 Hi, and welcome to today's Healthy Marriage. I'm your host, Charlene Lamers, Executive Director for Great Marriages for Sheboygan County. Today our topic is Christian Marriage Counseling, and I'd like to welcome our guest, Cindy Teshan. She is a Christian Life Coach. Hi, welcome, Cindy. Thank you. Thank you for joining us on Healthy Marriage. Thank you. So can you tell us a little bit about what a life coach is, what you do, and how long you've been doing it? I've been doing this for about 18 months, and what I specifically do is I minister to couples, individuals, whether it's children of all ages, teenagers, and I coach them through issues. I help them to learn how to communicate from the heart, learn how to speak from the heart. Sometimes it's so easy for us to just say, I hurt, and not describe it. And so my goal is to get them to talk from the heart and what that looks like. So I will give them tools and coach them on. What influenced you to get into this field? Why did you want to be a life coach? I have experienced being married for 37 years, raising five children, working in the medical field, being a pastor's wife. I've been blessed with life issues. I've been blessed with junk, and I've had to unpack my own junk, and that has allowed me to be able to give to others the tools that have worked in my own marriage or worked in my relationship with my children or other people that I've worked with. So my passion is just from my mistakes to share with others. You don't want to go there. Let me show you and try it this way. Okay. Who do you see as a counselor? Do you see people from your church? Do you see people from in the community? I see people from all over. People within the church, it's a word of mouth. People within the community, people outside of the state of Wisconsin. I will do phone counseling, Skype. So it's a variety and it's very diversified. So it's very, I'm very, very open to who I see and who comes to me. So yes, I'm here in the community and then beyond. I think that Skype is very interesting. I've not heard that one before, so I suppose, you know, using technology to help people. Absolutely. We've used Skype. My son was in the military and gone overseas and you're able to communicate and see my grandchildren that way and talk. So yeah, with the new technology and with our younger generation, they're so used to it. So it's an awesome tool to be able to see the face, to be able to see what's going on and to make eye contact where doing it by phone, it takes a lot of concentration on my part to really understand and hear what's beyond the pain of what the individual is sharing with me or the issue that they want help with. Some of our audience may not be familiar with Skype. Can you just maybe explain that to them? They're going, what are they talking about? Skype is a computer technology, I don't know if I'm going to use the right words, where there's a little webcam and I can see them on my computer screen and they can see me on their computer screen. So we can either call through the computer or it's usually calling through the computer, whether it's Skype or Google. There's all kinds of abilities to call. And then we can talk and we can talk for hours and I can look. So it's kind of like counseling through the computer and... Yeah, but I find it interesting because it's in real time. Right. Absolutely. It's right here and now as we're having this conversation, if we were on Skype, I could be seeing you and you would see me as we're having this conversation. I can't touch you or hug you when you're crying or you need to touch or hug. I can't do that but I can do it with my words and my voice so it's a good tool. A lot of what we do with couples also, you're watching them, you're seeing their interaction with each other. You're seeing their facial responses, your understanding if they're upset, if they're crying, if they're understanding what's happening in the moment. So it is very important really to get those visuals and to have that contact. That body language to be able to not just hear the voice but see what the body language is saying to me and to each other. I mean, what is that? I was saying the part of communication that's actual words is what? Ten percent or something. Yeah. And the rest of it is body language, eye contact. Right. Absolutely. All of it. You've been married 37 years. 37 years to John. So how has what you've learned as a person who's been married 37 years, how does that make you able to communicate with these couples and share your experiences? What have you learned and what do you find yourself sharing the most? You work with couples, right? Yeah, absolutely. What I do is what I have learned to do is to be transparent and vulnerable in my own marriage. And share my own where I have failed and where John and I have learned to connect at the heart. So in the 37 years, I've learned to learn who I am. I'm a very independent woman, but that doesn't do very well in a marriage because I can be a strong independent woman. And so that's an example where I will share and say I'm learning to be interdependent upon my husband, independence, there's nothing wrong with it. But when I put walls up and push him away, there's where I will run into problems. So I just take my own life experiences 37 years being married at 16 and John 18. We did a lot of emotionally having to grow up. So I can draw upon the resources of my own personal experience and say, yeah, I've