 Welcome and thank you for being here so thrilled that you've chosen to join your time with us today. We know that you have a lot of options and we're so grateful that you chose to spend this valuable time here with Julia Patrick myself and our fantastic guest Mark Boozen and I hope I'm saying that right. Let me let me do that Mark Boozen. So thank you Society of Nonprofit Board Directors and there's a nonprofit board summit coming up that we're going to hear all about. And Mark is really going to peel back so many layers of what we might have thought the reason that NPO board members serve and really dive into why they truly serve. Before we do jump into this conversation with you Mark we of course want to make sure that our guests know who they are seeing, or perhaps listening to in our podcast, Julia Patrick CEO of American nonprofit Academy. I'm Jarrett Ransom, your nonprofit nerd CEO of the Raven Group, and we are marching towards our 600th episode. Thank you so very much to our amazing sponsors, which include Bloomerang American nonprofit Academy, Fundraising Academy, Nonprofit Nerd, your part time controller, the nonprofit Atlas, nonprofit thought leader as well as staffing boutique. These companies, many of them have been with us from the beginning, which was March of 2020. As I just mentioned we have over 600 episodes. If you miss anything from today or you want to hear it again, you can find us far and wide on multiple channels that includes Roku, YouTube, Amazon Fire TV, as well as Vimeo. But wait, there's more. What? You heard me mention we are on podcast so wherever you stream your podcast go ahead and queue up the nonprofit show. And you can listen to this episode with Mark Buzan here as we dive into why your board members truly serve on the NPO. So Mark, welcome. Thank you and congratulations. 600 episodes that's a that's quite a compliment and accomplishment. Thank you. You know, in the very beginning, it was a labor of love as we just spoke about a labor of life. This is labor of love. And we have really grown to love waking up to do it. Truth be told, I'm an early bird, Julie is a night owl so together we combine our energy and efforts. But we are really honored to have the continued interest, not only, you know, the support from our sponsors but interest of amazing thought leaders like yourself. So tell us a little bit about yourself, Mark, where you're joining us from and what you do in this big world of ours. Certainly thank you for that then. Yes, so my name is indeed Mark Buzan. I am a 25 year professional in the field of of associations, most of my experience actually has been in the professional association aspect of the nonprofit world. We talk about nonprofits, you know, there's a big umbrella like that. But I haven't done a number of work, a number of years experience in the charitable world. And so so what I do and what's what's my main thing that I do is I run an association management company and as that's over the years is really because we run the day to day affairs for number of different organizations at the same time. That a unique opportunity over the years to really get to interact with more than one board at a, at a time and get a sense from them as to what makes them tick. And that's been always been a bit of a, a passion of mine is is and that's, that's, I guess, that's why I am I'm curious I want to know, get into the hood and understand what things are reverse engineer them and really get a, get a sense of things. And what, what what are the one of the organizations that that we have under our wing is the Society of nonprofit board directors and the, the, the impetus of the beginning of this really dated back to a bit of a story on this is back in 2015 I can talk about it a little bit more openly now with the benefit of time I like to say I was fired into success. And after getting under the wrong end of an agreement of a disagreement let's say with my board as this. And if you've been an executive director maybe you've had your you've had an agreement on this and this is a bit of a sad thing that we don't talk about this very much about that dynamic of that relationship between the board and the executive director and that and I, it took me a long time frankly to really kind of reflect and enter like this, because I know a little bit about myself I'm just a, I'm just like that the guy I get the, the horse blinders on me and I know what I got to do and I get down and when I hire, hire out there and, and my attitude at that time is, damn it. Can we say that I don't know on this one. I know what I need to do why can't they see it and as this has been after an experience of one hand of a board who literally were in in like not not talk about nose and they had fingers palms facing there in the business like this. When I ran from that organization only to get into one other the opposite end of an organization like say who's literally to quote Dr Phil, you'd have to jump onto the hood of their car to get their attention on anything on really big matter, things that mattered like potential fraud and all these kinds of issues like this and, and after that after that experience and linking my wounds if you will like say I said okay. Okay, what part in this dial. Yeah, I think that's something that takes some time okay what part did