 This is Think Tech Hawaii, Community Matters here. Welcome to another episode of Likeable Science here on Think Tech Hawaii. I'm your host Ethan Allen. With me today in the Think Tech studios is Pam Chambers. Hi. Welcome Pam. Nice to have you back here. Thank you. Thanks for having me. Pam is a author, presenter, coach, speaker. All these wonderful things has done a number of books, speak for yourself, stand and deliver life as a presentation and her most recent. Not this again. And this is Lessons on Leadership for Hawaii and we're going to be talking about leadership in Hawaii. But first, I want to tell you a little story, Pam, and you'll think this has nothing to do with what we're going to talk about, but it really does. So you know what ants live in colonies, right? And lots and lots of ants together in pretty tight space. So when an ant dies, of course, they can't just leave it there to rot, right? Other worker ants pick the dead body up, take it outside and throw it on the trash, basically, right? So scientists, in the curious words they are, got to wondering how do they know this ant is dead and not just sleeping, you know, or whatever. So they very carefully swabbed the backs of dead ants, you know, probably it's a chemical thing because ants are very chemically sensitive, swabbed a bunch of this off some dead ants and they swabbed that same material onto some live ants and they set this live ant back down and she ran back into the colony and immediately the worker ants picked her up, although she's kicking and struggling and all, carried her up and dumped her in the trash pile and she righted herself and ran back into the colony and worker ants picked her up, carried her back up and dumped her in the trash pile again. And it was very clear they were getting the message that she was dead, basically, from this chemical, this pheromone, and all she knew perfectly well she wasn't. But anyhow. So what does that have to do with what we're going to talk about here, presentation and leadership, right? I can't wait to find out. Well, a theme in this wonderful book, not this again, is that there's a real feedback loop that goes on between leaders and the people that are working for them, the followers we'll call them. Just as there is feedback loop and you were talking about this at a speaker's association meeting a while ago, the feedback between a presenter and the audience. And it's not just a one-way flow of information, both parties have to be both presenting and receiving for whether or not they know it, right? And if this communication breaks down in any way, things don't go well, right? And so in this case, the chemical signal was completely overriding the physical signal, although the ant was waving its feet and all. Yes, the ant was totally misunderstood. The worker ant basically ignored that signal and just said, nope, you've got the death stink on you, basically. We're hacking you out, you know. Nice, just a complete breakdown of communication there. That's a great analogy. Well, yeah, just, I was thinking about it. I like these little campfire stories sometimes. Anyhow, tell us maybe how you came to write this book or why you chose to write it. I was in a workshop and I was announcing to the people in the workshop what their survey results were. And they just looked at me blankly. And I said, do you not know about these surveys and the results? And they just looked at me blankly. And I said, we don't get enough feedback. And then I kept thinking about that. And I thought it's true almost everywhere I go that people are not being given enough feedback or information that would help them be better caregivers in this case. So then I kind of thought about all the different places I've been and taught and trained. And I thought, I bet there are other problems that are equally prevalent. So I made a list and it was 20. I shrunk it down to 18 challenges that business leaders in Hawaii face, in particular. Right, there is a very Hawaii focus there. Right, and then I asked certain leaders, I asked many leaders, will you supply me with a story? And you'd be surprised how many people, maybe you wouldn't. Not surprisingly, a lot of people didn't want to do that because they didn't want to be public about what their problems are. So the book is full of Valerie and Robert. But then you'll see in the shaded sections of the book are true stories with real names and real company names. Yeah, yeah. And I mean, it brings up the sort of the truism that was popularized in that old movie Cool Ham Luke some while ago about what we have here as a failure to communicate. This is often you read these lessons as you're talking about them and the boss is saying something and the employee isn't hearing it or the employee is saying something and the boss isn't hearing it or they're misunderstanding one another. And so it is a very prevalent commonplace thing. I've certainly experienced it in it and organizations small and large that I've worked in. Yeah, and families and neighborhoods and board meetings, it happens everywhere. And it's not only in Hawaii of course, but this is about some of the reasons why we have problems and challenges of our own here. Right, and there's a very interesting cultural issues that you touch on here about that that we have a