 Hello and welcome to the drum history podcast. I'm yours Bart van der Zee and today I'm honored to be joined by Mr. Joe Bergamini who's a drummer educator author clinician consultant Joe welcome to the podcast Bart thanks so much. It's a pleasure to be here. Yeah, I was lucky enough to catch your recent Clinic and the your discussion at the drum set committee at the most recent PASIC, which I just loved I thought that was so cool. It was mainly about Teaching in this crazy modern Era of video. It was really important stuff. I loved it. Thanks so much. Yeah, it's I've been going to PASIC The Percussive Arts Society International Convention. Thank you Yeah, you know for many many years and Actually kind of relates to our discussion today I built a lot of different elements of my career by attending NAM and PASIC You know just as a civilian, you know, so to speak kind of egged on by Dom Familaro, who was my teacher and And those first just going to learn going to all these clinics going to see Performances and and then as I got more involved in the industry starting to do presentation So that panel actually I got involved with the drum set committee and my thought was So many people who go to PASIC are you know, they're we're in the trenches so to speak working teaching especially teaching and It's like a for us. That's a professional development conference. Absolutely, right? So yeah, let's make the drum set committee panel, you know something that actionable stuff that Other peers, you know guys and girls can take home and and put right to work So they it was Eric Hughes has been the drum set committee chair for a long time and yeah He's done such a great job. So he welcomed that and And then so that led to me thinking about maybe I should do a clinic about about teaching I've seen so many great clinics. I mean you go from all these amazing players playing Things that are just in the stratosphere. I mean you're gonna see the most You know, so my thing wasn't about that, you know, I mean, yeah But yeah, it was it was refreshing to see that it was like a different take on I don't know. It was it was tools for your tool belt, you know, it was it was actual Things that everyone can leave not that you wouldn't wouldn't go home and practice drum stuff if you're watching, you know An amazing drummer, but this was like Practical tools. Well, you you'll you'll go home from there wanting to practice for sure But um, but I think in terms of like what's offered they do a great job of offering all different things and you know It's important to offer those different things because I'm here to tell you there's guys who can play way better independence poly rhythms that I can play faster chops than I can play and You know, it you that's great But sure it's only one thing when it comes to making a living playing the drums It's only one and and actually you can make a living playing the drums without doing any of that stuff Yeah, you have other things in order. Sure. Yeah, that's a very good point I mean, it's and that's the beauty of PASIC and I recommend everyone out there to go and check it out It's I'm lucky because it's only about two hours from me So I could actually I actually went Friday in the morning and I had to come back that night Because I was going out of town on Monday, and it was a little with a baby with a two-year-old and the pregnant wife It was a little too much It was awesome, but so We have a couple housekeeping things to talk about first But I just want to let people know today's topic Joe has some some really cool books that we're gonna be talking about Stuart Copeland drumming in the police and beyond and Neil Peart taking center stage a lifetime of live performance. There's that and so For the podcast. We're actually shooting a video as well So Joe's gonna be referring to some video stuff and we'll we'll do our best to explain it as we go But okay, so the housekeeping stuff I want to first give a big shout-out mr. John de Christopher who has recently been on the podcast as a guest Is just like it's unbelievable. He joined up on patreon pretty much right after at a level that Is pretty substantial where he gets the tier is he gets a shout-out and I just love that because John is someone who I Really enjoy his life from my drum room series. I think it's just like important knowledge to be passing on to people so This is the you know, it's funny because it's the shout-out, but it's not just you know Some guy or girl. It's John de Christopher. I mean it's someone who really is As you heard on his episode a couple weeks back He's just such a veteran of the industry and I know you know him What's your experience? I want to say Johnny D. Thank you my brother. You know, it's funny. I'm a died in the Wolf Sabian guy You know endorse 30 years endorsing the company and now consulting for them And of course John as the worldwide artists relations director Zillian We got to know each other in the biz and it was a classic example of just sort of becoming like seeing each other in the Hallways at places. Yeah, I'm like, you know, John was like, oh, like I've seen this guy a few times Oh, his name is Joe, you know waving in the hallway and then like, you know I'm so happy with Sabian. He was it's it was the great example of just I didn't want anything from him And we came buddies and I the thing I you know, not only is he a gentleman and a scholar, but You know looking at what he's done since he left Being the artist relations director from Zillian He just loves music and the drums man. Yes, and he's he's not only a great guy, but I just In awe of his passion for and was pleased to you know, he's really good friends with Rob Wallace who owns Hudson music So we do a lot of podcasts and been on his interview thing what we did The Jeff Prokaro biography, which I helped to edit sure. So yeah, so Johnny D's one of the good guys, man. Love you, bro. Absolutely. Absolutely. And just you know, so Live from my drum room is what people should check out on YouTube and the podcast form which is kind of the audio version of it Obviously, just thank you to John for joining up and helping to support the show Very very cool. And then the second thing which this is gonna be a surprise to you, Joe So I guarantee you don't remember it, but I emailed you in 2013 with a I would call it now reading back just an asinine Rambling email about how I wanted to have a book and a video series with you through Hudson music where I had Absolutely, no, I was just at a college I was working as a drum teacher and I was doing these videos in this whole warehouse that I do I have is like a music space just just silly stuff and You answered, you know, this was What is that seven years ago? This you had a very nice I don't think we can do this at this point, but thank you for reaching out. You were very very nice Oh, and I just wanted to say thank you for that because again, it's just like basically a kid at that point Coming at you with why would I get a book at that point? Why would I work with the biggest distributor? But I just think it's kind of funny because now I Guess would it be? That's that no that was nine years ago. So so I started the podcast six or seven years after that Which I think has been my thing and I'm fortunate. It's been pretty successful Just to keep working at it. I guess is the takeaway for me of like, you know, you again, you were very nice And I appreciate that you're welcome. I it's funny because I'm I'm the kind of guy who you know I've been teaching a long time and I I I want everyone to succeed, you know I want to see all my students and my peers succeed and and I love nothing better when I get a proposal from Someone and we put something out through Hudson music or or wisdom like little company. I have with But you know, you the hard part is you can't say yes to everybody. Yeah, and the hard part is that that You know, this business can be mean, you know, like you don't you know You don't get where you want to go without You know, like me working with Hudson music is not you know I didn't I didn't find an interview link on LinkedIn and get the job that it's the result of you know A lifetime of me working my tail off. Yeah, just because I loved it with no guarantee of success So, you know, it's a fine line with what your younger self coming to Hudson music with your idea You it's okay to do that. Sure. It's just how you do it and If someone comes at you like in a super entitled way that you know, hey, man I'm the I have the greatest thing in the world and why wouldn't you want to do it? You know, I can be You know, I I try never to be dismissive or yeah, but but Certainly, you know, if you I remember the first time I went to the NAMM show and I'm walking around and and I'm like, oh my gosh I'm like, you know, I'm like a tiny pimple on the body of the music business I'm nobody. I'm nothing like I don't even want to walk into the Vic Firth booth And Vic's there with Omar Hakeem and you know, but Eventually, you know, I think if you come from a place of respect and you and you want to so yeah I get proposals all the time and and um, yeah, I do I do try to you know, we Rob Wallace and I we do Look, you know, we do look at them. You