 Okay, tell us a little bit about your your family and your early life my family. I grew up in Amsterdam. I have two brothers my dad was actually never home and So my mom kind of raised us My dad was also Much pretty much an alcoholic so when he was there Is what it was it was not nice of being at home. So All my my brothers and I tried to escape the house as much as possible as you can understand Which actually led to the fact that I was out of the house by 16 But after that the relationship with my mom got better and it's good now. She's still alive, so But you were going out in Amsterdam you were very young you were what about 15 Ah Yeah, well Amsterdam is is the place where it all happened for gays and I came out of the closet when I was 15 beginning of 16. So for me it was easy So just discover everything at the early age and being so close to it close to everything so yeah, it was more or less natural that you Hit the bars early when we were living in Amsterdam, so But you were you were keeping a bar You were a bar keeper. I guess they called yeah only 16 now. I was 17 the end of 17 when I started working in the bars, so But still early yeah, I Guess I just I just liked being in gay bars, so what gay bars do you remember from that time from that time? I started working in the traffic. It was a small bar in Rechers-Waastrad It's gone now like most of the bars actually in Amsterdam after that I Did start it that did my study as well. So I will work next to my study and and I used to after after the traffic I started working for Monford Longer in Club it And also I still did my study, so that was about four or five years When I got back from the States I Start working in the player in the clubs again, so I did it for a pretty long time tell us about the things you experienced you were very young and Certainly some of the things you saw had to be Yeah Some of that some of that I remember my first time I went into the Argos because I was really interested into letter I figured out later I was about 17. I think 17 18 But I didn't dare to go into the dark rooms. I wanted it really really much, but I just didn't have the guts to do it Yeah More or less I'm not shocked that easily But the Argos was an iconic Yeah, it was world-famous. Yeah, what tell us about what you saw what you've experienced what I experienced there was I came in there very shy boy and After a couple of years that was done Now it's like I said I Was in there with a friend of mine and who was also really getting into into letter and You know, well, we just we just discovered it and Eventually get balls and get get courage enough to go in But what did you see when you went in lots of guys in leather lots of guys in leather That was kind of more or less the only fetish that people were really Really into that those days You didn't see a lot of robber and you didn't see any sports where at all Yeah, that's all kinds of leather, but they were all in leather Interesting How long were you going there before you finally went into the basement? About three months But I saw in the basement was something I was longing for for years Guys having sex I think there was no other place in those times than to do it as in bars with the dark Yeah I'm still I This this point I this time I still like dark rooms. I prefer dark rooms over internet sex How long were you going to the Argos before you actually went into the dark rooms and what why did you do that? Because I was interested in having sex with other men and I know it was happening down there. So I finally had courage enough to go downstairs and Figure it all out and see if it was happening over there and I kind of liked it and I got into it What did you see I guys having sex mostly anything shocking no no really In those days it was more it was fucking and sucking and some SNM, but Definitely not the fisting thing like it is right now and I'm more shocking things But what other bars did you experience in Amsterdam at that time because a lot of the bars are gone A lot of the bars are gone. Like I said that the traffic bar when I started working is gone The April is gone her fan is gone And those were all the bars in the regular swastra where we used to go out a lot. I actually had a Double life in Amsterdam one in the warmest rod one in the regular swastra And one of the scenes I was working in and the other scene I was fucking You have a rule no bondage on the first day what what is that? picked up the guy in the articles the other night and We had some fun until He asked me if you could time me up And that's interesting as I think everything is especially the first time I Agreed to that And it all went wrong from there He actually forced me to have sex when I didn't want to want to any more I was still young I was 20 20 something But after that for me, it's always rule number one no bond that's on the first day and that's because of a bad experience So if someone is viewing this interview and they want to experience bondage Do you have any advice for them take do it with somebody that you trust and that you know You mentioned that you moved to the United States when you were about 21 or so What took you there? Why did you go there? I took me there? My school actually my I did an intern intern intern management management internship in San Diego, La Jolla But at Merritt hotels, I was doing the International School for Hospitality Management In the Hague the hotel school the Hague and I had I had to do an internship So that's more or less the reason that I did I've run there Stayed there for two years And actually I think San Diego is quite boring So what I did was I worked my days back to back most time So eight days working four days off and then go up to San Francisco and see my friends over there and have some fun Tell us about the San Francisco you experienced in those days It was 92 so we just