really peculiar or peculiar juxtaposition here where we've got a bunch of different cultures all meeting together with their own styles of communication. We sometimes I do a lot of work out in Micronesia and we talk about the Micronesian yes, which is basically because they tend to be very polite people and they don't want to offend you. So if you ask them, can we do something or whatever? And they'll always say yes, even when they've got absolutely no intention doing it. Oh, wow. And you have to learn to dig a little deeper, ask it in different ways or ask their friend, will they do this or whatever to find out if it's really a yes that I can believe or is it just a yes that they were saying not. If you were to pay attention to their body language, would that be helpful? There might be good clues. We should get to R.B. Kelly on this on time. Ask her about it. So there are a lot of parallels, though, between doing a public presentation and being a leader. I mean, both people are sort of in charge as it were. Both are, though, very dependent on their followers or their audience to be supportive of them in some sense. And there are dangers if either of them doesn't communicate properly. Right, right. So talk a little bit about some of this. Some of this sort of what the psychology that you were saying. OK, well, one of your questions to me in advance, thank you for those. I had to do with what types of presentations are leaders really needing to be good at. So I made a few notes to answer that. So I'm thinking of a new employee orientation. So you have 20 new employees in a large firm. Well, they need to know the rules. They need to know what's expected of them. And so they go to these new employee orientations. And if the speaker, the leader, whoever's leading that, seems either bored or apathetic or unclear or unmotivating, then just imagine how you might feel sitting in that room. Gee, if I made a big mistake. So there's that giving any types of new directions, new instructions, new procedures, we have to say what it is and why. And a lot of times the why is left out. And so people aren't, they're just not, they don't have the oomph that it takes to follow through because they don't understand the why behind the what. Right, they don't hear it, they don't own it, they don't believe in it, basically. Yes, exactly. And then staff meetings, some people have a weekly staff meeting and people are so, they complain bitterly about these endless meetings that don't go anywhere, that go in circles. And I would call that poor leadership. Right, but it's essentially poor public presentation, right? Yes, they're not public speaking well enough. And then times when you want to motivate and rally your team, your staff, maybe you have a cause that you want them to get on board. Aloha United Way rallies are a good example of that. So yes, and a lot of leaders, they don't study enough how to be better at that and they may not get feedback about how they're not as good as they could be. Who's gonna tell them? Right, yeah, and will they hear it? Even if they are told it, will they dismiss that in some way or will they just not hear it? So knock on wood that that's a problem because that's often when I get brought in is, could you tell him that? Do people really do that? They bring you in to deliver? One example that is so profoundly unbelievable to me is a man asked me to come in and work one-on-one with one of his vice presidents. So both leaders are fairly high up there. And I said, what do you want me to help him with? And he said, you'll see. So when I went in there, the man was sitting, it's hard to do this with my jacket so tight, but he was sitting with his hands laced behind his head leaning back in his chair, this client of mine. And he sat that way for several minutes. And I finally when I felt like the rapport was good enough, I said, can I give you some feedback about your body language? Now wouldn't you, if someone said that to you, wouldn't you make some change? But he didn't even change, he kept sitting that same way. And I said, I'm concerned that you will be misunderstood when you sit that way, that people might think that you're aloof or not engaged or that you think this is beneath you somehow. And he sat up straight and he leaned in and he said, no one's ever told me that before. And I said, I know, or even your boss, why would that be so hard to say to somebody? Yeah, yeah, but it's true, I mean, people do read these non-verbal cues, that's a clear part of that communication. Right, he could be fully engaged, but he doesn't look like it. So that's what I'm gonna believe, not whatever might be happening in his head. Right, and again, he may, in his own brain, be 100% there focused on what you're saying and everything. He may have just learned this relaxed posture or whatever, that's his sort of quirky thing, right? But imagine a leader, a so-called leader, who doesn't know how to say, I don't want you to sit that way in front of clients. Right, right. Here's how I want you to sit. Right, yeah, it's like people telling their front office staff about, not telling them about dress codes and all, right, you know, and then being upset with them when they come in dressed inappropriately. Right, right. Or not telling them why you need to have