 Okay, Power Up Hawaii. We're back. Two o'clock, Rock. We have Raya Salter. She's an energy and environmental attorney and consultant. She's the principal of Imagine Power, LLC. And she's here with us today doing Power Up Hawaii. Let's meet Raya. Hi, Raya. Hello. Hi. Raya, tell us about yourself. Well, thank you very much first. I am so happy to be here. I want to thank you and thank everybody here in the studio for being so welcoming and warm and showing me so much aloha on my first show. So, yes, my name is Raya Salter. I am an energy attorney, clean energy advocate, and community outreach specialist. I moved here from New York City in January where I was an attorney for the Natural Resources Defense Council. What is that? That is an organization that does clean energy advocacy, also food, water, land, wildlife, in the United States and also globally. Wow, exciting. Did you go litigation for them or advocacy in some other way? No, I am. Energy advocacy is interesting. It's sort of a mix of corporate and litigation. I have an undergraduate degree in economics from Wesleyan University and a JD from Fordham Law School. You were teaching there also. Yes. I am also an adjunct professor at Fordham Law School. And after law school, I went into corporate practice, corporate energy practice, focusing on energy mergers and acquisition and the regulation of energy assets. So when we talk about sort of practicing in the energy area, there is this corporate nature in terms of very big deals, multi-billion dollar deals as we look at huge infrastructure passing hands. And then you move into the regulatory space where the corporations meet the other stakeholders, the public, the consumer advocates, the clean energy advocates, and a public process moves forth to sort of figure out how our energy system is going to transform hopefully to the benefit for all. So at NRDC and before that at the Environmental Defense Fund, I did advocacy to promote the integration of clean and renewable energy onto the electric grid. Just a question comes to mind is that what I hear in between the words is that your advocacy is not necessarily the kind of activism that seeks to stop things. You rather prefer to negotiate things and establish a middle ground where the energy, you know, energy efforts can proceed in a way that satisfies your clients without, you know, breaking the bank on the capital side. Am I right? I would say yes and no. I think we need all of the tools in the box to move forward on a clean energy transition away from fossil fuel. We need activists. We need teachers. We need community leaders. We need artists and musicians, people who tell stories. We need policy folks. We need engineers. We need government leaders. We need political champions. We need all of these actors to work together. And yes, there is a political push-pull between actors. Some folks are more extreme. So everyone has their way of being an advocate. And I think that's what I'm so excited about this show and Think Tech Hawaii is that it's about, you know, how can this mix of people come together on this really complex topic. Yet it's complex, but everyone understands that we need to work to create a cleaner environment and have clean and renewable energy. Well, OK, let's talk about the show. If you didn't pick it up by now, actually, Raya Salter is going to be host. This is the first show under the rubric Power Up Hawaii. It's a wonderful name for a show. And we love energy, so we want to do as much energy as we possibly can. And we see you as a valuable player in that conversation. Thank you. But how do you see it? How do you see that show unfolding? What kind of subjects do you want to cover? What kind of people do you want to bring in? What kind of, you know, what kind of messages do you want to send? I think that one of the problems, particularly in energy, because it can be complicated and it can be so focused on technology. And that is wonderful. It's interesting. It's why people like me are energy nerds. But engineers and accountants can't, we can't move to a clean and energy future with just the engineers and accountants. There is a role for all folks in the community to play. And what I'd really like to do is tap into those who are interested in clean energy advocacy, who are important stakeholders in the conversation, or who are messaging renewable energy and have a vision for it. And can we talk to those folks about what is it that you're doing? How can you reach out to others to sort of increase your movement? But also, what kind of bridges can you build between you and other communities? Because a more inclusive process, I think, will result in a better outcome for clean and renewable energy. Okay, let me ask you a question that comes to mind. In a perfect world, why can't I just do it? You know, we have to get transformed. Not easy. It costs a lot of money. It draws down capital from multiple sources. There's a lot of engineering involved, and it's a moving target. It's changing all the time. The technology is complex. Wouldn't it be more efficient? I know how you're going to answer this. Wouldn't it be more efficient to just do it, get out of my way, I'm going to do it. Anne Rand and Atlas Shrugged, I'm going to do it. You know, this is an excellent question. We are moving from a time when I think most people who are interested in, you know, we've had this anxiety, we've known about the reality of climate change and how catastrophic it will be for us, our children and their children. But in many ways, one feels powerless. One feels like, does it really matter that I'm recycling this bottle? Does it, you know, really matter that