 Felly, dwi'n rhaid i ddweud i'r ysgolwyddon y casellfa clifio 2019. Felly, mae'n fyw iawn i'r ffwyaf i'r cymunedau a'ch gweithio i'r ysgolwyddon ydw i gyntafol ysgolwyddon ysgolwyddon yn ymdwyllgor. Dwy i'n rhaid i'n fwyaf i'r ysgolwyddon yw ddweud i'i ddweud i gael y sgolwyddon ymdwyllgor a'r cyfnodol yw'r cyflwyno yma? The first item on the agenda is the South of Scotland Enterprise Bill. The evidence for this enterprise bill will be heard from two separate witness panels tonight. The first with the local authority and related representatives and the second with community organisations and small businesses. Moving straight on to panel one, I'd like to welcome the first panel, Elaine Murray and Gavin Stevenson, chief executive of Dumfries and Galloway council. Mark Rowley, who's a councillor and executive member for business and economic development, and Brian McArthur, chief officer for economic development of Scottish borders council, and Russell Greggs, a chair and Robert Rob Dixon, the lead officer of the South of Scotland economic partnership. Now, I've had my arm twisted before the meeting to ask if an opening statement could be made on behalf of the panel, and I believe, Elaine Mead, you are going to do a brief opening statement. Don't touch the button, but they'll activate it for you. I can assure you, as a former member of the Parliament, I know how to count words and briefs. On behalf of both councils, how very much we welcome the bill to establish an enterprise agency in the south of Scotland, we and the south of Scotland Alliance, which both councils are part, have long campaigned for this. We believe, however, that the establishment of the new agency can transform the efforts of current partners to drive forward the economy of the south by connecting efforts around a regional agenda and providing structure, focus, alignment and momentum. The agency must be built in and for the south of Scotland, giving us collectively the power to address the social and economic challenges which bedevil our large and distinctive rural region and to maximise the potential of our considerable assets. We aren't here to ask for handouts, we are ambitious to transform the south of Scotland into one of the most vibrant rural economies in Europe, making a significant contribution to both the Scottish and UK economies. There are some matters which you might want to explore further, whether the bill should be more specific on the region's problems and potential, or whether these are better addressed in the action plan, whether there should be consultation with the board before the issuing of ministerial direction and how local accountability is best achieved, but these are issues for the bill, we support the bill in principle. Thank you very much, Elaine. There are a series of questions and just to save any confusion, your microphones will be activated for you. I've been at pains to stress to committee members to keep their questions as short as possible and therefore short answers are appreciated. If you want to come in, the answer is to try and catch my eye, I won't necessarily be able to get you all in on every single question but I'll try and make sure it's fairly distributed. I've warned people at the other meeting that if I waggle my pen, that means you're expending all your time. It gets more vigorous as time goes on and I haven't yet had to launch it at anyone, but could you bear in mind that if it gets very vigorous, your time is up and we want to get everyone through it. So the first question will be from John Mason. John, where are you? Thank you, convener, yes. I think to build maybe on what Elaine Murray was saying in our introduction, she used the phrase, I think, one of the most vibrant economies in Europe is what you'd like to see. So could you give us, as a kind of introduction, a feeling of where you are at the moment and what needs to happen over the next 10 to 20 years? What do you want to see changed over the next 10 to 20 years, the main things? Elaine. Okay, right, I'll kick off on that. I think the south of Scotland has tremendous potential, it has very enterprising communities and has wonderful natural assets, but we haven't so far really managed to capitalise as much as we could on those and that some of the structures for economic support do not actually respond to some of the challenges that we've got. So at the moment we have problems with demographic change, we have problems with low wages, we have problems with connectivity. We need assistance, I think, in overcoming those problems. If we manage to have the correct support for our economy, we believe that the potential we have in this part of the south can make a tremendous contribution to the Scottish economy. This is actually about how we come forward and in us coming forward and succeeding, we help to bring success to the rest of the country. Mark, do you want to come in on that? Thank you, convener. You were asking Mr Mason about change over 20 years. It's going to be very tricky getting significant change going quickly, so I think it's right that we look at the long term, but in 20 years' time I'd like to see, as well as a more prosperous, more vibrant economy in the south of Scotland, I'd like to see some of the demographic trends changed so that we aren't losing all of our young people so that our population is growing rather than shrinking, and so that we're actually encouraging people to come to this part of Scotland to live. Of course, it's not just about the south of Scotland. The south of Scotland needs to be playing its part in the Scottish economy, and I'd like to see us being significantly greater contributors to that in the next 10 and 20 years. Just for a minute, you both talked about democratic challenges. Everywhere that I've heard of faces demographic challenges from Germany and everywhere else. What is different about the south of Scotland? Do you face extra challenges that other places don't? The problem is more severe in the south of Scotland than it is in the rest of the country. Our young people leave to go to university. They tend not to come back again, and we don't replace them with other young people. Ageing population is, again, a common problem? It's not a problem—I don't know whether I'm saying ageing population is a problem—but there are a lot of—because it is a beautiful rural area, there are quite a lot of people who like to come to retire in the south of Scotland. We're not as expensive as the Lake District of Yorkshire-Dale, so we're often quite popular for people coming in. That brings a lot of potential with it, but there are issues as well as people get older if we don't have the economy to sustain them. I'd like to bring Russell in, if I may, and then I'll go to Mark and then Stuart's got a supplementary. Russell, do you want to? I guess in answer to what our vision is, we spoke last year as we went round looking at, excuse me, about what the new agency should do to about 600 local people and what they saw the future for the south of Scotland. I think one of the challenges they have is how they're viewed from elsewhere in Scotland. A scene, perhaps, as you said, has been with lots of challenges that put right, whereas a lot of the people in the south of Scotland think there are already a lot of strengths here that we can build on. It was interesting listening to a lot of the comments that were made at the session before this by those in the audience, that if we start to mesh our social side together with our farming and our forestry, our tourism and our food and drink and everything else that we have, we have a really strong foundation to build an economy on over the next 20 years. I guess the thing we've been missing over the last years in doing this is a different type of connectivity, is to see how all those different type parts of our economy work together, and how, for example, the farmers support the local shops and the local tourism, the community and the crafts part of south of Scotland now is at the hub of all we do. So in many ways it's the force from the bottom that's going to drive our economy rather than something from the top, and it was quite interesting in listening to it as we went round. There was no real negativities, so the people of the south of Scotland feel there's a huge opportunity here if we can all coalesce into one economy that all talks in the same way. So while we do have all those challenges and nobody's denying it, we shouldn't also forget that we have an awful lot of opportunities, some great industries and some great people, and some great communities, and with the communities coming into this I think there's a huge future. So our vision for the next 20 years is to take that energy that exists out there within the people of the south of Scotland that want to build on that and turn it into something that they will create over the next 20 years. Mark, do you want to come in and then Stuart? It was just on that demographic point, certainly everywhere does have challenges, but here they are very specific in that you do have a shrinking population in parts of the south and a huge imbalance between young and old, and the projections are in the submissions already about what proportion of people were expecting to be over 75, but that mix has to change, and the young gentleman in the earlier session today made the case very eloquently that we do need to think about becoming more focused on a younger economy, a younger society, and part of that is going to be making our towns more vibrant, part of that is going to be addressing the connectivity issues, which is not just about the number of roads we've got but the number of buses that are on them, and there is a huge job of work to do which I think the agency could be incredibly helpful with. Stuart, you wanted to ask a brief question that probably has a brief answer. Elaine Moray has said, aiming to be the best in Europe, is there an idea of what part of Europe that might be comparable in its problems and profiles that is actually doing well and what structurally, because we are looking at a structural change here, are they doing that might guide us as to how to help the south of Scotland most effectively? I think that that's actually something the agency would be looking at. I don't know if I can actually answer that for you just off the top of my head, but I would actually see that as one of the things that the agency might be able to do, which would be look for examples of good practice elsewhere and see how they can be adapted to the south of Scotland. I actually think that the productivity challenge that we face is the flip side of the really strong locations in Europe and actually we need to have a focus on entrepreneurship. The agency needs to drive forward innovation and innovation in its broadest sense about business improvement, not just that new product development that many people talk about in terms of innovation. I think that that's what can pull the economy forward and encourage a more diverse range of businesses in the area and more larger growing businesses. The other area that I wanted to move on to and which Russell Gregg's touched on was from the grassroots up and business startup, because obviously this new enterprise board is going to focus quite a lot on businesses and so on. Is the main issue to try and get more businesses started in the area, because I think that that has perhaps been lower than the rest of Scotland, or is it to grow existing businesses or is it to bring in big businesses? Hold on, sorry. Gavin wants to come in and then I'll bring you in. It's very difficult and I apologise if I'm trying to steer a very tight line that everyone gets a chance, so I apologise if I don't get it right, but Gavin first and then Russell. I think this is a fundamental opportunity. I think the answer is yes to all three, but I would say that, wouldn't I? I think that the problem we've had in the past is access and reach and availability of the markets. I think that across a geography of many, many small communities who weren't actually economic drivers, it's been really difficult for business startups and many of our businesses, with more businesses per head than elsewhere in Scotland, they don't normally come through the public sector, so therefore I think it's about how you count them, but even then the traditional sectors down here are very traditional, they're long established supply chains, so therefore there's not a low-wage economy, the ability to start up new businesses, because actually without digital, which is now coming, access to markets, particularly as you move further west, almost became impossible. So actually I think we became almost a self-affirming prophecy around the businesses. Actually it was almost dumbing down of a period of years. I think the opportunity we now have is by recognising that we want the agency to be everywhere, in every community, with all the partners presence, that actually will be where these young entrepreneurs and people are. The digital R100 rollout will actually be able to connect our businesses to creative industries, new industries. Why wouldn't you want to live in a beautiful place like this if your market was, say, Scandinavia? And I think it's connecting that almost like the moon's aligning at the one time is what the agency can do. It brings significant capacity. I mean the councils have done what the councils have done, but our teams doing business start-up are only less than a handful of people. If we'd everybody working in every community bringing as one large connected partnership team, that's when we'll start to pick people from school through and attract entrepreneurs to