someone at the desk the minute the office is open, not someone skidding in at the last minute. You know, why? So that you look ready, prepared, hospitable. Right, yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah. And yes, so. You asked how people can learn these things. How would a leader learn how to be a better communicator? And there are many ways. They could videotape themselves. They could, just like what we're doing right here, they could videotape themselves being on your show and then they could look at it and see what they think should be changed. It is intriguing, actually. Years ago, when I was practicing for a talk, I'd just gotten some access to some video equipment and I thought, oh, this would be great. I'll videotape myself. It was amazing the first time you see yourself trying to talk and videotape. Oh, yes. And you have no clue about all the ticks and nervous mannerisms, the postures. You know, I was not at all aware of what I was doing with my hands. Just, you know. Right, right, right. And so, the video is one, observing people that they consider to be good communicators and saying, what is it that I think is so great about this person as a communicator and trying to model some of that behavior? Or you can take classes. There's Dale Carnegie. There's the Pam Chambers course. There's Toastmasters that anyone can join. And there, you would get feedback. Maybe not as much as you should, but you would get some feedback. And then, getting feedback from surveys. You can survey your customers and say, in terms of our communication with you, how did we do? And ask specific questions about that. Yeah, and these days, that's easier and easier to do, right? There are all kinds of these online apps now that allow you to do interactive question and answer groups in real time, anonymously. I was just doing one the other day at a rotary meeting where the speaker had one of these going and we all broke out our phones and he was asking us questions and we were watching how many people give quite an answer. Oh, right, there's a name for that. I forget the name, that's, yeah. There's several different versions of it around that. Right, right, right. But yeah, it's, and yet, people don't do it. You know, people won't, they won't give that feedback. Look at, is it TripAdvisor, they want you to say your name. You have to leave your name if you're gonna give a review, but Yelp, you don't leave your name. So, the anonymousness makes it possibly easier to be critical, but who, like the guy with his hands back there, who, what inferior person to him is gonna tell him anything about that? Right, yeah. We're afraid to do that. Yeah, and it's odd because a fair number of people do understand with that example that body language means something and you're supposed to sort of mimic the body language of somebody when you're talking with them in order to establish commonalities. Interesting sort of vision, his meetings. Well, maybe now he's completely dropped that habit, I hope so. Well, you asked about losing consequences, or the consequences if you lose your ability to speak well and so, or don't ever gain it in the first place, you could lose some credibility if you're not a good speaker. You could lose face if you're not a good speaker. You could lose employees if you're not a good speaker. There's a lot at stake, and I just think we're not paying enough attention to that. I tend to agree. I think we often don't think about that enough. We're gonna go more deeply into this, but right now I'm told we have to take a quick break. I'm Ethan Allen, you're watching Likeable Science. I'm here with Pam Chambers, and we'll be back in a minute. Aloha, I'm Winston Welch, and every other Monday at 3 p.m., you can join me at Out and About, a show where we explore a variety of topics, organizations, events, and the people who fuel them in our city, state, country, and world. So please join us every other Monday at 3, and we'll see you then. Aloha. Hi, I'm Pete McGinnis-Mark, and every Monday at one o'clock, I present Think Tech Hawaii's Research in Manoa, where we bring together researchers from across the campus to describe a whole series of scientifically interesting topics of interest both to Hawaii and around the world. So hopefully you can join me one o'clock Monday afternoon for Think Tech Hawaii's Research in Manoa. And you're back here on Likeable Science on Think Tech Hawaii. I'm your host, Ethan Allen. With me today here in Think Tech Studios is Pam Chambers, speaker, author, extraordinaire, public speaker, presenter, coach, all these different roles. We're talking about her book, Not This Again, where there are just 18 lessons, challenges that Hawaii's leaders face, and sort of lessons on how to overcome these challenges. And we were speaking earlier a little bit about the unique nature of Hawaii. And you talk about one of the aspects in here about the sort of island time idea, right? And people have very different ideas. Type A people who show up always at least a few months early for a meeting, would never think of being late versus people who take a much different attitude. And it's not to say one's right, one's wrong, but there are expectations in certainly in the business world. I would call it the first time I was down in American Samoa