 Hello everybody, if it's Wednesday, it's Warhammer and that must mean it's time for another episode of Warhammer Weekly Joining me as always My one and only co-host full of Christmas cheer to bring Warhammer news to all The good boys and girls of the world. Hey, what's up Tyler? How you doing? Hey, buddy. Good to see you. Yeah, absolutely. Good to see you Today we're gonna talk about the last season of Generals handbooking we're talking about specifically what went wrong a Little bit about what was right. There was some good stuff in there too, and We'll go from there Absolutely, I'm excited for this one. Absolutely Okay, well Why don't we start with the news hit me? What do we got who's rumor engine 40 k of course? I'd actually seen on Twitter that apparently this Our engine is already out in the wild Well, it is a it is definitely a 40k thing because it's a leagues of OTAN acts that already exists on the leagues of OTAN models It's all that. Yeah, that's pretty funny. So More leagues of OTAN I guess so definitely a 40k thing since they're showing us an image of a thing that literally already exists Next Will King Boxing day miniature. Yeah, man. Hold it Look at this guy on his chair What do you think of this mini? Love it. Yeah. Oh that mini is Connected to a rumor engine image that if I recall is over 900 days old 979 days old when it was revealed Well, yes That's fantastic fantastic miniature So, yeah dig him great. So yeah, this will be available between the day after Christmas and January 8th, I think in stores so Wait Yep. Yeah, hopefully we'll get a few more new things with pleasure to quartz next year One can hope along with this we have full confidence the book is coming Like it just makes sense as because it's you know, we got those two death books coming So let's hope this is a sign of additional Googly-gooly friends to come hmm and Let's see. What else do we have we had a There a meta-watch article the last of the year Take a look at that one. Yeah anything interesting from that article Well, I mean, there's a lot of interesting numbers in this one, right? Because this is the year look back. Yeah Yeah, I'm pulling it up now And so I've got the image up on screen for everyone And so, you know doing a full year-over-year comparison they have the sort of percentage change over the year right You know, this isn't going to give you the perfect image because this is this isn't this doesn't necessarily Best represent like everything that's happened in between and you know all the life that's gone on in the faction in between there I I'm not sure about that heat nights of slanish number That is to say I'm not sure 44 percent represents a plus 17 percent increase So I feel like there might be a little bit of a challenge with the data there But that being said, you know, some of the stuff is obvious like the things that got new books or got love heaped upon them by You know articles certainly have accelerated So that's pretty good You know, it's Like overall what it tells me is it's not bad a lot of armies are pretty decent. They're in the band Right as they're as their current rolling win rate would suggest that's a positive thing The game is in such a great place right now and we're laboring under one of the worst GHVs that's ever been written So that's a little preview of my opinion We'll get into it. Yeah Okay Yeah, no, I mean, I feel like every time we look at this image, right? We say The external balance ecosystem is the best it's ever been. Yeah, because it is It's absolutely fantastic like I look at this and I think to myself Yeah, this is like most people you wanted to see went up went up and most people are right in the band In fact, a lot of people are really in that like if you look at if you make it even tighter And bring it down to 48 to 52 Which is like a really really tight zone you actually still get You know of more than half of the armies on this list All right, and that's obviously not the goal. The goal is 45 55 So pretty cool pretty cool You were to come up with what's the overarching story behind this data What a potential narratives like one comes to my mind is If I think about past the ecosystem past past environments, right? We've had more skew of Particular play style. Let's say power projection range damage always being Good in Warhammer Whereas when I think about this ecosystem, I think that's been better balanced out by Mobile melee Something like that, right? It's not just melee armies, but yeah, highly mobile armies, right iron jaws Blades of corn events of magikin of nergal There's a lot of those that are out there that have been competitive as a counterbalancing factor to the ranged output Anyway, that's one that comes to my mind for why we're seeing this kind of data Yeah, I mean, I think the answer is more meta than that not to make a joke on me to watch but my Answer to your question is very simple the game has gotten more balanced because there has been a strong concerted effort by a lot of very Good people within GW on making this happen and you can see it through both from the Meta watch article we're looking at right now, right? The fact that that they are so aware of these things and have built this massive data set You know apiing out all this data to pull it in real time constantly so they can watch and spot for problems You can see it in the battle tomes and the quality of the tomes that are written for 3.0, you know and then generally Sometimes you have some some internal balance issues that are that are fairly Decent still although even though it's been getting hammered down But even when we have some decent internal balance issues, we're not seeing the same external balance issues We haven't seen a 3.0 tom launch and look like Zinch at the end of 2019 beginning of 2020 that just hasn't happened Right, they just just busted sideways from the rip. It just doesn't happen right So and then when there are problems, they've generally been addressed pretty quickly Through certainly by the standards of how that we've known the everything in the past I mean, it's not a it's not a video game DLC or anything Let's be clear, but it's it's pretty quick all things considered, right? And so I think that that yields that as well. I mean, it's That's basically what it tells me No, good point So and and you know mixed into that is certainly an emergent property of what you're talking about Yeah, or of that is the fact that yes, there is no one dominant play style Right that sort of emerged there's no big shooting bad guy that's just good at killing everybody else or no no 2019 slanesh and flesh eater courts way out of balance Melee monsters, you know with no no proper Scissors to their paper or whatever, right? So Yeah pretty sweet So moving on Ren crack the great I'm saying that right I'm guessing this is a new war scroll that I haven't looked at yet. It is indeed. He's up on screen right now This is grin crack the great and grin cracks loon court. So these are our fun little little goblin boys getting their war scrolls for AOS and so Green cracks this is a hundred and ninety points and you get seven little goblins Okay And grin crack himself is Effectively just a hero like he's not a loon boss. He's not a wizard despite what he looks like. He's just a little hero and he has Little hero attacks like he he's he has a modified swingy sort of stormcast profile right He's got a six up word save himself Although who cares they are probably not going to use that very often for various and sundry reasons. We'll talk about in a moment But he also has I dubbed the At the start of the combat phase you can pick one other friendly moon clan unit Within three inches of this unit to be dubbed If you do until the end of that phase any models that if any models in that unit are slain Those models can fight before they are removed from play So they get fight they get death frenzy. He just automatically death frenzy. It's a unit of moon clan So pretty cool Well, even though I hate the rules for death frenzy. I hate death frenzy as a rule I think it's a I think it's an awful rule Because it just slows the game down to an absolute crawl as you have to calculate out kind of who can Actually pile in and fight and so on and so forth and whatever I would much rather it be that every model that's slain like roll a die and on a five up you do a mortal wound Great, then you can just plow into them do a bunch of damage. They roll a bunch of dice take some damage back Jobs are good and it's so much easier But instead we got to do this fiddly fighting thing But that's fine Timing wise it just doesn't it's not a good effect for a OS in general You also get his little loon court. They have some weapons. It's whatever They have to go on a quest Because they're in the loon court They pick an objective or a terrain feature in enemy territory and holy within just in And if you gain control of that objective or terrain feature while this unit is contesting it This unit completes its quest and if they do they get a ward of four up for the rest of the battle So all your little two-wound goblins I should state there You're all your little goblins are two wounds green crack himself being six wounds This is actually a decent number of wounds like this is 18 wounds on the unit for a hundred ninety points and they actually they act as a Bodyguard unit for a green crack as well giving him a three up so So that's why he doesn't need his six up Ward Hopefully most of time because they're sort of three upping for him instead I'm enjoying these little quest mechanics. They've been adding to number of war scrolls Obviously, we saw this in some of the Dark Oath. Yeah slaves and yeah We talked about it with FEC right like I want to see this become a major mechanic of FEC if any army should be going on quests Sacred charges quests that they must fulfill It must be it should absolutely be the loon court Sorry, it should actually be um FEC yeah, I was reading the loon court in my eyes as I was talking Anyways, so yeah, super cool little dudes not a bad deal at all for a hundred ninety fun little unit Well, I've seen a number of people excited about the war scroll. I just hadn't looked at it yet So yeah, I was curious. Yeah, it's got looks interested. He has a sign of good things to come So we had a couple of facts come out ogres and slaves darkness We did let me go ahead and bring those up. We'll look at the FAQs real quick. Let's see ogres. There we go Not a lot too surprising in here, but I do think we need to shout out to our good buddy Hey, whoa twitch who got his wish He got his wish In his review of the ogre book he lamented that the stone horn beast riders and thundertuck beat thunder tusk beast riders Did not get both of the ranged weapons So that is say you didn't get like the harpoon launcher and the chain trap or the harpoon launcher and the blood vulture Even though there are two guys on that model and you literally build the kit They basically have to have One of those two things like there's not other arms in the kit okay, and He was like I don't understand that's how it's modeled and it by the way They're crappy attacks other than the blood vulture like they're completely worthless, but still It's the principle of the thing and sure enough Guess what? There we go. We've got it done. They got their two attacks All is right in the world. So Good day for the dad bod grill masters That was one of my favorite moments of last week's show, uh, sure Uh tom channeling hey woe spirit with that name. Yeah. All right, so I'm sure that means because we got that right that the Blades of darkness demon prince has gotten his talon attacks. That's what you're about to tell me, right? I it's so if only oh the other thing I should mention is that I do think it's fun that they included black powder's buccaneers Allowing them to be Clarifying that yes, they will become battle line, which is neat. That's a fun thing. So That's super cool because that's a great model Slaves to darkness Darkness all right. So we got a lot of stuff going on here Uh Okay Let's just go through these number one If I choose demon hood for my dark apotheosis i.e. I'm a hero and I become a demon prince Do I still have my allocated wounds? Nope, you just you're just a new fresh demon prince, which is cool. All right very good If my dude carrying an ensorcelled banner dies does the banner still apply? No, obviously not. Although it can be returned through like a rally or whatever Okay Now we're on to your your your love here Yeah Both the blasphemous rituals ability for the cabalist sub faction and the arcane tome universal artifact of power Have additional effects for a hero that is already a wizard If I pick the cabalist sub faction for my army, which makes all heroes They're not wizards become wizards and I give the arcane tome to a hero that is not a wizard Is that hero considered to already be a wizard for the effects of either the blasphemous rituals ability or the arcane tome artifact of power answer No to both So they just we're not going to mess with timing at all here. That's what this question said to me It was like look, we're not messing around with timing. Were they a wizard? No, they ain't a wizard then call it a day Done It's right answer sure A little while to get there with that question, but it's It is a weird one. But yeah, it's probably the right answer. Sure. I'm glad that clarified it needed clarifying Yeah Can heroes that have the eye of the gods keyword be given the corn keyword if I pick the cabalist sub faction for my army? No, stay out of here corn. You don't you don't get to be corn in the all wizard sub faction Obviously what lore breaker was was trying this shenanigan Shame shame upon you Corn frowns on such behavior. Let me tell you what that is unacceptable Uh, okay um The sleigh unworthy foes There was a change there But I don't know what the change was. Did you catch what the change was it lets you like It seems like the exact same ability I did it seems like yeah It's still plus one to wound. So whatever it was fine before it's it's fine now Betty and chat knows let us know. I don't yeah, if somebody knows exactly what the the change is Gareth says corn has lore. Uh, there's been rumors of it. I haven't played like it a long time, but that is the rumor Uh, and then finally um There's some new text on ascending to demon hood Specifically how you set that up. You don't count as slain All that sort of stuff the demon prince has the same mark of chaos keyword the hero had if any It has any enhancements that the hero had if the hero was your general the demon prince is now your general Any other results on the eye of the gods table that apply to the hero now apply to the demon prince Okay So what that means tyler Let's like I appreciate this ruling. This is a good ruling Okay But let's talk about what that means in the verse in sort of the versimilitude of the world I got yelled out for using that word too much last week and I don't care Uh A lot of good comments on last week's video my favorite comment side note of last week's video Is somebody new watching this show and getting the impression that tom and you hate each other. Oh, yeah, sure I saw that yes Yeah, which matched the impression that I had back in 2015. I'm sure I'm sure many of us have gotten that It just takes a little while Yeah, I mean I've known tom since he was like 12 years old or something. I mean, right? Yeah, uh, it's it's been a while Yeah, okay What this means In effect is let unless you get super lucky right and And you like you roll demon hood straight away Most of time you will roll a couple of other game long enhancements before you roll that one Right bonus to rend something like that. Yeah Become a wizard whatever So in the scope of the world if we zoom in all the way to the to the point of view What this means is that every demon prince that gets manufactured through eye of the gods For the most part is a superior model To the stock demon prince, right? Yeah, absolutely. It's just a demon prince with better stats More rend or also a wizard or whatever something Yeah better ward save Who are these failure demon princes that we actually add to our army? That don't have any of these extra special rules that are so underwhelming Apparently we've got it the trick is tyler You've got to do that organic free range Demon prince farming the ones you buy at the start in your list Those are like the cage Raised, you know factory farm demon princes. You don't want those those are bad Okay, you got to get that fresh organic Farm-to-table experience of manufacturing your own superior demon princes. That's how you get the good stuff Wrong my friend Like what we can get I'm not seeing my talents Edition You will not um And then the rest of this stuff, let's see here this stuff we don't care about I ignore this nor this Yep, good. Uh, the only other thing. Oh, there is one more thing we care about. Sorry. Um The Exalted hero of chaos are our perfect little boy. So there's there's three sort of things we want to talk about here The exalted hero of chaos Uh, he has to be part of a slaves the darkest army to roll in the all-you-gods table. Sure. Okay, of course Like that's what we all assumed anyways Um, the iron golems, they fixed the little loophole We pointed out of a you can't normal move run retreat or made a charge move. They don't get the bonus He can't just run around And then still have your same bonus Um, the retinue was clarified to cast warriors and cast chosen Uh, so that's good. That's what I figured that was supposed to be Uh, no, it was that way the main thing is that you're not able to Do multiple in other units retinue. Yes, correct. Sorry. Yeah Yep So sad, but that was I mean, that's the way it should be of course. It's exactly um And Uh But then they clarified a little on the on becoming a using the zeech mark for the demon friends So But yep, good stuff fine All fine all minimal stuff all