come and live here. Why wouldn't Tesla want to build it in the green lungs of the bit between the central belt and the northern powerhouse? That's where we sit. Why wouldn't you, if you're a green company, want to locate here if we can provide the skills and the technology? That's what the enterprise company can bring together for me. Russell. I guess one of the things that we won't stop doing is talking about businesses and talking about growing enterprises and whether that enterprises are a community, whether it's a social enterprise, whether it's a small business or a large business, doesn't really matter. I think that's the culture, the change that we want to see through the enterprise agency in the south of Scotland, which is to understand that we give support to everybody that wants to grow and help grow the economy. If you look across our patch, there are as many growing communities, others are growing businesses, and those communities are a mix of small micro-businesses, of community enterprises, of all sorts of things. Excuse me. That means that we'll have to have a very different type of support system that works with those, similar to the one that they have in Highlands and Islands, and we've been up to look at that and there's some really good examples that you can take for that, but it's a recognition that an economy like ours doesn't just rely on businesses because a lot of the thought and the growth and et cetera comes from across the whole of the communities and not recognising a community in itself as a business or something that you can grow is a real detriment to what we would do if we didn't do it properly. So, yes, we'll do all those, but in many ways we have to stop thinking that economic development is about businesses only. It's about a whole raft of other things that you need to grow at the same time. Jamie, you want to come in briefly. Thank you and good evening to our panel members. Part of the criticism that we've had around the reasons that why people leave the area are some of these issues around things like local housing supplies, local connectivity and transport, et cetera. This new agency will not be the great panacea of these problems. Many of these things are things that are already under the control of local authorities. What makes you think that the agency will be able to tackle things that perhaps you've been criticised of not being able to tackle? I'm going to give Mark and Elaine the opportunity to answer that. Mark, do you want to go first or? If you're convener. I suppose that the essence of the agency is going to be scale. It's going to be significantly larger than just a small local authority acting by itself with its relatively restricted budgets, but it's also about what's been happening with SOCEP over the past year that it's been aligning all of the other agencies. I know in the session you had this afternoon and in previous sessions there have been questions about why isn't X agency doing more, why isn't Y agency doing more in the area. All of those agencies like Visit Scotland and Scottish Enterprise and SDS will still exist and will still operate across the south of Scotland, but the new enterprise agency brings an opportunity to drive those forward and to align them and effectively to call them to account in a way that local authorities sometimes struggle to do. I think it's that additional heft that the agency is going to put to their work right across the south that is going to make the big difference and start driving some significant and noticeable change. I agree with Mark that it's actually about alignment because there are a lot of different agencies working already in the south of Scotland. This is an additional one, but the south of Scotland enterprise agency needs to be that final part of the jig, so in order to work successfully though I think it will be important that everybody knows what everybody else contributes and what everybody else needs to do and I think probably some consideration has to be given us to how that is done in practice because otherwise you could get councils doing the same thing as the agency and not working together properly, so actually the structure is going to be quite important when it comes into play. John, you've got a brief question I think. Yes, just very briefly thank you very much, convener, and thank you for having me at your committee today. It was for Professor Griggs who made the comparison with Highlands and Islands Enterprise. I wonder if you could just confirm on the record that the agency will have the same per capita funding as Highlands and Islands Enterprise because obviously that's been very very successful in that particular region of Scotland. My understanding is that I can be very short on that, is that what it says within I think the financial memorandum to the bill, so that would be the case. Colin, do you want to come in on that? I was interested in the fact that obviously the new agency will exist alongside Scottish Enterprise, we'll still be there, Skills Development Scotland will still be there, Dumfries and Galloway Council will still be there, but the bill is currently silent on what mechanism would be put in place to make sure there isn't duplication or probably more significantly there are still not gaps because that's the biggest criticism at the moment, there are gaps in the support to enterprises in the region, so do you have any views on what mechanisms could be put in place within the bill to make sure that all the agencies are working together and in the point that I made, Elaine, that everybody knows what each other is doing? Volunteer is an idea, you could be through some sort of memorandum of understanding between the different partners in terms of what we all bring to the table and what we expect each other to contribute, I think it's probably quite important, it's maybe something the committee wants to discuss with the Cabinet Secretary, but I think you do need to have something that ensures that it works as effectively as possible. Some of it will be surely to do with the dynamics of the person that's leading it as well, Russell? Part of it is already in place and it's kind of like the bill, what we're trying to do is give ourselves room to move as we grow, so where we've got to with, for example, Scottish Enterprise at the moment, is the agreement is that the new agency will have the same relationship on day one as high currently has with the Highlands and Islands Enterprise, so on things like the manufacturing advisory service, overseas trade, et cetera, the stuff that's done at a national level that will carry on, but like high, all the local services, et cetera, will be done by the local agency. The reason we've said at the beginning is, as the agency develops, it may well develop some skillsets that are then useful to the rest of Scotland. One of the things we want to see, I guess, as we grow these three economic development agencies across Scotland, is a better sharing of expertise between the same, so we don't need an expert in every one for some of the things we do, which will get round the duplication. On day one, the agreement is between ourselves and Scottish Enterprise, as the relationship will be exactly the same as they have with Highlands and Islands on day one, which is the national programme state where they are, including the ones with Highlands and Islands, and we take over the new agency takes over the local services. Okay, I'm going to move on to the next set of questions, which Mike you're leading on, Mike. Thank you, convener, since James kindly asked my question number four, I'll go straight on to my other question, which is question number five. Why do you think that the new agency should just cover your two council areas and not South Ayrshire and South Lanarkshire, who have the same problems, I would imagine, as the Dumfries and Galloway and the Borders councils? So, I don't know who wants to go first there, but hopefully the fighting on the committee is not going to extend to be the fighting between the two councils. Who would like to go first? Gavin, would you like to add off on that? I would say that if you look at a GVA in Dumfries and Galloway, I mean sitting now at the bottom of the wage list of 32 councils, even with Western Isles now above, I think we need to move at pace. We've proven working together through the alliance that we have long developed working relationships. We know each other, we trust each other, we've got the shared aims, regardless of the political colour of the councils. We've come together around a shared objective and I think that would help us to move at pace. The nature of our economy were different. We have a different make-up of our economy. We don't have the dominance of a large urban centre to draw in, but the other thing is that what we design here would allow us to move at pace, but it doesn't mean that where we see the opportunity across a border for Cistern to Dmerlington, that that wouldn't be stretched. That's key to the way we're working down in the partnership. But for me, we need the agency to move and move quickly, otherwise we will not be able to recover. I actually think that the working relationships will develop and the way we're now working with the multi agencies through the partnership under Russell proves that we can work together at this level. I think that moving it beyond that would start to dilute the ability for it to move at pace, but it doesn't mean that the edges are moving into the deep rural area of air that the opportunities of projects would not extend. They do currently. Brian, do you want to say anything or do you agree totally? I agree with Gavin, but the south of Scotland, if you take the two local authorities, is a very distinct and understandable proposition. I think as soon as you start taking in parts of other local authorities, it becomes confused. John, you had, I think, a follow-up on that. Good evening panel. It was for Professor Griggs or indeed Mr Dixon, and it was about your submission. When I read it, I wrote where is the south of Scotland across the top of your key messages because at number nine, you say in a quote here, the suggested geographic area for the new agency is correct, but the new agency must be everywhere in the south. Can you expand on that, please? Because Highlands and Islands Enterprises, and before the HIDB was often cited, of course there already are historic and very clear, the Crofting Counties analogy there. What's meant by that, Mr Dixon? Rob, I think you want to answer that to you. The basis, as Mark and Gavin have already said, of bringing Scottish Borders Council area and Dumfriesen Galloway Council area together is one that's been a consistent partnership over quite a long period of time, 10 years or more, through the south of Scotland Alliance. We definitely believe that the proposition as framed in the bill that it should be these two council areas is correct, and it's correct because of the unique nature of this geographic area. The rurality is greater in those two council areas than if you extend into the South Asia or South Lanarkshire or more of the Asia. Even at a measure of population density, the changes are quite stark as soon as you go into those other areas. That's not to say that they don't have their challenges, they absolutely do, but I think we're clear that those two council areas have similar challenges, a similar base of operating, a similar position in terms of economic potential and economic challenge at present, and that's why it makes good sense to bring those two together, both for the partnership, as is at the moment, but also for the agency as it's formed. No matter where you draw on a line in a map, people will have comments to make, but just to continue the devil's advocacy, people in Peebles, for instance, might have a clearer identity with the Edinburgh area than necessarily with Strunrar, and similarly people in South Asia and South Lanarkshire more readily might identify with Infries and Galloway. What latitude would you see around this issue? Let me try and answer that because we actually went to Peebles and spoke to people of Peebles about that, and I guess all you could say is you're right, and they're right as well that they say they do associate themselves with the borders. I think across the whole of the south of Scotland, a lot of people think they're different, but as we've gone round and spoken to them, there's a lot of key issues that go across everybody, and I think the people of Peebles, yes, do see themselves as drawn to Edinburgh, but also see them as a key part of the tourism offer to the south of Scotland, and indeed, if you look down towards there, down to Galloway, and what has happened through cycling, which they now see as the key tourism driver for the whole of that economy, that is very much driven by the south of Scotland and not from Edinburgh, and I guess one of the challenges about anything you do in an area like ours is understanding what are the key drivers in each community, because this has to be, I go back to what I said earlier, about communities leading what we do and not from somebody at a time trying to make a decision for all the communities, which might well be different in its detail, but there will be similar issues across them all. Emma, you want to come in briefly and then I'm going to come to Peter Chapman. Thank you, thank you, convener, and thanks everybody. Dumfries happens to be the town where I live, so I welcome everybody that's here tonight, and it's actually great that the committee's coming here, but Gavin mentioned political colours, and we've got a Borders Council, we've got Dumfries