 How does one get scratched in the face by a turkey when you give us the wall? I wasn't asked that I in the process of just what I do with when I did No Do you know I can't remember I might I may have made alibi Well, I Do I need an alibi? Hey, it's dr. Phil here if you're smart you will subscribe to the behavior panel all right There we go I'm Scott Rouse my body language expert and analyst and I train law enforcement in the military and interrogation in the body language And I created the number one online body language course body language tactics comm with Greg Hartley work I'm Mark Bowden. I'm an expert in human behavior and body language I help people all over the world to stand out win trust and gain credibility Every time they communicate including some of the leaders of the G7 chase Hey, I'm Chase Hughes did 20 years in the US military I'm number one best-selling author of four books on behavior profiling body language analysis persuasion and influence I train intelligence operatives and to the general public you can find out more about those courses at chase use comm Greg Greg Hartley former Army interrogator interrogation instructor resistance to interrogation instructor written 10 books on body language and behavior put together this number one body language tactics at body language tactics comm course with Scott And I spend most of my time on Wall Street or corporate America Excellent. All right. Well today. We're gonna talk about a guy named Ian Bailey and Ian is accused of murdering a woman in Ireland and I I think he's been found guilty in absentia from what I understand But as we go through these here's what's happening. Here's what's gonna go on We're gonna show you videos and we're gonna tell you what we see in the behavior. We're showing those videos That's all we're doing. We don't care if this guy is innocent. We don't care if this guy is guilty We could not possibly care less and we don't know so we're just telling you what we see and this guy's body language That's it. We're not saying he's guilty or innocent or he did or didn't do it. So that's what we got So Greg gives a little background on the videos Yeah, so There there's several out right now. So if you were to go to Netflix, there's one called Sophie if you go to Sky there's one called murder at the cottage. There was also another one on Irish TV So there are a lot of a lot of there's a lot of interest in this case The woman was named Sophie Tuscan du plantier. I believe and she was a film producer out of France She was on holiday or living part-time in West Cork and she was murdered a couple of days before Christmas This guy was accused. He's been in court a couple of times He's been arrested a couple of times in March gonna give you more the details of the case But it's a pretty horrific case for a place that has not had that kind of crime in memory So it became a very hot topic. It's all over the place right now the original for me the original genesis of looking with someone direct message me on Twitter and said look at this case and Of course Scott's wife and my wife are both like, yeah, look at that case. So here we go Mark you want to talk about the legal issues and what's going on? Yeah, so here are the facts 2019 in Bailey is convicted in absentia means he wasn't there for the court appearance It was the French criminal courts and he was convicted of voluntary homicide according to the French he is He committed voluntary homicide and he's he has a 25-year sentence He couldn't be extradited because the High Court of Ireland overturned that extradition for a whole bunch of convoluted reasons None of those reasons being that they thought he was or was not Guilty or innocent had nothing to do with that. So the French courts as far as they're concerned. He is on the run Right now. He's a fugitive right now. He in Bailey maintains his innocence around that. These are the facts as I understand it All right. All right. There's a little background background for you And you guys ready? Yeah. Yep. Here we go You would be happy to surrender yourself to the Irish authorities to stamp trial in this country I would welcome it. I mean, it seems like a very strange thing to for an individual to be saying I would welcome it Try me for murder. Absolutely All right Mark what do you got? Yeah, so it feels to me from what I'm seeing from his eyes that these the idea of these questions are not new for him I think he's prepared for this. He's very direct with his eye contact throughout his answering So I think he's kind of practiced these answers He's very controlled about those answers. However, his breathing rate is actually quite high So he comes across pretty confident around this breathing says to me There's a little edge of anxiety a little edge of nerves Almost panic around this Uh now confident around welcoming some kind of trial I don't know whether you've any spent any time in a in a court. Certainly. I've spent some time in courts You want to avoid them at all costs? There's nothing nice about it. There's nothing good about about being in a in a court I would say so that he's welcoming this idea of hey, you know, put me up for murder. I'll go for it It's kind of an odd stance Uh to take I would say so it feels very confident Breathing patterns says something else and he's got an an odd attitude about going to court I would say inviting it in I don't quite get that Uh chase. What do you got for me? Totally agree with you mark and One of the things that we see that deviates from his baseline and there are some great video of truthful baseline of him on the internet, which I've reviewed today One of the things that deviates a lot is immediate mouth closure after a statement So he makes a statement and the lips immediately shut down, which is uncommon to begin with but it's very uncommon versus his baseline And a blink rate goes down to a zero while he's answering the question And our blink rate pretty much drops drastically in response to Valuable things that we find interesting and things that are potentially threatening to our life So what we see here is focus. We're focused on valuable things. We're focused on threats So focus lowers how often we blink And we see that here His breathing rate is up to 45 in this mark you noted that And just to give you an idea normal breathing rate is probably below 18 and this is per minute And he's breathing into his chest not his abdomen if you ever watch a baby sleeping You'll see the belly that rises and falls any human sleeping Because that's what we do when we're relaxed when we know that there's there's not a potential threat Granted, of course, there's somebody questioning him Is somebody questioning me for a murder that I didn't do I would still feel stressed So please keep that in mind And he had a small head shake And this is different than a negation versus confirmation head shake. So when someone says I loved working there I didn't take any of that money So they know that they're going to finish with a negation But when it's just a positive statement with a no head shake that becomes a red flag for me The right side upward shoulder creep toward the end there. I thought that was interesting It's it's only a two according to my research on the on the behavioral table of elements But that's just kind of I think this part of the body protecting an artery Which is a sign of potential fear there His score according to the behavioral table of elements is an 18 And you need a score of 11 or higher to be likely deceptive Greg what do you got? So I'm going to go a little differently But all the same things you guys said how they all tie together. First of all, this guy is self-aggrandizing is my guest mark He's saying yeah, I would welcome it and people don't usually do that when we think about maslow Maslow says we need to belong and then we create a steam. Well, this guy's trying to create a steam by saying People wouldn't usually do that has nothing to do whether he's guilty or innocent. It simply says look at me Here's who I am. I can see it in him. I can see it in his face He's doing the what scott and I call the romance or in the true crime thing where he's making solid eye contact Chase to your point and so his eyes are open. There's no blink rate. He's paying attention. He's looking exactly what you do He goes into this hole. I'm different But when he says I would welcome it absolutely Watch what he does watch blink rate go up just a bit his respiration goes up And then he does that that quick eye block And does the shake head no as he's saying absolutely that all together is a cluster of behaviors And like chase said he gives him an 18 I just give him a target on his forehead because he just did that and he's in a bind now The last thing I would say if iron tear getting this guy I would just bond him down to make him into an average guy because I would just say yeah Yeah, I know you're really cool and all that to me You look like an out-of-work writer and and just push him down and watch what you get So that's what I see scott. What do you got? All right? Yeah I think I agree with you mark. We're seeing a little bit of panic in there because he starts answering before the questions even finished being asked He's waiting to get that thing out. That's when he's preloaded. I don't think he said it out loud before because the the Delivery is a little bit odd. It's a little bit off at that point. Also. I think that quick shoulder pop is just an expenditure of energy He's he's he's all geared up and things are starting starting to tighten up. He's breathing heavy And he's doing that. It's not because some shoulder thing goes off. I think he doesn't know what to do He's trying to control himself So that that's what I think that's about and the whole time this whole answer in this whole video. He blinks two times That's it. That's pretty low You know, but again when somebody's asking you questions like that Your brain says we got to keep an eye on this guy and our girl and make sure that they're They don't suspect us. I got to see what's happening and get this whole question, right? So that's one of the that's one of the reasons that the desires are so locked in like that. He's not blinking a whole lot Again that word absolutely Seems always pop up when we're talking about somebody being murdered and they're talking about how they didn't do it They say absolutely not. I would say just just an odd word to I never use the word absolutely I absolutely never use it But uh, but it's odd when it comes up in those in those spots seems like most every time And you guys covered everything else. All right, we good One thing I did leave out if I were going to be in front of an