 our series this year that we have relaunched and very pleased to be welcoming you and we have set the recording just because lots of people have asked for recordings and if that's okay with everybody we will we have now our YouTube channel so we will make it available hope that's good with everybody. In terms of just a bit of housekeeping if you're more familiar with Zoom or Teams although I think most of your work that now the access panel is in the bottom right corner we encourage you to contribute in the chat if you've got any questions but indicate with a queue also at the end when we will launch into a Q&A session you can use your raise hand and also unmute your mic and and pose any questions for that if you notifications bother you you can use the settings on the bottom right corner but that's really it hopefully yeah that will be okay and I think this is really my queue to welcome Professor Armalini, Virginia Tahira Antunas and Rob Howe who will talk about the student voice on active blended learning so over to you Theo we look forward to hearing from you. That's great thank you very much Tundi thank you for introducing us so good afternoon everyone I'm Rob Howe head alone in technology and as Tundi actually said we've also got Virginia and Ali on the call as well we're going to be talking about some research that we've actually done at Northampton. In terms of the the chat it will keep people muted for now and then later on there's a chance to actually ask questions okay so first thing just a little bit of institutional context just around Northampton University of Northampton so back in 1261 original University of Northampton four years later that was dissolved then we became a technical college then became NEN college we got university college status full university status 2005 and we've got around about 12,000 students 1500 staff across three different faculties in 2014 we had a move to active blended learning as a new pedagogy and it's actually taken quite a few years for that to actually settle into into the institution itself but around active blended learning we actually developed a new campus so this is our water side campus and you're welcome to look at it online and then obviously a little bit later on you can visit us later in the in the year brand new campus so 330 million pounds spent actually in terms of developing it and we've now been a few years in and we've been rolling out active blended learning as part of one of the cores really of being actually at water side itself so in terms of changes that were actually going on at the time quite a few different dimensions actually going on there we were looking this is round about that sort of 2014-2015 time period we were looking at those three core elements particularly we're looking at graduate attributes we were looking at the assessment review and we were looking at active blended learning so the the graduate attributes we were looking at ethically driven graduates for the assessment review we were looking at our outcomes consistent we're early with being in a 21st century and actually blended learning which is really what the focus is today it's focused very much on this this scalable learning and teaching and we'll say a little bit more really about what active blended learning is we had an institutional definition and you can see the definition obviously on the screen at the moment and there's some key parts actually inside that so we've got sense making activities you've got focused student interactions with all of the sort of the key agents that are actually as part of that process and includes both in and outside the classroom as well in terms of what AEBL actually means we've got a few you know four bullet points really about what the key thing is so we've got particularly we've got activities so students learning through these activities we've got subject knowledge and applying that actually for their professional skills plenty of feedback digital fluency and really some flexibility as well in relation to to time and place more generally in terms of what it actually means for a course so a course sort of follows that if it follows those those three sort of core sort of principles and we've got those on our Institute learning and teaching website actually at Northampton in terms of just building that up then there's a number of key elements that actually go towards a session that is actually running with with ABL so you have the pre-session sense making activities you've got the embedded content and resources there you've also got real-time sessions particularly webinars at the moment but obviously we face-to-face sessions and through those you've got a whole mix of different question and answer sessions you've got discussion sessions and various analysis that actually goes into that generally and then after the session itself you have consolidation you you reflect on the event itself so if we put that in a sort of a broader context all of that is the the three sort of green circles really are the the scaffolding for what we're actually talking about the the two at the sort of the the 12 o'clock and the the 7 o'clock position those are tend to be tutor moderated and most of that is asynchronous actually in terms of the way it's actually delivered the one on the the right hand side sort of the five-clock position that is more about being tutor facilitated and it's more about synchronous and it's not about delivery at all it's about the interaction actually with the students at the time so for Northampton active blended learning obviously was a really core change actually in the way that we were doing some of our learning teaching and it builds on the the strengths I think that a lot of our academics were already doing at that time as you'd expect with such a a major pedagogical change evaluation was very much important as part of that process so what I'm going to do now is to pass on to to Virginia to go through some of the questions particularly that we wanted to focus on and what we want to focus on really as part