and Galloway Council. I'm interested in when we're exploring long-term plans or key aims, priorities and goals, how do we make sure that the colours of the politics don't interfere with long-term goals, that goals can be established and then that plan can be stuck to as far as what is the greater good for the whole of the south of Scotland, even though we've got two local authority regions and then all of the history behind years of election cycles and things like that. Gavin, is that something that you should answer or should a councillor be answering that, so you don't get put in a difficult position? I'm always in a difficult position, convener. I would like to start it and then add to the politics. I think the answer is almost like a previous question. We need to align the planning processes. I don't think anyone of any political colour don't want the same outcomes that don't define success in the same way as having high-skilled jobs retaining a young people given opportunity and choice. I think if we keep to those strategic aims, how we get there will always be a matter of political debate. I think the criticality for the agency is to have a plan in which other plans feed into the same language. I think too often, particularly in the south of Scotland, the language has gotten the way. We talk about the same thing in different ways. I think if it's more about setting those high-level strategic outcomes of what success will look like in 10 or 20 years and aligning the planning processes, making sure that all the plans take account of each other, because the agency would believe that it would be a statutory community planning partner. Therefore, we use that mechanism to make sure that everybody focuses on those key high-level aims. For me, I've never met a politician who doesn't want children to have opportunity to be well-fed in good high-paid jobs for their area. If we get the planning at that level right, then the law will always be the politics lower down. We're excluding politicians and moving straight to Brian. I want to look backwards in this instance as well, because the south of Scotland alliance has demonstrated a strong cross-party shared view of where it wants to get to. The alliance is rotating chairmanship each year between the two councils. Different parties represented around the table and has worked very effectively. I think that demonstrates that shared vision across the different political spectrum. Mark, you want to come in. It's an interesting question, because I've never seen this in terms of party politics. Naturally, it's the first discussion I can remember having that included party politics in it. Elaine and I are of slightly different hue, but I can say from the Scottish Borders Council perspective, my predecessor in this role, who again was from another party, if he was sat here, he would be equally enthusiastic about what we're asking for the south of Scotland. I don't see that small-scale party politics come into it at all. Elaine, do you have a balance? I think that the establishment of the agency might mean that the economic strategy is less at the vagaries of the electoral cycle, because it's an independent agency and it's not local councils determined that. Had that said, I have to agree with the others. The establishment of a south of Scotland enterprise agency has been, I think, in the manifestos of all the political parties in the south of Scotland. We've all campaigned for it. My experience in the Parliament is that members of different parties were prepared to work together when it was for the benefit of south of Scotland. I think that all politicians across the south of Scotland tend to put the south of Scotland first and when necessary, they put their political agents aside in order to further the interests of the south of Scotland. The next interesting question that is going to come from Peter Chapman. Peter, I'm interested in the practicalities of the setup of the new agency and I'm going to ask some questions about offices. We want the new agency to be accessible, so there's a feeling that there should be more than one office, certainly. However, if there is a headquarters needed for legal purposes, where should that HQ be, considering that, unlike HIE, there is no natural capital of the south? Elaine, you can get first followed by Mark. I would see the headquarters as a nominal headquarters because it's required for legal purposes and therefore it doesn't really matter where that is. What does matter is that the agency works right across the south of Scotland and it co-locates in offices, whether it's with the public sector, the private sector, with social enterprises, whether wherever is most appropriate in that community, it works right throughout the south of Scotland, rather than from a spanking new headquarters, either in Dumfries or Peebles or wherever. The minister will make that decision on where the nominal headquarters will be, but rather than seeing one big shiny brass plaque in a reception desk somewhere in the south of Scotland, I want to see plaques right across the south of Scotland that say South of Scotland Enterprise is here, is here, is here. It needs to be absolutely embedded into communities right the way across the south of Scotland and it might only go to a tiny little community on a Tuesday afternoon or when it's got appointments, but the really vital thing is that it gets absolutely out there and the members have already drawn our attention to the challenges of the scale and the extent and the morality and the difference in our communities. That's why South of Scotland Enterprise needs to be in all of those places right the way across the south. Briefly Russell, I'll come to you and then back to Peter. The headquarters is just a mailing address really. I mean that we didn't use everywhere lightly. We strongly believe that wherever people need to access this new south of Scotland Enterprise agency they have to have a means to do that locally and therefore that means going back to the point that Jamie made earlier in the earlier session about how we use our resource. We see a lot of our resource going on co-locating with community organisations, with social enterprises, with businesses, so we'll have hot deaths everywhere and therefore that allows us to use our resource funding actually to provide an economic driver by providing extra income to those places. Yes, of course we'll have a place where all the mail goes to, but it's really important that everybody in the south of Scotland believes that locally they can go and access that and that will be the resource plan in terms of our infrastructure or somebody else called it the other day our tube map of what happens across the south of Scotland. Peter. I have a lot of sympathy with that idea that co-location is one way to do it. If you want as many offices as you possibly can in a cost-effective way then probably co-location is the only option. How do you see that the new agency developing its own identity if it is co-located in all cases right across the south? Will it lose its own identity somewhat if it's always located with other organisations or how do you feel that's a possible danger? Rob, you were nodding your head. I think it's a challenge but I think as you've heard already in the way that the questions have been answered and you heard this afternoon, the agency is keenly anticipated. Chair, when you asked for sure hands I was sitting at the back but I think it was unanimous might be exaggerating slightly but a one against I'm sorry not quite unanimous. So I think the territory is fertile for the agency to establish itself and the people in the south want the agency to be established. Of course as a new organisation it needs to do an excellent professional job in raising awareness in having an identity and making that identity strong but I genuinely believe the existing public sector players want that to happen they see that as helpful. Businesses want it to happen and communities want it to happen as we went around the south to 26 events that is what we were told unequivocally in every location. Perfect, well then we'll move on to the next question which I think is Stuart Stevenson. Thank you very much indeed, convener. Looking at the terms of the bill that's before us there are four aims at section five which are economic and social development, amenity and environment and then it goes on in paragraph two of that section to list quite a long list of things and I want to just focus on one or two of them. Business startups, entrepreneurship and enhancing skills are among the things that it says are included in what South Scotland Enterprise would do but these are clearly ones that are the responsibility of other bodies and may remain so. We heard from Russell Greig's and I think Elaine Murray memorandum of understanding but given the granularity of these different things are the particular challenges as to how we make these cross-cutting things that are clearly on the list with South Scotland but they're also on other people's lists or should we simply eliminate them from other people's lists? Who would like to get your but I should have said at the beginning that if you all look the other way when a difficult questions are so I will end up nominating somebody so on the basis that you did all the other way Mark how about you start that one off? No I don't think we should take responsibility for various things off of other agencies lists but I think it's very much for the work of the board when they get established and for the work plan to define who is doing what, who's pushing which projects and whatever and I think Russell and Rob would be better at answering this than I am but the indications are from the South of Scotland partnership which is the interim leading into this is that that as an organisation has been successful bringing the national organisations to the table and asking them to do some heavy lifting and also coordinating with local authorities as well. So Rob before I bring you in Gavin sort of half offered to answer that say Gavin. Rob would jump in first. I think that if we shove everything in the one basket we could create another beast that very nature of public bodies grows itself and in fact what we're wanting is something that's very focused and I think we've proved in the last year working with Russell and Rob is that actually you know responsibility can stay where it is but a single accountability and we all feel singularly accountable within the partnership and I think for me it's proved we can work together if actually we've a framework to work together and what the the partnership arrangements have given us that framework that I'm building up that trust between bodies and I think we need to split that you know let's not create another beast that could life of its own actually let's get it like a scalpel but actually with an underlying joint accountability for all the partners and I think it's the framing of that in the planning process and accountability processes we want to be accountable for the economy of the south as a partnership and then we view the enterprise agencies as an essential gap that we have at the moment. Can I just be absolutely clear you said responsibility and accountability where are you saying to the committee that you are looking for other agencies with whom this new body will have to work having a formal accountability to the new enterprise agency or were you trying to say something slightly different? No I think I think you're singularly accountable for everybody agreeing the one plan we create like skills development Scotland are preparing a South to Scotland skills plan I think it's making sure that everybody that commits to that plan is accountable for it and actually it's not us being accountable to enterprise agency as a partner under community planning we should all be accountable to each other as a partnership and I think what we've been testing in the last 12 months is the ability of the partnership to stand those tensions. I really do want to bottom this out are we suggesting that if it's skills development Scotland who have developed something possibly at the behest of the new agency that they should be reporting and appearing and accounting directly to the new body now because shared accountability is no accountability I do forgive me with my business experience that's the way I kind of look at things. I think maybe not to create a governance beast as well but I think it's quite right if you've agreed to deliver something as part of the plan as a partnership I would expect you to expect to be called before if you fail to deliver. A supplementary but Rob I bring you in briefly you might get another bite when John's asked his question. Okay thank you chair I think Gavin's put his finger on on what the essence of the issue he here is we're being asked and the partnership as a temporary arrangement has been asked to have a new model a new approach and at an official level I'm charged with bringing together and coordinating the work of the seven public sector agencies it is a partnership it's what our title is it is just a partnership at present. I have to say the willingness of the partners to sit around the table and contribute their resources in new and different ways has been probably one of the most exciting things that the partnerships been able to achieve in the last year. So whether it's about as you heard from Michael Cross a new assistant director for the Scottish funding council or whether it's about the additional money that Visit Scotland have been able to invest in the south or whether it's about the SDS regional skills investment