 Aloha, and welcome to Hawaii Together on the Think Tech Hawaii Broadcast Network. I'm Kili Akeena, president of the Grassroot Institute, and one of the things we love to do is have good friends come together, just like Confucius said, there's nothing better than old friends getting together and having a conversation, and that's what we're going to do today. Ken and Lee Skolin have been my friends for a very long time. We're friends not only in the profession that we are involved in, which is the advancing of freedom across the world, but our families have known each other as well, and I just can't tell you how wonderful these people are. Ken Skolin is an associate professor in economics at Hawaii Pacific University. Lee Skolin is a freelance educator going all over the world, spreading the message of freedom. We're going to talk today about something fascinating that they started about 10 years ago and just completed the most recent version of it, which is a roadshow to advance freedom through China and other countries. Please welcome to my program Ken and Lee Skolin. Ken, welcome to the program. Lee, welcome. Thank you for having me on the show. Well, so great to have both of you here today, and you're fresh off the plane coming back from a rigorous journey. Ken, where did you get off? Where did you go this time? Well, it was the month of July that we went. Lee organized, spent much of the year organizing a fantastic event all throughout China, about eight different cities that we went to talking about free market ideas. That's right. In fact, Lee, maybe you can tell us what cities these are. If we put up the map right now, we can show our viewers exactly where you went. So we started in Shenyang, northeast of China, and at the northeastern university. Then we went to Beijing, the capital of China. Then we went to Chengdu, the capital of Sichuan province, famous for the hot spicy food. And then we went to Dali and Lijiang, that's in Yunnan province. Then we went to Guilin, the beautiful city in China. Then we went to Yongzhou, and after that we ended in Shanghai. That was our tour. That's something. Another slide, number two, in fact, that shows a group of students at a university in China called Northeastern University, I think, in Shenyang. Tell us a little bit about what you're actually teaching them. Well, we're talking about free market ideas. We do it in a subtle way that often espouses ideas of Friedrich Hayek and Ludwig von Mises about free market ideas. It's an Austrian school of economics that isn't much heard of in many countries of the world. But it is something that we've been having some scholars together, quite a number of scholars who are promoting these ideas. And we'll have to be kind of careful in China because it's a little difficult to be open. But we, for Northeastern University, Li has had this now 10 years. This is the shirts that we're wearing for the 10th anniversary. We've actually been invited by the university and the political leadership, the Communist Party leadership there is welcoming us back because they appreciate markets and the value that it's brought to China because they have to be very careful about criticizing the government directly there. Well, you know, Li, you've seen a lot take place in China over the last several decades. Yes. And a lot of people are saying it's an open world now. They are open to Western ideas. There's on trepidorship and so forth. That's not the whole story, is it? What do you see taking place? The only Western ideas Chinese government is open to is Marx, Lenin, Stalin, and those four Westerners. And other than those four Westerners, none of the Western ideas are welcome. What is the level of social control now? Has that been changing in the last few years? Yes. We can say it's the worst in the past 40 years. That's something, that's quite a statement. And you know, it's a little bit surprising to some of us in the West. I go to conferences where there are people who have been authors and they've traveled the lecture circuit in China and they come back and say, China is so open. They roll out the red carpet for me because I'm a New York Times bestselling author and people don't realize how free they are. Yet, I think that maybe they're not getting the full picture of what's really taking place. What causes you, Lee, to say that the social control has been actually growing in the worst? For example, right now, none of the books published in the United States are allowed to be published in China. Well, that's something. That's, yeah, zero. That's a historic shift. Yes. And today, this announced no new US agricultural products are allowed to re-enter into China. That's a trade sector. Other things, for example, no Sunday school is allowed in China. Now, that's a real shift because China had been somewhat lenient toward the practice of religion as long as religions didn't become politically active. Are you saying that they're clapping down even more now? It's all changed. The new policy for Christianity is called cling to zero. That means cling all the non-registered churches to zero. And no children under 18 are allowed to go to church. And also, they're changing all the textbooks now. Well, that's something. Let's take a look at a couple of photos and we'll come back and talk a bit about that. 3.1 and 3.2 we have here. I think these are also in Xiangyang. You want to tell us what's going on here, Ken? Well, except for the woman on the far right there who wasn't part of our program, but there wasn't one of the scholars teaching there. These are the people who were from all over the world, Para Bieland. Dean Pong was from China, then Matt Dale. Dan Mitchell, I don't know if you know, you may have seen him on the news. He's with the Cato Institute, Baraon Mitra from India. Victor Clark from Florida. Kishore Jabalian from India. From Italy. Doug Bandalf also from the Cato