 Okay, so this is the Weaving the World Ops call on Wednesday number third 2021. I'm going to screen share, connect this to SETI because they're homophones intentionally. So there's that. And then I've got this with communicating with animals. And I've got dolphin communication already under it. And I should have military dolphin stuff. I don't know. I don't have a lot here, do I? John Lilly. So I will add some more here. Human Binding Computer Isolation Tanks Center for the Cyclone. The Order of the Dolphin. I've forgotten about that. He studies psychedelics. So dolphins plus psychedelics, what could be wrong with that kind of a career? I'm just saying. And I've got Lilly under famous LSD fans. Carrie Grant, did you know that? No. Stanislav Grof, Timothy Leary, of course, Artie Lange, Francis Crick, Dick Finan, yeah, all famous LSD fans. And Al Hubbard, the guy kind of sewed LSD across the West back in the day. So Hubbard turned Willis Harmon onto LSD from Ions and I'm going to connect Willis Hubbard to famous LSD fans. And then I will stop sharing and pause the recording. So fun digression complete. So I was interested in kind of co-working to do some of the standing up, some of the episode, I haven't replied to. So for Stacy and Hank, I sent an email to Ken Homer saying, hey, Pete had a very good idea, which was let's do a very short Weaving the World episode 10, 15 minutes max. And then let's do all of the moving parts that the episode needs to have. And so it's basically a practice run, a dry run. But that forces me to have an intro and an outro or an end screen on the recording or for us to step through what the different phases are of processing the recordings. I then need to stand up the anchor account to get an audio podcast started and figure out what that little process is. I really need to get some simple art up so that there are some banners and icons. All those things are like things I need to do. And I'm also keeping in the back of my head what Mila advised, which was just do the simplest thing, my language, do the simplest thing that could possibly work, just start small and don't worry about not having art, for example, what at the beginning, which I agree with. So Ken said, sounds terrific, would be honored to hang with you all anytime. Anytime that works for us all. His mornings are full, but generally after one or two PM Pacific is more open. So I'm thinking let's find a time, let's schedule, let's find a couple of times that work for us within that window and I'll propose those back to Ken and that'll lock down the launch date time. And then also I want to, I think what this also implies is launching the mirror session or the post-processing to fungus session that matches this session because we actually need to walk through the whole process. And so I think we should also kind of book that and invite Ken to it because the invitation I think will always be open for whoever the guest or guests were to join the post-session, the post-party, it could even just be called a post-party. Oh, good. From my surgical acid from, or got to me, exactly. Or got fungus. Thank you. So anyway, does that make sense? Yep. Yep. Cool. And I knew I had or got an agrodomene, there we go, but I don't have or got an agrodomene connected to LSD, which is just really strange. So I just made that link. Harry, did Darryl ever answer you that? Yes, so Darryl Davis, one of my heroes, is the guy who says how can you hate me without even knowing me. He, I friended him on LinkedIn. Then I sent him an email invite, which I don't know if it even got to him, but then I went back and pinged on LinkedIn and I said, hey, sent you an email invite. I'm trying to invite you to a podcast. And he said, yes, but I'm really busy. And we picked December 9th as a date with the understanding that that date might have to wiggle around a little bit. He was like, my schedule frees up and I'm back home kind of early December. So he picked December 9th. So we've got a time set as a working start for when to have a call. I would love to have three or four actual full calls booked before December 9th. So he's not our first, he's not the first episode, but he's in line to be a weaving the world guest, which I'm thrilled about. I also need to somehow send some energy toward Mila and Amber and Joe because I had asked them, the three of them to create an emergent call. Well, to create a call around the issues that we've been talking about. And Mila said, let's make an emergent. I was like, great, but their schedules are really messy and we haven't been, I haven't been able to pin down when that would actually happen. So kind of need to do that. If you guys haven't seen Daryl Davis just talk about his experiences. It's completely worth it. He's just a lovely soul. There's also a documentary about his work, which is really good. And I think I mentioned this in a check and call long ago, but toward the end of the documentary, this just stays in my head a lot. For the end of the documentary, two young black male activists show up. And they really don't like what Daryl is doing. They don't like that he's going and talking to the KKK. They think what you should do is other kinds of activism and fight them and all that. And they're angry at him. And the documentary is really sort of nice about showing this. And that part of it doesn't really come to a resolution. But I just think Daryl is an incredibly brave hero. Because he's dissolving the anger on the other side. And that to me, it's like patience and respect and love are universal solvent of sorts. It's what I take from his activities in the world. And that is actual progress. If he