I, and that's hard that's really hard as an individual you say okay what part did I oh it's usually takes two to tangle on this. And so as I was just, I was kind of it you know discovering and figuring out what will be my next, what will be my next move I had a number of chats with board directors at time to ask them. Okay, check your attitude like this. What's your situation like this what what's your view on the matter that happened. And why do you do this, I said genuinely speaking, you don't get paid for this. You get a lot of grief for it. You're legally sometimes responsible for a lot of stuff like really serious stuff. You know how we talked about this in North America, even legal response but in places like Australia, you can go to jail for some of this stuff like no jail and fine they, they don't mess around and down under I tell you right now. They don't they really don't mess around for boards. So, why do you do this. And the response after talking to a number of them one after another said, my God. Okay, one the first thing is I noticed. You're repeating the same damn mistake, everybody else had seen the time and time and time again like this because the nonprofit world works in silos. If you're on the board of your local chamber or board of trade, or you can't possibly ever know learn anything let's say from your local, local community foundation no no no your board, your boards are completely different right, or the American Cancer Foundation, a big, big, big, big giant organization they got nothing to learn from a little small like this. Of course they I'm being facetious of course they can learn something like this. It's always different greed different issues but the same thing got done repeating themselves. I said this is insane. This is insane. Why aren't they not learning from each other. So let's, let's learn from you then because let's start off and you mentioned something when you and I were talking. And Jared and I have had this conversation a lot on air and off air. Talk to us about the issue of a board members ego and the sense of prestige, because that's a real thing and again, to your point we don't talk about it. We don't talk about it and we can see it's kind of like like I said to you before, we kind of view it because we've got this more a nonprofit martyr syndrome there like this like it's like I must be good or I like to call the Sergala had complex, because my causes just I will I must be right on this. Drop it everybody it's human nature. It's just simply human nature. It's just to be motivated by a personal thing like that like get over yourself this is, and it's and it's okay. One of my favorite quotes is actually from, you know, what when you're generally in the US general patent, he said, cherish your prima donnas. They will do wonders for you. What does that mean. Okay, people have a motivation to do something like this. And I got to tell you, there's a bit of this, Julia, you know, stepping aside a bit of self interest in this I must admit that when I was fine founding is at the same time, you know this organization I was finding my association management company I'm trying to logically reimburse it like this okay what's, what's my marketing message what's people going to do this kind of thing. And this I'll you know, you know, we're going to take stuff off your plate and we're going to run it there, you know, sure that well that that's not what motivates people. You don't get paid for this. Okay, you don't get, you know, that's a whole other debate I don't think you should but there's a debate on that you don't get paid more or less for this. You can take a lot of grief for it. You can take family you take time your valuable time away, often from your career, your family. Maybe your hobbies. And I said to somebody else I said someone when I'm just trying to understand why people do this kind of thing that would, you know, motivate them to want to be, you know, like this is like, are you a sucker for punishment why do you why do you do all why you take all this And amongst board directors. None of them really gave me came out and said that this makes me feel good this is great for my ego nobody's gonna ever say that right nobody like that because that's that's not going to just like peacock in front of you and be like, No, for my ego. Nobody says that you kind of have to, you kind of have to read after a few years of just asking this consistent question all the single top of the time. I started reading between the lines, I said, yeah, yeah, okay, okay, I get it. When I asked them a few two questions why do you know why do you do all this kind of things is a few things is one. I want to feel like I leaving a legacy. I feel like I want to be part of something bigger than myself. And you start thinking all those kinds of things okay what okay. That's just that's just feeding a human nature of this. I mean, you can call it ego I can call it go I'm okay with that let's just be okay can we just be okay with that and say what it is. It's okay. Everybody's got a human nature in their human nature you got a Maslow's human needs to feel like you're safe you're secure, you're loved, you're valued, and then there's a little bit further up is a little bit of a sense of self extension on this. I'm talking about that that desire to be something