Institute in Washington, DC. Chris Lingle from Guatemala. Ben Lee, myself. Patrick Mardini, the head of the Lebanese Institute for Market Studies in Lebanon. Well, it certainly appears on the surface at least as though there's the opportunity for free thought and expression of free ideas. Let's take a look at 3.2. But despite these happy faces, you're suggesting, Lee, that there's been a clapping down on freedom of thought throughout China. What would you say is the cause of that, Lee? Because Xi Jinping felt threatened by ideas other than his idea. And he's still threatened for his power and toll. Well, let's look at picture 4.4 now. And here you are in a classroom in Pyongyang. How do you account for the freedom you have to speak Chinese students about the ideas of free market and liberty, individual rights, limited accountable coverage? Well, we've been cautioned about being careful about what we say. The classroom is circled with cameras. We're under scrutiny most all the time. And there's probably people in the room here who are reporting what we're saying. So we're cautious not to be directly criticizing the Chinese government. But you can talk about free markets and free market ideas in general references and with reference to other countries, the United States or elsewhere. And the students are pretty excited about it. They ask lots of good questions, probing questions about markets. And then you also have to be careful about the use of the media. With the great firewall of China, you can't access YouTube or Facebook or Gmail. WeChat is mostly scrutinized for what you say. So you have to be extremely careful what you say and those things or else you get shut down. Lee, I know you know some of our friends in Beijing who formed a think tank many, many years ago. I've had the privilege of being able to work with them a bit and grow in friendship. It was very saddening, disheartening to hear that they've had to actually shut down as a result of this new tightening up on the freedom of speech. Do you think that there are scholars and individuals throughout China who are still trying to carry on the cause of freedom in a big way? Yes, they are. Actually, the think tank you mentioned is Uniru. That's my partner for the past nine years. Every time after Northeastern University, I will bring my scholars to Beijing and they will have two-day events in Beijing with the Uniru. This year is the only year. They couldn't officially work with us. But many of their members came to this, our event. And they were just told that their name, their name, it was registered now became illegal. Now, if anybody use this name for any purpose will be imprisoned. From my understanding, these folks were not very aggressive. They were not politically in the face of the government and so forth. For the most part, they did good economics work. They published research, they did studies and showed the economic condition of China. They were read by educators, by government, by business. It's just that some of them happen to have free market ideas. At least that individual liberty is something to be cherished and valued. So what is it that they actually did that was wrong? Nothing they did was wrong. All they did was good for the country and the people. But the government right now anything challenged the government monopoly in business, in academic, in any field is illegal. So that's all. And government is afraid of people that want to think out of the box and want to question their authority and want to think in the way different from the communist doctrines. All of those are now became illegal. So they don't care what's good for the country and the people. They only care how they can hold on to their power. Well, you know, Ken, as an economist, you're familiar with some of the luminaries. Hayek and Bonnises and Milton Friedman and others, like the pictures of these folks in China. I also sometimes see some references to Ken Skulin. You yourself or your work and your very famous book, The Adventures of Jonathan Gullible. But how do you account for this fascination that many scholars and free market thinkers and business people have in China with the free market or what we call even Austrian economics? I have to admit that this is also due to Lee's connections in China that my book was able to be published twice. And in Shanghai and in Beijing and sold out, it was very well received. And it passed the censors as it usually does. I was counting the bootleg copies on the street. Maybe so, yeah. And it passes the censors because it's written as a story and a lot of people, maybe the censors don't quite get the point about the message of freedom. So it gets passed them. But there's a lot of fascination with the ideas. And we rattle across a lot of people in China, businessmen, entrepreneurs, were actually pleased that President Trump was doing this push on Xi Jinping and the government of China because they said, you know, we can't push back against the government of China. So they were sort of applauding the U.S. government's doing it. Of course, from my perspective, I'd rather the government's just on both sides, stand back and let the population just do free markets. But they were interested in it because it's denied. It's just the whole story of human history. When you're denied freedom, people become more intrigued with it and they seek out ways to find it, even if underground. Well, we're going to take a quick break now and then come back and talk a little bit more about the script that you took and some of the issues that they found out in the conversation with the people of China. I guess today are Ken and Lee Skolin who have just some fascinating insights from the recent tour of China. And we'll be back in just a moment with them. I'm Lee Ikeena on the Think Tech Hawaii Broadcast Network. So go away. Aloha. I'm Keisha King, host of At the Crossroads, where