know, we do. Yeah but Yeah, yeah, you were you were great though And I appreciate it and it's just funny to look back to because I've heard Rob cook You know the great author and the Chicago drum show he's mentioned on some of his episodes like When people send in proposals to play a clinic at the Chicago show He's talked about you never want to be mean to people because you never know what they're gonna do and I mean I in no way am I this massive person but I'm happy that I looked back on that and went okay, I was trying to get my foot in the door that many almost a decade ago and You were so nice that it didn't like shut me down, but but it you know, I look back and I'm like, okay That's cool. I'm glad I kept going and kept trying different stuff until one thing clicked and had kind of has become my thing So again, it's just a nice guy. You're very welcome And and I think the lesson is if you can't handle an occasional no not getting the gig and a little disappointment Don't get into the music business. That's exactly right. Yeah, you nailed it. Okay, so Now moving on to the topic here. So you have written these two great books about what about Stuart Copeland? What about Neil Peart and I'll let you start with whatever one you want, but I think just first off Maybe Neil or stew or whoever just how the heck did you get in the door? And how did you start this process of writing these these books with these legends? Well, that's a great question and and as I look back, you know, the whole this whole process of getting to be like Sort of the drum book guy or whatever it is. Um, it's really sort of an organic thing that grew out of my I think what I my personality like I have a certain When I when I was first starting to play the drums Neil and Stuart were two of my favorite drummers and I'm that kind of like organized OCD person that I like to go in and and dig deep and And Neil's Neil's body of work really lends itself to that The lyrics and his setup you could just tell the intention of everything, you know people say well You know he plays he plays the same fills all the time. I mean, how could you I'm he so much thought went into playing what he played So, you know, yeah, is it is it better? Is it worse because he plays the same fills? That's ridiculous. It's toy You know, so, you know, just Just the care and the nerdiness of his whole thing. Yeah Yeah, it like came attention to detail and yeah, so so I you know I've literally poured over everything I could get my hands on about him You know, I I played along to rush for two hours every day in seventh eighth and ninth grade I found a guitar player that he would he liked Russian in my school rushes like considered really nerdy So like nobody else really liked them. I liked all the other bands, you know Sabbath and Metallica and the chili peppers and Van Halen But they would you know, they would sort of make fun of me for liking rush partially because they knew it like Made me angry when they did that, you know Yeah, and it just made me all the fiercer of a fan, you know, sure And then I went and got there was an early book called drum techniques of rush You can people are trying to hawk it for like 500 bucks on eBay right now. It's a joke But I I subscribed to modern drummer because you know, my Neil was in modern drummer all the time Yeah, and and I just loved Trying to find out about him and I'm like, oh wait, here's a here's a VHS tape Exist stage left. Oh, you can see his drum set in this little, you know, we didn't have I know This all sounds so like, you know, I'll back in the day. I walked uphill, you know, two ways to school But like there was something cool about not being able to have full access. Yeah, I had to pause the video, you know Yeah, to see like oh, oh and Xanadu. Oh, he's playing the the Tom there. I thought he was playing a Tim Bali I mean is the the you know freeze framing things wearing out the VHS and then, you know, waiting for a transcription to come in modern drummer Yeah, I mean we've talked about on the show before that that era that that way of learning really always does add to the mythical nature of Artists where you have to like catch a little glimpse of them and you have to pause and you have to wear out your VHS tape because you watch it so many times It it adds to their, you know Godlike status really, right? So so I think nowadays the mystique part is very much diminished, you know Like but but the thing that's not diminished and the thing that's I think the point of this is I did a mega deep dive into these guys that I loved their work for no other reason that I do I was just totally fascinated by it and then that eventually led to me, you know, I was like I used to love reading along with that old transcription book and I was taking a few lessons But really reading along with that book made me a better reader and and then I got fascinated with how things looked and I was like Well, great. I mean if they publish one in a magazine, I want to be able to use it So I I credit that with actually improving my reading and then of course the next step was like Oh, well, you know, they haven't they don't have um, you know I don't know what uh, they don't have I'm trying to think think of what song, you know, they don't have the hemispheres prelude transcribed in this book I'm gonna transcribe it and so then then I went and just because I wanted to I would go and You know learn how to transcribe first on paper and then eventually with a computer program at that time You know, it was the early days of finale and things like that and um, all of these skills. I sort of like developed over You know the months in the years And just because I I felt like they were things that I might you know, that might help me in my career But more over in the beginning. I just enjoyed doing them Yeah, which I mean got the the passion you have for something really dictates how much time and effort you want to put into it Uh, of course, I mean Yeah, so, uh, you know, I'm kind of coming around the long way to the answering the question But um, basically what wound up happening was I I eventually started submitting some of those transcriptions to modern drummer magazine And I got published in modern drummer as you're doing some articles from time to time Wow and and really enjoyed that process and then I was studying with dom familaro at the time and dom asked me to help him With his book it's your move which at the time was still unpublished and um, so between those kind of things I worked my way into Getting a few things published and um, I found it very empowering not only because I got to see my name in the magazine That I was reading since I was a little kid Yeah, of course, um, and I was just honored to be a part of it, but um I just was like wow, this is great. This maybe this is another little income stream And I really like doing it and that eventually led to me getting into um, the world of publishing drum books and and and and so What fascinated me about drum books so so most of the time when I'm working with someone from Hudson music You know, they they have a a method book or a book about a topic of some kind and um, and that's kind of like the What I teach that's the basis of my curriculum, you know, after drum set method book Gatamence future sounds the art of bob drumming afro cuban really, you know, all those classic books, but um That drum techniques of rush book just stuck in my head and I just love that it was about Neil and I So I was always fascinated with these sort of artist driven Do a deep dive into the work of one person and um, and so the first thing that happened was Um modern drummer after I did the articles for a while when bill miller and ron spagnardi were still alive both Wonderful gentlemen who really, you know gave me a boost up in the beginning. They they uh, Asked me to do a book of what they called red meat transcriptions And I'm going to hold up the cover. It was the md classic tracks Yeah, and this is just it's just a transcription book and bill and I chose Carter bow for a john bomb terry bozio vini caliuta philt collin steward copeland neil pierrick keith moon Steve gad simon philip chef piccaro mike Mike portnoy steve smith literally the like best I mean the top tier drummers in the world and and we were we we actually said it was it was the drummers that For bill and I the guys who You know, we liked in the music that we listened to if if bill did that book with, you know, mark griffiths The I wouldn't have been the guy to do the jazz version in the jazz version That would be tony williams art bleakie max roach Yeah, you know jeff watz all those guys and if it was the funk version, it would be zigaboo and david garibald You know, I'm saying, um, so so not to say You know the the the greatest of all time lists to me are just a total joke, you know Yes But anyway, you know holding up a page again I was able to kind of do a little bit of a you know, write some text have some photographs And I was like, this is the kind of thing I wanted to to do Yeah, and and shortly after that Um, again going to these trade shows and networking and meeting people Yeah, I I met another guy who's became a friend at the time. He was the Doing