just mostly clarifications really, right? So good I know some people thought we might I mean we we're not going to see any changes on the iron blasters. So, you know, they're going to want to see things shake out and I mean if some of these rumors are true where maybe Feuding is going to be curtailed or range damage in general in the upcoming season an orientation around small heroes, so Maybe the value of shooting will be going down in this upcoming season. Who knows Maybe that maybe that's impacting the the point value that you see on iron blasters right now Yeah, I mean, I I would think that would be part of some larger points Situation that will happen not since we're we're we're on the precipice of that, right? We're on the precipice of a of a larger points change just because that goes in line with ghp and everything Hence hence why we're looking back at the death of this ghp now, right? Uh, so it only makes sense that probably like well just you know Do it then I guess it's fine. We'll all put up with with you know many much iron blastering until then so it's okay All right That's the news Okay Tyler Let's talk pick a week What do you want to share with everybody you have multiples Back on point. Yeah, three picks of the week. So good friends at sag of dice Rob Eric Dale. They had a great review of the slaves darkness battle to him on how they recommend checking out and then One only iron gutsman stewart. He Top tips for getting better at a os video they released. I don't know a couple weeks ago I finally had a chance to watch it this week some really good stuff in there Okay, and then finally I was watching a little bit today tabletop titans Adrienne and zack were on a team at old town throwdown teams event Tom puts on And yeah, they were just talking about our team events for you and their experience Obviously, as you know events. I've been doing a lot of research on team events over the last week here And it was good. Yeah, just to hear the perspective. So Those three and that's it very nice for myself I just had all the boys over for a weekend and uh, so I'm gonna go ahead and give a shout out to our friends Scott and john and john and minniac and their most recent episode of trapped under plastic They're talking a lot about a lot of things Uh, as well as they're talking about some 3d printing something probably on a lot of people's minds, of course And uh, you know, where is that technology at and and they raise a lot of concerns and problems and challenges and stuff like that That I very much agree with And so I want to shout it out and tell you to go watch that as well The the boys always deliver with the the top podcast And so go check it out. Everything mentioned is linked down in the description Right now Yeah, very interesting hearing what they have to say about that Yeah, well, it's because they approach it both from like Where is the technology but also where are the shortcomings in it and stuff like that and I think that's You know, there's there's and I they they point out one of the Biggest things I think that holds it back, which is it's not like a toaster I can't just like take it out of the box plug it in and put some toast in and go You know, there's still futzing fiddling Work, you know what I mean like we've got to get to home printer actual levels here right Going through that terrain project this year That's one thing that we found out is yeah the the quality varies. Let's let's say In terms of 3d printing. Yeah, that's there's a bit of a science art whatever to In good quality at least terrain, you know, I'm less experienced with models, of course, but yeah It's interesting. Yeah All right, so hobby I'm still being bad at some point. Well, hold on. We got it. We got to officially change over here Let's talk hobby time. All right. Yeah go hobby. What are you doing? I am gonna I'm gonna have to I'm going to have to get back on this because the clock is ticking on this Ridiculous commitment that I got myself locked into See the problem with that commitment vents is it makes it hard to go ask People to work on new terrain I haven't held up my end of the bargain. That's that's a big that's a real big problem And I'm confronted with right now. So I can't just ask, you know Hey, Vince, you want to because you're just going to come back. Well, where the hell's your army? The hell's the those paint it? Yeah, so I'm dealing with that right now. It really sucks Okay, you know how you can get out from under that He's paid somebody's paint your way right out of it buddy. That's right It's it is but a brush And a cup of water away. That's it. Such a simple effective hobby we have Uh This is a quiet life Uh, so my hobby time I'll be right back. I'm gonna get some cup drops. You go right ahead, sir I will talk about uh, vincey con for while we're here Uh, so yes, I had uh, adam uncle adam and sam lens and ninjohn and miniac up here over the weekend Uh, we for our for our fourth, uh annual vincey con get together And it was a great time. We We painted a lot. Uh, we play tested did some some testing of the Uh game that adam and I are working on right now for release next year. So we got some some real good play testing in Uh, john and I played a bunch of magic as well because you know, why not? Uh, but it was just a lot a lot of hours of painting and and playing and all of that Uh, so it was a very very fun weekend got a lot done Um, did finish up this guy. He's done. I didn't I just didn't attach a shield yet Because I was giving him a once over before I attached him, but he's the one I had shown before He's done now. There's this little There's this little shield I just before I put I'm just nervous about attaching it because once I glue it on I can't take it off So I wanted to let him sit and then I was gonna like look over him and then and make sure, okay This is good Put it together, but during Uh, vincey con I got work on another golden demon project a lot Which was this homeboy right here. This is the Fomaroid crusher And this is going to be another entry for me And I got a just a lot of progress on him Uh, real happy with where he's at. He's at a point where I'm ready to Give him a varnish and then we're going to work on some metallics and that'll take a little while But overall real happy with uh with where this guy is at for the most part. So Yeah, I think this is it was a very productive hobby weekend lots of golden demon projects getting worked So good stuff can't complain And now I'm just trying to decide once I'm done with these two What am I going to do for an actual fun project because let me tell you what I am sick of working on golden demon crap Good lord. I am sick of it Uh, so I want I want fun stuff Uh, I just I'm gonna so I'm gonna try to find something fun and relaxing and give it a give it a quick easy paint Uh So there's there's where my hobby time went all all very fun stuff Okay Well tyler You ready? Talk about general's handbook Uh 2022 23 2022 six month season one Whatever this is. I don't know. I don't think anybody knows We got the pitch battles of that. There's that pitch battles. There's a pitch battles in there somewhere that you forgot Yes, of course pitch battles. Yes Uh, did scott match my painting time. Yeah for the most part. I didn't know he was doing it until Like day two, but yeah for the most part he was uh, he was he was doing pretty well He he stayed painting as long as I painted, but I took it pretty easy. So He didn't have that it wasn't that hard for him. Um All right Right off the rip. Let's just start with this. This is something I've seen said in the comments I think cinderfall said this. I think a couple of people said this. I'm gonna say this now I hate six month seasons I hate you. I do not want six month seasons Okay Clear on that point I have never been happier that we are having a six month season So that this stupid season will end That's the conundrum. We talked about this a couple of shows ago, right? Tom, you and I. Yeah, it's the conundrum And there are a lot of folks who I think are feeling the same way uh in a vacuum you like the idea of a Full year, but man so many people I know are feeling they're very ready And and that's been the case a number of seasons Oh when we've had the annual so many of us have felt so ready to switch over at that six month mark or you know Six-eight month mark. Yeah, but there's two different worlds here. Tyler. Okay Because what you're expressing there is We're tired of it because we've played these battle plans a lot and we've mastered it And we're real into it and ready for it to go right There's the other end which I've seen many people commenting on in the chat Which is I hated this from the beginning. It was a total nightmare from the jump I didn't like glacial veterans. I didn't like all this bounty hunter nonsense It didn't achieve what it wanted and it made me not want to play aos Those are two very different ends of the spectrum right Both people though are going to be served well, but by this season being relegated to the ashbin of history so Uh, I personally hope this will be the last this is what we're about to go into Will be the last six month season and then we just stop that Then we just go back to years. Let's just do that But make them good See how that would work Just make it a good Year-long thing so that the vast majority of the audience Who do not get burnout because they play a game a month All right Uh, we'll be like wow these rules are fun and enjoyable And I would like to keep playing this and I can get this knowledge in my head And then hold it there stably for a year knowing that it will be of value It seems like a good world to live in Yeah, so there's some details, of course I don't know if you want to get into it now, but in terms of what is that model exactly look like Yeah, are you saying right? Are we talking about You want to see us go back to On ghb a year That's that plus some battle scrolls That's it. So we we get 12 missions a year. That's it. Hopefully they're good Hopefully there's not just six that we're all bored to death of after six months because that's all that we play Sure, or are you talking like what yeah, what exactly are you talking about? So I don't know if you want to get into that now or later, but yeah that one generals handbook And it has 12, you know 12 battle plans in it and they're good They're good. Okay. So like the good the good is the challenging part, of course Look, we wrote like half of them are good. We're going to talk about the battle plan style We're going to go through it blow by blow here because just so everybody understands We're going to go through the original presentation review that we did and put together Okay, I've modified this very little Because I want to see how right we are unlike other shows on the internet We will check the tapes Okay, and we will show where we right or wrong on our initial takes And that will also be telling of where because like we had initial hot takes Where did they fall? Right What went wrong? literally And yeah, like there's no reason you can't generate 12 good battle plans You know how I know because most seasons have had at least six Sure, so if we stopped cutting vertically vertically and cut horizontally we'd have like 24 Oh, yeah, you know that I definitely grew with that. Yeah, we there we have quite a collection now that's out there. Yeah And yeah that you I mean there. Yeah, we had six last year that pulled up pretty well So yeah savage gains, etc, etc All right, well I'm gonna get into more overview or where we're going from here All right. Yeah, we're gonna we're gonna go we're gonna do a little overview boom So this is the original overview. I preserved this page. Exactly. I did not change it. Okay and what we had said back when this launched was This is a big set of moves for the general's handbook The gander line game is still the same. I agree with that Okay It's very driven by the narrative. Whatever. Sure. That's fine It changes some fundamentals. Boy was I under that's an understatement Okay This is a new battle pack. That's just a factual statement. So that is true And seems to want to point toward an infantry meta as opposed to last year we spent in the monster meta though That may not be how things work out again Yep And overall interesting set of rules with some very welcome quality life changes with some big question marks come along with this I think I was more positive on this originally than I than I am now Yeah, we were Okay Once I saw this all in action and really got it into my head Because I didn't realize just how out of whack things like bounty hunters were going to take us right I was not Angry enough about that at the time and there are multiple slides in here on it Talking about how big of a deal it is Sure So let's look back a little conclusion. Let's now this is a new slide right See if you see what you think about my points here tyler The season of infantry was very much not that Right was this season about infantry for anyone except knight hunt or Yeah, I guess knight hunt In the way that they clearly intend to know yeah, there are exceptions beyond knight hunt, but in general tldr no agree Bounty hunters kept many battle line units from being viable or played at all Just the existence of it by the way You know cool all said funny enough nowadays. I see most tournament winning armies not even taking bounty hunters Yeah, of course because why would you it's a waste Nobody takes gvs. So why would you take bounty hunters? Like that's exactly the cycle we predicted Right, like we talked about second order consequences that gvs are so that bounty hunters are so good They will hunt gvs to extinction And then once there's nothing left to hunt there's no point to take the thing anymore And so you go back to a one drop one drop, right? And All right And it we did see an increase. I would say I mean anecdotally It feels like we saw an increase over time of expert conquerors, which is generally what I expected Because last expert the value of expert conquerors Less immediately obvious Less equal than the value of bounty hunters We yeah, I think we did see an increase of experts over time as well in part because of what you just laid out with with bounty hunters On in very particular armies, I think that's true. Yes. Yeah, in particular. Yeah, not necessarily widespread But I was thinking like what armies managed to still do reasonably well Despite bounty hunters. So you've mentioned knight haunt They definitely stand out. I'd say beast of chaos although beast of chaos. Well, yeah, they have a fair number of four Let's go down the list. I brought up the meta watch back up. Okay. Yeah, let's take a look Let's take a look at some win rates. Okay Beast of chaos has leaned largely into the non gv related stuff Dogers for the first part of the year cockatrices Now this is now the the you know, now you're talking about berries and sundries angora related things that are not necessarily Gvs right gv's. Yeah Um daughters is the exception Right, uh, though they love one drops They're still outside and too strong And their snakes are often but not always gv's Like people you can very easily build a list where your snakes are not gv's Uh Lumineth arguably Right, even though they're they're at 53% They have a lot of almost automatic gvs. They're going to take in sentinels and Wardens, but obviously wardens have been not probably the winning choice for a while Um, and in the new book, I'm not sure anything about that changed Uh You know Going on the list, right? Who's taken a lot of gv's Maybe soul blight with a lot of zombie spam Oh, blight Yeah, so no, that's soul blight has been really impacted by bounty hunters. I think that's very fair to say so Lumineth has managed to be competitive despite bounty hunters But Yeah, like they've they've generally been fine. Maybe they've been impacted a little bit bringing them down a little bit Because of bh He's part of the recipe to help bring them down a little bit, but yeah Uh Fire slayers They're impacted by character and easily dodges it loves to go one drop Magikin easily dodges it loves to go low ish drops, right and and take flying units Big mountain Yeah We did see fewer plague bearers certainly like people I had so many people who looked at my list with plague bearer like why the hell are you taking plague bears? Which well because I I just want to take plague bears like I knew they're not necessarily the optimal choice because of bounty hunters, but Yeah, so they they definitely were impacted in that regard. We saw fewer plague bears with with nergal Yep You know stormcast maybe you saw like protectors As a as a thing Uh If you if you decided to make them Gvs, but you didn't have to Uh I think yeah, I think they were affected by bounty hunters I Roll that cali vets expert conquerors and bh I think both had an impact on stormcast expert conquerors lessening the valley of stormkeep And bounty hunters lessening the valley of stormkeep, right because stormkeep is built around redeemer units liberators vindictors Uh, vanquishers now, you know, you could potentially play in stormkeep But yeah, we saw very few Uh tournament lists running stormkeep this year and yeah Yep So definitely impacted I mean night haunt has played into it strongly because they have the only viable They had like the most viable ec expert conquerors path in the game Fireslayer certainly got hurt to some degree by this Uh, you seem to manage it better than many. I mean you still saw quite a few This with vulcite berserkers and certainly hearthgar berserkers, right? Yeah, you would see some magma spam list, but I've seen a lot. I mean just like Mike vaginos of the weekend obviously wriggle player in the east coast. He just ran a nice mixed arms Slayer's list went four one with So but yeah, I've seen a ton of fireslayers list running Gvs is the point uh Blades of corn Good night. I don't even know, you