 Hello and welcome to The Shakedown. Our mission is to inform people about how the criminal justice system works, the real people impacted by the justice system, and methods to improve justice through compassionate and casual conversation. Posts of The Shakedown share over 50 years of combined personal experience dealing with Texas prisons and working to change the criminal justice system. And now, here's our show. That was going to be another thing I was going to ask. Heather said that one of the things that she wanted people to do is to write their representatives. And that's all, that's very smart. I mean, that's a good idea. But I'm wondering if there's another, that's a top down kind of solution. I wonder if there's a bottom up solution, like something that we all can do, or something that we can get together and do that could, that could be a start to a change. I mean, or help one person. I mean, write, it's all in writing and calling. And it's, you know, the head of, you know, psychology at Texas Department of Corrections, there's the prison warden, there's, you know, your county executive, there's, you know, you can start at the local level as well. It doesn't have to be like your state representatives or like your Congress people. But you definitely have to just start talking to people, getting, get like a support group together on Facebook, get petitions, like, you know, do those like small local level things, talk to the county executive, talk to, you know, those organizations that send volunteers to, to the, to the prisons, to, you know, talk and talk to prisoners and stuff like that. So it, there's, there's ways to do it on a more local, I guess, centralized level. But also like getting ahold of the TDC and being like, Hey, this is a problem. We've been in here. We know for a fact it's a problem. We need to do something about it. You know, and find somebody that's willing to listen and work, work with you guys and see some sort of change. You just got to be loud about it and really, I'm noxious. You're right. That's awesome. You do. I mean, if you're going to be like these, these podcasts are great, but you also have to just be really loud because they can't ignore you after a certain amount of, you know, being like, Hey, it's a problem. It's a problem. It's a problem. At some point they have to be like, Okay, what's a problem? Okay, fine. Let's talk about this now. Right. Yeah, exactly. Either, either they're going to be open to it or you're going to annoy them into being open to it. Either way, they're going to be open to it. And I would say, honestly, I feel the same way about like, when we're talking about changes for this and for also for like criminal justice, changes in the criminal justice system, it, it starts just on a personal level. Like, if you treat everyone, if everyone's a person, they, if you start that as your default assumption, then it doesn't matter if they have a mental health problem. It doesn't matter if they have a record. It doesn't matter what their situation is. They're a person first. Then we're, that's, that's your default setting. So if you have someone who's running for city council and they're saying, we need to, we need to put more, you know, like, we're not going to spend money on mental health, and we're going to spend more money on making sure that people are getting arrested, then, you know, people you need to talk to. Yeah, you need to make sure that that person isn't on the city council because that money, that all your tax money that like the majority of your real tax money that's affecting real change in your neighborhood, that is now going to all the things you don't want. So like we just had a city council election and that was like, I spent a bunch of time studying those candidates because there were like, one of them was totally, I'm going to be Mr. Tough on Crime. I want to, you know, triple the funding for the police in Longmont. And I'm like, I, yeah, I'm voting against you. I don't want any of that. So, we'll see you later. Yeah, it was so obvious to see the, what you're talking, I mean, I don't really have much. The reason I asked that question, because I don't really have much hope that people in political positions of power are ever going to develop the kind of, I don't think they're there to really change anything other than how much money gets in their, you know, pockets. When you go to the neighborhoods where Houston and Houston, where our political leaders live, they are, I mean, they are, the homes are beyond anything you can imagine. If you go anywhere else in Houston, there are homeless people everywhere. There are homeless people that are obviously mentally ill, wandering around in the rain, wearing their socks and a sheet over them. And no one cares or does anything about it. But if you go to the neighborhoods where, where the, our political leaders stay, there's no, there's no homeless people there. They, they've managed somehow not to ever get in there. So, I mean, it's obvious to me that just that these people, it's not, it's not an issue that they'll ever have to really deal with or even care about to deal with. Right. Or they have the money to quietly send somebody away to an inpatient facility and pretend they were on vacation for a month, you know, it's like that. Right. If it's someone they love, or a family member that ends up having a problem, then it's completely different circumstance. They don't go to prison. It's different then. It's about each and everybody, each and every one of us develop some kind of warmth of, of, of, you know, souls, so to speak, and empathy for, for one another to be able to have genuine, genuinely care for what the next person's well being to be able to inquire and have them feel like they're safe to talk to you about it. Exactly. I mean, there's a lot to overcome in