acquisitions for warner brothers when they were still doing drumbooks and um I could just you know, I'm like a wind up toy. I could just go into all these Anyway, this yeah, this this fellow's name was was ray brige. I actually just saw him I had a gig in la and we reconnected and um There was at the same time at that drum techniques of rush book back in the day There was a drum techniques of led zeppelin and it was full of mistakes like tons of and I had been bugging him Not unlike, you know, you approaching hudson as a younger version of yourself I was like, you know, we should really redo those and make them better And so finally he said, you know, that's a great idea and I redid the the drum techniques of led zeppelin book Yeah, and For warner brothers. So sure. So that's kind of how I got my foot in the door of Of doing these kind of personality drumbooks, which is important because I mean, um There's something very uh, I mean, it's it's a business you want to sell books You want to sell stuff having john bonham on the cover of a drum book because you're walking through Guitar center or sam ash or whatever looking at that, you know Rack of books I'm gonna grab john bonham You know what I mean? So it helps to have that biography level of it And I like how you include the little blurbs about the drummer and the pictures and the fun stuff like that So it makes sense that it's a direct Uh, it leads directly into Doing the other books you did about Neil peart and stewart copeland, um, which why don't you describe those a little bit about what they like a summary of them for people who may not be You know know about them Absolutely. So I I had actually gone. I just I just want to mention these others I I became the drum editor for a hot second for carl fisher and when I was there I wanted to continue doing that. I always wanted to do this thing. So these you know I I did one with also with scott rockenfield from from queens rike called operation rockfield and then one with jason bitner Called drumming out of the shadows And so I kept developing the idea so that when the time came and I was I met the guys from hudson music I I kind of brought this idea with me and What happened was so I when I when I I always wanted to do those kinds of projects But once I got with hudson music, I was almost doing Personality projects every day because I came into the company and we were doing a dvd with keith carlock and erin spears And john blackwell steve gad So the idea sort of laid dormant, but I I thought to myself that I wanted to do it Um, and and I loved the transcriptions, but I loved like the drum set diagrams. Yeah the text and the photos so After I had been with hudson for a few years now I I knew that they we've established that I was a neil pierd freak and he was my hero after a few years of of Working with hudson rob came to me and he said I just met with neil and he might be open to doing a project Could you read a proposal for him? Wow, and after I picked myself up off the floor because you know the first five years I worked for hudson or whatever it was. I never brought up his name I because I knew enough about him to know that you know if he was interested in doing something It wouldn't be coming from some unknown guy, you know, yeah proposing it. So once once rob Said that I immediately said I want to make the dream version of that drum techniques of rush book And I wanted to have not only the transcriptions, but I wanted to have You know photos from every tour the drum set diagram from every tour and neil talking about the parts from all those songs and um And that that's that's basically what the idea developed into so these two books Which and I hope there's there's more I you know, it's fun to do them It takes a lot out of me to do them. Of course, but um, yeah, they're sort of like a combination of a of a Trans a scholastic transcription book of a survey of the artist's work combined with a coffee table book of full color photos and biographical information um Sort of like that's a great way to put it Yeah, and and and my dream was and and actually this thanks to neil this happened I wanted to make it so that if you didn't read music you would just buy it anyway because there was so much other cool Stuff in there if you were a fan Yeah, and and rush actually sold the book at the merch stands on their last two tours. Wow So, uh unbelievable, but that was yeah, let me ask you this. All right, so Let's get into actually working on it a little bit. So so what was your experience like? The first time you met your hero walking into a room and meeting neil, right? So, um That could go on a long time. So before I get into that i'm just going to say that um It's an interesting position to be in that i'm really thankful to be in and in no way do I in some ways I feel not qualified for which is When you approach someone Let's say you it's fresh in my mind approaching steward copeland You say hey, you know, we want to do something about you and we want to do a survey of your career and your work And we want to document in transcriptions and and store, you know Understandably might be like okay. Well, that's an honor. Who the f are you? Yeah, right? Um, sure and so The first step is you have to they have to like trust that you're the right person to do it. Yeah, and um So so that that was the first step Of getting when that was the first that's the first step in any of these projects you have to make it clear to the subject of the book that You know, they should they should be comfortable with you and you're qualified and you're going to do a good job of Of documenting them and now, you know now that I have a couple of things under my belt It's it's gotten a little easier, but even if i'm working on a biography So I I had the privilege of editing liberty davidos autobiography Similar task in you know, every time i'm editing with someone who I look up to like that i'm always like Kind of testing the waters like gee, you know, if I rewrite that sentence. Is it is he gonna get you angry at me? Yeah Yeah, and it's it's you know like You just have to it's like if you're playing on Broadway shows in New York Like you have to you have to come in at a high level every time. Sure, of course It's the same thing so and then and then if you Establish that then then they get your trust now. So you asked about how to happen with neil. So yeah, so the first step with neil was because he's so He was so reclusive and was so Private and rob already had a friendship with him rob knew that the first step was you know, like let's get joe to write a proposal and see if it even Catches any interests, you know, so I so I did that and I wanted it to be a survey of his work I knew full well that he didn't want to talk about you know, his thing back then was he didn't want to talk about any of the old Parts he was just tired of you know, if one more person asks me, how do you play the drum break in tom Sawyer? I'm gonna punch him in the face, right? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah So I knew he didn't want to talk about that. He was never interested in in revisiting the past, you know Um Yeah, yeah, and and that which which you know, I always I always found fascinating about rush You know, you had all these people who were like, I yeah, like the old stuff. I don't like anything after hemispheres I don't like anything after moving pictures. I don't like anything where they use the keyboard Well, they must have been doing something right because they filled arenas Yeah, until they're very late, you know, they never became an old exact. They stayed relevant Yeah, I mean, I think if any band is a band long enough There's always the their first album was better or their their last album was better kind of people where that just comes with the territory You know, there's right right no way around it So so I so I put something together and while I think neil didn't want to go back and necessarily talk about the old stuff like he He sensed that there was a real love and knowledge of his work And and maybe he would want to try to figure out a way to make it work And I was pretty amazed by that because I thought he didn't want to meet any of his fans and most of the time he didn't because You know, yeah It was uncomfortable for him a lot of the time that happened Yeah, there's a lot of people who like, you know um You know, I've met some famous people who can't get enough Of you know, they're just give me more adulation. You know, give me more adulation. Give me. Yeah um, and they It's a strange thing that happens to you when you're given that level of You know, you can start to drink your own own Kool-Aid quite easily, you know, yeah And you'll struggle against that. So so rob's like Why don't you meet joe and see if you might be comfortable working with him? So rob brought me to um Basically He he made my childhood dream come true He brought me to a rush concert and I met neil backstage on his bus There's nothing cooler than that. I mean seriously if my if my life story with neil ended that day, you know, I met him on his bus rob and neil caught up for a while and then he said Let's take joe out to the stage and show him the drums because