being shocked because we had set up to do workshops with teachers that were gonna be in at four o'clock, I think. And so I'm there, of course, plenty early. Four o'clock comes and there's nobody there. Four, 15, one or two people start drifting in. Four, 30, a few more drift in. Quarter, five, getting to get a little bit of a crowd. By five o'clock, there were a fair number of people there. Not a one of them apologized or thought, no, this was just, this was just accepted. This was very normal, meeting started when they started and people showed up when they showed up. And that was, if I was gonna get upset about it, that wasn't gonna do me any good. That wasn't gonna change their behavior or so. Did any circumstance cause them to be on time? I really haven't found, it's just a very different, the whole mindset when you've grown up, particularly on these really small islands that have been basically self-sufficient for generations, there's this whole attitude that things will happen when they need to happen and there's no sort of need for that level of structure and organization and time slots and all because you don't need it. So, why, it's just not in the mindset. One of the contributors to this book had a really interesting point of view about what we call Hawaiian time. He said that he had a client who was a member of a team and his job was to do a certain task to contribute to this project. And he kept not turning it in, he kept not turning it in. And my friend asked him, what is the holdup? And he said, it's not good enough yet. It's not good enough yet for our team. So, he was thinking about the whole group and how it would be for the team as opposed to his own. Whereas I might be more, this is my job and here it is. Yes, and again, I think that highlights a real difference in sort of mainstream US culture. We are very individualistic. The small islands are forced to be much more community thinker, so they have to consider what is good for the group because when you live on a little island with 200 people who are there from the time you're born until the time you die and nobody else, it's very important that you all get along well, that you work well together. And we see this, I mean, we've seen things where young, very talented kids are offered scholarships to go to great schools and all and turn them down because no, they're expected to stay on island and take care of their young cousins or their nieces. That's the expectation and they will forego their own betterment and their own advancement to deal with what the community expects. For the sake of the group. Yeah, yeah. Right, one of the challenges here, I think has to do with the diversity. So, if we were in, oh, a big San Francisco or Boston, there would be more of us alike than different. But here, there are so many different cultures that as a speaker, you could look out at 100 people and there would be some people who need to be in the back row and other people who need to be in the front row and other people who will never talk no matter what you do, other people that will take over and people with varying degrees of understanding of the English language even. So, a speaker, a leader has to be able to play to all of that. Right, and understand that the subtle different signals. All right, if you've got a staff where you have people who are very shy, very polite, by their cultural upbringing and other people who are brash go get them individualists, yeah, you're gonna have to adjust your presentation style as it were to these different people to really get the best out of both of them, right? I remember a training once that had about, about half the people in the training were police officers and the others weren't. And the ones who weren't were almost all fairly intimidated by these people in uniforms with their 20-pound belts who have power. Sure, guns, guns, yes. And it was amazing what happened when the officers were done with their portion of the training and excused themselves how the energy in the room changed. Really? Yes, I mean, the people really came to life whereas they had been suppressing, almost trying to be invisible, almost. Yeah, well, I mean, people do that. I mean, there's been wonderful studies done when they have someone, for instance, cross an intersection against a light and if you put the same person in the cloth, the shabby clothes looking like a bum, nobody follows them. You put them in sort of normal attire, a few people follow them. You put a uniform on them and crowds will follow them across against the light. