 Hello and welcome to my career in data podcast where we discuss with industry leaders and experts how they have built their careers. I'm your host Shannon Kemp and today we're talking to Steve McLaughlin from E-Pon Technologies. With a robust catalog of courses offered on demand and industry leading live online sessions throughout the year, the Dataversity Training Center is your launchpad for career success. Browse the complete catalog at training.dataversity.net and use code DVTOX for 20% off your purchase. Hello and welcome my name is Shannon Kemp and I'm the Chief Digital Officer at Dataversity and this is my career in data. A Dataversity Talks podcast dedicated to learning from those who have careers in data management to understand how they got there and to be talking with people who help make those careers a little bit easier. To keep up to date in the latest in data management education go to Dataversity.net forward slash subscribe. Today we are joined by Steve McLaughlin the head of data at E-Pon Technologies and normally this is where a podcast host would read a short bio the guest but in this podcast your bio is what we're here to talk about. Steve hello and welcome. Hi thank you for having me I'm excited to be here. I'm so excited to be for you to be here. I'm excited to see you in person at EDW. A few short weeks. Yeah yeah it's it's gonna be great. I can't believe we're in person again for this conference it's been a while. It's so much better it's so much fun I love it so much it's like my favorite time of the year. So tell me you are the head of data at E-Pon Technologies to tell me about E-Pon Technologies what is it what is the company? Yeah so E-Pon is a business transformation consulting firm and we do that through really four different avenues three technical and one more strategic and those three technical avenues are data of course that's why I'm here big data geek product engineering which is more like custom application development and cloud infrastructure so we have a lot of DevOps and cloud developers and then kind of the glue that holds all of that together is our strategy and product practice so we typically come in all the way from early discovery we love getting to know a business and saying hey you know what is it you're trying to do before you even think about technology what are you trying to do what what things you trying to transform about your business and then how can we enable that and then our technical teams we hire experts who can hit the ground running and say okay great you know you're trying to have a faster time to market so we're going to help you move to the cloud in whatever ways and migrate off your old infrastructure and you know so on and so forth so it's a lot of fun I love it. I love that so so tell me then what do you do for E-Pon Technologies as the head of data you know what's your typical work week look like? Yeah that's a great question and I will say we do a lot of empathy interviews so as we're getting to know businesses we do interviews and one of my colleagues introduced this concept of explain what you do without using your title and that was one of those moments for me I was like wow people's titles rarely have anything to do with what they actually do on the day to day does it so you know really I think there's three things that my job entails and the first is overseeing delivery so you know all projects ultimately they roll up to me so if a client's unhappy or you know more often than not if a client's really happy that escalates up to me and I get to you know get to really revel and and enjoy that but ultimately I oversee delivery whatever that might look like if we need a little extra lift here you know whatever I can kind of jump in and help solve that the second piece is I oversee all the people management on the practice so all the managers report up to me and and sort of everyone's career paths and growth you know that all sort of rolls up to me and then finally the the strategy of the practice right what are the things we're going to focus on as we are learning in the marketplace and things are changing all the time what are we going to do what are we going to focus on what partnerships are we going to go after and and how are we going to stay competitive that way so that's really kind of my high-level you know ideal day-to-day in reality you wind up being kind of chief firefighter and that's a lot of fun I'm okay with that I love it so let me ask a little bit more to you know you have a you know cool department or organization developed are dedicated to data you know who works closely with the tech teams how does that work yeah yeah great question by and large our data practice is very technical so it's a lot of data engineers and data architects you know and then we kind of partner with our strategists to help lay out a vision lay out roadmaps for organizations but ultimately you know we don't want to do there's really two things we don't want to do but sometimes I think defining who you are by what you're not is beneficial the first thing we don't want to do is just hand over PowerPoint decks I'd be like okay we're done we're consultants and here's your PowerPoint deck okay that's part of it you know developing a strategy nor do we want to be and you know the traditional kind of commoditized staffing where it's like how many developers do you need okay three developers great we're gonna do that we really take this holistic we call it a team in a box the idea is hey they're one of your teams and they're holistic and they're going to come in and solve this and our sort of unofficial motto is from from discovery to delivery so the idea is we've got professionals at every stage of a project life cycle who can help envision it help you articulate what the business needs and why help you roadmap that out and scope what needs to be done and then a team of technical experts to actually do that so at the end of that you have a cohesive transformation we put metrics around it success measures to make sure that we've done that so that's what I love about it is I get to be a part of the entire process and it's just a