been married 37 years. It's been hard, but it was worth it. Probably the last three years has been more of like giving birth to a new marriage. And so we are laboring together and we're breathing through this together and knowing that pain is good and it brings about change and in that change brings growth. And yeah, there's been times when I've run away from that pain and say, I don't like the way that feels, but I've learned to see that pain is a positive thing. And both of John and I have gone through painful situations and embrace them and use that as a leverage in our own marriage to bring about change and good change. We talk about that at great marriages. You know, we have couples who come in and have been married 20 years, 25, 30, 35, 40 years. And, you know, they're struggling. And sometimes when we're struggling at the point that we are at, we feel like this is not good. If this is the way it's going to be, and this is what it's going to be for the rest of my life, I don't want to do this. I want out. So they consider divorce or contemplate getting out of the marriage. And we try to help them to see the pain or the struggle that you're having at this current time, maybe part of the seven stages of marriage. It's something all marriages go through. There are tough times that anybody who's been married any length of time knows that we all face. So it's temporary. When you're in it, it feels like it's forever. It feels like it's not going to end. And this is the way it's going to be. But those of us who have been on the other side of that know that as you put it, I've not heard that way. And that's a great way to put it, a rebirth into your marriage, because you do fall back in love. You do find these really wonderful times on the other side of the struggling, troubled times that if you give up, you'll never make it to the good stuff. Absolutely. And learning to fight for connection and how we communicate for connection and distance, you can't always stay connected. It's not healthy. So we cycle through kind of like a figure eight. We disconnect, we connect. And in our disconnect time, it's usually when it's like that's our normal feeling. I don't want to fight anymore. I'm done with this marriage. But that's where we have to push through, because then we fight for connection, because we know what it's like to be connected now. And it's worth it because it takes so much energy to be disconnected emotionally from our spouse that it just wears you out. So I tell my clients and myself that it's a normal process. We need to connect and disconnect and connect and disconnect. And in that disconnect time is that pain and new growth comes. And in that connect time, we kind of are able to float and go, oh, this is good. And then something else comes in. Now this isn't good. And so it's awesome to be able to connect and disconnect and line that tension up and say, OK, how are we going to do this? Right. And we talk about that, too. You know, the first stage of marriage is passion. So it's all wonderful and fuzzy and warm. And everyone's in love. And it's when you look at this young couple and they're holding hands and everything's great. And not just a young couple. I mean, we have a couple who got married for a second time. Their spouses died in their late 70s. And they just cute holding hands and just that in love feeling. And then for a lot of people, like you said, you have children, you have the job, you have the mortgage payment. You have life. You have two different families that you're trying to infuse together, his side, her side. What do we bring in? What can we toss out? How do we infuse ourselves? And after that passion, after the honeymoon period is over with, that's where the rubber meets the throat and you really are working it out. And that's a good time to have some good, solid tools on how do I talk to my spouse and use my words to pull them into my heart instead of pushing them away. And so many times we don't think what we're saying to each other of, you know, that hurt and you pushed me away. But how do we communicate and take those tools and this is the way I was raised. So I see it this way and this is the way you were raised. Neither are wrong. Both are right. But how can we work it together? We talk about that great marriage as you know, that's a rebellion stage you've been married. But now you're realizing you really are trying to make this work and you're bringing your experiences, how you were raised and the family that you grew up and I'm bringing mine, you know, and we're getting together and we're clashing. And things like finances, one saves, one's a spender or you both save, but you save different amounts, you know, and how are you going to make that work? And the disciplining of children is huge. You know, you say, well, yeah, we're going to discipline and be strict. But what is strict to one is not strict to the other. And how does that work? Who's the good guy? Who's the bad guy? Oh wait, we should be on the same team. You know, that takes work to get through. And that is a time when we see a lot of people in our office really struggling, but they don't understand. You get past that. You have the cooperation stage. You've learned how to work all that through and make it work. And now the good stuff is coming to hang on. You know, so you're using the things that you learned through your marriage to help these couples who are struggling to make it