 Hello, everyone. As I just mentioned, I am Jillian Bell. I'm the executive director at Sask books, which is the provincial association for book publishers in Saskatchewan. Welcome to our publisher needs panel discussion. I'm your moderator, and today I'm speaking from the Quapel Valley, which is the traditional homeland of the Nehuac, Nakota and Anishinaabek nations. It's also the homeland of the Métis nation. We're going to have about a 30 to 40 minute panel on publisher needs as they pertain to accessibility, followed by about 10 to 20 minutes of Q&A, depending on how much time we have left after the info dump. The needs of publishers are complex, evolving and numerous. They are also varied, depending on the size of the publisher, the region in which they operate, the resources at their disposal, the knowledge and expertise of their team and many other factors. Our panel today will broadly discuss what publishers need in order to be able to improve the accessibility of their publications and how these needs can be met. So before we begin, I would like to invite our panelists to introduce themselves. Let's start with Deb Nelson. Good afternoon, everyone. Nice to see you. I'm Deb Nelson, the CEO of eBound. I've been with eBound for about four years now. But my whole professional life has been in education. My first 20 years was working with Pearson Education in the K-12 space, helping create educational content, but also to implement technology to support teaching and learning. So at eBound, as most of you know, our goal is to support publishers. That's our mandate, to support them, develop their capacity to help them develop digital content and to sell and market digital content. So I'm excited to speak with all of you today. Thank you, Deb. Let's go to Shantel Rado. Hi, everyone. I'm Shantel Rado. I'm joining from Halifax, Nova Scotia, which is in Magma, the unceded and ancestral territories of the Magma peoples. I'm the manager of programming and member services at Atlantic Publishers Marketing Association, or APMA. We represent over 30 publishers across the four Atlantic provinces, Nova Scotia, Newfoundland, New Brunswick, and PEI. I've been here for about four years now, which actually really coincides with the timeline of the Accessible Digital Books Initiative. So I've been able to work closely on the two accessibility projects that we've completed at APMA so far and will be heavily involved with one that's just kicking off now. Thanks. Thank you, Shantel and Kieran. Hi, everyone. It's good to be here and see at least all your names, if not your faces. I'm Kieran LeBlanc, Executive Director of the Book Publishers Association of Alberta, and I live in Edmonton, which is also Treaty 6 territory, and the traditional home meeting ground and gathering place and traveling route from of many peoples, including the Cree, Salto, Blackfoot, Metis, Dene, Inuit, and Nakoda Sioux. I've been with the BPAA, as we call ourselves, for 13 years this month actually, and have been involved in the Accessible Publishing Space for about six years, starting with the production of Accessible Audio Books in a partnership with CNIB, and then more recently in the last three years, through the Accessible Digital Publishing Initiative through the Canada Book Fund. Thank you, Kieran. We'll jump in, not dipping our toes, we'll jump into our first topic. The question I'd like to pose to you first is, what are the biggest barriers for publishers who want to create born accessible ebooks. And let's start with Deborah. For the purposes of this question, I'm going to speak as an observer of publishers, not being a publisher ourselves. I would say that there are three high level barriers. The first one is the reason for accessible content. Why is it important for us to have accessible content? What is it? What does it look like? And what is the business model? Well, I must say that the NEL Summit, this accessibility summit, has gone a long way down the road of what is accessible publishing and why is it important? And I think that the NEL staff yesterday going through the tester sessions were just, I mean, that opens the eyes to how accessible content is great for some and necessary for some, but good for everyone. That is a barrier, but I think it's becoming less and less so of one. The second one would be our Canadian capacity for large scale conversion work. Currently, eBound manages thousands of titles annually and we outsource outside of Canada, and for the most part, outside of North America. Canadians are not yet in a position to be able to compete timeline-wise, cost-wise or quality-wise with offshore companies. As Canadians, we really want to keep our capacity and our employment in Canada, so I do see that as a barrier to sustainability and scalability. And the third one is just the whole, understanding the whole accessibility ecosystem. Having content is just one part of the equation, the most important part, but unless we have, like, reading devices that will allow content to be consumed in the ways that our community needs. And unless we have, like, vendor sites that expose metadata, all of our accessible content can get lost. So those are the three barriers in my opinion. Thank you. Karen, what's your take on this question? Sure, so I focus more in my comments here about the realities for publishers in their publishing houses, so maybe more of a weed perspective. So one of the challenges is learning how to adopt their workflows