audience and I'm worried about fight or flight I would pick a different tie not something that draws your eyes because you can see his respiration, right? Yeah And just put this heart pounding so yeah, but as smart as he thinks he is I don't think he can I don't think he would Think that way, you know We won't get into the intercedes of that You well All right, here we go You would be happy to surrender yourself to the irish authorities to stand trial in this country. I would welcome it I mean, it seems like a very strange thing to for an individual to be saying I would welcome it Try me for murder. Absolutely At first he'd said he'd slept all night then he said he got up in the middle of the night to write I had a story deadline for the monday morning I'd part written the story and I'd researched it but I hadn't finished it at some point during the night I left the bed came down to the kitchen table. I know hand wrote the story So and then I went back to bed All right, greg. What do you got? So there's one screaming glaring thing here that we talk about all the time And I think joe navarro came up with it first and schaefer jack schaefer joe navarro and they called it verbal bridging and then You never ever leave that alone if a person says and then you go hold on a second Do the colombo thing and back track them a little bit do a backward timeline The other thing that is interesting here and there's not body language We're not looking at body language The other piece that's interesting here is too much detail but not Not the chaff and redirect kind what I call predictive storytelling I'm only going to tell you what I think I need to tell you to get my point across And I'm going to think about the reasons why I would go down there and do it And so he's he's got a why he's got a what he did I had handwritten it the night before well that when you say I'd handwritten it That's because his typewriter is somewhere else and he couldn't say I had done it I'd typewritten something so he's giving you information that's pertinent to him getting His story that he did it while he was there and then went back to bed for me. That's a red flag Doesn't mean he's lying but that and then is always an opportunity for somebody to hide something It's just the way it is chase, what do you got? Absolutely agree with you I think there is some unusual Stuff going on here and I think this is a great clip That you picked Greg that that shows that we have to do a statement analysis here There's no there's no body language. There's no behavior. We get a chance not just to an analyzer, but to teach you What we're seeing so to speak in this clip I think when he says at some point I left the bed no one even Weird English people like Mark would say I left the bed. We would say I got out of bed. I got out of bed Left the bed is a statement you would expect to hear from a witness from another person And that is an unusual thing. We're hearing something that belongs to Another person or that is desired to be said by another person And this suggests an alibi creation And he's telling it from another POV a little bit and in all likelihood it was I slept through the night Then it was I got up for 30 minutes and then it was I think well over nine hours that that he was missing so that's Interesting and there's there's hiding some time in there like just like Greg said absolutely agree with you there Just did this and then I went back to bed Scott Yeah, I think I think the verbal bridging there is as a like you were saying Greg classic man. I mean that's great That should be used in examples To give that as an example that it's perfect. It's perfect because someone if you say So you went if you even if you talk to someone who was who's been stealing candy from a store You know your kid or somebody else who says what do you do? Well, I didn't do I didn't do it It wasn't me we were to I was at the potato chips went over to the Batteries and and then after that I went over to the candy thing. I looked at it and then we left Really so what that there's so many and thens and thens all these little places where you go back and you say like you were saying earlier Greg let me call this micro interrogations little micro interviews You get into that and then you talk about everything that happened between when this happened and then that happened that little bridge of stuff right there It's this one is incredible and it's so when you smell And you know it this is one that tells you that automatically That's that gut feeling you get to say something's not right here. That's one of those triggers that fire that off So that's all that's all I'll say about it. You guys have covered most of it mark. What do you got? Yeah, so once you've gone through that verbal bridging as well You get a vocal click at the end of it a little Sound from him which always suggests to me. There's some stress. There's some pressure There's some kind of problem with what was just said there Also, I think he tries to put some stress on Monday morning in order to kind of bridge and take us right through to Monday morning I think there's a stressful idea around, you know, kind of saying there's a deadline involved So so let's really just brush over that because the important thing is the article I was writing for Monday morning Now because he put stress on that word Monday morning We get something of of an accent from him a very different accent and we get in the in the Monday part of it We get his northern accent coming out north of England Accent coming out now. Hang on to that idea because it's important because later on We're going to hear some accent changes from him and and that's kind of interesting I would suggest from personality point of view of what's the kind of person we may well have here Who moves from accent to accent? Uh, you know, what kind of person might we have with those kind of behaviors? But really a great great catch there on the the bridging there Click there just puts the icing on the cake for me. There we go. Yeah I think this is another reason we should have peter hide on here as a guest one time Can you imagine that that'd be great. He would have this would be perfect for him. I think all the all we'd learn from that guy So Yeah At first he'd said he'd slept all night. Then he said he got up in the middle of the night to write I had a story deadline for the Monday morning I part written a story and I'd researched it, but I hadn't finished it at some point during the night I left the bed came down to the kitchen table. I know hand wrote the story So and then I went back to bed Okay How does one get scratched in the face by a turkey when you give us the wall? I wasn't I in in the process of just what I do with when I did Do the turkeys in as it were? I put their feet into a little loop And hung them from a hook in the shed And in doing so as I was trying to get the feet into the help one of the feet I just sort of glanced across the top of my head, but that was not on my face It was in my hairline and it wasn't a particularly Um, it was a light scratch. Yeah, man Oh, I could hog this and go first, but I won't chase. What do you got? I'm gonna I'm just gonna cover these briefly. So I'll I'll say One thing that we see here is a Deviation from baseline like crazy. Now, I'm gonna give you a list of everything that's changed. I'm not gonna tell you what it means I'll let these guys do it, but here's what deviated from his baseline in order speed cadence high movement internal dialogue movement Blink rate and breathing location and speed. That's chest versus abdomen and how fast he's breathing and The increase in speed is a big tell Is one of the biggest tells I've seen in my days. I like how the interviewer the reporter asked the question. How does one Do this instead of how did you it helps to distance? It helps a more honest answer It helps the likelihood that a more honest answer is coming I'm gonna pass it around to everybody here. What's one question or tactic that you would have used In this scenario or any of these scenarios, I would have personally liked to do the punishment question Towards the end of this of what do you think should happen to the person that did this? Especially to his personality type. I think it would respond really well Scott, what would you say? I would be quiet right after that as soon as he finished that I would just keep looking at him And just keep waiting and waiting and waiting Chase I didn't write the words down. I was I was getting ready to write all the words out Ever said, what do you do it? I said, I'm writing all the words. She said chase is gonna do that So you didn't do it I was waiting for you to read them because you usually come on with a lot of written down exactly. Here's what he said And you go off for the word. So I didn't do it because I was informed that I'd be doing it Anyway, uh, greg what do you got? Yeah, so number one my I'm you I'd be silent I would wait because and he does because we'll see it in the next in the next segment But I will say those turkeys can be rough So if I if I I'm gonna go ahead and hop into mine, I guess and then we'll just go around. Yeah, so Cadence first thing I have on there is cadence. This is a guy who prides himself on use of language He stood and delivered poetry in the pub even if people didn't want to hear it So his spoken language is his art. His ability to use language is his art And it suddenly goes away and he turns into what I call worm on a griddle If you turn off the sound and watch him he's Doing all kinds of crazy stuff like he's Glitching and he points to his head He illustrates three times to his head to get the point across But he goes up at this hairline, you know, don't have one But if you watch him, he goes away from that carefully metered language And then he starts going just all over the place and the reason is because he goes into what I always refer to his cat brain He's now in a bind He now has all those stress hormones dumped in and his brain is editing faster than he can speak And so he gets in a real bind If you watch the thing that causes him the most pain is trying to avoid the word kill When he tries to avoid the word kill, you're gonna see all kinds of stuff break loose in him Uh, and then finally as he's telling you the story shakes his head No and turns away if you listen, then you'll hear a pause for after he says After I did the turkeys in he pauses And inhales heavily so there you go watch him. He's a mess Did I make you my dance you got to you? Who's the worm on a griddle dancing? Oh my god, what happened? Oh god Jason because you were starting to start me going Almost got me. I was Not to think of it and then I thought