 Hello everybody. This is the Jinkins Pipeline Authoring SIG meeting for February 28th, 2020. This is the Americas meeting. My name is Markey. Welcome everybody. I am going to drop a lazy link to the notes if you could just go in there and add who you are. So we just keep a record of attendance. I've also put that in the getter channel. I do like to start off every meeting with just a reminder that we do have a Jinkins code of conduct and it's just to say be nice and don't be a jerk. And with that, I am going to turn it over to Liam who always runs our meetings. I'm super thankful for that. Runs. Run. Just strong word. I don't know about that. Wait, where did he go? Run away. So awesome. Take it away. Alrighty. So let's see here. Last time. Actually, you know what I'm going to do? I'm just going to have, if people can say their names and say hello, I will start off. And I actually, no, I'll just introduce a couple of people to start with. Devin and Carl are here from CloudBees. We work together on the pipeline team at CloudBees. So they're also joining us today. And Mark is back again. I'll also hear from doing evangelism now, right? It's evangelism. He's also the maintainer of the Git plug-in. And let's see here. Marky is a contributor in general. And, you know, I'm sorry, I keep forgetting your name. It's really bad. Who did I miss? Jeff. Thank you. Sorry, I'm looking at Jeff. Long time contributor. Geographically, very close to you. Aren't you, Jeff? I think you're in the center. We're virtually neighbors compared to everyone else here. Yep, definitely. Yeah. And I feel bad about, like, not seeing you more often, in fact, and not getting in touch with like, ah. So you're just across the water, right? Yep. Dambridge Island. There you go. Okay. Other water than I was thinking, but there you go. It's all water out here, by the way, people. Pacific Northwest. Are you across the water? Yes, which water? So lots of water. Yeah. There's a lake around the side and the sound on the other and then yeah. From the sky. Yes. So, Jeff, I think the last time you and I saw each other face to face was at the hackathon a couple of years ago. Was it right? Or did you get a Jenkins word? Jenkins word. I was at DevOps world this last time. Were you there? Okay. Yes, I was. So we said hello there, but yeah. Anyways, so last time we were talking about personas and looking at what we were going to, how they could help us focus our next steps. We were going to take some time to look over the five personas that we had and see what we could glean from them and map them to, Mark was talking about mapping them to the maturity doc. The maturity doc, yes. So we also talked about adding like a few of the questions. Right. The kind of questions they would ask. That's right. I added some into the personas as well. And I believe that while he's not here, I do believe that Stephen also added some. Cool. Let's see. So and I should actually be able to do some of these. Where'd they go? Looks like no. Yes. Are they in the notes maybe? Nope. I think we're missing some. Maybe I'm, am I looking at an old version of it? That's the one in the doc. I remember they're being like, you know, the cut and paste developer. Yeah. I mean, stuff like that. I am surprised that there's not more there. Yeah. Okay, Margie, I don't know if you have a different link than what I have. No, this is the same link. I'm going through just a second editing. Nope. No, all the questions are not there. Okay. Technology has betrayed us. Yes, it has. Okay. Well, then that's going to be, yeah, that's going to be it. That's a new action item. Add your questions. Yeah, exactly. And then did you have a chance to do the mapping that you were talking about or? I did not get a chance to do the mapping. I also have another action item. So in the Zoom chat, I put a link to the maturity model as well as to the personas doc. I have three action items, I believe. I need to add my questions because they're not there. I need to also do the mapping to the maturity model. And I have the comms that I'm still working on. So we last talked about the combined blog post, email to the SIG mailing list about what we're up to. That way we can sort of generate and a Twitter post so we can generate more buzz and see if people want to come and join. So I have started that draft. I will probably be able to share it with the team because I do want to have everybody's input and buy in before we send that out. So I will have that probably out, I would say by Monday, definitely before our next meeting because what I would like to do is finalize that on our next meeting and everybody gives a plus one to it and then we get that sent out. I will be full transparency on why I was doing that, going through meeting a bunch of people the last week and a half. I have been absolutely swamped. Oh, yeah. That's life happens. That's the thing about these SIGs. None of us did. None of this is our first job. It's usually additional things that we're doing. So that happens. So what I do want to add about the personas and all of the mappings that we're doing, I don't want to sound negative when I say this. I'm going to say it and then I'm totally open to feedback. Don't fling me. I do think before we move any further, we need to close this out. I don't want to spend a lot of time. I think we've spent the last two or three meetings going over it and that's all super good. But I do think we need