it was soundcheck time Wow, so I got to walk in You know, I'm I'm walking in next and you know, neil has like a bubble around him backstage You know, no one can get near him. He's just sure private like that So I'm literally staring at him. I'm walking. I can't believe I'm walking in Backstage to a rush concert rush concert next to neil pier and then we get to the drums and he's like go ahead sit down And so, you know, we just started Talking drums talking shop, you know, and I can remember I sat down and I noticed that I his seat height was the same as mine Even though he was like a foot taller than me Yeah, and I said, you know, neil it's so funny We have the same seat height, but all the rest of your stuff is too high for me to reach And he's like, yes, I have a very long torso I was like, oh my god, he's just like I thought he was gonna be Oh, that's so cool. Wow. I mean and you're right about that bubble I think most people know this but you would know much better than me but from what I understand is he's not I think he fought the the the perception of being a mean guy But he wasn't it was just more of uh, I don't he was like shy It almost came off more to me Uh of like, I don't want to hear about how much you love tom soyer. You know what I mean? It was more just a uh He's not interested in all the fanfare. It wasn't a mean thing, right fair to say exactly right and um working with him It took a little while to get to a thesis of the book that he was comfortable with You know, I could go on about meeting him all day. I've told the story in other venues Um But anyway, he wanted to document his current way his his brainstorm was I don't want to talk about the old recordings, but if we can talk about the old songs And use the way I play them now Because he felt that his playing had developed then Then we can do that. So yeah taking center stage What it became was The documentation of his touring career with rush and playing the songs live And I went through every tour And documented the drum set for every tour. I reused his text from the tour books all in one place Got him to do new interviews about each thing But the transcriptions were of the time machine tour And it was a perfect tour to do it for because that that was a tour that they went from beginning They did a retrospective Pit played moving pictures in its entirety, but so it gave me a chance to go through and um In his case, that's how it was now for stewart and for anybody else that I would do the book with You know, they I don't think they would have that Issue or or you know perspective that neil had with stewart. We used the classic studio recordings Of the police Anyway, so that's so that's what taking center stage was it was it was a dream come true and and in the case of neil We became friends and so Yeah, which that's I mean it's It's just everything is you got to be a good hang and no matter no matter what you do and and people Uh, I mean drummers or people and it uh, they they want they need to trust you and like you as a person Which I think that's you should be which I'm sure you are very honored to have gotten on the inside and uh Get that respect from one of your idols. I mean it doesn't get much Better than that. It was you know, he he loved talking shop You know, it's funny people think he wasn't he I could ask him rush questions. He never He was fine with it. You know as long as it was it was coming from He loved the fact that I loved his work Yeah, you know And and he loved You know stories like we would trade drum drummer stories When I would tell him about being super nervous subbing on a Broadway show or You know not being able to follow a conductor playing with a symphony and I didn't you know He would laugh and just he would love it. He couldn't get enough of you know I'd be like I'm sitting here talking shop with Neil Peer. This is you know, but he yeah, but You know, I mean he probably he probably enjoys those stories too about about real deal Down in the trenches drumming as opposed to arena drumming in one of the biggest bands in the world it's we all still like hearing those stories of like Playing it. I mean not that playing on a Broadway show is like a bar gig But you know what? I mean it's it's working drummer every night hitting the road. He probably loves that I mean, it's he likes those stories. He did love it and I guess the last thing I'll say before we talk about the Stuart thing a little more is you know the There are a lot of things that set him apart in my mind from from other people I've met and one of the things was that he had that constant A lot of my heroes and my the guys I looked up to Have a constant desire to grow and get better and and as I've known them they have in in crazy ways I'll to name names for instance Steve Smith David Garibaldi John Riley You know three of the guys who I looked up look up to the most and have either studied with or Like for all intents and purposes studied with because I did a book with them And I you know, they made me do stuff with them that made me get there Neil did that and For a guy that was as worshiped as he was to To see he saw the flaws in his playing And he tried to address them and he he was just trying to get better And he he definitely had a humble outlook on it Whereas, you know, I think most players and I'm not saying one of these is right and one is wrong You know a lot of really big players would be like You know, well, okay, so I don't improvise a lot. I must be doing something right I won the rock drummer poll and modern drummer, but you know, it's like I pulled the lever and you know I won the jackpot every year. Yeah, I'm just gonna do what I do I mean, I think most people do that You know, yeah, you know and just as an example, you know, Bernard Purdy doesn't care that he can't play prog rock You know, why would he care? You know, he does what he does and that's his thing and he's made a career of it So, yeah, I see what you mean. Yeah. So anyway, he had that ability to or desire to get better and Yeah, and I want to say too that obviously I plan on doing a biography episode On Neil Peart because I think everyone wants to hear that But I need to find the exact that the the which I'm sure you could probably do it But like it needs to be an hour and a half to vote devoted just to Neil's childhood and all this stuff. So at some point that will happen on the podcast But so let's talk Stuart. I love Neil Peart. I love Stuart Copeland, too But I growing up I just loved the police I loved that islandy kind of vibe but with, you know, the rhythms and all that stuff And he has such an interesting background with, you know, the way he was raised So Talk about Stuart a little bit and working with him and all that stuff so You know having rob at a Hudson music has You know, we both still have a really deep passion for all these artists and bands that we like Excuse me And as we thought about Hudson music has documented so many amazing drummers When we think about someone who has the body of work and the Interests or You know detail of their full persona as a drummer, you know, we try to think of for a book like this Who who has that sort of full package of like the vibe and and and so Stuart was an obvious choice because He you know, he's just instantly Identifiable The band was, you know, his body of work was just so well known by everyone and so iconic and so different You know, he's he's sort of one of the Signature people of his time Totally and and you know, he's like looking back now It's it's interesting to look back and see that You know, the people who maybe you talk to rock drummers and you realize everyone was influenced by him, you know Yeah, other guys, you know, you're hearing the same thing now about alex van halen You know people like he's an unsung hero. Well, not anymore like every rock drummer friend of mine. We're all like, oh man alex Yeah, he's pretty sung but I do agree though where he alex van halen is a guy though where maybe Uh, he doesn't come up first in your conversation but stewart copeland's interesting because I think he does come up first in your conversation, but He's different from neil where neil you think of yyz and this long solo that everyone has watched on youtube 10 million times But with stewart You think of his interesting rhythms and his interesting sounds and his style and just the look of him and right tall And lanky with short shorts and that big kind of cushion on the side of his snare Yeah, I have to say another thing was like, you know, watching mtv and getting glimpses of his drum set I I love The fact that he like I was like, oh, look at that. He's oh, he has only one bass drum But he has one of those long tube things sticking out. Yeah, the octabons. Yeah, what are those little things? He's got all these tiny little are those symbols in the front. What are those tiny little things in the front? you know, it's like Our instrument is so, you know geared to your personality Yes, and I you know, I love it's cool that so many people play a four-piece kit with one ride the minimal thing I get it. It's cool. I like a drums like I love looking going, you know being At a drum festival like Simon Phillips's kit, you know, you