through. You said you're a pastor's wife. How does that play into what you're doing and, you know, do you ever get your husband involved? Or is it through the church only? Or do you work outside the church also? I work outside the church basically as far as my husband's involved. He passes his counseling to me. So I am a part of John and his right arm. John would rather that I do the counseling. That is not his giftedness. He doesn't have a discerning spirit and God has given that to me. So I am John's right arm. And so yes, I do. I work with John in that sense in counseling people and taking on. And being a pastor's wife is really, not just a pastor's wife, being a Christian is so awesome to be able to then show people the hope of God in your marriage. When people are at that point of feeling hopelessness to be able to say there is hope and to be able to show them this is where you can go to get renewed and this is you can come back to the table filled and work this together. So as a pastor's wife that works great. I can draw upon my teachings that I've, the classes that I've teach women and bring that into counseling too and so. Do you find that people will come up to you at church and just start talking with you and sharing you? Like I find, and I think it's kind of like a doctor. People like to share their aches and pains or whatever and maybe seek advice or a lawyer and I find with myself when people find out what I do, they'll share with me how long they've been married, what's going on in their lives or their children's lives. Do you find that people do that to you at church? Yeah. As a pastor's wife, they'll come up to you and. Absolutely. They'll come up and want to make appointments with me. They'll come up, especially if I've been, it's an intense counseling. They'll come up and want to tell me what, how they've been working it through or how it hasn't been working and kind of just jump on and want me to counsel them. I've had, I have to put my own boundaries up. I won't go into any counseling mode. I will schedule things if we need to but I'll go off to the side. But yeah, and even as a pastor's wife, people will have those expectations that you're the pastor's wife and you're doing this so therefore you need to do this for me now. It's Sunday, it's church and you're the pastor's wife and so I have to put boundaries up for myself so that I can be in the church and participating and receiving and giving as a pastor's wife, not just as a life coach counselor. We find our mentors, they get very attached to the couples they work with and we kind of take them all in. We're like a big family, great marriage, you come in and you have problems, you want to help your family. So we all become very attached and my mentors specifically, they've become very attached to the couples they work with because the programs that we utilize, they can meet with them eight to 12 weeks but we have to work on that boundaries also that when we're meeting in the session, we schedule them, we meet with you, we work then because we don't want them to be calling the mentors at two in the morning saying we just had a fight. How does this work? So there have to be those boundaries. And if you don't have those boundaries then you really aren't doing your couple fair because they need to know how to fight without you coaching them through at two o'clock in the morning. And the couple needs to know that this is okay. This, like you said, is temporary, this doesn't feel good but you can't be hanging on to your mentor or coach at this time. And so a lot of times when they come to me, well what I tell them is when I sit down in church, I will not acknowledge you or talk to you about this because this is confidential and you may not want people to know that you're coming to me but if you approach me, I will greet you and hug you and accept you and that's fine but as far as the counseling part or the issue that you're going through that we need to keep here and between the phones and that I think gives a healthy boundary so that when they do come to church they're doing what they need to be doing at church. Focusing on worship and hearing God. So all of the people that you see for counseling, what percent do you think are married couples? I would probably say about 80% are married couples. Okay, so they have something to do with a marriage relationship? Right, it's a marriage relationship. People come to me because I had a, my relationships aren't working, my marriage isn't working, my friendships aren't working, my sibling relationships aren't working or there's been unfaithfulness in the marriage or there's been, I'm still dealing with past issues as a little girl and I'm 50 something now and it's affecting the way I'm relating to my husband now that we're in the empty nest and it's like, okay, let's unpack this, let's look at this and your husband will be coming in and we'll work this together because it's a marriage and what's in your past that you haven't dealt with will affect your husband. It comes right here today, this moment and the way you react may not be because of what he's saying or doing, it may be because of something that you haven't dealt with back there but your husband needs to be a part of it or you need to be a part of your husband's so that we can unpack it together. Wait, you said that you'd bring the spouse and we at Great Marriages only see couples together, we do not see them individually because we