plan or the 6.6 million we've invested with the colleges these are all new initiatives that the new model has enabled but the focus on the delivery has been brought about by the presence of the partnership the organisation responsible for the delivery of each element remains the best placed agency to do it and I think Mr Stevenson was driving at that's where the accountability needs to sit with that agency positioned quite clearly as delivering something in the south to which it should be accountable to the south agency in time. This has sparked a whole lot of supplementary questions so I'm going to go John Finnie first and then Finnie and then John Finnie. John Finnie, thank you convener and it was with regard to the the question about duplication the one aspect that would mark out the proposal different to what the present situation is the social remit. Now I apologize for repeating what to some people would have heard earlier and paragraph 5 2 sets out six actions five of these relate to economic and social development only one relates to social development and that's narrow and relates to supporting community organisations to help meet their community needs to me that's key and I wonder if there's an opportunity to look at things different one of our contributors in the previous session talked about economic indicators and wellbeing is there an opportunity to think yes of course we want jobs and force can we take the focus away from the balance sheet and perhaps concentrate in some of these fairly intrinsic things that would make a community a good place. Russell would you like to come in on that? I guess I heard the discussion earlier on and I guess I don't agree that it's only one that's there because that assumes that it's only business that can do the fact the ones that we've pre-before and I don't believe that I believe that communities and social enterprises and all sorts of things can be involved in A, B, C, D and E so I think there's a spread it's because we have this fixation that only businesses can deliver those things and I don't agree with that I think communities and so to me the bill's fine as long as you put the context on it that what we're talking about here is getting everybody to contribute towards economic development in the south of Scotland and not just businesses. Doting from evidence we've received but I wonder if you'd like to comment on Professor Griggs and the opportunity to view things differently I mean people talk about the human kind index for instance wellbeing factors like that they don't readily show up in a balance sheet but they are very important. They are indeed and one of the things we were asked to do when we were asked to create this new agency through the partnership is to be creative and innovative and to have a look at what was there currently and whether we want to change that and I think we'll do a lot of that so for example in terms of supporting inclusive economic growth we're already just about to finishing a big piece of work we've done in the south of Scotland to say what does that look like for the south of Scotland which we're happy to come back and share with the committee so we've got from Gary Gillespie's economics team who has pulled up all the stuff in inclusive growth we've had people talking to businesses people talking to communities to look what an inclusive growth model would look like for an area like the south of Scotland so we are trying to be innovative and see what that will change in the way some of the bodies work and the way we have to do things if we're going to now speak to farmers, foresters, small rural retail and bring them into the way that we support businesses in the south of Scotland and communities how do we do that and what differences does that mean we have to make and change the rule but it does that. The word growth presumably. Well growth's a really interesting word if every business in the south of Scotland grew by two and a half percent we wouldn't be sitting having this discussion so it's not just about. If communities grew we wouldn't necessarily be having this discussion. Absolutely correct so I'm contradicting myself so if communities grew if you got so growth is a really interesting word and the trouble is that growth to get hooked up with businesses that want to grow at huge lengths that's not what growth is about if you look at my own little art centre in Sankar that's grown from an art centre to re-establishing Sankar knitting throughout the world which has spun off another two businesses in our little community that's huge growth and that's the thing the type of thing that we have to support so it's about just understanding that growth is just not about growing big companies. I think I think we've taken that one as far as we can John in the time Finlay you'd like a quick question. Thanks convenience just going back to something that Rob said about all the different agencies coming together to deliver now would that plan be put together by the agency which then of course would be approved by the Scottish Government would those agencies be held to account on that plan or the aspirations that the board had and or would they just be expected to deliver on the plan so who ultimately would make the plan I presume that's the agency which would then be approved but would the Visit Scotland or SDS or SNH have to deliver to the aspirations of that plan? Rob we are going to come on to plans in some greater detail say because I think this is a wider question so I mean if you'd like to answer it briefly and then I'm very happy to part the accountability of plans to slightly later on. I think I can answer it in one word which is yes. Perfect well that's you know that doesn't that never happens on this committee that somebody keeps an answer to one word so let's try and see if we can keep a short question from Joan to follow that. Thank you thank you very much again convener. Yes again it was going back to Stuart Stevenson's original question about these different agencies and partnerships and creative industries is something that's come up in a lot of the submissions and I know it's a priority for a lot of stakeholders in this region. My other hat is as convener of the culture committee and I know the potential of the creative industries enormous potential to create jobs but also we know that there are tensions with the way the creative industries are dealt with by different agencies at the moment. They fall between Scottish Enterprise and Creative Scotland and I just wondered if Professor Griggs was aware of those existing tensions and how they are going to be addressed when the responsibility passes to the new agency? Aware of them and yes it will be dealt with when it's passed to the new agency trying to keep that answer brief. Okay so that's all under control it's all dealt with. On that note Stuart I think you've got a follow-up question. Yes I'll make this my last bit from this section convener. We've talked about what is in the bill what the new body is going to do but one of the inputs we've had from Newcastle, from the District Community Trust although I suspect others might say this too is that what the bill doesn't cover in particular identifying infrastructure decisions such as transport and connectivity given that those are things which will be important to making this a successful innovation. What relationship to decision making on these subjects and perhaps one or two others should this board and the south of Scotland have? Mark and Elaine I think those are sort of questions in your area Elaine do you want to start that off? It's a difficult point isn't it as what should be in the bill on the face of the bill and what should be in the action plan I think that's what the tension is because we could put other things on the face of the bill look at other things I think which are important like reversing the demographic change we've spoken about that about improving connectivity about promoting cultural natural heritage they could all be on the face of the bill too. Can I just help a little bit by saying I'm simply looking at the list that is provided in the bill which is it's a list that includes and then it gives a list and these are not on that list and I suppose my question is should there be? I think there's an argument that they could be on that list and I think that's probably a discussion that the committee probably would want to have with the cabinet secretary as to where exactly those sit because I think that some of these things are very important to the success of the agency. Can I also say actually about your earlier question about accountability I think there's also a very important issue about the new agency is accountable to ministers but I don't see on the face of the bill where it is accountable to the people of south of Scotland and I think that actually merits some discussion as well. And Elaine I guarantee we're going to come on to that Mark. In terms of things topics like connectivity and digital connectivity I would kind of hope that they would drop off the work plan in a few short years that they will be tasks that have been sorted out now. There is no bigger critic of rural broadband in my part of the world than I but I think it's important that the bill itself is high level and enabling and looks forward to a time in 10, 20 or 30 years time and still looks relevant and I think those topics are very much for the board to tackle through the work plan. I think everyone's hoping that connectivity and broadband will be fixed very shortly and Richard Jaws is the next question. Can I say it's clear that the panel clearly has very high expectations for the new agency but can I remind you the council or no council should be or will be running it? This agency how should this agency be managed considering positive outcomes may take years to achieve? Who'd like to lead off on that? Hey so you're all doing it again you're all looking away. I'm not sure I totally understand the question to be honest when you say no council will be managing the agency certainly I wouldn't have any aspiration that the agency would somehow be managed by local authorities. Well Elaine for the time for the time that I've known you I'm sitting here basically getting the feeling that council wants to get their fingers into it but anyway that side who should be running or managing and what's taking on board that there won't be basically there won't be positive outcomes for many years to achieve. Mark you want to? I disagree I think there will be positive outcomes coming coming very quickly but all of our benefits are not just going to be short-term ones. I mean so say I pronounced in partnership with Scottish Borders Council this week that we're opening a textile centre of excellence in Hoig now that will start doing its work in a few weeks time so that will be delivering good before the agency is even up and running but a lot of the big structural changes and those region-wide demographic and economic challenges are going to take a long time and the simple question of who is there to run it the agency is there to run it once ministers have established it and that's why it's important that there is an incredibly good and rigorously chosen board who are holding the officers of that agency to account. I initially thought that the councils should be on the board. I don't think they should because I think the board has to run this and I think the councils have to become very good and critical friends of the enterprise agency when it's established and I think we probably have a much louder voice if we're directing our comments to the agency from outside rather than having to rather sit on our council hands if we were to be sat on the board itself and those comments were made earlier this afternoon you know that board has to be packed with exactly the right skills and I suspect sticking a couple of councillors on it is not going to come high up the list but our submission does make clear how we want to see local accountability through an expanded south of Scotland alliance which is heading towards the Highlands and Islands accountability model. Richard, just sorry before we go on to your next question, Russ would like to come in on that so would you like to come in briefly Russ? It's very quickly to say I think whoever manages who should manage the new agency in the end is the people of the south of Scotland while there is a governing body there that runs on a day to day basis and therefore it's no coincidence that the first large amount of money that we spent in the economic partnership which will go through into the new agency was this money on getting more young people trained in the south of Scotland in different things in different ways because that yes that was from listening to what the people as we went round and talked to 600 odd people we did about what they saw was the thing that they wanted to do most of the south of Scotland and that was keep our young people and one of the ways you keep your young people is by having them trained and in different things here and therefore whoever runs it has to have and it was part of what was discussed at the previous session. Whoever the board is will have to have tentacles groups however we want to do it out into the business community into the community community into all the population just to see that how it does so in many ways my answer to that question is it has to be the people of south of scotland because if in the end they don't like the south of scotland development agency then it shouldn't be sitting in place in the first place can i say i totally agree with you in regard to that can i move