of someone making it into a jiff Don't bother me. I was thinking about how I'm gonna put it at the end of this thing You know how I have that little short thing and it has somebody doing something Yeah, that's where that'd be funny That's right mark. What do you got? Uh, yeah, so it is a beautiful question That is so beautiful in the Irish accent as well. You know, how do you how does one? Get scratched by a turkey Just a beautiful beautiful thing And and what does he come up with? It's a word salad and a gesture stew to go with it because everything is so very Indirect both in his gestures and his words and when he does become direct Then his gestures become repetitious to your point Greg of three times he goes through his head once he's got something direct He's like oh, let me let me show you three times about that. So it's a complete Mess, yeah, I think you know to your idea there Chase of what are good questions in this situation? I think you can as the guys are saying you can go have no question at all go sign and and let them say even more Or ask them for more detail. I might go so how So so what kind of knot do you use when you're hanging up the turkeys? And then again find out again so I can see whether I can get that panic state Again, tell me more about the turkeys go more in depth to see To just increase the rate of of panic and and the gymnastics that the brain is Clearly having to do and that then some point give them an easy question to answer Which is the one that you really want the information on because the brain in a panic once it gets something to hang on to Then it might just start delivering stuff. It wouldn't it didn't think it was going to deliver to you There that's what I got for you on that one all right, well, you remember though the way back in the 30s and 40s those black and white films where they'd have some guy come in and they've thrown a bunch of marbles on the floor And it gets from point a to point b But he's doing all this stuff like greg was doing To get from here to there That's what's happening with this guy when he's telling this when he's telling his story in that he gets ahead of himself He gets back behind himself. He's trying to balance. He's trying to think what I say This is I know I focused on this but this is another case of him Having the idea of what happened in his head without saying it out loud first Perfect example of that so apparently nobody's he's thought of this but hadn't really actually put it out into the world yet So all right be good Yeah, how does one get scratched in the face by a turkey when you give us the wall? I wasn't I in in the process of just what I do with when I did Do the turkey's in as it were? I put their feet into a little loop And hung them from a hook in the shed and in doing so as I was trying to get the feet into the how one of the feet I just sort of glanced across the top of my head, but that was not on my face It was in my hairline and it wasn't a particularly um It was a light scratch If though you got the scratches when you say you did before she was murdered Why then did nobody in the galley pub that night noticed those scratches because I had I had a long sleeve shirt All right mark, what do you got? Yeah, I'll just give you one on this when he says long sleeve shirt Well, I had a long sleeve shirt. He does disgust at the same time. I I would suggest that's him smelling his own lie there smelling his own deceit I would just I will Leave it at that Scott what are you got? All right in in 2014 I called greg and I said, hey man, I just talked to this guy that reminds me of a lizard The whole time I talked to him He looked just like this guy does for about six seconds where he's just sitting there looking He's almost freeze framed and when he blinks it's just that slow Uh shutter speed of a blink and it reminds me of this is the most non blinking guy I've ever seen in my life throughout This whole thing there's not a whole lot of blinking Theoretically there should be a whole lot more and there are some parts but During this there's not a lot of blinking going on But it reminds me of a lizard the way lizards look and that first thing you're out of the gate That was sticking his tongue in his mouth that really weird looking thing. That's what reminded me of that You remember that phone call when I called you Greg and said, hey, man, I think I just talked to the human lizard It's just this is just really abnormal behavior for A normal Human or a normal person this this is odd all the way around And he's frozen because he's waiting again to hear that that question make sure he gets all the information Again, he he jumps the gun a little bit on this guy. So he's he's I think this has got him in a We're seeing his panic being held back But I think his limbic systems kicked in and we're seeing that start to start to ramp up I'm not sure exactly when in the series of videos this showed up But in this one, he doesn't look as panicked as he did a couple back But it's starting to I think I think he's starting to ramp up here chase. What do you got? I absolutely agree with you guys I think there actually is Some good blinking here at the very beginning his blink rates up to about a 50 Just in anticipation of the question and when he starts answering the question it goes down to zero And there's just eyes are locked right on the interviewer to make sure He's conveying the story and originally the scratches on the arms were from the Christmas tree and now Apparently they're turkey scratches again And I think his mouth is open here at the very beginning before he starts to answer We saw the same thing when we were on Dr. Phil's show when we were interviewing a massage therapist on there live on on the stage there This mouth opened forcing oxygen and trying to calm himself down and so we see a lot of indicators of high stress and high Threat recognition before the question is answered greg Yeah, so the first thing I see is distaste that thing you talk about sucking a lemon a little bit mark in the beginning And that single shoulder rise right out the gate Then he goes to romancer that Staring in your eyes and he does a lot of that. He's trying to make sure he doesn't make a mistake There's that mouth grooming thing and his breath his breathing rate is up He does something uncharacteristic again another baseline deviation the same thing we saw in mark castellano as he's validating The question. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. He does it twice Only time you see in this entire interview this by the way I think is right after the turkey allegation So this is all tied together and I see in him then this relief of thank god I got a break and then he goes in and now I'm gonna try to tell you this next part when he does I'm with you chase his blink rate is through the roof for split second Then he does eye lock his blink rate goes down watch his pulse watch his Watch that tie his respiration increases He does that more of that mouth grooming and then his mouth is actually hanging open a bit And if you watch it, you'll see all that apprehension starting to build in his face that brow up Mouth open his apprehension you see it and then suddenly he does this thing where this muscle right here And I think it may be connected to disgust but that muscle draws down And when that muscle draws down that's usually associated with anger And I think of immediately if you poked on him You might get him to come and buckled right here If you started poking on his story even more because that draw down in that burrow is a good indicator That he's feeling a little frustrated at the moment and the disgust is pretty part of that. It's what I got If though you got the scratches when you say you did before she was murdered Why then did nobody in the galley pub that night notice those scratches because I I I I long sleeve shirt Go All right, let's move If they had evidence I wouldn't be here talking to you. I wouldn't have been released Yeah, yeah, well, I know I'm innocent. I have nothing to do with this killing. Did you kill? No, I can't tell if they've cut his volume off the the volume of the uh Guy asking questions at that point. Can you guys tell when he does that extra nod? I could yeah. Oh, um No, I I I presumed it is an extra nod that he's putting in Yeah, but we don't hear that background noise of it. That's that's the part that's completely Yeah, uh, I think so I believe it does Good to see me All right, uh, Greg, what do you got? So I'm not going to put a lot here when I say I am innocent I probably don't string along extra words That's distancing from the answer in interrogation. That's a red flag and we would say why did you say I know I am Nope, I'm innocent. That's there all there is. I had nothing to do with it more words that string you out He's I locked the entire time and that might just be who he is. He's intense I read you know everything I guess red said he was really an intense person He does a little nod at no, but I'm not sure that's not an emphatic and that's all there is It's not really I had nod like this as much as an emphatic You guys may see something different and then he does this whole pushing You know kind of washing your hands move in there. So what's going on his head? Don't know just looks like I would poke on him because he's distancing from the answer and that would be my approach Scott, what do you got? All right, um If you ask that question, you're gonna say more than no It's like it's being no And you're probably gonna go and most of the time the head shake starts no Starts this before you say no Because you're as they're asking you start to know because you're thinking about that question Just like someone's paying attention when you're asking them a question and they're guilty of something You focus on that and you're listening to all of it and you start that head shake No, when before they finish before they finish asking the question and you answer in this case He waits and he says no now that can be an affirming no I agree there and the second one we were just talking about how the the volume may be off on that We can't tell that he said no and then did that again. He made the guy may have asked him something extra I can't we can't really tell on that But I think we're seeing a pattern here of the only emotion we've really seen so far and I agree with you Greg is anger So and and That the combination of anger and just a little bit of panic in there, but here we see no eye no Brown movement no eyebrow movement nothing like that and they're always seen as the one thing and this this delivery of It's not monotone, but it's just odd. It just sounds odd Um, we're not seeing