believe that to do marriage counseling, they have to be in together. Absolutely. So you have the same rules? I do, usually I've had men come in to see me alone and I just hear what their expectations are, the next meeting is your wife, let's get together with your wife, we can't go anywhere until we have your, in the same thing with the wife, if she comes in first, I'll say, you know what, the next time we meet, we need to, I just did this yesterday, a lady came in and I'm like, you know what, we need to set our next meeting up with your husband and we will do exactly what you and I've talked about, we will go all over it again, it will be a repeat for you but it will be new for your husband because we need to bring him on the same page that you are. A lot of times I find a spouse will come in on their own and that's fine, that's the first entry point for me and then from that point on, the couple has to come in because I can't get anywhere, like I told the lady yesterday, I can't get anywhere with you, I can't help you to heal unless your spouse is here to help you and we work together. That's exactly what we find, somebody may just walk in the door or call but you have to bring the other person in because we find when your spouse is sitting there with you, you're more accountable for what you're saying and we have both sides of the story at the same time and then we're able to see what's really going on here and then we teach them skills, you're going to be trained and prepared and rich very soon and be utilizing one of the programs that we use and that curriculum is excellent but it's teaching them skills and they both have to be present to learn those skills and they have to go home and practice them. Well, even in being both present, I can actually coach them in their communication, one will come out in a very tacky mode and I'll say, whoa, I know what you're saying, can you say it from your heart and just coach them through talking to one another and it's real awkward, it's almost like a baby trying to walk and they're kind of like tripping and I'm like, but you're doing it, come on. And so to be able to do that so they can hear each other, if they can look at each other, they don't need to look at me, knee to knee, eye to eye, let's talk this through and let me coach you through on how to pull each other into your heart and say it in a way that's not gonna hurt your spouse or and yet you're getting across your pain and how you feel hurt. We work on that so much, the communications go like exactly I understand what you're saying, you know they come in and they're talking at each other or above each other but they're not talking to each other. Sometimes they don't even look at each other. So like you said, getting them to look eye to eye, say, I'm talking, you're listening to me and this is what I say and like you said, the attacking mode, sometimes will you never, you always, you know that doesn't work because a person stops listening the minute that happens. So getting them to really learn how to talk and those programs that we go through, I don't know how long do you usually stay with a couple, you know, some couples average about eight weeks. It can be six weeks to 12 weeks. We've had some as long as 18 but we usually don't go much longer than that because if we haven't been able to teach them the skills and they're not mastering it, you could be in there for three years and it's not going to help. You know, we have to teach you these skills, you have to be able to utilize them and like you said before, go home and use them on your own because then we're successful. Yes, I give homework to use those skills and go home and do this homework that will enable you to do it. I will see them once a week and then I will wean them off to once a month and try to, what I say, I'm gonna let you fly on your own. If you crash, call me and come in and see me before but I really believe you can do this now and you can do it. Are you gonna have hard times? Yes, but that's good. Embrace it and work through it and use the new tools now. Wow, you can dig in and you've got a sharp shovel to do this with. So yes. I think that is one of the questions I had for you, follow up, you know, we do follow up six months a year afterwards because if a couple's been, is married 20 some years and they've been struggling for a little while, for years, they didn't get there overnight and there's no magic fix my marriage pill and then you're better. So it takes time to work on it. So you do, they will fall back into those old patterns. Yep, it's like a well baby checkup. I said, come and see me in your nine month well baby checkup and we'll check now how this new birthing of your marriage, how are you communicating, how is this affecting your relationship, your children, your parents, your employees and employer? How is this working all over because it starts with your marriage and it will go out and so I will absolutely do follow up and check up and a lot of times the follow up is a phone call and it can be on a conference one to see how are you both doing and to just encourage them and cheer them on to say you're doing this, this is awesome. Are you falling? Yes, but now you know how to brush your knee off and realize it's okay, we can do this. What effect do you see on the children of these marriages? The marriages that are going through, it's really interesting to show the couples that a lot of times children will