 Welcome and thank you for joining the New America Fellows program in the international security program for this webinar discussion of Hassan Abbas's the profits air. I'm a we say you director of the fellows program for more than 20 years, New America has supported hundreds of fellows who've gone on to publish books, produce documentary films and other deeply reported projects. We're grateful to be able to host Hassan for this conversation today and Hassan congratulations on the publication of your book. Let me restart a few housekeeping notes. If you have questions during the event, please submit them to the Q&A function at the bottom of your screen, and Kim will answer them or actually present them to Hassan to answer accordingly. If you need close captioning zoom now provides that function, please click the CC button at the bottom of the menu bar. We encourage you to sign up to our newsletter and events list so that you can learn more about the fellows program and receive future rotations like these, and you can find that information on our website. Many copies of the profits there are available for purchase through a book selling partner solid state books, and you can find that link to buy that book on the event card, which you'll see momentarily. Before I turn the conversation over to Kim and Hassan, let me introduce you to them. Hassan Abbas was a class of 2017 national fellow with us. He's the distinguished professor of international relations at the Near East South Asia and strategic study center with the National Defense University in Washington DC. He serves as a senior advisor with a project on she is him and global affairs at Harvard universities, whether head center for international affairs. His current research work focuses on building narratives for countering political and religious extremism and rule of law reforms and developing states. Earlier he served as professor and department chair at National Defense University's College of International Security Affairs, and as the distinguished cod is on professor Columbia University. He serves as a journalist author and analysts with more than 20 years of experience and print and broadcast media covering the Middle East, International Affairs and US foreign policy shows reporter for the BBC and the Financial Times, and devolks grunt. She is a non resident senior fellow at the Carnegie Endowment for international peace. She is the author of black wave Saudi Arabia, Iran and the 40 arrival read the unraveled culture, religion and collective memory in the Middle East, which was named a New York book of 2020. She's also the author of the New York Times bestseller, the Secretary, a journey with Hillary Clinton from Beirut to the heart of American power. She serves on the board of trustees at the American University of Beirut, and on the board of directors of the organization of Arab reporters for the investigative journalism. She was born and raised in Beirut. With that, Kim, I'll turn the conversation over to you. You're on mute, Kim. Thank you very much. I always say we're still even though we've been doing this for over a year. We still have these little moments of please unmute your your microphone. You'd think that by now we would get used to it. It's great to be here. Thank you very much for asking me to be in conversation with Hassan Abbas about his new book. Hassan is great to see you from a distance. It's great to be in conversation with you about this really important book, The Prophet's Air. This is the life and legacy of one of Prophet Muhammad's closest confidants and Islam's patron saint, Ali ibn Abi Talib, who is one of the most important spiritual and intellectual authorities in Islam after the prophet. And if I'm not mistaken, this is one of the first such biographies to come out in English. And I think not only is it a very important work that you poured a lot of effort in, it's a great contribution to the conversation, not only about Imam Ali, but also about Islam in general about Sunnism and Shiaism. And I must say that I found it incredibly well written, very accessible to a generalist audience. Really the prose was beautiful. The complex matter is explained in a very accessible manner and I really enjoyed reading it and I learned a lot and I'm delighted to be in conversation with you today. I want to start with asking you a quick answer for a quick answer for those in the audience who don't know who Ali ibn Abi Talib is. Give us a 30 second explanation of who he is so that we can then delve into the conversation. Thank you so much. First, I'm truly honored. Thank you so much to New America for the support. Thank you very much, Kim, for doing this. 30 seconds. So Ali ibn Abi Talib is the prophet Muhammad, peace be upon him's right hand man, his chief aide, his closest associate, also his cousin, and then later on his son-in-law. For the Shia Muslims, he was also the first Imam and the Shiaism believes that the prophethood ended and the concept of Imamath, which is kind of a spiritual status given to the close associates, that started. And for the Sunni Muslims, he was also extremely important but also as the fourth Caliph. So she has also believed him as the fourth Caliph. But the last line, she has also believed that his right was taken away. He should have been the prophet's successor right after his death. That would be a 30 second blurb. And again, not to simplify things too much, but I think it's important for our audience to get a quick introduction to these concepts. You just mentioned Shia's feel that Ali's right to be the heir of the prophet was taken away from him. He was the fourth Caliph, but he was not the first, he was not his heir. Sunnis see him as the fourth Caliph, but they don't necessarily see him as the prophet's heir. And that brings us straight into the idea of the Sunni-Shia divide. I know that's a very long conversation and that's not necessarily the topic of our conversation today, but give us a 30 second explanation of where that difference lies, the theological difference, if you will. Thank you so much. It's far more complex than a simple label as Shia or Sunni. There are so many groups within the Shia, there are so many groups within the Sunni. And as I'll talk later on, there's a great commonality as well. But also I would say the Sufis who