bigger. Jared, you made the most interesting comment. Before we went live and that was the number of people that have disclosed to you. I want to join a board just get me on a board help me out, because it'll help my business. Yeah, a lot of people, you know, and I, I have not subscribed but mark you might change my mind here about you know people that will say I want to be on a prestigious board. That will help me grow my business I can network. Basically, you know, rub elbows with the people that need that I need to help me grow my own portfolio or sell my own widgets. And I thought that is not very altruistic of them shame on them right but mark you think differently. Well okay I want to I want to put a classification on that you need to be that needs to be balanced and certainly like that if they're if they're going in there and they're not contributing and living up to the responsibilities. Okay, that's a whole other thing that's a that's a relationship, like in any really other than employee employer relationship the point is getting in there, and then just taking taking taking and contributing well then that's that's not a good. But for, for somebody let's think about this. Okay. I might fit another favorite quotes and like interviewing hundreds of board directors I have over the years I asked them. You know how do you view things he says mark, we go to the board and this was an international association like that so it's a very like this he says, we don't call our board members volunteers we can call them professional contributors. We contribute mind share and space and like that and that leads back to by the way the ego is feeling like, okay, you value my input like this. And as a result of this and I'm giving you whatever it may be years of experience years of my connections and like this. I think it's okay I think it's okay that's and it's reasonable that there's got to be some kind of a give and take you wouldn't go to an employee and say we'd like you to work 40 years, 40 hours a week and by the way we'd like you to do it for the cause without a salary. Right, right. Well and the other thing I think about to is the best nonprofit board members that I see that are successful. They actually have built a community within the board right, they've gotten to know each other, they support each other. They go beyond the boardroom. Honestly, you know these individuals go beyond the boardroom or beyond this zoom, you know, a platform, and that's the same with staff right when you built the sense of belonging the sense of community the sense of, you know, creating and crafting a legacy to give you know it's it's beyond the eight to five it's beyond the boardroom. Now, here's, I would say, you know, a curveball but since we're in like, I don't know, final fours of basketball I feel like whatever it is I know. I'm clearly not a small fan. So are you girl. So, like, half, half point shot right like I'm just lobbing it out there is. What about the like what goes on. I'm jumpy here. What goes on in the office can at times be dramatic a little dysfunctional a little. But the board members know about this. And so we keep the board members kind of on an island. Everything's roses and rainbows, and that's not always the case. No, how do you address that disconnect of, is it being untruthful. Is it not being transparent like, how do you bridge that gap. That's a great point there there's got to be an aspect of trust going on between the two. And I would also this is a bit of a challenge I put out to staff. And I, and I, I must say this a bit of dis unease I feel sometimes out there. There's a bit of a culture what I call board bashing. Yes, boards are not to be trusted boards are a pain in my, you know what, they're in our way they're there. Yeah, are a unfortunate necessity I must tolerate. Yes, rather than a resource that they could be there and should be there. So that's the first thing I always say I challenge. If we're speaking to executive directors in the staff is, okay, try to put yourself in the other person's shoes. Okay, how are they viewing this. Yeah, okay. Why are they involved in this they've got a desire usually they got a desire to want to give back. They've got a feeling that they want to this is a bit of a grandiose, not a grandiose thing I'm trying to be able to this this edifies me. That's probably the best way this is a way I want to be feel edified a little bit more. Yeah, you know what, good on you, my view, good on you for doing that there. You should do that that's that everybody should feel I think you know since there's a human nature doesn't matter where you are in the world, feel good about yourself. And if this is the way that you, this is the way that you do that then I'll off to you, my, I salute you for that and you're in the same time. So to bring that trust factor in I think there's a bit of an equal factor that has to be in there. There has to be a board that has to be some staff in there that are prepared to understand and sometimes take off their own hat. I tell you, as the guy I said was fired into success. I was not easy. I was not an easy exercise at first for a while you're angry or like that and darn those guys. But it takes a certain degree of maturity and they'll say okay usually there's two tango and say in things like this what