lot of fun I mean you really can see tangible results and we start there right we start with what would make this successful how are we going to prove that we've done what we've set out to do and so that's kind of step one is what are the success metrics yeah I love it very important to establish yeah yeah well hey we're in the world of data governance right a lot of those things don't work sometimes and sometimes people jump in before they're ready you know when it works it's amazing and when it doesn't work people are kind of like yep that's how it goes so so tell me Steve you know is this when you were very young you know say six years old you know what was this the dream I'm going to be the head of data at UConn Technologies and manages massive organization and team oh definitely not no I was pretty sure I was going to be a Jedi when I was six I think that was the goal yeah you know maybe a fighter pilot but you know I think like a lot of folks in data I probably had a pretty circuitous route to where I'm at yeah maybe that's my generation and kind of older I think younger people people know what data is now and they're excited about it but I didn't even know what data meant when I was a kid so you know I I have an interesting way I got into and I think this is relevant to consulting since I'm in consulting now I was in a band and I put off college and we were touring so we were touring the country playing music yeah when we were I played guitar and I sang if you can believe it I'm you know I can kind of carry a tune but not so much anymore a little out of practice so unfortunately you're not going to get to hear me sing today but and so you learned so much then I was booking tours I was dealing with things as they came up you know constantly pivoting constantly repairing the van you know it's not we weren't we weren't making so much money that our band nice okay we had a van that was not good and I learned a lot about automobile repair in those days but you learn a lot about things that kind of impact you later so anyways after about two years of that we were kind of like you know we're like doing okay but we're not going to live we're not going to be the rolling stones right so we kind of need to figure out what we're going to do and I'd always like computers so I got into software development right and at the time that was kind of new and exciting people were you know the web was brand new in fact I remember you know we were using map quest and atlas to do our tours you know long before any of that existed so I got into software development my first ever job was doing practice management software for like hospitals and doctors offices and then I got this project that came down from our chief operating option he said they're asking for patient demographics can you build me a data cube and I was like I don't even know what that means I've never written a line a sequel in my life I don't know what a cube is you know and so I'm like sure I'll give it a shot and I think after a couple of weeks I remembered distinctly working on it and kind of seeing the results and having this epiphany where I was like whoa this is actually like the most important thing that companies could probably be doing right now and I you know I didn't have the words for it or the vocabulary for it that I have now but I remember that feeling of like there's so much information and insight that can be gleaned from this the software development I love it it's all my friends who are software developers it's awesome that's kind of just moving and manipulating data right like at the end of the day I just was like this is it this is so cool so shortly thereafter I found myself working for a very small consulting firm out here on the east coast and I worked with Dr. Peter Aiken so just learned so much so fast working with Peter but finally like all those concepts that I thought were really cool had voice and yeah just like drank from the fire hose and if you know Peter he's always willing to explain something he's always willing to teach so I feel very fortunate that I got that education with him so haven't looked back since both consulting and data my two loves so there it is I love that that's great I we yeah I interviewed Peter of course I knew Peter for a long time but he was one of the first guests on the podcast he's been doing a webinar series with us longer than anybody else many years ago I helped him I would introduce him on those webinars it was a long time ago so so um so what was your biggest lesson so far in your career as you've gone through these this journey into data yeah that's a good that's a great question I remember and I kind of alluded to it earlier and I think this is still a problem people talk about all the time you know these these heady concepts that data people get don't translate as well right so I kind of touched on hey sometimes data governance doesn't stick and I remember being frustrated with that I remember delivering a project to an unnamed government agency and it was hey this is what we think you need to do for data governance and one of the people in the room had his feet on the table and fell asleep and I'm like oh boy this is going nowhere yeah but then I was on this project with this wonderful woman named Sarah Willovit and and she had devised this way to really communicate the benefits of things down to a very granular level she had found a way to truly articulate value not just kind of say it and say hey this is valuable and in these kind of intangible ways she had found an amazing way to say no if we don't do this this is what it's costing us and if we do this this is what we're gonna save or earn or gain for every little project that's where she started and it it changed my whole philosophy on my approach to data management data governance it really to me was one of those just aha moments of like wow this is not just read it off a PowerPoint and execute this is about change management and it's about relationships and it's about proving this out and kind of grassroots you know growth for these programs so to me that I still think back to that project all these years back