emotion where we should be seeing emotion And that's what that's another thing that sits off red flags for me And that's where you start digging in trying to get that emotion out of and see what's in there If you can't flip them on that because when they're doing that they've got a wall up And you've got a while to get through there and to get to to be able to touch them real good and get them Working around without the without that wall up in other words to get to break the wall down and break through that um Yeah, I think we're looking at at this point I'm gonna I'm gonna I'm gonna say it because I've seen all the videos, but we're looking at a malignant narcissist here and that's Malignant is is is different than like a regular old narcissist, you know, you have different different levels of them This is what I call a clinical narcissist. You have the malignant narcissist Which is right up next to to scooch on in there to psychopathy because they can be dangerous. They can be Uh, really volatile and they're this is but I think I don't think this guy's a psychopath, but I Um, I'd put all my chips on malignant narcissist at this point chase. Where do you go? I agree with everybody here and I think that greg your comment about I know I'm innocent Is it a very different comment than I am innocent? Those are two very different things I can know something and it not be true And I can feel like I know something and it not be true So the one thing that that guilty people start doing the moment after the crime is committed They start internally justifying rationalizing and minimizing what they just did and that process doesn't stop So it gets easier and easier to think back to the day that it happened as time passes by It's a continuous reprocessing that crime as a justified thing And and we're gonna hear we're gonna talk about justification in just a few seconds I think we see again. This is a perfect opportunity to see the rapid mouth closure that we saw in the first video That he did in the denial long ago. I think this is some almost 20 years ago This this video that we're looking at here. So it's a great clip a great choice greg mark Yeah, so I I agree he's doing justification and he's worked out some faulty Skewed logic around this two pieces of logic one is if they had evidence I would not be released. That's that's not logically accurate There could be all kinds of reasons why there would be evidence and you'd still get released So that logic is faulty. Um, also, he's he's he suggests he's innocent because I know I'm innocent You've really covered this chase, but exactly it's it's not logical that just because you know, you're innocent that you are innocent And I only want to bring that up again because we're going to see this faulty logic extended even further Throughout these clips that we've got um Yeah, he's got the very emphatic no has any and then yes, he does then back that up with another emphatic nod I see what you're saying there Scott that there's a question may have been asked looking at it I'm not sure whether we see any recognition of somebody else talking at that point There seems to be a sense of nothing happening and the interviewer just Letting it to see whether he'll he'll you know build on the no And I think you know, I would stake some money on that. That's another emphatic no Uh, which comes across as incongruous in this because it's not needed It was emphatic enough at the start the no was Okay, you know, it's a straight no you don't really need anything else on top of that So that kind of alarms me slightly And this is the point where we get in the younger him this more pronounced Irish accent, especially in that no, it's a way more Irish vowel on the no So we've got somebody who is uh, northern English here, uh, born there We've got this older version of him which has quite a a let's just say middle class Standard received pronunciation English with some uh, northern vowels When under stress and here in the earlier version of him We've got a more Irish Accented version. So we've got somebody who's quite happy to change their accent As to the situation now, we know all of us kind of do that now and again for all kinds of of social Situations, but this is under stress and pressure Uh, you know, that there might be a sense of we've got somebody who's performing A role, you know, which one is him? Who's he trying to perform? What's he trying to perform for what is the result? He's trying to get from these different accents I don't quite know the answers to that, but it's notable and it's interesting that that's what he seems to be doing From my point of view. Yeah, that's all I got on that one All right, uh, let me add something to this and Greg, you may want to add to it as well This week in the comments, we've got a whole lot of people saying you're teaching people how to lie You're telling them what to look out for and stuff. No, we're not There's a lot of stuff we're not saying just so you know, we're not telling you everything we know on here There are a lot of things you don't that we would never say Chase this sounds like he's getting all technical up in there But I promise you he's not telling anything that we shouldn't be telling So the last thing to tell you is okay if we do tell you wait until you meet one of us Because it's going to be your worst nightmare that you know what we're looking for and you can't hide it Because you know a lot of dirty tricks that I mean some of the things that I've used in my career You really don't want to run into that's why I always say if you're accused of something get a lawyer And if you're innocent, especially if you're innocent get a lawyer Because this is not what you think it is that we're not teaching people to get away from the police. Trust us They know a lot. Oh, yeah, that's the last thing we know Yeah, because what well we yeah, because why would you give somebody information that you know You're going to go in and talk to a figure to know what you know Yeah, when you're in front of the police the first thing you're going to do is forget everything we've said Cat brain engage Yeah, so that's why you want a lawyer like the uh crime scene shows teach you how to become a murderer Right exactly exactly Exactly Yeah, we're teaching your facts about how to use body language what we see and how we would approach it But we're also going to and mark you hit a dead on wait the first time somebody is arrested and then I was an interrogator when I went through sear school didn't help me because my little brain was going Uh And then you learn and the whole school gave me the opportunity to bring my thinking brain back online But guys i'm telling you when the first time you meet an interrogator and you've committed a crime The problem is the crime itself chase started by telling you that the crime itself does a lot of the work for us Because humans don't most of us don't go around killing each other and most people when they do it It's going to be an anomaly in their life and it's going to consume them to the point They're not going to be able to hide the information go watch everybody. We're covering some of these are brilliant people I'm sure they just don't look brilliant once they get in front of this if they had evidence I wouldn't be here talking to you. I wouldn't have been released Yeah, yeah, well, I know I'm I'm innocent. I have nothing to do with this killing Did you kill it? No So many people all coming forward and all saying ian bailey one way or another said Surely it's beyond coincidence. Surely there's something there. Well, um The one I they weren't admissions. I was using irony as a tactic orbit. I can see now very unwisely Yeah, man I'll go first on this one Nobody says ironically I killed somebody Nobody does that Nobody does it's never happened before it's never gonna happen. It doesn't happen. What? OJ do it He said he said he said it ironically wrote a book about it I don't think he thought it was ironic though. Yeah, okay except for oj Because he didn't do it So, uh, anyway, so that's that that's what that's that's what I got All right, uh, because I don't know I just can't get past that that part mark. What do you got? Yeah, so maybe irony doesn't mean what he thinks it means maybe He was talking about sarcasm or something else But look here's what he does by doing that. He he elevates himself by going look at my linguistic Skill and linguistic skill is is an elevation. I mean, you know people with linguistic skill Get paid more. Uh, it's a people with a linguistic skill can be quite attractive To to people who they want to attract And so that so he elevates himself. Look, I used irony It's kind of ironic that it probably wasn't irony. It was more likely sarcasm But there we go. That's that's tautological. Isn't it there? How how erudite was that? And so then what he does because he's so erudite and so high Is he lowers himself by going with some modesty going that was probably, you know, not a very good thing to do So he's not only having power over how high he is, but he's then taking power over how low he goes He's completely controlling his status here to the point and that's to the point that many have made here within narcissism Regardless of it might be malignant or some other Status is is clearly massively important and the more you can control Your status and control the status of others That the better off you are as a narcissist. So interesting there now we get We get this lean in we get this listening carefully. Then we get confusion and then innocence There's there's a number of emotions that run through and they all happen too quickly it's like it's like Really, but so I help a lot of animators with with Not necessarily the body language to use but but what is natural for how long an emotion lasts and and and and what would be a pattern or succession of emotions and in bad animation Mainly stuff happens too short too many things happen for too short amount of time And you get these kind of animated things that kind of wobble around and do do lots of kind Stuff and the animator feels like they've really captured the essence of a human being being real But actually it just looks like nonsense and weird because we as human beings are trying to conserve energy all the time So we're trying to do the very least To get away with being alive He's doing the very most possible In order to get away with being alive, which means for me. I'm thinking he's trying to get away with something He's trying to get away with something on purpose. He's acting He's performing a role here badly because he did too many things Too fast. It's too confusing It's too energetic human beings aren't like that. They