we have conversations that are real and relevant. We have spoken with community leaders from right here locally in Hawaii and all around the world. Won't you join us on ThinkTechHawaii.com or on YouTube on the Think Tech Hawaii channel. Our conversations are real, relevant, and lots of fun. I'll see you at the Crossroads. Aloha. Aloha. I'm Mellie James, host of Let's Mana Up, Tuesdays every other Tuesday from 11 to 1130. This show is meant to dive into stories of local product entrepreneurs and how they're growing their companies from right here in Hawaii. I'm so thrilled to have our show kicked off. And so please join us on Tuesdays at 11 o'clock as we talk to local entrepreneurs and hear their stories. Welcome back to Hawaii Together on the Think Tech Hawaii Broadcast Network. My guests today are Ken Skolin and Lee Skolin. And we're going to jump right back into our fascinating conversation about what's been going on and what they've observed during their travels to China in their roadshow promoting free markets and economics. Ken, we've got another show of photo up here where we're going to put up. People are intensely focused on learning as if you and Lee come and they just eat out of your hands. They're so fascinated. Ideas are powerful and ideas matter. So what are your thoughts about how powerful the ideas of free market can be in changing China? What can people who want to bring about change do? Well, I often feature as my main point during these lectures about the economic freedom of the world index, which is produced by the Fraser Institute to show how economic freedom around the world in some 200 countries around the world are evaluated for measures of economic freedom. And in those cases they have much, much greater success, not only the amount of wealth that they produce, education, literacy, healthcare, environmental protections, all sorts of benefits come to countries that have this economic freedom. So you're talking when you say economic freedom, you're talking about having certain qualities like the protection of private property or limited government intervention in the economy and so forth. Precisely, there's five basic criteria. A limited role of government spending and taxation, a secure property and contract rights to a secure legal system, sound money, open trade and a minimal amount of regulatory control. And I know in the project you're talking about the economic freedom of the world and its companion project, Economic Freedom for North America. There's more than 30 years of time series data that shows where those qualities are in place to actually reduce poverty, to actually close the gap between the rich and the poor, you actually have human rights, you actually preserve freedom and this isn't just an ideology, it's hard core data. And so I just wanted to mention that for our viewers, that we're not talking here about a theory only, we're talking here about actual research that shows where you have the qualities of economic freedom, you have the quality of life grow tremendously and the quality of freedom. I'm going to go back to you now because you brought that up for a reason. Well, interestingly, in China there's a vast difference in the amount of economic freedom in the different provinces of China. It's a huge country and the provinces on the east coast that are free economic zones have some of the freest economies in the world and some of the other provinces in the west of China are the least free. And one thing that's made it possible for China to have such prosperity as they have is unparalleled in human history in the last half century was the movement of people and a mass migration from the western provinces and they were least free to the provinces along the coastline where so much more productivity resulted. So I consider a sixth condition openness to migration is being very, very important to economic prosperity. And you're not just talking about emigration and in-migration within national borders, you're talking about within the country themselves because China in many ways just didn't have free travel available to the masses. In the last 40 years more people moved within China and moved across international borders worldwide. And one of the things going on when they move, of course, is they're obviously voting with their feet. They're coming from places that are low in economic freedom and they're flocking to centers of economic freedom that are now just flourishing. One of which, of course, and I would ask you just for quick thoughts, we're not going to analyze this quite a bit, but everybody knows what's going on in Hong Kong right now in terms of the conflict between the protesters and the government at least. You know, it seems as though the Chinese government is so sensitive about what's taking place, they're bending over backward to portray the protesters as rabble rousers. Yes, they, I think, I believe they hire thugs who pretend to be protesters who do the vandalized thing, business and beat people up, and so they can use that to be excused so they can use military force to crack down the protesters. That's something, you know, the public relations power of the Chinese communist government is just tremendous. And as a result, you even have people in Hong Kong who are rising up in defense of the government and the police, thinking that protesters are the ones who are causing this problem. Yes, and one case I know of, one person posted three pictures of the demonstration in Hong Kong because he was there on social media, and his phone number was taken away because in China, you have to register to get a phone number with your ID and face recognition. So without a phone number, you can't do much of anything because everything now is with your phone number. So in order to get his phone number back, he has to tie his bank personal bank account to his phone number. And the promise, he's