has 300 robes from KKK members, some of whom are grand dragons and senior ranking people in his garage, that's progress of some major sort. Right? Yeah. So anyway, let me pause. Thoughts about all this? Where's the calendar? Yeah, exactly. And actually, let me be a little bit more specific. Where's the production calendar? Separately, there is the publication calendar for the public. But for us working on episodes, getting stuff ready and where do we keep that? Exactly. So I haven't created separate calendars for reading the world yet. So I think you're saying I should crank up two more calendars? I wouldn't use it. I wouldn't keep it in Google Calendar. It should be in Google Sheets or AirTable or whatever. OK, so you mean just a place to track? You don't mean calendar to public? Because one of the things I was thinking was embedding a Google Calendar on the website someplace so that people can see what the episodes are. Something that people can watch and subscribe to. That's probably a Google Calendar, but as volunteer production staff and as chief production staff. So let me share the spreadsheet that I've got going already to start this, which several of you have seen, but not everybody. And it's busy painting itself on my screen right now. Probably in there, there's also stuff confirmed. This is an idea that's in the pipeline or something like that. And we're slotting it for February-ish. Exactly, exactly. Man, this is slow. The little share screen is just busy loading with a spinning spinning wheel. There's a there's a new AirTable-ish clone very much like AirTable, actually, without without quite as much fancy stuff that Vincent would use, but it's really heartening to see it pop up. And it's mostly open source. What's it called? I think it's let me figure it out. OK, and I'm going to Hank already has access to it. Sea table. Stacey, you have access to it, too. Let me add Pete and Wendy. I'll try to add the right one, but it's time to talk about that. Sea table has been out from Sea Cloud, I think, which is a it's kind of like next cloud. It's a foul or interesting collaboration thing. But it's Sea Table is now a separate entity. Oh, that's really kind of Sea Table. I would have called it Sea Table, and I would have thought it was a restaurant reservation system. Well, like, oh, good. They're I think they're German. And I I had a little problem with some of the links on their websites because they're pretty new. And so I got a nice letter back from, you know, VP of something in it. I was pretty tempted to say, by the way, do you know in English that looks like you're talking about being able to sit down? It's a great name for a restaurant reservation system. And if they fail at this table thing. Exactly. So I said to put a link in the chat, given that you all now have access, edit access to the document that should work to get you in. Oh, but they do have a capital T in the middle of Sea Table. So makes, yeah. Yeah, if you're if you're careful with it, yeah. Yeah, exactly. And just from my days as a tech industry analyst, I never like if somebody's if somebody's product or company name was all caps, unless it was actually an acronym, I would never all cap it in the publication. But if it had internal caps, I always obeyed that. So so camel case internal caps. I was like, yep, that's a styling thing that I will I will observe. But if you're trying to attract attention by going all caps, screw you. Anyway. And then also also another another silly little policy. I would never I would never honor 99 cent or $99 pricing. So if something if a private if an offer was 999, I always wrote it down as a thousand dollars. Like, no, not going there. Not playing not playing that game. Refuse to follow that sort of stuff. What a rebel. I know what doesn't that make me like totally a rebel? Yeah, it's like that's good editorial hygiene, I think. Yeah. Cool. OK, so there's the spreadsheet and I shouldn't have Daryl as number one. He should probably be number three or four. So let me just change that. And then we had spent some time and Stacey, was it you and me who went through the list that starts with David Weinberger down here? Yes. OK, that's what I thought. So we sat down, I think last week or week before we sat down and looked at this list and started moving people up and down. I was explaining who these people are and what the ideas were. I don't know how David ended up at the top because my attempt is not to be interviewing white men early in the process. But David is a dear friend, runs really deep and got to say small pieces loosely joined and a bunch of other themes that he's on. He is all about sort of the direction that we're heading in and how this all works. I think we had mentioned that maybe with some of those white men, the way we'd get around it was to pair them with some women. Exactly. So it'd be like speaker parents. It'd be like I think I think Weinberger would go well with a muscat because he's kind of a cervix, so he needs like a sweet pairing. I have no idea. I don't know. Just kidding. A muscat muscat wines, muscat grapes are very sweet. OK. I love muscat grapes. Whenever I see them, I'm like, I buy muscat grapes. They're so good. So, yes, totally agree. And we started to sort of propose some of those things. Michael, awesome to see you. I'm going to post a link to the doc that we're staring at right now in the chat and check to see whether you have editor access. I think you do. Yes. So you are already an editor on this doc. And we're staring at the schedule of potential guests for weaving the world. Also, Wendy Elford put these four lines in, five lines in, I think, and