all this. Yeah. I mean, it's an uphill battle that probably won't, won't see a tangible solution for a long time. And that's, it's heartbreaking because obviously I would like to see some change, but it's got to start somewhere. And the work that I'm doing now and the people that I'm contacting now work towards change so that, you know, when my nephew's older or something like that, it's, it's a lot different than I did my job. But I think we need to, yeah, we need to work at the local level. Like, yeah, like what Ryan was saying, city council, city council a thousand percent. You know, your mayor, your county executive, those, those guys, the town clerk, see where the town, see, see where the town clerk stands for, because I'm pretty sure it's up in New York. They're elected officials. I don't know what it is like in Texas, but your town clerk selected, you know, your sheriff selected, what's their stance on mental health? You got to, you got to start talking to people. It's true. And it's just anybody really have a chance to talk to you at the beginning of the personal level, because, you know, you talk to, you talk to one person, they talk to another person, and those people talk to more people, and it's like a snowball, you know, just keeps building momentum and more and more people, you know, and the more people that know, and the more people that talk about it, the more loud and obnoxious it's going to be. Exactly. You can't, you can ignore one or two people. You can't ignore a whole crowd. I love that. You're like, be loud and obnoxious. That's awesome. I am naturally loud and obnoxious. So I'm just over here, like, you know, I still have some family that's like, you have a mental health podcast. I'm like, yeah, I'm that shit crazy. And I own that shit. Like, what it like, it just, it is what it is. But so I think that's a very big sense of power right there is when you own it, you know, like you were like, okay, this is the party who I am. I accept it. And here it is, everybody. You know, I mean, for me, that was a big part of my, my changing and like becoming, for lack of better words, a productive member of society. Yeah, let's not go crazy here. Nope, he's going crazy. I am crazy though. We're all crazy here. One might be right about the fact that like the people who are in half power right now, they may not change. Those people, they might be set in stone. A lot of them, I definitely agree. They are probably set in stone. They're set in their ways. However, they're not there permanently. When they wake up in the morning, you know, changing their mind from whatever it's on, which is probably, you know, something that's going to end better their life, to focusing on mental health, which isn't going to do anything for them. Perming on a, on sort of a, I mean, it's not going to do anything immediate for them. You know, I mean, over time, it might make the world better in general. But I don't think that's their focus is what I'm saying. Getting them to, to, to have that kind of focus is very difficult. That's, well, yeah, that's kind of getting on a different subject. We've really covered that already. But the thing is, is that the guy, the person who's running for city council, whoever that may be, the person who's running for city council or running for mayor or running in that local election, they might be the next governor. And then that governor might, then when, after they run for governor, they might be the next president. And then that changes the whole story in a generation. Like that changes in years. But the person, the, and they, and because everyone was loud on the local level, that affected the national level later on. But you, I can give you an example of what I'm talking about though. My own mother went to, went back to college later in life, right after I went to prison, and to become a drug and alcohol counselor to rid the world of this horror of drug addiction. And she's very passionate about it. And while she was in college, she became part of a group that started putting on seminars at the state Capitol for our lawmakers about educating them on the science of drug addiction, telling them exactly the same type of stuff that we're talking about right now. She, she used to go in there and she was loud and obnoxious, just like Heather. And she would proclaim that we were living in the dark ages of addiction treatment, we're treating it as a crime instead of as a health issue, putting people in prison for, for drug addiction, which is the same thing as putting people in prison for, for mental, it is a mental issue. And she, and I mean the, the science was at that time was, it's still the science of right now. There's alcohol does not affect everybody the same. There's some people who have a chemical makeup, literally chemical forms in their brain that is just like the chemical that is, that is so akin to heroin, it's almost exactly the same. Doctors were studying a group that were studying dead homeless people that were alcoholics. And they were studying their brains and they found they thought that they were discovering that these people were all heroin addicts because their brains are saturated with this chemical that's associated with heroin use. It's just like she was, just like she was saying about the opioids. It's to them drinking a beer is the same as using a OxyContin. It's a physical problem. It's literally a problem that is mechanical within their body that needs to be dealt with. And instead they send them to prison. Right. Yeah, because to add to that, I, I like have had other painkillers with like my back surgeries and stuff like that. I didn't have a problem. It's a lot of it. I didn't have a problem with morphine. It was only oxy. I can't. It is a problem. Just a little bit. But my mom was putting on these seminars. George Bush was there. He