to incorporate the creation of accessible files, including the addition of accessibility, accessible metadata. And within that, the changing kind of standards or aspects, different sources of information have different advice or standards that they would like to see publishers working towards. So keeping on top of that and figuring out how to incorporate all of that would be a challenge. For those that are producing their own ebooks in house, of which there are very few, at least of my members, figuring out how the additional work required can be sustained with limited resources. Most of our publishing houses are really tiny. And this is especially an issue when working with some of the more complex books that might have a lot more images that need to be dealt with or we have a graphic novel publisher. Here in Alberta and that's a big challenge for them. And then keeping up with the changing and evolving standards for accessible books. There are many resources available, lots of information and we've learned a lot through this process. But it's time consuming to have to research and try to seek out all the information that's out there. So having a one stop shop would be great. And then my last point was again around the reading systems and I was very encouraged to hear the panel before this one about the work that they're doing to keep up with system requirements that can provide seamless access to accessible books. And I think that's the most I've heard from the reading system developers and maintainers so I was very encouraged to hear the work that's being done there. Thank you Karen. Chantel, what do you hear from your publishers out in the Maritimes in terms of their needs and challenges. Sure. Yeah, I mean there's a lot of crossover I think between what what Karen be hearing we also have have a graphic novel publisher and publishers who who mainly published children's picture books so it's been really great to hear a bit more about fixed format. During the summit but I think, you know in general just conversion and accessible ebook production, especially for so many small teams and small publishers, still time consuming and still requires a lot of support. So the the one stop shop that Karen mentioned that's also been a big request from the publishers that I work with as well and I'm really excited about what Deb's going to talk about in a bit with with the solution that ebound is proposing for that I think that's going to be being able to address this, what we've been hearing a lot of just the overwhelming amount of information that's available and being able to filter through that and find what you need when you when you come up against a specific problem in a specific book. Yeah, and of course the the concern of once you have these accessible ebooks, the question of where to promote sell make them visible make them discoverable as accessible ebooks is a really big question for for the publishers here right now. Thank you. That's actually a great segue into the next question, which is, what are some of the resources and projects that publishers can access which can help them now. Deb, did you want to start us off. Yes. Thank you. And just just a little bit of a spoiler alert, this is going to sound like an ebound commercial, but our job is to be a one stop shop for publishers. The types of services that ebound is are offering right now are conversion services to types of conversion services. Independent publisher conversion services whether they want to create accessible digital content of their front list or backlist. We're also working with numerous associations from across the country to have large collections of backlist converted into digital format very quickly. So that is sort of like looking today and backwards because the benefit certification process starts with now going forward. So the benefit certification process is one which certifiers work with publishers to meet them where they are with the understanding that each workflow is different. So the certification process provides customized service and guidance to help publishers tweak and and change their workflow so that it will consistently and reliably produce content that meets standards. And again, it's a four fee service but DCH is making this available free of charge to ebound clients which is a wonderful opportunity. The only cost is sort of the human hours of effort cost that it'll take to actually learn and implement the suggestions. And we are actively looking for publishers to participate in that so if you'd like to find out more please do do get in touch with us. And then as Chantel talked about this one stop shop. So the landscape research report that I referred to yesterday commissioned by ACP clearly stated that Canadian publishers wanted a trusted spot to go to to help them where they are, right when they needed it. So again, two components it'll have content, but we want to have we want to set up an environment that acts somewhat like a teacher's office hours would. So if there's a publisher that is working on, I don't know, talking to their authors about alt text creation, and they need that information right now. So there would be a live person on the other end of the phone of the chat line or the email that would connect them with specifically the content they wanted. But in the way they wanted it do they want to watch a video, do they want to best practices guys, do they want examples. Do they want checklists, do