sacrifice themselves for their parents' marriage and be the dilemma, the drama so that they can stabilize mom and dad. But once mom and dad work on their issues and really start communicating the children level out, there's no dilemma, acting out at school has suddenly become less and less till it's almost gone. And so I see once we work on our stuff as married couples, it affects the children, it gives them security, it gives them boundaries. It's good to see mom and dad argue and make up. That is healthy. What little kids don't feud and fight with each other and then we make them make up. Well, mom and dad do the same thing and that's good. That doesn't mean we don't love each other. It means we really love each other and we're gonna fight for this. And so I see in the children a much stabler environment for them where with mom and dad aren't working or they come in because a child has the issue. It's really the parents that have the issue but the parents don't realize that this child is acting out their mom and dad's pain, acting out the insecure feelings, carrying one of those parents's pain and how does that look so they act up. We see that too. A common thought that you'll hear sometimes is, well, it'd be better for the children if we got divorced than them seeing us argue and fight all the time. And I just think, wow, it's not good for the children or for the parents to be divorced because you're connected to each other for the rest of your life. For the rest of your life, yes. Whether or not you're married, you are connected for the rest of your life. And what we say is when those children, like you just said, see you argue, see you fight, see you make up, see your marriage become stronger, they understand that people who love each other can disagree but we still love each other. And there's some, a real inherent sense of security and knowing that I can be, somebody can be angry with me, not like what I do, but they still love me. And we're committed to being together. We're committed to this marriage. We can agree to disagree and mom and dad can agree to disagree and they love each other. Wow, how wholesome, how awesome to give that to our children and then to teach them. It's okay to disagree with someone and accept them and show them. I mean, we're entitled to our own feelings and we can disagree with each other and still love each other. And that's interesting. You said that too. We talk about that too, entitled to your feelings because somebody will say, oh, I feel anger. I feel, well, you shouldn't be upset about that. You shouldn't be sad. Well, you can't say somebody shouldn't. It's a feeling. So they're having it. So you need to validate that feeling and understand why the feeling is there. We just, I just was talking to someone and I feel attacked by her feelings. I'm like, you can't own her feelings. You can't feel for her feelings. Those are her feelings and just listen and acknowledge the pain that's behind the feeling because it's usually when you're feeling attacked it's her pain, but acknowledge it because she needs to own her own feelings and you can't own them or feel them or even carry them for our spouses. And so that's another way of teaching that communication. It's okay. You don't have to be afraid of her feelings. What advice would you give to couples who are struggling and may not wanna do counseling and may not wanna seek help? I would tell them that your marriage is worth fighting for that what you had in the beginning or maybe you didn't even have it. There is a way of heart connecting. There's marriages out there that they're really not married and come and let's connect your hearts. Let's get you so that you're safe with one another and you can feel safe to go to each other on a heart level. So I would say your marriage is worth fighting for. You're worth fighting for. Your spouse is worth fighting for. It's a good fight. Fight sometimes is a negative word but it's a good fight. Come and let's see, give it a fight and really determined. Do you really wanna give this up? Because it's, you're gonna take those problems into any other relationship. Come and let's sort the problems out and let's see what we can do with your marriage and help you give you the tools to help you fight for your marriage. We talk about that too. You know, some of the same problems if you were to leave this spouse and marry another one and go through some of the same exact issues in all relationships. There's stages and struggles that we all go through so we need to figure out how to make it work with the one we got. God gave us and we're here with now so how are we going to make that work? And you talked about being vulnerable and that's so important because we can't really let somebody in and show them how much we love them and allow them to love us. If we can't expose our true feelings. Well, I could just have you on for another show. I mean, we didn't get through half of the questions but you know, there's so many things in common to the kind of work that we do so I would just love to thank you for being our guest on today's show and invite you to come back some other time. Thank you so much. It was my privilege to be here with you, Sherling. Thank you very much for joining us today on Healthy Marriage. We hope that you know marriage is worth it. Marriage, it does matter. Go to our website and find out about some upcoming programs we have and we'll see you next time. Thank you.