weaving the weavers in particular is like a yes, yes, yes, yes, yes. This this feels to me like a really important thing to just keep in mind all the time, like diverse communities around the world are already doing this kind of weaving, bring them together, take one good idea from each of them and weave these together. That seems to me to be like a central function of weaving the world and the post parties. So let me pause for a second and ask what what's the most fruitful way to collaborate on the schedule? Should I walk through the people and talk about who I wear and we brainstorm more names and then sort them into an order? That would be totally great. Or something else in my experience, if you want to get something like this done quickly, it's good to have a date like not build the field and they'll come but build the date and there's something concrete. So regarding the let's say the dry run, we should at least have a date for that and then one or two people that we want to dry run with. So the dry run right now is with Ken Homer and and I'm and I'm I'm thinking we offer we so I'm also talking about the format, whether it's just Ken and me talking about issues so that it's the smallest possible unit or whether we, you know, say, hey, we're starting this thing and put it out to the whole GM community and see who shows up and and make it a more of a more open conversation, which then opens the question about what is the internal format of the call? Do I do I monopolize the the guests for a while and not? Et cetera, et cetera. So yes. And so Hank, my intention is to take the top four names on the list as sorted and send them notes that say, you know, and send them invites immediately that say, could you meet and and also to meet on their convenience that they are on their schedule, not on a fixed schedule? Because my my instinct is if we say that it's every Wednesday at 8 a.m. Pacific, that that suddenly complicates all the scheduling for any guest, because if you're like, well, I can make that time only in March next year, as opposed to the soonest I can meet I can meet with you is next Tuesday. Does that work for you? Sounds great. And then we do a pop up call for OGMers around it. And I'm interested in feedback around whether to make these group calls or whether to make certainly the post parties, certainly the post parties are open and invite to anybody to come in and weave, especially if you're a mapper and want to take a swing at mapping the conversation, all that kind of stuff. But my my my inclination is to make the initial calls community like open, but I feel like I'm adding complexity that way that may make things more. How do I say it complex? Agreed, I think, yeah, I agree. I think you should try to keep things really simple and then build from a kernel rather than trying to whittle it down. So then the so then I would have a call with can I would post process it some to tidy it up and make it look like an episode. I would send the bad episode with an invite to the post party to every to OGM and whoever else. And they would then need to watch the original episode in order to participate in the post party, which is kind of then becomes a requirement. If they if they can't be on the original original call, they will probably have to watch the original call to do any post processing for the call, which which then is like this one I would keep as simple as possible. You and can post processing and then add just a few more people in to make the the after call. So by specific invite, you mean? Yeah, yeah, I agree with Pete. Although you might consider can plus one person since I think in a lot of the episodes, you don't want to have two people there, so you might as well practice that. But if it's someone that can knows, it makes it easier. Right. And then on this, on this and I just picked Ken because he's been posting reviews of Graver and Warchaw's new book, which I completely love and agree with. And as a topic is also a topic that I'm extremely happy to dive into and have a bunch of stuff already in my brain about. So the weaving will be good right from the start. And I don't know who else is kind of passionate in his way about it, who is also not a white guy. So if we found somebody else, I'd be happy to invite them into that that session as well. Stacey, you had your hand up. No, I was just going to suggest doing it as a fishbowl so that it doesn't add the complexity of other people speaking. But if they want to be present in real time, but just I just want to throw that possibility out. And that's if this was a more open invite, that's the format I would probably adopt. And then the question becomes, this is an honor system fishbowl. It's like, hey, you know, if you're if you're outside the bowl, use the chat or do this or do that. But, you know, don't jump in until the end of the call when we when we open the session to that or whatever. And I I could I could certainly enforce that. But the if I may, the way I see this this initial call, it's really to kind of stress test and learn things about the production process. So it's not really about content. And hopefully you'll have Ken for a real, a real session. But really anything that adds so even even the fishbowl thing, it's like, OK, so now there is scheduling Ken and Jerry and, you know, and oh, Ken had to to change the thing. And then I have to notify all of, you know, it's like. It's the simplest thing to make 10 or 15 minutes of recorded video. That's like, oh, my God, now we have to do something with this. It's kind of what I'm thinking. So this is more like the original hops of the star ship, except we're trying not to