actually combine the worldview about Ali. So it is about Ali as the Sufi saint of the patron saint also who every major Sunni group in the world today, except one believes Ali to be their supreme master. And the differences, the theological differences became apparent over a period of time. For the first, I would say even 100 years, they were no distinct or 200 years, no distinct group as Shia Sunni. They developed later on, it became very political. Now there are theological differences in the way they would pray, but minor differences. So some would call it political, some would call it theological, some would call it even spiritual. So there are so many different ways I can explain it. But the crux is the word Shia means those who are the friends of Ali. The partisans of Ali, Shia of Ali. Shia of Ali, that would be one way. She has emphasized Ali's centrality to Islam more than the Sunnis that that's in very short I can. I will get into some of that divide at the heart of Islam in the conversation, because you address some of it in your book mostly a little bit in the introduction but also in the conclusion. I don't want to give away too much already at the beginning, but we'll talk about how the figure of Ali Ibn Abi Talib can help bridge that divide, which I think is a wonderful element that you have in your book. A lot of people today because of the headlines because of sectarian violence that we've witnessed over the last couple of decades in the Arab and Muslim world believe that Sunnis and Shias have always killed each other. That it's always been beset by violence, but it's not really the case as I write myself in my book, it's really because of the headlines that we see today. The schism is there, it's an historical one, but you yourself Hassan are proof that coexistence between Sunnis and Shias is very much possible is very much part of people's everyday life still in many cases. Tell us a little bit about your experience in the world of Islam in the world of Sunnis and Shias and why that drove you to write this book. Thank you so much. That also allows me to provide a personal context. So I was when I was growing up in Pakistan. This is 1980s and going from school, religion on college. That's the time when a military dictator by the name of journals, the old heart was at the helm of affairs. And that's the time when in Pakistan at that time, this whole issue of whether you are a Shia or Sunni became kind of more important. And in my personal tradition, my parents belong to two different traditions one Shia one Sunni my grandparents also was one Shia and one Sunni. And this question was kind of very unusual for me if anyone could ask me in Pakistan at that time in 1980s, whether you are a Shia or a Sunni, because it would not matter to a great extent, although identities were very clear. Then points my my move to the United States in 2001 and the whole 911 tragedy. Then, of course, the whole your religious identity assumed a different level. And then I saw in America also for the first time 2003 four after the Iraq war, people started asking you, you are a Shia or a Sunni. And then my role as a teacher and professor, and people. Were they asking you that in the US. Yes. Were they asking you that in the US. Yeah, I started happening in the rest after I think 911 and after 2003, the Iraq war, because everyone was saying, Okay, what is the Shia and a Sunni. So for my own experience and life, a personal experience has been one of as you've rightly said, not only coexistence, but we were never told at home to to to have a certain bias but I had seen people becoming very conscious of this division one short anecdote. And I remember this was two years ago five or six years ago I was at the Istanbul airport, and I was going for umrah or Hajj to Saudi Arabia wearing my clothes, which we wear for going for pilgrimage which is white sheets to white sheets. A person walks up to me and shows me a picture and says do you know this person. I could see I think I realized who it was and I was in a different mode I'm going for a pilgrimage. And I said no, he said this is Hassan Nasrallah, do you recognize him. This is the Istanbul International Airport, and I said, Yes, I think I but I don't know him. He immediately asked me you are a Shia or Sunni. And again, being in a spiritual mode, and that in any case I didn't want to answer I said, I'm a simple Muslim. And then he started a whole speech about Nasrallah. What he was doing was he was clearly winning my police hat and law enforcement or as a security analyst, he was recruiting. I had made a couple of calls to my students intelligence and police in Turkey I don't know what happened later on, but but that's the way it has gone so deep people immediately ask you off of your identity so people are forced to then assume those those that have a sectarian identity as well. And so why did you want to write this, this book, Hassan what did you feel was necessary to add in the conversation what was missing and what drove you personally to to draw to to to write this book. I think it was a personal search for a hero. And when I say that the person search for hero. I mean in ordinary life we constantly look back all of us to look for heroes of the past, so that we can navigate the present. And when I remember still when I first read about at least this famous quote, if you're not my brother in faith, you are my equal in humanity. There's always somebody who admired Ali, my my admission with became more intense when I learned more about him, and I found him to be a person of all times and for all people and what I mean by that is, there are a few historical figures who can overcome their, their images. I mean most of these are seen as either religious leaders, political leaders, warriors, a great sports person, etc etc. And that was one who had seen fame, who had seen popularity, who was the bravest warrior, chivalrous man need a scene as as the patron saint as well. And he combined all those very important characteristics in a very elegant fashion, and he went through a very tragic path as well he as in his own view, his right was taken away, but he never took up arms, never started a political campaign. To fight his other contemporaries. So that was one reason I saw in him a personality who's very relevant today in today's