and I'm like that's my that's my guiding light are we doing that have we have we are we just delivering a power point or have we really showed people what this is doing for them and if we're not then it's not going to work yeah no and I love that story it's so true right because data isn't just numbers right it's just it's you know you really have to communicate you have to have the whole package yeah and that's hard to do and I think it's hard to really articulate the value again I think most data people like we just kind of get it intrinsically and we can say all day long this is really valuable this is worth doing it's about people process technology and kind of those platitudes that we fall back on because they do ring true for us but there's so much more to actually getting that inside other people's heads but there's probably an entire you know PhD in psychology for getting people to do data governance that would be interesting but I think that would be a good study I think we should that's right yeah let's do it you already here first data versity presents oh is there something that you did to hone that skill further yeah good question I think that just kind of comes part of the course with consulting you really kind of wind up learning what makes people tick and getting to know different personalities and you start to see some patterns emerging I remember you know not long after that project learning about things like Myers-Briggs and those types of things that I don't fully ascribe to all the time I but but they're really helpful as an exercise to be like okay let me think about what Shannon needs to hear to make sure that she supports this as opposed to Peter what does Peter need to hear to really support this and that is a thing I think about a lot you know as I'm helping my clients often internally sell many of these capabilities or concepts you know you have to really think about what's in it for people and how do they need to be communicated with and how do you kind of manage that relationship and communication so yeah I think that's one of those just over the years I've got better at it and something I think a lot about you know I try to be really intentional about that thought process I love that so tell me so you know so having worked with data for for a while you know and and having worked with Peter even you know what is your definition of data and how do you work with it we've kind of talked about that a little bit but maybe sure yeah it's a great question and you know it's one I think about a lot and philosophically I think you know you can you can get as as deep I guess as you really want to but to me I think 90% of businesses now are their data I just think that's the way it's it's maybe it's a little bit of like a ship of theses you know like people can leave but the business doesn't change or new markets can be entered but fundamentally what is a business besides all of their collection of data in its entirety and that that to me is actually pretty like eye-opening to think about and you know even down to a lawn care business like how do you do it how do you maintain your equipment who are your customers how are you marketing it just is the business now I really believe that yeah so you know without getting into hey data is information I'll spare our listeners that because they probably have their own ideas but to me I'm like businesses are data now they are and not everyone manages it well we all know that yeah yeah I don't know maybe that's a little too heady like to get into but I'm like yeah maybe just everything is actually data now in our lives it really is right I don't I think there's much we can't quantify anymore that's right yeah that's right um and I assume that you use it a lot in your own business as well oh absolutely yeah I mean you know we we try to make data driven decisions and we are a relatively small business so we have a lot of the same pains as our customers in some ways and of course in other ways we're far more advanced and I get the benefit being and consulting I see so many organizations right I get to see sort of the 30 000 foot view and my favorite thing is every single client I think I've probably ever had come at me with like man we've got these problems you won't believe and by the end of their explanation I'm like you have the problems that everybody has this is pretty widespread yeah there's a handful of organizations who have really you know raised the bar or you know really disrupted the way things are being done but those companies aren't coming to consulting firms and probably aren't listening to podcasts on how to do things better and I think that's 95 percent of organizations are just not there and many of the problems are really common yeah I we hear a lot of the same problems as well all the time sure people are trying to solve in our webinars and just general people reaching out that we need help with yeah you know the problems I mean there's a lot of solutions out there there's a lot of ways to approach it and this is where kind of coming back to what I was saying earlier I think in many cases you know we kind of know how to fix those problems but the challenge is bringing people along getting people to see that getting people to understand it and I know how frustrating that is for data people out there and their organizations who are like I know I'm telling you we got to do this I know this I can see the risks I can see the benefits of doing this I can see the risk for not doing this but so much of that that I think is missing from our practice in a lot of cases is that change management that relationship building yeah when clients now ask me hey who should I put in for a data government like find the most boisterous like affable friendly person you can find who's also bullheaded and is not going to take no for an answer but it's going to do it in such a way that you're like this person is my best friend and they're giving me some some hard advice because I think you got to have that kind of personality now to get that to stick yeah I think that's some great advice yeah I think it's so true I've seen you know those