just not on the table because they're in a real survival mode And the emergency system is at capacity Um and not showing any signs of that easing up Overdoses are just are climbing. There's more and more deadly and treatment resistant substances um There's a lack of health beds some substance use beds being um built into the system and Um the staffing crisis just seems to keep getting like this So even the places that there are services I don't see staffing um So those are the challenges Um We are trying to support people to getting to the voluntary services that are available We also are working Very much lately a lot of what our role is to is to support the emergency services to support First call for chitin and county to support uvm and cdb and social work Um as they are working with people To support the fd and vpd is the call to people And I see that As becoming less and less of a viable solution for people Um because the systems are at capacity and they're not they're not intended for long-term care anyway um So those are the challenges um And then just this for the for the trends and then just specific to my program um One of the challenges is that you know, like I said in the beginning the great news is it's free um, we don't charge um And we never will um because if we did become, you know, did become a charge for fee be bill for Service thing and we'd have to do open paperwork and have to be all this taking them personal information and it would just It would just ruin the whole low barrier system So but we struggle, um we Had during coven we got we got funding for a fifth and sixth position We were able to fill the fifth position Um, we never were able to find a qualified candidate for the sixth position Um, but that was through SAMHSA funding that grant runs in may um agency has decided to just eat the fifth position and they're going to run at a deficit Um, so we will be able to keep our fifth person Um, but right now until we find other Funding we will not be able to get our sixth person, which means we cannot go to eight to eight staffing right now Which kind of comics is our whole desire to be able to support The emergency responses during the times that they have consistently In surveys that we give that they need us to be there at least age eight if not later um I think I want to Okay, I'm going to look but I think you guys have plenty of time to ask questions. So any questions comments? I would I would ask you. I mean, what is the you know, what can What can the city Do to best support you? Well, I mean the city does does fund us currently I don't know how much I'm horrible with numbers, but um It does fund us for almost one full fte and so certainly to continue doing that Um, it's greatly appreciated um, and then you know, I hate To ask but I mean anything else that the city could be financially and then would be great. Um Or you know, if you know of any grants for us to apply for or anything. I mean, there's how much money do you have in the state? More or less. I want to say I think I've heard Like I want to say I've heard like a hundred and something tossed around. Are you still getting money from UVM as well? Yes And I and I think those are both like a hundred and something each Um, the program itself is around six hundred dollars. Well, if it was that six It's about a hundred thousand dollars. Yeah, um an outreach worker by the time you get done with benefits admin We don't make Um But to fund it, that's what if they can't sell that that's not so I have But the working relationship between the city outreach and the csl csos But we're taking over what we've been doing or we taking part of what they've been doing and if they don't need This coordinate So So the csos we don't really have csos communities for officers. Um We haven't really had any cause to overlap with them Um, so I can't really speak about that Um for csls. We do there is a not a lot of overlap um, but They do a lot of um What I don't know what the current word for it used to be called non categorical case management so if a person Really needs like a needs um Care service or case management type things, you know someone to help them See a project through um But they're not eligible for Howard center crt and they're not eligible for you know Whatever all the other programs that that offer that service Um, then it's my understanding that the csls will provide that So to that and I mean we do a lot of like if it's a mental health call will It looks like a mental like it's going to be primarily mental health We'll take a first pass See if it's if it's something that's going to be more ongoing then we'll refer back to them And then they'll pick it up to kind of do the ongoing kind of stuff um, conversely if they Get dispatched to something and are like whoa. Whoa. This is like an an emergent mental health or social service need You know, they'll they'll call us and then we'll coordinate Some more emergency response and then so I I think that I think there's plenty to go around Um, I do think, you know, we've been working on having that that system be a little smoother um But that'll Let me ask this question and then post So you talked about the six element Who did not get the qualification? Six First oh, oh, yeah. Yeah, you didn't find some of it. Right. Right. I wanted to understand what are the Dreadings up to the scene is that accepting of everything almost What are we looking for also one type of training is you guys see do we Yeah, the escalation and yeah Okay So um to be a street outreach worker. So it's it's a really it's an odd position On that requires sort of an odd set of skills Um It used to be a bachelor's position bachelor's level position Over the last two or three years. We've changed that to have it be I think it's I mean it it can be two years of education. Yeah education and or lived experience So it's it's really more just taking the total of that person's experience um and then um Seeing if it fits into you know, do they know are they familiar with social services? um Do they have critical thinking skills are they? um Do they have like The ability to um multi task to Kind of change hats on a dime. Do they have? um Experience with substance use disorder treatment. Do they have experience serving homeless populations? Do they have? um any experience working with children in crisis? Do they have? um de-escalation skills training do they have? um Just uh, I think I very I think I've covered most of them but then So if we have if we see that there's somebody who either has like a bachelor's in that And some practical skills because it's not really it is an entry-level position and yet it's not um because a lot of um The work that we do Is kind of acute um So it's not really fair or safe to say that we're the one takes literally who's never done anything like it before and um And we do have um, we do have The escalation training. It's called therapeutic options training. Um, we've started taking um physical assault defense systems, which is essentially um A training for us so that we feel more comfortable if someone is physically aggressive um that we You know in addition to being able to use our verbal skills Um feel like we can get out of the way And stay safe. Um I mean we get a host of just the heron center training is on suicidality suicide prevention Ethyl means um, yeah, just ours Um, this is I think as much maybe a question for the mayor's office So I seem to be in conversation with as well, but I'm just curious With because it is more like like emergency needs. Um, thank you all focus on that as we're thinking How much this will lay into this Versus building on top of versus just curious what that expansion looks like It's an important question and one of the The work that's happening now since Jackie probably came on and we have this kind of clarity that we have a working model with the state is There's quite a bit of work going on today trying to answer detailed questions exactly like this. How does this new resource coordinated and interact with these existing resources and Um If we have a fully answers that yet, it's something that's very much In in more threats, not just street outreach. It's also like that one. It's EBM MC is very involved in Just spell housing model and receiving You know the end of giving some medical direction To to the team that's in the fields. They've been very involved these conversations It's it's I don't know anyone wants to hear it's one of the reasons why it's been taking Wow to to get this stood up is a lot of detailed questions think that to sort of You you may be more in touch with kind of the up-to-date So I I have not been privy to those conversations which I mean honestly Kind of dizzying all of the layers that go into it. So kind of glad For nosy as I know as I normally am But what I do anticipate Just knowing how how systems work And how they normally play out. I believe that we will still Be in that supporting the emergency support role So from my perspective, I think it is I I still think that is important that we Um be able to be in a 8 to 8 position so that we can Still do our ground work and support The cahoots model or are the cahoots model and the team same thing. There's two Okay, so I think okay good new name is just I was getting confused Okay, so I mean I from the way I've seen the cahoots model Being fleshed out. I think that we that street outreach um and Yes, that street outreach will still be Kind of will be the on-the-ground support piece for that um and The thing that will be nice about that is that They will be the more nimble Urgency response, but that's going to sort of like be the top Layer of that. So we'll be here being supportive. So I think It is different and and complimentary So Thank you, Tim It's helpful, but you know a lot of what you all do, but didn't have the full history. So I appreciate My question is kind of connected to the council of high towers in terms of You know how you all are dispatched And you know I've called first calls several times curiously Preparing a call coming in through 901 where he's simply called first call Is there Is there one lane that's faster and then we get to you all more quickly No, I mean so No, I mean first call if you if you call them I mean, I think if you think you are calling because you have a like a mental health crisis that needs to be dealt with in the moment um You know, that's a really emergent Like somebody's actively suicidal or pharmaceutical Then I think calling first call first is probably the best route that they may say Well, you know, we know that person and you know, could we have street outreach come out and Kind of assess what's going on first or you know, we don't have anybody right now But helpful to have street outreach come out. Um, they would just call us either directly on our personal cells or their personal cells or direct lines um Or through our 488 like general team number But that's not a faster or any different than how dispatch gets ahold of us. So it's the same What's bad is when they go and call us at the same time and all of our phones blow up Sort of a common And I'll say this is the marriage right as we now add Our emergency intervention team, I think there needs to be a lot more community information on like who to call and And how how that works because I hear Complaints, I guess for lack of better word like I don't know who to call And particularly if you're in a situation where The person you're with or who's having the episode doesn't want you to call 9-1-1 And I hear sort of two sets one is I call 9-1-1 And they can't come right away and then then what do I do? Or conversely the person Maybe you're calling on behalf of really doesn't want you to call 9-1-1 they're like I call Howard main number and It's six o'clock. You know, yeah, I just think the whole process needs more Communication, I guess Because I think that's Well, and I I I feel the same way about I mean, I think a joint PSA would be yeah Yeah, and now we have official. Um, the new suicide Behind yeah, just good, right? So I mean there's a couple of new numbers to call But you're right and I I Like I said like I I've had I understand why the Howard Center website is the way the Howard website is and I have my own wishes about how the Howard Center website is And maybe that's something That in you know, kind of like a a community whole like maybe when the team Yes, uh rolled out There could be something that's sort of comprehensive about these are all the great services we have Here's a decision tree for you. Well, I guess it's people If particularly if they're in the moment of calling you probably aren't looking at a website either True and so and that's but that's why 9-1-1 is still Yeah Still good, I guess Did anyone have any other questions or I just I mean, I think For me as we continue to build out these systems, you know obviously it sounds like sherry just been around since about 2000 You know, we have a lot of You know, I think about the place of government DC out of street outreach various agencies all sort of Creating this network of services for What is arguably oftentimes an extremely vulnerable population and I think Part of me wonders How do we continue to improve that system when it is sort of this mosaic like structure and then I think in terms of I don't know regulatory is the right word but Sometimes it's hard for me to figure out like how do we know what's helping and what's working Um, especially when you have um You have external factors that are contributing to Where people are at But then just also given the circumstances. I think it can be hard for people to be potentially and things to like advocate for what is working for them And I think that that's something that I think about with With these Services and and especially I think that ones that are under an agency that aren't And I know and I had asked you this maybe A while ago, I don't know but um Or I was like how Because there isn't really we're not really tracking People's experience of working with street outreach, right? I mean like we're not collecting data and and I'm not saying that That's like the beyond end all and that can get like needlessly bureaucratic and just be sort of like technical or whatever, but um, I do just wonder And I think you know as we were just sort of talking about like then there's going to be like because of this model And then there's going to be hardship and all these things. It's like But how do we really figure out what's working and also how to be to make sure that's not coming just from people are in a position to um like sort of in the power position of Creating those services and not needing to receive those services. Um, but how are they actually Working or even we're receiving them in a way that's like providing dignity for their lives and gives them agency and and also doesn't like sort of slip into that sort of Like in Removing the problem from people who don't do you know, I do I do And from the from society who's like who doesn't need to be like asked like are you on your meds? You know or whatever because I also like I don't necessarily believe that people need to be on that It's like I don't yeah, I think that um, there's a lot of lack of sort of Even comfort or like education or there's a lot of stigma around just people being like Expressively a certain way that we're just not sure people who don't experience like outside of the shared Reality are like, what do I do? Like why is that person yelling because they are seeing something that I'm not seeing that makes me uncomfortable You know, and so I'm just like how do we do better way that continues to provide Dignity, especially when we're really in mental health, but also things like substance use Um, and all these things are someone to show that Yeah, no, I I agree and we I struggle that as well. Um We we have We have surveys so so that was kind of you know surveys were sort of like all the thing and we We do them every year. We give them to all the providers that we work with And then it comes down to you know trying to get feedback from the people that we work with and I have a hard time even like Saying to some you know like saying to someone like well To giving them a survey and to like imply that like they're my client You know what I mean because to them I am I am a person That they know that I work for GRH and they ask me a question right and now but now they're getting this like survey that I that I mean it doesn't ask any Disrespectful questions, but then it creates a weird dynamic um And like you said like it kind of insinuates something um, and Even the people who are like, oh, yeah, I'd love to I'd love to give feedback um About your work then you always wonder well, are you giving that feedback? because And you're saying something nice because you feel like you have to So it just it gets the whole power dynamic of it in general gets really weird um, and I I have never really I mean we do we do Client surveys every year But I I'm always sort of like Half-hearted about it because I'm not sure of what it's actually collecting And it doesn't capture everybody Because a lot of the people that you work with don't Don't They hadn't in their experience. They had an interaction with us Right. I might see that I help them get to the shelter or I helped them When they were in the middle of a psychotic episode and But they Their experiences that I was just first the camel to help them And I'm not going to get in the middle of telling them that That wasn't the experience they had right So then how do you capture that feedback because what would that even look like? Why would you say to somebody that you just helped Across the street give me can you give me some feedback about how I helped you cross the street? Well, that would be weird so Yeah, I get there Yeah, I think that's just something I'd like to keep thinking about especially because we have sort of these It's a lot with the sort of public private sort of network support And I think that I think just over decades struggle to provide not like us in Burlington but like as As a culture and culture in the u.s. Like to provide care in a way that Is dignified And like I mean and I hear you saying, you know meeting people where they're at But I think really truly meets people where they're at I think some of it is so much just What you just want a little bit is just there's not enough funding which is extremely frustrating and it's just something that's I think mental health works, but But yeah, I just Yeah, I really I really believe that people like deserve to be helped in a way that is Helpful to them and not have someone Certainly outside of the situation has decided as well. That's right And I hope you don't you didn't you didn't take my by saying like people saying Oh, they just don't do like start kicking that says like me feeling that way, right? Okay, I mean I think there are people who I mean and that was the that was the way it was When Thorzin came out. Yeah, and and people just realized You know, we can just get to be quiet. Right And that's something so I have to say that's one thing one thing that we've another like kind of just mini challenge that we've had this year is There are so many there are so many people who are Using meth and opioids in a more public fashion Then Burlington has ever Experienced before and I think you know People were used to seeing people publicly inebriated, right? People will be like, oh that guy's drunk Whatever he's drunk. It's fine. He can be drunk. I'm not worried about that but when people see somebody who is Under the influence of meth or opioids, they don't know what it is And there's this alarm like, oh my god. Do you see that guy over there? Do you see what they're doing? Or He's okay like that. He's he's pi. He's I think if that's what it looks like That's what he's experiencing and he's all right, you know And like maybe we'll monitor to make sure that he's not start to or D but to even just have that like to get people to realize that that in addition to People experiencing reality different than others or being neurodivergent and just reacting to stimuli than others You know sometimes the behaviors are that they are under the influence and it looks different than what we as a society are used to and I mean, it's okay Yeah, I think that is like a huge like the amount of emails that I give people just being like I can't believe someone's using and I'm like People get high Is something that like some people engage in because that's what they're at and it's I never know exactly what to say in response to those emails because I think there is just so much to stick with that and then there is sort of this Coupled with that this sort of either right and I don't know exactly what to say to be like It's it's not really like you're not in danger in my situation Right, um, and we do have people in the community who can support that person to make sure they stay safe Right. That's what we always say we always try to like go and make sure they're not in danger Yeah, and and try to assure them that like and I maybe some people are just like nope like that's just a lie to me, but I think some of it's just like right on you know, I mean if you see someone moving or out of state of combat Like get through a big system. Some people Yeah, I think there's the part of it for me It's also the moralizing that is that I'm just like I don't know Yeah, go I don't feel like there's Right dilemma here, but you know, I want to make sure the person's safe, right? I'm not moralizing the situation Anyway, thank you for your perspective and it's for letting me ask so many questions I mean guys, how many of your interactions are Short-term versus long-term? I mean you get called somebody's having And what do you mean by short-term versus? Well, if you Talk to them you try to steer them services You know, maybe to a shelter Get housing get in the system And you hope at some point They get in some system Whatever that means, right, right, or are you still dealing with the same person five years later? And I'm more of the percentages Yeah We had said that there were 4,100 calls but only 800 individuals 800 Unduplicated. Yes. So we had four four thousand calls, right? So the somebody called or we talked to somebody four thousand times throughout the year and that was with 800 different people Right, so it wasn't four thousand calls about the same 30 people. It's about it was four thousand calls The 800 But the minute you call them from Kind of get in a system. You're gonna have a lot of interaction, right at a certain level From day one to six months from now But then I'm just trying to get a sense of After I don't know I'm picking six months, but some amount of time Are you still there talking to them every day? there So there are some people that I I have been Literally talking to for 20 years um And then there are other people that it is kind of wanted done, you know, you meet them and they they're like I just need to know where the shelter is and you But I'm what I'm trying to drive at a set of a maybe you can do it like a perspective on Like do people progress? Well, I think people would guess but sort of volume of work, you know There's a certain group of folks you probably will be talking to for 20 years But yeah, you know hope that Oh, I'm not saying yeah that would um, I mean Maybe 60 40. Okay. Just trying to get kind of a sense of yeah I mean, I think, you know So it's kind of it's kind of interesting because the way the day the way the day works out and because We try to like catch back up on things that happen when we are off hours um The two people who come in in the morning They do a lot of the more acute kind of stuff because it's like Things are happening like things have been happening for the last hour We've been waiting for you to get here or this happened last night, you know, try to follow up on that So they probably do a lot more um Like