they want how to so not only are we getting customizing for the situation will be customizing for the learning style or a particular need. Along with that, because we want to leverage and sort of capitalize on all the work that the very committed publishers have done the people that are really serious about accessibility that said they want to share they want to mentor they want to talk to their colleagues and help them. So if we can take the people that have already gone down the path and connecting with the people that are still on the path that is that is a great way to capitalize on Canadian capacity build community, and just get a deeper understanding of, you know, how the cadence of this this ecosystem works. So the fourth thing is, you don't even have to have a specific accessibility question, just just call us because we'll help you find the answer and if we don't have it, we'll connect you with someone that does. I think that was an awesome commercial. Thank you. You guys, you're doing great work at ebound. Thank you. Karen and Chantel same question what are some of the resources and projects that you are working with or have come across in your service to publishers that can address some of these hurdles in reaching accessible content. Um, I can jump in, and I would say two of the best resources we have in Alberta for our members are ebound so I'll give you a shout out to supplement your commercial debt, but also K Rollins who's in our room here today who's been the project manager and she's been the one who's walked through the weeds with publishers in terms of figuring out all the various intricacies and details and things we didn't even know we didn't know, you know, going through this process. Some of the things that we've done. We've had really regular communication with our members so lots of back and forth as they go through the process of either remediating or editing their mediated files. We have a members only page on our website which is populated with a whole bunch of resources that pertain to accessible publishing. We created a Dropbox folder which we've shared with some of our partners across the country who are engaged in this work and continually add content to that folder so that everybody has access to it. And we've produced a couple of YouTube videos on accessible metadata, which are on our private YouTube site but I'm sure we could share if anyone's interested. So just trying to make it simple I guess for publishers to find what they need in kind of that one stop shop so we've been trying to be that for members. So I'm really encouraged and excited about your initiative dev with the know the publishers knowledge forum. And it's Chantel here. I'll talk more on some of the creative and innovative projects our publishers have come up with to try and explore that question of marketing sales and discoverability. From 2015 to the end of October last year we partnered with New Brunswick Nova Scotia and Halifax public libraries on a project funded by the Canada Book Fund accessible books initiative. So we promoted a collection of 140 books published in Atlanta Canada in English and French. They were EPUB three they had accessibility features we did have a range of accessibility features which did cause some issues which we have definitely learned from that will be addressing our future projects, but it was a range of of books in EPUB three with accessibility features that we promoted on the public library platforms overdrive and Prenumeric in New Brunswick. So the books were available. We had a per circulation licensing model so they were available simultaneously to all public library users with no holds or wait list through overdrive Libby and Prenumeric. We promoted the collection as local as accessible, really highly promoted on both of those vendor platforms with the book hero spot at the top of the overdrive and Libby page with the collection bumped up to the top with a rotation of featured titles. We'd really hope to align with overdrive timeline on their accessibility updates. We did have to be delayed a few times to try and align with that but ultimately we did have to launch before their major text to speech update. So we also had the books available in collections on the NELS and CELA platforms. One of our main goals was to research some of these major distribution channels that were used for ebooks and public libraries to try and reach a wide range of readers and Canadian public libraries and test the impact of measures to increase the visibility and discoverability of accessible ebooks. We did see really good success. We had over 24,000 boroughs and we will have a report that we'll be able to share with the industry soon. We're still working on some data analysis but that will be ready in the spring. And then now we're moving into a new project also funded by Canada book funds initiative. Also looking at new sales channels for accessible digital books this time in the health care sector with a project called books by heart where we'll work with NELS and with a Nova Scotia hospitals technology unit to pilot a collection of accessible digital books for staff, patients, family and caregivers with free unlimited access to the collection. There will be hospital owned devices as well as a platform which we've yet to determine for external devices so that everyone can read and share together the hospital will also be doing their own research on the impact on patient mental health and