For me it wasn't is nice city. I had a lot of friends there, but on the other hand the city was really depressed because of everything that happened years before and But still I had a lot of fun over there and a lot of guys in letter and It was a nice city. I love it. I still do I think San Francisco was Really in a state of change Yeah, yeah Then from everything possible to nothing possible Because of the laws because of the gift of the city of the government Dark rooms weren't allowed anymore. So all the clubs went underground But it still happened never changed tell us a little bit about the underground I think that's happening more now It got back actually, but in those days All the dark rooms closed in San Francisco because of a HIV and AIDS But if you knew your way around there it was easy there were all houses being turned into sex clubs What differences did you experience between? The San Francisco scene versus what you knew in Amsterdam San Francisco is more open You could walk down the streets in your letter. Yeah Especially mark Side of mark that was it was great. I had I had a good I had good experiences over there being a letter Go to the eagle go to the beer bus and You saw you saw people on the streets in letter and in Amsterdam you didn't see that In the bar muster in the bar I was pleased to find that Guys for more guys in San Francisco or more of a community than in Amsterdam Really? Yeah, really. Oh everybody knows each other knew each other over there and Friendships were easier I'm a little surprised You experience is differently. Well, I think that the Dutch scene is very More true to form Yeah, but in those days it was really small a small thing so You said that when you were in San Francisco that the young gay man could not have cared less about safer sex Practices this was the early 90s. Why was that the case? Ignorance I think But Also, the younger the younger guys in San Francisco didn't experience all the deaths and and all the friends dying I Was I was I came out early. So for me a lot of guys in my in my A lot of friends of my died at those days, and I'm still lucky that I can sit here to be honest It's the younger guys who grew up after that Didn't experience that and never never had to go to the funeral of a good friend So I think the more inhibited and more That's a little bit shocking considering the information at that time, yeah But I think if you don't look at it you don't Are you if you look away? It's not your neighbor But your travels to the United States have not always been No, they've not always been positive. I was working for a big hotel chain At my internship they offered me a very good job in San Francisco so I could transfer over there But the problem is I had to get my cream card and Since I was not married then I Had to get married But my green card my green card for my for my internship expired So I had to go back to Holland. So I'm married over here With an American Very good friend of mine But it turned out I had to take an HIV test for applying for the green card and It turned out bad That was more or less the time that I found out I was HIV positive as well as back in 92 and I couldn't go back to to the States anymore and So more or less My career was ruined. So I had to go back to Amsterdam And which I did What did you do when you got back to Amsterdam? I started working in the clubs again Okay, and for a couple of years Until I met my ex-boyfriend and Which are who I met at the harvest action And he decided together with me that I Should not work in the nightlife anymore. So We more or less figured out something for me to do which Eventually ended up in opening my own business Before we jump to that when we met to prepare for this interview you mentioned that the Berlin the German letter scene is incredible, and I think that is the Iconic letter scene today. What are your thoughts on that? I think the letter scene in Amsterdam was more flourishing in those days than the scene in Berlin Amsterdam was the gate capital of Europe Lot of guys from the States always came to Amsterdam a lot of guys from around the world came to Amsterdam and Berlin took over many years later actually Okay, what are your thoughts on that today? I like Berlin, but I'm going to raise in Amsterdam And I think it's a pity that the whole scene died down Do you feel let me rephrase that why do you feel that it's really died down in Amsterdam? because all the bars are closing down actually Also a lot of guys from Amsterdam go to Berlin or Antwerp alone to have fun and Amsterdam's not a traffic for gay tourists anymore. It's too expensive to price themselves out of the market and it's it's it's too busy with Tourists having stacked parties and that sort of thing. So it's a completely different tourist market right now and as a gay Myself I would not go to Amsterdam with those hotel prices and the prices for restaurants and everything But do you feel that it's the tourists that caused the bars to close or is there some other reason no That's not the reason and that's called the internet Amsterdam is really really is still really attractive city. I still love it and I always will But the internet made sure that all the gay bars are closing down. I Think that's a worldwide problem actually it is we see it all over we do but You mentioned that you discovered you were HIV positive very early on and You also said at one point when we prepared for this interview that you were one of the first people to go on the So now tell us about that Well, I just I found out that I was HIV positive in 1991 Luckily for me that they didn't put me on a CT because my T cells were my thesis was still great and good and I could postpone taking medication for another four years and After those four years the first the first cocktails were Were intended so Yeah, I was lucky that I could postpone taking medication