they would talk to somebody They would go out on that call they would interact with them And then that incident that incident and that need Would be closed out and they might See somebody more than once 20% of the time, okay, you know Whereas the guys who come in Later like the day is calm down So they get to go out and do more of the proactive work So the people that they see They'll be seeing like more regularly like more following up like checking in and like did you get that housing application? You know, are you still thinking about going to the church to fly out? I'll walk down there with you that kind of stuff We can really always spend the rest of the evening talking about this Tammy thanks so much for you're acting so like you're well being here. Sorry. You're sorry the rest of your team have their their Had work to do and I'd love to have had all of them here, but uh, thank you for the work in your So that city can I ask one more question just in terms of for the most helpful Those of us who like to read What's the most helpful place to live for information on like some of the statistics that you gave us or? Not a thing You know, I could actually so we get um We have we it's most thing we do the uh service um, and every year we have an evaluation Thing compiled and published I could have said no That'd be great Is it to you and then you can try them in it or you can actually just say city council at relinks and vt.com At your Back alone And many other things Um So we'll continue on with our agenda and again. Thanks so much Tammy. All right. Thank you for that Here what you can hear your work that you do Um We'll go on to item Item number three, which are the communications that we're going to be receiving in executive session um, the first is a litigation matter the second is a personnel matter um Traditionally before we go into executive session before we make these motions. Um, I'll turn to the administration I don't know if you have anything that you want to add On either of the two items and open a session or if we just go into Just Okay, great. Thank you, mayor With that, um, I'll go to councilor carpenter if you have the motions up And you can make the first motion to to executive session Or the first motion that will lead us to the motion to go into executive session Okay, um, I would like to move that the council find that pretty mature public knowledge of legal advice and information concerning The details of pending litigation truto at all versus the city of rowington at all To which the city is a party has a stated entrance to clearly place the city at a substantial disadvantage I further move that the council go into executive session to discuss a disciplinary or dismissal action against a public officer employee Pursuant to one vsa Subsection 3 13 a Thank you. Councilor carpenter. That is a mouthful. Um, is there a second to the motion? I second by councilor McGee. Uh, thank you. Um, all those in favor of is there any discussion on the motion? Seeing none, then we'll go to a vote. All those in favor of the motion as as Councilor carpenter has has said please say aye. All right. Any opposed, please say no Um, that's excellent. That is unanimous. So councilor carpenter Um, if we could go on to regard to the first part of the motion regarding pending litigation You have a second motion on that Um, based on that finding regarding truto at all For city of rowington at all I move that the council go into executive session To receive confidential attorney client communications One vsa suppression 313 a one app And the pending civil litigation manner One vsa suppression of group 14 a one Thank you. Councilor carpenter. Uh, seconded by councilor McGee There and I would note that in the first executive session that will include the mayor's staff attorney tom simon is Patiently been waiting for us. Um, and the second executive session will include ceo shad I don't know major director jerfing. She has been here as well and the mayor's staff And I don't know if you plan to stay for the first executive session We have shader. Yes. Yes. Okay. So it'll include you as well in the second and the first one Uh, is there any discussion on the motion? Seeing none, we'll go to a vote. All those in favor of the motion, please say aye. All right Any moves, please say no That will bring us into executive session. Um, we are hoping to That's both of them should be too rather short. We're hoping to be done by around 6 15 6 1 early We are at 6 oh no, we're actually at 650 750 or 720 So we are back from the executive sessions. Thank you so much for your patience and waiting for us Um, the next item on our agenda Is the public forum and given that it's already a few minutes past 7 30 We will get started with public forum Um Apologies just a moment Okay, my apologies just had to get on to uh onto zoom so that we can uh Have our have anyone who's joining us remotely be able to speak Um, thank you again for your patience We will begin our public forum and before we do just a few pieces of information The system on the table in front of us has three lights A green one will shine when you begin speaking the second is a yellow light which will shine when you have 30 seconds left And then the last is a red light when your time is up We ask that you please complete your comments when the Sound and the light indicate that your time is up so that everyone is given the same amount of time to speak We have a hybrid system for public forum So if you wish to speak in person if you're here in con toys You can go to my right in the back of the room. There are pieces of paper. Just fill one out and give them to Sarah chalori And they will give give that to me Um, if you wish to speak via zoom you can do that There is a link on burlington vt Back forward slash city council forward slash public forum And a form will come up when you when you go to that link Please complete the form and your answers will come into a spreadsheet that i'm actually looking at on my computer And that way I can know that you're in know that you want to speak Um, Ed has has always been our practice Or certainly in in has been our practice of late Burlington residents will have first priority in speaking So we will go to burlington residents that are here in con toys first Um, and then we will go to burlington residents online Then back to con toys to non burlington residents in person and then Back to our online non burlington residents who are joining us via zoom We only have one request and that is um other than keeping to the time limit that during public forum We ask that you please uh speak to us respectfully As we will to you And to direct your comments to me as the chair and not to anyone else at this table Please do not personalize your comments. We um We do know and we have at times had Families that come to con toys to Engage with us at council meetings. It is their way of Working to encourage their children to be a part of civic engagement And we know that there are people who watch us online. So please try to keep that in mind Um, and we also want to hear what you have to say and it's a whole lot easier for us to listen If you speak respectfully With that we will start the public forum and um in con toys and the first person is jesca oski to be followed by Uh, Miguel Lozano Welcome, please. No, we need to rush And just make sure that the microphone is on there's a little um button where it says push Okay, can you hear me? Yes Thank you, um president paul and members of the council My name is jessica oski and i've applied for a seat on the police commission I moved to burlington in 1982 to go to uvm and have been a resident ever since but for a three-year hiatus to go to law school For the past 30 years i've been a lawyer and a lobbyist including five years as an assistant city attorney Serving with the honorable counselor bergman I love burlington and I care deeply about the people the neighborhoods the schools the shops and restaurants the lake And parks. I raised my son here 13 years through burlington schools Thank you for considering my application to join the burlington police commission I see the role of a commissioner as an opportunity to support the success of the burlington police department and to be an active participant in reimagining the future of policing in burlington I believe that everyone in burlington has a right to feel safe Whether they're homeowners renters people without homes new residents long time residents business owners students or visitors And the burlington police department is just one piece of that safety puzzle To me a successful burlington police department is one that promotes safety builds trust Collaboration and legitimacy throughout the city is self aware is fair and impartial Is constantly improving and is accountable to the community I look forward to your support and the opportunity to serve the city that I love And i'm grateful to all of you for your service. Thank you. Thank you so much Thank you so much jessica. Our next speaker is miguel asano to be followed by romeo von herman I am honored once again to have your attention I want to take a moment to talk about the importance of voting and the crucial role of election inspectors Elections are the cornerstone of democracy and the right to vote is one of the most fundamental rights we possess Voting gives us a voice a say in how our society is run and the power to hold our leaders leaders accountable It is our civic duty to participate in the democratic process And by doing so we can help shape the future of our city state country the world But voting is not possible without the dedicated work of election inspectors These individuals work tirelessly to ensure that every Eligible voter can exercise their right to vote in a fair and secure manner They organize polling stations train poll workers And ensure that every vote is counted accurately Election inspectors are the unsung heroes of our democracy And we owe them a debt of gratitude for their hard work and dedication So I urge all of you to exercise your right to vote And to support the important work of election inspectors Together we can ensure that democracy remains strong and vibrant for generations to come And i'm sorry to personalize it a little bit there chair My name is Miguel Lozano from Santa Fe Albuquerque, New Mexico I did not come to Burlington, Vermont to get a piece of the pie With the help of the community the council And by the grace of god I'm here to create the pie That everyone will want a piece of Thank you Thank you so much Our next speaker is romeo van herman von herman to be followed by todd lacroix Good evening. Good evening. Thank you Madam president counselors mayor The administrative team I just wanted to be here today just to thank you guys for the work you all do I know it's a very thankless job And a very busy job to have I do understand the importance of civic engagement and I know The importance of delivering what the people ask for At the end of the day, I just want to say thank you for the work you all do Just to simplify Thank you Thank you Our next speaker is todd lacroix to be followed by steve goodkind Good evening todd For the last few years, I have seen How you all pretend to care about the people who have been killed By police elsewhere Well at the same time you continue to dehumanize me And people like me The survivors You throw us away you treat us like crap You tell us it's our fault You do all sorts of horrible things And yet I'm even worse off. You know why because the police That continue to beat me up harass me for speaking about it Surviving is worse Because you you know what the benefit of dying Is that you don't have to find out How foolish everybody is And you treat us being angry about being dehumanized Like there's something wrong with us While you continue to support things like torture Our children are being murdered number one fucking death Bullets and yet You're more concerned about a war With russia You're more concerned about spending money On death weapons Then fixing our roads Then fixing our schools Fixing the problems in our culture You want to ban tiktok, but you don't want to do anything about fake book Which led the way to messing our children up You always just want a whack-a-mole And way you do this is that you have to tell yourself It's our fault for surviving so that you can live with it. Thank you. Todd Our next speaker is steve good steve goodkine to be followed by jake shuman Thank you president paul I'm gonna try and read this in two minutes. I think I Like there's something wrong with me all clear Go ahead. Thank you You're just gonna need to turn the press the button in front of you. So it's the lightest green where it says push Is it on? Now it's on right great Burlinton declared a climate emergency in 2019 the declaration calls for the city to be net carbon neutral by 2050 So let's take a look at that mcgill plant from that perspective The wood burning mcgill plant generates over 400 000 tons of co2 per year It's the largest single source of co2 production in vermont mcgill only acknowledges a tiny fraction of the 400 000 tons when figuring their carbon footprint because they consider would to be a renewable resource Trees require 80 to 100 years to reach maturity in vermont While mcgill gets most of its wood from the parts of trees that are not useful to the lumber industry They still requires the harvesting of whole trees to create the so-called waste product that is chipped and burned by mcgill The net result is a large reduction of the carbon absorption capabilities of forests in vermont And new york from today Until 2050 Only about 15 percent of the co2 absorption capabilities lost by the forests Harvested during this period for mcgill will have been renewed at the same time mcgill will emit at least 10 800 000 tons of co2 Not very renewable not in that In that time frame mcgill's renewable power also allows it to sell Renewable energy credits this greenwashing enables others to continue to operate their own dirty Facilities or mcgill continues to run In summary the actual carbon footprint of mcgill consists of co2 from combustion The lost absorption capacity of harvested forests and the co2 emissions from facilities that buy the renewable energy credits for mcgill It's fair to say that mcgill was probably among the worst options for power generation when it comes to climate impact Worse even than fossil fuels that don't rely on forests and don't sell renewable energy credits With full accounting of the impact of mcgill the city will not come close to meeting The 2050 goals of the climate emergency declaration if it continues to operate mcgill is planned And the carbon tax and district energy projects will only make things worse. Thank you. Thanks very much Uh, our next speaker is jake shuman to be followed by farid Hi jake good evening My name is jake shuman. Thank you counselors and president paul I would like to speak about the trinity campus redevelopment and I would like to encourage council to table the discussion The university of vermont has a memorandum of understanding signed with the city I'd like to say that One of the primary reasons why housing is unaffordable in our city is because our renters are a captive market there's not enough housing and The housing stock is concentrated in too far too few hands Yes, more housing is good But more temporary housing is not more temporary housing Creates a situation where students moving out of short-term housing for their first and second year as uvm students Put increased pressure on our market as third fourth and fifth year students We need to consider uvm as more than a neighbor uvm needs to be a partner Partners reach agreements. They make commitments to each other I would like to ask this council to remember that you do not serve uvm You serve the people Finally, I'd just like to say that because of the consequential nature of this Specific item before you today In the absence of a ward 8 city councilor I again think it is incumbent upon the council to table this discussion Thank you Thank you very much Our next speaker is for read to be followed by aspen ovary In 2015 I was part of the campaign For the ballot question regarding all residents voting Allowing people who are non-citizens to vote I remember How much of a struggle it was to even get this administration to Not block That ballot question from reaching the ballot And now seven years later eight years later. We see the city Even sponsoring some of the campaign signs that we see out there Encouraging people to support all residents voting I also had in May my mailbox today Mailing opposing question seven calling it an experiment Was was the 2015 ballot question an experiment We call that progress and It's not an experiment. It's progress the same Sort of apply to ballot question seven that we have on town meeting day. It's It's not an experiment. It's progress And I I realized Some of you it's not as urgent To reform the police to put some oversight But for a lot of us this is a life and death situation We need this Let's make progress. We have not made that we've been promised that but we haven't Finally, I want to thank the majority of you who signed the petition for prop zero And for people who oppose it, I wish they would just be more honest that they don't want direct democracy instead Trying to confuse the voters with legal least concern as you can see from the city attorney's memo It's not this is not a huge deal. Everybody else in vermont has it Please go into vermont Status annotated and look for permissive referendums. This is something that all the towns have except for burlington Thank you so much for read Our last speaker who's joining us in person in con toys is aspen ovary And then we'll go on to people that are joining us online Good evening. Good evening. My name is aspen ovary I come today as a member of the uvm union of students to talk about agenda item 7.02 the trendy rezoning and to encourage that to be tabled So I want to provide a voice that's rare That's somehow rarely heard in discussions with in discussions with regarding to the university in burlington the voice of a student And the voice of students frequently on both sides of the aisle There's a tendency to talk about students as almost cattle or people who or people who won Are total backers of syrash garamalla and that all students are synonymous with uvm administration And two as students are as not proper residents or not proper citizens and neither of these are true Students strongly disagree with uvm administration and their policy of infinite growth uvm has made the policy choice to warehouse us and pack us in in like sardines In addition to this off-campus housing crisis uvm is manufacturing and on campus one as well and I really encourage and Uvia if we rezone trinity uvm will not stop uvm will just simply push it more and more and more as we've seen with their With their just rampant desire for growth that having the ideology of a cancer cell if we This can have drastic impacts on the city of burlington as a whole skyrocketing rent prices hurting and hurting students We don't students. We do not want trinity to be rezoned without an enrolling cap Thank you and to and to And any attempt by the uvm administration to claim otherwise is line to be quite honest and I sincerely hope you all table this until there's a memorandum of understanding. Thank you so much. Have a great evening Thank you very much We will go on to uh people that are joining us online and just give a chance to get the timer up The those who are joining us online are all burlington residents and the first is Sharon busher And Sharon i've enabled your microphone. You should be able to speak Yes, I can thank you so much president paul I wanted to address both of the ordinances that are on your deliberative agenda And I sent communic written communications unlike me, but I did um, and I know they're in your packet um, the first item is inclusionary zoning and um That I would respectfully ask that you add to the draft language square footage for three and four bedroom units Initially, there was a statement that no families really needed those affordable units, but that's really not true So i'm hoping that that can be amended um The trouble for me with the inclusionary zoning is the genesis of this the fact that there may be um a developer who wants to create student housing in our downtown and I I really Feel that this once was our marketplace It once was vibrant and had commercial and retail And some housing and we wanted to enhance that mix But I feel that I just want to caution everybody that I feel that that that scale is now tipping and Pretty soon all of the property tax burden will be on residential units renters and property owners alike I'm very concerned about that The second thing is it's been spoken about quite a bit I've asked that you consider tabling the trinity overlay And the reason I did is because I like others want A honest and frank discussion with uvm administration about capping their enrollment because adding Camp on campus housing for undergrad students will help uvm and ultimately harm our city and make the housing crisis worse Thank you very much, and I hope you all will at least scan what I wrote because it's more in-depth Than what I just stated. Thanks again Thank you Sharon. Our next speaker is milo grant to be followed by ashlee adams and Milo, I have found you and enabled your microphone. Please go ahead Before you do, uh, there is someone who has raised their hand, uh, bob butani We will come back. We will go to you last so just so that you're aware that I have seen your hand raised Go ahead milo Hi, thank you, uh president paul. I just want to agree with uh, what jake shuman Said about uvm and the fact that we don't have an mou with them I want everyone to think about the fact that they currently As we all know have to house their freshman and sophomores on campus 30 of those students are housed in triples 30 percent so Although we want to continue with zoning changes in order to Have more housing built and have the option of having increased housing in trinity on trinity campus It doesn't mean anything if They are not getting their enrollment under control and I want to give a shout out to state legislator troi had Drake for the work that he's going to be doing in trying to Tackle this from a legislative Point of view Um, I want to thank you also for having tami buda speak to the city council today I'm sure you found what she had to say to be valuable and to be related to public safety in our community We have previously had her on the police commission The things that she talked about Where some of the funds around that were provided for covet for housing Free busing and these other things are going to create a park storm for us. So we really need to start thinking and planning In a better way than we are, you know really thinking about Deadlines and goals in order to get all these So other supporting resources up and going I would like to also see some type of follow-up on the mental health summit that brought up issues of coordination Issues of bringing other providers into the network, you know, where we are Are we with following up on that very important summit? Thank you Uh, we will go to ashley adams and ashley. I found you and it enabled your microphone. Please go ahead Okay, thank you City think counselors Hi, can you hear me? Can go ahead. I had all sorts of noise in the background. I'm not sure what that was Um, I'm here tonight to urge residents to vote no on ballot question to the carbon impact the item If you care about the climate emergency your first instinct will be to vote Yes, because the question asked voters to allow the city to impose a fee on fossil fuel heating systems In new buildings and large existing commercial and industrial buildings However, the question is extremely misleading It excludes and therefore