wellness. So, try to sum those up really quickly they're both really big projects but happy in the Q&A if anyone has any more questions about those. I love that project with the where you're partnering with with the hospitals I think that's really really cool. Thank you, Chantel. And that is, again, you're great at segues. So, that brings me to the question about, we've talked a little bit about how publishers can best market their accessible books and how to really crack that nut of discoverability as it comes to, as it pertains to accessible content. So, you've, you all three of you have talked about some of the projects that you have undertaken, generally with the support of the $22 million committed from the Department of Canadian Heritage for this kind of work. And now that we're just past the halfway mark on that on those projects, can you talk about some of the lessons you've learned over the course of your projects that you've worked on. So, Karen, I'm going to go backwards this time from who I see on the top of my screen. Lessons learned. Wow. Well, there have been a lot of lessons learned. I think one lesson learned was, we were actually the first association I think to take on one of these projects. And so we had a very steep, steep learning curve we kept saying we were inventing a wheel that kind of felt like we were. And so one thing that was really helpful. We ran into some issues around accessible accessible metadata and different standards and different requirements and different sources of information. I think Mays, I think she's here. Yes, she is from the Canada Book Fund. Pull together quite a significant number of us. I think we were over 24 people at a zoom meeting talking about accessible metadata. And so the lesson learned there was when we worked together with other associations and organizations doing similar work. We were able to get to answers and get information a lot more quickly than when we were doing it all by ourselves here in Alberta, just trying to figure it out. So I think that's a really important lesson. I think there's a lot of brain trust in in our country for sure. And so working together with other colleagues and associations is a is a big, big advantage and one that I think we should take advantage of more. Deb, what are some of the challenges that you have found and and tackled through the course of your projects. A couple of things is this specifically with discoverability or is it just in the whole process of creating accessible content would you like me to speak to. I like the idea of going big and then focusing in if we need to with some of the questions after. Yeah, yeah, for sure. So I think there is, you know, I think we all are optimistic when we start new challenges or new projects and we always underestimate the amount of time that things are going to take. I think I've learned the hard way that if you say it's going to take a month is going to take three months and if you get your head around that you've got a realistic chance of achieving your goal. I think people sometimes get frustrated because the amount of time it takes for their effort and input to be recognized. And in the meantime, some people lose capacity and or lose staff and thus capacity. So staff turnover is also an issue. I think that if we shift around to the area of discoverability and metadata, I think we're learning that having peace a piece of the puzzle isn't good enough. All metadata has to be available. All metadata has to be complete. You can have the best descriptions but if you don't have a cover, your book isn't going to show up on sites. So I think we need to keep our eye on the whole around metadata and discoverability when we're focusing on just the accessibility, because as I said, having part of the puzzle isn't going to help us. Thanks Deborah Chantel. Sure. Yeah, a lot of a lot of crossover with with both of those as well I think one big lesson we learned was, or I guess something that maybe just became more clear working through some of these projects is where some of the knowledge gaps are, and especially, I think it's been talked about throughout the day but especially with publishers who do have their ebooks created, have them outsourced created by a third party. We've really run into, you know, how do we address the knowledge gap in enabling those publishers to find out more information about accessibility of those files and empowering them to be able to negotiate with those vendors and and being able to have the knowledge and the right things to ask for. So we started our library project quite early on talking about delays we definitely that was another lesson learned Deb put it really well you think it will take one month it will take but yeah we we didn't we started that right at the beginning, so there was still you know the certification hadn't started yet. And we were asking publishers to self identify the accessibility of their files and so we ran into a lot of knowledge gaps there. We have 140 books so so auditing each and every one of them would have been very time consuming, but then we did run into problems with not being able to self identify the accessibility of the files completely and you know some of them having some issues that we didn't really know how to navigate. So, um, yeah that that's one very specific one to talk more broadly I guess, like you asked Julian as well. We did do a survey of our publishers and specifically asked about metadata. It