blow up on landing. Yeah. Yeah, maybe not pick that metaphor again. No, it's actually a really good one. That it's a superlative, agile, agile demonstration. Agile, agile demonstration. I was I was just so freaking impressed with their openness and willingness to instrument this thing and show everybody. It's amazing. We tried to stick the landing and we blew it up on the pad. And this is what we learned from it. And like, look, we have another one next fricking week. And you're like, how? Right. And and, you know, the previous out of demonstrations, it's like, oh, look, Spotify, you know, uses agile teams to implement features and stuff like that. You know, when you can point to a video of a massive rocket made of stainless steel crashing and literally exploding and burning, you know, it's like, it's OK, throw them away. You know, just keep learning. Yeah, exactly, exactly. And they start simple and then they start adding components. Very impressive, totally impressive. Yes. I have a so part of I think that part of the production process, a big part of the production process, I think is described. I think that. Descript is fun and easy to start to learn. And it may be hard and take a lot of concentration to do it well. I think. The way I see that, Jerry, I don't I don't think that. Becoming a descript, my show is not the thing that I would put on your plate. And I have and the small grant for a couple of months of effort from the Jim Rutt Foundation includes some money for production, which I haven't really used at all. I haven't and I talked with Jim Rutt's podcast producer, who was happy to help and gave me an hourly rate that he'd be available for. And so we could also I could hire somebody who's good at descript or pay somebody who loves descript and wants to get good at it to do that. The only question in there is there's a lot of tight close in editing that you can do in Descript that I may want to be involved in, at least. I think she's involved, but the lesson for me is that sounds like something you want to pair with somebody. Right. So this is a little bit like this is a little bit like the saying in the breakfast of bacon and eggs that chicken is involved, but the pig is committed. Yeah, I don't know why I like that so much. It's a good one. So the way I would set it up is if somebody is kind of driving Descript and you're watching over their shoulder on screen share and you're going, oh, that's the sentence, you know, that's the goal one. Or yeah, sounds like all those things. Pete and I were on a call yesterday. We're at the beginning of the call. One of our friends mentioned a Zoom plugin that is a note taking AI note taking plugin. Then I went and looked at that and there's like a half dozen of these things that are sprouting in the landscape that do full, not only full transcript, but then a bunch of these other things. And because these things are so young, they're not charging yet. So who knows what fees they'll end up on, but they're kind of free to try. So I was like, it seemed very tempting. But then the moment we start using a proprietary, whatever, just as part, which includes Descript, by the way, as part of our flow, we were suddenly breaking a little bit of our rules. But so, you know, we're looking at using platforms like Descript and Zapier and a couple of other things as elements in our work in our production flow, but there's newer and smarter tools just like popping up in the field all the time. It's really interesting, including the video, the preview video for this tool, basically shows during the live transcript of the call, you can highlight a phrase and turn that into a to do item for yourself. You know, you can basically you can basically harness what's happening during the call to go leave action notes. I think we've bookmarks in the call, a bunch of other stuff. It sounded really quite cool. What's what's the rule that you're breaking just to make it to use? Open source everything and to leave our data in openly in the world and all that. So so if Pete writes a script that goes from A to B to C, he can write it in a language that is basically code that we leave on GitHub that anybody else can then go fork and use for free. That's great. If we start using Zapier or some other kind of online service or the script, then they must go get an account and very likely pay for it. And who knows? And we have no control over what that service does internally, right? How it changes and what it does over time. Thank you into that. This is something that I run into in multiple communities. And there's I'm thinking of it kind of a hierarchy of, you know, hierarchy is maybe not the right word or gradual levels or something like that. But the ideal thing is open source, open data formats. And then and then there's a few more things and I probably won't think of them in order. But one of the things is maybe the service isn't open source, but they offer, you know, a very generous free tier or they have a community edition or something like that. So diagrams.net is something like that where it's not open source, but they've kind of committed to make it, you know, they seem to commit to making it free forever. And they're very good with the the data format. It's an open data format, things like that. And then maybe there's something that's even more proprietary, but the data format is still importable, exportable. So maybe AirTable is like that. They've got a pretty good free tier. You bump into the paid tier a little bit sometimes, especially when you get long tables and stuff like that. But their import export is really good. They've got good connectivity to API stuff. So