incentivizes renewable heating systems But it doesn't inform voters that what the city defines as renewable You and I might think that renewable means heating sources that do not increase greenhouse gas emissions However, as with that so-called net zero energy plan Burlington defines renewable as including wood including wood burned at mcneal biomass plant as well as so-called renewable gas and biodiesel incentivizing these types of carbon intensive polluting fuels will increase greenhouse gas emissions adversely affect public health and impair forest but Biodiversity burning wood emits more carbon dioxide per unit of energy than any fossil fuel including coal It emits other air pollutants that are harmful to human health and it causes destruction and impairment of the biodiversity of our forest The mcneal plant is the largest stationary source of greenhouse gas and other harmful air pollutants in vermont emitting 453,347 tons of co2 in 2021 per the eta That is the equivalent of 88,640 gasoline powered passenger vehicles driven for one year Is this what we want to be promoting? So-called renewable gas is methane and is just as polluting as the gas that we're currently burning biofuel production use Generate greenhouse gases and other harmful pollutants and leads to destruction of forests and displacement of land used for food production around the world Burlington residents deserve real progress on reducing greenhouse gas emissions not initiatives that promote false climate solutions Please vote no on ballot item two And you can visit uh stop d tv biomass dot org for more detailed information. Thank you very much Thank you so much Our last speaker unless we have received any any other requests our last speaker online is Bob butani who just had raised your hand raised their hand. Bob, please correct me if I've mispronounced your name Um, I've enabled your microphone. So you should be able to speak now Can you hear me? Yes, we can. Okay. Thank you very much for the opportunity to speak I was not able to get uh the link going so I appreciate the opportunity I'll be very brief. I support a motion to table consideration of the Proposed trinity campus zoning ordinance amendments until such time that the full council can obtain and analyze independent research on the uh any on the potential consequences that this Uh, uh situation can create and uh, which Probably would exacerbate the critical housing crisis already In existence in burlington. Thank you very much Thank you very much There's no one else in the queue online and we don't have any More slips of paper in front of me. I don't know if there's anyone else who wishes to speak if you do we'll give you a Short time to Stand up and be looking like you are going to the other side of the room to fill out a form Otherwise, we will close the public forum at 804 Um, thank you to all who came to speak to us Before we continue with our council meeting We do have two other meetings this evening to attend to that being the uh city council with mayor presiding and the board of civil authority Um, I'll recess the city council meeting at 804 and we'll turn the gavel over to mayor Weinberger for these two meetings Thank you president paul. I will call to order the city council with mayor presiding And would welcome a motion on the agenda So moved. Thank you. President paul is our second second by councilor gey Any discussion of the agenda? All those in favor adopting agenda, please say aye. All right Any opposed? We uh, we have an agenda The next item is the consent agenda and I would welcome a motion to adopt the consent agenda and take the actions indicated So moved. Thank you president paul second by councilor mickey any discussion of the consent agenda Seeing none will go to a vote. All those in favor of the motion, please say aye. All right Are there any opposed? The consent agenda is adopted This brings us to The first of two deliberative items. The first is 3.01 which is the nomination the appointment of a police commissioner for a term expiring june 30th 2025 The floor is open for nominations Councilor mickey Thank you. I would like to nominate jessica oski Thank you Are there any further nominations? Are there any further nominations? If there are no further nominations, I'll close the close the Uh Close the nominating period. We heard from jess earlier We often at this point provide an opportunity to speak for it. I think you're good. Great With that Is there any discussion that the council would like to have? Seeing Seeing none, we will Go to a vote all those in favor of appointing Uh Pointing jessica oski to a term Expiring june 30th 2025 on the police christian. Please say aye. All right. All right Any opposed the uh the The applicant hasn't uh, congratulations. Jessica. Thank you for your interest in serving the the city We look forward to working with you on this important role There we did have um a couple um other applicants who were we're not nominated and I would just um Share with them if they are watching that many of our Many of our commissioners serving on burlington boards have not been successful The first time and we'd encourage you to consider applying again in the future and thank you for your interest in serving burlington's fortunate to have um strong interest in so many of our Board and commission seats We do have uh another um Um Board term to decide tonight for the vehicle for hire licensing board Also a term expiring june 30th 2025 Do we have any? applicants for do we have any nominations for this board sarah? Councilor carpenter Thanks, um, I would be happy to nominate um paul haines who happens to be a neighbor of mine for the Vehicle for hire licensing board. It is somewhat unusual that you get um Professional of his interest wanting to apply for the board. Um, and I will say this came about because he's raised Some concerns to me about the availability of cabs and taxis at the airport and in general in the city They are part of our public transportation And paul has graciously When I twisted his arm, I said I wanted to join the commission and he put his name in so I've also talked to councillor Barlow and uh that I think this whole issue needs to be retaken up with toke As we go into next year Thank you councillor carpenter Okay, so, um There is uh, this there's a little bit of a complication with the term length here the initial Um opening there is an opening for a term um Going through 2025 however, we will We have also posted Um as you can see in board docs a one-year term Um It's my understanding there's been continual openings. Um paul was asked what length and he chose one. I think he's not Willing to sign up forever, but said he would at least start and So, um, I had uh, I had opened the nominations for the for uh, I guess a More than one-year term would I'm seeing now the applicant prefers a one-year term. So perhaps there should be um If there's no objection, we'll we'll um, we'll revise that and the this is a one-year term per the posting on June 20 20 Sorry February 21st 20 23. Um Is this for a term ending 6 30 20? That's what I'm I'm trying to Posting It's 24. Okay. All right, so Let's start again the The floor so we're taking nominations for um, a term that would expire A little more than a year from now in june 30th 2024 um, and I would nominate The nomination still stands great any are there any additional nominations? Is uh, is mr. Heinz here? Or online, would he like to address the city council with mayor presiding? Unless you can see him online. I don't believe so. I don't believe so. So, um, we will is there any further discussion? If not, we will go to vote all those in favor of appointing paul heinz to the vehicle for hire a licensing board. Please say aye Are there any opposed? He mr. Heinz has been uh appointed. Um, congratulations and thank you for your willingness to serve on this important committee one that we have had uh challenges properly Filling so, uh, thank you and we hope uh, we'll hope we'll be back for another for another year future event With that, I will close the city council with mayor presiding at 8 10 p.m And need just a moment to get to the other agenda So I will call Into order the border civil authority at 8 11 p.m. And would welcome a motion to adjust to adopt the agenda or amend it So moved Thank you, president paul. Is there a second? Thank you councilor McGee any discussion of the agenda Seeing none, we'll go to a vote all those in favor of the motion. Please say aye Aye Are there any opposed? We have an agenda and our only item of business For the board of civil authority is to adopt the consent agenda and I would welcome motion To do that Motion to adopt the consent agenda and take the actions as indicated Thank you president paul. Is there Um a second second by councilor McGee any discussion of the consent agenda Seeing none, we'll go to vote all those in favor of the motion. Please say aye. Aye Are you opposed? The motion carries unanimously. We've adopted the consent agenda and there being no further business without objection I will adjourn The board civil authority at 8 12 p.m. And hand the microphone back to you president paul Thank you very much mayor Weinberger We will reconvene the city council meeting at 8 14 And the and return to where we left off on the agenda, which is item number five climate emergency reports Is there any counselor or the administration who wishes to offer a climate emergency report mayor Weinberger? Thank you president paul There were a couple references to the McNeil plant In the public forum and I did want to take this occasion to make sure the council and the public were aware that for the first time in the Approximately 40 years of discussing the possibility of capturing the waste heat system from the McNeil plant and using it to make that plant more efficient and to use that waste heat to Provide needed heat for other parts of the city. We are Taking the step of actually applying for an act 250 permit This is not the end of this long journey But it is an important step towards Finally realizing this vision something that has long been seen as a major environmental goal for the city um, the The reason is because this has long been identified as the single most Significant intervention one step that the city could take to reduce its climate footprint the reduction will be approximately 15 of all the commercial emissions in the city when By by capturing the seed and using it in this way I am aware and and I've had many people come to me both discussions like were mentioned the public forum had people come to For a number of weeks now to the open coffees that I have to voice concerns About the fact that there is still combustion involved. There is still burning of wood and and there are emissions that That take place at McNeil I I understand the These concerns and I appreciate the the perspective. I appreciate where these concerns are coming from Certainly, I agree that there's there is a climate emergency. There's great urgency in making progress towards our net zero goals some of which are You know Are as soon as 2030 the What I would encourage people to Members the public who have not fully looked into this who have some concerns along the lines that have been voiced to take a look at the bd website I think you will see there reassuring information about the ways in which in fact bd does manage Its wood chip supply to ensure that this truly is a renewable resource and that there is While there are emissions on an annual basis, there is also on an annual basis very significant impounding of carbon through these managed forests that we have long-term relationships with and Further there's been a lot of really good work done leading up to this decision to compare the McNeil plant to the alternatives that we have and Even as we heard from general manager Darren spring or several weeks ago even if there is a even if you kind of Take all of the worst-case scenarios in terms of how you evaluate the McNeil plant It is 85 percent better in terms of carbon emissions than the all the readily available Alternatives that could change someday perhaps to a reach a point where there's enough wind and solar and hydro power and perhaps other innovative renewables that That that will no longer be the case But right now to discontinue McNeil would be to mean burning more more fossil fuels and that is That that's not an outcome that I think is the right one that for the city. That's why we are pushing So hard to make the plant more efficient through the district energy system And I do the passage of the ballot item would be an important step in that direction as well and Making that outcome more likely so a significant event for this long journey. Thanks for the chance to give the update President Paul Thank you. Mayor Weinberger. We'll go to councillor bergman um a couple of meetings ago. We passed a resolution on transportation calling on the city to Lobby down in Montpelier with the legislature and the governor regarding sustainable mass transit funding And I have no report beyond what I had given a couple of weeks ago, but I would like to request the mayor provide us with a report at the next meeting to discuss the What is happening in Montpelier with sustainable Transportation funding. This is something that this committee that this council is on record as calling for our efforts down in Montpelier to And hopefully they're gonna They are they are bearing fruit. I have had conversations with legislators including the speaker and have been assured that there is a commitment But the details We're not The forthcoming at this, you know, I don't know where they are, but it would be really helpful To get such a report It as soon as possible and if it can be done even if it's a preliminary report At the next meeting. I think it would be Really really helpful. I know that mayor lot is is big on the transportation and on mass transit funding and the links between our two Cities are pretty significant. I actually had the the opportunity. It's something I have not taken to to take the bus the last In the last couple of weeks to Winooski and to north avenue And I was pleasantly surprised at how crowded that bus was and actually how fast I could get there I'm not quite sure That I can make it all work for all the places. I've got to go Particularly with the stops, but this is why we need a vigor in it and we need the city To to be lobbying down there. So that is my request Thank you Point well taken. We will work on that. Are there any other counselors who have a climate emergency report to offer? Seeing none, we will close that item and continue on to item number six, which is our consent agenda Is there a motion to move the consent agenda and take the actions as indicated? Thank you, councillor brant a seconded by councillor McGee. Is there any discussion on that motion? Seeing none all those in favor of the motion to move the consent agenda Please say aye. All right. I any opposed, please say no We have approved our consent agenda that brings us to our deliberative agenda. We have Five items on our deliberative agenda and Going to make another Effort to keep to our time limits on the agenda which we Which we agreed to by approving our agenda. I will do my best The first item on our agenda is 7.01, which is truto et al Versus the city of burlington et al and for Emotion on this item. I will go to councillor barlow Thank you, president paul I moved to approve and authorize the mayor in conjunction with the city attorney's office To enter into a stipulated settlement agreement and a pending litigation matter captioned Trudeau et al versus the city of burlington et al Thank you, councillor barlow. Is there a second to that motion? Seconded by councillor shannon. Is there any discussion on that item? Seeing none, we'll go to a vote all those in favor of the motion Um, uh, please say aye aye Any opposed, please say no That motion passes unanimously Which moves us to item 7.02, which is an ordinance cdo institutions trinity campus overlay z a 22-04 And before we go to a motion, I'd like to invite in fact, she's already here planning director megan tuttle And as well if there are representatives of the university of irman who wish to join her at this time You're welcome to do so you can all come up if you'd like We have plenty of chairs And uh, director tuttle. We've we've allotted 30 minutes or so for this item I don't know if you have a power point or if you're just going to be speaking to this or How you've laid this out But if you could maybe put that into about 15 minutes and that'll give us The council some time for some questions and comments as well Okay, that sounds great. I do have a brief presentation if I'm able to share my screen And my plan is to briefly introduce the council to the proposed zoning amendments themselves I know you have a number of communications about other related Agreements that would accompany or that are requested to accompany This zoning amendment, but my focus is going to be to walk you through the proposed changes there um And then we have a number of members of uvm's administration that can answer questions that the council may have About any of the university's housing or enrollment plans Any of the trinity campus development plans that have informed this discussion or any other topics that you would like to discuss Great. Thank you. Now you should be able to see This presentation Okay the zoning amendment that's coming before you is Intended to help facilitate a number of land use and development goals that are consistent with the city's municipal development plan You have probably seen in some of your communications tonight some references to The fact that this portion of uvm's campus is included in our future land use Plan as an area that's intended to help facilitate Development and growth in the future There are a number of other goals in terms of the character of development and the relationship to the public realm That we are intending to help facilitate the implementation of But I think the the most important goal that is shared And that has been part of the discussion through this process is to help facilitate the greatest number of beds that this campus can responsibly accommodate There are a number of other goals that have informed this amendment that were specific to uvm's request including The goal to build new undergraduate residence halls as well as potentially graduate Housing on this campus to upgrade some of the existing Residence halls and the campus dining experience for this campus and to overall Create an enhanced sense of the campus community The proposed amendment that's in front of you applies to just the trinity campus overlay zoning district This is one of a number of overlay zoning districts that apply to the institutional zoning district And are intended to help us provide specific land use or development Standards for different portions of the campus based on their purpose and role within the broader campus system Uh, there are campus overlays that apply to the medical center to the core and south campuses To champlain college and then ultimately to trinity The trinity campus overlay was first created in 2001 following the closure of trinity college when uvm acquired the campus and um, despite some discussion about the standards for this district in 2009 The provisions have largely remained the same since this district was created So this chart summarizes the changes that are presented in the ordinance language for your consideration It includes changes to the overall height of buildings that are allowed on the trinity campus And particularly it creates a two tiered height limit Allowing for 45 foot buildings that are closer to the street within 150 feet of 155 feet of the street centerline And up to 80 feet in height beyond that point and i'll show you a map of what these points mean in just a second Another change is to enable, uh development within an existing setback from colchester avenue Today there is a setback that precludes development of over of over 200 square feet, which is very small Within 115 feet of the property line So again, this would similarly allow for development albeit lower in height To be located between a new setback line And that existing setback line on the campus This amendment would also include a modest increase to the lot coverage allowed on this campus I'm putting it in line with limits that had previously been contemplated in the earliest days of this zoning districts development It would exempt certain development intensity limits so that again going back to our goal of Responsibly allowing the greatest amount of housing to be created on this campus would help facilitate that process and as part of this Also intending to help implement the goal of a more vibrant campus community that has amenities that can attract a wider range of residents to live on it There are some modest tweaks in terms of the allowed non residential uses that could be permitted on this campus And then finally this ordinance establishes a new process for Information that's submitted as part of an application for development, which i'll talk about again in just a minute So this map includes a number of lines But essentially what it's showing is that the existing boundary today For development on the campus is this purple line And it has been expressed today as 115 foot setback from the property line Given the location of the property line on this portion of the campus What this really means in terms of where development can be located has been very confusing And as we talked about new proposed setbacks for this campus The location of of new buildings was also confused by this condition So we've proposed a simplified map that can be incorporated in the zoning amendment Which bases these setbacks on the location of the center line of colchester avenue So this map shows the two-tiered setback for the height limit that i mentioned earlier Uh between colchester avenue and this blue line no development would be permitted And you may not be able to tell from this map, but this line is setback Behind the location of the buildings that are just to the east the homes that are just to the east of this blue line Between the blue and red line buildings of up to 45 feet in height would be enabled And beyond the red line to the north buildings of up to 80 feet would be enabled This is a section of the portion of trinity campus where uvm has shared some Conceptual plans for new development Just to illustrate what that might look like in a different perspective The green lines here are the boundaries of colchester avenue so you can see how Buildings would be stepped back the further they get from the road These are also some images that uvm provided in earlier discussions with the planning commission To illustrate conceptually what buildings of this height at this setback could look like from the perspective of someone traveling along colchester avenue This image also helps provide a reference for a project of similar Setback and height on the redstone campus in order to provide the context for what something like this may look like in a built form The additional consideration that i mentioned has been included here Is a new requirement for information that would be provided as part of an application for development on the trinity campus This requirement includes the submission of a conceptual plan or a portion of the campus land bank plan Which is a way that the university refers to essentially their future land use plan for campus Um this information will be provided as part of an application to help link More information about plans for future development or plans for future use of the campus To other information that the city also already receives in the institutional parking management plan process And it's really intended to help provide additional context for Individual user groups and how they influence the anticipated demand Um for uses