to close this portion out or at least get the MVP zero out into the world. Yeah. Well, the point of this is partly that we have a focusing but also so that we all have a common base from which to discuss. So that we're talking from the same language. And so if we could sit around for another couple of weeks figuring out our language and it doesn't necessarily get us anywhere. Exactly. So I apologize if that comes off incorrectly. Does anyone not agree with this? Okay. Just checking. For me, generally, silence means consent and agreement. So yeah. Or that you mute one of the two. Agree. Sounds good to me. Right. So everybody has the dock over the next few days or the next week. If you can go in and add some questions into there, that would be really awesome. Yeah. We do have the next meeting for EMEA is Thursday at 6am pacific time, which I think translates to like 2pm UTC, give or take an hour. Yeah. I will be bringing this up in that meeting as well. So hopefully by Friday, we'll be able to have all of this and then, you know, that and the comms and then close it out. So one thing we could do is post the I think the person who's most interested that I've heard the most from is Olig. So I think we should probably just post the action item in the and the link to the personas in the Gitter channel so that people can work asynchronously so that basically we can be in the process of closing this by the time the the EMEA meeting rolls around and then really close it on the next day so that so that won't hit the ground running from there. So then I'm going to take I'm going to take a different approach to my comms action item. Okay. I'm going to make the blog post step number two. Yeah. By the end of today, what I'm going to do is not only get the email out, I'll also put a copy of that email in our Gitter channel and that way we're communicating to the masses sooner rather than later. Yeah. That makes sense. I think the the the point here, I mean, and you don't have to think of it. I would usually when I think of an email, I think of something that's going to take a while to just, Hey, we're starting this up. Here's the here's the link to the personas that we're talking about. Please give us feedback and or, you know, join it, right? Can be really quick. Got it. Right. And then I agree the blog post can be longer and like, you know, talk a little later about and we can sort of present the personas and how we're how we're going about it. I will take the action item to get that email out to before the end of the day nighttime. Okay. That's always a misnomer, but you know what I mean? Yeah. The end of the end of working end of working day to day for you. Yeah. Okay. So there's that. All right, comms. Markey email end of day to day. I guess I should ask if people that are joining us had any specific topics that they wanted to bring up today or if you're just joining to be part of the discussion and anything new that any that was old business. We have a couple of actions I know from there is there a new new business. No new topic for me. I'm just eavesdropping. Okay, cool. How did you I can ask you how did you feel about the discussion we had the last time you were here about the documentation? Did that was that helpful to you? Very. Thank you. Yeah, well, and I love that you're continuing to evolve the personas. Thanks very much. There you go. All right. I do have another topic. Okay. Oleg placed in the channel early this morning about he'd like to start a doodle for the pipeline is YAML project discussion for the Google summer of code. Okay. Sure. I hadn't responded to that yet, but how many acronyms can I use in one thing? GSOC YAML pipeline as code. Anyways. So I think the first discussion topic on that for anybody who's watching this recording is potential mentors. I would definitely have to be on that list. Yes. And then sort of compulsory. I cannot dedicate my time to that project because I'm already on I meant potential mentoring on three other projects. And I'm definitely interested in being a potential mentor. And so for me, it depends on which other products get selected because I want to do to be co-mentors on two to three this year. I actually cut back on the GSOC admin stuff. So I had more time for mentoring. Cool. Anybody else here? But we can, you know, if anyone else is watching, they're interested in doing that. That's also welcome to join in. Just drop a line in the Gator channel. Cool. So potential mentors. For anyone that isn't already familiar with this, the idea here is to instead of having pipeline and this is just declarative pipeline, right? Correct. Yeah. For declarative pipeline, instead of doing it in Groovy, having a YAML version of it, a YAML syntax that up to at least up to a certain point is YAML and then has some Groovy in some spot because eventually you have there's evaluations that are going to require Groovy. But the question is how much? We'll see. I am going to post a link in the Zoom chat to that project idea. If you want to add that to, actually, I will add it to the notes because I can do that. Okay. Great. This is a very long requested feature. So it'll be interesting to see how it goes and whether it is something that fits well with the GSOC size of project. I mean, I think it's possible. Yeah. This is actually something, I work for a fairly large company and I've seen a couple of different people try their own approach at layering this on top of