of today. Thanks Rob so as part of this evaluation process that we've done for several exchanges that the university went through we've conducted a study on the students and we were kind of focusing on two main questions which was their perceptions of their own experiences within ABL and what kind of enables and barriers could they find to have quality and successful learning experiences so that guided our study and this study was a two-stage study at the start we focused on the tutors and we did a wide range survey and then we narrowed it down to some tutors that were willing to have in-depth interviews with us and from those we asked to have access to some of their students the idea was to have a bit of a background of what the tutors were actually doing in terms of their practice so we could understand students with responses a little bit better so we conducted focus groups with 60 students and we focused on things like effective practice what for them was effective practice how they felt their precession tasks were or not linked to their face-to-face activities and what they considered to be engaging learning experiences so then we did in vivo analysis so it was a qualitative study and in the in vivo analysis we had around 26 teams and we narrowed them down to the ones that we considered to be more saturated so the ones that appeared at least in four different focus groups in a number of times a significant number of times we then grouped this into three categories learning experiences social experiences and learning support which I'm going to go through more in depth so this one was quite a long one because obviously that's that was pretty much the focus was the learning experiences so we talked about we'd learn us about several things and we realized that they really value how their activities link theory and practice in the sense that it will give them better skills for employability they said pretty much the same in terms of assessment so that was a very key component of them was that they felt prepared for employability in terms of what they felt were engaging learning experiences while they talked a lot about being active and being engaged in activities within the face-to-face synchronous classes and all that and asynchronous they also related what they considered to be engaging a lot with what tutors were like in terms of their personal traits and personal characteristics so those tutors that were nicer to them and more engaging more social would make them feel more engaged in sessions this obviously means that there was a lot of variability in how their experiences were in terms of different tutors so from one session to another from one to another they would have different experiences and they were very aware of that they noted strongly that the use of technology was one of the areas that could be seen this variability because some tutors were using it in a creative way interactive trying to promote their engagement while others were using very limited namely true just the use of PowerPoints and this use of PowerPoint is interesting because for them those engaging learning experiences needed to be more than just being there and listening to someone read through a PowerPoint and they were very clear about that in terms of their pre-session tasks and how they linked with the face-to-face sessions they felt like they were great to promote for them to be able to engage better in face-to-face sessions but they really valued tutors that knew how to engage every learner every student even those that hadn't done the pre-session tasks so that was quite significant for them and the main reason for them to attend was to feel comfortable to feel that they would be engaged whether they had done the pre-session tasks or not and that they would be doing something in the in the synchronous session that would be more than just reading through PowerPoints so that was pretty much the core of this category and then the second category which is social experiences was quite quite important for them they started by discussing a lot of the communication within the sessions and how they valued tutors that that were open to questioning and that engaged them in discussions in the sessions and all that but they went further than that they said they they particularly valued valued those tutors that would talk to them about other stuff about their personal problems that were open to help them with even other subject areas or give them any range of support and communication and and respond to emails all of that so they talked a lot about tutors that were seen as going the extra mile for them that was an expression that they used a lot tutors that seemed to care and that made them feel more like partners in that learning and teaching experience so it was very important for them that they were engaged in the in the activities and that tutors made them feel not as believe them but at the same level and part of the whole process this is also seen a little bit on the third category learning support where it was very clear that learners students were expecting not only classroom-based support the the help with all of the like examples all of that but also they expected tutors to be available for them for further than that they the values to tutors that would meet them in the in the corridor and just say how are you why do you have that face and stuff like that so those were the tutors that they would engage more with and that was very clear in this research because those were the learner the students that kept that gave me more of their time that made sure they were talking as as much as they possibly could and instead of having 10 minutes of the focus group we had half an hour for example because they said well my tutor is amazing why wouldn't I do this for her which was quite interesting also the issue of employability comes back here because that support that goes beyond the classroom is also on a value for tutors that for example give them information about in terms that they can apply to conferences that so extra