on to my next question the committee has heard that new agency will not be given certain of the specific powers which both se and hie have such as the powers of compulsory purchaser information requests do the panel members think our and agree that the new agency should have the same powers in these regards as scotland enterprise and highlands and islands enterprise or even do you think it should have more powers i'm i'm going to take one answer if i may from each of the councils and and and probably brasil or rob so who'd like to head off on on that one brian do you want to go with that thank you gunvener i this is something we've closely considered and actually we don't think that there are broad missing powers i think compulsory purchase powers are a classic example where actually through that partnership work with local local authorities and building on that strong partnership that would be in place the powers that are currently vested with local authorities could be used for any any rare instance of compulsory purchase so i think by working in close partnership there don't need to be additional powers and elaine do you want to come back i mean hie never used the power i'm not hugely exercised about whether or not the new agency has powers of compulsory purchase or can compel people under criminal uh uh or it could be a criminal offence if they don't give information or whatever i'm not i don't actually think those are sort of absolutely crucial to the to the working of the new agency but i would say on the issue of accountability i think there could be a case made for councillors being on the board or the parallel with uh health boards and so on but i think maybe what i'm more concerned about is how people are held to account in the local communities and i would like actually to see reports on the action plans coming back as they do from police scotland and fire and rescue service coming back to the local authorities or indeed to the area committees of the local authorities so that people can actually see in wigginshire or wherever how is this working for me how is this working in my community mike rumbles he wants to come in and then we're going to move on to collin i mean i wonder to just follow the question the first question that richard posed and that was he was talking about he asked about managing a very high expectations that people have about this bill and in this bill it's a bit like the island's bill that the committee looked at before this is an enabling bill it's setting up an agency but nowhere does it discuss resources uh money um what i mean is there an exit i think from i just heard the previous meeting that there are expectations out there that this is going to be um the expectations are very high um hasn't nobody got any comments to make so far about the lack of resources being mentioned here the ministers are looking at least initially to um direct parity with but on a per capita basis the budget of highlands and islands reduction in Scottish enterprise budget do you think i i i i i i i i i i think some of some of some of the some of the discussion um the that you've had in previous sessions and in and in the session this afternoon was was that um perhaps there hadn't been quite as much Scottish enterprise activity in the south as as a lot a lot of people would would like I wouldn't expect their budget to be cut because this agency is being created. This agency is at a regional level holding those national agencies to account. I quite like to bring in John Mason on that, and I know Gavin wants to answer, and I think Russell wants to come in and try and spread it out a bit. Thanks, convener. It was on the financial side, and to be Divell's advocate slightly, can you really justify the same funding as HIE get? HIE is an incredibly big area with umpteen islands which cause them huge challenges. Surely your challenges aren't as great as that. Capital, isn't it? It's not the same funding as high, it's the same per capita funding as high, and we may not have islands, but we have some extremely remote communities in both the south of the recent Galloway and the Scottish Borders. Mike, have you got? I would like to pursue this because the witnesses seem to me to be engaging in the same very high expectations, and maybe that's a good thing that we have high expectations. I am worried personally, it's the same as we took the islands bill through this, and we went to Orkney Island and to Mull, and people there were equally expectant that when we passed the islands bill, island proofing, that magically things would immediately change and everybody would get better, but the resources aren't in that act now. The resources aren't on here. I find it strange that you believe that there's an awful lot of extra money going to come in here somewhere, that Scottish Enterprise budget isn't going to be cut, and is it not therefore the same money? I'm going to bring in Gavin, and then I'm afraid I'm going to have to move on to the next question, just purely because we're time limited. Gavin? We have entered this in good faith for the last 10 years, and what we're looking for is additional funding. It must be additional to what we currently get, so therefore it's not about a smaller cake, it's about a larger cake, and that would be a matter for the minister's side in his bill, and we will hold the minister to account locally. The second is that it's got to be sustained. What we've suffered from, and if you look at, I mean, Highlands and Islands wasn't a success overnight, there's sustained investment being able to make those long-term plans, and there's also the recognition that from day one an agency couldn't spend a whole budget given the vagaries of government accounting, but it's that commitment that this must be a larger cake than we currently have, and that's what we're asking for. Russell, you're nodding. Okay, thank goodness I'm not going to fall out with you over not bringing you in. Colin, yours is the next question. Thanks very much, convener. Can I add a term to the issue of local accountability? Rob, you mentioned it was important that the new agency is accountable to the south of Scotland, and Russell, you said frankly that if the people of south of Scotland don't like the agency, it shouldn't exist, but I've got the bill here under the section on accountability. There's absolutely no mention whatsoever of any local accountability. So how should the agency be held to account? Because there's no mechanism in the bill to allow that to happen. Goodwill's fine, but that may not always be there, so how can it be held to account locally? What the bill does say, if I can quote it, is that ministers will appoint all the members. It states the agency must comply with any direction issued by Scottish ministers. It says that the agency's action plan can be changed by ministers, which, unlike the Highlands and Islands, there's no legal requirement to consult the agency before they make those changes. So there's lots of accountability to ministers, but there's nothing at all in the bill about accountability to the most important people in this, which is those that live in the south of Scotland. Rob, thank you, chair. I think Councillor Murray's touched on this earlier, but my description of how we address this challenge, and it's an absolutely legitimate and important challenge, is to try and describe what I see as almost a triple lock. So there is the ministerial accountability for the organisation. There has to be, as Councillor Rowland and Councillor Murray said earlier, an accountability to local elected members, and I think the evolution of the south of Scotland alliance to allow that to happen into something that looks similar to Convention of Islands and Islands will be very successful. It'll take some time to develop, but I think that'll work. My understanding is that the new agency will be a statutory partner in the community planning partnership, and as Councillor Murray said, I would expect and I would anticipate that it's absolutely four square prerequisite of the agency that it reports on an area by area basis to whatever area arrangements each council has, and I think that's area committees within each council area or local area partnerships that we have in the Scottish Borders area. In other words, the agency should be visible to those people who will make the judgment that Russell identified, whether that's senior councillors through a convention model, or whether it's local ward councillors and local community interests through a local area partnership discussion, or to the minister. That triple lock, I think, is what gives you the accountability across the whole range of needs. If I can come in with a question, which is if there is to be a plan, a 10-year plan was suggested at the previous meeting as a reasonable timeframe, do you think that the Parliament should have a scrutiny or oversight of that plan, or do you think it's sufficient for it to be done at local level? I would expect the agency to have the plan in a similar way to Scottish Enterprise and High, and my understanding is that planning process works pretty well, and with local development, local discussion, a board agreeing the plan, I would think it beyond comprehension that the plan arrives with a minister having not been consulted on publicly and not been consulted on with local stakeholders. I can't foresee that that would happen, and at that point the minister is accountable for it, and the minister, I would expect, and indeed the chair and chief executive of that agency could be sat here in years to come while you have a look at that plan and what's been delivered in the previous year. I've heard the phrase triple lock, but the bill is very clear, this agency is accountable to government ministers who can change the action plan without even consulting the agency, never mind the local council or other stakeholders having a say in this. So where is the lock in the legislation? Do we need something to underpin what you're saying? Because actually there's nothing at all in the legislation to make sure that what you say you want to happen will actually happen. There is no accountability locally within the bill itself, as it currently stands. I may be that other panel members have got views on how we can have local accountability, but we can have lots of ideas, but unless it's underpinned by legislation, then we're kind of just wishing it happens rather than making it happen. Rob, briefly. Very briefly. I genuinely think that's a question for the cabinet secretary to answer, but I've set out how I think you can make arrangements locally, which should satisfy the needs of local populations, communities and also local elected members. Leng. I don't think that the minister should be issuing directions without consultation. I think I understand that in the high legislation that ministers consult and I think the same respect ought to be shown to the board of the new agency. I think it might well be worth considering whether there should be something on the face of the bill as well to include local accountability because I think it is an omission at the current time. Colin. Just on the issue of engagement then looking at it from another point of view of actually involving the community and the decisions of the board. There's been a lot of discussion about the importance of young people and the demographic challenge we face. Do you think they're sufficient in the bill to make sure that key stakeholders like young people in the region are consulted by the new agency? Who'd like to answer that? Russell? I think he goes back to the point that Stuart was making earlier and I think Mike did that. This is an enabling bill so I think there's enough in there and given all the conversations that we've had in fact Rob and I are off to visit every high school in the area over the next six months to make sure that young people do have a say in this. How we then do that as a board comes in. I think that is back to the enabling you do as a result of this. So I think there's plenty in there because if you put in young people you start to get into who else should you put in there. So I think Colin, I'm content that there's enough in the bill and from all that we've heard from everybody else to say that if we didn't have young people at the centre of what it is we were going to try and do, not just through the partnership but the agency following, we shouldn't be probably doing what we're doing. Okay and I'm sorry but we have run out of time and I know I've upset two members on this committee because I can't bring them in but I'm afraid our time is up because we have another panel to do. So I'd like to thank those people who've come and given evidence. I think there was a question before Russell whether you'd be made to squirm during the committee meeting by somebody who I overheard say that. I don't think so but your evidence has been very useful all of your evidence. Thank you very much for attending and I'm now briefly spending the meeting. I'd ask committee members to stay in their seats while we change the panel. Thank you. To the second evidence session this evening with panel two, I'd like to thank all of you for coming. Introduce you all first, I suppose, PIP table, partnership manager for Southern Upland's partnership. Ian Cook, director of Development Trust Association Scotland. Dr Callum McLeod, policy director community land Scotland. Neil, I'm going to get this wrong. Request in, is that right? Perfect, thank goodness for that. Board member of Newloo's community trust Barbara Elborn, the secretary of Newcastleton and district community trust and Lorna Young, the