conserve they do the very minimal Just to get away with it Then that's what I got for you and uh, Greg, what do you go? So we're on the same page. I will say let's first start Maybe he was listening to Alanis Morissette to define his irony. So we'll start there Then the next part is from the side if you'll look at him You'll see his chin is down and his respiration is pretty high when this thing first starts But this is a trip wire for this guy. He's prepared for this question and watch him No other place do I see amusement in his face than this one This is a chance to talk about how smart he is and to go down that path His blink rate begins to to pick up But then he goes to eye lock his eyes open And he's showing genuine interest remember I always talk about energy direction and focus His energy is high His direction is external and his focus is sharp, which means he's interested You see him paying really close attention. He's hanging on his every word until until He gives him the chance to answer the question when he gives him a chance to answer the question Then he goes down this whole path about well, here's what I'm after. Here's here's what happened It was irony. He's trying to show you again how mark till your whole point about language and education And all of that and I think the amusement comes from look I'm smarter than you thought I was and it's self amusement You can see that little light in his eyes and that kind of light up face And then I if I've ever seen anything that I automatically thought might be doopers delight That might be it right there and this guy is arrogant And I see that jump off there when he's doing it Look at that forehead. Look at that billboard when people ask me what's the difference in a quick brow rise And request for approval. I'm telling you something and holding my forehead up. That's request for approval I'm waiting for you to give me the answer he's I can hear it in his mind these people he said this to somebody else in a different interview Um, maybe they weren't just weren't accustomed to dealing a man like me with a certain amount of education That sure bleeds out all over him here. So then what you do is you realize he's falling for his own press He's starting to believe that he's this or that or this or that And we know that narcissism comes from self loathing But you aggrandize to cover up all that so you'd have to go after him and take that down I'll leave mine at that and chase. What do you got? Yeah, I'll just I'll just really quickly paraphrase what what this things really says He says yeah, when I told all those people that I killed her and I was the one that committed the crime And I used those words as tactics. That was probably a bad idea That's a that's a summary of what was just said and if you've ever watched a cartoon We've got a poll from mark a little bit Every villain and every cartoon has one thing in common that the lighting is shown from one side of the face only And always even in even in non cartoons and the lighting from the side lighting from the top lighting from the bottom And I think it's interesting that there was some choice was made to light him from only one side where he almost looks too faced in in this video here and Greg I'm trying to think of something where I can pull a lannis more said in here, but I I can't But I will say when you're talking about Greg and how he's locked in to to Identify what is this a threat? Am I being threatened or not? If you dressed up in like a gorilla costume and snuck into your own house Think about that look your dog's going to give you while it's trying to Trying to size you up. It's exactly the same look as when you're pulling open a bag of Cheetos Just a really sharp focus to analyze exactly what's going on and assess the situation threat and value Those two things very important to all of us animals and I'll leave it at that awesome Mark I got a feeling you're going to be the other end of the little jiggly dance. Yeah, I like the cheetos reference I hope you really like it So many people all coming forward and all saying Ian Bailey one way or another said surely it's beyond coincidence Surely there's something there. Well, um One I they weren't admissions. I was using irony as a tactic albeit. I can See now very unwisely I do really like Violence you can't really contest that can you? No, but it has to be taken in context Is there a context for domestic violence? Well, yeah, there was in my case because I I I was irresponsible with alcohol I was irresponsible with whiskey Uh, Greg, what do you got? Yes, I'm not going to beat this one to death not to Steal the wrong words But what I would say is I would take this guy to a pub and let's see if his logic here's some more that Particular kind of logic does his logic hold up when a bunch of pub boys start beating the hell out of him because That's abuse of alcohol. And so they beat him. That's a good reasonable excuse This is a way to say look and it's trading guilt. You always hear me saying trading guilt. Well, yeah, I was a drunk I beating her was an accident because I was drunk. There's no excuse No excuse for that You can see that he actually knows that it is not excusable because he actually does a little bit of drawing of his mouth When he first starts when he touches his nose, I know everybody's gonna jump to he's lying because he touches his nose This is a convenient barrier It's a way to hide behind his hand is all it is And you know when people touch their nose, it can be because of blood flowing that this is a way to hide behind something Because he's just that guy anybody who will find an excuse for why they beat their wife and say it was inexcusable He made me think of prince andrew when prince andrew said an ordinary shooting weekend He was looking for a reason why he didn't do anything wrong And you can see the disgust in the internal conversation and that's what i'm going to leave it at Take him to a pub and let's see how his logic holds up mark. What do you get? Yeah, I agree an ordinary alcoholic beating just your average one nothing nothing to look at here Yeah, so um, yeah, absolutely so that nosepiece great barrier And when you put that together in a cluster look on its own could be anything I rub my nose a lot because it's like there's pollen in the air around here I don't come from canada. There's stuff in the air here that I wasn't born around my you know Sends me crazy So so rubbing my nose is actually part of my baseline here in canada But for him it doesn't seem part of his baseline. We haven't seen it elsewhere We're not seeing the whole of his life here. It's just a video Some video clips, but we haven't seen it before anywhere else And if we put that together with the blink rate that happens there the disgust that we see as well There's what I think is some internal dialogue as well. He's thinking about what he's talking about while he says it That's quite a cluster for me of someone is going on here that he doesn't even quite buy Himself he's making this up and he doesn't even particularly like what he's making up here Chase, what do you got for us? Agree with every one of you guys on on the nose And speaking of the nose This facial touching and mouth covering scientifically speaking or research speaking have been the number one nonverbal behaviors based on research linked to Nonverbal signs of deception and that's when you get a college kid To sit in front of some guy with a clipboard and lie to him this when the stakes are low behaviors are very different high stakes mean different behaviors Low stakes means like you're not going to get a lollipop. You're not going to get a dollar bill It's it's very hard to measure deception in a laboratory I'll just say that but there is some merit to if someone's touching their face and covering their mouth at the same time there's There's a natural reaction in humans to kind of cover our mouth when something happens the same thing We don't ever teach kids to cover their mouth But if you see a kid accidentally drop the f-bomb in front of their parents for the first time You're going to see that kind of behavior. You're going to see that instinctive reaching up for the mouth So just a good a good data point there And this we see some glabella Flexing there, which is typically associated with dislike And one thing that happens over time I think these people start to soften what happened and we see that he has a habit of softening He didn't he didn't abuse alcohol. He didn't get drunk all the time. He didn't drink too much. He was just irresponsible with alcohol So it wasn't it wasn't a big deal because it was just a smaller less offensive word So we see some what's called severity softening here So we see a lot of red flag data points here. That's all I got All right, is that everybody? No, I'll go so After that question he looks down like a child would look down when they're in trouble because he knows this isn't good for him And that the thing with the glabella there chase I think that's some people say that's a micro expression It's not a micro expression this happens very quickly and it looks to me like in my opinion I would say that's anger we're looking at because that's the that's the except for the the eyes don't you don't see the Why it's the eyes when you're doing that? It's almost like he's been punched and he's and he goes back in anger and comes as the question's hitting him He comes back with that with that face The broken Pete's speech pattern that's like when he got busted before so he's starting that all over again And this is so far. This is the only time he's Accepted responsibility for anything. He does it twice, but this was this is the first time we're seeing it and it's really not Taking the responsibility for it He's just that's just the coward's way out. So what's this guy's doing because he's a coward anybody that does what this guy's Any because he admits beating his wife So he's a coward and he's we all we all have other adjectives we'd like to use in descriptive terms we'd like to use for that guy but That's what we're at that is is Coward at this point and it's the rear. It's the only time he accepts It doesn't accept responsibility But he agrees that he's made a mistake there and that's tough for a narcissist, especially malignant narcissist And like Greg was saying the basis of that is they love themselves They they they know what they are. They hate themselves. So This is this is this this whole thing just rings of malignant narcissist to me All right, is everybody Yep Violence you can't really contest that can you? Uh, no, but it has to be taken in context Is there a context for domestic violence? Well, there was in my