things that they don't necessarily need to do but that will help the students be more prepared in terms of employability so the key for this study was that we wanted to try to contribute in some way to this question of of the student engagement we know that in the sector this has been a long issue a long lasting issue so this study tried to really contribute to it and there are some ideas some data that we can withdraw from here that will kind of help in this mainly the idea of social interactions and the sense of belonging and how important it is and how important it is to foster that sense of engagement and belonging to the to the institution in general so in in summary basically what matters to learners is to students as learning experiences beyond the classroom they don't only want to be in that conscripted restricted space anymore they want to learn more than that and blended helps that to happen a lot tasks and assignments that link theory and practice so that they feel more employable that's the main concern as we know with students nowadays and the idea that because we now have blended the idea of going to a face-to-face session where you do just the reading of the PowerPoints is no longer enough and for them to go to that effort the those sessions need to have that added value of engaging them of giving them something that goes beyond just listening to to a tutor read so they very much highlighted the idea of how important the social interaction and communication were both in terms of synchronous and asynchronous interactions and that idea of tutors that go the extra mile particularly always connecting that with tutors personal traits like accessibility and sociability etc so what we have in this study is basically that tutors and students can and should be seen as partners that will engage students a lot more and digital technology and blended learning can work as a tool to blur those boundaries between the asynchronous and the synchronous the learning spaces the classroom and outside beyond the classroom and promote interaction both within and beyond the classroom so it's all about easing that's what digital technology works for in the students minds is to kind of help make all of these holistic experience of experience as a whole so we kind of conclude something that isn't our chattering but still is a significant that both the academic and the past pastoral support and and the relationships all of those are needed to provide these holistic learning and teaching experiences because just having quality learning experience is not enough anymore learn students expect more by doing that we can by giving them these holistic rich learning and teaching experience we will work on their engagement we'll increase and enhance interaction we enhance their feeling of belonging and then we work on those metrics that higher education is so concerned with like retention satisfaction etc so they are really important as an idea to take from there finally this is basically the summary of everything that we've been saying so far all of the little enablers of positive learning experiences this holistic learning experiences that go from the theory practice link to having those partnerships and having support that goes beyond the classroom all of that is really really important now one kind of unexpected value or impact of this study was that it informed the institution into how to deal with something that was also very unexpected which was the pandemic and the impact it had on provision so a lot of what we've done and and a lot of this ABL issue is going to help this institution and hopefully others into how to deal with the pandemic and Ali will now kind of discuss this topic a little bit and offer some reflections Ali up to you yes we'll do Hello everyone and thanks Virginia for that I think I'd like to use the last few minutes of this session to reflect on some of the things that Virginia and Rob elaborated on earlier and then move us on to the to this transition period where some some things might actually shape the future of the sector and the future of our institutions far beyond the the pandemic first however I think there is a need to stress the what Virginia said about activity development activity creation a lot of the time we see colleagues thinking that they are setting learning activities in preparation for next week sessions or as part of next week session or or in any context and they say well read this watch that come back with three key points and and I think while there is a place for that really we need to do better than that we need to think about our activity design in much more serious terms we have to be much more creative we have to push students in a way that the standard thing read this watch that come back with three points does not achieve we need to add value we know from data from this study and others that in order for a typical blended learning student to to attend sessions you've got to you've got to add value they will attend sessions that do that regardless of whether they are recorded or not if you add value in the classroom or in the lab or in the field or in the studio the students will be there because they see that they that those sessions move them on this notion of partnerships that Virginia and Rob spoke about they do not necessarily refer to formal things they refer to also to informal partnerships they they they they they refer to to links between groups of students and group of groups of staff that could be as simple as doing a mini formative task together over a period of a week or two weeks or whatever it is the students value these partnerships and I think many of my colleagues value these partnerships too and one final point before moving on to the transition is this what Virginia referred to as the big issue the the student engagement issue and I would put it to you that a lot of the problems around student engagement revolve around staff engagement and and it's it's not comfortable reading too many but but it is I would suggest that staff engagement