read my mind I mean, it's like it's impressive and they're all tama guys, which you're a tama guy So, I mean that has to influence a little bit of that. Yeah, you know when it comes to my endorsements tama savey and especially But but tama, I mean Thank god they like me, you know, I mean I really do like them the best. I mean, it's pretty honest, bro You know, it's sure but anyway, um, yeah, so I Stuart was always a favorite drummer of mine I never analyzed his drumming as deeply and I knew I was in for a lot of work with this project because um There was always something in the I would try to figure the songs out and I I was like wait a minute like Why am I hearing the snare the hi-hat and the crash all at the same time? Like something yeah, like man, this guy's doing some stuff I I don't know what's going on So I would I would try to learn it then and then later on on certain tunes like, um on synchronicity synchronicity was Oddly enough was the first record. I really dissected from him. Um, some of the tunes where Like king of pain or something or robbed around your finger Yeah, you know, I those I could clearly hear, you know, what was going on But but if I put on synchronicity too and you heard, you know That like I was like wait a minute You know in passing you're like he's playing some hi-hat openings and then you go back and like wait a minute That's not those are not that's a symbol. He's choking the symbol Oh, the hi-hat's still go and then it's like how is this physically possible? I mean he really is like an octopus kind of drummer where it's how is this happening? Right. So what so what I discovered so we started getting into the depths of things and so in this case of stewart um, we we there's a process in reaching out to any of these these artists that um You know, you want to make sure they have to see out your other work You know, we'll send them a copy of the neil book and some of the other books that we did and and I'll be honest We, you know, I wanted to do this with alex van halen too alex if you're listening, you know Get the storybook if you still want to do it, you know But you you you approach and usually you get a nice respectful answer. Sometimes there's no interest, you know So in the case of stewart, we actually tried years ago And we tried again. We thought maybe with the pandemic maybe he's at home And maybe he has time for us to interview him and and it worked out So, uh, so it was a different experience Then meeting neil like once once he was into it We had an initial zoom meeting with him and I started doing a lot of research. I started going back To make a proposal from where I went back and listened to all the police albums And I made a song list And then I tried to look at some of the other things that he had done And you know, we always have to send in a proposal and we and so he found it enticing and then we had a zoom meeting And then in the zoom meeting I You know, it was pretty wild because I got to be on zoom with steward copeland I still have the recording saved and you're can't delete them, you know It's like it's like the the voicemails of my son when he was lind daughter when they were little and my beyond zoom was stewart, you know But your children and stewart that's what you're most important thing Um, but he so in this in the case of stewart I was learning things as we As we went along and of course the the book and you know, I'll hold it up for those who are listening on the podcast You know, it was the same sort of thing like I wanted to have historical photos and document his tours and It's just it's awesome color pictures I mean, it's like you can sit down and just on your couch and read a drum book And look at these amazing photos and see his and actually I mean, it's I don't know. There's something that's that's something with the internet that you kind of like take advantage Or you forget how important it is to not just google image search stewart copeland But to sit there where the book is pretty cool and like to zoom in is to bring the book closer to your face Right. I I actually think you hit the nail on the head Like I I imagine the coolest experience of somebody, you know going through one of these books is It's like, oh, you're not cool. Like here's, you know, oh Ghost in a machine Yeah, and and they put the record on while they're reading this text right here and then absolutely and then With my you know listening putting on the recording and listening along Is I think the main thing I hope people would do if you want to go down to the shed and and and play some of it That's cool too And so so as a result like just from a teaching perspective my students Like this isn't the kind of thing where I'm it's like you go through it paid to back like a method book This is this is something It's it's something I wished I had as a kid listening to these guys You know, it's it's like it's like a fun It's like it's like a combination of a learning tool and going to the Yankee game and buying the yearbook You know what I mean? Yeah, exactly It's just geek out and look at the pictures and and like we said before these are both drummers that have very impressive large unique drum sets they both have interesting Like what's that thing? Oh, I've never seen that You know like though you said those little kind of tiny symbols with steward. It's like You know and then I like with modern drummer We all love the diagram of the drums in the corner that has the list of Uh, what they're playing. I mean, that's it's it's so much more than just I mean, we love the personality of these drummers and the background So plus it's just a really well made book just you holding it up. You can see it's it's a nice book Yeah, they're they're they're heavy and they feel nice, but you know You're making me think about, you know, there's a risk with all this too because you're excuse me There's a risk with all this because you're documenting the artist's work. So I I had transcribed every little thing she does is magic by hand And and I started to so the big thing about steward any big fan of his knows like there's he uses digital delay on the recordings and I didn't realize How much he used it as an instrument in the studio Um And so as I was interviewing him I transcribed every little thing she does is magic and I knew there was a delay I listened to it enough times to have figured that out and um as part of our proposal I sent him the transcription. He's like I want to see, you know Because stewart unlike a lot of other of these famous drummers He composes for symphonies and he does his own charts. Yeah, yeah for sure So he actually sent it back like a college paper. He corrected a couple things in red and then he graded it He gave me an a it's in my permanent. Yeah, awesome. That's in my scrapbook. He's so awesome. Wow, but as You know, we worked with him. He's he's wonderful and he and he's um He he and neil were such good friends, you know, and they had such different personalities Like stewart will get, you know, right up in like, you know, and I told sting not to do You know, you get like right up in there and um and uh, but as we were going through And I was learning about his background a couple things learning about the delay and then being able to document it He would explain to me what he did on certain tracks And then I would have to go back with my transcribing team To reanalyze recordings to try to make sure we were getting it right. So for walking on the moon he he wanted I said, well, maybe we should just write out what you actually played and he said no That's like I was hearing the delay and I was playing because I was feeling and knowing what I would create So I want every note documented. So You're saying that like, okay. So so what he played obviously We all know that then the addition of delay would make it sound completely different, you know Through the the headphones are actually through the master bus or whatever Uh, he would want you to document the sound with the delay Correct. So so and by the way, you know, he he set up the delay would be going live Like his tech jeff cites would turn it on. Oh cool. So so He would and he would get that back in his monitor So he he wasn't just using it as a studio trick and he wasn't trying to replicate it by playing live It was actually being done by so so what we did was I we did it a couple ways in the book the the main way we did it was we have a special note head That's in parentheses that represents a note that was played by the delay Okay, so because because they because they overlap. So so the the walking on the moon chart I was you know, actually mike sarantino my good buddy great professional drummer from new york I have I have other transcribers that i'll get to work with me now because the writing part is so time consuming And why not share the the fun of these with my my some of my good peers and the guys I really love working with so Mike and I were like this thing's going to look like hieroglyphics or you know, and he's like I just wanted to be documented So sit down and and and watch You know just follow it and you can see all the notes that are there And then for some of the tunes where he did overdubs You know like