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Because we all, again, it's part of that whole communication thing that we're talking about, that feedback loop. It's like, oh, well, this person has... And it's unspoken. Right, yeah. It's not spoken. And often unacknowledged even in our own minds, right? Right, right, right. Now, why am I following this guy? Right, you wouldn't know. Even when we see something approaching someone and we decide, I think I'm gonna cross the street now, that's where reading, we're assessing the situation and deciding that it would be safer if we were on that side of the street. Yeah, yeah. When we have to be assessing like that. Yeah, again, this ties back to our sort of biological roots, right? We had to be very good at reading body language and intention because if you didn't, you probably didn't pass on your genes, right? Yeah. Right, and you were wondering earlier about how a leader can adapt to the Hawaiian culture or the culture in Hawaii, I should say. Right. I think they need to have a mentor. I mean, I've seen in the 36 years that I've been here, I've seen people come and go, people from the mainland in particular who come and they just don't fit in, they never learn to fit in and they may leave in some kind of shame or rejection even because they didn't have anyone say, here's how it works here. Here's what is expected. Here's what this means. Here's what that doesn't mean. And wouldn't it be great if they had a mentor? Oh yeah, wouldn't it, yeah. To explain, take your shoes off, to explain, don't arrive empty handed even if people said no gifts, that doesn't mean no gifts. I think we need to have more of that than we do. Yeah, that sort of structured mentoring is really great. My sister did her career in the Navy and one of the things she spoke of that I always thought was such a great idea, when she first entered as an ensign, she'd gone through officer's candidate school, they assigned her basically a career coach officer basically whose job it was basically to say, okay Lois, they're gonna move you every two years. Now let's see, you've done this specialty, you've done this specialty, where do you wanna go? Why do we need to position you geographically, sort of professionally and sort of help guide her along? She left the Navy as a captain, so. Oh my goodness, that must have been very helpful. Yeah, I've always, why don't they do this in the real world? Right, right, right, right. I mean, we're supposed to vaguely do that in academia, right, you have advisors at various stages but they usually only wanna track you in their pathways, right? Right. This is what I think you need. Right, right. Of course that is a, again it's a sort of a danger and leadership, right, is that leaders sometimes have relatively narrow views of what they want their followers to do, right, and just drive them or pull them in that one direction. That's a fairly arrogant attitude and short-sighted and not very wise. Ways to keep engagement going between leaders and followers would be to get up and move around once in a while, get out, manage by walking around, I heard it called once. Where you literally, you walk around, you look, you feel the energy, you see the look on the face, you sense and care and investigate and you become a detective. What is going on in my company? Yeah, it's funny, I work with a relatively smaller group now, our new CEO, when he came on board base and said, no, I'm not gonna use the CEO of the office, I'm gonna sit out in the main room with everyone else. Oh, wow. And just, it makes a tremendous difference in terms of the ambiance of the place. It's like, oh, we're just all sort of sitting around here and getting stuff done. Do people like it? Oh yeah, everyone agrees it's a much healthier energy there. But yeah, it is particularly, I think, in a very multicultural area like Hawaii, that's probably even more critical, right? If you've got a bunch of, if you're supervising a bunch of people who are very much like yourself, it's probably relatively easy to check in once or twice and know what's going on, but the different people with different styles, differing amounts of what they're gonna put out, what they're gonna hide inside, you probably need much more time to spend with them to sort of watch for the subtle signals that they are happy or are happy. Right, and leaders need to know, one of the chapters is about, should I talk to this one guy alone or should I talk to the whole group about this thing? And often people feel safer in the group, in the herd, than they do separate from the herd. And so to single someone out and pull them into your office to get their input about something, you're probably not going to get the truth. Yeah, that's a very delicate business. So there are issues that you can't discuss in the group, right, and you need to talk to them. Well, there was one story in there about a leader who found out that one of her employees ate the same stinky food every day. And the meetings after lunch were filled with unpleasant fumes. And she wanted me to deal with that. And I said, oh, come on, let me teach you how to deal with that. And she wouldn't have any of it. So it turns out that it was the right thing to do to talk to the group about that so that they wouldn't eat that same lunch, too. Right, yeah, it wouldn't become a cultural thing. Right, oh, let's all go to it, but I won't name it a place, but there was kimchi and daikon involved. And so it would have been a mistake to pull him aside. Absolutely. Well, Pam, as always, it's great fun talking with you. I'm told we're running out of time. Okay. It seemed like it was just a moment ago we started chatting here. But again, Pam Chambers, not this again, you know? It's a great book, very good for anyone, leaders or followers to read. Thank you. Thank you, Pam, for coming on here again. And we'll see you in on. Okay, all right. Thank you so much. Yes, indeed. Thanks. And we'll see you next week. I'm Ethan Allen, signing off on Likeable Science on ThinkDec Hawaii.