visibility and the level of activity correlates with the engagement visibility and level of activity of the student in order to get them engaged we've got to be visible we've got to be seen to be engaging ourselves it's not a case of uploading the task uploading the material and hoping for the best we've got to be there all of the time and we've got to be there for them with them alongside them so as the 20th of March 2020 hit we had a situation across the sector we had issues to do with what are we going to do next week when we when we need to continue our courses but we can no longer use the campus and what this study would point to and others that that that were run alongside this one they point to an issue of pedagogy knowledge and understanding not so much about technology not in the case of Northampton but but but but certainly questions and answers of a pedagogic nature so the work done on active blended learning since 2014 at the University of Northampton put the university in a fairly favorable position to face the challenges of the last 12 months the level of the level of pedagogic understanding had increased as had the level of digital fluency across members of staff and across the student body over the previous couple of years we had started a laptop scheme students first year students were getting a laptop as part of the registration staff all got mobile devices all of that with a huge amount of training and development helped to improve all of those metrics to put us in a good position but I insist the primary element was pedagogic knowledge and understanding we need to think about a scenario from March 2020 of lower proximity and synchronicity and I'll go into that in a moment on the next slide the engagement and visibility of the tutor as I said before critical to generate engagement and visibility from the student and then of course key issues of autonomy with no campus to be used no people to that we were allowed to visit and the constant need to explore ways in which we can advance our digital fluency so if we look at that diagram we have a on the on the x-axis we've got high proximity low proximity so high proximity is very much a high face-to-face contact if you like low proximity is low geographical proximity on the y-axis you've got synchronicity so high synchronicity is real-time-ness low is asynchronous and bottom left quadrant would refer to our standard bread and butter activity for most for all campus-based universities so that's how a traditional campus offering top right is the traditional mostly asynchronous provision at a distance the interesting bits is are the other two perhaps and how we shifted from one section of this diagram to the other top left very important group of students those who are campus-based but because of covid have been working mostly asynchronously so trying to access the webinars the seminars the the lectures from the halls of residence or from home and bottom right is real-time provision for geographically dispersed students so so things like teams sessions zoom sessions or blackboard collapse sessions like today and then i'd like you to think about how our model shifted from march last year so i would put it to you that we moved our apologies for the quality of the slides not great when it converted to collab but the we moved from for campus-based institutions like mine we moved from the bottom left as our primary area with bits of the other areas with bits of the other quadrants but our main area bottom left we moved from there to there and and we have to understand what that shift means so we've got we've got to shift from traditional campus-based provision to something else and each institution had to figure out what that's something that something else looked like it wasn't always straightforward it wasn't easy and and we had lots of issues to address in relation to how our provision had to shift the the staff development that was required and we had to do that pretty much overnight so we we moved to a scenario where we had to cater for students who were based largely on campus but were accessing sessions asynchronously and students who went home completely and became de facto distance learners while they were part of a cohort that we did not want to lose the the key elements from so that is a central part of what happened as ABL developed into ADL or active distance learning if you like as I said years of experience with active blended learning turned out to be quite instrumental for this transition and what we did is we we put in place a range of staff development sessions from March 2020 the by far the best attended staff development session at that point March April May 2020 was one called lesson planning and in that session very short online session about 45 minutes and we went through the key the basic elements that constitute a good lesson plan a lesson plan for online teaching synchronous and asynchronous and critically the blend of the two we were in a good position because Northampton provides what we would call a future focused risk friendly digitally rich environment for the reasons I outlined before we were we were in a good place to push the agenda forward and to fill in gaps where we knew staff or students needed additional support the case of the case of lesson planning was a very was it was a typical example of a session that people really needed and that well I please help me plan a session whether that is in real time whether that is over a week asynchronous or whether there's a combination of both and all of the above required a generous very generous dose of patience on all parts and finally a couple of references for you to consider if you if you'd like to do a bit of reading on that and the studies and some of the other key conclusions that we did not cover today those are on the screen now so I will pause here and I will hand back to Tunde to take us to the next stage yeah thanks all three of you that was excellent the chat has been buzzing all all along so I think at this point what I would like to do is just if