know, they're I mean obviously they're winning through Through extreme Toolboxiness and they're they're white dwarf change They can suffer a lot from this Sylvaneth Good lord Yeah, the of course Dryad right dryad and spite revenants have been off the table for the most part because of bounty hunters Yep. Oh, yeah, they were definitely packed blades of corn. We did not see a lot of bloodletters even though they're not terrible now arguably Big, you know bonds of battle, etc But stacking attacks I would guess people don't run a lot of bloodletters because of bh Sure iron jaws. It certainly kept roots at home. It didn't I didn't hurt that or didn't help whatever you want to say it I don't know if that was also mutually reinforced I guess is what I would say by the change to pigs making them just the superior choice in basically every way Uh I net deep Ken it certainly kept thralls from seeing the table when like you look at that look and you go Wow thralls have an incredible amount of power but Yeah, yeah, man, and you can get those guys back Um, readily right you can get like six back readily With a soul render or maybe life swarm on top So, yeah, even despite the replenishing it really kept them kept that down from list Yep Uh, I mean bone splitters bone reapers scaven cities All four often have a lot of uh, gvs as like units that they were relying on to sort of do work right Excuse me and all four suffered To some degree and then the rest is like he knights don't even want to talk about it like whatever It's trash book. So it's not like we're down in the territory of like sure They suffered some from from gv, but they suffer far worse from having a trash book, right? So Yeah, we saw blitzbar barter spam after the point drops and mostly that was it a little bit of some of the other mortal units the nice looking mortal units But yeah, mostly blitzbar barter spam. So yeah going through that list it's fair to say that The majority of armies that could be meaningfully impacted by bounty hunters were meaningfully impacted by bounty hunters I think there are some exceptions to that rule Yeah, that I mean, yeah, I was just curious to go through it Yeah, I mean I we're going to do a little even deeper dive here in a minute. Okay I think the take home Is the rules overall were very complex and led to a lot of frustration. Like that's simply it even understanding what gvs are This is a gv. This is not a gv Like I have a good buddy who plays in our group, but he doesn't play that often He comes over once every couple months and gets a game in okay When he came over to play a game one time, it's just he and I And he's like I was in the car on the way over here and I had a panic attack Because I couldn't remember what Galatian veterans and bounty hunters and all this stupid crap was and I said, you know what? Don't worry. We're just not going to use any of that And he was like, oh, thank god. Okay. Let's have fun then We had a fun game Where's that starter battle pack? okay, so Yeah, we forgot to mention pink ores pink ores definitely impact. I mean Oh, certainly kept off the table 100 by by bounty hunters Yes, because it they have a ton of wounds that just evaporate under under bounty hunters And the important part is it doesn't actually matter how many bounty hunters are really out there It's the threat of the thing Right You get a bad draw too bad draws all of a sudden. But that's your weekend You're you know, you're not you're not you're not 4 1 and 5 0 and As they blow through you Right. Yeah, Sean. I mean bounty hunters was keeping pinks in check And maybe that's an example of where it could be, you know, it's it's useful I mean, I've played against pinks with Obviously the miners want to hit and they're five up board if you can get that five and they're not they're They're a nightmare when they've got a five up board on top of what else they're doing So, yeah, we'll we'll see how much we swing in the other direction With this new season. We don't really know what it's going to look like obviously, but Hopefully we're going to be able to find a bit of a middle ground here and not go too insane on You wanted horde meta. All right. Here's horde meta and it's just insanity Absolutely, okay This is high level now. Now what we're going to do tyler All right, let's again now we're going to actually go back and we're going to expose our our flaws our weaknesses And uh, we're going to talk about where we were right and where we were wrong and specifically what was wrong Right, like where is the problem line? We're going to go through the old prezzo and actually break this stuff out Yeah, um, we'll have to talk more about this whole six month thing. I don't know. We we have talked a lot about this right over many shows and It requires I guess your basic point is You think that it's not too much to ask Have an annual season Essentially everything is good You have not six missions, but we have 12 missions but historically though, you're wrong because we have Dude, we've pretty much always had like Six to seven good missions I think this one is actually we can get it later, but I think this one is higher Um, personally, I find this one to be a higher batting average than most of them historically So it's just it hasn't been reality. We we haven't lived in that world where we've had 12 even remotely 12 commissions So and and there's always been problems when it's come to the the annual season pack that we've gotten Yes, but anyway, right look Here's what I'll say The answer to this is really simple as to why it should be a year Tyler. Are you ready? Because you were the outlier for wanting anything more Okay, well and by outlier, I mean you are a part of a group That I will certainly partially count myself in as well Of people who play this game a lot and go to multiple tournaments a year right but 90 plus of the fan base If they played a game a month, that's a great month And that pace of change is just way too high Especially if we're going to carry anything close to the amount of rules that are in these battle packs now Right In my mind, I hear that I hear an amazing argument for a casual sandbook as opposed to Trying to make the general sandbook apply to everybody Apply to like match play writ large. Yeah, I mean, I wonder if it's a different product. We're talking about here A variable could be Like I would love a per as we've discussed before I would love a perma green Simple battle pack that just allows you to play Right and has some great stuff in it and that would be fine forever But The percentage of your audience you're trying to sell that to is so small Right. I I'm not sure it's worth it or you or if I was them I would care Like competitive players will be mostly fine Right if if you can do 12 good missions that'll last you a year right now If you had a tournament pack that came out at the six month mark specifically for to's And and tournament organizers that introduced another six new battle packs or sorry six new battle plans. I apologize great Right fine. I don't think anybody's against that And right so you can cater to that audience in a relatively efficient way put it out free Right along with the points updates or something like that And Yeah, which obviously I'm a fan of that because that's what I worked on with a bunch of other people last year this year Right, like that's why we did that we and the battle plans is the thing I mean As long as the other stuff the realm rules mad realm magic realm fan it blah blah blah as long as that's decent And you can make that work for a year Disney Potentially some more battle plans that's the main thing. Yeah, I mean there are issues with all of that but We could discuss but you know, yeah for the most part It's Like you have to serve the actual audience the game needs to be built for the vast majority of users first And these six month rules heavy Quickly rotating battle packs just aren't they just aren't Like you are not this if this is the only thing on offer This is not aligned to the user's needs period Martin makes a good point Like as I was saying that that this idea of like to Like a casual sandbook and a general sandbook, please don't partition the match play rules I don't want an elitist player pack and a general public player pack. Have you write rules for factions accounting for both? And there's yeah that there's some I don't know that that's that much of a problem honestly Um, but like I said, it doesn't have to be a whole pack at the same time. There's lots of different ways you could split it Right, it could be as easy as the the thing tournament players churn through is is battle plans Right. Yeah, you could have a mid season battle plan pack that gets put out as a pdf or in white dwarven And also published out to the website or whatever Okay, and that would be fine Like then the tournament players get what they want, which is just new battle plans Right You don't need you don't need to upend the rules to keep the tournament players happy every six months That's already happening through new books and the meta shifting and them responding to that and You know points balances like tournament players are fine They care deeply about already that stuff and and the quarterly changes of like points balancing and things like that That should absolutely continue Yeah, I'm on board with that. Yeah, that that's helpful. I like that perspective. Okay Um Yeah, I'm also curious in general. Yeah, just More we'll get into this but just hearing I'm doing what I do I always you know keep going on tangents with you apologize But I don't really I mean other than a few things we mentioned I don't feel like I have a good modeling on why it's seen that a lot of people did this like This general sandbook and while It kind of feels like both like we lost a lot of players and we gained a lot of players I don't I don't know what that but it seems like the game generally is going to be a pretty good place It's still pretty popular blah blah blah. They're still getting good sales Even though we had a year which we generally expected that was going to be a transition year with mostly battle tombs Not a lot of new models I think we'll get more new models next year with seraphon and don bring her crusades and etc maybe so But yeah, why I mean is it just is it the bounty hunters if we talk about the bounty hunters thing? Okay, that's a thing But I just I don't feel like I have a good modeling on why so many people have Stopped playing I mean we kind of wrap this around this notion of too much complexity This edition has certainly been I think a big reason for many people But anyway, that's just one thought that's been going through my head in terms of this discussion I think we're going to see exactly what it is. I mean, let's get into it boom special rules Friendly battle line units that have a wounds characteristic of four or less and do not have mounts gain the galatian veterans keyword okay Let's reconstruct that tyler Do you remember your intro to logic philosophy 150 And intro to symbolic logic philosophy 250. Did you take a look at these classes? Okay, I Yeah Okay, are you familiar with this sort of a thing Let's reconstruct that as a logical As a logical statement. Okay So a good old if then statement, right? So if unit Okay is x Or let's call it b is b battle line and w less than equal four and Uh not M mount right then Galatian veteran else not right okay So there are Three characteristics you have to hold in your head to be able to properly identify these things now For those of us who are playing regularly and thinking about this all the time We read it a couple times. We internalized it. We moved on with our lives. It was part of our dna Okay If you're coming to this casually That is such a cluster of rules to remember Right off the rip why don't people like this season? Because the first sentence they read is insane Like What units are that in the game is a hard thing if you're a casual player to even like conceptualize the universe of what we're talking about there and Many times on this show I have in quick conversation Said something was a gv when it shouldn't have been because it was like battle line if And so it could have dodged it or it had a mount and I forgot about that exception or something, right? And I play these rules all the time like once a week And yet it still doesn't easily roll off the tongue like so like right away. We're just we're just in a bad place Because that's not a logical Expression the problem is The game lacks a keyword for this Right like if we were dealing with a game Where Any units that sort of in the background Fit this characteristics Or something they had a keyword stapled on their worst rule And it said infantry Like like heroes say hero Right and this rule was just infantry units are Galatian veterans And Totally different experience Even though it amounts to almost the same thing, right? Yeah, I see what you're laying down Yeah Is it's so hard to look at this stuff when you've been immersed in this Like just trying to try to think about through the eyes of yeah, new people when you've been immersed in it for seven years Uh Ben Staffordson says, uh I love all these quotes by the way Kuhl, sorry Kuhl says Uh casual players WTF is a Galatian veterans keyword Ben Staffordson. I see nothing wrong with that rule, Vince I read it while considering getting into sigmar and then just gravitated to stone horns and mournfang that way I can ignore all of this nonsense Sure, yeah Uh So To me This is where we went. This is like we went wrong off the rip Right It's just it's too clever by half We were lacking a keyword in the game And we tried to like Frankenstein it together because that's what we're trying to get at here, right? We're trying to sneak our way into having like an infantry keyword Yeah, it's yeah By the way, Hades, I agree with you Okay, Hades said asking for more keywords to slippery slope Because then you just end up with more keywords than rules in the worst cruel and I don't disagree with that Down that road does end madness if you're not careful. So you got to be real careful with this, right? But it is strange that they demarcated a word for the For characters like hero and didn't demarcate those kinds of things for and like war machines Right like war machine has its own keyword. Monster has its own keyword Right like in most places they exist But then we just we kind of missed one when we were creating the keywords Right it comes up when you're trying to refer to the game casually as well, you know, like you Units technically applies to hero units applies to everything everything. Yeah, but you know, we don't often think intuitively as As a hero being a unit Think of a troop or an infantry as being a unit. Yeah, well, I guess we do a unit icons troops Unit that is not leader artillery or behemoth in terms of core battalions. So, you know commander sub commander troops artillery monster Sure, but that's not that's not on the keyword. That's an army construction. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. So now that's a good point Okay, uh Oh, that's right. Caleb said frankenware Franken word is the doctor you're thinking of franken words battle pack. You're exactly right. I apologize. Good. Thank you for the correction um So it's just a strange thing to be mixed that we tried to like sneak our way We tried to backdoor into it and it just it doesn't read well and it's hard for people to keep their head around Like I know it's not actually that complicated Okay, as a point of fact, I we're not talking about rocket science here But if this game isn't something you super are invested in mentally You know, it's a lot Uh, so there we go. All right The proving grounds Okay, tyler. What do you think of proving grounds? I'm I'm gonna leave. I'm gonna throw this over to you How about I mean, I'm I'm the target audience. So I absolutely love it Like I think it is Tell me about why you liked it. Yeah, I really enjoyed seismic shift Last year and I like this one as much if not more it Got to the point where there were it there were games where You know, you're always trying to think a turn or two ahead, right? And okay, so you look at Six objectives. I'm won't back down and you're thinking about well if this if this if this You I'd have a game plan of right. I want to make this proving ground. I want to go second and round two Then play for the maybe that double and round three And you're thinking ahead about where you want the proving ground to be at a particular time Keep talking tyler in the chat Please put if you feel proving ground was impactful to your games or if you tended to forget proving ground Everybody just throw that in the chat for me. Okay. Well, that's keep going. Yeah It's definitely problem number one for a lot of people. They they forgot about it Uh, it's it was it it became it was something that Got better at I saw a lot of other players get better at incorporating into their strategy Um with a game or or they're in game in game decisions in general So, yeah in a in a word. I'm a big fan of it from the standpoint of the kind of player, you know as a competitive tournament player Okay, it's very dynamic. It's interesting. It it has an impact on Both strategy and tactics of a game Okay, okay. I'm just I'm just watching Uh Clearly forgot never used to once Both impactful and forgotten in the garbage Okay Gareth also, please list your idc ranking for correlation purposes Yes, we're doing a very scientific study here. No, no doubt gareth. We can use this I thought that was probably directed at me. Yeah, gareth. I got to two. I think I got to three tournaments this year Anyway, don't don't need to have an ego moment here vents. I'm good. I'm good. That's very funny All right, here's my take on proving grounds. Okay It was a cute attempt to to incentive it like what we're always playing with Is incentivizing going second in the round Right, that's