consultant of Indigo Woods. You will have seen, I think, some of the previous session. You don't need to push your buttons on your speakers. They will be activated for you and if you want to say something could you try and catch my eye and I'll bring you in. We are quite tight for time so short answers will hopefully follow short questions and the first question is the deputy convener, Gail Ross. We, apologies, thank you for keeping me right. Sorry, I've now wrong footed the deputy convener, but it is the deputy convener, Gail Ross. Thank you, good evening panel. We've heard a lot during all our evidence sessions, the session this afternoon and the session just before about the major challenges facing the south, but we've also heard about all your assets and your strengths. So what do you think that the major strengths and assets that we can build on are and what the major challenges that this bill can address in the agency? Who'd like to head off on that Callum? Thanks indeed to the committee for the opportunity to give evidence of this really important session for a really important bill. There are, of course, challenges. Demography's one of them and I'm sure you've heard much about that already. One of the very interesting assets that you have in the South of Scotland, which is mentioned in the policy memorandum, but which has not to my recollection had that much discussion within some of the evidence sessions, perhaps you'll correct me if I'm wrong, is around land itself and land as an asset for the south of Scotland. And really it's clearly integral and important that the south of Scotland builds on that and has opportunities to make the most of the land that's there for economic development and the social aspects that tie into the remit of this agency as well. And within that context, the Committee on Scotland would, and you perhaps expect us to say this, would suggest that building on that is in terms of what the agency does, what the enterprise agency does, is very much around support for community land ownership and community asset ownership as well and how that might actually be implemented and undertaken in practice within the ambit of the agency. Now, Hans-Anne's Enterprise has a very clear remit within that context. It has a community assets team. It's had that since 1997. Committee on Scotland argues very strongly that the new agency should have that type of resource also within its structure to build upon what is identified as a very important asset for the area. Does anyone else want to talk about assets? Barbara, you want to come in and then I'll come to you. Thank you. I would like to say that Newcastle has recently taken and established its own community assets and as a result of ownership that has engendered the community to drive things forward. So I can wholeheartedly agree with what's just been said but I'd also like to add that the first question is about what's the strengths of the south and I would actually say it's people-based. Without the strength of the people and the communities that are the backbone that make up the whole of the south, then there isn't any strength really, ultimately. It is understanding and giving the people the opportunity to share their wisdom and knowledge of their own and determine their own needs and working with the public sector that will give it the strength that it needs. Ian, you want to come in. I think the challenges have been quite well articulated in the previous sessions. Again, I would just like to build on what's being said in terms of the strengths. I mean, I think when you look at not just the borders and the Ffizzing Gallery but the whole of Scotland, one of the Scottish success stories is what's happening in terms of community-led development, community-led regeneration. There's a lot of that happening already even before the agency set up and it was really good to hear Professor Griggs talking about that. The vision for the agency is a fresh approach and my question is where is that going to come from? I think the answer to that very much lies in these communities that are shown amazing enterprise, creativity, innovation, addressing market failure. I think that's for me the key strength. There have been a lot of comparisons with HIE especially in the area of the Highlands and Islands as a whole. We've also heard that there are a lot of differences as well and there will be differences in the way that the enterprise agency works and we've just had a really good report which was commissioned by HIE about young people that want to remain in the Highlands and it's gone up significantly. Why do you think so many people leave this area and what will the new enterprise agency bring that will enable them or encourage them to stay? Pipp, do you want to go on that? I'd say it's a partnership which I manage has been lobbying for something like this new agency for about 20 years because we've looked with huge envy about what's been going on in the north where we see communities have been supported to develop all sorts of new enterprises whether that's based on land or renewable energy or whatever. I think the new agency is going to have to spend quite a lot of time energy catching up but we have the same assets, we have the same potential in this part of the world. If we can nurture that by working with communities that already they're doing some exciting things fully agree there's some really good examples of good practice in this part of the world but we've also got a lot of communities that are starting from a very low baseline and there's a lot of catching up to be done so I'm really hoping the agency can start to work with some of the high capacity communities but also nurture some of the lower capacity communities and I think if it does that effectively young people will want to stay because they'll start to see there are huge opportunities in this part of the world that they can take advantage of the reason I think they've been leaving in recent years is because those opportunities just haven't been visible. Barbara you want to come in and then I'll bring you in Lorna. Thank you. I think as far as we're concerned we are miles hours away from accessing education and to get our young people to actually attend colleges that or stay on for further education is a challenge it already takes an hour to get them to senior school and it takes two hours to get them to a college so having an outreach education programme as part of this new initiative is absolutely fundamental to keeping young people in the catchment area. I don't know how it's going to manifest itself but being able to do local apprenticeships without having to send young people to college will make a massive difference. Lorna you want to come in? Yeah in the longer term I don't think it's about keeping our young people necessarily because people will naturally want to experience living elsewhere and myself left the region and came back when I was in my mid 20s. It's about more having a more balanced demographic I think one of the reasons why young people want to move away is to experience other places other cultures to develop skills that are maybe more easily developed in an urban area rather than a rural area but then providing these opportunities for people to want to come back perhaps start family perhaps to experience the high quality of life we've got here it's about understanding kind of the broader offering that we have for people at every demographic stage. You heard from Michael earlier on about consulting with young people and I think that one of the challenges that legislators have had in the past is as we said before top down legislation rather than bottom up. How do we make sure I know that Russell said that he's going to go into every high school now and speak to the young people in there which is fantastic but how do we engage more with these young people to make sure that we're actually doing stuff that is going to benefit them and the things that they want us to do not well what we think we should be doing for them? You'd like to come back Neil and then Ian and we'll see where we go from that Neil. Well I would just say that I have some first hand personal experience of young people who want to leave the area in fact I encourage my children to go and see the rest of the world and I really do want to make the south of Scotland here a place that they want to come back to someday when they gather up all their experiences all over the world I want them to actually want to come back here and I think we do have the we have a lot of unreleased potential in the south of Scotland that I think wouldn't be very difficult to realise with just a little bit of imagination and I like the idea of what Russell was talking about a bit his idea of community and this feeling of pride in our community pride in our area and you know just making this a very attractive place as far as how do we engage with these young people that's concerned this I think all too often that when we go to engage with people and to consult with them we spend far too much time talking and we don't spend enough time listening I think there's not enough listening going on all round and although I think the south of Scotland economic partnership has done it's very best to get everybody's attention and get everybody talking I think we really need to go round again because I think we've only fired a volley here we've fired a warning shot we've got people's attention now's the time to start listening I think. Ian. Yeah just to pick up the um the engagement theme I think there's some great examples already in the south of how you engage communities and whether it's young people or whether that's the adult population and William Dumfries and I think the South of Network have got a fantastic sort of track record of doing that and that kind of use of kind of creativity arts activities is a really successful way to do that. I think one of the key lessons that's often missed from the high experience was particularly in the early years there was a great emphasis on on cultural development and I think that kind of cultural relationship took place provided the backbone gave a sort of stronger sense of place to young people and they have come back and they have got a stronger affinity with place so I agree with what's being said but I would add that to the evidence. Finlay you want to ask a follow-up from that. Thanks. Just come back to a statement that Callum made I was wondering where the barriers are relating to community land assets in the south of Scotland where we've had some fantastic examples of the Muller Galloway trust whatever so where are the barriers at the moment and what legislation within the new agency would overcome those barriers? Some of the barriers are kind of cultural to a degree in terms of where communities see the opportunities to actually engage in purchasing land or assets itself and it's traditional historically of course community land ownership land reform in general but certainly community land ownership has been portrayed as kind of north west highland issue and a rural issue well if we've learned anything over the last four or five years it's the case that it's very much not that it's for something for all of all of Scotland the rural and urban. I've got a situation here in at the moment in Scotland where we've got 562,000 gibbertake acres and community land ownership in Scotland the vast majority of that is actually where I come from the western aisles and and right with that the broader highlands and islands you've got 794 acres of land and community ownership in Dumfries and Galloway and Scottish borders combined so one of the main barriers I would suggest in community land Scotland would argue is partly around culture and thinking where the opportunities might lie and as you've said Mr Carson there are some fantastic examples of where that's happened we need to kind of have that domino effect working throughout the south of Scotland to see and learn and engage where there are opportunities to do that and that's why it's critical you can have all the kind of legislation in terms of community right to buy and Scottish land funds fundamentally important terms of supporting that but also what is important as well is having the actual institutional support that can enable communities to actually see where the opportunities are now the Scottish land commission has just sent recommendations to Scottish government around the future of community land ownership and aspects around that and they have recommended very strongly that this new agency in the south of Scotland has as I said earlier the equivalent remit and role that the community assets team and unit has in Highlands and Arsentevaith that will be a critically important aspect in terms of just helping to to move that collectively beneficial agenda forward I would suggest just to come in and then we'll go back to Gail Ross for the next question key issues or barriers to community asset ownership is community capacity it is a believe me I've been there I've done it and I've run my own business but actually to be held accountable for something that you believe in to the benefit to add real strength to your community is a challenge and to get funders to have confidence in you as a group to support that the idea and the acquisition and to give you the budget to be able to develop that acquisition is an enormous responsibility so it's really really fundamentally important that the new agency has got community capacity in its remit somewhere we desperately need support to help those communities drive this forward thanks for that and that leads quite nicely on to my next