never going to violate any of the government social credit code. Otherwise, his personal bank account will be taken away. Well, that's something that's a real threat to individual liberty. Yes, just three pictures on social media. And if you like those pictures, you're another person who likes it. You're in trouble too. Ken, you were talking about economic freedom and the report, Economic Freedom of the World. It actually ranks Hong Kong as being the number one city-state for the practice of economic freedom, which explains why so many people have flocked to Hong Kong. And yet you see this conflict taking place between the old way of thinking in China and Hong Kong's new way of thinking. How does China reconcile these two dynamics that are at play? There's the old conservative thinking of power and centralization of control in Beijing. And yet there's the vitality in these special economic zones such as Hong Kong and Gen and parts of Shanghai and elsewhere. How do you account for these two different dynamics? Do you think they can exist together or will one of them win out? That's always a big, big question, you know, because tyrants can't tolerate challenges to their authority, and yet they love the blessings of market prosperity because it gives them a great deal of wealth. And the Chinese government is extraordinarily wealthy and powerful because of what the market has brought to them. And their economy has been on hyperdrive during the last five years as a result of these opportunities for economic growth. They're feeling it in jeopardy now too, because as Lee knows, these powerful figures are themselves in jeopardy. Their families want to get out with their wealth because they're worried about what can happen to them when it's taken away from them. And it can happen to anybody who challenges the government's authority or even appears to be. So it's a very precarious thing. Lee knows a lot of Chinese who are very eager to get away from China, get out of China and bring their money and wealth with them and their families. They are clean. This is something to take a look at in Hong Kong that so many Chinese have made their way to Hong Kong in the hopes of being able to have basic freedoms and economic opportunity. And now there's a clamping down taking place right there. So I think the world is watching very, very carefully. And let me just switch subjects for one second. One of the delights I have is whenever I get to go over to your home in case of these cooking. Love to cook. You cook everything. You cook Chinese. You cook pizza. We've had your pizza at some of these seminars since your house. I cook, I cook, I usually learn how to cook from the countries I visited. I'm going to put you on the spot here. I'm going to ask Ken, how does the food in Chengdu, we've got an image number five to put up, how does the food in Chengdu compare to Lee's cooking? Oh, well, come on. Lee is certainly the best cook on the planet. So that earned my meal tonight. Very good. So we're looking here at a group here in the city of Chengdu known for many things, including its very spicy, spicy flavors. One of my favorite foods. What's going on here? As you can tell, this is not the conference hall or meeting room. It's a restaurant. And on the wall is the paintings done by the owner of the restaurant. She's the one in black sitting next to me. The reason we have our events in restaurants is because we cannot have it in any official venues or openly publicize it. These are events sponsored by individuals, entrepreneurs. Some people pay for our air fare. Some people pay for our hotels. Some people provide the food and venue. That's the only way we had our road show besides the Northeastern University. We were invited by the university. But other than that, all the events were held in private places. We couldn't advertise it only by personal invitation only. We have a lot of people in our social circle who are interested in these kind of ideas. We've only got about a minute left. Here's a quick question for you. An ominous development. You referred to it briefly before the trade war. What do you think that's going to ultimately result in? At the Northeastern University, the first lecture mentioned the word trade war. Immediately, the school told me, please don't say this sensitive word in all of our lectures. Reptification of name. I fear that the harder this trade war brings the life in China and the United States, the worse it's going to be for countries all around. Frankly, I'm not a fan of this tit for tat trade battle at all. It only does harm to innocent people and only the politicians come out as winners in this sort of thing if they can ever come out as winners. So I hope that it ends very quickly and we get back to more free trade prosperity. But other than that, I'm worried because the more hardship there is in these economies, the more hardship the governments are going to bring down on the people in the country. It's like an ancient saying in China from the Su Maqian, let water and trade flow freely thereby the people prosper. Exactly. I might mention that when we came back to the United States, that's when Lee was grilled for an hour by the immigration people in here. Where have you been? I think that even this country is becoming increasingly nervous about people going back and forth in other countries. Lee, we're going to have to have both of you back soon. We've come to the end of our program. But thank you for all that you're doing across the world in China and here in Hawaii. Thank you for being on the program, Lee. Thank you for having us. Thank you, Kali. My two guests today, Ken and Lee Skullen, great freedom fighters and educators traveling the world spreading the good news of the free markets and the idea that individual liberties are inviolable. I'll be back next time on Think That Hawaii's Hawaii Together. Lee, Akeem, Allah.