age, which is very polarized, which is where divisiveness look at the world today in terms of politicization polarization. And his, his personality, in that sense really inspired me one quote that also got my attention early on was Edward Gibbon who had said early United the qualifications of a poet, a soldier, and a saint. And that's what what explains it, it the best. And last but not the least, other than the sheer so many factor which is, because constantly when you see divisiveness within your own religious tradition that you're very proud of, you're a practicing Muslim, and you see all those beauties and the depth or essence of your religion, kind of buried just under these sectarian labels, it's become it becomes a very painful experience for you as well. And last but not the least that the why, the response to the wide. I think in the United States in the post 911 scenario. There are certain sweeping generalizations and we, which many security analysts and myself part of that world of security specialists and scholars who look at a religious tradition purely from a security lens. And that takes away the spirituality part, the mysticism part, everything else the humanitarian part. And I thought by telling the story, I can bring a discussion about Islam in a way that that is missing from the main discourse in So who was your audience, Hasan when you wrote this book was it the security establishment in in the US to give them a different narrative was it the general audience was it Muslims themselves both in the US and in other countries and in the Muslim world. And all of them in a sense but most primarily one, I was really surprised that there was no biography of Ali, published by any Western academic press, even other presses, they're two or three books, most of these are translations. And Ali's biographies are so many in Persian, Arabic, Turkish, Urdu, I have around me about I think 70 or 80 of his biographies in different languages. All terrific but then all written from a Sunni perspective or a Shia perspective or a Sufi perspective. And in the West, luckily, to give credit where do you most publishing houses published biographies of Prophet Muhammad these people in many years, but that's where the conversation stopped. And for an ordinary American and an ordinary person of faith, in a spectrum of the tradition, other than the Prophet of Islam which is extremely important and Ali reflected whatever he learned from the prophet, but there's no more narrative on the pre-KC's office now. Even for instance, I'll mention Rumi, Rumi, you go to any bookstore you'll find Rumi. So few know that for the spiritual mentor of Rumi was Ali. Rumi in all his poetry says again and again that my inspiration and my love and my leader is Ali. So those I thought I have an audience I can reach out to last but not the least, young Muslims. Whether in America or elsewhere. I see a lot of hope in this new generation, because they see the contradictions, they see the divisions, they see the authoritarianism, they see the kind of the adults or Muslims are by large boxed into different groups. And they have a tendency. I learned this from my own daughters, three daughters. I'm very proud and very lucky to have three daughters, 20, 20, two and 24. And they, the questions they would ask always wanted me to think about if you allow me just one anecdote is out of blue coming to my mind. When we moved to Washington DC from New York about 10 years ago, we were living then in McLean. And so my daughter was the youngest one who was born in America who would often ask. She would see always, we are trying to figure out where is the closest mosque, and the closest mosque at that time was like 40 or where we wanted to go was 40 or 50 minute drive. And then outstreet were like three different churches. She would ask, Baba, father, what is the, why people go to church she was like at that time three or four years, or five years. And we would say, people pray to God. And she can one day said that if why we go to a mosque to pray to approach God. And she said so why did right for one hour to go to see God, God is right next year saying the church also as a God. So how do I answer next week we set Sunday we went to the church. So so this is my, my hope that I'll be able to reach out to the my Western audience but also especially young Muslims. And, and, and this is a, you know, really wonderful anecdote and I think you raise your daughters very well to have this sort of open openness to, to others and to, and this curiosity of others as well. I know that they played a great role in helping you shape the pros of this book and I think she did, she did a great job. I want to ask you about the title of the book, the prophets air. It's quite the statement, actually, because this is at the heart of, in essence, the dispute between Sunnis and she has who is the prophets air and if you're, you know, ultra orthodox, Wahhabi, you could look at this title and say, Well, that's quite, you know, the position you're taken in we, you know, we, we, we don't agree with with that title. What is your response to that. Very important question. And indeed, some Sunni friends as well as sheer friends had issues, which some of the sheer thought this will box my narrative. And let me say it, but maybe proactively, I think actually this is the most unifying title that I think of. And actually I give please some credit to my editor, Heather McKellan for this. The reason I say this is that I am taking a different position in the book, I'm arguing that Ali, the disappoints since there are three ways you look at air, legal air, Sunnis and she has are together in this that legal air was Ali he was a son in law he buried the son, he was taking care of everything because he was the closest relative. Spiritual air. She has been so means have a common view that the spiritual air or the spiritual legacy of the prophet came from from Ali there's a majority of Sunnis who believe that Sufis of course are leading that back. The dispute is about the political being political air that she has say he was so many say so many also say he was political was profits air, but they say he came number four rather than number one. So, two out of three categories, Ali is is it. And then what argument I'm making is, this is a way out also