that's always the the thing we're playing around with We've had lots of mechanics play around with that over time yeah and The fact that most people who responded in this very non-scientific survey that we put up to our audience, right? Said they forgot It does not surprise me It was a very forgettable thing Do you know how much I thought about the proving ground in general When I played this game even in tournaments Not a whole lot Zero it was zero percent impactful to my decisions Because the game board state decided everything right like i'm playing the game board state and sure if there was a chance And it aligned with my general strategy like I often give the turn away and don't take the double because unless I think I can Just win outright that turn right? and and And so it doesn't matter like if I think I can win outright you can pick anything for the proving ground you want you're dead this round Okay, like I'm going to win If I don't then neat picking the proving ground is just like maybe a bonus I mean, I was playing armies tyler with basically no Galatian veterans all season Yeah So all it would ever be is me picking something that I thought maybe it might make the enemy a little bit harder for them To get a hold of with whatever unit happened to me near it if it wasn't a gv Which it never was because my opponents were also not playing gvs that was it What and that was one of the reasons I Did find that it mattered and and many of my games So one thing on the margins that I found matter this season I think we had Higher percentage than ever of close games closer games on the scoreboard, right? Sure This that's the structure of it has led to this season Yeah, resulting in that compared to the past seven years because of that Something like hold more Had a sizable impact in my mind On because it's one of the margin the margin place. So if you can yeah proving ground in a lot of my games And because somebody didn't have a gv. I was able to dictate proving ground to deny them hold more and potentially hold two so yeah, I mean it's Could have been a lot more impactful. I think that's where to say proven grounds But I did find it very meaningful and increasingly meaningful as I got better at it and I saw the people getting better at it Yeah I'll be honest. I mean look hey, you did go 5-0 at nashgon and I only went for one So and I thought about this zero percent and you thought about this apparently a lot So maybe maybe this is where I went wrong But my general feeling okay is Who cares it just it just wasn't impactful enough to the game to be worth remembering It's not the most forgettable thing or the worst thing in here But it's clearly quite forgettable and the game still plays Like it's so outside the loop because it's such an like it's nowhere near the primary loop or your primary concerns when you're playing right And it's It's so like It's so on the The the the bubble of things I would reasonably care about in the normal course of my games Like what's my target priority? What do I need to stop? What plan are they trying to do? What battle tactic of theirs? Can I can I you know potentially Uh counter What is going to be my thing? I need to be losing or or you know throwing out his bait or sacrificing for the next turn's play That's all stuff that matters. That's in the primary loop. That's how well that's what I'm thinking about Right How much force do I need to apply to get that that particular objective under my control? right That's all fair. How would you Compare this to seismic shift last year. Uh, just a reminder everybody seismic shit was and the third bout around Generally speaking in the third bout around whomever Going second to pick A objective to burn But you could not burn what we at the time had called I think primary objectives or yeah, sure Something like there's some objectives prime objectives. That's what that's what they were called. But yeah, how do you? How do you think it compared to that? Did you find a seismic shift less impactful more impactful about the same? I think I found it Less impactful, which is probably a good thing seismic shift was Often a seismic shift it certainly depended on the particulars of the battle plan Like in some battle plans from last season it was straight up game winning if you could Yeah, like yeah marking territory was Sure because of that. Yeah um so You know, but I still don't think we have this like I got an idea Let's just not do this anymore Right, do we don't need this there's already lots of other incentives around that stuff Between because of like the command points and the general structure and stuff like that Let's let's just not do this anymore Let's just not you could have this You could safely remove it. Yeah Yeah If we were if we were trimming fat We'd just get rid of this Right. Yeah, I think that's fair Okay, cool. Kyle. Did you make proving ground central to your overall strategy? Or was it a mod added to it in the latter to one degree? Yeah, it wasn't central. It was more on the checklist It was more Tyler over analyzing every element of his game And so he because he is a natural over analyzer of every single element of everything This was also part of it's this is part of everything so hence it needed to be analyzed I'll do Okay I'm here to help. I I felt like cutting to the the quick on that one cutting to the chase. Yeah All right bonds of battle. I added a little yellow star here for you get a gold star. You're the good one This was the good one. This is what everybody liked Right. This was the good rule. Now it relied on knowing what the heck of Galatian veteran was Okay Whereas again, if this was just if we had this infantry keyword and it just said infantry gets to fight in a not stupid way Right, everybody would be like, hey Here we go, you know, let's just keep this right so This is overwhelmingly about yeah overwhelmingly positive Uh Or a few units that really got a lot of value out of this necropolis stalkers in particular played against them a lot recently and Two units of nine necropolis stalkers absolutely love bonds of battle With all the other stuff going on in this game right now. So yeah, but in general, it's it's fantastic And we'd love to see this become built into the core of the game. Yep. This should just be I hope this is just a play test for 4.0. So 2024 folks By the way, sickness had maybe the the most clever burn on you. I have ever seen in my entire life I want you to read that and then reverse engineer what he just said And that's maybe my favorite funniest subtle joke ever left by a commenter on this channel So the too many characters I'm gonna wait for this for the penny to drop on this one It's flying over my at the moment Okay, the word I said was you over analyze everything now perform the math that he instructed you to perform While I switch the page Oh, okay. Okay. Yep. You wear this now. That's pretty good. I'm waiting out. There we go That's pretty funny. Who are the gvs? This was our list originally tyler. Here we go We're gonna look at this list here, but we're gonna talk about what of these units Actually saw play in lists, right and you didn't feel bad for taking Okay Blood clot plots What does that mean for two-inch weapons though, you mean if bonds of battles are out I mean, it means they're less valuable in some cases Okay, cool Like fine, great But if it makes the game that much faster, I'm not worried about a few units who have two-inch weapons losing some value Knock them downs a few points and let's call it a day Like it's fine. They'll still get to fight well too more people will play faster and fight better and more units will be viable thumbs up You know I like We're not taking anything away from them. They're still they still get good. They still do the good thing so good Okay Uh Let's so here's this list tyler. Is there anybody on this list Who saw regular? Competitive play Let's name. I will name a few That we could discuss Blikings Not really they got overshadowed by blight lords, but maybe some they were around Right. Yeah, okay gutter runners and gutter runners and night runners certainly And plague sensor bearers, although they were often not battle line Right because you don't have to make them battle line Okay Soft play what's that? Chowns all play and blades of corn. You'd often see flesh hounds The battle sure yep doggies. I'll give you the doggies. Yeah, sure Uh, I mean certainly with night haunts All of their a lot of that stuff's on that list like blight guys revenants once their book came out because they became really good Chain rats because they were great expert conquerors, but again knight hunter the exceptions Right a lot of the units in here that that read is them like almost everything on their list showed up Yeah, definitely. Yeah Uh, what else troll saw some play. Yeah troll list sure troll list Especially squick heard saw some play just saw Trenton alley run two by 36 squick heard over the weekends Going for one. I think Oh What else Most of the things on this list were impacted by bounty hunters. Yeah, right overwhelming amount Certainly there are some on here that saw some play either because their army could afford it or or whatever, right? And and yes, exactly. I mean knight haunt just turned off bounty hunters with a character Yeah, I mean knight haunt not only could run ec well because they could refill but they had the best anti Uh bounty hunter tech, right? They never what's bonus damage precious never heard of it, right? No, no you're doing you're doing one son Okay Over here's the order list by the way that was not on here Um Boy, oh boy do all those cities of sigmar units basically not show up anywhere. That is just as a rough world To realize this is the it's been like three hours putting this together Uh when the book came out and just realized what this list was. Yeah, very cool. Good to see it getting used Uh, you did a great job with it for all these units that nobody uses Nobody use Yeah, the whole engine of this right Certainly saw a scar to guard the big slon, you know, but again not as fighters as wounds For the slon It's a hilarious point man because the whole point of putting this together like the my original thought behind it was like Oh, let's help show everybody. What are the units that are going to see more play this year? Let's make it easy That's when in fact you gave them a map of what not to use right, uh, yeah Tree revs obviously being another one on this because because they can stay completely out of the battle and they can You know be put in expert conquerors and who cares like two by five tree revs They just pop around and count as 15 and you know great. They're the best they were we had called them as the best gv in the game And and I absolutely stand by that, right? Um We talked about if you can control whether or not a unit is battle line Uh You know will be a powerful thing when you were right lots people will run those Potentially gv units as non gv as non battle line. They'll dodge battle line just to get around it right or have Um If they if it didn't cost them too much Like proving ground seems to say as I said here, they were hoping people would take lots of infantry My original take was it seems like it benefits monstrous infantry more and heavy infantry I don't think that turned out to be true. I think I was very wrong there right Because those guys just ended up not being played very much Brutes you know Cryptor Zangora these kinds of things just didn't really see as much play Because in the end they overpaid For what they were in their wound to point ratio and just ended up losing out to bounty hunters So I was I was definitely wrong on that it turns out all things on that gv list weren't actually very playable unless there was some specific use case that allowed them to remain Playable, you know protectors because they could either be gv or not But even if they were they had like outrageous saves, you know, it can be like two up six up pretty easy You know that kind of likely reasonable. Yeah, yeah perfectly perfectly balanced. Yeah Yeah Interesting Yeah, so here's the fun thing. So here's the page Now obviously when you look at this page your eyes are going to immediately draw over to the core battalions Where it says expert conquerors and bounty hunters The two things that we've basically come to hate Well at least bounty hunters but Tyler can I remind you there are two other rules on this page? Gaze of murder and overwhelming assault Yeah Uh The realm spell is fine. That was our our original read. I might have been giving it too much credit by saying it's fine I think I cast it twice This year So real winner there. Well, of course, dude. It was a casualty of bounty hunters writ large Sure, bounty hunters cause there to be less hordes on the table. Therefore That spell is going to be less relevant Sure, maybe it should have been 18 inches to begin with It's I mean 12 inches is such a short range It's such a short range. It should have been 18 if they wanted to actually be useful I don't think they understand that 12 inch Spells are almost always useless when they're meant to target enemy unit Like do they understand that that we don't just sit around with casters? Squishy casters often being 12 inches away from the enemies. It's like I don't But what are you doing here guys 18 inches is a reasonable distance where you can actually maybe cast something Okay, uh, we did eventually get that FAQ so that's good Uh, and as I said here the realm command is near useless or so very exceedingly rarely useful No one will remember it Boom nailed it tyler. Sure in what percentage of games if you had to guess I did was the realm command used I mean Less than 1% it never I never used it. I didn't use it once this year. I don't think nope I have hundreds of games if it was used in 0.00001 Percent of games I would be shocked Okay, six zeros on that by the way, that's what I'm talking about Oh Which means that all it would have had to be used on is like 20 games Period Complete nonsense that text complete nonsense now the advantage is here's the funny thing Okay, I mean we were right. It was a dud But here's the funny thing about it Who cares When they write rules that are that obviously bad and stupid That even a normal player will look at that and go I have no idea what this is or how I would use it. They just it passes through their brain It is water off a duck's back right And it's not like it's not deleterious in any way the actual structure of bounty hunters And like actively bad things are much worse than passively bad things is what I'm saying If that makes sense, which sounds obvious when I stated like that, right But that's all there is So whatever Run command last year was also fairly Yeah, it had a little bit impact. The last year's was I think you couldn't make a monster Fight at the top racket of its damage table. Fair old roar. I still gotta lose a little bit. Yeah, but it wasn't massive, but yeah But no, yeah, this this is probably the least use of anything out of maybe any season since we started doing these realm rules Thanks. Yeah, I got a suggestion ready. Here's another one cut that crap. It doesn't need to be there Like it's not no rumps man. No no rumps for magic You can you can I keep the realm spell or not, but just make it something interesting Okay, I don't mind a third generic spell that everybody has access to That's fine. There's a lot of casters that uh that end up It'd be nice if there was another spell that they had in the clip to use, right But just like make it a fun easy spell it should be the realm spell should be a a mystic shield or You know arcane bolt in fact simpler than arcane bolt spell Like the realm spell should be You know in simplest form Something on the complexity level of picky, you know within 18 inches Roll it roll a die, you know roll your cast roll cv6 D3 mortal wounds. That's the level of complexity we should be at for the realm spell Okay right I like the tent of the realm sphere magic spell gaze of gur it's just Obviously the intended reality versus actual reality was a complete miss Sure, if it had not been a complete miss, I think it would have been fine. It would have been used quite a bit No, I agree. That's why I'm saying like I don't mind the realm spell. I like I said, I think I think the spell is a cool enough thing just Just make it like not Insane or or useless or any of those sorts of things. That's all that's all You know, I don't think that's I don't think that's really that hard Right It shouldn't be that strange personal take so You know, there we go By the way, I'm not saying they have to be the damage spell. Please don't misunderstand me. I'm not saying just print a new damage spell over here I'm saying that's the sort of general level of complexity. I want on the thing, right? Uh, it could be like picky unit. They get plus one to run in charge. That would be a cool simple buff It could be picky unit. They get plus one to wound. That's a cool buff It could be picky unit. Sixes are double taps. It could be picky unit Uh Sixes to hit have to be re-rolled or or something. I tend to hate re-rolls on sixes But like I could list 20 spells that are all at that level of complexity offense defense utility Right damage and they would all be fine They would all be fine You know So and get used Because good buffs and offense and defense of stuff gets used give it a simple hdn range reasonable cast it'll get used core battalions This is where we talked about that their bonuses are massive and I had said originally This is the death of the one drop and for a while it was Right for a while. We saw the one drop like precipitously drop in usage and then slowly As all of the fertile hunting grounds of of galatian veterans faded away And the bounty hunters had no one else to hunt the one drop It rose again right Yeah, I mean, I think the core battalions they did or right in spirit meaning that they Have