on the campus A really important note about this is that given the role of municipal zoning and statutory provisions It is not the intent that this would be used to create a new standard or Um mechanism by which a permit could be denied or conditioned But is intended to help provide additional information to the city so that we can plan for and anticipate The broader impacts or needs around the growth plans Of these parts of the institutions So that's an outline of the zoning amendment itself Happy to take any questions about that or happy for To turn it over to members of the uvm administration to share any additional information Good evening We are making this request. I don't know it's productive for me to say anything rather than to respond to your questions Probably more productive Okay, all right Thank you. Thank you all for being here. Uh, we'll open this up to Questions from the council beginning with councillor high tower I unfortunately don't have questions. I just have comments Which is thank you for that presentation megan. Um, I think that was very helpful um I do just want to say that Which I am happy to phrase as a question that I feel like I still don't have an understanding of At the overall impact that this potential zoning will have on particularly my ward, but also the wider district and the wider city So I don't feel comfortable boating on this Zoning amendment until I have some of that information I think that information was shared with uvm when you last presented on this in january of 2022 and even before that through the mayor's office and The winter of 2021 And so I think there's been enough communication even though it's a different council That the council does not feel comfortable moving forward without additional information Which would come in the form of some kind of partnership. I do understand that you have a Board that doesn't want to commit future boards. We know something about that Being of a similar type of body that cannot and doesn't want to commit future bodies But I don't think we can Do a holistic approach without a partnership that has some commitments to each other. So that is what I'm looking for In order to have a better understanding of how this would impact The city but especially my ward, so That is all Thank you, councilor hightower. Are there other count council carpenter? um, thank you and I want to support what council hightower has to say I personally Would like to see you Work at all the nuances of the zoning But the elephant in the room and the elephant we've heard from We hear from elephants, but From all of our constituents is the concern about the enrollment at uvm versus the housing you control And Megan gave me a slide from this summer that says effectively you've been keeping Even you've increased enrollment But you've increased housing. I think there was like an 80 Unit differential in that and I think the real question of the day is We hear lots of information. You're going to add 3 000 students I don't know if that's a number a real number or not a real number, but I really think to get to the gut of this We just have to have some of that information and understand How your enrollment's going to relate to units that you have some control over And and that's I guess what I would like to ask is that you try to provide some of that so that we have an understanding if if we Permit 500 beds on trinity or whatever the number is Are you only going to increase by 500 students or are you going to increase by a thousand students? And so I think that's the conversation and the data I would like to see I hope we can do this all expeditiously because I think it's important to get more housing But it's only in the context of how many New students will be brought into this community That eventually might be unhoused Maybe I can respond and try to Give some insight here The I think we should be clear. We've got a clear directive from our board This is councilor hightower indicated that That we are not to enter into a formal agreement at caps or Limits enrollment, but at the same time the presidents have been very clear About his desire to not increase the size of the incoming classes for the undergraduate students and So to your point if we build 500 beds on trinity The thought was we wouldn't even be increasing 500 that He wants to stabilize the size of the incoming class therefore Stabilizing all the enrollment and as you probably know at the same time within tomorrow we close on on a deal where we begin construction in early march on 500 plus beds in south brunt so We're we're doing what we've done all the way along which is to build more housing As we need it and it took years for us to catch up In terms of enrollment versus the number of beds that we had built And I think if you saw the the chart that megan gave you in those After the first year or two There's about five years where we actually dropped enrollment after having built 400 plus beds, so That's that's the type of thing we want to do We want to ensure that our students have proper housing and we want to Keep keep the pace as we go along so that it's a Basically a net neutral impact on the community and the hope would be that it would actually help in the longer Thank you and just sort of two other comments. I would hope in this discussion that there would be Opportunities or projections of what you can do to both help you you've I think done a decent job of saying even but We're you know having six thousand undergraduates Off-campus or no, let's hear them around four forty eight hundred off-campus huge impact so I It'd be helpful to see what else you can do in addition and having worked for public instrumentality boards Having worked with the legislature The better part of my professional career um Brillington deserves to get a commitment from the university on this And they need to understand and I know many of your trustees personally This is something that we need a commitment on I don't think we should so be worried about Future boards if you're going to build 500 units at Trinity Then tell us what your enrollment is In the next couple of years vis-a-vis that I mean we're not saying do this for 30 years. We're saying What is your current plan and commit to that and um I think we should have a robust discussion because the university is a valued member of this community But it impacts this tremendously and I have lived here all my life. I'm a university graduate I love uvm, but I think the board Can make a commitment thank you counselor carpenter, um if uh If the representatives from the university, I don't know that you had introduced yourself And if you could just simply introduce yourself in your position with the university I have been asked To do that and and we should do that anyway. So thank you Hi, i'm lisa kingsbury. I'm the associate director of planning and planning design and construction at uvm I'm Richard cate. I'm vice president for finance administration and have been for the last 15 years at uvm. Thank you. Thanks so much Uh, were there other questions from the council? Uh, counselor brant to be followed by counselor bergman Thank you president paul. Thank you so much for coming I am the east district city counselor for wards one and ward eight and um I echo what i've heard from counselor high tower and from counselor carpenter We so value The partnership Of the city with the university and in this situation. I've heard from so many constituents that There is a real need for further commitment to a future partnership And the great concern about enrollment has come up and again and again and then in in Looking at this, uh, you know, there is The mention several times of if there is permit approval That the agreement would last for five years But The permit approval is approval for an enormous amount of potential development So I think that also needs to be addressed, you know, what would happen after five years and what would those projections be for enrollment For the number of students that would be leaving campus after sophomore year and that would then enter Into off-campus housing within the city So I just wanted to ask you about that five year mention several times and what would happen after that five years There isn't any plan beyond it. I think Anyone that's done any strategic planning knows how difficult it is to plan for anything beyond five years because we have no idea what You know, what the circumstances are going to be But there is no Kind of other plan that says well, we're going to wait five years and then significantly increase enrollment There are a lot of other barriers to significant increases in enrollment at uvm And much of it has to do with simply with the size of the community in total We're we're in a very small community and we recognize that And therefore And that's not a that's not a bad thing. It's but it is You know, I was looking at the census data for burlington over over the years I went back into ancient times when I was an undergraduate and Thought about it and and so there's been something like a 17 percent increase in the total population of burlington in the since 1970 Which was the latter part of my undergraduate career and so The community in total the population has not grown dramatically, but the composition of the community is I expect has changed because So many of those houses had many young children in them then that are not there now and and You need actually need more households for the same number of people Because now whereas then the may have been on average, maybe four people in a household Now there's probably two or one and a half or something and so There's a much broader issue of of housing need in burlington I think that goes way beyond the university. We are very clearly a piece of it. There's no argument about it whatsoever And we're trying to do our part But at the same time It's it's not that uvm has has mushroomed in size and not done anything about its house We have in fact kept pace if the entire city had been able to keep the pace the way uvm has We wouldn't be as tight as we are right now. I don't mean city as in city government. I mean, it's all the other stakeholders in the housing community in burlington and so you know the president Doesn't speak beyond that shorter time period, you know Because we really don't know You know, he doesn't know who's going to be president, you know, you know, and we don't know what board we'll have And I fully accept the fact that a zoning change is a more permanent thing I think and megan could could help you with this I don't think that there is the potential for the kind of Significant growth in the population on ternity that you may envision Because if we go up that 80 feet in those buildings that are back beyond the line Basically in that available space all all we can do is get not all but 500 students say the only other opportunity because of Lot coverage issues as well as the terrain as you know is a major ravine behind the property and that sort of thing The only other thing that really is a viable Proposal would be to take down what we call the back five, which are some lower Lower style 1970s buildings. I say low in terms of elevation What could happen there is there are 200 students there We could take those down and then go up to 80 feet But that's about all that all we could do maybe you get another three or 400 students beyond the 500 but after that we're It we run out of room. It's not A place where we're going to build thousands of beds One thing I'll just add I think to speak to your question about what happens after five years counselor brand I think what you were referring to was the Requirement as part of this owning amendment that information be provided about user groups that the development is intended to serve for the next five years Um One of the reasons that we looked at the five-year time horizon is that it's similar to the time horizon that is required of our joint park Our institutional parking management plans Those plans get resubmitted every five years And with annual reporting on the performance and I think at a certain point a development has been part of a campus community for Long enough that the user groups can be reflected in the annual Parking management plan that's or the five-year parking management plan that's routinely created and submitted to the drb, so This was intended to help us look at those user groups within the first five years before they get incorporated into that broader planning work Thank you, uh, I I just would reiterate that um Sharing with the community the short-term and the medium term and the long-term Propositions would help In our understanding what the university's intentions are and to help the city plan You know at the same time For much needed housing Downtown as well. Thank you very much Thank you. Councillor brant. We'll go to councillor bergman Thank you, president paul Like councillor carpenter And you vice president kate. I've been around for a really long time. So when you talk about the 1970s They're fond the early 1970s Are fond. I was a uvm student then I have to say that we have Not We have had a problem with uvm not housing as students Since then in my estimation and I got involved in housing work in burlington in the mid 1970s and from my perspective, this has been a problem I have seen both of you here for long periods of time because I've been kicking around here for a long time I would tell you that getting numbers from uvm Number is about enrollment and other vital things has been like pulling teeth It has not been a good and easy and transparent process and that really Since trust is a big piece of what you're hearing and what you have heard That's a that's something that we really need to get so we're We have had this conversation in real political terms Since I was on the council when the staffer building was Was built and the mou was Was first entered into then which I thought was actually a sweetheart deal For the for uvm because it didn't really commit you To solve the problem of housing It committed you to stay even and that zero and I appreciate you saying although Just like ronald reagan. I want verification as well as trust That you're going to try to stay to to net zero but from my perspective and How I look at this you have to do better You have to get to a negative point your impact on the housing crisis Is got to be lessened It is a crime What people are having to pay for rent in this city? it is It is unbelievable and so I need a commitment from you all to do that and I need it not just I appreciate the limits of the trinity campus Right, it is what it is But this is a comprehensive problem and it is you have a large community and you go Even beyond Your your your campus areas in terms of this and Truth is that's what's going on in south burlington now with your your graduate housing. So um I um and That the spinner place in wanouski is an example of you Looking at this. I remember when you had housing at fort ethan alan for graduate students I'm dating myself now But On the housing front This is what I need. I need improvement in the housing front. I do have a Question regarding the the the plan and the new permitted uses. So I just don't understand The the garages And I mean I understand garages. I understand we want to have parking. I understand you want to tuck parking in but you know We are We're taking some traffic off of Uh colchester av to put bike lanes. We're making a host of other transportation related Um changes in the city vis-a-vis parking and other things so the So If we put a parking garage On this what does that do to the availability for housing? What does that do for I mean, it's a permitted it permitted use Explain explain this I can I will stop babbling and just explain this to me Great. So the intent with incorporating parking garages as a permitted use is really to just offer flexibility in terms of how to provide That resource to any new growth or development on that campus the institutional parking management plan process really intends to Limit the amount of new parking resources that are in the main campus areas in general and to Require a process through which the institutions are demonstrating how they're meeting But also reducing their parking demand within the core campus area So the intent of this is not to promote the creation of parking resources on that campus But just to give more flexibility for how that campus may evolve if parking is to be a minor component of a new development project um I think any like any housing If parking is to be a part of that a decision about how to efficiently provide that parking is a major aspect And certainly parking garages can be a more efficient way from a land use perspective Of incorporating parking on a site if it's to be provided than a large surface parking lot for example So that's really the intent there and I you know, uvm is welcome to speak to their plans, but uh, this is really just about providing that flexibility So, uh, my hope is that you will provide the ordinance committee when or if it ever gets there With more details, not just about the intended consequences, but For you to think about unintended consequences and then us try to be able to to have that conversation, you know, there are traffic Issues as well not just the land use but You know Traffic flow and what have you congestion? Traffic management as opposed to traffic demand management, you know, all of that stuff that We Do impact fees for So In terms of the in terms of the the permitted use for parking garages I would like For the council to receive much More information about this just so that we have a real clear sense and We know exactly what we're doing. I I appreciate good intentions that I also do Appreciate us thinking very seriously about this because this is a an evolving area of planning and Infrastructure construction in the city and we we need to Be particularly attentive to it Thank you Thank you, councillor bergman. We will go to councillor hightower and then to councillor shannon um I won't repeat myself, but I will say that I want to give flexibility in rezoning. I've support the zoning in theory have for a long time over My years of involvement in the city I've had maybe two or three people say that they didn't want a new setback requirement And I've had dozens of people say that they think uvm should build New better housing there um But I've also had and none of those people think that uvm is being a good partner and that they shouldn't be held accountable I've had hundreds of people say that uvm needs to be held accountable in providing that housing Um, and no one's it's it doesn't matter if they're students It doesn't matter if they're living on trinity campus or not. It doesn't matter if they're staff It doesn't matter if they're professors. It doesn't matter if they're neighbors. Everybody feels the same way about this um So I'm I'm a little bit surprised that a year later. We're still More than a year later. We're still in the same position of saying we want to give you this but we think We think you need to come to the table with With some more information and some guarantees um And I understand all the difficulties around that But zoning is more permanent than presidents it's more permanent than the board of trustees um And the university makes long term promises all the time you make For your promise every year to high school seniors you make Tenure promises every it's just there's so there's plenty of promises that you do feel comfortable making I'm asking this to be One of them and I don't I don't have a timeline of what that looks like. I'm not asking for 50 years I'm not asking for 10 years, but I think start with really coming to the table and helping the community understand How this will impact them um And I think I think I'm also confused because Even though we hear you know that it's been about stable Then at the same time where I don't know what that stability means because I'm hearing all of these rumors of triples where there haven't been triples and um Just the quality of housing and redstone and converse I don't understand what the plan is as a whole for making sure that housing that students are well housed In word one and across the city um So just want to reiterate um That I feel really uncomfortable with this I don't think uvm is doing enough and I say that is that someone who Lived on campus all four years of undergrad in my second year of grad school At great institutions who allowed that or made that possible for me and With that I will stop bothering president paul and close It's quite all right. Quite all right. This is an important issue and uh, this is board one um With that and seeing no other counselors in the queue. I will go to counselor. Uh, I'm sorry counselor counselor jang And then we will go to counselor uh shannon Wasn't she before me? I know you're welcome to go ahead wonderful. Thank you um, thank you so much director taro for explaining that what this is about And it's I'm just surprised how the discussion is going I want to circle back about your presentation about the ordinance and what's next Can you paint me a picture if a vote in support of moving into the ordinance committee? Then when will we have like a final resolution about the agreement of building it? I think that ultimately depends on the ordinance committee schedule and ability to review this amendment If the council were supportive of referral and bringing it back for consideration It take it typically takes about A month or two months for it to come before the council for a full vote for adoption Thank you. I think that's an important aspect about this discussion Voting yes or voting no Does not allow uvm to build the Trinity campus tomorrow That's also be a little bit proactive and I'm asking all my Colleagues to just follow the process And I completely agree with Everyone here about the lack of housing from uvm Right and the need of having the uvm held accountable to build more housing And also to remind people that we have so many different agreements with uvm capital planned agreement between uvm and shamplain college We have an agreement of uvm in, you know, 10 years like 2009 2019 And I do believe That's where we need to focus our energy and our fight on and not this right I think I think I would be supporting this like to move it forward, but I will don't know where I will be when Until uvm sits down with the administration to definitely talk about Your enrollment and also the number of housing that you we will require you to build and get this city A great in a great footing for everyone So thank you. I'll be supporting this. Thank you. Thank you very much councillor jeng We will now go to We will now go to councillor shannon for a motion Um, thank you councillor paul before I make a motion. Is it okay if I ask some questions? Um In the in the memo that we received Uh, it it references the 10 point housing plan Um and defines three major zoning amendments to support overarching goals including Opening new on-campus university of vermont student housing opportunities for by rezoning the former Trinity campus to reduce uvm's pressure on the housing market um, I want to say that I support that and I um like councillor hightower. I'm not really interested in in really micromanaging that I really want uvm To be able to build Functional and desirable housing for their students um I am the mother of a 20 year old college student who lives in a similar situation to uvm. It doesn't go to uvm, but um The situation is the same. She is she was housed for the first two years and then um, she is set loose into Market housing in a terribly competitive market um, where the quality of housing Is poor and our house much of our student housing stock. I think you would all agree It meets minimum housing standards. That's a minimum standard. It's not It's not a very high standard and and they're often on the brink. Um they