of the sheer Sunni crisis so to say that if both the groups believe that Ali was the spiritual air by spiritual air I mean the his reflections teachings representations are the one which which give us an insight into the real essence of Islam. If she isn't so means agree to that, then that's a great way to come together, keep the political aside for a second. Where the reality is, Ali was not the political successor because or he was, he became political successor at number four. So that's the reality the she has need to also really be clear about it. The Sunnis are right. The first three caliphs were 123. So I thought by bringing Ali as I'm not saying Ali, the profits political air. I'm not saying the spiritual air but I'm keeping it open. Bringing the shares and so means together on one platform that he was the profit spiritual air. That's in that way, they will look more into his teachings, which bring people together which are talking about tolerance which are talking about selflessness, all the good things that we talk about. So that that was the angle that I took. Did you find it hard to be objective because reading the book, you know you paint the image of quite an exalted figure. He seems to have no faults. Is that so. Did you, did you struggle to be objective what what do you, how would you judge what you have put down on the page in terms of how you're presenting Ali. That's a very important point he was a human being. And he, like all human beings he went through all the struggles, especially those 25 years when the other three caliphs who were also very important Muslim leaders and close companions of the profit. At the time that Ali was at times he was sidelined at times he was isolated at other times he was very active to play a role, and he saw all the divisiveness and all the challenges and and I think he himself he said, one of his most famous quotes is that I learned about life through my changes in my own ideas and opinions and by my my ambitions not coming to reality. So of course he had those and I remember my conversation with my editor early on, and she had said, we understand somebody who's writing a biography is very fond of that person in most cases. So, so, and I wanted it to be a short crisp work. In many areas, I have challenged the accepted notions both among the share in the Sunni, which which explain some of the challenges and some of the things that he had gone through. And because because I had to bring those positive facts into light, which allow the sheer and so many to come together, I had limited space to operate. And then I had to emphasize that his role as the patron saint of Islam, which means he was a Sufi master. That's how they was little space to even cover all his best things, or all his attributes, but it's not to say that he didn't struggle or they were not issues that he himself challenged his own position, and at times changed his policy, which was a reflection of how his own worldview or his own approach changed over the period of time. What did you discover? Or did you discover anything while you were doing your research that you did not know or that surprised you? Where did you go for the literature, the sources to get, you know, this balanced or to try to get this balanced reading of this person? You know, Sunni literature or Shi'a literature or combination of both. Did you find a lot about Ali in Sunni literature? Excellent question. In fact, I think 70 to 80% of my sources are all Sunni sources. And probably I was thinking early on because of the title, and also my name, which is in the Muslim tradition, people would guess quickly, although it's Hassan and Hussein Abbas are all names that are celebrated in Muslim history. A typical Hassan Abbas name is more likelihood that a person is Shi'a. So I was conscious of this at times. And I made a claim early on in the book that I will not mention any major fact which is not substantiated by both Sunni and Shi'a. And I think that's why it took me five or six years. I had to go through every source, even on most accepted facts. I had to end statements. Like for instance, the prophet had said Ali is to me what Aaron was to Moses. There were so many references I found it in every Sunni book. And I mentioned because I knew people would immediately say what is the reference. And so far I have given like book talks to about eight or nine major Islamic centers in US and elsewhere, in the last about 20 days. And no one challenged that and to my pleasant delight, because that was all the hard work that had gone into it. The new discovery was ranging from, in fact, I realized that Sunnis and Shi'as have so much commonality when it comes to Ali. That it amazed me and it kind of was painful. Neither Shi'as are reading Sunni books, it appears to me, nor Sunnis are reading Shi'a books. And that was not the case historically. This is the new world, the post. Yes, if I may interject, this was not the case probably even, you know, not that long ago we're not talking hundreds of years ago we're talking just a couple of decades maybe. I agree. I agree entirely in actually the best book on Ali which is when I went to Najaf the shrine of Ali, maybe the book that the shrine presented me and it might be of interesting fact for you. It was it was by Lebanese Christian, George Jodak, his book, which is right next to me, the voice, the voice of human justice. So those, those books were easily accessible, but I, one other thing that I learned was, and this was by chance when I went to Turkmenistan. And this was an official trip. And I mentioned to them that I'm writing a book on pilgrimage which is my larger project with the America. And they said there's a small town by the name of Hazrat Ali. So I went to that town and I found three small beautiful mosques. And when I interviewed people there, because a lot of work of this book was oral history. The people said, we believe that Ali came here and lived here for over a decade. Now I, there was no mention of that in any book anywhere. I went to religious scholars afterwards and said, I've interviewed people, they have actually a grave of Ali's horse as well. And there's a place where Ali used to meditate and people remember him, people go and do a pilgrimage of that place in Turkmenistan. And the Shia scholars also said to me, well, this