to have a certain level of impact with these core battalions to push against that overwhelmingly powerful pool of the one drop Because they've not done anything about battle wretch Until they right until we get fourth edition. We're just saddled with battle regimen apparently apparently. Yeah Oh, we had hunters in the heartlands. That was the sufficiently strong push against the pool of the one drop last season The one I can't remember what it does. It hardly ever got played. It was meaningless So kind of a good example of the yin and yang or the yeah that idea Sure, it just they they obviously Fell short in the execution of bounty hunters A lot of people in the community have talked about half dozen different ways. You could have done it differently That would have made it work The way that they chose to do it was terrible execution Yep Was the primary reason they didn't get the intended reality they were hoping for with this entire season The apparent intended reality. Yeah, so But yeah, but these things have to be impactful, right? Obviously sure Or you're just gonna have a lot of one drops Which is fine. I'm okay with it. I just think that clearly this one was too far, right? And you know, I talked here about how You know, everyone talks about I mean originally everybody was like, oh, this is gonna make this troop great. This troop great Right This troop's great And I I even then I said my bad troop will be great But someone else's better troop will be even better and that was true Uh, like a rising tide means your bad unit is still bad And we did see some units benefit a lot more from this stuff Right So Uh Okay Expert conquers I mean right here we listed knight haunt. We listed tree revs, you know I feel like we we we I feel like we properly nailed this Right, this was the value of expert conquers. Yes And by the way, I don't think ec was necessarily a outside like outside the pale of what we could see with these and be fine with Yeah, yeah Yes, if you had had A lot of thoughts on expert conquers. I mean sure my original take my original take on expert conquers is that At least I think this is my original take this long time ago I thought it was going to be sneaky amazing like Would become more apparent over time the incredible value of expert conquers The first thought behind that was This is a tighter scoring system than we've ever had in the game Before small margins can make a huge impact, particularly when you're at tournaments And you get What's one of those margins we've mentioned hold more As one of those keys expert conquers is amazing at helping you Obviously on objective scoring particularly when it comes to hold more so playing nergal in particular this year, which was Good in itself for a lot of reasons, but not right, you know, my arms that I ran you weren't playing light lord spam or anything Yeah, which More power to those who were just that's not interesting personally like Your 10 play bear 2 by 10 play bears five black kings and expert conquers Were so impactful in almost every game that I played over two dozen games with nergal this year And though a lot of you would just think well those play bears are going to die They had a roll the kind of a couple of different roles one. I don't care if they die. Anyway, I won't go to the whole thing with it but Long way of saying experts. Yeah, I thought was amazing and it grew in its attractiveness over time especially As bounty hunters decreased in the meta Sure. Yeah, my general feeling with with expert conquers was it was super strong Maybe in some cases a little too strong like I think we could have had it count as two per model or something like that or or or more up to a max or something like that So we didn't get those truly outrageous numbers. I think we were lucky bounty hunters were so bad Otherwise, it could have led to some really insane sort of mathematical nonsense happening Like we never really saw this unleashed Right Because it like our expectation Well an easy expectation So play was doing Pretty well at the time and we were seeing zombie spam and you'd think oh god Now we're going to see 180 zombies everywhere or 180 count as zombies all over the place and obviously we didn't get that So so I got massively impacted by bounty hunters, which yeah, I mean I think part of what kept expert conquers in check was that bounty hunters was so bad effectively, right? We could have had a really I don't disagree with chase who says it would have been a horde meta Without it like if bounty hunters had been I don't know plus one to wound or Sixes to hit or double taps or something like that, right some other mildly inoffensive buff Right Against gvs Then we very well might have had the horde meta And we very well might have had these massive battles of like, okay, I count as 120 on this This objective and you count as 110 Sure, right Right, which is why I mean we lived in yeah Like we haven't I mean in past shows we talked about what we think would have been better directions to go with bounty hunters To keep it a little bit more in check and find but all this is to say like this stuff doesn't strike me as easy Like magically find that middle ground between trying to execute Expert conquerors and bounty hunters at least in terms of what they decided to go with because yeah, you could easily tip over One way or another and we tipped over one way, but we didn't the other way, but obviously yeah, it would have been very easy I think That was a that was a concern many people had including myself Sure, and by the way, I don't think that concern was misfounded because I think it would we could have easily went that direction right Oh, yeah, I don't know Yeah Bounty I don't know if we need to yeah talk talk about what we think would have been a better Approach to bounty hunters, but again, I mean we've already talked about that in the past. There's there's a lot of ways you could cut it That would have been fine Probably would don't we didn't live in any of those Yeah, and probably still Would have kept definitely would have kept I think definitely would have kept expert conquerors and check because of the directions that you would other directions you would go in with bounty hunters You would still have it be tethered in some way to galley vets That might Probably the easiest answer is to just have it be galley vet on galley vet violence Sure, a bounty hunter has to be galley vets, right an expert conquerors required galley vets and call and that that seems like a pretty clean Set up Anyway, uh You know like what we said here originally was exactly correct, right? The very powerful units that can slot into this but are not themselves gv and don't risk being taken down by other bounty hunters Are going to be your most potent choices Blightlords fulminators curnoth, you know, I list all the things here, right and and yep Yep You know Yep Like there it was Just that easy Mr. Pickles said would this have killed sons of behemoth you mean if the if ec had ruled the day Would that have made sons just have like a trash wind percentage? Um Very likely yeah in a horde meta where everybody's where every unit of 20 is counting a 60 And suddenly my ability to count as 20 doesn't really matter any Um, very very likely. Um, it would have it would have crashed their win rate into the floor. Yeah, sure Um, if it was gv versus gv, at least yeah, it would have made people like Have a fight with the the units that theoretically we were wanting to fight With in this season. That's the one advantage And absolutely brought it made. I mean it would he said gv bounty hunters would also encourage horde meta 100 percent But that's the entire obviously Intended reality that were going that seemed to be the purpose of what they wanted. Yeah, exactly I mean for better or worse. It's what they wanted. We could we would be having a totally different discussion of like Was hashtag what is going on upstairs? What is going on? We can just hear dogs barking. Okay dogs come crazy. Yeah at any rate I mean, we would be having a different discussion about was the horde meta a good or bad idea, right? But but but in fact there were no hordes. They were we were horde less all right grand strats Let's talk about these guys tyler. What grand strat did you take? The one that 70 percent of Nash contact was the one tournament I got to That my friend Travis and I we calculated this in the car ride That take what's theirs of course take what's theirs It was take what's theirs followed by no place for the week Which I think was you had to kill all battle line Yeah, no no battle line us from your opponent starting army on the battlefield. Yeah Then it was like a mix of a show of dominance the whole you can have a unit in the middle of the battlefield Out as being within all four quarters Then there was one more that was Uh defend what's ours keep all enemy units out of your territory playing a cast army. Sure castle army. Yeah Yep Take I mean, but it was take what's theirs I would like when I was creating army lists I would fill in take what's theirs without before as the first thing and then Only if I thought they my last check was do I think I could actually accomplish that And and then I maybe I would change it right um But like that was simply the default and Yeah, show of dominance if you're something army good point on yeah, sure All right battle tactics. Let's talk about these. So here's here's the battle tactics I had well real quickly did yeah, so obviously grand strats was a miss in terms of Balance or parody of between options. Yeah, sure. Yeah What where are you with grand strategies as a concept as a whole I like grand strategies as a concept even though I wish all scoring was kept tighter Like I wish most of the scoring was hold one hold two hold more battle tactic And that's basically it. Maybe there was one additional vp up Optionally once per round maybe in some In some battle plans Because then I think grand strats would matter more Right Okay And are you more partial to Right, obviously, I know you can't stand book battle tactics But are you more partial to the idea of grand strategy? Book grand strategies And you I don't personally care about book grand strategies. They're the thing I find tolerable Okay, all right. I'm just curious. Yeah I like they're they're Let's be honest even with a tighter season Tyler. What percentage of games were decided by grand strats Yeah, not a whole lot I But personally it happens early. It happened like I wish I would have kept track the number of times like I would say Happened more than I would have expected when we did the original show. Sure Yeah, and I think that's a testament to like the because there were legitimately like six good battle plans here right and You know, I think that still what ended up happening most of the time is games were decided without grand strats I don't know where I'd place the percentage if you gave me like a gut instinct It's probably still less than five like between three and five percent of games would have been decided by the grand strap Maybe at the high end like I'm being pretty pretty presumptive there So most of the time it doesn't matter what that means is that like you could go the whole tournament leave your grand strap blank and still win Right I mean theoretically, of course lots of tournaments give points for completing your grand strats and blah, blah, blah, blah You could still five. Oh is what I mean Yeah and you know the but the the So so grand strat I just generally find less offensive. It's less for all the reasons we've talked about in previous shows The battle tactics here. I was originally pretty high on like I said, these are much harder to accomplish, which is good Boy, I don't think that was true. I think for the most part these were very accomplishable Or at least, you know Probably four of them were very accomplishable Uh The only one battle tactic had a bonus point, which is good that remained good um the Battle tactics have few simple auto wins Uh, nope. There's still many auto wins here. I was totally wrong about that Uh, and I stand behind army's grand strats and battle tactics should be banned from tournament packs Uh, so there you go. Take that. I stick to that six months later I mean I stand behind the fact that they weren't tuned for this new world where they are harder And by the way, I think that's only going to continue Yeah, having So a lot of thoughts on this First off. Yeah, this whole grand strategies battle tactics from the books Having played a lot of slaves of darkness lately Slaves have multiple battle tactics that are quite straightforward to achieve They've got two in particular and two is basically the magic number in this current environment to essentially go five and five Almost every game with slaves of darkness as far as I can tell in my experience so far over the last month, right? Because you've got quite a few as you said auto sort of sort of autos in the original list and Getting two from your book then removes your need to go out to the ones that might be a little more challenging Though in the case slaves like low power where you got it some way to get it rolling at the god's table So we talked about that in our review how that works But generally that's pretty straightforward to do unless maybe you're going up against something that can like auto bind you Auto unbind you like techless or something number two is the I can't remember what it's called, but you got to run three a charge with three units in a turn So that army wants to charge all the sequel that's pretty straightforward and now you're left with like against the odds Arched enemy lines. That's right Like at that point you're just five out of five in most games. Absolutely. Or uh, yeah, or as playing I Friendlier Stormcast army that did better than expected this year With thunder buddies bastion and prime and 10 protectors 10 judicators two by five lip like that army House two has more challenge getting five out of five. It's like i'm going to have to get an eye for an eye I'm going to have to get a head-to-head where the judicator is going to have to kill A glade I got it or have to get any moment of killing it hold more right actually have to do something I at least anecdotally I felt that With those two So yeah, it's it's a real problem You have battle tones that can readily get two out of the five and then they can just pretty easily auto five and five five out of five Yeah, but I mean The thing I will say with this okay is I absolutely Felt originally like these were tougher and I was totally wrong And that what I ended up finding was that If you used your book battle tactics, it was a simple five of five pickup without issue for almost any book Absolutely If you didn't yeah, you could still easily do three or four And then maybe your your last one to two were a challenge Right, I think that's right. Yeah uh, I mean The fact that they named with the the easiest one against the odds is insulting Sure It's just absolutely unbelievably hilarious Uh, and you know, I You generally like I for an eye Was was still a slam dunk arouni most of the time Because you don't have to pick the unit to destroy you said to kill something. So it's very hard with the counter Right, like if they blew one of your units up you could usually just flip that card and be like Okay, this is my trap card. Let's go You know and and you're gonna like focus all firepower on whatever their weakest thing is and lift something Right and if you've got eye you've got desecrate you've got against and you got barge barge. Yeah Right Oh, yeah, muscle garith. No that one was never used by me. No forget that that didn't that doesn't exist in my mind That relies on proving ground and and the enemy Uh And and the enemy having galatian veterans contesting it that is like such an out there possibility I don't even know what how I would rectify that Okay Uh, yeah, I would be curious for us. I don't know. There'd be a lot of work But like I don't in my head have a good sense of of all of these three point of battle times that we've got, right Where are we in terms of? What percentage of these books have very viable I have two battle tactics that are very viable. Let's say like the swarmcast book I know that unless you're running dragons, they're generally crap They're not good and you're not really I think I basically never used most have one to two Which is what you need most And that's what you need Yeah, I'd be just be curious if that's true or if anybody has done that because I I've never sat down and Try to do that. Yeah, the books that really push it are the ones that have three autos with almost no interaction I mean the one of the worst defenders is suns suns has like basically no autos because they all rely on a role happening Right, so okay, uh all right Two out of six grand strats require you to have gv, which you could simply not choose So nobody did next moving on so that that didn't that didn't incentivize galatian veterans any Four out of eight battle tactics have to do with gv only one actually requires you to have one to do something head to head Two of the four required you to kill enemy gv units Hence more incentive on bounty hunters and killing gvs and making gvs harder I I commented on all this originally and all this is just true. It's just more incentives on the pile right and then uh The one of the four gives a bonus if and only if you have multiple gv But you didn't need them like barge through was still good even if you didn't have them as gvs Right like I barged all the time and didn't care if they were gv or not So Then came the just real quickly here We're going to jump straight to the three strategies because I want to move us along This is the three strategies we had picked out as being the potential strategies this season right, which was You go a sort of ec army with heavy gv You win through objective domination. You have a high benefit to