The lack of predictability for the students Regarding whether or not they will be able to get housing is just so sad I am not on uvm's parent facebook page But I imagine it looks very much like the facebook page that I am on with parents so desperate um, their kids, you know trying to find housing and Really being victimized by the housing market Uh, I agree with councillor bergman when he talked about um, you know uvm having committed to sustaining the status quo and mr. Kate your references to Keeping pace and demonstrating that uvm has been keeping pace Uh, I too Want uvm to do more than keep pace. I want that for the students I want that for the parents and I want that for the community um I want to make sure that I understand the um This the current situation and and I may not and I don't want this to sound accusation at all at all but um We did have an mo u with uvm And that committed uvm to the status quo Which as I've said, I wasn't very satisfied with that, but it was better than nothing um, and my understanding is that uvm backed out of that agreement And okay, you're shaking your head. So I'll just let you answer to that it expired It we didn't back out of it expired and we did not Based on input from the board. We did not renew it Okay, great. Thank you for the clarification that agreement All those years ago in 2008 2009 And can you share why you did not renew it? The board at this point I think the microphone might help to get a little closer the board at this point Did not deem it something they wanted to do the board in those days back in 2009 said yes, and there were And I have to say one of the one of the challenges that that is confronting me and In all of this is that one of one of the commitments of city made in that agreement was to provide the zoning changes on the tour of the campus And that never happened And thus there's this concern on part of my board about what would happen or not happen Based on how it's proceeded with the city all these you know, it's been more than a decade and we haven't made any progress really on the tour of the zoning So if you look at it, it talks about zoning generally and then it talks about tour of the So that that's one of the reasons why we are where we are Thank you for that response. That's helpful. Um, I was here in 2008 and my recollection was that we did grant Some zoning changes at that time you did but not not fraternity Okay I as I said, I I support your plan and I support your meeting the needs of your students, but We also need to meet our community needs and I think that that is the priority of this council And I understand that uvm uvm represents uvm as you should But we represent the entire community We care about the health of uvm, but we care about the health of our neighborhoods And it's not very good right now the status quo Is extremely problematic and for me to move forward with this I need to know how you're going to be a participant and a partner as others have said In improving the status quo in providing more housing on campus for students St. Michaels has done some beautiful on-campus housing and has done a great job Their students know where they can live all four years of their college experience I was part of a focus group believe it or not prior to being a city counselor immediately prior and the uh, it was about uvm housing and it was a brainstorming session and We were invited to just throw out ideas And the idea I threw out was housing all the students on campus It's only a brainstorming session and I could not persuade the person running this to even put that idea on the board So this has been a very long-term problem And maybe we're not going to get to getting all of uvm students on campus in the foreseeable future But we need to be making progress in that direction and we need reliable commitments From uvm and what I hear from you is we don't need to worry about that because there are barriers to that growth if If that is the case that there are Barriers to uvm's growth and I do see you shaking your head. I'll let you respond. Um Uh, I don't see the problem with codifying it, but now you can tell me why there are not barriers to uvm's growth Yeah, I'm sure I didn't There are there are some barriers. I don't mean that the That I'm not trying to pass them off as some sort of rationale why you should approve this I'm just talking about the reality of the situation. I think I think it's important to note that If this if of allowing us to build on trinity doesn't work for The community and for the council uvm still has is prioritizing the construction of house That's why we're building a 500 beds. We are right now in south brook. That's why i'm pursuing multiple other options because I I can't be sure that this that trinity is going to work. So if trinity doesn't work I I still have a mandate from the president of the board to build more housing Because we we do care very much about the need our students and having them have good housing So if we can't do it on trinity then Then we'll simply have to explore other places If if you can do it on trinity, will you also pursue those other options? Yes counselor paul Are are you ready for a motion or did you want to continue the discussion? I mean president paul My apologies. That's quite a right. I Yeah The motion that you would make is not debatable. So hey once where once you make that motion We cannot be discussing this any further Counselor jang, is there something that you wish to offer before we go to a motion? And it will be very quick, please. Of course. Go ahead. Thank you. Thank you again for being here And I was just wondering if you can please Let us know what you have heard from the council for your board to understand What the what the message you will be sending to make sure we you captured what this council been saying For your board The summary message on the topic Yeah Yes UVM believes that we need more housing for our students that we participated We do not believe we are the sum total of the brook and housing problem, but we want to do our part and and some of you have said We're not trying We did keep pace all that time That's not that's not the goal anymore. The goal is actually to go negative How far we can go is another question Trinity's part of that equation but We need to do it regardless and maybe one last sentence We do very clearly understand and appreciate the situation for the council as well as a community We want to be good neighbors I once served on the city council and was a City manager, so I know where it's like to sit At a table like this. Thank you councillor Chang. We will go to the mayor and then we will go back to councillor Shannon Thank you Mr. Kate, I Heard something for you in the Long discussions we've had about this issue that I've never heard before are you suggesting that One of the reasons that the board isn't comfortable with agreeing to a continuation of the agreement that we've had something like that Is because of dissatisfaction on the board's part about how The city has moved forward with rezoning the trinity campus It is one factor The fact that it has not that's been discussed at board meetings and that's been given as a is a dissatisfaction on this That is a fact Now I will not tell you it's the only one But it is a now my understanding is that agreement again never raised prior by uvm and the Long discussions about this but my understanding is that that committed the City to working with uvm for zoning change if uvm was interested in that I'm not aware of uvm up until this point over the last 11 years Coming to the city and voicing Desired work towards this until until this began Under different administrations we did raise the issue All right, well This administration has been going on a surprising long period of time at this point, so It is it is nothing in this administration. We work well with your team And it's nothing for this council. It's just it's just one thing it was Supposed to have happened as part of the package and it didn't happen I'm not telling you that's the whole the whole My enemy so if a concern of the board is is the city's willingness to follow through and Deliver on this zoning change you know I would certainly be happy to sit with you and president caramella and Negotiate very clearly binding terms. I mean we're gonna be on the cusp of at the time. We're looking to Uh, have you extend the agreement? We'd be ready to pass the the ordinance. I believe so I think that if if that's an interest of the board that should be something we We should be able to readily address and um, I've been aware of this concern previously. I would have Been working to address it sooner. I think they don't view it as a trade-off now something I'm on it kind of a general context for the whole discussion Mayor weinberger did you all you all set? As I say this motion is not debatable. So if there's anyone else who has anything to say we will do it before we go to councillor shannon Seeing none. I will go to councillor shannon. Okay. Thank you president paul Um, I think it has become even more clear at this moment than it was at the beginning of this meeting that Um, there really need to be discussions at the executive level Um between the city and uvm to resolve issues that cannot be resolved in an ordinance committee or by this council um, and for that reason and in the hopes that we will be able to Uh, reach some agreement that gives us a window into Um future plans for uvm and a commitment to as we've we've all said all around the table to make things better Not just sustain the status quo Um, I will make the motion to table this Thank you councillor shannon. So a motion has been made second table need a Need a second seconded by councillor hightower as I have said a few times a motion to table is not debatable So we will go to a vote Um, and I think it probably would be a good idea if the clerk would call the rule This is a motion to table. So a yes vote is to table the motion and a tabling is to is not for a date certain It is indefinitely councillor barlow. Yes councillor bergman. Yes councillor brant. Yes councillor carpenter. Yes councillor jeng. No councillor freeman. Yes councillor hightower. Yes councillor mcgee. Yes councillor shannon. Yes City council president paul. Yes nine eyes One day one access So the motion to table passes 11 what is it? I'm sorry 11 10 to one to one nine to one to one um and uh Wanted to wanted to express our thanks to planning director makin tuttle to uh representatives from the university of vermont for being here Uh, I know that probably this isn't the the news that you were hoping to hear But I hope that what you have heard and what we all hope that you've heard is that um There is a strong and a desire to work with you to find real solutions and And contributions that the university of vermont can make to address our community's housing crisis in a meaningful accountable And an impactful way Thank you so much for being here That will move us to item 7.03, which is an ordinance z a 23 dash 0 2 on inclusionary zoning And um for this item, I will go to a motion from councillor brant Thank you president paul I move to consider this a first reading wave the reading suspend our rules and set for a public hearing Thank you councillor brant seconded by uh, councillor hightower Uh, councillor brant, did you want the floor back or should we go to our guests? Let's go to our guests. Okay wonderful. So we have with us Uh making a second appearance uh Planning director tuttle we also have a point of information Um, did that motion include a referral to the ordinance committee? No talking about no it is did not Thank you. It did not it was to pay it place to spend the rules You can take a look if you'd like we're happy to speak to that and actually that that that raises a good point A number of people have asked so we do have um Principal planner uh charles dillard um and cito director brian pine with us and maybe you could start off with an Answer to that question is a number of people have asked. Yeah, absolutely Um, I think at the last meeting when we were talking about the south end I said Normally we don't come to you with an amendment on first read for discussion as part of your deliberative agenda But we're really breaking those uh process rules lately. So, um, I actually Was going to invite the mayor to introduce this item But yes our request for you tonight is to suspend your rules and to warn this amendment for a public hearing At an upcoming meeting and we're going to ask the mayor to speak a little bit about the background of why this is being introduced And why it's being requested to be considered with urgency And then we will present to you the details of what the ordinance is offering Point of information. I just need to have more information on the Effect of suspending the rules. So if you could just walk Through that aspect that would be really helpful because it seems like a hidden ball right now Certainly we'll turn to um acting city attorney sturd event So typically um under the rules you would refer it to the ordinance committee Um, the ordinance committee members have been meeting with the planning commission on this item Um for a couple of meetings. So they have um had a review of it Um, and and I think that's part of the comfort of why for the um to suspend rules but Basically by suspending the rules and setting it you are Not sending it to the ordinance committee and in setting it for the public hearing point of information I assume it was one meeting because I missed one meeting and I assume it was that meeting. Is that possible? The ordinance committee did join for two meetings. Um, they were both held during february. Is that right? Oh during february One was january. Sorry at the end of january and then just last week actually was the second one um In terms of the question about the effect of suspending the rules Typically when the ordinance committee reviews an item When they are done with it as part of their referral back to the full city council They direct us to warn an amendment for a public hearing And at the time that that amendment is published in the paper and amendment becomes effective Um, what we're asking tonight instead is for the council to consider suspending your rules Um, and instead of referring it to the committee before warning that public hearing upon your action To suspend and warn a hearing we would publish it in the paper and it would become effective. So It's a a bit of a shorter process than normal, but um the same effectiveness of the amendment applies At the risk of belaboring points of information just so I can understand where Is the debate therefore going to be had is it only going to be had? At this council and a full council, um, will there be any involvement of a committee? it Is there a second reading That's part of this You you will have a second reading and discussion as part of a public hearing before any action on part of the council to adopt Or reject the amendment And we did invite the ordinance committee participation in the planning commission meetings as well to help provide That committee the awareness of the purpose of the amendment and for them to engage in Asking questions as the as the planning commission Prepared this for a referral to you So just to be clear The the debate that on the substance of this will be had here at the council Based on public hearing comments and based on the conversation Here All right. Thank you Uh, we'll go to mayor Weinberger Great. Thank you president paul I do appreciate the chance just to kind of level set remind remind us sort of how we got here and um in and and um I want to emphasize that that um I think I think that background leads to why we um are proposing this process and and our our Hoping the council will support this and um, you know, of course, if they're as we get into this further There's a need for for committee action. Nothing Is that's not precluded from happy in the future. I'm hoping it won't be needed the um in November at the beginning of November this council Approved unanimously if I remember right the new development agreement the amended restated development agreement on the city place project um with uh For the first time in years a real sense of strong partnership happening between the city and the developer on uh On the public private partnership that is city place. This is a unique development within the city at this point both in its its size and its ambition to re Reconnect public streets and build tens of millions of dollars of public infrastructure in addition to private improvements and it's uh From the start this we've known that this would not succeed without close collaboration between the city and the developer and um the If people remember the context in um in november the developer came to us saying they wanted to they didn't want to lose another winner they wanted action um at At the city place site now. They didn't want to effectively perhaps lose a whole another year by waiting um and They wanted to do so even though they were quite clear with with us and with the public that they had not lined up All the details of this project they had not lined up all of the financing and they were still still working on important details details And they were ready to move forward with that kind of understanding with us and um we We approved the We approved the the the agreement unanimously and they have made good on on their commitments since then as I'm sure everyone's aware uh the site right now is um finally along last a Be high of activity. There's a great deal happening there Despite the fact that there still do remain Some some important agreements and details to be nailed down it was flagged for all of us uh in that agreement that the inclusionary zoning ordinance was one area where potential change might be needed They voiced a concern At that point that they're the way in which They wanted to proceed and importantly the way in which champlain housing trust is their partner wanted to proceed that there may be challenges meeting the parity requirements of the uh current inclusionary zoning ordinance The parity requirements are something that uh concerns about this have been long known and had previously been discussed and and uh um It was not um shocking uh that they were raising this concern and we thought it was it was it was uh reasonable to suggest that we would attempt to with uh Aware of their concern work with the planning commission this council to consider a change No binding commitments were made in that agreement But it was quite explicit in the agreement that we would undergo the process that we have gone through Since that time I very much appreciate this team that has worked hard to Make good on that city commitment and to bring to you a Change that has been approved By strong vote from the planning commission and which I think is ready for your action tonight and one that you can and for the reasons you'll you'll hear You can be confident that a vote for this while Helping this current development and likely future developments is in no way um Undermining the the intent or the the strength of of the inclusionary zoning ordinance So I I think we voted before you now is something that um I strongly support and that I I do ask Hope that the council will take the step of warning it for a public hearing tonight and consider Uh continuing forward in this expedited fashion given that it is very much in the city's interest to see this project go continue forward and for For the project to succeed with its Nailing down of its various Investment agreements and uh final programmatic decisions Uh, we are living in what continues to be a volatile economic time and uh, it is From my perspective it is consistent with the idea The city is going to be a good partner here for us to make this decision in in an expedited fashion Again, there has been significant discussion With uh ordinance committee members coming to this point as well as a significant amount of review of the language You'll hear more about that in a moment. And uh, I um hope it's something that that we can uh continue to act on Together as we did with the development agreement back in november with that Thank you president paul for the chance to get off. Thank you mayor weinberger So we'll go back to we do have a couple of counselors already in the queue, but I Appreciate you might probably have a power point. Okay. That sounds great. Uh, we'll turn it over to charles then to walk through The two specific changes that are proposed. Great. Thank you. Thanks, my uh, charles earlier principal planner offset city playing good evening So as the as the mayor said, let me see if I can make this there we go Uh, so this amendment is really about the parity requirements in today's inclusionary zoning standards that require that in a In a development where inclusionary zoning units are required that they be provided at a at a bedroom mix in unit size That is rough, you know, basically equivalent to the market rate units and For a number of reasons. I think this is problematic. And so this amendment addresses addresses this in a couple ways and so Regarding bedroom mix And unit size the gross floor area ratio that we're going to be talking about is the same for each of the the proposed so With gross floor area today With the bedroom mix rather today If a if a development comes in at, you know, uh, 50% one bedrooms and 25% and 25% two and threes The inclusionary zoning units are required to to be at be provided at that same ratio Uh, the the reality of the market is that it does not always the the demand for Market rate units does not always match the demand for affordable housing units And so the the proposal would allow In lieu of complying with the current standard An alternative approach wherein if that project allocates a gross floor area of the Inclusionary zoning is that is greater than the percent required In that inclusionary zoning table Then they can alter the bedroom mix similarly In lieu of complying with the unit size standard Where in today? Units of the same bedroom type Have to be at least 90% as big as The market rate units They can be provided at a different size if again that total gross floor area of the inclusionary zoning units is Greater than the percent required for those units During the the course of the discussions about this particular aspect staff planning commission members of the public Michael Monti from the shamblin housing trust offered suggestions that When this alternative compliance method is proposed that Minimum unit sizes be provided for each of those unit types And so that's what you see at the bottom of the screen So again when this alternative is provided there would be minimum unit sizes and this would this would protect against Scenarios where you know affordable housing units might be provided at just the minimum housing level so again The rationale For for changing this bedroom mix Is that today the market demand for inclusionary zoning units? By number of bedroom types can differ sometimes significantly from that of the market rate units At times the inclusionary zoning units may tend toward more bedrooms other times They may have fewer bedrooms We have a scenario that sort of examples scenario that I can run through in just a moment Also specific in-demand market rate project types have new corollary in the affordable housing market You know including student housing co-housing some other housing types So the example is you know, it's a project with 100 units with a 15 i z requirement Where all of the units are four bedrooms Today the the inclusionary zoning units would all be required to be four bedrooms and While there may be while there is demand in fact, you know, we've heard from from cht and others four two three and even four bedroom units It's not likely that There is demand for this number of large four bedroom units in one building often cht Has their