until that happened. So in 1905 I started to take my first pills What are your thoughts on the HIV treatments today? This is my sixth cocktail and I'm taking this one for many years now so Actually, I'm very healthy and very happy Only the side effects of taking pills ten to six years Are actually worse than the cause itself Why is that? Because pills are ruining your body from inside Taking pills for 26 years is taking a take taking effect. So I'm still feeling fine, but Taking cholesterol medications. I have diabetes. I have Stomach problems and that's all because of the medication not because of the HIV But I'm still Feeling pretty healthy and I can do whatever I want. So I'm not complaining about it. What are your thoughts on people who see the cocktails today as Basically a controlled disease similar to diabetes. What do you have to say to them? If you still have a choice Getting infected by HIV Make sure that you don't get it because taking pills for 26 years is a nightmare better not But it's their own it's their own life It's their own body and I'm not the guy that has to tell people what to do or what to do I can only advise them and out of my experience And that's what I would say When you were younger You were against gay marriage Why was that the case? I try to explain this I Think to be integrated in society We don't have to do this you don't have to do exactly the same as all those trades do I was against it because I Think we prove our relationships as well Just living together in Holland. We had the same rights. We could have Samo leaves contract. So that's on the same level as a marriage the whole idea of marriage Didn't attract me and I was not only against gay marriage. I was against straight Lucas talking because I'm married now for 12 years. Why did your point of view change? Actually to put it bluntly because it was it was it was easy for me and my and my boyfriend then my husband now Legally to buy a house read we could we could ease it was easier okay, but When the day was there I was really happy that I did it so now I can understand how people got married Tell us How and my black body start I would start it And also perhaps tell us what it is in Amsterdam. What do you mean? What it is? Tell us a little bit about the shop Black body is a fetish shop. I started it almost 25 years ago 24 to be exactly next year with 25 I Started out as a specialist in rubber my Ex-boyfriend who I talked about already and I were heavily into rubber 24 years ago and We always had to go to London to get it because in Holland you couldn't get anything Some pieces that robbed some pieces of expectations that was about it. So we always went to London to buy it and We started talking to the guys who produced using it over there and Then the idea started started to shop in Amsterdam, so that was 24 years ago and from 90% rubber at that time Including some toys and some leather Right now we have a shop that's about 40% letter and rubber and 60% Sportswear from brands like boxer and addicted Because the whole market changed the whole fetish scene changed. Oh, what did sorry the whole market changed fetish changed as well, so We changed with it and for us it was a way to survive the crisis What crisis do you mean that the economical crisis in 2008? which really hit us twice because Now first of all there were no tourists in Amsterdam second of all the whole DVD market collapsed and I was selling a lot of DVDs back then So then sportswear came around We moved to a bigger shop in Kirkstraat Right now we have a pretty pretty big sportswear collection boxer cell block addicted our own brand in rubber We do some leather as well What plans do you have for the shop in the future? That all depends how internet is developing because 30% of our shop for 30% of our turnover is online so 70% is still shop and that's enough to keep the shop open but If we're I don't know how that's gonna change. I have no idea if people are still coming to Amsterdam to the shop to buy You have you even have a lot of customers on online customers that come from Holland and don't bother to come to Amsterdam anymore Wow, that's interesting. Yeah, how has black body benefited the Amsterdam community? We're more or less introduced to the rubber scene than Amsterdam Okay Got more Accepted in into the letter scene because that was hard in the beginning Rubber was something completely different on the letter, but I am I have a lot of fetishes letter rubber uniforms, so for me it was more or less When black body When black body opened up that rubber was more accessible to people so more more people started wearing rubber into the letter scene as well What are your thoughts on that change in the scene? I think it's good Yeah, when you use when you use because a part of the letter party is 25 years ago You only see guys running around in black leather and Hardly I know Robert there was some rubber but not a lot and that all changed a lot And I think that's good because there's a lot of people with a lot of different fetishes. Okay, I Think it's good that they mix if you could change any aspect of your Leather fetish Would you change anything? Why not? Because I enjoyed my life so far and I joined I joined I was enjoying the scene the only thing I would change is Getting away from their computers and start going out again. I Missed that I really missed that. I'm not really into the big parties, but I Like losing in the small bars, and I missed that What's the biggest misconception Well, most of the people know me from the business, so they don't know me at all my the biggest mixed misconception people think that I'm really unapproachable Well, Rick, I would like to thank you for a lovely interview Dark lands during Belgium leather pride. Thank you for driving down from Amsterdam to do this. I Love being here. So Lovely. Thank you very much. All right