message in a bottle has a ton of overdubs. We we actually did two stays like like a like a grand staff So that you can see we're like let's let's just make this If you know not not an amalgamation of what you could do as a drummer, you know, there's other books that do that Let's let's actually say what let's try to document what everything he actually did like yeah geek out to the to the end So it's like here's the overdub line and here's the basic line and he checked all that stuff You know, of course his memory. It's gone back 30 40 years Yeah, yeah, that's fascinating because you listen to some of these albums and you you you may say like That sounds like an overdub, but you don't know but now that you're actually doing it It's so cool to have it documented like oh no, it's an overdub It this is what he's playing so maybe possibly it's not Physically possible to do it all in one go Where as like you're saying where some books might kind of do like this is what it would sound like if you smash them together Right, it's really cool. You're like you're like being very pure. You're like, this is what it was Which is awesome that like so how Leonard has all those play along books out and they're really wonderful And they have sound to like recordings So if you want a message in a bottle chart to play on your gig that's yeah Paired down to a five-piece set with no overdubs. You can you can go find that stuff And then the other thing is you know in in all these books There's a lot of front material like in Stuart's case telling his story Being born in America but brought up in the Middle East in Lebanon and Cairo, Egypt Really factored into his his playing style And coming out coming out in ways that weren't even Conscious to him like it was just how he was programmed And so when we started when I got to the final almost the final draft of the book You know, he read through it and he sent me an email back saying hey man, you know I think you know, everyone knows I like reggae and he told the story about it a lot But he's like you you went way overboard on the reggae you you haven't documented my middle eastern influence is enough You know, and it was like, oh, okay I thought I did mention it, but I I clearly you know, so Yeah, my my the fact that somebody like Stuart Copeland would would trust me to you know, you You have they have to be You know comfortable and then so I had to respond to that and I was like, oh Yeah, I did I did miss that and I went back to the interviews and I watched them again and And I rewrote, you know, he felt like there was a couple of tunes where he was like you you mentioned this as a reggae thing But one was spirits in the material world, right? So when he's playing here, you know, I hate to do it So like that that I'm hearing the snare the bass drum as the backbeat even though it's double time And and I'm like, you know, again that sort of like ska reggae thing and he was like in that case you shouldn't say that there You should listen to the baladi rhythm from lebanon because I think that was actually what was in my head for that So, uh, so yeah, it's it's pretty fascinating. Uh, and then let me hold I'll hold the book up again. Um Again because he was so Into his gear there's a big section on gear and I wanted to go back and Bring that like the ads from my child like old pasty and tama ads from, you know, we there's all that research too in addition to the uh to the drum set diagrams, so Which I think I mean all this stuff again Book let's just say that's awesome seat. So okay, so joe's holding up a diagram of beautiful diagram of his setup and Just again versus, you know, let's say book versus internet What you're doing though is again putting all of this together where you can find ads of stewart copeland online But to have them all in one place that you're actually physically holding when you're You know, not just sitting on your computer is a really important thing Uh to see his gear and what he was using and and I don't think you need to be a stewart fanatic to be into this I think it's uh, you know and It's it seems like a good gift for like a drummer. You know what I mean? It was actually a christmas time. I you know, I and I do you know, I do sell them on my website I do sign copies. I I don't you know stewart signed some for hudson But yeah, I was really flattered like people came on my site and it's joe bergamini.com if anyone's interested You know and ordered like friends of mine and and um Teachers and people I know, you know ordered like christmas gifts for their husband Joe, can you sit sign that you know? So yeah, it is it is awesome. And and you know what like It's not to say Internet research is I did some internet research, you know, of course like when I was looking for photos like people it's all of the Ins and outs that go into actually putting the stuff in print You know, I I went in search for photos and I I was like, oh, there are photos in existence From monsoorot when they were recording ghost in the machine. I found them online Who took those photos you can't print them in a book unless you get clearance for the photo So like yeah, I mean every photo you see Required, you know, if I wanted the old tama ad You know, that's easy. I know the guys at tama like do you have an archive? They don't have everything in the archive, but they have a bunch of things in the archive So so with photos just doing the photo research for it You know and Stuart sent me to jeff sites his tech Who believe it or not texted me during while we were doing this interview jeff. Oh, he's such a wonderful guy And and and so, you know jeff went to stings tech Danny quattrochi and and Danny had those pictures of stewart in the studio Wow, and so Danny helped us out. So Yeah, I I wish and and hope that I could do I do have a couple more people in mind. I don't want to Jinx us and tell yeah say who we're approaching but uh Yeah, and and like I said, it takes a lot out of me. So I I don't know that I could do one of these every six months No, but it's an important Let's I mean Do you consider it like a series? You know what? I mean these types of books. Obviously, they're not really related But I see I feel like if you do more and more of them then you could have a catalog of these particular kind of artist spotlight Transcription books. It's really, you know, you know, they they work together. It's funny. I hope this doesn't come out sounding corny, but like I I feel like I've noticed as I've you know, I'm in my 50s now and uh I as I've gotten older I realized, you know, I I have a recorded body of original work. I haven't you know The two bands that were really forefront and happy the man with these prog bands Neither one is active anymore Um And I still have an output as a player, of course Sure, but I've noticed my my teaching practice my teaching businesses. It's like It's mine. I love it. I feel it's I I put a lot into it. I you know, uh My students I take very seriously when someone invests in studying with me and and it's like kind of a thing I built for myself and I really love it. Yeah, these books and this is the part I hope it doesn't set like I feel like it's my it's an album. I made an album. It's like my album. Absolutely, you know, absolutely I don't know. No, I think so too. I mean, it's your Uh For you personally, I I mean, I feel I feel the same way with an episode that took a long time to get booked And we did and it was great and now it's out and it's my baby But it's the same thing where you did so much work on these books and you spent so much time with your heroes And it's such an experience for you that yeah, you should feel like that. I mean, it's it's great I'll be totally honest what even with neil or steward like when I finished and the thing was out I was like, oh, thank god. I'm not doing that again, you know, and then like, you know Yeah, so you know six months go by and you're like, oh man, I gotta do I should you know, and then I'm getting I'm so lucky. I get you know emails from from drummers and fans, you know Like, hey, man, what's your next thing going to be the store things a masterpiece? Who are you going to do next? And I'm like, I gotta do another one. That's awesome. But I there's there's There's certain people that uh, I think if you know me, you could probably guess who I would who I would want to do it with But there's there's so many You know one of the people that I'll say this one Um, we we did gathamates with Hudson music and um, we got to work Steve did that the pandemic was a catastrophe for the music business But I have to say I don't know if the steward book or gathamates would exist if it weren't for the pandemic I mean, yeah, Steve was at home playing and he's given us this wonderful Um, for those who can see I'll hold up the cover of that gathamates. Yeah So steve was at home and he wanted to he was just practicing and He documented it and now we have this wonderful book Um, for me that was a another out-of-body experience because Yeah, rob wallis and I were on zoom with steve and steve would make me play the stuff It's like, yeah, man. Can you just play I just want to make sure it feels okay. And I'm like No pressure. Yeah, I'm like you said