personalities work really well in data governance roles and as leads oh yeah definitely yeah definitely and you'll see him at data diversity a lot of times the people who are talking about where they've seen success you're like oh yeah I know how you I know how you're seeing success yeah you got it yeah yeah yeah absolutely so um so do you see the importance of data management and the number of jobs working with data increasing or decreasing over the next 10 years and why oh that's a great question I love that I love getting into predictions I think I think we'll see uh new jobs emerging um I think everyone wants in on the AI pie right now I think we will reach the plateau of productivity for that you know once the hype kind of dies down but it is useful it is being used right now it's amazing and people are forging ahead full steam without you know kind of doing some of the good foundational work of course so I do think there's going to be a place for data management I think some of the more technical roles may be taken over by low code no code you know AI driven solutions I don't think it's ever going to fully go away I think it's just going to see a little bit of a shift and abstract upwards a little bit what I do think we will see different is and hey I already said it data is the business I think every role increasingly is going to be more data-centric more data driven you know more um reliant on data and so I hate to use the term data literacy because I think it puts people defensive but I think every job out there is going to need to be raising the bar on data literacy and so I do think we're going to see an increase in that regard they might not be new roles or different roles but they're going to shift to where there's going to be a much more heavy reliance on data and that has to come with understanding so I think it's a bright future for data right I agree yeah yeah I don't disagree with anything you say I think we're seeing the same thing you know like you say we've seen so many companies try to stand up AI and machine learning and went oh whoops we forgot to prep the data oh whoops we need a data model whoops like oh we need to hire somebody who knows how to build data models you know we're seeing a lot of the yeah which is great which is amazing yeah we've seen it create jobs and create importance around data governance even yeah I think it will and I mean even internally you know as we were increasingly using AI tools you know I kind of had that wake up in the middle of the night moment I'm like oh my gosh we don't actually have an AI policy you know this was a couple weeks ago that's now solved but I kind of had that like oh my god that's just like slipped under the radar we got so excited about all this stuff but we don't you know so yeah you know so I do think there's everyone's so excited we're moving fast and that's great and you have to be careful right yeah yeah the other hot topic coming up is ethics right oh sure around the AI absolutely data ethics yeah so oh love it so what advice then would you give to people who are looking to get into a career in data management oh that's a great question I really think if you understand the the basics of data management and there are so many wonderful books and resources out there I have multiple copies of the dimbok in my house Robert Siner's books are so good you can learn the how but I as I already mentioned before I really think there's a huge piece on learning how change management works at an organization learning how to form those relationships and being really good at pushing your ideas in a way that resonates with people and that's that's harder I think to teach right but I think it's something you can improve on something you can learn and get better at and so I think that's a for some people a missing tool in the tool belt and that's my biggest piece of advice is data is the business and businesses are people and their relationships and if you want to move the needle there you got to learn how to navigate that space yeah I think that's the big life challenge right always for anything yeah yeah that's right I'm sorry I feel sorry for introverts and data management I know there's a lot of them I'm not an introvert at all but I sometimes sit back I'm like I bet that's really challenging to wake up and be like okay I gotta go make relationships yeah yeah for sure but it's possible we can do it it's very possible I I've known so many introverts who are so thoughtful and caring and form great relationships they just need to go home and be in silence for a couple hours to recharge after that exactly well Steve I would be neglectful if I didn't ask you know if somebody wanted to look up the services of EEPRON technology so how where would they go yeah great you know number one is EeponUSA.com of course our website we have a great LinkedIn presence we post lots and lots of blogs we just surpassed 430 blogs I think on various topics so a lot of great content out there you can also find me on LinkedIn I try to post really regularly when I'm not totally snowed under and hey I come to at least you know one or two diversity events every year so come find me let's let's chit chat about board games I'm a huge board game nerd so there's now a little group of us they get together and talk about all things board gaming at diversity events so oh I didn't know that how fun and just for everybody Eepon is IPPON.com that's right yep IPPONUSA.com perfect and I will get those links for me and we'll post it on the page of the podcast for everybody to to find you great thank you so much for having me there's been a lot of fun oh see you thank you so much I really appreciate you taking the time to talk with us today and to all of our listeners out there if you'd like to keep up to date in the latest in podcasts and the latest in data management education go to dataversity.net forward slash subscribe until next time thank you for listening to dataversity talks a podcast brought to you by dataversity subscribe to our newsletter for podcast updates and information about our free educational webinars at dataversity.net forward slash subscribe