case because I I was irresponsible with alcohol I was irresponsible with whiskey The libel trial went into very very personal details from your diaries You wrote in some detail about being sexually very aggressive. You said that you were a monster or beast or something I do you know, I I can't remember. I may have made a reference to my behavior towards jewels that I behaved very badly But that doesn't make me a killer chase. What do you got? Killing somebody makes you a killer. So I could list off hundreds of things that don't make me a killer until I say killing somebody Makes you a killer We see his breathing rate back up to about 50 here. Remember 20 or below 18 or below is about the average We see chest and chest versus abdomen breathing up into his chest. You know at that breathing rate there's a Rapid increase in blink rate right before the question is answered and then as he starts to answer it is target focus It is threat identification and threat focus I think it's interesting that he in all of his videos and any other media He's using his right hand most of the time to gesture His left hand to talk about jewels and he uses this blocking. Yeah, worries. He's cutting it off pushing it away and and blocking The there is authentic eye accessing here. We were seeing him access real information when the journal's coming up He's he's really trying to think what was actually there. What can I grab out of that page that was that can You know knock one domino down that might knock some rest of the story down as well So some great baseline here in this video when he says I behave very badly and This is another example of severity softening. I behaved badly. I was irresponsible with alcohol So now we're seeing a pattern of softening the severity of his own behavior Greg So he's trading guilt again He's trying to find a reason he says I was very bad to to jewels. That's another trading guilt So just because he says I didn't do this Doesn't make it true to your point chase if you listen now I'm going to back up after I say this the last thing he says is he says it doesn't make me A killer That's a pause. There's a negative. I mean there's that's negative in the way he speaks because everything else he's done is like this His cadence is flowing or he might get into that glitchy all over the place thing The first time he's done a pause just before he says a killer Interesting because if I were accused of a criminal thing, I wouldn't want to put that pause ahead of it and draw attention to that word Watch his shoulders. They're moving constantly when he's talking His eye accessing cues you're dead on chase. He does two eye accessing cues more importantly when he says In your journal he gets concerned in his forehead once you make an accusation then I would be like, okay I'm confused but he hasn't made any accusation. So the timing of that Crazy little face thing is before he said anything and then he goes away from where he normally goes He goes to his right and starts rifling through. Uh, oh, what did I say in my journal? That's going to be a problem and then he once he brings up what he said Then he goes back to his left and he looks ledger and figures out what's there So you're seeing two different behaviors one that is If you're if you're trying to find a person's baseline This guy's going over here all the time and suddenly he goes over here. There's something different going on his head Now can we say exactly what no, but we can say Something is varying there and so we want to know why Then he when he's breaking that eye contact because he's actually thinking people do people can break eye contact for a number of reasons The thousand yards stare a lot of military guys get that's not the same thing But this guy's rifling through his head and you can't miss it When he comes back to his left and then he starts to illustrate and he uses his hands and he uses The one thing we always say is the easiest to fight. I can't remember. I can't remember so I pressure's up on this guy things are negative now. This is not about the turkey scratching his head This is about did you beat your wife where you were sexually aggressive? These are character assassinating things That do start to say Hmm. You had a problem with alcohol You beat your wife. You're sexually aggressive. You were still drinking when this was going on We don't know where you were Now he's starting to feel pressure and you can see it look at his respiration. Watch that tie Is his heart's pounding. It's pretty easy to see Scott. What do you got? Yeah, I totally agree. He's going right down the road of telling on himself in other words He says all these things that happen. Yes, I I may have I My behavior was bad towards jewels and and I abused whiskey and all that But it doesn't make me a monster. Yes, it does. Yes, it does. You just contradicted yourself If you if you hit women and you're some guy who's all drunk hitting women. Yeah, you're a monster That's what they're made of. That's how you make one. That's how you become one children know you as that Wives know you as that that's what you are. So yeah, he is that why would he say monster? You know, why would he why do you say it doesn't make me a monster? Yeah, it does. You are one. You just said you were that was I'm getting a little too into this Anyway, so I think we're seeing a pattern of behavior that he's talking about that shows He's a candidate one makes him a candidate to be the person who who may have committed a crime this bad That's that for a word. So uh, that's what I got mark. What do you got? Yeah, nothing much else other than some reiterations of what you're saying there Yeah, for me breathing rate suddenly goes really high Blink rate is there as well. Love to see those eye-accessing cues as he goes for You know, what's in that? What have they got on me? What did I write in that journal? But none of the eye Accessing that I see is about self-reflection. So he's utter in that moment of going. Hey What kind of character do you think you are? He has to access Stuff that he's written down. He has to access data He doesn't go inward and go, let me just think about myself for a moment and now inform you Who I am right now. This is the kind of values that I work under. Let me explain myself right now Doesn't have the capacity could be stress could be pressure to be reflective in this situation Maybe he's not somebody who's that reflective a lot of the time and again that might fit quite well Into the persona type of the narcissist, maybe even different types of not of narcissists somebody who Well, if they're really reflective that they really think about themselves That's you know, emotionally Pretty hard for them to do it's painful for them because of scott said because of the loathing It's painful to think about yourself So you externalize that you build up a big ego you build up a big story about yourself You use those stories to lower other people's status as well So that by default Your grander and you get this grandiose figure who's unable to really touch upon themselves now, you know That might be a big extrapolation from From this little piece here, but it may be maybe it's not maybe it's pretty accurate Anyway, you decide what do you think that guys not once as anybody said this guy committed murder Not one of us what we're saying is If you are if I were interrogating a guy and I see a pattern of beat your wife three times One bad enough to be hospitalized and have stuff done to her have repairs made Admitted it. So you have a problem with alcohol This is around the time you're having troubles with alcohol and you had some sexual Thing that you wrote out in your diary Now if I'm in the interrogation room I got things to play with and that's what you're seeing this interviewer do is say I'm putting you in a box with bad guys Now you tell me why you're not a bad guy And people leak information when they get to tell you why they're not a bad guy Yeah, the libel trial went into very very personal details from your diaries You wrote in some detail about being Sexually very aggressive. You said that you were a monster or beast or something I do you know I I can't remember I may have made a reference to my behavior towards duals that I behaved very badly But that doesn't make me a killer The French investigation team had a psychiatrist read these extracts from the diary and offer an opinion on your character He mentions I'm quoting directly now narcissism psychorigidity violence impulsiveness egocentricity intolerance of frustration and a great need for recognition Do you recognize yourself in any of that? No, no, I don't there are a number of Mistakes maybe that I made a mountain you have no alibi Well, I um But do I need an alibi? Uh, I I mean I know that I have nothing to do with this It's very difficult to prove a negative and or this has been one of my problems over the years Because I was so I've been accused all of the effort was put on to making me the murderer It's very difficult to to prove a negative And I I've not been able to sufficiently so far Um do that All right, I'll go first on this one After he says nice narcissism after the guy goes down the list of narcissism and um psychorigidity He's talking about mental rigidity And so and that's where the person Refuses to see things from another person's point to accept that and that's when he has a problem As soon as he says that you see him recoil from that as he's refusing to accept any of that So he's this is what he's describing. He's showing us the definition of that as he goes through it um And the same thing for the narcissist part the narcissism part He's just this this is this guy's just pointing out all his problems. He doesn't agree to one I mean he says none of that looks like me and all we've talked about is how he's a narcissist and how he's all these things He's refusing to accept any of that and the and the guy the psychologist Just just said this from reading his diary from reading his journal So that's pretty hardcore there if you can figure that stuff out and you can see him recoiling from these things as the guy's explaining him I mean, I'm not I really gotta watch what I'm saying on here. Someone make mine short Uh mark, what do you got? Yeah, so I think what's happening there is irony In Bailey if you're watching so that so that was that's what we call irony. Okay, so So Right exactly. I won't be getting a a Christmas card from in Bailey and I'm sure the poetry would have been Fantastic Um, and and the thoughts beautiful. Anyway, um, look, um Mr. Bailey is is not as smart as he thinks because uh, he makes a fundamental Mistake with the idea of logic this idea of you cannot Prove a