going second. That's what knight haunt pursued right If you've got a lot of elite troops that can deal damage you go bounty hunters and you bring all the hammers You minimize or control gv take a little to the none You have a high benefit to going second. You win through killing enemy gv and neutralizing through proving ground This is how I played for most of the season Right only I combined that within being a one drop Instead of actually going bounty hunter, right? I just said well, I can do enough damage I don't actually need to bounty hunter buff And then finally shooting Which was the counterplay to both strategies Lakes going first and still happily goes one drop And I think we still saw some of that around daughters of king did pretty well. Yeah, I'm through today, man Uh, get a sense of where were we at with shooting this year? Let's just say range damage shooting magic So quite a lot I'm looking for my list here, but there were a lot of people a lot of armies still doing shooting Sure It hasn't it's not the bogeyman it once was I think it is more in control I think there is a much better balance of the rock paper scissors right now for sure Um, but it's still around it's still absolutely around and by the way, I don't think that's a bad thing I'm not saying I want shooting to go away Um, I like melee. I prefer melee armies. I don't prefer to sit there and shoot But I think that it is minimized and that's like it should be over here in its corner It has its space shooting is a thing. It's just not the thing Right Yeah, yeah, look like I said at the start of the show, it's been better balanced than ever Due to a number of factors Yeah, it's it's so quiet probably um So if your army has gv that can meet the criteria mentioned resilient refillable mobile Congratulations for congress playing sense of payment now. Yeah Leads, you know, that all seems pretty good instead of reflected Think that reflected reality pretty well I think that reflected reality real. That's that's what night haunt did Okay They were the they were maybe the only one who could play this trap, but they played it A couple other armies tried their hand at this. I don't know how's it Right Like the example of stormkeep like that would have been stormkeep, but stormkeep Nope, that got taken off the table generally hardly ever saw that this year. It was all silence in stormcast the Not a lot of armies were trying to think what armies weren't able to play in that first one There were not that many. I think fire slayers Fire slayer players could play in that space A lot of volkites some hearth guard uh Yeah, I'm trying to think what else I mean when tom took his hearth guard, he specifically made them non-battle line just so he could avoid anything like that Avoid it. Yeah, that makes sense um And his gv were like the oric shooters that we would hide in the back, right? interesting So what are some of the other armies? Let's put the list here order seraphon Seraphon you saw a lot of mixed Yeah, I don't have the impression. Yeah that like we saw seraphon really playing into that at all someone. That's definitely not No, but that's not exactly ko no idk. No Uh doc not exactly recently. We've been seeing some more witch elves A really cool witch off list with five and over the weekends every winter But piece of chaos they can to some degree that they didn't necessarily play expert conquerors, but they often play the same strat Yes Absolutely flood and home Nurgle armies Not I mean a lot of the main ones that you saw it was like be some nergal spam or fly spam You didn't see that much in the way of like here's my 80 plague bears or whatever 60 80 plague bears. You didn't really see that much skaven no um, I mean they run I guess skaven runs three by 20 clan rats and expert conquerors, but It's not It's not a huge part necessarily of what they're doing Oh, that's certainly not doing that the damage obviously, but I mean it's sure part of the army But it's not like a critical part of the army. I think it's fair to say Um, yeah, a lot of these were not able to do that successfully I don't think so. So blight would have been able to do that had an open for bounty hunters But yeah, it's interesting just kind of going through it even more tech guard were impacted quite a bit this year I felt by by bounty hunters Oh, yeah, interesting. Yeah um So You know, I think that's where it went. All right, let's do you ready for some battle plan look back tyler Yeah, I I did I at some point I wanted to go more into the battle tactics Like just in terms of what because you have been very critical of battle tactics Oh, well, we'll have to I think that's a good discussion for whenever we get the new ghp Sure, okay Yeah, I mean there's all kinds of different design directions one could go in with battle tactics Or a lot of secondary objectives Sure what What's more reflective of the ideal because you clearly don't seem to think that this is Very reflective of the ideal But where we've been I I think the ideal would be to have as I've said, you know before as we talked about The ideal would be to have a simplified battle pack that cuts battle tactics completely And then I care a lot less about this Because then I can evaluate the problem is tyler. There's two axes upon which I have to consistently evaluate battle tactics, right? One is where it is they are really good things for tournament players And they are really good things for competitive players And I care deeply about having interesting interactive counterable Difficult to achieve 60 target battle tactics, right? That's one axis I care on The other one is battle tactics are a giant nightmare for casual players to even just wrap their head around and cause choice paralysis And freak a lot of people out by their very existence And there's no version of writing them Right of what the rules are where they can suddenly Satisfy that user base Right, they just aren't fit to purpose you think Is that a better world if we had a general sandbook With the battle tactics the secondary objectives all our battle tactics built into the missions I would I would be fine with that. I would love to see those kinds of things be built into the missions Yes, that would be a perfectly fine way to go But it's we're not going to go there before like a fourth that before a 4.0. Yeah All right, yeah, maybe we can talk about something because I mean there's a lot of interactions You can go and like I find I've watched a lot of 40k battle reports dude And I sometimes I just I mean I don't like I just find it a little Comoluted and difficult to just track Like a casual 40k viewer, right? Like they've got these three different secondaries. We're trying to do and like These guys are doing um I can remember what some of them are but yeah, and then they've got all these different like primaries over your plant flags These guys are doing Tower call radio calls. Yeah. Yeah It's just like it. Yeah, it just feels too much Like if you think that aos is complex and complicated then here's 40k You know try to watch the 40k battle report and follow everything that's going on. I just can't oh I mean, there's no doubt. We have the simpler side of it and thank god for that Sure. I mean we can we can say the sometimes the grass isn't greener. Sometimes it is in fact just grim dark mud over there It's terrible Okay Uh, cool. Let's let's here's I work now. Here's we're gonna do tyler. Okay We're not gonna. I have all the battle plan stuff in here that we made originally. All right We're not going to go through every battle plan because it doesn't matter like who cares We're just going to say them and then we're going to look at what we scored them and how right or wrong were we? Does that make sense? Sure. Okay prize a galae What did we score this 10 out of 10? best scenario in the book Ruling I stand behind this statement prize a galae is solid Love it great That's fantastic Is it the best in the book? I don't know if I would go there, but it's top three easily for me as well Wow, I'll be able to hear what you're better than prize of galaes are Sure I I love how it incentivizes slash um often entails playing a different game that is a deeper longer game Number of armies, right? They are built of list and armies are built to Smash early when the game by run three This one can put a kink in that at times I mean you could still smash your opponent off the table. That's but you can get what I'm saying in terms of how the objective activation works and Yeah, I it's it's really cool. I yeah, I wish we had more Of these kinds of designs that incentivize deeper longer games. I I agree I loved this scenario. I agree with garith who said it was the best on release and got better after the FAQed it Yep, like this thing was so good. I loved it I loved playing it when I was in a tournament and this was the next round I was always excited like yay This is going to be a fun one. It was always a fun one sorry I loved this one and by the by this one actually Another point of why we don't need proving ground Because this battle plan did all the work of incentivizing you to go second and round two It was a huge incentive to go second round two in this battle plan huge Right because otherwise it was going to be the the point that went active was going to be their point buried in theirs take zone period right It's gonna yeah, and that leads to a it could easily lead to a sizable point swing or in the game where now It's in terms of that hold one hold two hold more that is hold two and hold more getting turned on Round two. Yep. If you're going second Yeah, it's it just had a yeah impact a lot of games. Absolutely And this is my point. This is why we don't need things like proving ground We can just have if you have some battle plans that do that and they are used in tournaments Great, we did it. There it is. You know, we we got there folks. We got there because this had Way more of an impact on my choice Uh, then then proving grounds ever did or could Okay In round two it was yeah, if you go bottom around two you pick your own control it to deny them getting old two And I guess I said that right. I just want to show you deny them getting hold more as well because you're controlling Yeah, anyway, price of gala fantastic 10 out of 10 stand behind in my vote. Absolutely love it. All right Realm stone cash. This is the explodey one for everybody out there. I know you and I know what this one is, but you know, it pop Round one two, it's there and then pop and three four five. It goes somewhere else. Okay Cool I gave this a seven out of 10 strong good Right, but a little bit of alpha bunkering encouragement What did you what did you think of this one? Uh, yeah to me it's right around that Six and a half seven mark It's there are three battle plans to which are controversial That I put in the uh, I think seven to nine Eight to ten. Yeah eight to ten Eight nine and ten battle plan. I think there's seven solid battle plans there's There's three battle plans One of which is this I think are playable. So yeah, I'll probably be like, uh, oh, this would be in my top seven. Absolutely I can't imagine this wouldn't be in your top seven. That's crazy. That's what yeah So there's one that I put over it Sure, necklace saying could you define alpha bunkering alpha bunkering is when you build your list to go first Uh, like as I you go extremely low drops Then you take your entire army at the top of one and you move it forward into the middle of the table Knowing you are going to get charged and you are ready for that and you can absorb not only them charging you and fighting you one round But actually you're set up such that you can survive Sitting there for two rounds. Um, if they double you and you just sit there and then like if they double you It's a great day for you because that's exactly what you've built your army to do You picked the objective directly behind you That's also in your bunker because you would have made a little egg shaped circle On the on the board and you just sit there and they score basically nothing and you score everything You have to have very particular armies capable of going like hardcore anvil to pull this off But it's very doable by some forces Uh, this is my my eighth favorite better plan Wow Ridiculous, okay. Anyways, I say behind this one is a seven out of ten. I think it's one of the top ones I played this one a bunch. I like this one. I like the explosion switching around I like a little bit of randomness in turn three. You don't know where it's going to go The downside was this sort of uh alpha bunkering thing in the deployment area so Exactly. Yep Yeah, I just had yeah seen good players with less capable of playing this mission in a certain way a lead to Fair amount of skew Yep Okay, um, who could alpha bunker? Well, uh, Nick Nicholas Night haunt would be a good example because they can just like throw up big hordes of high ward save models That will then uh, then can be refilled and we'll have The little that would have the little ghosts The little cruciators amongst it reducing all incoming damage. Like that's a great alpha bunkering army Okay, very biased. Yeah by obviously sort of lists that spread you out more and play more of the board I mean this mission is the exact opposite, right? So that's fair. Yeah, I do think it's that that is the downside It just doesn't bother me as much A battle lines drawn I gave it a five out of 10. That was too high It's trash I That's that's the that is the that is the there you go done Why is it trash? The table quarters as objectives is nonsense Especially if we are lucky we didn't live in a world with where ecs became popular because this this Would have gone straight over the edge Of insanity. Okay. Let me table total up my table quarter. I have 280 models in this table quarter Did you play mini games with this one? Yeah, I actually did I I I played this one a couple of times because it was it was interesting to me And I really wanted to try to crack it. I never played this at a tournament I don't I didn't play a single tournament that used this But I played this at home. I don't know probably four or five times. I guess over the course the the year or six months, sorry And I just never liked it. It was never fun, you know, so Yeah, I found this one to be the most I was the most intrigued by this one Maybe of any of them originally because it is a different obviously design signature And battle plans. We've been accustomed to over the years. They had one like this in the thandia Sure, sort of pack as well Yeah, the community definitely hated this mission. Yes, that's fair to say Yeah, this is like one of the lowest used battle plans like absolutely it's way down there I think it is the lowest. Yeah Last time I checked at least according to the t-sports data the Played it about a half dozen times and always had interesting games, I'll say Oh You know had to get a lot of those games were with expert conquerors, but it wasn't with like an absurd number of expert conquerors I remember that also don't forget this thing shut off teleportation Right in the original point. I mean, yeah, I already basically argued with tom and you on the show You guys hated you guys really didn't like this one and I said, I thought I really hate this Yes, I was way too nice on five out of ten like seriously. They should get two out of ten But one of the one of my points about it was well a ton of armies Will have their teleport turned off now Those armies aren't a spectrum of how much do they lean into it versus how little some will be more impacted than others But in those half dozen games, I never My opponents and I never found it that meaningful to have it be shut off because they would have like ways to drop in Like stormcast or whatever some armies like silvaneth. Yeah, we're a little more impacted because of how they function with their teleporting Uh at the same time you have some options It's it's a longer discussion about why I think this one This is the one that I Disagree with the most in terms of the community at large. I think Someone deserved more Or trying out than it then it didn't got yeah, I think if you pulled the completely unnecessary restriction on teleporting out of this thing You know, it could have been More interesting because then at least we're playing with this weird objective Where it becomes this sort of weird edgy movement game trying to get into the various table quarters And by hook or crook and cheating to get in or whatever could have been more more interesting But again, I just think this thing is ready for skew like it will just skew off Very easily sure why tell I mean To me I understand why they had the limit on teleporting because that's reducing that potential for skew and You're just everybody's For the most part on an equal playing field You I mean, yeah, so I'm sure yeah No, there's lots of armies that don't move around 20 inches easily and then other armies that move for no, that's very And there's no difference between those two armies in it and it's no I know I know that there are some are Dude, this game has speed all over the place Like this idea that there's a lot of armies that are like OBR in this game That's the exception. That's not the rule most armies have ways to be mobile and to build to be mobile So I never I don't really buy that that idea. I don't know that you're building for this one challenge This one scenario You want to build the list you build? It's a good list Most armies build have mobility built into them If we go down the list, I've bet the vast majority of armies are even OBR are going to have mobile I mean freaking stalkers are going nine inches with plus three move. That's pretty mobile They have death riders that have good value in terms of eject of play. They don't do much in terms of combat, but anyway Yeah, I mean look here's what I'll say maybe it's the inner scaven player in me But you can take a