is not in our books. Well, maybe it's not that everything is in your books. There are such stories. I added those, those were new. It amazed me how the Bakhtashis in Albania, those believers of Rumi or Sufis in Konya or elsewhere in actually you, United States. When I was looking for these, I found a couple of groups with beautiful mosques Sufi tradition. And by the way, Sufis are not a separate sect Sufis mostly are either Shia or Sunni. The kind of reverence and love for Ali in poetry, in music, in writing amazed me and it was beyond those labels. And I thought that needs to be brought out. And so that that that's what was new in a sense. You mentioned the word, you just mentioned the word labels and it definitely feels to me also growing up in Lebanon and traveling to countries like Pakistan and then writing my own book about how Saudi Arabia and Iran used sectarian identities and weaponize them since 1979 in their geopolitical battle that they are very much labels, their political tools. I mean, obviously their identities Sunni and Shias have those identities within them, but they are their labels and they're, they're being used as geopolitical tools today. So, how do you see it. I agree almost entirely and not that you're interviewing me and that's why I'm saying your book has brought this fact out in a very not only accessible fashion but in a very fair manner. I encourage people to read the book also your book also the for the reason being that it provides that whole worldview and that whole reality. My work focus was to go deeper and I found the same trend historically Baghdad, for example, Baghdad was where all major Sunni and Shia jurists, like we used the word she and Sunni, but in fact within the Sunni they are four schools of jurisprudence. Jafari Maliki and humbly among the Shias Jafari school. The leaders of all these would work together teach together. In fact, three of the four Sunni grant that jurists were students of Jafari Sadik, the Shia Sixth Imam, who's who was grand, great grandson of Ali, as well as great grandson of Abu Bakr the first So he brought together and his teachings led to a lot of jurisprudence in schools of thought. So historically, people were very proud of their differences. People were very proud of their identities I should say, but these were not identities that were clashing with each other. Shias as a political group were oppressed. They went through challenging times because they were a minority. Almost throughout the history. However, as you rightly said, this new and we have used excellent word the way these identities have been weaponized are very current in terms of geopolitics. This is oil revenues. This is Wahhabism. This is extremists among the Shia who for their own expansionist reasons and their own attempt to control the narratives. This is this I used to call it a political economy of religious extremism, all the religious mother cells and you go to Pakistan you go to Indonesia. These are associated with certain schools of thought they get money from for those schools and people are their whole economies are linked to those sex so they can't come out of it. It is a political game that has been treacherous. This has done more damage to the spirit of religion than anything else. There's more damage of course also to the spirit and the personality and the image that people can have of Ali ibn Abi Talib if they're Sunni or or or if you're Shia how you look at how you look at your Sunni core religionaries and you write in your book if Muslims found it within themselves to focus on their common appreciation of Ali. The Muslim world could be changed forever. Explain this a little bit more we talked about it a little bit already in terms of the commonality and how both revere Ali ibn Abi Talib as at least the spiritual air of the prophet. How could this this common ground this common appreciation help bridge some of the current divides how could it change the Muslim world and what should policymakers in Washington take away from this conversation since you're since you're sitting in Washington. I mean one way in which that can happen is that once those those biases will go away then people will open up more to his teachings and for instance, I would argue that some of his works on justice. It's amazing how detailed are his words his book is called. Which explains details of what a jurist would be which explains in detail how the minorities in a Muslim society would be dealt with in terms of taxation financial issues. It was amazing in fact I tested it in my class a couple of times. I mentioned some of his quotes and said to my students, who do you think I'm quoting and they said, seems like Thomas Jefferson. This would say another thing, and people have what they have forgotten within the Muslim tradition that because of their the sectarianism, they lost touch with the teachings and spirituality of our. And that's, I argue that they as soon as they'll come to it to be requented. They will be amazed one more fact was the two people. Ali had faced what one was a group called Karajah. This was the first terrorist group in Islam. All modern. Playing on Karajah, it comes from the Arabic of Karajah, which means to exit. Thank you so much. Absolutely. And these were those were challenged Ali. They were very rigid. They were doing what we call that we means declaring the other as non Muslim for to simplify. This was a group which believed in violence. And Ali had fought them very strongly and had mentioned at that time that this seed is unfortunately going to grow. And the other two was there was another Muslim important figure. Some some river him aware him. Mojave of me. So if you are who became the caliph of leader after Ali, who reflected all that was a criterion, all that was greed for power, all that was corruption. Who's the founder of the omayets. This is now I'm getting into an area which is a bit sensitive. But the way Ali challenged him through a discourse through letters through through a conversation. That was in itself a message that okay, let's talk on these issues. What is all this means for policymakers today in the United States are two or three things that come to my mind. One, that this offers other than a way to understand the historical context of Islam, and also to see the spirituality