is a year old now so I think you know things are quickly changing, especially with everything we've talked about related to metadata in the summit already today but when we surveyed 20 of our publishers only five were adding accessibility to the data, then and only two of them knew if their vendors were displaying it so it was a was one of the smallest numbers out of any of the questions that we asked. So I think we are, we are seeing that moving in the right direction, as we've heard a lot about today but definitely still a long way to go there. It's really interesting that your publisher, some of your publishers are tracking how their metadata gets used along along that supply chain I think. I think that's that's a really an important piece that again I think I think it was Amanda in the metadata discussion earlier today, who was talking about just not knowing, not knowing what happens when you have your metadata feed and just sort of hoping for the best so that that's really good information. So, I'd like to touch a little bit on the group effort that all of you have mentioned, and the question that I'm noodling around right now is, what do each part of a publishing team. What does each of my grammar what does each part of a publishing team need to know need to bring to the table in terms of accessibility and publishing creating those born accessible documents. What are some of the differences between what sales and marketing need to know versus editorial versus your, your legal teams. How do you even begin to tackle that Chantel let's start with you. I think we've, we've heard a common thread that so many. So many of the publishers that we work with are such small teams. So it's, it's sometimes hard to think about a team that actually does have different people in each of those positions, although there definitely are some some bigger publishers represented. But I think just to call back to something that came up in one of the earlier sessions about authors, providing image descriptions, I know this is something Nels has been recommending for a long time but just anecdotally just even in the past few weeks I've talked to some of our publishers who have actually having that be integral to the process. So it's maybe taken a long time to work that in, but in the editorial process and in the author contract, having that be built in has has been a recommendation for a long time and it's maybe taken a bit longer to adopt but I definitely have seen it from publishers from the very small size to the bigger sizes starting to implement that. Yeah, I'll pass over to Karen maybe for the next. Sure, and I think I'll carry on with your thread Chantel about the alt text one of the things that we needed to determine early on in the project was who was going to be creating the alt text for the titles that we were going to be remediating and I'm sure to us that we couldn't even ask that question because we didn't even know what was involved. So, one of the early PD sessions that we held, which was part of our, our funded partly by the grant that we got through the Canada publishing, there was an alt text training session which, which really helped publishers understand what was involved and the different levels of complexity, and realistically could they get their authors to provide the alt text, depending on the type of book that they're publishing. So, that was an important part of our project was the educational process. So, around the accessible metadata helping publishers understand what that is how to display it how to track it, and what standards they should be aspiring to, when they're doing that. Thanks Karen and Deb, how about you. You have a different perspective and I like it. Yeah, a different perspective. I've never been on the sort of ebook or book production side in my experience in my, you know, many years in publishing, but I do know that that each stakeholder, whether it's one person representing many stakeholders or many stakeholders in the process, all have a responsibility and an input into making a book accessible, making it more discoverable, make it more marketable and more sellable. Having said that, I hear time and time again, especially from our benetech certifiers that I mean, even if you're doing half of what's required to meet the ultimate standards, you're making better content you're making a better ebook, which means that the end user will have a better content consumption experience. So, although there's lots to do, starting and starting the journey really does have an impact. So, encourage people not to get frustrated and just do start with one thing, because one thing is good. There are shirts that have some of these great quotes from you guys I think that would be the organizers of the accessibility summit we should have inspirational shirts that say just do one thing. That's awesome. And Jill, I'm going to jump in because I didn't answer the question I realized I went off on a tangent. So the answer to your question. We have relatively very small publishing houses, and everyone on the team is engaged in accessible publishing it touches every one of their desks. And so it's an all hands on deck kind of view to publishing, which they, they're all engaged in. So, now I answered your question. And I think that is the kind of thing that it would be great to see that across the board to have every, every hand that touches part of the, the, the book that it's being created every eye that