Jenkins. It would be really cool if there's a Jenkins way to do it instead of having people trying to build their own thing. The other thing is there's people that I talk to that are talking about moving to something like CircleCI. One of the reasons is the ease of configuration with the YAML file. It helps Jenkins compete with some of these other things. Those are the two reasons I'm excited about it. Yeah, definitely. There's also, I mean, some of the stuff we talked about for IDE tools, there's much easier ways to do YAML auto-completion and stuff like that for a number of things, right? Is that part of this project, maybe? IDE tools or? No, I think there's another project that's doing IDE tools specifically to VS code. Oh, cool. Oh, for the GSOC. Yeah. Okay. In December, we had a webinar with folks from T-Mobile who presented their poet framework that does basically this kind of thing with Pipeline as YAML. Then in January, we had a webinar with the people from, oh dear, how embarrassing, Booz, Alan Hamilton, who have an alternate technique for doing Pipeline as YAML. Both of them have much higher level concepts. It's not just Pipeline as YAML. They've got a much, much bigger concept that both of those are using, but don't forget them. Yeah, that is Stephen's project. Stephen is not here, but Stephen uses the Jenkins template, or he built and maintains the Jenkins templating engine. Yeah. Mark, could you, you just mentioned those two. Could you post the, paste the links in under the related presentations here? Sure. I will just, because I think anyone that's wanting to get familiar with kind of the technology in this area would want to take a look at that. Thanks a lot. And there is an IDE tools, GSOC, VS code IDE together. Is that my hearing that right? Sorry, I was on mute and I believe there is something that a student is currently working on. I'm trying to verify that right now. Okay, cool. Something to think about as well. So, there was a community bridge project that just concluded. That's what I'm thinking. Slayton Nunes did the, and just presented that in a webinar in the last few days, along with a presentation by Tim Jacob. And those are both recorded as well. So, and I, if you put those in, I can paste links into there as well when I find them. Cool. All right. I've got a space for it here for you. I'll definitely be going back and looking at these. I feel like I'm a little bit behind behind the curve on, on some of what's been going on in the community. So, great. What else? Any, what other topics do we have? Main thing is the questions from last time. There it is. Does anyone want to specifically say, you know, I'll do the majority of anyone persona? Do we want to, because I think it's, it's probably harder for just like, everyone kind of do some. It's like, let's, like obviously we should, but if we, you should take one or something that might be, that might get more traction. If anyone's willing. I would be willing to do that. You mean, as far as the questions are concerned? Yes, as far as writing the, like saying, like having each person kind of take a, each of us take one, one persona that, that they'll fill out the majority of the question. Ah, hear the question. Like, were you just filling these out? Okay. You were just doing that. Okay. I was like, did they just suddenly appear? No, they've been working. Okay. Um, so yeah. Yeah, I'll take David. If nobody wants to jump on anything. Jury, what? Oh, David, right. Got it. Okay. Um, great. Um, I can try to do Yuri. It's been a while, but I think I can, I, I've been there. And I'm happy to take Olivia. Okay. Who's left? Uh, I think Erica. I'll take Erica. Okay. Cool. I may need a reminder about the, uh, the, the backstory behind the, I wasn't ops or I'm not ops, or I'm enterprise dev ops sort of quotes after these descriptors. The, the characteristics underneath are clear enough, but that was just me. That was just me making, making light. It was like some of the, the evangelist slash marketing side of me was like seeing the, the, the ad of like, I am dev ops. Right. And then you know, some of the, I'm not ops. Okay. Okay. Ten four. Got it. Like it was just random humor on my part. Got it. Got it. Okay. Not meant as anything specific. Um, let's see here. So did Lisa, did we have someone for Lisa today? Not that. Um, like I said, that one's sort of the least filled out too. So there's a little bit of space in there. So I, I did have a question. Are, are we looking at just like pipeline, pipeline authoring questions? Because when I look at the personas, the some, so especially some of the dev opsy ones, um, my, my, my first thoughts are more, um, infrastructure type stuff. Do, do those, do those make sense or are we not? Like what? Well, like, um, how do I, how do I install and upgrade Jenkins? How often should I upgrade Jenkins and plugins? I mean, those are like things that are on the mind of people like Yuri or baby Erica, but are we just considering what the questions they might ask about pipeline authoring? I mean, I would personally, I'd rather see the pipeline questions. But you know, I, I think all roads lead to pipeline eventually in, in our world. Like there's, you're going to touch pipeline. If you're doing Jenkins, you're going to touch pipeline pipelines in general. So I would say, let's treat this as a brainstorming, right? Where it's like, no, we're just, just whatever questions, if you end up with 