and the beauty of religious experience. It allows for a conversation. It allows an opening for interfaith dialogue. When Pope Francis went to Iraq recently and the way he walked up to it was the way they were holding hands. I think that was a very powerful moment. I really hope that that will be replicated among Christians and Muslims among sheers and Sunni. And it's absolutely possible I am very convinced. And again, a one minute anecdote I promise I know we have to go to Q&A. I was in a synagogue in New York, some years ago. They invited me to talk about Muslim Jewish relations. And before that they said we have a prayer. And I sat on the side. When the prayer happened, and I started listening to the English translation for after the everyone. And I seriously thought that maybe they have been very kind to me. They have picked a Muslim prayer just to because I'm going to speak and later on I asked, I said, so I know this prayer. They said, so do you read? Do you need Torah? No, they said it's a prayer from Torah. And I said to them, you know, I bet this is a prayer that at least 70 to 80% of prayer that I do in Dwai Komel. Actually, that's Ali's prayer. And they said, no, this is an I was really stunned. How much little Muslims know about Jewish prayers and maybe little the Jews know about Muslim pairs. So there's so much around us these commonality among different faiths. And in this world of polarization, we have our own religious figures. It's not about I'm not trying to kind of proselytize or that that's not the purpose. The point is, stay who you are, but have some empathy, have some compassion, try to understand the other. Don't look everyone else in this case for the policymakers, the Muslims as the other. That that's also a message for the policy. A very important message for for everyone everywhere. These days in this age of polarization and I love that you see Ali as this sort of hero that could inspire a more empathetic approach to interface relations. We're going to go to Q&A in a moment, but I have one last question for you, Hasan. This is a very important book. I know you've had quite a lot of events already. You've had, I think you told me you've had praise from both Sunnis and Shias, but also hate mail from Sunnis and Shias. And I'm just wondering about translations. If you're hoping and planning if you already know whether the book would be translated into Arabic into Urdu and other, you know, other languages and what your hopes are for translations. I really hope it will be translated into Spanish into Arabic. Initially I thought that the Arabs know it, all this, but apparently not really because of all the conflict and all the, all the differences, but the first offer for translation came from Iraq from a friend. And the first event was also in Iraq, which really pleasantly surprised me. But also there are challenges. For example, from one country, I name it, I love Pakistan. Of course I am originally from Pakistan. I'm a proud American of Pakistani heritage, but I was told that publishers are not, have decided not to import the book because they think the title is blasphemous. And I said, what, what is the blasphemy on the title? They said there's a picture of, I wish I could have shown you, I'm sure the book is on the website. So it's not showing the face features. In Iraq, in Iran, everywhere you go in Lebanon, among the Shia especially, the features are always shown. And so this is, they said this, then they read it, they said the book is good, the agents and they said, but we cannot have it in bookstores because it will lead to a challenge that we are not being sensitive to Muslim sensibility. So in certain cases, I'm using Pakistan's case just to explain some of the bigotry, biases, ignorance, arrogance at times has come in the way. So I'm really hope I'll be able to overcome. And they said, you're welcome, republish it without the cover and we can take it. That's the cover it's going to say people will buy it from Amazon elsewhere. If I could, I'd buy books and distribute freely in Pakistan, but that those are the kind of challenge. Yeah. Well, there is one of the someone in the audience who's actually the consul the honorary consul general of Pakistan in Boston. And he sent a little message saying good work Hassan, I learned quite a bit. So, you know, hopefully your book will make it into Pakistan. I think it's an important book. We have one question from Zuleka Hussein, who asks you something a bit similar to what I asked earlier in the conversation. What was an instance you found from history, that if Sunnis or Shahs knew of today, they would be shocked that their current narratives of each other are wrong. So what did you find that is different than what Sunnis and Shahs believe of their own narrative. I think if I'll go. Talk about both the Shi'a and Sunnis. I think if she would really know how tolerant was Ali during the times of the first three caliphs, they would rethink, because Ali never fought. Ali was trusted so much by second caliph Omar, for example, who had expanded the frontiers of Islam, there was some controversies as well, which which which are linked to the Islam expansionism, however, Caliph Omar knew very well, Ali's belief and Ali's claim that it was his right to be a caliph. But whenever Omar will go anywhere across for his campaigns, he would a couple of times at least he left Ali in charge of the base because he knew Ali can be anything but Ali is not going to stab him in the back that Ali is not the one who will can't be trusted. So the Sunnis also when they would know that, for instance, there's one famous statement called Hadi is the most important event in the Sunni Muslims at times the challenge it. And I found it that it was it has the highest number of references from Sunni sources 110 companions of the Prophet quoted it and the statement was the Prophet Muhammad peace be upon him it said, whoever thinks that I am his master should think of Ali as the master. She has say this was enough to see him as the heir to the Prophet. The Sunnis also believe in it in a very strong fashion. If more Sunnis know how strong is this narration, how strong is the evidence from Sunni books, I think Sunnis would be shocked. If Sunnis read some of their own books, they will be shocked to know how central Ali was and