people have questions to ask can you please raise your hand if you wanted to ask the question allowed that you put in the chat please do so and I can also pick some questions out from the chat but if you indicate with putting hands up that you have a question then you can have the mic and ask your question allowed and while we're waiting for someone to do that I could perhaps relay some of the so there was a really interesting discussion in the chat around the this idea that is what you later than you elaborated on is the link between staff and student engagement and you know staff engagement and visibility then promote student engagement and there were a lot of questions around you know how you might I think Jeffrey, Andrew, Vicky were asking around how have you enabled staff to uptake the approach the ABL how how do you obscure them to be able to implement it effectively was a specific question from Andrew but there's associated questions from Jeffrey and Vicky as well so I don't know which one of you wants to take that perhaps well I can start and then I'll move on to Rob because Rob knows the the details but one of the things that we've seen in the in the part of the study the stage one where we talked to the staff was about giving them opportunities to share their knowledge to kind of share experiences and training obviously and support all the time also trying to use the strengths of the staff that we already had and and the strengths that they already had and try to build up on it by giving them those opportunities and giving them time to to to use those but Rob probably can tell you a little bit more about all of the training and well not training sorry all of the the support that was provided by the university yeah there's wide range of support that was sort of in place so we have sort of staff sort of aligned to all of the faculty so there was always people engaged as necessary actually with that we also embedded a lot of these ideas and principles we've embedded that in some of the curriculum design and redesign processes so we internally called that the Cairo development cycle so this allowed us to actually embed it straight into the curriculum and we also had a range of events which allowed people to share really good experiences of where they were doing this already and they were able to then to share this with with other staff in a in a supported forum so they were doing good examples and we're also picking up there particularly case studies and tips that we were then using as part of further promotion with staff because it's it's one of the things I think people expect these sort of messages to come out centrally but actually it's more powerful when actually the staff that are doing this already and have learned from experiences are actually telling other staff about how they have done it and contextualize that for their own subject areas particularly as well Ali did you want to say any more yeah I want to add a couple of things on that one absolutely critical the the Cairo or Carpe Diem learning design process was central to this that enabled us to to embed these principles right from the conception of the course and and with the course as a team approach to course design that helped us put the seeds in and and get that development and that thinking right from the start of the course and there is a question relate that relates to that how do we get from the lesson planning to the big picture well if you think lesson week month term year program the Carpe Diem or Cairo process allows us enables us to to design for all of those for all of those things the storyboarding element of the of the process was central and and that was kind of the when the penny dropped that people oh I can actually do this in that rather different way from what I was doing before it is not content driven it is not getting the content I've got to cover and slice it into 12 weeks and then deliver it we kind of remove the word deliver from the narrative we remove the word cover and we looked at other things particularly learning outcomes alignment of those two assessment and what good teaching looks like in between them the those two and that that enabled us to to to bring colleagues on board because we were showing value we were showing value of this it was not this was not in addition to the job this was their job so this it very it very quickly over the years became clear if that can go quickly it became clear that that was a good way of doing things in the middle of that of course we've had the figure I don't you might remember that rob of the learning and teaching coordinators that played a key role in promoting and scaling up this in the faculties and and the argument at the time was actually learning and teaching is is everyone's role not the role of the learning and teaching coordinator so after after they had so created a critical mass of of of interest of engagement of belief they the the role of the learning and teaching coordinator kind of disappeared and and it was felt that this was everyone's role not the role of one person so I hope I've covered some of the key elements that that enabled us to bring stuff stuff with us in this process so can I sneak into questions on the back of that thank thank you all the I think Vicky asked a specific one because you're talking about critical mass and how you are expanding people who get on board with this new approach or you know the active the ABL approach and then Vicky was asking about interested in hearing how Northampton addresses for example when staff to just read PowerPoints or bend the ABL approach to continue to teach in other ways and that was then perhaps and slightly different but but because just because you mentioned workload and Andrew was also asking about any workload challenge for staff in developing the blend effectively so sorry to ask two questions at the same time and I'm just as well while you were responding I would say I left Northampton in September so probably Rob is is better place to tackle some of that as it is today so I first