negative Absolutely, uh, absolutely you can here. Let me do it. Okay I assert that unicorns do not exist. Okay, let me prove that negative There are there is no record of unicorns in fossils No record at all. Okay, so therefore now you could go but hey mark our fossils really real. Are they well? No, you see you don't have to if you have to trace back your logic to every assertion. You can't prove Anything so in in the world of logic Absolutely, you can prove Negatives now what he says is so it's a classic mistake in Bailey makes a classic mistake of logic by going You can't prove a negative now you you can assert it is not my my position to To prove a negative that it's not my the preponderance of evidence is is not Upon me it is not my burden. That's a whole different thing Okay, he says I've I've not I've not been able to sufficiently do so so far not been able to he's not been able To disprove So it's a double negative. He creates his own positive assertion That logically He did it By by doing a double negative. So I'm not listen. I'm not saying Ian Bailey did anything but in this Logically, Ian Bailey is saying that he did it because he does a double negative around this murder that Is actually what they call logic now? That's not how courts work. So just so you know courts don't tend to use that kind of of logic But there that's that's my little Little piece for you There not all maybe maybe I was just being sarcastic with all of that. I don't know I don't know chase. What do you got? We've gone from unicorns to cartoons to a lanus morissette In the course of 15 minutes. I like him And let's I think his his drive to feel significant is stronger than his internal narcissism I think he has an unusual case of of narcissistic behavior here. I won't say narcissism. I'm not a clinician I'm not making a diagnosis But narcissism, I want you to just to view narcissism as an empty file labeled personality and identity And a narcissist can't fill that file themselves other people have to put data into that file So that's where the narcissist will go and collect personality data from other people And I think a a classic narcissist where scott's referring to malignant narcissists, which I agree with non-diagnostically, I'll just say that for legal purposes A classic narcissist would probably have left the city a long time ago because the data getting fed into the personality and identity Folder is going to be negative They will start to believe it before too long So I think When he's saying I made a number of mistakes, maybe we see more severity softening And there's an even an appeal for approval there There's some eyebrow flash to the interviewer here and he says I know that I have nothing to do with this Have present tense nothing to do with this And that's probably correct present tense. Maybe that's correct to him in the present tense And we've already we've already beat that to death and what what people say I know that I'm innocent. I know that I didn't do this. I know that I have nothing to do with this all very similar I'll just leave it at that great Yeah, so I love the irony here mark to your whole point Yep, the thing he gets most disappointed about and he might not even know what it means is the Psycho rigidity. I think is what they called it. I call it rigid rigid behavior And when he does that he immediately pushes back up scott and I were laughing about Yeah, no, I'm not rigid. I love that behavior. There's some irony there. It's a great one Some of the best fight or flight you're ever going to see in your life is right here And it's sustained it's been here long enough that around his eyes are getting dry and his eyes are starting to sag more His mouth needs wetting So all that mucus membranes are drying out and you're seeing the benefit of fight or flight Does that mean he killed anybody? No, it means that he is stressed around this point Then he actually has shock Just a minor version of shock when they bring up the psychiatrist like that's admissible They're going to talk about my health records or whatever he perceives it to be And then when they go into the rigidity thing he gets really upset if you watch he also does One of my favorites not the chained elephant, but the rock He's got a rock rate not a sway rate. It's starting stress has got him That's a self comforting thing and then he says one of the stupidest things I've ever heard in my life Do I need an alibi? Well, apparently in france, it would have been nice to have When you're accused of murder an alibi is a key element of how you get out of that Not having one is kind of dumb and then he goes into this next big thing And mark, I think what we're seeing when he starts down the negative no way to prove the negative I think robert barnes would disagree probably a whole bunch of attorneys who make a lot of money Proving the net disproving the negative work wonders But he goes into chaff and redirect and that's all it is It's poor me poor me self pity chaff redirect chaff redirect. Does that mean he killed her? No, but it does mean his logic is broken And I think he's starting even He can see a little bit in the mirror right here that things are starting to pile up on him Now is that many killed her again? No, but it surely has a lot of Stupid things there alibi fight or flight Biggest pushback is around rigidity. It just finds this this one's the most amusing one we've done in a while That's what I got The french investigation team had a psychiatrist read these extracts from the diary and offer an opinion on your character He mentions I'm quoting directly now narcissism psycho rigidity violence impulsiveness egocentricity intolerance of frustration and a great need for recognition Do you recognize yourself in any of that? No, no, I don't there were a number of Mistakes maybe that I made a mountain you have no alibi well, I But do I need an alibi? uh I mean, I know that I have nothing to do with this It's very difficult to prove a negative and or this has been one of my problems over the years Because I was so I've been accused all of the effort was put on to making me the murderer It's very difficult to to prove a negative And I I've not been able to sufficiently so far Um do that great I gave a sample of hair. I had a hair pulled from my I did my partner and they gave it Um on the basis that in in Sophie's hand had been found hair My view was this, you know, take my DNA Tested against the DNA you found and you will find it isn't mine Would you be happy to submit your DNA now again in 2017? I well at one. I'm I don't have to I'm not being asked to But in principle, I wouldn't have an objection There's our boy Wow, I don't get my foot out of this trap Yeah, no kidding. Hey chase what we're gonna say about the bingo card Yeah, Greg just did a couple of chaff and redirects. So if you downloaded the behavioral Panel bingo card from our community board and you are playing bingo Let us know and send us a picture of it at hashtag the behavior panel anywhere on social media We'd love to see it and it's it definitely makes our day when we see that stuff Yeah, all right, Greg, you want to go first? Sure. I'm not going to cover the entire thing. Let's start with him as a young person Eyes riveted way too much eye contact, but I think that may be part of his persona He was larger than life in town. They said he would demand people listen to poetry in the pub and that kind of thing I said, Scott, can you imagine going into a south georgia bar and saying all you guys need to listen to me? That wouldn't go over so well and these guys were tolerant and they said he was larger than life So maybe that's part of his persona, but he's it's dramatic. It's almost like he's trying to deliver a dramatic line Again, probably backed his persona. His eyes are locked. He goes we gave hair and Well, we didn't volunteer this is they probably came around said hey We'd like some DNA from anybody that we think is involved. That's it for there But then when he gets into where he's talking about it's my view and that kind of thing It's my view that if my DNA didn't match I'd be okay He's illustrating with his hand and doing kind of a timeline looks reasonable looks right Then just as he gets to the end there, there's apprehension and we can see apprehension because Your brow is up your eyes are locked and your mouth is open How many times i've in my life interrogated prisoners real and seer That apprehension is the number one thing you see on their face that And you can see it starting to creep into him as he says Uh, we're basically says he wouldn't be mine. I forget his exact words right there at the end That's desma morris 101 desma morris said that anything distasteful you push out of your mouth So while he may be saying the words he's does a tongue job there at the end Does it mean he killed anybody no, but it means You saw him as a young man saying one thing now you see him as an old man saying one thing And they're very different body languages just would say that and I think part of it's because he had An impression he was trying to deliver in the first mark. What do you got? Yeah, just one thing he says in principle I would not have an objection in principle There's no objection to redelivering the dna doesn't talk anything about what would happen in reality So principles are different from if you actually if the actual cop turned up and said Give me the hair sample. Give me the swab from the mouth So, you know using a a slight of mouth there in terms of using principles instead of Absolutely in reality bring it on got no problem at all. So clearly he does have a problem He does have an issue with in reality delivering fresh dna samples or or You know a dna test under the modern more modern criteria being done at this point Scott, what do you got for us? I totally agree I think he got away with the dna DNA test last time because he that apparently he didn't give very much hair But I'm sure they asked for it But back then I don't think dna was as potent as it is as it is now But then he says he would give it But checking his head knows he's saying yeah, he would give him he would give him some dna But he hasn't been asked So why would he even bring that up? That's on his mind. He's worried about that He's worried about that because there's no other reason to say well, they haven't asked me without giving Yeah, you say yeah, man. You want it? Come and get it. That's all that's what we would say You want dna here? I'm gonna why don't I spit in this cup or whatever you need me to do There you go. Here's my dna man Go, you know, go knock yourself out with it But he's not gonna do that if it came up I bet he'd fight it because I did it before