for the sheers at times, because of their love for Ali they have built walls around them. They try to dominate and own Ali. No one should be should try to own Ali. And that has been one of the issues. There's one great question from Alan Luxenberg who asks, are there any major differences between the Prophet Muhammad and Ali in terms of their outlook on life and their day to day lives. No, I think this was Ali, if anything, was a true reflection of the Prophet and why I argue that, because there were in many traditions within the sheen a smiley tradition. Among the smiley sheers, a very important part of the sheer tradition, many others as well, Zaidis in Yemen elsewhere, some of the Sufi groups as well. Some of the Alawites in Syria and Lebanon in those parts of the world who gave much more to Ali than the references would indicate in some cases, which raised the Sunni challenge by saying that sheers or some of those Sufi groups are building Ali as parallel to the Prophet, which becomes an extremely problematic and divisive. So, and I ignored all those references which would give say things about Ali which are not substantiated by historical facts, maybe in a spiritual sense. People have not realized fully what Ali was, but an Ali himself had said, his actually most famous quote was, he said two kind of people will be destroyed as it relates to him, those who exaggerate his status and those who underestimate him. So, so that that's how I would friend. I have a question from Steve France, a very important one picking up on what you just said a little bit. How important is it to weigh the nature of Ali's death, and the way in which the traditions have handled that shocking death because of course he was assassinated. And by a Kharejite, we just talked about them, you know, the sort of the ancient or the, you know, the precursors to extremism or that seed that was there already at the beginning. So how important is it to look at how Ali died and how the tradition reflects that today. Thank you for the question extremely important in fact this reminds me of the larger tragedy, not only that he was assassinated and in the mosque in modern prayers when he he was in prostration. Also that his grave had to be kept a secret for 125 years. And I say this to most of my Sunni friends and brothers and sisters. Just think about it. Ali was the fourth caliph forget he was the first Imam of the she has, he was so close to the Prophet he was part of the family of the Prophet. There are more statements and Sunni sources about Ali then all together about the first three caliphs, who also always believed Ali to be superior to them, in many cases, it's spiritual terms specially. Why Ali's grave had to be kept in Najaf secret for over 100 years. Because the fear was that his enemies would come and take out his body and disgrace. That is a very strong thing and this is a consensus among the she and so me and that's what happened. The challenges, the counter-revolution to Islam had happened at that time. And Muslims, some Muslims in an effort to bring everyone together in trying to attempt or cover up what the Umayyads had done, what the Abbasids had done, those are not divinely oriented people. Those were pure politicians, some of them who were very corrupt, very extremist. The way they expanded the frontiers of Islam was through violence. I mean Muslims have to come to accept some of those realities among and those were the ones for whom Ali's message of tolerance, Ali's message of spirituality was something that they wanted to stay away from. Because they were worldly players who wanted empire building. Those empire builders, for them Islam's message and especially Ali's message of spirituality and tolerance and selflessness was a challenge. So that's why the death of Ali in fact was the point from where the counter-revolution to Islam became very, very strong. And that's often in all politics and in all Shia Sunni polemics, this point is missed. Sorry, I can't hear anything. We have a question from Pinky Verani who picks up on some of what we've already been discussing that Sunnis, the way she, I'm phrasing, I'm reading her question the way she phrased it, Sunnis don't believe in Hazrat Ali because of several reasons. So, you know, you've addressed some of it already. You know, how do you think you can convince Sunnis of his importance? You've mentioned some ways already about the common ground about how he is revered. But how difficult is it you think to reach a Sunni audience with this message? In fact, one of my findings from this book is that Sunnis believe in Ali almost as much as she has to. I'm very honestly I think of this. I encourage the questionnaire to read the book and also look at the sources. She should feel free to send me an email and I'll scan it or send the sources to her. It is all embedded in the Sunni sources. It is the modern, what Sunnis need to understand also she has in some way that the degeneration of religious political thought has become a big issue. The way the modern madrasas and religious seminaries have built up. They are in unfortunately more than the Sunni side, which have become very politicized, which have become very sectarian and not all Sunnis. I think a majority of Sunnis for instance those who believe in the Sufi tradition. Those in South Asia who believe in the Barelvi tradition. Barelvi was a person, this is a tradition from India, a way which are more Sufi oriented. You'll be amazed the commonality of view between the Barelvi Sunni Muslims and the Shias and the Sufis. So we need to look, read their own sources. I had figured out in this process, neither she has read their own historical references nor Sunnis. So Sunnis will be amazed when they'll read history and well they will try to step a little bit out of what is the comfort zone. But everyone wants to stay in the very, very comfortable zone and being politically correct. But let me push you a little bit more on this question. Academically let's say or theologically yes, it might be right. It might be correct that Sunnis believe and revere Ali as much as Shias. But today in today's world, how can you put this message across in a way that as you very ambitiously write in your own book could change the Muslim world? I think and it is by by interacting more with among more