15 or whatever, I'd like to, I'd like to see the pipeline inside of them. But like if you're, if the main ones are like, how often do I upgrade? And that's also reasonable. Right? Because that tells us something. Yeah. Because, you know, if you're just thinking about the pipeline, thinking about the upgrade question, an upgrade could affect a pipeline. That's a good point. So all roads do lead to pipeline. Yeah. I mean, one way, yeah, exactly. You're interacting with the system. You know, or you upgrade something and it changes the way that the pipeline authoring works or, you know, okay, Devin, do you have time to do any, to like fill out some of the Lisa person? I mean, you are, you definitely fit that, that, that mole. If you don't have the time, I can try. I don't know if I'll get to it, but no, it's fine. This is, this is just putting it on the list. And if you don't, you don't actually mark. You could also do this too, right? If you have any time. Sorry, I was defocused, focused entirely on the getting the links put in. What was the topic? Oh, okay. So we're talking about doing, filling out the personas and adding questions, basically writing in question, the kind of questions that this persona person in this role would ask, right? And I'm just assigned to this. I am happy to ask, I am happy to ask questions. And I can even type the questions that I asked you back. No problem. And the, the Lisa personas that is the sort of the long-term contributor already knows a ton about Jenkins. And this is just like sort of think about what, as a, as a, as a long-term individual, what kind of questions do you ask these days? As I said, a lot of this, this person actually probably needs some filling out too, just as like, hey, this is more, I think what we're going to end up with in this persona is finding that there's, there's things to be done here, but they're, they're much broader and more, I would say ephemeral. They're sort of like, well, we need to make it easier for people to write plugins or how to like make it easier for, for people to add steps or whatever. They're, they're much sort of deeper technical issues, right? Or questions. So whatever you, if you, whatever time you have, if you want to spend 15, 20 minutes on it at some point, that'd be great. Either one of you or both. Yeah, I just, I've all told you, there you go. Accepted. Okay. Yeah, I was just, just, I just asked some of those kind of questions in the list not long ago. Hey, how do I write a unit test when I'm trying to add, add symbols to a plugin that I maintain? Right. How do that, how do I assure that the symbols I added make sense, et cetera, et cetera. So things that, that are a developer centered plugin, developer centered. Yeah, I can have that level of, yeah, that level of thing. So yeah, cool. All right. So that's our sort of action items for next time. I'm gonna put that under open items. That's probably gonna, I'll just say action items. Having done that, what do people, having figured out the personas, what do you, do people have thoughts about what, what they're, what we're going to talk about next time, which is to say, what do you think our next, next steps are going to be? That's my, I think that once we get the personas done, and we have them sort of mapped on how, how they look in the maturity model. And I then think, then we should start to maybe plan out what we want to do. Like, yeah, do we want to start trying to go through, you know, I don't know if we go through JIRA tickets and look at what people are saying out there and start to match that to maybe features and things like that. Or maybe we'll have community feedback from the communications that go out. But really what I'd like to do is start to figure out what the, what we're going to start working towards, what features are we going to start building? Okay. And that may be a time where we start talking about what is the documentation that's out there to, to achieve these certain things. And do we achieve the fixing or making sure documentation is, is leading to the right avenues or paths? Okay. And then documentation. Okay. Great. I just, I wanted to have some people can sort of let that ruminate for next time. Those are, those are, I think it's a good sort of four or five topics to sort of think into, see whether or not, which ones we want to choose. Yeah. So, and, and I guess once we have those questions, we can start that. Basically, those will, will, there'll be some features that will fall out of each of those. Like we'll probably be able to easily pick two or three, two or three actions that might help on each of those things. And then see if they're, see what, what has the most weight. Yep. Cool. Okay. Great. By the way, I'm sort of thinking that we're sort of closing in on the end of the meeting. I don't know if anyone, like I, if we don't have more to cover today, then not, I'm not trying to run people off, but more just like, I have to drop off, but thanks very much. Okay. Perfect. Thanks, Mark. All righty, everybody. I don't think, I don't have anything else. I did, everybody, please make a note that Liam will be on vacation. So he will be missing the next meetings, but the following. Yeah, exactly. And if nobody else has anything, go ahead and give everybody back 30, some minutes of their day. Thanks for joining everyone. And I look forward to the questions next time. See you guys later. Thanks a lot. Cheers, everybody.