was the governor of Texas at the time. He went from there right to the White House. Did he go to the White House with some kind of message about alcoholism and how we're going to start treating it? No, he didn't care. It didn't. It never, ever was mentioned publicly at all by him. Well, the thing is, is okay. I totally understand that because you are going to get people that aren't going to care, but eventually you're going to get somebody that does or eventually you're going to get somebody that did not realize that it's as big of a problem as it was because it's been swept under the rug for so long. So eventually you are going to find somebody that's like, oh, shit, this is a problem. We actually need to do something about it. So yeah, it being loud and obnoxious half the time, even like, let's just say 80% of the time doesn't necessarily work. But you have to do it for that 20%. The 20% of people that are like, you know what, you're right. Because otherwise we might as well just quit what we're had and just keep that. I don't, I'm not, don't get me wrong. I don't mean to sound as if I'm being pessimistic. No, no, no, no, I'm just saying. You know, we're doomed to failure and it's never going to work. That's not what I'm saying at all. But what I am saying is that I think that it's more of something that I need to focus on how I can better the world around me and not necessarily, I don't, I don't want to put it off on a politician or on somebody else that I think has more power than you. Right. Well, I mean, I think what I think it was David that said it, if we just start treating everybody as humans, everybody around you, it's no balls. Yeah. And it's just tell people if they ask them, hey, do you know about anything about mental health? Whatever. Say, hey, you know, in prison, just get real personal. I mean, the hell with it. I mean, and that's part of being, it's being quiet and obnoxious, I guess. Well, and like, if you, if you feel like somebody that you know is struggling, ask them, are you, are you struggling? And if they're like, you know, I'm kind of, and if you feel like it's out of your wheelhouse to be that 988 is that the crisis hotline they can call, they can text, and those are trained professionals to help counsel somebody. I say it in my TikTok lives and everything else all the time when somebody is, you know, venting or whatever, just talking in my chat, there's like certain levels where I'm just like, I'm not equipped to handle that. These people are, I really want you to call 988 and I'll follow up and be like, Hey, did you talk to them? Like, are you feeling better? Like, but just being there and pointing out when you feel like somebody's struggling, just being like, Hey, are you doing okay? You know, and if you, if you're not comfortable doing that, you know, talk to somebody that knows them that would feel comfortable doing that. Because you don't, everybody has their limits on what they can and can't do. And there's absolutely nothing wrong with that. And a lot of people too, I think if they, you know, somebody just says, and they're going through it, you know, and if somebody just says, Hey, are you doing okay? Do you need to talk to somebody? I mean, I know that when I'm going through it, if somebody just just popped up out of the blue and it's like, Hey, you know, you seem kind of off today, you know, are you all right? That that in and of itself, that simple act of care goes a long way. Yeah. Cause even if I'm like, no, I'm good. I'm just like, somebody gave a shit. And sometimes that's all that counts. Sometimes that is all that matters. And that goes a long way. It really does. So yeah, I kind of went to the top of the pyramid and worked backwards, but yeah, I mean, there's so many ways that we can just start making a difference. And even at a personal level, just are you doing okay? Or just being, trying to, trying to treat everybody like a human being and realizing that everybody's going through their own struggles and everybody's dealing with their own shit. And I'm not the best at it some days, but I, it's a work in progress, you know, and even being kind to myself is a work in progress. Sometimes that is the very, the very core of the personal level, like being kind to yourself goes a long way. Without a doubt. I, yeah, I'm like that. That's something I work on constantly with myself is to try and be a little bit more positive and not be so negative. Oh yeah, it's a lot of self forgiveness, especially how I want to do though, you know, sometimes. I'm still working on it, okay? I'm still working on it. Yeah, right there with you. Well, Heather, we've been talking for a minute. I know it's, it's getting late there. Do you have any, any final thoughts before, before we sign off? No, I, no, I think we've covered like a lot, a lot more than I anticipated. I wasn't sure coming into this, like what we were going to do, but I'm very, very happy with the direction the conversation took because I think it's just something we need to talk about more. Absolutely. I think we're all in agreement on that. I will definitely have links and everything to your show on our description and let everyone know about the hot mess espresso. And yeah, thanks everybody for listening. Thanks everyone for being here. And that's it for tonight. Thank you. Oh, thank you. Oh, thanks for coming on. It's been, because I was like you, I was like, what are we going to talk about here? I know. We all know it's there, but it's, you know, it's just, I think everything went really well and thank you. This is what I love though. You can find shakedown merch, graphic novels, and other projects at waywardpress.com. That's W-A-Y-W-O-R-D-Press.com. If you would like to support the shakedown, get exclusive content and watch episodes live. 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