can you just play it man? I'm like Like right now. Yeah. Yeah. I'm like, oh my god, like, you know, but anyway, um, we we We've been talking with steve about doing this with him, you know documented. Can you imagine asia? 50 ways and you know, yeah, and spain, you know, all the stuff. He's done chick and it's endless. It's endless Yeah, you know, then he went back on the road and he doesn't have you know, have time But I'm hoping that someday, you know, we could do a wonderful thing like this with steve. Yeah Yeah, I mean, you're not I was in the same boat I used to do the podcast every other week and then I started doing it weekly and it it made it changed everything and You feel weird saying that the pandemic made things kind of easier in certain ways or better like that But it definitely it ruined a lot of things and made things terrible. But I think You and musicians a lot of us had to find ways to like Make it work and That's a You know, there's benefits to it. I guess to having the time to do it If you keep yourself moving forward, you know, I started teaching on zoom and skype. Well, actually not really zoom I I kind of I I will admit I'm sometimes a little slow to move to the next platform So but I had been teaching online for for several years And so when the pandemic came I was just next day everyone you're on zoom, you know tomorrow zoom or skype and It worked fine. I mean, I I I feel horrible for everyone who you know, I I hate that we I couldn't play I was I was desperate to play music with other human beings But on the other hand, you know, I taught four days a week And I kind of tell you about no one had missed a lesson all of 2020. No one missed it. No, everyone was just home They had nothing to do. You know, yeah, so can I have two lessons this week now? Yeah, I'm bored, please for the love of god Right. Yeah. No, and I think that that's you know, the stories of people doing good stuff is great as opposed to You know, I mean everyone lost work everyone that which was terrible but um So on the topic of work here, joe I mean that that all is fascinating and we should say rest in peace to Neil Because I mean my god, what a loss. I think that goes without saying that If you if you haven't seen at Hudson, we have a really nice tribute page To him and uh, I wrote I wrote a eulogy and that's the only place I I posted it But um, if you haven't seen that page, maybe maybe go there, but uh, I miss him a lot as a friend And as yeah, you know as a drummer very beautiful. Yeah So let's talk about you as we wrap up here. Um, you obviously said joe bergamini.com bergamini Right. There you go. Nice. Love that So you play with the duot project you've played with a ton of Broadway shows I mean, you're just the definition of a working drummer who who makes it kind of in a with the books in the industry and you play Um, just talk about you and what you got going on and all that cool stuff Some people call it a working drummer. Other people call it a masochist. No So, uh, yeah, I um I started uh playing on Broadway shows in 2003 with the show moving out Which which was um, still all my brothers were friends to this day I still do a lot of stuff in this sort of billy joe tribute world um And then I joined a progressive rock band called happy the man with dave rosenthal who's uh billy's musical director now So so Broadway led to a lot of other great things. I continued subbing on many shows had had a lot of great adventures um, including subbing for tommy. I go at lion king Wow another Brother of mine who who I love dearly and andres ferrero at in the heights and a little bit at hamilton not too much jersey boys kevindow school of rock ari seligson beautiful clinton gannon all of these Gentlemen are Like i'm honored to try to play as well as they can play. I you know, I think I did a good job I didn't get can anywhere. Uh, so um, there you go anyway, I uh Over the course of doing um these shows, you know, you get other gigs you meet great players and so I uh I fell into at first subbing and then Having the chair with the do our project. It's five singers They met doing the shows jersey boys in motown And the musical director who's become one of my one of my closest buddies and uh, I love dearly is Sonny paladino I met sonny Subbing for clint again and at jesus christ superstar and then I played with him again subbing for charrod shonig at um Another amazing drummer at pippin And so sonny and our buddies and then I subbed, you know clint was the original drummer in the do our project I subbed uh on that gig And and then eventually it led to me taking over the chair full time So uh, so I've been with them probably It's gonna be a decade before you know it. I think it's eight years now. I've been wow chair and um Before the pandemic we had worked it up to a hundred dates a year And uh, it's you know, it's it's it's a it's a really fun gig You know, it's such a far cry from what I got known for in a very small way earlier. I'm playing odd meters and you know Yeah, prog rock. This is all groove Um, it's traditional duop 60s and 70s r&b and some current, you know more modern material they sort of like revamped this duop One of the biggest challenges is we have we have At this point we have four different symphony shows that we do So, you know, we've we've I've played with you know a dozen of the biggest You know, I played news eve of the baltimore symphony the week week before christmas of the nipples philharmonic in florida Um, still a bit of a nerve-wracking experience for me. I I didn't go to college for music I sort of learned it all on the job. I'm sure wow. So yeah, so I tour with them and um, it's just a wonderful band of brothers now and um It's you know, it's it's it's um I always wanted to be touring in a band and strangely enough earlier when I was younger You know, I was mainly working around new york subbing and um, you know, I had my chances to do tours never Some of them weren't really up my alley for different reasons But uh, yeah, now i'm doing it and if you if you told me when I was uh, you know When I was 20 if you told me that, you know, you'll be in your 40s and you'll be Uh playing in beijing standing on the great wall with a duop group. You I would have said you're freaking crazy, but that's how That's so cool, man. I mean you're you're um You're the real deal. Um, obviously seeing your clinics at at pay sick and stuff, uh, and and But you're all about the next generation I think it's it's fair to say about teaching and spreading it on uh to the the future generations And one thing I think too is just neat is your I've seen you around a few times and your son is usually with you Yeah, which I think is super cool and he's see I I didn't get a chance to meet him But he seems like a nice guy. Um, his name is his name is nick and um, you know, he's always been around the drums just I You know, honestly, I like I I wouldn't I'm so lucky. I mean I I'm a workaholic. I mean I My work ethic would probably kill a lot of people. I just I have to always be doing something. Um, so what I do I think is I don't give up on things easily and I and I work really hard and but I love it I'm having fun and my son, you know, nick's been around this His whole life and he we just he likes it's so funny. I'm like nick You got to listen to some younger bands man. He listens all the same stuff I do Genesis and todo and rush and the police He does listen to younger stuff, but of course it kind of like I gotta say As he became in high school and he got more and more into drumming It kind of crept up on me. He's like, yeah, I want to I want to do what you do pop, you know And I was like, oh man, like I never Pushed him to you know, I never said to myself, you know, my boy's gonna do what I do, you know So the fact that he's gravitated towards it. I just it's so awesome, you know, and yeah So now we go, you know, he's in college for music. He's he's playing. He's working his way up. He's Doing some other things, you know in the industry with with you know, me and my other companies to learn those things and You know, we went to see Genesis play this farewell tour that they did And uh, phil Collins sadly is not playing drums anymore He sits in a chair at the front, but his son nick is the drummer and nick is a beast He's just so good. He plays so great And so i'm there with my son nick and phil, you know at the genesis show when nick plays the hard stuff and like Forth of fifth and behind the lines. He just turns around. He just looks at his son and you can just feel the pride And i'm there with my son and it's just like that's the best dad son thing. So when we go to basic, you know It's like, you know, all the guys like nick is one of the cats now all my friends, you know Yeah, yeah, it's funny because he sat in with the do our project He did it at one of our gigs sonny and the guys are so great They're like, oh, you can't do the gig send nick, you know So he sat in and sonny had been waiting for like a month to do this And he's like, you know, they say there's to the audience He's like they say there's these stages of musicians life, you know Four stages of the drummer's career stage one. Who's joe bergamini stage two get me joe bergamini