why you need it again. You know, I'm not doing it again I've already done that that would be his argument Um, and we're seeing the old behavior compared with the new behaviors fascinating because we're not seeing any emotions at all And that and that in the old behavior like we tell like like we saw before in the old behavior Nothing's there, but in these in this behavior. We're seeing We're seeing a whole lot comparatively with that so whether he's he's aged and become more mature with his his Emotions and be able to share With people Whatever the situation is He's uh, he's a lot more animated now than he used to be So I think his confidence is low on this and we see that by all those little Shoulder jerks and and his approach to it and how he's kind of His head's cocked for a little bit and and his delivery with that. I think he's unsure of this And I think he's worried about it and I'm gonna say I'm gonna put a hundred bucks on it Maybe I want to take the bet. He's not going to give up his DNA easily If he gives it up because his argument will be I already gave it before and that'll be his that'll be his argument Uh chase. What do you got? I'm definitely not gonna take that back He begins head shaking and then goes to head turning as soon as he realized what the question is I think that's a great little clip right there. There's a head shaking and a second later. There's head turning Uh, right as he realizes what the question's about And he starts with this thing that he's kind of famous for from what I've seen Every time he's asking a question. He starts with these numbered lists He goes well number one And then never there's no other Usually no other numbers coming after that And he is starved for oxygen in this clip and you can see his body is starved for oxygen See his mouth open pulling in as much air as he can Uh, there's a denial first followed by in principle while we do it in principle And I think it's interesting to note that he was in the first clip that you watched tonight with us He welcomed a new trial Uh, and and now he's not very comfortable with it and he's a little bit hesitant with the new technology That's all I got here Yeah, I gave a sample of hair I had a hair pulled from my I did my partner and we gave it Um on the basis that in in Sophie's hand had been found hair My view was this, you know, take my dna Tested against the dna you found and you will find it isn't mine Would you be happy to submit your dna now again in 2017? I well at one I don't have to I'm not being asked to but in principle. I wouldn't have an objection Yep, that's it On one occasion while she was in residence in the cottage I saw a person inside the house at some considerable distance I wouldn't have been able to recognize them known who they were So did you ever meet her? No, I didn't ever meet her All right mark, what do you got? Yeah, really simple easy one on here. Did you ever meet her? No is a fine answer. Just go with no That's it, you know and and again, I'm not trying to teach you how to lie here because if you get in this situation and you did meet somebody and You know, I ask you did you ever meet that person? You'll forget that I said just say no No will be fine. Don't qualify in any way. Don't repeat anything No is a really good answer for silent wait for the next question You'll forget because the pressure will be too high and you'll if you have met that person You'll come up with a whole bunch of stuff around it. Okay He says no, I didn't ever meet her Unnecessary to say the the rest that's a red flag for me on top of everything else That's all I want to say on that one scott. What do you got? I think you pretty much covered all that for me. I mean when he says He says no, that's all you got to say, you know, I agree with all that. I got I got I'm like, I can't add anything else to that. I don't know what else can I know greg's dying You got something over there greg. What do you got? I have a couple of things so Number one the biggest illustrator we've seen is I saw her from a distance He's distancing himself on a grand scale like nothing else. He's done this entire thing Not a big deal except it's different and different matters That's what we call baseline, right? If I suddenly do something dramatic, then it means something Could it just be emphatic? Sure, but he's not saying anything emphatic at that point The other thing is he's got a request for approval that foreheads up And his chin is down We usually think when somebody's chin drops or protecting their throat when they're protecting their throat It's out of shame guilt or negative emotions. We also think that when you're asking for approval in your heads up Just go back watch the last freeze the the video when he pauses at that last second There's so much going on there that you can't miss that something's changed him his body even looks smaller So here I would say hmm. I would poke on this a little bit more and say when you say from a distance You saw her inside the house. How'd you see her? What does she look like, you know, where was she at in the house? I would ask all kinds of questions here because I think Then you're going to get him to kind of come unbuckled a little bit Even because people incriminate Whether he killed her or not people incriminate themselves as to some past behaviors with certain words And if you keep poking that's a sweater You're going to pull on that string and it's going to come out But that request for approval with his chin down And that emphatic push-up. Oh by the way this When he's saying no Could be uh, hey, I've been prepared for this question and here it is I all these pieces together I would certainly give him a little more scrutiny and attention chase. What do you got? Yeah, my first note here is this is the question he's been preparing for And my second one is distancing verbal and nonverbal behavior I saw her from a really big distance and I saw someone inside the house Made sure it's inside the house So it couldn't have been me. I saw a person that couldn't have been me because they were inside the house And I wouldn't have been able to recognize them Not I didn't recognize them not I couldn't recognize them If it was an imaginary scenario That's when a person would say I would not have been able to recognize them because that's assuming that it didn't happen I wouldn't have been able to recognize them And or I wasn't would be a truthful answer and Right, there's an immediate flash to internal dialogue the eyes go down There is no hesitation what we interrogators would call latency like the end of a question the beginning of a response And his baseline suggests that he would shake his head and offer a simple not a compound answer So this compound answer is different from most of his baseline behavior. That's all I got Excellent On one occasion while she was in residence in the cottage I saw a person inside the house at some considerable distance I wouldn't have been able to recognize them known who they were So did you ever meet her? No, I didn't ever meet her All right. Well, uh, why don't we kind of throw it around the room see what we got We'll start with mark or chase anything. Greg. So mark. Where do you got? Yeah, I just think he has a basic misunderstanding of what irony might be and so you know for that for that reason alone, I don't quite Trust him that that's all that's all I'll say about that chase. What do you got? I think we see a lot of deception indicators here I won't say that there's a lie or a murder that took place And this is the person that did it but there are a lot of red flags And there are more red flags than I have seen on average Even talking to people who are actually later convicted. I see more red flags here than I would see In a case where we would later have a conviction Greg So number one Famous irish poets who don't understand irony That's I'll take that category for nothing right? There's number one, but let's just walk through that the guy is weird I mean, he's quirky in his behavior We know that if you go and look he walked around town dressed like some you know pirate a one woman described him looking like a pirate whatever So he's he's odd. Does odd mean that somebody murdered someone? No, he beat his wife. Does that mean he murdered someone? No But all this other stuff now what I'm going to tell you is the only way you get to know if he murdered Someone is forensic evidence or confession. The rest of it were conjecturing the rest of it. That's it So what we would do is all these red flags that chase is talking about as an interrogator Those are lovers the minute I see a weakness I'm going to flip and open his little control panel and push a few buttons close it up and go back to work He's got a lot of him He needs approval at a lot of turns and we would certainly give him approval Here what I see is enough red flags to make me go. Hmm. I'd love to talk to this guy Not diddy killer, but hmm. I'd love to talk to him. See is he just so Wacky that he doesn't understand that he's using the word incorrectly or was that intentional? Was that a tool? There's a lot of reasons to want to talk to him and I'd love to Scott. What do you got? From video one to this last one all we're seeing is just multiple multiple things that we that we train with and we say hey look for this this this and this look for this Isn't this we're seeing all those things in here from the way he's speaking to his delivery To the way he ends these things a lot of times and I think we're seeing Like I said before a malignant narcissist and I think that is obvious here If you wonder what they're like and how they act all that go watch this go watch this go watch this thing on Netflix Because you're you're that's what you're dealing with. That's what you're dealing with here And I agree with you guys. There are more red flags in this thing Yeah, it's unbelievable. It's just like one two three If we had a little ding ding sound every time it happened you couldn't hear the guy talk There'll be so many things going on. So yeah, I I agree with you. What are you gonna say, Greg? Go back and compare him to castellano He many more red flags than castellano had even Yeah, and you know what we should we should remember that the french criminal court Say that he did commit murder. Yeah, so, you know, there's there's that I don't know but they seem to know Yeah, they seem to believe it And the psychologist who's read his journals seems to know he has some disorders. So All right, all right, fellas. Well, that was another good one And uh, I'll see you next time and we'll uh watch uh, right for this watch. Greg jump around Hey, it's dr. Phil here. Please subscribe to the behavior panel