part did I, what part do I own in this. So I would put that out there and then to the boards as well, particularly the board leadership is to also understand that everybody's idea of involvement or expectations is going to be different in yours and be prepared for that. You know, Mark one of the things I'm always astounded by is the disconnect between what the actual role duties or responsibilities of the staff versus the board versus the CEO are and I find that organizations that haven't communicated what those expectations are using the guardrail kind of method of like, what lane should you be in. They're the ones that oftentimes have the most dysfunction. And I'd love to get your feedback on this is, you know, when you see organizations that actually have support at the meeting that are in the they can't vote and they might not even be at the table but they're there or they're observing on they're there to ask, answer questions. Those organizations seem to have a better tenor when it comes to what's going on, and that disconnect I feel really occurs when staff is not present at the meetings and for both of you. What do you see how do you, how do you evaluate that. Well, every case is going to be different in my mind, Julia, but you're right. I mean, like, obviously, for more mature organizations, it's not uncommon and I've seen that particularly for the senior staff, the CEO, maybe his or her VP or VPs or senior director equivalent will be there. You're very much right there to be as a resource, to be able to answer quickly that thing. But above all, I feel that from the beginning to we have to do an effort we have to make an effort to make the boards feel like they're empowered like this. Interesting. Everybody I'm not the first one to have said this, this is true. But to say this kind of thing about what's the explaining what the lines are and explaining the value of what their contribution, their professional contribution really means and why that's why that's important. I think I, you know, there's no, there's never going to be one size fits all on things, but I really do think that that that creating that culture I think that's the best thing the way to be able to is, is you've got to really be very incentive, sensitive and insistent on on creating a culture that is very grateful and thankful. And, you know, gently, gently are enforcing to to to board directors and saying, please let us know, help us help us understand this. Let's help us think this out. Yeah. I want to make a point there and I don't know if it answers your thing like this but it's popped in my head that I feel like if I don't get it out and I forget it, but I have yet to met a board director who's passionate about doing the minutes. It doesn't happen. I've met a board director who's passionate about making, you know, 10 fundraising calls. Yeah, I know that that's a bit of a, you know, in the US, for example, it's really, really big but that's not the main reason why somebody does this kind of thing. Well, I was going to ask does it fall on governance right like does it really all tie into board governance that fiduciary agent and Julia, you know, for me, same same as Mark one size is not always fit all most board meetings are open, which technically means staff can come to them. You know, general public can come to them. I rarely see that happen. Very rarely see that happen. And what I really experience is it's usually that executive, you know, leadership team or the director level that are there as Mark mentioned, as a resource, you know, it's it's as a resource. I don't attend many meetings. I don't often speak right because right unless I'm asked a specific question or if I ask permission to add to something. And, and it's always, it's always a little different. You know, make a good point though about that aspect is yes the value of senior staff being involved in this. I think that's one of the real points it's it's sometimes a lot of the great decisions, even politics or whatever like that doesn't happen actually in the room it's off so it's offside. Oh yes, but that encouraging that that relationship of trust over time is what really makes that makes it important, but in line with that too. You also have to create safe spaces for board directors to feel like they're, they can talk behind the staffs for staffs back, and it's okay and ask the questions because this is here's the thing. While that's really valuable. The thing that I've noticed over the years which is really amazing because I've actually held focus groups with just with board directors and I told the executive directors said, with due respect you're not the problem. I want to I want to hear from the board directors. Right, Julia, Jared, I can tell you the dynamic is different. Yeah, I bet so dynamic because here it goes back to ego. Who wants to look like who wants to ever look or look or feel like they're stupid. Of course. Yeah, you don't realize what board what staff don't often realize is that you've got a unique advantage over the board they're not in this 40 hours a day. At most most of them come in a few hours like me I'm I sit on, I sit on the board of an international NGO Association, and I got with my busy family life and like this I got I set up set a few hours out. So once or twice every one a month to really immerse