hike with that crap Okay, if you're gonna build half my army books rules around in-game teleporting Then please don't shut them off or give me a refund on my army rules Like I don't know how better to say it Okay. Yeah, it's crap. I didn't pick an I picked an army because I picked one of the reasons I love scaven is because I like all of the silly Mobility and options that having like gnaw holes and skitter leap and those kinds of things Provide to me Okay, because I like being able to play the clever movement game And if if that's the and by the way, there's a ton of that in the book like a ton Okay, it is a major sub theme of scaven that they are teleporting right And if that's what you're telling me, this is how this army plays I'd really enjoy it if you don't give me a battle plan that says don't use half your army rules That's garbage. It's just garbage And if writing the table quarters thing means you have to shut off half of people's army rules I have a simple answer Don't write table quarters as the thing We don't need like we're It's a it's a hat on a hat Okay, it was if if doing this thing Creates this big problem Don't do the thing Don't bring in The lizards to eat the mice and then the whatever to eat the lizards and then the tigers which winter will kill off Okay, the simpsons already taught us the right answer to this 27 years ago Like and that's my issue Yeah, the like so the the counter at least in my I get that except that I just I tend to think there are a lot of armies That would have their Tricks turned off as well It's not like you're some special snowflake being scaven that it's only impacting you It's impacting quite a few armies. I don't care about how it's impacting anybody else. That's not my point I'm not this isn't a statement of parody Okay, look tyler if you kick me in the balls if you walk into my house and kick me in the balls Straight up hard as you can okay, and then go Why are you doubled over in pain? There are people far worse injured than that or you say look a thousand other people got kicked in the balls today I don't care about any of that at that moment Okay, I'm not making a statement upon parody of the meta or everybody's experiences I'm talking about me personally and there's going to be a lot of people who are in the same campus me who feel the same way where they're like Hey, how about I just I am having a bad time. I don't care that other armies also are or are not This is bad for me Yeah, that's it Yeah, so I would have to agree that you are getting kicked in the balls In that so yeah, we're obviously we're having a first principle discussion we we may have a difference of first principles on this mission and Yeah, it'd be more I don't know we don't have to go on for another 30 minutes about it But I do I do find it interesting because we're I mean we're usually in agreement on a lot of things And I'm clearly the one that's most likely in the wrong I'm on the wrong side of this argument because the community has said they hated this battle plan Not that the community, you know, not that a lot of people are always necessarily right, but yeah, I but I do First I think yeah, I mean the the marketplace has spoken. I suppose was to be whatever I would say there right like Yeah, I mean if people have voted with their dollar they have not spent dollars on this as it were Right, so so this one's a loser by that in that regard like You know in the general world we we we can't We can't use that as the determinant factor of what's good, but still It's absolutely one of those that if you do have it at your tournament by god, you need to let people know in advance Yeah, sure Okay, well in advance Lurkers dwellers below Uh Welcome to the dwellers below podcast some of our language comes at you with irresistible force Okay, at any rate I rated this a one out of ten I stand behind that All right explain yourself This mission was bad It was just bad it encouraged you to fight in a in a tiny line across the center of the board on a length wise deployment Worst deployment tiny fighting area unreasonably ridiculous capture rules Uh, no incentive to move forward. It's always going to lead to a scrum in the middle Easy instant lose conditions in the third battle round Like I stand behind everything I said about this being bad Like cool concept somebody was like hey, what if we did tug of war? As a as a scenario like that was a good idea And then that was it That was the last time a good thing happened here people did not play this I think this is one of the lowest I think this might be actually the lowest blade scenario That's way down there too. Yeah. Yeah This is the second one that I'm clearly in the minority on in the community trash So So What degree do you think it's a true statement? This one is legitimately within the family Of what was it the original battle plan taken hold knife to the heart Blood and glory and marking territory, which do you know the commonality very much is not knife to the heart It is fundamentally different than knife to the heart. Okay, so let's maybe say blood and glory Marking territory, which is essentially blood and glory, but with seismic shift which runs marking territory A blood and glory is four objectives one per quadrant And you auto win when you control all four objectives Extremely different. This was their attempt To write something thematically like those but insert rules That made it so you didn't so that it had to upend the strategy The problem was they flipped the coin all the way around to bad. Okay So all the instant win-lose mechanics have always been highly dubious in the community, right? Like knife to the heart and all those things people always found pretty Unlikable like what shirts uh marmite. They're marmite battle plans. There we go. Exactly Right The problem is because of the way the objective capturing in this one works It doesn't it isn't knife to the heart with knife to the heart Let's go back to that because that was that was like the first and sort of the the er example of this, right? And when I think of knife to the heart The interesting part about knife to the heart was trying to Uh Was trying to sort of navigate how much of your force were you willing to commit? Do you take the big gambit and rush in with everything? Do you try to split forces right like there's it was a very serious sort of like Play or or thought experiment you had to run very quickly in your head About how much of my army can they withstand and how much of my army do they Need do I need to hold back or something like that, right? So there there was some interplay there. Okay But This one is not that it had the that's why I didn't call it an instant win scenario I called it an instant lose scenario because of the way the objective capturing worked It felt completely. I mean understand those are actually the same thing depending on whose point of view you're talking about But it feels different. Like you didn't there was no point to ever rush them Round one. That's not how this worked Okay, it was very different than those And you know, I there's a lot of people in here by the way in the chat who are like I like Peppa, what's up, buddy says I straight up want to attend a tournament that uses instant win battle plans. I get that Like I get that feeling Because they can just suck Like I personally liked knife to the heart But I liked the thought experiment that it caused me to go through But if somebody told me they hated knife to the heart, I was like, yeah, sure. I understand that Like I have no pushback on that whatsoever Oh, yeah, yeah, absolutely. Yeah, I was more in the camp of not liking it the main reason I could see some potential value in those kinds of missions is blood and glory knife to the heart now lurkers below led to a lot of minors led to separation I gave I could see the perspective one could argue that our first principles. That's a bad idea in itself That to the heart led to a lot of minors. So led to separation at many tournaments, right? You've got a major. I got a minor whatever it was a minor victory that separated us So I do know in many tos over the years who have liked these missions for that reason again You could argue on first principles whether that's a good idea But that yeah, so I could see from the perspective like to me lurkers blow is along those lines lurkers would say Most of the time is going to lead to a minor Probably even more so than these others which is part of what makes it worse. I think Knives of the heart or blood and glory Probably easier to get a major on those than it is this one It's very I think very challenging to get a major victory on lurkers below That works How many times did you play it and what was mostly your your outcomes? Most of my games were I literally never No, I played this once and I hated it and I never played it again. That's it That's it That's it like this was a one out of ten for me right off the rip. I and I stand behind that score I hated this mission I can't be any more visceral than that like as much as I didn't like That battle lines drawn. I did play it more times Okay, at least there was like something interesting going on around the board At least I wanted to move different places and try things I This just felt like the death of of anything interesting going on What's up scott, uh, all right, here we go in the presence of idols I gave this one a six out of ten All right, where are you standing on this one tyler? What are you where are you standing? That was what I had originally given this I will tell you uh I think I'm probably in the same place on it. It's like it's what'd you give it? I gave it a six out of ten. Maybe I'd take that down to a five out of ten Just because I kind of hated some of the idol Goofy-ness a little bit and it did reward sniping two things I mentioned here originally Uh, but I would maybe lower my score a tad, but I think this was a perfectly viable Uh scenario it was fine Hmm Yeah, no, I liked it. I this saw a lot of play in the community. I would often see this one at tournaments I would give it a solid seven out of ten the Extra faff, uh, you know extra crap that we don't need I can't remember what it's something like reduced battle shock Yeah, just get rid of that. We don't need that. Sure. Of course. There was a lot of faffing about in this. Yes Um, but no play this one a lot. It was one of our regular rotation. It's in my top seven I think yeah, it's solid. It's reflective of a fairly well established template at this point in terms of emission structure The equivalent of this last year was survival of fittest Which was kind of middle of the road play like yeah, you would it would often show up at tournaments It wasn't anybody's favorite for the most part, but it would it would certainly see play Yep. Oh, yeah, I like it. It's fine. It was a perfectly fine middling one So great. Yeah. Yeah Um, the nightest paths. I originally gave it a six out of 10 Uh, I stand behind my statement of it's one of the worst deployments maps ever Ever ever ever this deployment map is awful. Look at this. Look at this travesty. We're gonna see one worse I Oh my god, these are so bad. These are so bad. Please do not defend this this awful map I gave it a six out of 10 again. Yeah, I think this was fine. I played nightest paths a lot I was fine with it It was like if again, this showed up in tournaments. I was fine with it Like how often did you find yourself using the path? Most never almost never it really yeah I like came out. I mean, you know a lot of games you'd have to defend it um, but yeah, it never really came into play So it it had some impact in terms of like You had a unit that was doing something it something different than it would be doing otherwise Getting on objective screening zoning, whatever the case might be, but sure. Yeah So Sitter's hanging out in the back being like we got this boss saying no one coming through this game Exactly. Yeah, like my my single blight lord. Yeah at nash con. That's what he did for For this mission in round four. I think we played this one To me, it's another solid one another seven out of ten eight out of ten. I don't mind the map. I I'm kind of Getting a kick out of some of these disagreements like You you yeah, you definitely get more frustrated about some of these maps than I do Oh, I'm very focused on the deployment map. I really am You joke about it. Are you like I don't think I'm making too much of this by the by Okay, man We have Often not enough time at the start of a round I value every minute of a round never an issue for me. I don't know what your problem is but and keep going Measuring out all of that nonsense It takes time. It just does whereas, you know, it doesn't take time a flat line My deployment is an 11 inch area on this side of the table. I take out the tape measure I set a whore. I set a ruler there done Let's go to setting up units. Look at that took me five seconds Okay It's not hard. It's like as opposed to as opposed to 15. Yeah, that's As opposed to going. Okay. Well, it's that's totally not true when you know it because I got to go 15 out from here They got to find this spot up Okay, mark that now I got to come nine back and make the half moon Then I got to come over here and up boom another half moon Now I got to come up and over here and another half moon and then so we've got this weird Thing that goes like this. That's actually the deployment map Or somebody's got the half moon As little as sticks on etsy. I saw this week. I don't know who's doing that, but but I love it I picked up some of those at Nashcon didn't make it easier Yeah, here's what I'll say man It's this easy. Okay If you were if you were in using UX if you were in UX or UI There is no world where you would develop A single visualization where in this one The blue area is where you are not allowed to set up your troops, right? Like the blue area here that is your territory does not represent where you allowed to set up your troops right Like because because nine inch Half moons out of each of these is not where you can't put people there Right Whereas it's a aim there Whereas in this one the blue area is where I can set up my troops completely and there is No distinction visually to the user to imply that there is any difference there There Those kinds of things matter Yeah, if you want a smooth user experience just saying Okay Nine inch sticks down at the objectives. It's fine. It's I understand. Oh, I understand Even figuring out where those stupid things go, okay The mighty and the cunning, uh, I gave it a five out of ten Probably should be a four out of ten should be a one This is this this mission is complete trash this mission. It's just the I'm not gonna fight you on it Let's take it down further. I'm with you like in the end this thing the bad points runs just made it so bad Yeah, it's whatever that rule. There's two rules. Okay shadow the shrink that's get rid of that and it's a good mission Get rid of that. I think do you like this map? I think the map's cool like four objectives across the middle. It's fine Yeah, it's like it's nice widespread It's much different like when you're That line is very different than lurkers below because you're not just fighting in one place like it creates a long battle line Yeah, I like I have no issue with the four objectives thing across the middle the shadow their strength is what broke this and makes it terrible Absolutely. Yeah, the other special rule is fine. It's interesting pick a proving I mean, I know you're not a huge fan of the proving ground, but that's not going to do anything harmful for the most part pick The same one is proving ground multiple times cool, whatever Yeah, that's But this one appropriately did not see any play Yeah, I mean again, it was bad because they added this thing that lets you go on points runs. They were just ridiculous It was insanity. Yeah, otherwise completely balanced season All right head on collision Uh I gave it a seven out of ten I stand behind that now this wasn't what this is a one two four So it's a little bit off of the the the one two more. It's a one two four not one two more Uh, but I'm still willing to tolerate it. I like the one two four setup in this I think this was a perfectly fine implementation of that Um played this one a lot. I played this one a lot. This one got a lot of play in in my Sort of basement. We we we run this one a lot and Had a good time with it. It generally provided for some interesting games Definitely, yeah Same same seminar 10. It's not a lot of seven out of 10s this season. Yeah for me with with these missions Very solid. It's part of the family of savage games border war, you know going going way back to original border war Basically the og mission of h of sigmar It's it's that same basic structure. It's playing less of the board so it can benefit these more Basically like armies that are castley that also do power projections. I'm thinking like zinch like I'm going to put it on my pink So I'm going to put up my cron spine. I'm going to blast you with my 18 inch zone Zinch loves this kind of mission, right? It kind of constrains the board space helps them constrain their cat She said yeah, I think it's really good Contrast a lot of these other missions that spread you out like not to spread you out Folks still nest spread you out. This one is a little more constrained But it also has interesting play because of the four point, you know So you kind of to protect your back one from deep strikers. What are the case might be? Yeah, really good mission absolutely Uh won't back down Uh, I will openly admit. I didn't really play this one a lot. I gave it a three out of 10 Um, I'm pretty sure I stand behind that So uh, I think This is the one like anecdotally my sense has been that As people as more people played this mission they came to like it Let's have to their initial impression Certainly my initial impression was the four plus