finger on the pulse of what exactly The type of affordable housing is demanded at a specific site or generally in the market So the proposal would allow The the alteration of that bedroom mix And I think one thing that's just really important to reiterate because we spent a lot of time talking about this at the Planning commission level is that the specific example that's in front of you Contemplates a situation where the market rate units are all four bedrooms and the the demand for Inclusionary units might vary from four bedrooms and want to have a broader range of unit types The opposite could be true as well where a market A market project may want to build mostly one bedroom units But our ordinance currently precludes the units from being larger than one bedroom units So this provides flexibility both for the units to be larger or smaller than the market Thanks Megan beat me to it That's all right So regarding unit size The requirement today is that iz units be no smaller than 90 percent Of the average gross floor area of the market rate units with the same bedroom Count so if a one bedroom is 1000 or that's that'd be large if a three bedroom is 1000 square feet A three bedroom affordable housing unit would have to be 900 square feet By allowing this alternative approach That'll all allows this altered bedroom mix the The market the sorry the amendment would allow for unit types to differ In in size specific in demand market rate project types Again have no corollary in the affordable housing market these very large units And establishing minimum unit sizes when the gross floor area ratio Approaches use will guarantee adequate and market typical unit sizes So again, those unit sizes were on that first slide. I can go back to that if you'd like And I think the reason that this is necessary is just in the absence of requiring Units to be compared to units of a similar size This standard in some ways becomes irrelevant There's no minimum size that a unit must be If there's more flexibility in the bedroom mix, so providing some flexibility in the standard is necessary as well I would just like to note that the The percentage of units stays the same. So I don't know if that was really clear But I just want to reiterate that there's no proposal to change that percentage And that this is really In many ways just a surgical fix for a bit of a A challenge that the ordinance creates in terms of matching up The market rate bedroom configuration and sort of trying to correct what is really a Mismatch that can prevent new inclusionary units from being developed and that the The square footage requirement that You must have at least the percentage of square feet that would normally be required as the inclusionary units Also has to be At least that much actually greater than the percentage that is required. So I think that's a Important provision that's a bit of a safeguard here as well And I would just add that we ran this through the housing organizations that are in the market and There was a broad consensus that this was a good public policy direction to go Thanks very much. Was there anything else you wanted to add? Okay, so we will We'll go to councilor the council for questions and comments I believe councilor carpenter. You had your hand up wasn't sure But if you do, please go ahead to be followed by councilor hightower Um, I think you clarified. So the planning commission Um, all voted for this. Am I right? The planning commissioners were part of the first discussion and five of them were present for the second and the ones that were in attendance voted unanimously and um We warned this and it allows it to go ahead But there'll be a second Shot at the apple in the sense of we could we can change it Even though it will we'll go ahead to accommodate city place Yeah, it's my understanding right so and uh Acting attorney sort of it can help uh provide some clarification to just because I know the question often comes up About how much can you change something after you've held a public hearing? Um, so I think Certainly when uh, if you warn this for a public hearing, it will come back to you for another discussion At which time you could consider uh adoption You could make further tweaks Hold another public hearing Or you could reject it. So certainly by referring it forward tonight While statutorily it puts it into effect. It does not mean that you cannot have further discussion or or modification I believe that to be accurate, but I just Confirming it and and then want to give my strong support of it because this In the years when I was housing developer This really is problematic that you don't have apples to apples and oranges to oranges when we um went in A number of years ago to require Affording housing developers to give high priority and set aside units for folks that are houseless um You know, they may not want a two bedroom apartment And be mindful IZ does not require you to subsidize the rent. It only requires you to set Uh a lower rent. So even though they're making them available It still doesn't reduce them. So For example two studios may be a much better fit To serve two houseless people than a two bedroom apartment Which of course is a demand for but This is just a big match. So I really do feel and I've actually felt this way prior to city place that this is something that we really needed to Flex about and it will get us Equal space That we have now and potentially more units and I think that's really an important point To point out it was interesting that mr. Kate talked about the housing problem And the number of households which is gets wonky quick But one of our housing demand problems is we we have more demand for units and This is actually gives us a little flexibility to create more units In the same amount of space, which I think is a good thing And I think one thing I'll just add to that I appreciate the perspective from when you worked as a housing developer I'll say that the Two points that are in front of you tonight Were items that were debated all the way up until the last minute through the multiple committees and Groups that were involved in the comprehensive review of our inclusionary policy from several years ago And in fact, michael monty was at one of the last joint committee meetings that I remember Before that got referred to the council Really advocating that we think differently about these standards And so it's in a lot of ways. It's no surprise that this has come up again Okay, thank you. Councilor carpenter. We'll go to councilor hightower and then council bergman I think I have to start with an apology because I just found the email for the second meeting Which I have to admit I was feverish at the time So I must have just clicked on it and completely forgotten anything that I read So I would have been able to attend anyway, but I apologize for missing the meeting with the planning commission and I I'm also supportive of this. I think my only concern is on the The minimum sizing so I've got some ordinance level questions around that if that's okay um Which my I the our minimum bedroom size is 70 square feet in our current ordinance. Is that correct? Okay, great word is saying yes The comment is it's 150 for the first bedroom And then 70 square feet for every additional bedroom. Okay, great. Thank you. That's helpful Um, I feel okay. I think about So I think it's also hard for me to not compare it to I live in a 1000 square foot Two bedroom unit. So it's hard for me to not compare it to that and when I start to think about a four bedroom Fitting into my two bedroom. It starts to feel very claustrophobic very quickly And I think beyond that I think it just I do I do think I think you have this discussion in the planning commission based on Sharon Bishop's comments, but it's like I do think there is a need for four bedrooms at an inclusionary zoning level For families and so forth and I just don't but I don't want to Over incentivize like unlivable kind of four bedroom units with very very tiny kitchens in one bathroom and Very small bedrooms, which is really all that a 1050 can accommodate. I would definitely more I think even the three bedroom a 950. I think I can be okay with that But I would definitely just thinking about how much a kitchen has to expand Realistically to accommodate the amount of people who are living in a four bedroom I would feel more comfortable if we changed that to like 1150 So that it's more of like the same type of increase that we saw with the other units So I might I'm going to leave that for folks to discuss, but I think beyond that I do feel comfortable with this proposal and Thank you Great. Thanks. Councilor hightower We'll go to council bergman Oh, I just I was only going to offer. I think there is a slide here just showing we did do some research from other communities in terms of minimum unit sizes To help provide some context I don't know if you wanted to say anything about that No, the only thing I would add is that most most communities that we did research to allow some flexibility in the unit sizes Sometimes depending on location. Sometimes other issues, but there's almost always some flexibilities Burlington is really the outlier and not allowing sort of any flexibility in the izi units I would also just note that the Level of production for four bedroom units is extremely low Really in the market. It's quite low. So I think Whether 1150 Could be inserted in place of 1050 and I don't think it would have a negative impact. So if that's what you're Staff I would agree with that And sorry, I had the wrong slide up. These are the these are the minimum unit sizes for some pure cities including south burlington Uh, and New York City. There's a couple others that we looked at but these are Hearing closely to where burlington and the proposal are And and just to note there the ones that are shown as burlington's former standards These were in the ordinance prior to That comprehensive review they were taken out because they were static and not responsive to the changing needs of households um And so I think that was that was one of the things that we talked about when this came through the planning commission Is just making sure that we're setting standards that are at a level where they can be flexed upward Since the ordinance will not allow for them to be flexed downward So I think 1150 helps kind of split that difference in terms of what we've provided versus what used to be in our ordinance Sorry, if I can just and I think also even just looking at the new york city standards And the fact that some some cases were below them. I think Um, maybe not unreasonable to move it. So maybe I'll just go ahead and make that motion actually then to change the four bedroom That in line 70 um Change the line v I'm sorry. I will send this after v period four plus bedroom 1050 sf to four plus bedroom 1150 sf Could you could you repeat where you are line what line 70? Yep So you would change the four plus bedroom from 1050 square feet to 1150 square feet um second Well before we go to before we go to that we that actually is a Is does that qualify as a minor technicality? Yes You're not on. Yep. Thank you um The the change is after you have like the public hearing so you can make a change to it now and and not have a concern over the substantive Changes. Okay. So do we need to even get that? I mean it's it would probably be a friendly amendment anyway Is that is that friendly to you? Okay, and you're the seconder. So I guess it's friendly to yourself Um, okay, so we will make that change um Did you have anything else? Okay, so we will go to councillor bergman So this last amendment and what have you actually speaks to the difficulty of this process because It's if we come up with changes, this is going to be hard much harder than doing it in a committee Just so that folks know and maybe you guys don't You know I'm looking at faces and they go I don't know what you're talking about or something Believe me. This will this will not be a pretty sight if we don't have friendly amendments on this So your memo I was like, uh, I have this note. I happen to agree I obviously I just tried to second that uh, that amendment uh around the the floor area um That councillor hightower just said uh, and I was like, okay I would you share your research on this stuff and I look behind me because it's behind me And uh, I I see that it is there, but it's not in the memo right, uh So again the You're gonna if for this process to work well and I'm sort of moving To not voting against suspending the rules just to let you know um Require is going to require staff to be sharing lots of stuff in memos At least for the one maybe maybe the one only one person here who has his back to that and has to turn and go back and forth, right? Uh, so I just want to say that I guess um, I've got a concern that We are not making um our um inclusionary units big enough for folks You know, uh, that's part of the you know, the uh The segregation that we are actually trying to eliminate We we want equity in it and so if We need to to really be considering You know the fairness and adequacy of these units Sarah um Counselor carpenter made a comment that I just want to confirm in terms of the understanding if You are going in this new flexible mix to Instead of putting in four bedroom places put in one bedroom places that means that you're going to be putting in more units You know and so and You're gonna end up I saw she shaking yes, so that would be a correct assumption. Yes it's very likely because the requirement for Uh, the minimum gross floor area of of residential uses to be dedicated to inclusionary units. So if there is um A significant difference like that in the market versus the inclusionary units It's very likely that there will be more inclusionary units than what otherwise have been required. I mean it could be less Units if you were if they were to flip the other way Flip the other well the minimum is still that 15 of the units have to be provided as izi right, right Say that again in Please it would still have to meet the minimum But it could be that there's fewer than would have otherwise been provided under this flexible scenario that the ordinance change allows Could you explain that just a little bit more? That what you're just the last comment sure the if if 15 percent is the minimum and you just meet the minimum You will have a The square footage actually doesn't need to meet the minimum by the way So you will not even meet the 15 percent of square feet of the project But that's an important distinction because under the yeah under today's ordinance exactly Because what we're allowing for is A project that exceeds the inclusionary requirement and Exceeds the square footage Percentage the percentage of a required unit must also be expressed in the square footage So I think that's In other words You the reduction in the In the bedroom size that you're allowing here will not result in less square footage That will be izid in and a project and Okay, so so I've I've got that at the end of the day. This does not reduce any of them and depending on the The average sale it could go from 15 percent to 20 to 25 Right So that has to be met that would still the number of units would still need to be met And then in addition they would need to meet the minimum requirement for the gross floor area as well Okay, could I just Friendly interrupt could we just go to the couple slides ahead just so I can see it again while Counselor berkman is asking questions just the one The one with the comparison of the square footage Sorry to interrupt you want the unit size mix the comparison or the bedroom mix comparison. This is the one, right? All right, I think one other thing that I did just want to mention and and maybe what part of what Director pine was trying to say also is that Under today's ordinance if someone is providing just the minimum requirement both in the number of units That have all the bedroom parity met And are providing them at 90 percent of the size of the market rate units That really means only about 13 percent of the gross residential floor area would have to be Occupied by iz so this is kind of moving the needle both in terms of the total portion of the building and in terms of Potentially, you know increasing the number of units that would have otherwise been provided while also then providing that flexibility for the bedroom mix And that's because this is linked to the percentage Of the that has to be iz as opposed to the square That 90 percent Yeah, okay And I did want to speak to there was a question or a concern that was shared about the size of the Izzy the minimum sizes for the iz units Again, I think you know this is to help provide that flexibility as we move away from the bedroom parity requirement So that there's a minimum standard, but again, these are minimum standards And these only apply in the case where someone is taking advantage of this alternative compliance method So in the case where a project is delivering units where the bedroom Mix parity requirement is still being met The 90 requirement is still applicable And I think when we shared the sizes of the units the recommended minimum unit sizes Previously we did run this by Both cht and a market rate developer Eric ferrell at cambrian rise And the unit sizes were within a range that the market both of those markets have been providing for units of those bedroom sizes um Again, I think that given the the process that sharing that information becomes exceedingly important Since you are making me a committee member and I have to then You know deal with all the details Unfortunately for everybody that it's just the the sort of way I just to say that I am Convinced that this is an appropriate process as long as its integrity is Kept as I am indicating by sharing lots of information and being able to weather the the potential Um Problems that just procedurally go with making changes if we decide that they're going to be changes. I'm not sure that There are but it's just inherent in it. And so when y'all propose to uh to expedite Things that you got to accept the the bad sides of of that process. Thank you I'll be supporting this as a long there's a long way of saying I'll support this great. Thanks. Councillor Bergman Councillor Freeman and I don't know and We'll go back to councillor carpenter. Thank you president ball. Um, I don't know if I'll be supporting this. I feel I think the point that Councillor Bergman raised about the equity issue with the square footage. I think It just Yeah, off the cuff it just concerns me I think the reason why I brought this up again to me new york city is like notorious for putting people in shoe boxes um, and I just The the numbers don't look great like in comparison when I think of that and and just yeah, and the and councillor bergman's point about the equity issue I I guess I'm on the fence, but I I understand and I hear um The use of the word, you know providing flexibility in that framing Um, but I don't think we want flexibility at the expense of um, sort of quality and quality, um Housing and I think I think councillor also use the word sort of in the sense of it being segregated is a strong word, but it's We're not creating affordable housing. That's going to be of a lower quality or of a Yeah, I don't I just it just concerns me. So I'm not sure I'm on the fence But I think there will be more conversation. So Great. Thanks councillor freeman. Uh, we'll go to councillor carpenter and then back to councillor hightower Then maybe we can uh, maybe we can go to a vote. Um, just a couple questions. I'm a little confused Does burlington in general have minimum unit sizes? In our minimum housing code we do but in our zoning ordinance, we do not So these minimum unit sizes apply only to the inclusionary units when this So what are the city minimum? The unit sizes that oh, thank you. There you go. These are the, uh, minimum housing code minimum unit size requirements Okay, so the iz are significantly over The city minimum. So these are much larger than the city minimum. Um, I think that's important to point out and they're a minimum not a maximum the developer will They'll develop them. I was sees fit in a hundred percent or not even a hundred percent affordable unit, but building that cht might own in entirety For affordable housing, they will make the decision on the unit sizes and this has been vetted with them. So cht when It built its own freestanding building These are kind of the benchmarks they're using now. So again, these are the minimums and they're often More depending on the building design But I think it's important to to be mindful that I don't I don't see this as sort of segregating and I certainly don't see this as a quality issue I mean finishes and all that good stuff will Will be the same. So I think it's really To just to get a mix of units and I again I understand we sort of leapfrogged, but it's not like nobody vetted this I mean the planning commission with two ordinance committee members reviewed it and So it's not like nobody spent any time on this. So I do think that the um The minimums that you've offered are just that and as you said if we enact them and then you get a situation where you can't um Change it. You're stuck. I heineberg housing we got rejected from HUD because by a 22 square foot difference um and had to start all over again with a major HUD grant because We didn't fit into their bucket and So I just cautioned you just have to pay attention to those and I'm not afraid of the minimums Really, I think Developers will develop them because they want to rent them and they if they're too small they won't be able to rent them I would just point out the um the sad reality of the cost of construction today $480 per foot is a fairly typical number for affordable housing Okay, so for affordable housing at $480 a foot to construct The smaller the units can be the more affordable CHT can deliver the more units they can deliver the more we can actually You know bring units online. I would also note and councillor carpenter references, but the ordinance is very clear that Other standards apply to ensure that the quality of the units the finishes the energy efficiency has to be at least as good as If not better than the other units smaller units actually are more efficient, but that's another issue So as far as quality goes you're not going to see a lesser quality of units as a result of this if I could just make One more comment and I the market has been all over the place. We've Gone from really small units and back in my old days To really big units and we're now back to small units. I mean the marketplace in new york city is you know Going to micro units. So I I don't think we want to be too afraid of it if we're looking at efficiency in shelter I wouldn't I would not be afraid of that Thank you councillor carpenter. We will go back to High tower and then to councillor shannon great and just to Try to convince some of the folks on my left side Who are I think we're a little bit less convinced by the free market and the I do I think I'm still very supportive of this and I think that um, if folks are worried like the the incentive for A regular developer to make the units very small as they can increase the prices As we see with some of the very small units in burlington a lot um and still You know and make it work like this putting in a kitchen in a bathroom I think that's not as true with the affordable units because the rent is capped So there's actually a disincentive to some extent to like have Some of the small units where you have to supply a kitchen in a bathroom, which is the most expensive part of the unit Um, which is the reason I was more worried about the four bedroom. So I I think we should feel comfortable with these smaller Units they're like we just said pretty high above the minimum housing standards Of what we see in burlington or I think what we