then the, you know, the thing that you don't want is something that's highly proprietary, costs a lot of money and is really hard to get your data out of, right? And somewhere in there, actually, by the way, so Miro is kind of a good, bad thing for me. Miro, because of, you know, because of the flexibility and the stuff, you can, it's expressive. It's very expressive. But if you do a lot of the fancy stuff in Miro, it's hard to get the data out. They are nice enough to make sure that you can get, you know, I ended up exporting a Miro board recently. So I had some experience. You can export like the text and, you know, what objects have what. But if you start having composed objects with multiple text fields in them, you're not going to get them in order and things like that. Or you may not get them. You may get all of the text items for a bunch of things rather than piece parts. So there's kind of a scale of data complexity and data interoperability that Massive Wiki is on really one end where it's super, you know, super interoperable and another one where it's super proprietary. Miro is one of those things that's, even though they let you get the data, it's not as useful anymore in which you try to get it out. I think the Miro problem is a little bit like the brain problem, which is you can kind of get the data out, but there's no other tool that absorbs it and presents it the same way. So you've got a bag of objects. A small side note on diagram.net, which may interest you, Andy, which is that, and I think I sent you a edit privileges note at the beginning of this call so that you have access to the spreadsheet. So if you check your email, you might actually have that. If it doesn't, I'll check again and send again. But diagrams.net does layers, which is really nice. So Pete and I spent a little time yesterday redrawing the multi-layer, multi-plane camera mosaic view that I drew by hand in diagrams.net. We're not done, but I think that's gonna be super useful. Wendy, do you not have it? Shall I try again? Okay, I will try again. Second thing is I'm realizing that we're near the top of the hour. Hank and I are in a positive cartography session in an hour and somebody's going to join here in my Zoom at the top of this hour as a sort of getting to know you kind of call for that. So we kind of have like eight minutes left in this conversation, I'm afraid. Sorry about that. But thank you for your time on this. And let me go fix that with the spreadsheet. So, well, that's what I did. I was just thinking about the road to participation and how I agree with Pete, things want to start off really simple, technically and logistically. But maybe there could be some initial participation from invited OGM users or guest invitees that would yield some people listening to maybe the pre-production version of the podcast, asking some questions that you would curate. And then for starters, they might just be show notes or something written, but eventually they could be the equivalent of when you go to an event and people are asking questions in the questions channel and then the moderator is able to collect them and ask them at the end or make them ultimately part of the process. But the idea of having participation that goes beyond you and a guest seems like something to ease into in a gradual way. Yes, and I was half distracted. Wendy, I sent it to your everyone's wisdom account. Do you have a Gmail account that I should send it to instead? I don't have that. If you can put that in the chat, that'd be great. And I'll double down on that. So, Michael, you were saying other people could be involved and I missed exactly the detail of when they were at what point? Well, I was suggesting that it could be a gradual process that to keep things simple to start off with, let's take you and Ken, you record something, you have a select group of people listen to it and come up with some questions that you then give to Ken and they yield some written Q&A, audience Q&A answers. And that's as far as that goes, but then later it could happen in increasingly real time and it just would be a way to dry run the idea of participation in an asynchronous way that's more manageable. So a variant on that maybe, because I think what I need to also do is I need to figure out how to craft invites to the calls. I think part of the workflow is going to be an announcement of a call coming up and that partly depends on whether the initial call is just me, just a two-person interview or a three-person interview, et cetera. But once it becomes a broader event, I'm writing invites to them and the invite could point to a wiki page where people could pose preliminary questions or other kinds of things like you just described. And then that becomes an artifact in our whole workflow and we can kind of, you know, mind from those questions as we like as opposed to people sending the individual emails or whatever else, we can kind of do this in the public space as well. I like that. Wendy, you should have an email to your Gmail account to get you into the doc. Yeah, and then I'm making changes. Yes, excellent. And feel free to add names and if you want, let's create a field that says who recommended this name or something like that so we know who, what, where. I'm happy to talk about the people on the list if anybody is interested and really open to new ideas for where to go in the couple of minutes we have left. And I think Angel Acosta would be a really good, early guest. I was a guest on his podcast for the Garrison Foundation and one of the lovely things about that conversation was that he slowed us down by doing a breath meditation kind of in