sort of out as a massive red flag Four plus rally because four plus rally is red flag in general in most cases in this game It Hardly ever had an impact. I know sometimes at a tournament top table There's really good looking for a little advantages. It could come into play and it could create some skew I think it's a better mission if you simply get rid of that four plus rally rule just get rid of it It's a good mission. I love the map No, they're so funny because what we keep hitting on is Oftentimes there's like the good bones of a missionary. You asked me earlier. Can you write 12 good missions? Yeah, I first of all, no Keith Rogers. Obviously you're new song quotes Like immediate. That's why I said Tom Petty's favorite battle plan right on there. But secondly Look at how do you write good battle plans? I I'll answer your question very simply Tyler. You're ready Stop adding a dumb rule to an otherwise good battle plan that ruins it You're just trying to create variation when you don't need to through these extreme rules Simple rules like what happens here with the Galatian veteran bonus right Where you got like this one bonus vp if you took the thing and you had this unit within six inches of it Right, whereas only when you gained control and only they you know this like a little Little variations all the battle plans that had a rule that was just like little variation Fine all the ones that try to do these like big mega rules. They just stapled on there Like let's give your whole army for a brawler. Let's shut off all teleportation or no more deep striking or ambushing like no trash trash trash Stop it yeah, I I feel like this is you know Bringing up your favorite army. So forgive me if I keep mentioning it too much but we I loved our discussion around the the work out of battle pack because That was one of the first principles that came out of that design process Every mission in that battle pack has one unique thing That's it local points you get an extra victory point if you hold The crisscross right one and three a game of heroes you get one extra victory point if you meet the conditions of having a hero of nine moons or less But within three inches of magic, but it doesn't stack. Yeah, so that We learned that we then it started out with that idea Even though it's kind of obvious when you think about it or should be obvious, but yeah, no, absolutely. You're right I love I but even with the nonsense rule later on top. It's it's a fine mission But it can create skew Some situate you there'll be a time when somebody's got I don't know hearthgard What what hearthgarders are gonna really but whatever the case might be like aim your good unit Like I don't know four fulminators and they rally back three of them Right because they roll three five ups or something. Sure Whatever the case might be but three four. I mean it's it's full. It's well Oh, when you say hearthgard like hearthgard remember always remember all fires layers always rally on fires. Yeah, that's why Yeah, but they don't need the scenario rule to do this. They don't need it. Yeah So bad pick, but I take your meaning So, yeah, full fulminators at the end there. Yeah, that's another example, but yeah All right Silk steel nests this one I played a heck of a lot. Okay I gave this a seven out of 10 I might bump that up a point Uh, this little bravery pop thing didn't end up really mattering that much like I was very upset about it originally And I still am upset about it because again It's like Again with the extra rules that we don't need to be here. You could delete this entire scuttling whores dumb nonsense Stop rolling 2d6 against bravery ever please as a concept Uh, like this hole just takes some moons when you burn an objective dumb dumb dumb dumb doesn't need to be there But it's a minor thing and honestly, I ended up having a great amount of fun with this one It like eight objectives is fantastic. It makes you play everywhere across the board Had a lot of fun trading back and forth figuring out when to burn when to hold how it was going to do Playing the hold one hold two hold more game while you're burning and so on and so forth This one ended up being incredible fun for me. This one actually moved up in my estimation Super solid battle plan eight out of ten for me after the season as the season ends Absolutely man. Yeah, nothing more to add. It's it's fantastic mission. Yeah, get rid of the scuttling whores Yeah, exactly just So so how do we write 12 battle plans? We've solved the problem gw Stop adding that one more dumb rule. Just go through one more pass Have a person there who just simply asks the question Does this rule need to be on this battle plan? And if the answer is no as it most always is Erase it and you're going to write 12 good battle plans. You got all the good bones here. You're so close Just have saps employ somebody I went to catholic school Just hire a nun with a ruler They'll take care of you. Okay, you're gonna start walking you're gonna start you're gonna keep typing. They'll come up Wrap them knuckles with a ruler You'll be all set. Okay. No issues at all to catholic school. You really need to watch both midnight mass and warrior nun I watch on it. Yeah Yeah, it's fun. Absolutely. It's pretty good. Uh, and my kathy watched midnight mass. That's fine. Uh, okay Uh close to the chest Oh boy, I gave it a six out of 10. Um, oh you're wrong Is wrong with you Because I found my new this is still the this is this is the worst deployment This is truly the worst deployment. Oh my god, so let me Uh, I'm going up to show you how to do deployments and it's one thing. I'm fast at deployments quickly I I I'm glad for your luck. Most of the community does not have this this of this skill Uh, great mission great map It's uh, yeah, it's forcing the hands And in different colors It's it's fantastic. Yeah. Yeah, but I I have no problem with this Like again, I gave it a six out of 10. I'd stand behind that number. It was fine It's out of 10 because of the map. Is that is that what you're doing two points off because of the map at least At least but yeah, it's fine. Like I I don't I don't dislike this one I mean again, the deployment is terrible, but once you're over that This is a fun Uh thing to play Okay, gareth says a solid seven. There we go. I have a six here and an eight gareth is seven But we're we're in the middle there. Look the point is it's a good one, right? It comes down the side of good I'm not disagreeing with that so So that's cool Tracing the nine inch around this is truly hell. This is my hell. This is where I will go I will it will it will be just me setting up this battle plan repeatedly Uh turf war Is put sticks down by the objectives in the center of the objectives. It's fine Oh my god Turf war I gave it a two out of 10. Were you living on this one? before yeah, uh Actually, I did not play turf war. I should have Nobody ever had any interest. It's not because yet again. It's one of those ruin your allegiance abilities things Yeah, it's just I don't tend not to be a fan of missions that have one objective or two objectives Maybe if I played it and if you got rem if you maybe it's an interesting mission if you get Red of the two special rules there and just try it out on two objectives It's not too bad, but Historically missions with two or one objectives are not that interesting personally. Yeah, historically two two objective missions are pretty bad Right, like that's that's just kind of yeah, like Yeah, there was one one of the worst all time that had two Uh, I don't know what the hell it was called, but it was it was a nightmare It was heroes only as well. Yeah. Yes, correct Uh, and that's it. That's all that's the last one. So I mean you can see here Let me let's just give this a quick count by my score ready. How many were actually valid for play? Okay So one on close to the chest two for silk steel nests Uh three for head on collision Four for the knight is paths Five for in the presence of idols, but maybe that's a halfy, but we'll say five Uh realmstone cash for six I'm prize a glade for seven But like I said, I really only give a halfy to that one hence my statement a little while back of six and a half Yeah, that's my six and a half I think yeah, it's me one goes gets a halfway playable Yeah One by down. Yeah, I don't know. You should try one back down See I see I feel about it. I think I did well. I am a big Tom Petty fan Yeah, good mission Cool. Well anything else? I think that's it. I think we got to the end I mean, here's let's let's summary shall we I didn't put in a summary slide, but let's summary a little here Okay When we really look at it, I think what went wrong from this season was from the foundational moment We intended this to be an infantry focused season and then promptly put in rules that made your hordes of infantry disappeared from the game We don't actually have an infantry keyword. So we were trying to lever this whole season On something that didn't exist in the base game rules Right, which is always going to be challenging. We created a lot of mental load on people To remember all this crap because there's too much going on in the battle pack Like the battle pack needs to be slimmed the stuff that doesn't need to be there can be cut Right, we don't need a An incentive for round two thing. We don't need a realm command. We just don't need these things They don't need to exist. There are plenty of compelling command abilities right now I am I am happy with the command abilities. I have in every army between the basics and the ones that they generally add in the book like I am I have an abundance of riches in command abilities. I want to use Sure I I don't need this Right, you've put this beautiful meal in front of me I've got some fresh lobster over there. I've got a big juicy steak I've got all this stuff and then you know, you walk up and you bring me like You've got this realm command and you're throwing some kale at me. I'm not gonna eat that Get that out of here. Okay But like So I think that where we went wrong was right at the jump Hmm Where we went right is in the play test stuff for fourth edition Right The uh keith the answer is yeah, they are available in the app But that's it and I saw your statement there of like you don't have the app But I think that's the that is all the current scrolls for it um I think you could I think the FAQ has them too The the FAQ that for the ghb. I think has all the up-to-date war scrolls and points in it So you could just go pull the ghb FAQ keith the pdf and that would have more um I you know what I hope for next season is let's simplify this down some let's stop Getting to all this stuff and and have something a little bit easier a little bit easier to wrap your head around And for the love of all that is holy, let's hope we get good core battalions because what this tells me is that Boy, oh boy does a lot of the season turn on the quality of the core battalion mm-hmm That seems fair What about you? Yeah, we Also didn't even talk about the incarnate and the impact that it had on the chp this season I mean, he's had a lot of other discussion on that. He's his whole own nightmare Yeah First on yeah, I would expect that we'll probably continue to get that like get one theme to the the upcoming season I assume that will be the case can't wait Uh, I mean, yeah Few of the things I had here. I don't think we need the physical points booklet anymore It would be nice to just get rid of that just do a digital pdf. I think that would be ideal With this thing, but we talked a lot about that Uh, what else I think endless spells or I don't mind the book a lot less by the way when it's one a year That's another thing when it's two a year at that's another it's like a cost, right? So sure but continue I'm specifically referring to the points side of the point should absolutely just be digital Yeah, 100 which they've they've committed to making the points available digitally for free. So who cares? That's fine The endless spells I think were in the best place that they've ever been in They think finally hit a pretty good middle ground Uh, I was going through the endless spells and the majority of them saw play this year There was only a handful that hasn't seen much play like Let's say shackles militant melstrom Uh, grave tide those didn't see much play but most of them, you know, obviously we had the issue with purple sun But so I mean those were in the ghp. So they came to mind. Yeah, sure. I mean, I I mostly agree with that I think there's still some uh There's still some adjustment that needs to happen to their thinking with endless spells Like they're just not doing enough damage for what they're supposed to be So there's still some fundamentals. We've got to get right with them. But yes, they aren't the advantages right now They're there's none of them that you feel like compelled to take or that are broken And there's but then there are some that are just like man, whatever But like so I think we still got some work, but they're not causing an outright issue, which I'll consider a win Yeah, absolutely. Yeah Yeah, aether boy pendulum is a good example of that that you're referring to You know, it doesn't do enough damage to to justify its point cost. So uh We I mean just to say it every episode we seem to talk about this, but Seemingly the ghp would be the right place To give us real terrain rolls in this game It would be nice See that in january It's a half page Obscuring slash wildwood impassable And garrisonable slash defensible That's all we need and maybe a little system on how to do it I think that There have been a number of tournaments that have implemented this in different ways Um gareth is in the comments. He has a nice way that he's implemented it Yep, great terrain you show up the table and yeah to The defender choose the defense sets up the train and they specify I believe they specify Two pieces for Defenseable two pieces for impassable two pieces for he calls it wildwood, but essentially obscuring sure a wildwood to be in theme with their choice of keywords and yeah He's just laughing at uh cool who said terrain rolls would be cool. But what about another command ability? Oh, tell me more. Yeah Okay Yeah, um, I think I agree with you completely there. That's that would be a wonderful world to live in but all right Here we stand on the precipice. I'm sure basically january early You know like I I have to imagine early january is when we see the announcement for the new jhp and what's going to be in it Right, it's it's going to be coming before we know it so Fingers crossed right Let's see what happens Uh, I'm going to call this six months of wash now. Let me say it this way. I still had a lot of good games Right, I don't want to I don't want to make it sound like it was all terrible I had so many good games because again the underlying game is in such a good point or such a good place It it is the the shame of this to me Is that this jhp was such a uh lodestone Around the neck of what has become the most balanced meta with the most armies having the most fun paths to victory Having the best battle tomes Right like balance battle tomes, right? Everything is is banging on all cylinders And then we have this jhp. That's that's frankly not where we wanted to be Right and and that's why it hurts. I think a little more than than otherwise. I would care Right, that's right. So I I mean, you know, I had went to multiple tournaments and under this jhp had a fun time at them Uh, you know liked playing the games most of tournaments I went to just used the the the scenarios that I like So I was like, yeah good. Okay. We're playing the good scenarios, right? So, I mean the next jhp if it's good If the next jhp is good if they get like 10 to 12 good battle plans If the rules aren't if the sort of battle pack seasonal rules aren't a nightmare of complexity then We could have a really interesting great time on our hands right because then we're just it's it's All all ahead, right? Just like full steam ahead You know, uh Upward and onward. So I I I remain very hopeful for this new jhp. I can't wait to see what's going to be in it I I really think we're We're primed that if it's good, we this this six months at least will be the best six months in aos history All right, let's do it. Yeah We we we stand tyler here on the precipice of greatness and glory It is but ours if we wish it reach out Take it It's yours Okay, so do we watch that? Yeah, it's good stuff. All right At any rate for all of you out there. Hey, how can you reach out and take glory easy? Just click that like button and if you haven't already subscribed that's that's fantastic It helps other people find the show and it cost you absolutely nothing. So click the little likey button. It's it's so easy Uh, also if you're interested in supporting the channel, don't forget. We've got a patreon down below focused on the hobby You can join that And that is helps you with your review And feedback and all those kinds of things to take your next step on your hobby journey We've got a merch store down there The the shirt probably won't arrive in time for christmas I I don't think the shipping is it might but might not can't guarantee anything but don't forget you have 16 days left or 17 days left sorry to To show your vote for team tom or team tyler So, you know, who will win in the great war? Of which is the superior co-host and decided by you the viewers and you're voting By buying their t-shirts But as always tyler, thanks buddy appreciate it. Mm-hmm. Absolutely had a good time Actually, we had some disagreements, which is fun. This is good discussion I've been I've been trying to work on that this year find ways to Disagree with the old pain in the ass here It was great for all of you out there. Thank you so much for watching Uh, we really appreciate it hit those buttons do all the fun things and as always We'll see you next wednesday