Stage three get me a young joe bergamini and stage four. Who's joe bergamini, right? So it's like we're in stage three. Here's joe's son to come out and play. That's hysterical. Yes That's so funny, but I mean you have like a built-in drum buddy now I mean, you know what I mean like that's and my my son is two But of course I have a little Ludwig set for him and like we have the piano and guitars And when he sits down puts his little headphones on and starts playing and just screaming the abc's it's like Yeah, you know, he can do whatever he wants. He can be uh, you know an accountant if he wants, but I'm like, of course I'm like, yes play the drums Yeah, it's I think you know with teaching With my son. It's magnified, but you know, I've had the honor and and and responsibility really of teaching many people Who I they came to me in sixth, seventh, eighth or ninth grade Studied with me all through high school and want to be drummers and many of them are, you know, I'm proud to say But um, you know, I always feel that it's not easy to do this, you know And so I feel it magnified with my son, you know, I think he's gonna be okay I It's it's I think in a lot of ways it's been on my mind that um, some of the things that I did To make my mark that I described in this very interview are not They don't produce income now Matt you magazines, you know writing monitor would send me a check for a couple hundred bucks every time I wrote an article So there's ways I think to do it that I don't know because I'm not the younger generation, you know, um But yeah, they they have to figure out what what those ways are and and and I as a I'm skeptical of some of the things I hear um Maybe I'm wrong about some of them, you know, like, you know, if you if you post all your videos on on the internet You know for free, you'll make a lot of money from the ads There's probably someone listening to this that says, you know, you're a knit wit you can get rich doing that. Okay I don't know. I mean I'm from being I don't know doing the podcast and now trying to get more into youtube I can say kind of like, you know, I guess uh bluntly or whatever you can make some money But it it takes a long time you have to have A thousand subscribers and you have to have I think 10,000 views before you can even make a dollar Right, and then you have to make a hundred dollars before they'll even send you a check I mean it is not like I'm gonna put up all my videos and then I'm going to quit my job It's like right. Well, you know, I guess the point is this not not for me to be an old guy and say what works and doesn't work, but what the I guess My version of you know Going to the namsho and going to basic and networking and meeting people and trying to figure out different income streams and Trying to learn what produces income and trying to drum up work and going out and recruiting students and That is none of that's changed. Maybe the maybe the way you do it has changed But um and and and it might be a little it might be a little harder You know, yeah, like they say if you teach on zoom The world is your potential uh student base That's that's great. Maybe it's not so great that Those same people can evaluate taking lessons instead of with the young or new person. They can go to You know anyone Dave Weckel. Yeah, right, right, right. Yeah, right. Yeah. All right. Well, actually that's a good point there So so uh on the taking of online lessons You teach online lessons So you can you're obviously if someone listening to this show wants to take a lesson with the great Joe Bergamini How do they go about doing so? I I have a if you go onto my website, which you mentioned before Um, I just have a little link there that uh It says you can message me and there's one that actually says lessons and uh, okay I get those those emails come right to my personal email and um I'm a little booked these days, but I always find ways to fit people. So Yeah, yeah, that's awesome. Um, no, and I think it's important and and and obviously you're a very Uh well-versed teacher who I think can can get people and you have a really nice setup folks listening You know the podcast can't really see it, but you have a beautiful setup with multicam, you know operation and and all this stuff. So you're you're getting the uh highest quality, um Experience from what I can tell I appreciate that and and I do I do you know In addition to the traditional weekly drum lesson thing I I do get asked a lot to do Career consultations or even just people who want to learn about the publishing business or all the other things I do They'll book, you know a session for an hour or two or a couple, you know There's no needing to commit to like any kind of thing, you know, if yeah, um, so Uh, and yeah, yeah So I you know somebody's like if somebody's listening to this and they're like I want to play Broadway I'll I'll book a lesson with joe, you know That that something like that requires me to You know, I can't tell you if you have a chance until I know a lot about how you play Yeah, so that so that's not, you know, there's FYI, there's no secret Yeah, ain't no secret. It's hard work. Yeah, it's work. That's the same thing with anything you're doing is it's it's hard work But thanks for mentioning that I appreciate it. Yeah, absolutely. And joe before we wrap up here Do you want to talk a little bit about the sabian education network? Um, which I know you're very involved in and proud of thank you. Um, yeah, so A few years back, you know, after sort of getting known with all the educational things I do and having done a lot of clinics and Um, sabian having supported me through all that for many years um, they invited me they they It's been, you know, sort of known and I think maybe sabian might have done some some research to really show it Clearly that drum teachers have a huge influence Probably bigger than any endorser on all the people they teach And um, sabian being a company that supports education Wanted to create some kind of place for the teachers to come together and um and gather and and You know, they invited me to kind of try to design something for that And uh, I kind of envisioned Going to my first basic shows and meeting up with all these different drum teachers You know, I had a couple of friends and they had a couple of friends the next thing You know, we're in a bar having a beer in nashville and and we're like, hey man, you know, what's your name? I'm steve. I live in seattle. Like, oh man, what do you use to teach beginner jazz? So I I use the Chapin book. Oh, oh, yeah, but this kind of hard. What do you, you know Your chance, you know, my student canceled on short notice and I lost money. What did you, you know? Oh, you got to have a policy, you know, like talking about running a business recruiting students What books to use and I wanted to replicate that so we've been at it for a few years now It's thousands strong. It's called the sabian education network If you teach drums You're welcome to join you don't have to you should be a bona fide teacher But you only if you only have one or two students you fill out a little application you can go to Sabian ed so it's sabian s a b i a n ed like education sabian ed dot com and there's a little application and You have access to like a forum and Online resources a member's only website and we do we do some live streaming that's public But we've been doing a lot of private classes like yesterday Don family don't familiar and I did a class about using drum books and developing a curriculum It was actually part three, but I've done classes for drum notation in finale I've had David Garibaldi and other huge endorsers do private courses. So it's a Yeah, it's kind of a club for lack of a better word for drum teachers You don't have to be a sabian artist or exclusive player to join It's just there to kind of Spread the love among teachers. So sabian ed.com is the sabian education network I'm kind of the pied piper of it. So if you want to follow me over the cliff come on and That's awesome Joe, uh, all right, so this has been awesome And um everyone listening joe is going to be kind enough to take a couple extra minutes after we wrap up The main episode and record a little patreon bonus episode where we're going to talk about You know tips and tricks on being a working new york drummer, which I think You know, we haven't done that yet, but I'm assuming those those tips and tricks can apply to a drummer in Cincinnati or a drummer in, uh, you know, wherever Nashville a big city a small city anywhere. So, um Joe's gonna do that if you want to hear those episodes you can go to drumhistorypodcast.com and click the patreon link and two bucks a month and up All the way up to the the higher tier like my friend the great john de christopher who's awesome and helped out but um Yeah, joe Thank you so much for doing this. It's an honor to meet you And thanks again for being nice to uh, 22 year old me and uh, when I sent you a Absolutely ridiculous email trying to be to make a book when I had no, uh reason to do so So, um, Joe, thank you for being here and taking the time to do this It's been my pleasure Bart and uh, and your your younger self is welcome Thank you