the middle of it which was really nice because I probably kind of need people to slow us down. Oh, good, Jenny's here. And trying to figure out how that works. So I'm tempted to send Angel and invite for an early conversation. Jenny, hi, you're coming to the end of our earlier call. You're welcome to be here. Happy to have you meet everybody. Oh, I've always liked to meet new people. Yes, I was very surprised. Who are these people? What's going on? Who are these people? Yeah, yeah, this is a busy room. So we're standing up a new podcast called Weaving the World. This is a standing call every Wednesday morning call which is the Weaving the World Operations call. And we've been talking through whom to invite and when, how to do a short test call up front. What does that mean? What are the formats? What are the moving parts? All of that kind of stuff. Okay. And these are all superheroes on the call. Okay. Jerry, one thought that I had as you were talking about people having discussions, having more than one person on the show. I wonder if in the spirit of Weaving, the idea of having almost a format of, well, while you're the host, the conversation that you guide might be between two people who you pick out for their interesting potential interaction on a subject. So that it ups your chances of diversifying your guests and maybe having some provocative other people who you wouldn't wanna have on solo to give the megaphone to necessarily which is sort of an endorsement, but if you're having two people with slightly different takes on a subject, it just could be an interesting thing to kind of work the weaving toward. And so I just last week did some story threading which is very related here of a conference called I'm finished 2021. These are the story threads that I did. So I story threaded a conversation between Tracy Ryan's and Aaron Solomon. Here is whenever the permalink for their conversation shows up from the conference organizers, which should be a couple of weeks from now, I will add that to this thought. And then here's how I curated that conversation. Now I was not anywhere near their original interview, it was shot elsewhere and I got to just watch that session and then this is my note taking from that. And then I created this video and I'll send you guys a link to the unifying thoughts so you can watch all these if you want to because the videos that I put up on YouTube right now are unlisted, but as soon as this all kind of opens up, I'm gonna just make them public, no big deal. But I've kind of done a piece of that recently without me involving the original interviews. And I'm wondering what a good balance here is because in part this let me hit pause all the time. I was kind of doing call and post-call simultaneously because I would pause and go do a bunch of stuff and then come back and pick up and listen to the session which was totally fine and fine, it took quite a while. So this is like a 45 or 50 minute interview that probably took me three hours to story thread, not counting recording the video afterward, right? And a bunch of this stuff I had in Naya Khan in my brain. So it was really, really easy to just draw a link between him and the call, but then I started looking around here going, all right, he's the dad of the Naya Delay Khan, et cetera, et cetera. I didn't have Shikantaza, which is a kind of silent meditation, but I did have the Cow Dome School and Soto Meditation and Zazen. So I made those links and I was busy like improving my brain as I did the story threading. None of which shows up in my story threading. Oops, there goes my brain. Let me stop sharing and restart my brain. So anyway, that's what was happening and we've just passed the top of the hour. But I'm very interested in some of the nuances here of how this works, also because my tendency is to run pretty fast and to talk quickly and do a bunch of stuff at once and be all excited and I'm not sure that's going to help in this situation. I think being more considered in the pace will help a bunch in making things on the one hand, easier to process and weave. And on the other hand, not whipping past important questions or issues. So all thoughts welcome and we should probably melt this call and Hank and Jenny and I can shift into the next call, but feel free to add anything to the spreadsheet and we've got a Weaving the World Ops channel on Mattermost also for this conversation. So, does that make sense? Rockin, thank you so much. Ploop, ploop, ploop, ploop, ploop, ploop, ploop, ploop. Cool, Jenny, nice to meet you. It's a pleasure. Hank, do you wanna? Yeah, okay. We had a two-hour conversation during the Poslipic Cartography Mapathon with all kinds of old folks. Sorry, Jerry, if I include you with the old folks. I'm an old folks. They're supposed to have young people who never showed up. So that was of course one of the conversational themes of it, but another rather interesting conversational theme was this idea of stocks and flows. I think the context was, or the original context was there's so much information coming at us, data, knowledge, opinions from all kinds of media and some of that might be stocks, but most of it is flows. And how do you know what's a stock and what's a flow or how do you shift from one to the other? And I think there were several other ways we thought about the relevance of stocks and flows. One thought that I kept from that conversation was Lave-Edwardson saying we should become curators of the upstream. And Jenny after the call was quite interested in that theme and she went off for some time to France after that, that was in Germany after that, but now that we're both back.