interaction and among the Shias and the Sunnis. And I say with some pain and I'm guessing from Boston, it is must be very often the Pakistan's honorary consul general. A person I love and I admire and my great dear friend, he has been Pakistan's honorary consul general I think for the last 30 or 40 years. One of my other heroes in this life, an amazing person, a person who brought with his Jewish faith, explained it to so many Pakistanis that a person of Jewish faith can be such a great friend of Muslims. I think in his own work, there's a big message. While admiring him, I forgot part of the question, but for the Shias and Sunnis, I think they have to start visiting. I was thinking of Boston and I know some of my friends from Boston are there as well, because of my broader family which had more Shias as well as Sunnis. I was amazed that in Boston as well as in New York, the Shia mosques and the Sunni mosques operate in very different zones. And this challenges the sweeping some of the narrations, not because they are always against each other, just because of the way some of the social things have developed. They don't go to each other's religious gatherings. And socially, yes, they meet often and there's no, I mean less biases, especially in America. And that's why the book in US is important from my point of view, because there's more openness we have. I'm not expecting that anyone can come and attack me or hopefully not. I'm thinking of comparing it with other countries where we're such extremists are strong. So Shias and Sunnis have to talk to each other more. Scholarship that has to take place. And these are the two ways that they will be amazed at the office and also by going to the roots of their own religious experience. That has it has become too politicized. It has become too Iran versus Saudi Arabia in a discourse. It has to come out of that and go to what the prophet had taught that that's I think it's a broad statement I'm making, but I am very confident. That any she and Sunni who will start reading their own materials will be amazed at the range of commonalities that exist. And there has to be an openness. That's why I have more hope from young Muslims who are not as stuck with their identities as their parents are. Absolutely, I fully agree with you. I mean today surveys show that in the Arab and Muslim world, young, the young generation feels that religion has played too big a role for too long and they'd like to move on from that. We have time for two last quick questions. One from Sadik Awainati. He says you explained very well, Ali's spiritualism. Can you tell us briefly about his dealing with administration as being the caliph and the head of state so to speak. Absolutely this reminds I hope I can quickly find one statement from Ali when he became the caliph and his first statement was. Ali said, I know the time is running away. So I'll try to remember and paraphrase it. What Ali said as soon as he became caliph, he said, I have some rights on you which are equal to what rights you have over me. So he decided not to move into a palace, there was a palace. So he was a person who was down to earth, who argued that on the very first day, and that's where some of the she has many differences come as well. He said, I will take away all privileges from the elites, the elites would build palaces because Islam had expanded a lot of money had come into the time of the third caliph and the second caliph, and the new elite was built up. He challenged them that's why he faced such severe backlash and challenge. So Ali's system of government was egalitarian was based on justice. He went into so many details on why equality and rights of minorities are extremely, extremely important. That's what his was defined by his by by by his worldview by his politics. So that that's I would emphasize and that's why the challenge came. Otherwise, it was not sectarian per se that people had challenged him because of his spirituality or something he was saying in terms of Islam. His policies about administrative policies of equality and taking away privileges was something which got him into a difficult point and that many Muslims don't want to go that route and they because they say, Oh, it is, he had challenged the elites who were closer to the first three caliphs. Oh, that is sectarianism. That is not sectarianism that is history. And we need to be open to history. So to wrap the conversation, so we have a question from Jay Zayti asks, you know, briefly, we only have a couple of minutes left, what are the key takeaways, you think that people should take from from this book as Muslims or as as non Muslims if you want to give us you know one or two key takeaways. I talked about many of those the key takeaways are number one to focus first and foremost on the spirituality and and by spirituality I means that looking at everyone from the same lens through through through equality and not have any biases when and not to judge people. Did this, whether it's somebody within the Muslim tradition or outside and that's the equally. I'm making the point for my Christian Jewish friends and Hindu and Buddhist friends did this. We judge the others by by by our own norms. I think my final conclusion is, it was amazing for me how universal was at least personality. His, his message is relevant to the modern day world that's why I argue, Ali's legacy is so central for the future of Islam and Islam's relationship with the West. I think my Western audience will be amazed at how much they will find common of what Moses had said to what Jesus had said to what Prophet Muhammad had said to what Ali followed that that message of spirituality which has universal values embedded in it. I think that that's the key message. And that's a wonderful way to end this really fascinating conversation with this key takeaway about the universality of values and you know how we can build common ground not only between Sunnis and Shias but between the different faith. Hassan Abbas, thank you so much for writing this book for asking me to be in conversation with you to launch it at New America Foundation. Thank you to New America Foundation for hosting, for hosting us and thank you to all of you in the audience for tuning in. Thank you very much. That's it for us, signing off from Beirut and from DC.