hand over to Rob and then and then pick up on the on one or two things I want to say okay yeah I think in terms of I think in terms of building up the the capacity particularly in terms of sharing that with with staff and also I think that timescale thing that you mentioned as well along with the the PowerPoint so you can you can push out methodologies till you're blue in the face but if some staff want to do things in a particular way they will probably carry on doing some of those things and actually if you look at the second paper that we actually put which is very much about the the staff experiences of moving to ABL you will see I think some of the fact that staff are they fall into a number of different categories in terms of their their attitude to change generally and I mean I think those of you that are institutions at the moment can also reflect on the different staff that you actually work with and the fact that some of them will play a tokenistic nod essentially to whatever you're trying to push out centrally and then just carry on doing whatever they they decide to do we have not done necessarily a hard audit essentially so we're not walking into everyone's classroom and saying you're doing a PowerPoint that's wrong or anything like that what we have to do to a certain extent is to trust that the academics are doing the right things for their situations at that particular time it might be that a short PowerPoint is actually appropriate for some part of the session and then they'll carry on and do something else at another time we're not going to get into the the view that we've got to see in every one session and to check that they're following some sort of ABL type methodology at the end of the day a lot of this is about good teaching so we have to trust I think our tutors to basically pick up the key things from this and actually to expand that into their own environment the time aspect is obviously incredibly difficult and I know I think you know again the time at the moment is very challenging we've got a number of change processes and I think it was mentioned in the chat about change management and certainly that is covered a lot more in the in the other article as well it is about exactly about change management and it's about very good communication it's about bringing people with you it's about trying to give people the the headspace and the time to actually do their jobs properly I'm not sure that we've managed to solve all of that at Northampton I think that would be a miracle if we've managed to actually do that and there are still things very much competing pressures I think at the same time so it is you know sometimes some subject areas have given people protected time to try and do things in other areas that's been a lot more difficult to do you know and you know we do certainly emphasize with the tutors that challenge to you find this a challenge to actually put these things into place I mean in the in the chat there was a discussion around the the showing staff or just to get them experience the joy of teaching online and and how you know on the other hand that that was to some extent some of the strategies you know and you talked about that if they see that oh I could do it this way and this is actually I enjoy it that that that can be a really positive way of getting people on board as well thank you I'd like to add one or two things to the one in relation to your final point and I had question about points or you mean oh no I wanted to I wanted to just stress or illustrate that point because over particularly at the earliest stages of the rollout of ABL I had very a number of very difficult conversations with colleagues and and I will ask the audience colleagues from around the world to tell me which discipline they think some of these colleagues came from so just just just for a bit of fun but on one occasion I remember at the old cafeteria the old campus I sit down with two colleagues from a particular discipline one one fairly experienced one very young and the experienced guy looks at me in the eye and says the thing is that you do not understand the only way I can teach my discipline you fill in the blanks is through and he slowed right down a lecture right now the bad news for him were that was that the new campus that brought talked about at the start has no lecture theaters and it hasn't got staff offices either and that was going to be as it turned out subsequently turned out to be a big problem for him and some others a handful of others not many but what I would say is that you cannot stop someone lecturing at six people if you if you if six people is your audience in a small room they if they want to do that they can still do that we do not take peer observation as performance management we do a lot of peer observation for enhancement and that is a key tool that we use for mutual enhancement for mutual benefit and there is a protocol to follow which is confidential to the to the people involved it is mutual I would also say that that the all good blends contain elements of multiple multiple sources we're not saying teacher centeredness is completely off the table you it's banned absolutely not every good blend has elements of different kinds teacher centeredness in moderation is one of those and I will end by saying that we would never go out to say oh abl works or abl doesn't work I mean we could say all sorts of things about abl pbl tbl udl and whatever else you want what matters is not the the name or the method what matters is is how you apply that method in context content is not kin context is and that is what matters here yes and yeah I think at this point thank you there I don't know John Cooper 3 do you want to ask your question because it is little bit related to disciplinariness oh yeah I'm happy to thanks very much indeed I'm so it's really just from experience that there can be some courses where there's many many different people involved some clinical some kind of teaching from the university and it's just how we might sort of find that