myself. Think reflect, and then I go to the board meeting. Yeah. That's, that's, that's very fair. So, so with that comes about there's a lot of stuff that I might not necessarily know all of the context around there, but that's not my job my job is largely to be able to be there and to provide big picture thinking like this and that's what board members are actually passionate about. So when that comes about and there's a situation that might come about, and you're not really sure board members will often go clap up. And they'll say because for a few reasons I don't want to look stupid. I don't want to look controversial. I don't want to look like a troublemaker. So back to ego. It's back to ego. You know as we wrap up today's time and unfortunately it's going really fast so that buzzer is going to hit us pretty quickly. Let's talk about you know, really. Well Julie or getting ahead of me is giving back and crafting that legacy so looking at you talked about this throughout you know the episode a little bit but how can we empower and courage our board members to really, you know, hone in on what is that legacy that they want to lead and what's our role mark as staff to to work with them on that. I think our role is to finally let's get past this this this this martyrdom kind of concept and and really embrace. Why does somebody do this. Why does somebody do this and give it to them and embrace this because if we started doing that, you create an environment that is inviting you create a culture that welcomes and gets the best talent. Some of the best board directors in my mind are some of the busiest. They're say there's some of them are a bit of a prima donna to they can be a bit of a prima donna there. And I see that in a positive way as well. So we've got to be we've got to be able to willing to and great embrace a bit more of a culture of the with them what's in it for me for being a board director. Yeah, we've got to start doing that in the recruiting process. Well, let's let's now pull up his slide. Tell us a little bit about the summit mark that's coming up as we as we wrap up because that is being held when that's coming up in the fall tentatively set for middle middle of September. This is our second. This is the site of nonprofit board directors. You can look us up at nonprofit board directors.org but here at nonprofits board summit.org. We still have last year's site up and you can still register your name in to be on the pre registration list to be invited to this last year's conference we attracted over 400 we had over 400 registrants from board directors only board directors only from around the world actually some of the leading experts like this where we went and we said frankly speaking to and diplomatically to the executive directors with due respect. Two things this you're not the problem. This is the place for your board to really double check their to double check their assumptions if it's correct. And from board direct executive directors as well we said send us your board because in the end, you're going to end up with a better boss. Stronger stronger. Well hey we just as you know or may not have known but we were just at AFP icon, we broadcasted live the nonprofit show is ready to hit the road so if you would like us to broadcast live from the summit. Please let us know we would love to be there and offer that opportunity to the board of directors it's fantastic what you're doing, and it is definitely needed so thank you. Thank you. Hey, I'm Julia Patrick I've been joined today by Jared run ransom the nonprofit nerd. Again, we want to thank all of our presenting sponsors who've been with us. Day in day out bloom orang American nonprofit Academy your part time controller nonprofit nerd fundraising Academy, the nonprofit Atlas nonprofit thought leader and staffing boutique. These are the companies and individuals that support our sector day in and day out as a daily live broadcast. They are with us to really spread the message of how to be more efficient in the nonprofit sector, and how to work together you know we have 1.8 million registered nonprofits in the US. Mark you're coming to us from Canada. I am indeed. Yeah. Do you know what that national number is. I have heard figures that as as anywhere from 24 to 20 to 50,000 there of course we're about roughly one 10th of the population of the US let's vote. About representative but when you think about it there's average board size about 10 individuals. That's a lot of people. It's a huge number and I think that's why you know when you just look at North America I mean the this is a big deal and we are having our own if you will, you know staffing crisis just in getting you know board representation so markets and great to have you here. Hi everyone, Jared ransom nonprofit nerd thank you my friend it's as always. It's great to have you here. Hey everybody join us back tomorrow is we have Friday as miss Jared ransom has coined it, where we have our ask and answer episode it's really the only thing we get to do this, and it's going to be a real barn burner I I'm amazed at the questions that come in. And so we will put those out and have that great discussion. As we end this episode of the nonprofit show we want to remind everyone to stay well. So you can do well we'll see you back here tomorrow.