question can you give any experiences or perceptions about the current support available from agencies such as Scottish Enterprise or business gateway the colleges and skills development Scotland Barbara I'm guessing you might have a view on that yeah I go back to 2004 in my community where we have struggled to get an appointment of a development officer whatever you want to call them we have worked as individuals and as voluntary organisations to drive forward projects and we still don't have a development officer we have been turned down by public sector agencies because we didn't meet the criteria that was preset so the opportunity to change that criteria through this new agency is absolutely critical we've been turned down by funders because we didn't meet the right agenda their prescriptive agenda which is the right agenda for them for why they're awarding the budgets but I think this is an opportunity to start a new a new ball game and to give those the communities the opportunity to have that support there seem to be a lot of nodding there it's again to be some good news from someone lona and then followed by pet I think I would make two points first of all I deal with a lot of small businesses and also a lot of community development trust so I see both sides the current provision at the moment is quite segmented so if you fit within the predefined boxes then then all is well but but most people don't and so that can be quite frustrating when you're trying to access support I would say the other the other big issue that we face in south of Scotland is sustainability and the ability to plan for the longer term so we have a lot of community development trust here who are on annual funding so they really can't make any long-term plans because they don't know whether or not they'll have an officer in post this time next year and I think these are these these two aspects are both things that the agency should address as a matter of urgency just back up Laura's point there because one of the key problems we have our experience of working with communities is that most community development workers when you when you can secure one it's project funded therefore it's time limited therefore it's one or two years maximum and in our view if you're serious about growing community capacity which I think we all are serious about it's a long-term process it's not something you can do in a limited period of time and I'm really hoping the new agency will take that long-term approach to community capacity growth because that's where the future is up Stuart you wanted to comment it's a fairly brief thing it's just looking at the draft of the bill at 5 2 f among in other words it's includes what the body must do supporting community organisations to help to meet communities needs is that sufficient in the bill because it's a list of things they've got to do but not telling us how they need to be done because that's the responsibility of the body itself Callum is no it's the short answer to that Mr Seaman is no it's not sufficient and we would certainly community on Scotland would argue strongly that certainly the support that I mentioned to community organisations with regard to ownership of land and assets would be most beneficially included on the face of the bill itself because as you say these are these are broad sorry may I intervene share of course can you give me some specific words you think should be in the bill the enterprise agency should include within its remit and I can have to finesse us afterwards um responsibility for supporting community land and asset ownership that's fine thank you that was um a quick answer well done um now I think the next question then comes down to Mike Mike it's yours um now folks I'm going to ask the um devil's advocate question you know the basic question basically is in previous sessions on the committee we've had a very evidence from Scottish Enterprise we've just had evidence from the two local authorities and the south of Scotland economic partnership all four of these organisations have remits within them which are similar to the new one similar not the same but similar and they have all their responsibilities already for economic development so here we are we're going to create a new body a fifth body in statute and my previous question to the other witnesses was about resources and budgets so we're now going to spread this between five different organisations rather than just four any comment in other words why is it important for the south of scotland to have its own enterprise agency in addition to all of these neil followed by in I think we have we need to have a really complete change of culture here I heard the lofty ambitions of some of the earlier speakers there and some of them want to be the best in the world some of them want to be the best in Europe I would just quite like to be the best in Scotland to be perfectly honest and I think that that is achievable I think but it won't be achieved if we do more of the same of what we've been doing already because that's already been proven that we won't end up the best in Scotland if we keep doing that so I think if we I think at the moment there's this perception that you know all the heat that's being generated in the south of Scotland is actually in the middle and we're feeling quite cold out at the outside out in the edges there and there's great huge potential out in those edges where I live out in in the west there the the rinse peninsula is practically an island community but that in itself is a huge asset that could be developed and I think in the people in Dremor which is as far west as you can go if they wake up in two years time and discover that the south of scotland economic agency is in Dumfries we've failed if the people in i mouth wake up in two years time and they discover that the south of scotland economic agency isn't st boswells we've failed we need to make sure that the whole of the south of scotland is feeling the heat and and that way we'll all prosper the whole of scotland will actually benefit from that not just the south but there needs to be a complete change of culture and that was going to make a sort of broadly some of the point i mean i think that if we're being honest about it a lot of what's happened in scotland around community development community generations happened in spite of scotland enterprise and in spite of business gateway etc with the exception of probably high in the islands so i think what's desperate is is a need for cultural change in the public sector right across the public sector and we need to change attitudes we need to get communities taken seriously we need to get this moving beyond the rhetoric i've worked in regeneration for 30 or years now and communities that are always at the heart of policy documents but that's still them translates to the actual kind of reality of what communities face and how how things work out so that kind of cultural change that attitude will change crucial and that's why i think there's a cure for the new agency to do that okay i'm going to bring in uh richard you want to ask supplementary i was a local governor councillor for 36 years can i say i totally agree with you uh the point you've just made spread the jam can i go back to my original quick question should councils be be on the board or have any control of the board um i'll just i see you wanting to come in nil i'm just wondering but nil go for it no thank you i'll have short answers anyone else got a comment on from that callum i came in just towards the tail end of the last session i think local accountability is is is fundamentally important to this agency that's one of the reasons that you need a new agency i think mr umbls was able to come back to your your point there who's involved with that in terms of representation needs to be broad in terms of the skills that are there it should not just be the kind of usual suspects in terms of that and it should certainly include community interest in the broadest sense in that context because if we're talking about doing things differently and having a new agency which is going to actually address these economic social environment on culture aspects well we do need to have that kind of bottom up grassroots accountability frankly what do you want did you want to come in on that where the council treads you tend to create suspicion and angst and therefore if you don't have to have council members on the board it might be better if they weren't i think i think i'm going to part that one there without taking that any further jay we do you want to lead on the next question thanks for me and i'll keep it very brief because we're short on time this evening um some of the people in this room have been campaigning for an agency like this for well decades um as it stands does the bill deliver what you've been asking for and if it doesn't is that because you haven't been properly consulted in this process in other words could it be better you'd like to uh pip um i don't think it does fully satisfy us as yet um we were very happy to work with rob Dixon and with Russell Griggs on the community consultation which they ran across southern scotland i think the message is coming through that consultation exercise are very loud and clear people wanted to be engaged they wanted a new agency they wanted it to reflect the culture and heritage values of southern scotland there was a huge amount of excitement of positivity there strong calls for clear accountability i think everybody wanted this new organization to be as transparent and as close to the people as possible and i think the the need to to address community issues came through extremely loudly and my concern with the bill as it stands is the community component of it is very weak and the environmental bit of it is also rather weak and i'd like to see both those parts strengthened and that's what we put in our written submission it's quite a lot of nodding there from the panel does anyone want to add anything on top of that Barbara if you want to thank you um yeah i would concur with what's been said but i would also add and i think it was mentioned in the previous session about um having arms and legs uh in order to be able to influence infrastructure decisions new calcidon and many other communities in the south of scotland we describe ourselves as a land locked island um and uh in terms of accessibility and these sorts of things and deliverables um we have insurmountable challenges and we must have the agency must be able to work with others um in a streamline process so that there is joined upness amongst all the public sector agencies uh we cannot continue to battle as individual communities and fight every single war um and it does feel like that sometimes um thank you morrin i think yours is the next question thank you convener and greeting panel uh just to follow on what Barbara said i think you and perhaps some others in your written evidence said that the bill lacks powers to influence things like infrastructure like connectivity transport could add housing into that mix as well um can i have the views of the rest of the panel on that and why do you think the south of scotland enterprise agency would make a difference in that area given that the power is probably lying at currently with some other body i mean the last panel said uh just uh that connectivity didn't need to be uh broadband connectivity because it was all going to be solved shortly um there's a few shaking heads perhaps that would help help you answer morin who'd like to go on morin's question callum would you like thank you very much um clearly the agency has uh an important role as other panel members have mentioned in relation to connecting up and helping to connect up different elements with the with the god to development but i think the yes a laudable ambition to think that digital connectivity will be sorted out imminently um i'm not sure that's the case i think it needs to it's pretty fundamental in relation to uh going back to the very earliest point about people being the most important resource and and making sure that people actually are retained in population maintained in the areas in the region itself so so that's fundamentally important but the agency as well has has uh i think an important partnership role to play in terms of connecting up with with other areas of development to whether that's around housing whether that's around obviously job opportunities and other kind of cultural and social opportunities as well of which are actually going to play and to the strengths of of the region itself in terms of its asset base so in that sense it's it's got a very important role to play i think uh ian you know communities looking at how they move forward how they address quality of life issues take a holistic view to their place and it's about place and i think that was kind of touched on in the last session we almost got there this is more than just economics so i think a key challenge for the um the new agency will be what can do beyond the the narrower economic agreement because if you're talking about young people unless there are more affordable housing young people will not come back or or will leave it can tend to leave the south of scotland so i think it's that ability to kind of have a wider vision and look at how the economics sits within the creation of good quality places where people want to work and live sorry can i wouldn't you want to do really really important that that idea of place making and what the assets are in a place which are going to make it attractive and ultimately sustainable as well now one of the