would see in new york And I think that they're livable I would live in I think square footage units with the 350 and So I think those are more livable spaces and I think I don't think the Developer will necessarily be incentivized to just make a bunch of tiny Units That's all Thank you. Councilor hightower. We'll go to councilor shannon Thank you president paul I'll try to be brief, but I think that Not everybody deals in the square footage of living space every day And so it may be hard to kind of envision, you know, what is this how how big or how small are they? um I will say that I I lived in a two-bedroom 725 square foot Apartment in the old north end and this space was fabulous. Um, I I would love to go back to that that apartment Your average your typical new north end has You know many many many Three bedroom ranches They are mostly 925 square feet a few of them are less than 900 square feet That seems pretty tight to me when they get less than 900 square feet people love those, um new north end ranches for For 925 square feet in in the three bedroom I have always been concerned actually that We're trying to create affordable housing and we've really We've always had the square footage has been far too large to Really probably produce as much affordable housing as we should be producing and there is a drive towards micro units I will also say that that square footage is only one piece of how livable a place is Um, there are we've seen many houses being cut up into apartments That have a lot of unusable space and they could be larger and far less functional When you have newly designed units, they have the ability to make that space really nice Um efficient and functional and I think that these numbers look ample to me and I think even Uh, Cambrian rise has um, I think they have market rate much smaller units that are so popular Um, I think this is great and very much the direction that we should be going in. Thank you Thanks very much councillor shannon. I believe councillor freeman you had something you wanted to offer and then if we can Then if we can go to a vote, please. Thank you president ball I just wanted to clarify. I didn't mean quality in terms of construction. I hope that was I totally trust that That is That not an issue. Um, it was more around the And I hear you on the square footage and um, I was like, how how big is my apartment actually? Um, so and I I'm happy to sort of I think think more on that but I Yeah, my off the cuff was the concern that we were sort of um Funneling poor or poorer people into micro units, which doesn't really sound super great to me It sounds a little dystopian Where you have People who can just afford more square footage and I I think there are plenty of reasons why You know ecological reasons or resource reasons to look at the square footage that we all live in I think I just feel a little weird when it's um, or very weird when it's just um So stratified stratified by class and and is a real accessibility issue. Um So yeah, that was sort of my my thought around that but Um I guess the the conversation will continue around the the size of the event. So thank you Thanks counselor uh freeman So the motion in front of us is to consider this a first read Wave the readings suspend our rules and set for a public hearing Uh, if there are no others in the queue Uh, and no others that wish to speak, uh, we'll go to a vote Uh, let's just try it by Voice all those in favor of the motion. Please say aye Aye Any opposed, please say no The motion passes unanimously, uh, thank you director tuttle for your work, uh Planner dillard as well as uh, uh, cito director pine That will bring us we have two more items left on our deliberative agenda the The first is item 7.04 preliminary short-term rental report from the department of permitting and inspections For this item. We have the director of permitting and inspections bill ward director ward, um as well patty weeman Division manager of the housing of housing and code enforcement. Thank you both for being here and We'll look forward to your report or remarks on your report in the first for the first 10 or so minutes of this presentation Then we'll go to questions from the council I can definitely keep it to 10 minutes or less famous last words even if patty disagrees Okay, uh, so with me tonight at first I for those hundreds or thousands people watching at home I'm bill ward and I'm the director of permitting inspections and with me tonight is the Housing division manager patty wayman patty has been doing Most of the work with the registration contact and dealing with properties both in compliance and out of compliance So I wanted to next say thank you to the council members and to the mayor for your patience in this preliminary report I've been putting it off not because we weren't ready as much as we didn't think the information was as valuable until We at least got to a 50 percent threshold of Properties we thought we could get registered and have them in there We're there and this is preliminary for that reason. We probably will be about three or four more months before it's final The initial low numbers as you saw in the report were a bit unexpected. I I predicted probably 90 compliance in the initial period, but We really didn't know and we didn't have the specific addresses where properties were short-term renting so we relied on the public Knowledge of all of the meetings most of you are at them in that led up to the passage of the ordinance But clearly that wasn't enough public information for everyone who has a short-term rental to register on their own So when those initial numbers were low, we had to reach out with our host compliance partner to Use their data to help us send out direct messages to property owners So I want to mention who host compliance is a number of people that have asked us They're a private Organization that we have contracted with to help us pick from all the different websites They they claim there's 74 or more different websites where people can rent short-term rental And I'm no reason to doubt that but they're the group that's helping us eliminate all of the duplicates if someone is registered on Airbnb and someone else is on vacation rental by owner or any of the other sites host compliance is helping us take the those 800 and some odd numbers of individual listings and bring them into a workable number to eliminate those duplicates duplicates to get us down to What they say at the date of this report was the 269 short-term rentals That was the burlington number as I mentioned in my report. There's a few Sort of non sequiturs there because even though they say they're burlington Some of them are not because they geographically are just across the wenewski bridge. Let's say but they show up within that platform The others are on the other side of Shelburne road They show up in a geographic area that looks like burlington to someone who's not from vermont It is might as well be but they're not paying taxes here. They're not burlington residents We eliminate those we get that 269 that they have reported down to an active number of 237 so We're we used that initial number, which we thought was low along with the data on The 70% of the properties that host compliance has said they could 100 identify to do some direct outreach and again when I say we it was mostly patty sending letters or emails We did direct outreach and we got an over About a hundred more properties registered but a total of 217 units Now that number that's in my report is 159 properties Those are registered in our opengov database, but there's a bigger number, which is 217 because again Some properties have more than one rental unit in them so We've done our best in our report to answer questions that council had provided in In preparation for this so I didn't go into too many other details But before I close and take those questions For clarification I wanted to say that our next steps will be continuing the Rental registration process for long-term rentals. So long-term rentals the reason that's important We are pretty confident that a number of folks who had rented registered last year in february and march Of 2022 as a long-term rental Even then They didn't have a method for registering with us as a short-term rental So we think they registered as a long-term rental but intended to be short term This year. There's a specific option to register as a short term. We've already seen some of those folks Change their registration status in the 2023 data So we'll be reviewing that in addition for those registrations Confirming that any property that was previously a long-term rental if it's now a short-term rental We'll be doing some research to be able to report back in our final report To give you a better understanding of any of the number of properties that were long-term And now now our short term that's going to take some work on looking at previous years rental registrations to go back A significant portion some of them we know offhand They they are new units and they weren't previously registered as short-term rentals So we we'll be able to give a preliminary report on that But I didn't include that in it because it wasn't one of the specific questions The main deadline is coming up for folks to um who were non-compliant but could still keep Renting until the end of may 2023 if they were a non-compliant host, but Had had bookings on the book when the ordinance was passed That's going to be ending here in a couple of months And we think at the end of that period when that ends we'll be able to look at the host compliance data to see that The units are no longer actually being rented because as councillor Bergman Pointed out before we're a trust but verify organization ourselves We trust that they'll be doing that particularly when they tell us But we'll be doing the work to verify that that actually happens So i'm happy to take questions great Thanks director ward uh patty was there anything you wanted to add it as well Okay, all right, so we will go to the council for questions comments on this extensive report Councilor hightower Thank you both patty for doing all the work of enforcement and both of you for the report and the update um, i'm just trying to understand do we Do we think that the number of Um Short-term rentals that we have is closer to the i'm losing it now But 800 something that they found or closer to the 200 something that are registered Closer to the 200 that are registered again the the 800 Accounts for some properties that might be registered in three on three different websites So the same address being registered on three different websites Um It shows up as only one register in ours And i think for the most part post compliance has done a great job at Limiting those but i have found at least one that they've listed Two two listings with their numbers for the same property Okay, and then just another question which is we haven't Penalized anyone for not knowing about the Registrations or being so called out of compliance, right? No, our messages have been as we've identified the address to send it to the property owner To explain that we need them to hear here's what the ordinance requirement is Similar to what we do with the zoning violation We send a polite warning letter to let them know what the requirement is And i believe our we've got compliance once we send those notices We heard from some folks that they didn't register frankly because they thought They were waiting to get something from us and others said Oh, well, we had previously gotten a an Airbnb permit from zoning a couple of years ago We thought we could still short term rent and not register We politely corrected them and have gotten folks into compliance that way Awesome. Thank you both for this. Oh, no, I was just going to say it's a lot of phone conversations You know, what's going on in your specific property? We're just mauling people that are just going to push us right to make me do it Thank you both Thanks, councilor high chair. We'll go to council bergman We'll go to council bergman. Okay. Uh, thanks for for doing this So I I The lesson that I've learned is you know, one lesson is that the um, the expectation You shouldn't have that expectation anymore And that enforcement is is something that needs to be done and as somebody who came into the job in 1998 With about a 36 percent rental registration compliance fee paid I I know that we had to engage in a vigorous Um program to get it to the point where you're you've got it now how much Tax money have we lost if any? by not having registered a significant number of properties in the first part of the program and patty you're looking at me With skeptical eyes, but uh, there was Um from In september you got a big jump in november of registrations. So between the The the onset and november Um People were renting out short-term rentals And they're supposed to be paying taxes on that that nine percent. Did we collect that? It's my understanding that they're not connected you can We can still collect the taxes because those are being remitted by like air b&b as an example directly. So Uh, that doesn't mean that the taxes were not collected the person It could have been a person as I had suggested a few minutes ago who they'd been registered and had a Zoning permit for a short-term rental. It wasn't their misunderstanding But if they're on the platform air b&b is submitting their taxes regardless of their registration status and That's for air b&b. There are other platforms and is everybody doing that not everyone is doing that I think some of the bigger ones. We're we're trying to work with vrbo as an example to Do that proactively, but they are leaving it to the property owners to do it themselves So what are we doing to make sure that we're collecting the taxes from those folks? We're confirming which ones are I'd say most of the properties are air b&b But those will be the ones that we would focus on for enforcement and I deferred to the city attorney's office on how we would go back to retroactively look at the taxes But I do think there's enough data in host compliance data to show that when they were active So some of the examples that we learned In producing this report was that host compliance can tell us when A rental was last active So if a property stopped Once the ordinance was in effect Then we are able to eliminate those because we know they were beyond 180 days, let's say as an example, but they can tell us that a property's last Rental was more than a year ago So we have to then go back to the different websites that they advertise on but I would say Just anecdotally, I didn't run the specific number, but 90% are listed through air b&b I think that's Accounting for most of the taxes, but we can include that information in our final report as far as work with vrbo and other platforms I I would like us to have a full info, you know the full information about the taxes that Have been To date left on the table and my recollection is there is a three-year statute of limitations And as the former tax collector for the city of burlington It is not fun, but it is collectible and should be collected Um It seems like let me just thank you for for the numbers. There's a lot of units There are a lot of bedrooms here that are have been that are off The housing market. We just talked to to uvm. They said don't blame us for everything And here's an example of a real Impappable impact on the housing crisis It continues to to concern me as I had mentioned Previously And it is not for code enforcement, but it would be helpful to understand from our housing trust fund people What uses we are making of the 100 and 30 thousand dollars $134,000 in new revenues that have been deposited into the housing trust fund to be able to You know we we did that so that we could replace units and there are according to There are 445 bedrooms People are paying Like $1200 a bedroom. That's a lot of as a lot of money That's a lot of money that people are are paying that market is actually not very competitive. It's a monopolistic market, it's People are paying outrageous amounts So it would be good to know that we're going to be using this money as As well as we can as quickly as we can to deal with a problem That we are in my mind still helping to create Thank you Thanks, councillor bergman. We'll go to councillor McGee and then councillor chang Thank you president paul Thank you both for Presenting at a late hour. I know it's not the latest hour that we're going to have a presentation or have had a presentation But I do appreciate you being here My Questions are In regard to The numbers on the bottom of page three of the memo You have here and I I don't know if I'm Misunderstanding the definitions of units and bedrooms and But my questions here are so we've got 213 Of the str listings currently that are whole units 84 of 84 of the units that we have are in multiple Dwelling unit buildings where that property is the host primary residence. Is that correct? Okay And we have 11 strs that are registered with the city in a multi unit building where there is also Another unit that meets the affordability criteria. So that Seems to mean that we've got 118 Units and I don't know if that accounts for single bedrooms in a residence or If that is whole units That Are either in a single family home or in a multi unit building where they're The affordability requirement is not met So i'm trying to figure out what the mix of that And it looks like we've got three seasonal homes and three tenant hosts with so I guess six tenant hosts in total So I guess I would bring it down to 109 units that are either single family homes or In a multi unit building and not meeting the affordability criteria correct so I guess my question is what the mix is of those 118 or 109 units that aren't accounted for here How many of those are single family homes versus Um In a multi unit building without meeting the affordability criteria. I apologize if this question is confusing well it is but I think we Those were not Designed by our office. So those I don't know that you can put all of those in the same context they weren't designed to be like A sum when you add them all up together. I think the first question refers to the single units And the second question is talking about duplex or more So and then the other ones are I think somewhat separate. You can't really it's not a we're not subtracting to get all of those If that helps clarify Sure, I guess i'm just i'm struggling to understand the definition of unit here. Does that include It can be a partial bedroom Okay, I guess I can follow up offline to get some more information here, but thank you Thank you very much. Councilor McGee. We'll go to councilor jang Thank you president paul and i'll be short but now we'll start by saying thank you so much Because you just solve a cold case in just six months. I think this is this is amazing Thank you And I think you know the amount of time from july uh august to now The amount of work that you have done to reach out to people And to make it happen is just I understand it's not easy, right And again, you still stay very humble And you're not even making any requests about staffing because you had all the work to do and this is an addition and you've done it I can't wait to see the final product in June of 2023 in six months from now But I also want to suggest to please next time maybe bring presentation as well some slides So I think it would be it would be amazing because the memo kind of a little bit complicated for me A lot of numbers and in some time I I got lost I also want to understand the the revenue that the city will be getting For example, if you are If you have 300 You have 300 units STR What does it mean in terms of ruining for the city? And we're talking about projections also about 800 if we get to 1000 how much so that we start to think about Whether or not you need a new staff to just take care of this Thank you The mic the microphone So there's two forms of revenue that are coming in when people register with us one is the registration fee and that's by Ordinance or city charter? That stays with our Division department and then the taxes that are coming in and those are paid from In many cases from the host directly to the treasurer Or through the plat the platform pays that so those are the two We haven't I don't know that we have a total for what's been paid right now for registration fees because we are also in the throes of our Renewal campaign for all Rentals short term long term And I think bill provided. I'm pretty sure he provided the tax numbers that we had to date Just as a rough estimate. It's roughly 21 thousand dollars for registration for The existing short term rentals that we have so far. I don't think it's realistic. We're not going to get to 800 there were Just for a point of reference when we started when the ordinance passed Over the summer that number listed on host compliance was 286 That number today is 270. I looked at it was 269 when I prepared for the report If anything that number seems to be dropping And thank you so much and great work. Thank you Thank you very much councillor jang. Uh, are there any other counselors? seeing Seeing none. I would entertain a motion to waive the reading Accept the report and place it on file Thank you councillor bergman seconded by councillor jang All those in favor of the motion, please say aye. Aye. Aye. Any opposed, please say no That motion passes unanimously with our Thanks to both of you We'll look forward to further updates as we move forward This was just the first go around. Thank you With that, uh, we've reached the golden hour of just after 10 30 so I would entertain a motion to suspend our rules and If you want to put some Some guard reels on that by all means do councillor councillor hightower Unless I see strong descent I will just move to Suspend the rules and Complete our deliberative agenda second I didn't even have to ask for one. So we have a first from we have a Motion by councillor hightower seconded by councillor barlow All those in favor of the motion to suspend our rules to complete our deliberative agenda, please say aye Aye. Any opposed, please say no So we will go on to item 7.05, which is a communication from Our assistant city attorney kyle claus on proposition zero Don't know if you would like thank you so much for being here and thank you for so much for waiting until 10 30 To for us to get to this agenda item I don't know if you would want to offer some overall comments on the communication Or if you wanted us to go to the council for questions or how you wanted to do this First of all, thank you all for having me. I think the last time I addressed this body was from my car Skype or so Pleasure to be with you despite the the late hour I think my memo speaks for itself So i'm happy to entertain any questions and Go from there Okay, so If there are counselors who have any questions on the memo Now would be the time councilor barlow Thank you president paul And thank you for the memo There's a point in the memo where you talk about in section three the interplay with the mayoral veto Sure, and and could you explain to us how should this pass we would We would reconcile the sort of discontinuity with the mayoral veto So I think that was an overarching issue that we flagged with the charter change the language is that overall it struggles to Assimilate with the existing procedures and the ways that this body in the city conducts its business So we went through the language of the charter change Uh question and tried to flag areas and see where they fit in with The procedure by which we enact ordinances. So specifically with the veto There's a bit of a gray area with whether or not the Question would be submitted to the voters upon the initial veto Even if this if the council did adopt the ordinance, but the mayor nevertheless vetoes it Would that