looks at that manuscript. Keep in mind and understand what those accessibility features are and to work together. So, I want to we've got, we've got about four or five, well maybe even 10 minutes we'll see. And I want, I want to really get at some of the things that you're excited about in the future, as it pertains to accessibility in publishing and I'd like this to be a really open ended question I think when we dream together magic happens. So, I'd like to start with Chantel and what are some of the things that are that you're really excited about that that you can see our positive, really forward moving aspects of what we're talking about. Sure, I mean I think the two projects that I mentioned are kind of getting at what we're excited about and what also we're really hoping for. I think on the library project, you know, really hoping and excited about the possibility of the, the main library platform, the overdrive Libby app, the preliminary platform, being able to have publishers accessible be tagged as accessible on those platforms this you know the same reading experience being able to have the platform be accessible with with those texts to speech and other updates that are coming and being able to just have that main sales channel be able to have the metadata visible have the book promoted as accessible have that be a sales channel for publishers for their accessible ebooks. On the same thing with the books by heart project, you know really excited about finding new sales channels for accessible ebooks, thinking about, you know, the, the, the audience for those ebooks the hospital staff patients, family, thinking about, I think someone, maybe it was Lars, or I think Charles who mentioned in one of the earlier sessions about, you know accessibility, improving the reading experience for everyone thinking about people who might be in that group of staff patients family who have print disabilities, and also other physical needs after having heart surgery where a text to speech or an audio book is extremely valuable to have for your reading experience. So just really having having it be not just a separate, a separate platform or a separate experience but being able to have it as part of these main, main channels and also exploring new sales channels is something that we're really excited about here. Thank you. What are some of your big dreams for the future of accessible accessibility and publishing. Well, I must say, after two days of this summit, I'm feeling more excited about our ecosystem. And someone said it really succinctly before the this summit and I just wrote it down because it stuck with me it's like an accessible book in a non accessible system is a lost book. And after hearing about accessible metadata that's going to be exposed to a number of different vendors legible being one of them it sounds like Cobos coming moving in that direction to that that is really exciting because I think that as soon as one does it then the competition starts and that's great in this type of environment. And just hearing about the commitment and the innovation around the readers, which is the third part third leg of the three legged stool of our ecosystem. You need the content, you need the readers and you need the exposed metadata on vendor sites. And I'm feeling optimistic that we are set up for success, particularly with the DCH funding. After hearing the international perspectives this morning. I think we can all feel pretty lucky that we've got a government that is giving us what we need, not just money wise, but timeline wise and runway wise to do this if we want. Set up for success. That's great. Karen, tell me all about your dreams for the future. Keep it to publishing. Okay, I'll try and learn myself. So, what I'm encouraged about. I'm not sure it's a dream but what I'm encouraged about in working through this, this process for for a few years now is seeing publishers be able to create accessible files from the start so then it doesn't become yet another project that it becomes part of the workflow and part of the natural way of publishing a book so that that's where I'd like to see it, you know, keep moving so that we're not imposing if you will, the requirement to have to create a whole bunch of books but they will just be published in an accessible format from the start. So that's that's one thing I'm encouraged about and I want to just say the will have over 600 titles that have been converted in Alberta through the funding we receive from DCH. Those will be available through the library systems here because we have our read Alberta ebook project. All of the accessible files are swapped in for the former files so they'll be available through all of libraries here so that actually makes me excited. That's an incredible project I know you've worked really hard and it's it's been a big learning curve for you but I'll tell you, we are very jealous and Saskatchewan. So, okay, thank you for for sharing your knowledge and your excitement and your challenges. I'd like to take this opportunity to open the floor to our participants to ask questions. I can see you in the chat, and if you raise your hand I think I'll be able to see you, maybe also do an interpretive dance. That will help. Don't everybody ask it once oh yeah Kate. Hi Jillian. I don't know if this is so much a question but it's a thought that's come to mind just in the last few remarks but that the panelists have been making that they might