things that community land scotland's been engaged in over the last gosh 18 months or so is is around we're calling it kind of people's legitimate place in the landscape and what we're really talking about there is just what is it around about rural areas and often sparsely populated rural areas of which there are of course in the southern uplands here areas of that that nature is of what is it that's going to actually improve the prospects of rural re-population in areas like that and it very much does have to be around place making and it very much does have to be around having the conditions in place and the infrastructure in place and the opportunities jobs and and for more broadly for well-being of communities to actually experience that in their every day lives clearly the agency has not the exclusive remit but an important part to play at that local level in terms of doing that regional level i think i'd like to bring in neil and then longer if i'm out neil i would just like to say that the you know the agency i don't think it needs to be loaded up with super powers here because we've already mentioned that this is like a 10-year plan it is going to be a marathon it's not going to be a sprint so as long as as long as it's as long as the agency delivers it gets off to a good start and creates a good environment to work in i don't think it needs to be top heavy with with powers and things like that it'll work but it's not going to work overnight don't know you understand yeah i think i think one of the key things that's important to to be aware that the south of scotland agency is going to be transformative because we're going to have a public body that's going to put the south of scotland first and that in itself is is new and different and will change how how um other public agencies are influenced that's going to act as a conduit or a linkage between the south and and the rest of scotland um and the other point i wanted to make was in terms of rural development generally i think where it works well is where it's understood as as a as an ecosystem in itself so where um support traditionally is again segmented through um different agencies with a a sectoral focus i think the south scotland agency is going to be looking at the south as a ecosystem in itself an economic ecosystem a yes a network of communities and that systems approach i think again is is new and different and fairly radical um and so and and that gets back to one of the key things that was raised earlier it's how things are done going forward perhaps rather it's going to be more important than maybe what's done more in an idea of that um in a previous evidence session when um there was a kind of comparison with highlands and islands enterprise and there are probably more social enterprises in the highlands and islands because of a different ownership system in many parts of the highlands i wonder whether you think that current land ownership is perhaps a bit of a break on on development and economic growth in in the south of scotland and whether there are opportunities for more community land ownership and therefore social enterprises and and therefore um a bit of growth in the economy um Callum i'll start with you i well yeah well thank you very much indeed community thank you very much for that question i i i was reading the the previous um evidence sessions within this and i i i notice you you asked that same question to uh Douglas Cown of Highlands and Islands Enterprise and i was interested in one of the points that you made in response to that which was around um applications to the scotland fund uh and he said that Dumfries and Galloway was i think third in the list of of local authorities which were actually putting applications in in in relation to the fund itself and in support so that to my mind um opens up or is indicative if you like of of interest within the south of scotland in Dumfries and Galloway at least in relation to the possibilities of community land ownership as a mechanism for the sustainability and place making of communities themselves now that's important because you'll hear different arguments about the place or otherwise of community land ownership in terms of development uh some will argue that it doesn't matter who owns the land it's how it's used that counts and to be sure of course it is important clearly as to how land is used but ownership actually gives you some element of control and enables you as a community to uh sort of shape your own destiny to to to a large extent because you're able to think about the choices that might be made in order to make places more more coherent and more more um suitable to to to the communities that live in them in terms of what their aspirations are and i mentioned right at the very start of the session that the glaring disparity in relation to the level of community land ownership in the highlands and islands and the south of scotland 794 acres combined and in in Dumfries and Galloway and and boulders is not indicative of uh a kind of flow towards moving toward community ownership so there are opportunities that this agency can help to address in that sense. Thank you Calum. I'm sorry to be uh the one to cut people short but we we still have questions so short answers will allow me to get through all the questions which will then keep the committee members talking to me so um I think Ian you wanted to come in with with a short answer. Just briefly I mean I think that um economic development regeneration as you say it does require the efficient recycling of land and land in the legal sense so land and property um so whether it's an empty shop in a high street or a or a or a gapsite or whatever um it's it's how it's done and it's getting property from the hands of people who aren't doing anything with it into the hands of people who are going to do something constructive but whether that be communities the public sector or whatever so I think that's quite crucial it's a key key task for the new agency. Okay okay good um Pip I think it was your organisation uh had the view that improving the immunity and environment of south of Scotland needs further interpretation in the bill could you expand on that little please? Yes indeed I think our concern was that that wording is a little bit passive uh slightly suggests that the land is there nature is there to be to be capitalised upon and to some extent that's absolutely fine because we want to see southern Scotland making more of the assets that it has access to but equally we think it's really important that it's capitalised on the ways which aren't going to damage it and therefore I think our feeling was that we should be a bit more specific about how we value the environment that we have and the natural and cultural assets as well. Use them by all means and use them as creatively and innovatively as we possibly can but do it in a way that's not going to harm them and I think just being explicit about that would be quite valuable. I think I think okay I think Maureen I'm afraid we are going to have to just say finally and you didn't let me in on the last bit so can I just ask Maureen with the greatest respect I'm sorry I've got four more questionnaires to do and I've got four minutes so I am going to have to move on and I'm really sorry I apologise Colin yours is the next question. Can I just ask the panel if they have any thoughts or views on how we can ensure local accountability of the new agency and specifically how do we ensure that the board reflects the south of Scotland so that we have for example people with experience in small business family run enterprises the third sector trade unions young people and other community groups how do we make sure that they are on the board if you like of the new agency is that something should be specified in the bowl for example would two of you like to to offer to speak pep you are nodding furiously sorry break your pardon if I was I agree completely I think all those are really important audiences for the agency and therefore we need to find a mechanism for engaging with them and and being accountable to them how you do that I'm afraid I haven't got a magic solution it's a huge task it's a big geographic area it's a very broad audience it's going to be a very broad agenda that the agency is delivering on it's going to be a hard task I think the agency the partnership has started very well by going out on the road and speaking to communities across southern scotland I think that was an excellent way of starting and perhaps just repeating that on a regular basis would be one way of doing that listening to what people are saying somebody's already said how important it is that we listen I think that that's a message that that the agency needs to take on board do you very shortly and then Barbara appropriate very shortly it's critically important that the agency has local accountability for the community themselves I don't have an obvious answer to that but it must not be lost sight of in terms of the the bill Barbara I think it's really important that the board is made up of the right calibre of people to do the job so it's got to be skills based first and by definition because it's it's got to be an inclusive board to deliver the job that it's got to do in the marketplace that it's doing it it will include representation from communities and social enterprise companies and and so forth by definition it must and and all seriousness now I know we're running out of time so I'll keep this tight how would you ensure that south of scotland economy benefits from the employment opportunities and procurement opportunities the new agency could bring to this region it's all just been elected so tell me I mean in and then Barbara I think you are almost operating in I think procurement is a huge frustration for communities because for the last seven eight years within the Scottish Government we've been talking about creating opportunities for communities committees want to run local services create local jobs etc and I don't understand the the detail of or the barriers and part of it's blamed on the EU and and and procurement directives etc I don't quite understand that but we've got to to do that we've got to push contracts and tenders and down to the lowest possible kind of community levels if we don't do that the same companies will come in and mop up and we don't keep the money within local communities we've got to build local economies and I think procurements key to that yeah thank you again speaking from experience we've had to go to public procurement and it's added hundreds of thousands of pounds to projects that we could have administrated ourselves locally for better we understand the need to be accountable to the public purse but again I think that there is a new way that we could look at doing that to ensure that procurement is done within the within the catchment area okay Richard they're all employed chairman they can you know thank you okay and the final question is normally mine but I'm afraid we've run out of time purely because not because we don't want to hear more evidence from you it's just purely a logistic things of getting people back to Edinburgh and and trains on and connectivity so I'd like to thank you all for for giving evidence to the committee I would also say that it's been hugely informative so thank you for your time I think at the last meeting I made an offer that if anyone wanted to if I'd missed anything and you'd felt rushed that you could actually submit to the clerks by the end of this week on the email that you've got to this anything that you think that we may have missed I would ask you to remain seated well I move on to the next item on our agenda which is the consideration of two consent notifications in relation to UK SIs as detailed on our agenda these cover committee the important trade of animals and animal products and animals and food all the instruments being laid in the UK parliament are in relation to the European Union withdrawal act 2018 both SIs being categorised as category B to the extent that the transition from an EU to a UK framework would be a major and significant development committee members you've had a chance to look at the SIs are there any comments that you would like to make take Stuart first followed by John Stuart just to agree with the recommendation that there is in the note that's before us that we would should ask in both cases that we've kept up date by the government in one case the replacement of the traces system and the other system identification and registration of various animal health related issues thank you Stuart John thank you I agree with Stuart on that point I think it would be helpful to be kept up to date I also think like to comment on the the letter from the minister of third January and as I did in the previous session draw attention to the fact that whilst this is satisfactory it's a very poor substitute for remaining in the European Union and I think it's important that that's on the record right okay well what I what I think we've agreed then as a committee that we've agreed to write to the Scottish Government to confirm we are content with the consent of the UK SIs referred to in the notifications and note a request for response from the Scottish Government on the wider policy matters identified are we agreed we are agreed that concludes today's committee business and thank you committee members and thank you to all the people in Dumfries and the boarders in Galloway for hosting us today it's extremely kind of you and we've very much enjoyed being out of Edinburgh thank you very much and I'll now conclude the meeting