trigger the requirement to submit it to the voters or would it be the the subsequent? Failure to get a two-thirds override vote would that trigger the submission to the voters? I think reasonable minds can disagree And I think that is a great area that Would this path would need to be ironed out in the legislature and their review of it So so in your opinion and you don't have to answer this if you don't want to but would you say that this Proposition isn't fully thought out because it has these considerations that are anticipated or or Explained just the assistant city attorney. So I can Either way, I can only tell you what it says Okay, thank you No further questions. Great. Thanks councillor Barlow. Were there any other councillors who had questions councillor shannon? Thank you president paul I Wondered the the language about In number two And I've seen this language in other similar ordinances, but it strikes me as somewhat problematic that the The attorney is to review review it for constitutionality and like basically at legality, but But is not allowed to meaningfully change The language so what does the attorney's office Do if it's not And also, what's the standard of legal because I know that for example with Question seven that's on the ballot now The city attorney had a lot of concerns about the bias of the board And whether or not the decisions of that board would hold up in court because of that bias So If there is that kind of concern that's kind of different Than it not being legal And so what is the standard and What is possible? um Because sometimes the intention may be in conflict with the law What do you do in that case because you can't change the meaning So I'm I'm going to try my best to stray away from Hypotheticals and not get out over my skis, but I will point to what is in the charter change language and The statute that I mentioned in that section two and the interplay between those because we did receive a specific request for clarification there Uh, I believe you're referring to the sub part the under petitions And I'll just read that now no no alteration of substance The city attorney is authorized subject to the approval of the council to correct such proposal to enact ordinances So as to avoid repetitions Illegalities and unconstitutional provisions and to ensure accuracy in its text and references and clearness and precision In its phraseology But he or she shall not materially change its meaning and effect Now that the statute that I mentioned in section two 17 vsa section 26 45 a five that specifically prohibits the legislative body from Amending a charter change the language of a charter change and proposition zero concerns solely Binding initiatives to enact ordinances Referended to repeal ordinances or the non-binding question which really isn't dealt with in much detail I don't think that addresses my my concern isn't the difference between ordinances and charters But simply what are the tools that the city attorney has? When something is let let's say legally problematic, but Not not meeting the standard of constitution, you know, it's not unconstitutional It's not illegal But there are legal problems with it What are the tools could this could the city attorney then Write a document saying that these are the legal problems with it, but I cannot Without changing the meaning I can't I can't correct this So I just wonder what the standard is and you know, I am aware of the language I think I'm having difficulty understanding a situation and where that would be the case If we were to if the city attorney's office and I have to defer the experience of my boss here but I The city's attorney's office would review the potential ordinance And see if it would conflict with any existing ordinances Or any provisions of the the state or federal constitution, but I I'm not sure What situation you would be describing? Well, I think we have many situations in the city where we have where we have ordinances that Are legally problem problematic to enforce an example would be What's currently on the ballot in terms of You know the police oversight, so that's that's one example and we can debate, you know Whether or not that's an issue or it's not an issue, but there has been attorney concern about that So where you have that kind of concern when you're reviewing something What is the place for it if you if changing the language um to Remedy that would change the meeting you can't do that So what would the city attorney's office do if there is Something that would be legally problematic for the city attorney's office to defend um where the ordinance To become law and then it is the job of the city attorney's office to defend that law I Would have to defer to acting city attorney's servant just given my relative greenness here I think in here the the language of the proposal um We would be in a difficult position of being able to modify the language substantially I mean, I think we could raise our concerns, but not Um, I you know, I think it's it would be difficult for us to uh change it if it was Not Clearly illegal So it you something that is not necessarily legally defensible Could go on the ballot Which is different than something that is not legal or illegal or not constitutional I would also point uh councillor shannon to the in that language The city attorney would conduct its review upon the authorization of the council So I think the first I think the so-called canary in the coal mine would be this body to flag if they feel that a provision isn't um Is problematic, uh, then it would be referred to our office I'm not following you there because it's not up to this council to do a legal review of The of the language before it goes on the ballot. We have no ability to Do any I mean that's if if enacted The language of proposition zero provides that the city attorney is authorized subject to the approval of the council To make those authorizations, so we would still require city council authorization to go forward Are we after it is approved by the voters? Are we allowed to change the language in a way that might that would change the meeting? I did not think that we were Allowed to do that. Can you repeat that, please? Well My understanding is you're now talking about after it goes on the ballot and it gets approved and then the the voters have said This city council shall enact such an ordinance so it comes to the city council and I think there's also a question of if the if the council has to take action like What if we don't we you know, we have a Seven to five vote and we don't that's one question But assuming we do what we were told to do by the voters And we pass it. You're saying the onus is on us to identify legal problems. That doesn't make sense to me With all due respect councillor shan, I think we're mixing hypotheticals here. So I think it we're getting a bit A field with the alterations of the substance I think the the item that I was addressing in section two Was the ability to make material changes to this ordinance Once it is proposed and that's after it would be after I believe it would be after the petition is filed with the city but before it goes On the bits before it's submitted to the voters So as you said the city council could consider the ordinance And adopt it and it wouldn't go any further Is that Getting any closer to answering your question No, my question is what if There is something that's not legally defensible What is the action that the city attorney can take and I I think I understand the city attorney to say You'd be in a difficult position And you Couldn't you could only you could maybe make a statement But maybe you can't really make a statement because that works Against the interest of the city So I just I think that there has been some confusion about even with what we already have on the ballot About what kind of legal review it gets um It doesn't seem to get the kind of legal review that we get When we are um engaging in the legislative process the bar is held in a different place And when there's a problem if we're in the legislative process You alert us to whatever problems that that you see and we have that That debate but here I don't see how Those kind of things can be addressed And I just wanted to know if I'm wrong about that just tell me I mean I think that um I would agree to the extent that it does not seem to contemplate the process That the standard ordinance goes through and during that process It is vetted and it goes to the ordinance committee and we're looking at it closely during that time frame This has a very tight time frame and doesn't Seem to permit that sort of review Okay. Thank you. Welcome Thanks very much councillor shannon. We'll go to councillor jang Um first I wanted to say thank you Because of the amount of research that you have done and your team right attorney I think you have done very very well. And also I love the comparison Your your findings you did not only base it to just a municipality But also at the state level And I also really appreciate the way you carry yourself here tonight Not getting into the weeds or into politics I think it speaks volume to your professional professionalism. I like that. Thank you um my question now is about amendments It seems that winewski can bring amendments if there is a proposition. Is that is that correct? amendments to um If there is a proposal for example proposition zero brings like a question that they want to bring to the And the city council we have the power to make some amendments to it Based on the legal council It's not part of um It's unclear under I mean during the um During the city councillors the city councils um Discussions of it, uh, there could amendments could arise but that's another example of The language of proposition zero failing to account for those nuances of the governing process. Okay. All right, wonderful And again, thank you so much. Um for the work well done Thanks very much councillor jang uh councillor carpenter Um, thanks. I want to clarify a couple things. Um, I think you stated that this particular pro Proposal does not exempt taxation Raising revenue fees or expenses. I mean that could be a valid subject for a binding initiative Sure, so in other municipalities, I think I believe it was minewski. Um, there is language that exempts certain areas from, um valid questions Okay, uh, for example, like the salaries of some city workers that wouldn't be touched Um, but this proposal does not exempt any of that. There is no such language in right we can Raise salaries or lower them as much as we want But that's not exempted in this role The other Concern I have is around ordinance. We have conflicting ordinances and and how that gets resolved particularly as it might relate to say zoning ordinances which are pretty complicated and interconnected if we Zone one thing one way and it conflicts with zoning over here. How does that get dealt with Well, that is another area another gray area And as we demonstrate in the memo, um, it's not clear whether or not proposition zero Reaches zoning ordinances. There's currently some provisions of the cdo that permit For amendments to the zoning ordinance to be made Um By petition with five percent of the city's voters um, but it proceeds along a different path than an ordinance that, um arising from Proposition zero would take and once again, it's that Seeming incompatibility That gave our office pause and I think would be the subject of the legislature's review. Thank you Thanks very much councilor carpenter Uh councilor freeman, did you want to? Yes, just briefly. Thank you Um, I'll try Um, I just to your point councilor carpenter. I think it seems unlikely that there would be competing ordinances so to speak because Probably like Excluding any in all common sense It seems very unlikely that voters would bring forward something that didn't include Like a change to the current Like it doesn't make sense to bring to competing things forward. It would be it would probably strike some of an existing I just have to imagine since it's what is it's fine. It's still five percent Voter like why would five percent people try to put something on a ballot that's going to compete like that just doesn't seem It doesn't it's it's a hypothetical that doesn't seem particularly likely, but maybe other people feel like there's that is likely um I think To the question that you brought forward Councilor barlow about whether it makes it well thought out or not it's just It was frustrating because it's it's um That's so political and it's a it's a judgment It it it's just it was it was a frustrating question in my opinion and To ask of a city Official it's just it's a political question really and I think that for me reading this I understand that there are some maybe Gray areas or questions, but I think that there's still the underlying question which is do we want the voters to have this power And I think the people who are supporting it do um, and I think to your questions councillor shannon around legality So much of that again is is really a political question and I so Councillor freeman Just going to remind you that our council rules say that we're not we're not here to try to impugn the motives of others I'm not impugning anyone so let's let's try to just keep it to the what the issue is I know you can do that. Thanks I don't think I'm impugning anyone's motives, but okay um, and I I just I think I'm responding to the conversation at hand, which is about the and Anyway, I know that it's late and that's more what's relevant, but everyone's had a chance to talk talk I've spoken very little this meeting so um About the legality question that it's a matter of um That it's a matter of politics and um, and I actually just lost my train of thought so Yeah, it I'll finish there. Thank you. Thanks councillor freeman. Uh I believe we wanted uh, I believe councillor shannon wanted to go and then also councillor barlow councillor shannon, please go ahead Um, I it's it's not my I didn't take it as uh I appreciate the defense. I didn't take it as Imputing my intentions, but it's an important point as to whether my question is political or if it's legal my intention is Um, not about the politics It's really just about how you deal with legality But I'm going to leave you alone on that topic. Um, my question is um Is this uh, is is this what every other town in vermont has on the books? Is this already authority that every other town in vermont has? Uh, I I can't say that my inquiry, um I was not specifically asked that question and I look solely at the authorities on the books in burlington And in the state of vermont with respect to burlington Um, so I I know a speaker earlier tonight had mentioned that But that was not within the scope of my research Okay, thank you. Happy to look further And reach out to you. Okay. I I'd appreciate that. Thank you Can I Yes, um Can we go to councillor barlow first and then we'll come back to you? Yes. Okay councillor barlow Thank you president paul. Um, I just I just want to respond Briefly. I think my question wasn't meant to be a political one. It was meant to point out as It's it's actually supportive of what councillor carpenter was asking We have a proposition before us. It was put on the ballot by By a citizen petition that Is in conflict with existing our existing form of government. It doesn't anticipate Um, as as the memo states the role of the mayor olvito, it doesn't necessarily fully appreciate the role Of the planning commission in this so I just I'm just I was trying to point out that there are um There are problematic aspects of this ballot question Um, and it wasn't meant to be a political statement. Thank you. Thanks councillor barlow We will come back to uh, councillor freeman and then councillor bergman Thank you. I remembered what I was going to say. I think I think that um, what I heard What I heard you say is that um, is that you were concerned about that the um, and or what I thought I maybe heard you say is that the What we do at the city is not Meeting maybe the muster or the rigor of what is happening at the state level in terms of really understanding the legality of Okay, maybe I misunderstood then and that's totally fine. So and I think that Yeah, I that's not a concern that I have is that we're not okay. So I miss then I misunderstood it I didn't mean that you I meant that those are political questions In like big p political it's it's a matter of opinion rather than like a a matter of fact is what I meant They're they're fine questions to ask. I just think that um, it's important to point out that they are of a Of a political like big p political nature. It's a it's a politicized Um aspect. I I mean There I think you can argue that the legality is there's a politicized. It's a political It's not it's something that's political Okay, well, okay, we're getting too far into that debate then And clearly I'm have the only one with a lot of energy to discuss this at this late hour So I will I will wrap it up. Um, I I think it's a fine summary and thank you. Um, but it To me it doesn't raise to the level of concern around the the underlying um question, but thank you Thank you, councillor Freeman. There are two More energetic people to go be to go after you that is councillor bergman and we maybe we'll wrap this up with The mayor after that councillor bergman. Thank you. I don't really have much energy here, but you know the purpose of doing Legislation is to pass laws that are coherent, but that doesn't always happen Doesn't happen when legislative body is like ours does it doesn't happen when the legislature does it There are rules of statutory construction Rules of statutory construction tell you how to deal with conflicts within laws so for example when we talk about um the city council in The petitioned proposal and then we go to the section 46 Well, we actually need to go to section 36 which defines the um city council as For purposes of the governance of the city of berlington the city council and the mayor It's it's an odd construction But it it makes sense which is that we together mayor and council For purposes of governance is the city council. So I can read the language When it comes to this conflict in harmony if I put other provisions together if there is A conflict with a zoning amendment because there are many pieces to it Well, first of all, there could be an illegality that would occur because we'd be breaking some sort of rules Secondly, there We would look for statutory construction to try to harmonize those to eliminate Unreasonable and irrational interpretations because that's what the law guides us to do right and Low and behold If that doesn't work We would then proceed to do what we do now Which is fix it And I don't know how many times we have had people from the zoning office come to tell us that we need a technical fix Because there is a problem with the way that we did stuff. So That stuff happens all the time. It's just part of the imperfection That we as legislators have Inherent in being just people Okay, so, um I don't know If I heard A a single Problem with this that wasn't a political problem one can disagree That's fair Um, but the question of how this can work Clearly it can work and where there is ambiguity, right? I know that we want the legislature to do What we say they should do But I did not hear the screaming that came when the legislature said To the city of burlington. We are going to change the rank choice voting Method that you put in and we're going to let you do this by ordinance And we're not a lot of jumping up and down on this in this body or elsewhere Sometimes that happens And indeed then we follow up We in the charter change committee over my vote and objection Decided that the new proposal for rank choice voting was not going to have the method in it And the majority of the committee Said that that was just a better way to do it and That follow and one of the reasons was because the legislature did that the last time So why would we go backwards on that? These things work themselves out I'm just we're talking about a Lawyer's opinion here trying to help guide us and I totally appreciate it. Welcome to the city of burlington I will not get into a political debate and I hope that we don't Devolve into a political debate About this ballot item. We got many opportunities To do that And I would hope that at this late hour that I wouldn't have to be prompted to go back and be more energetic because we got engaged in a At a political debate about this. Thank you. Thanks councillor bergman Mayor weinberger Thank you president paul. Um, I want to thank uh, Kyle as well for uh helping us try to Weed through this challenging topic I appreciate council bergman's point that you know, let's not have a 11 o'clock in the night extensive debate About the substance of this ordinance I um I will just say having grappled with our charter for 11 years the charter is actually quite thoughtful currently about where it uh It does give voters a great deal of direct democracy within Within our ordinance, uh within our current system. In fact This uh, this very ordinance this very charter change itself is one of the many examples of that and How the charter tries to calibrate that? um Also in financial matters the voters are given the ultimate authority Uh, as we found out with city place a few years ago The voters even have the authority to rescind um ordinances Passed by the planning commission of this council. Um, I do think this debate shows that This uh, charter change would substantially disrupt that balance that is there Um, I don't share councillor bergman's Full confidence that we can just count on the legislature to sort that out. So I definitely find myself As with prop is as with uh about question number seven um, quite concerned that in this up or down vote um that The kind of nuance and the kind of detail Uh conversation that we have here, uh will be It Will be a real challenge to piece back together our charter um in the wake of of these passing and and uh, I'll be voting against them and hope the that uh The voters will consider that as well Thank you mayor Weinberger Not seeing anyone else in the queue I'll entertain a motion to waive the reading except the report and place it on file Thank thank you councillor jang and seconded by councillor barlow All those in favor of the motion, please say aye. Hi Any opposed, please say no That motion passes unanimously In the words of one of the one of the other one of the my colleagues that sits at this table City assistant city attorney clause this should be the the the hardest Opportunity the the the most difficult opportunity Report that you have to give to to all of us. Um, and as I think councillor bergman said welcome to burlington Thank you. Um That brings us to the end of our agenda just before we adjourn Please keep in mind our next meeting is march 13th, which is the day after the week after town meeting day and I just wanted to remind the public To be sure to vote on honor before march 7th. You can do so By returning your ballot by mail, but please don't do it after march 1st If you want to return your ballot after march 1st, please do so either in person at city hall during business hours In one of the five drop boxes across the city Or in person on town meeting day with the polls open 7 am to 7 p.m And you can only return or vote in City hall up until the day before town meeting day. Did you want to? Oh, yes, that's correct. We do have a meeting. We do have the public information meeting on the ballot items on march 1st For those who are able to attend a quorum isn't required But certainly if you're able to be here, that would be great So with all of that, I'll ask for a motion to adjourn Motion made by councillor McGee seconded by Councillor Jang all those in favor of the motion to adjourn, please say aye. I I'll oppose say no. We are adjourned at 10 minutes after 11. Thank you so much