way of of linking people together through a module to get a more interactive kind of sense of how teachers are going to be developed it's it's just something I've come across many times and I am I'd love to know if you've kind of found some kind of ways forward of doing that at Northampton or Osworth I think that's that's a good cue to describe the chiro process in more detail we don't have a lot of time but I will give it a go and then Rob can can can top it up if you like putting your course module or program through a chiro process is a requirement for validation and for other academic quality processes at Northampton and and those processes have to be facilitated by trained people who bring a true interdisciplinary flavor to those to those design workshops that means bringing in learning technologists learning designers it means bringing in students and what appropriate it means bringing in employers to that and it is not it is not a one-hour thing it can take a lot longer like half day slots or even two days in a row that is the critical tool that enabled us to scale up that enabled us to bring to bring the team together as opposed to oh you you do module one I do module two she does module three which which which is a recipe for complete lack of consistency we are not advocating a strict standard or a strict template what we are we are advocating freedom and creativity and all the rest of it within a set of consistent principles that the students can identify so over to Rob if you want to add anything else I was just going to say I've just I know we're quite short of time so I've just popped something into the chat window about what is chiro it's a it's an oldish blog posting we're doing a review at the moment so if you're interested in any more in that please do get in touch and we'll give you some more details yes thank you both I mean just the last question perhaps to Virginia because I know as elastic we are very much interested in methodologies among running projects and evaluation and research of student experiences around technology is is there anything if people wanted to you know do a similar evaluation perhaps is there anything that you might suggest for for us well engage tutors first and foremost and get their time because learner students will not give you their time they will be okay if they if you can have the last 20 minutes of a session but it's going to be very difficult to get them to actually move and go to your office or something like that and I'm so sorry I know we are very short on time but there's something that is happening it has been going on on the chat that I think is really really important several people ask for recommendations and Jeffrey will mention something about learner students sorry students being conservative and I think that's a really important point too um we one of the things we realized in the tutor stage was that it was incredibly important to also teach students about what ABL is if you're going to make them learn in a slightly different innovative transformative way then they need to know what they what they're expecting uh to overcome those expectation gaps and all of that conservative so that would probably be one of my main recommendations in in any case is to teach tutors what they're going to be doing and the value of it and also learners students because it's incredibly important that to get them engaged okay thank you and thank you all the three of you thank you everyone in the chat as well because there's just some brilliant conversations around that and hope you know once we've finished this session we will make this available on our website and in our blog just to reiterate and for those of you who might be new to LSEG of who we are we are a community of researchers and practitioners and we come together to you know to disseminate share practice and it's it's we're all very much interested in researching and evaluating learners experiences with technology so if you do want to get involved then um there is a few ways that we've listed here so you can join us we've got a gisk mail and the old site as well and there's some really good instructions you know if you wanted to attend our next webinar or propose a webinar yourself for a topic then do get in touch with us you can look out for our LS6 Scholar Scheme pilot which is a mentoring scheme that we're doing around research and evaluation follow us on Twitter or if you want to write a blog post let's say about this webinar and some of those sorts that you've been contributing to the chat that would be brilliant and also we have got regional conveners so for instance I am the co-lead for North West Rob is in in the Midlands so you know you can find us and get in touch and get involved can I just add that there's I can I just been scrolling up and down the chat there's a lot of stuff in there that we did not touch on and I'm sorry colleagues that we haven't had the time to do that but I hope that through those other sessions other regional meetings or discussions we can address those things I have not forgotten them yeah I mean I don't know what we could do is that we could start a blog of this session because I also think there were some really really good questions and I wondered if you pasted them out in the blog and if you had time I don't know to perhaps just spend some responses to that would that be a good way to do but I know there were some really good comments and conversations around that but just to plug so thank you Ellie and and colleagues for for this excellent session it was a brilliant opening very apt and I know in Northampton you were already seven years ahead of time I guess we're from looking back from this year so our next session is on the 27th of March and the details are there and you can sign up on our webinars list but I think this is us four of us saying goodbye is there anything else Rob colleagues you want to add but thank you so much for your time and see you next time now thank you very much everyone for attending thank you thank you all see you next time