have some reflections on. And it links to something Debra said earlier about opportunities for mentorship and peer to peer learning and it. I've been thinking or reflecting sort of on progress made in the last year and it feels like there's a lot of momentum building and we now have a roster of companies that are benetech certified and to Karen's point about books that are accessible from the industry. And I guess the question is, it's like how do we harness that energy from the early adopters and maybe share that knowledge and an expertise across the entire industry where where are their opportunities to build on that and and keep things moving in that direction. Thank you that that was Kate Edwards from the Association of Canadian Publishers sorry Kate. Thank you Jillian I forgot to introduce myself apologies. I think that's a great thought and question Kate. And it occurs to me that actually the ACP is a natural conduit. Not that I want to put another project on your desk but in terms of communicating and making resources available to Canadian publishers most many most of whom are members of the ACP. I think the regional associations have become a really good resource as well. And so whatever we can do to collaborate and share knowledge and success stories I guess would be one idea. I see Shane Silver has a question or and or comment take it away Shane. It's a really different topic but thank you Jillian. You know a question and it's actually I guess Sean tell and Karen mentioned a couple things around ebooks accessible you books being available through the library system. Very encouraging. Wonderful news. What about audio books. Are those also now being made available through the libraries in the Atlantic and through Alberta, or is that something that's maybe a next stage. The audio books that our members have produced are all available through the libraries. Some of those books were produced outside of the accessible publishing program or project. And they're working on remedying, remediating those to make them accessible but all of the books that we've produced in partnership with Robert at the CNIB are produced an accessible format first. That's all in the Alberta libraries. I'm Sean tell here for our publishers who have created audio books they've made them available to the public libraries and the public libraries, you know audio books. They're always looking for a more local audio books because we do have many more ebooks than we have audio books so most, or many of them have been purchased by our library systems here. And our, our big library program that we talked about 140 books those were ebooks, our new project that we're working on now will include audio and ebooks but taking into consideration what's been talked about earlier in the summit about this, the question around the standards for audio books still being a bit more vague is is one consideration there but we are definitely including both ebooks and audio books going forward. Great, or if there are any, we've got a question from Anna Lupinio Luponio I'm sorry Anna if I've murdered your name in the chat and it's a question for Deborah. You mentioned that a lot of the large scale conversion work must be outsourced and this could be a sustainability issue for accessible publishing in Canada. Could you expand more on some of the issues that limit our domestic capacity is it a labor shortage of people with skills or a physical capital issue. Yeah, really, really good questions and I think it's a multi tiered challenge, I think that the capacity is not there yet. And just the number of people that understand how to create ebooks is really a growing capacity in our system publishers are feeling that systems are feeling that. So it is capacity. It's also unfortunately it's a pricing issue and in Canada we pay people more than other countries do with same capacity same education. So when it comes down to it when we have had Canadian conversion partners putting you know their hat forward, and they were more expensive. It's a timeline issues, even if they did have people that could, you know, develop ebooks they couldn't do it within reasonable timelines so you need to think of, you know, quality, you need to think of price, and you also need to think of timelines when you're looking at managing projects in that scale. So, yeah, it's, it's a challenge but it, I think it's a, it's a solvable challenge. So a number of organizations have been looking at a business case around that which always starts with like defining the market so what is the market and how sustainable is that market. And that's kind of a murky market to, to actually get your, your arms around. So, I think the opportunities do lie with working with like higher education institutes, you know, if we can get graduates coming out with accessible ebook creation ability, I mean that would be that would go a long way to staffing both conversion Canadian conversion partners and the needs of Canadian publishers. Thanks Deborah, I, I would like to see the book that is called the Canadian publishing industry and the very murky market. That's all I'm going to say about that. We are with one minute until we have to rejoin the main room so I want to thank you all very much for taking the time to present to us. I want to thank all of the people who've come to this breakout session. And I look forward to chatting with you all next year to see how you've realized your big dreams. Thank you very much.