I'm, you know, taking out my trash in a certain way? It was difficult to feel, or even just me riding my bicycle, it was difficult to feel empowered. Now, we're at such a critical point with energy infrastructure. Not only do we need to make this change, but our system is now over 100 years old. It's aging, it's dirty and polluting. There's literally trillions of dollars that needs to be reinvested just in our current crumbling energy infrastructure. We can't double down on the old system. Happily, the cost of a lot of these technologies has begun to come down. In fact, in many instances, solar power in some jurisdictions, including Hawaii, is cheaper than conventional generation. So we are in a place where individuals can step up and say, I am going to do it. I am going to do this on my own. I want to have my own isolated system that does not work with the utility, or I want to own my own solar generation and sell it back to the utility. So that is exactly where we are. Be you an individual, be you a business, be it the utility. We need to make these investments. They need to be clean. There is a way for folks to participate and feel the power. I think you are giving us a window on what you are going to be discussing and who you are going to be talking to. The magic word is participation. To take your point, you can't have a transformation of your society. Going to clean energy is a transformation of your society. It is where we live. It is everything around us. It is all the machines and the things that help us do the things we want to do. We can't do them without energy. That is the reality. And to transform that critical mission, critical system is expensive, difficult, and it is iconoclastic in the sense that it breaks all the old rules. So we have to participate. Everybody has to be involved. How are you going to cover that on your show? I think just even at the outset, we can begin to reach out to some diverse actors. People at the beginning need to be identified. People can see what other folks are doing. So say one energy stakeholder that is really looking to get the word out about their programming. Say it is energy efficiency. It is something that could provide so much benefit to so many people. Wouldn't it be cool for them potentially to know that there is a community group that goes to community meetings and engages people on energy education? In many times, the silos that you referred to, they really are real. Especially in New York, I have been in situations where say the governmental entity looking to administer programs wants to interact more with community-based organizations. But really have not even identified who those people are. So if we can begin to reach out to talk to diverse stakeholders, I think that is one way to start the process. Well, it sounds like you can only talk to them about what their concerns are, but you can also try to bring them into the thought process. I mean, for example, I don't think people understand about transformations that they cost money. Even if renewable energy is cheaper in the final analysis, when everything is in place, you have to put it in place and you have to buy all that technology, all kinds of new systems. You have to take out the old systems and gee, things are much more expensive now than they were in 1910. Trust me on this. I have to go to authority on this. This is an incredibly important point and it goes again to why it's so important for stakeholders to be involved and for people to understand more about each other. The issues that you raise in terms of making an investment in the system, what does it mean to an asset when it needs to be removed or is a stranded cost? Who pays that cost? All of these are really important questions. It is the people, the millennials and the children now who are going to pay in their lifetime, in their peak earnings income time. They're going to pay the costs of these investments, as will different community stakeholders. At the same time, the nature of the new technology is much more interactive with consumers. I had a chair over here. It involves things like demand response, different levels for folks to react to prices at different times of day. These things cannot be successfully implemented without some further level of engagement with customers, with the people who use the energy system. There needs to be, the wheels need to be greased at that nexus and folks need to understand what's at stake. Yeah, you're giving me thoughts about this. So we have been trying to make money, frankly. And the government has been trying to avoid criticism. That's what governments do. They try to avoid criticism. And a lot of players in the field, they try to avoid change. That's what they do. So you get a really ambitious program here, actually, Ray, to try to get them to the table and have them change their spots, so to speak. So what do you see in terms of changing the spots, changing the way those millennials think? Having them understand they're gonna have to pay for this, more than me, they're gonna have to pay for this. And their lives are going to be affected adversely because they have to dig deep in their pocket. What do you say to them? How do you bring them into this table and make them understand the fundamental process here, but also that it's gonna affect them? I think that that's it really. It's by trying to get the message out exactly what you are saying. It's incredibly important that the younger people engage in the conversation. Not only are they going to have to pay for the system, but it is they and their children that will face the negative impacts of climate change. And of course, islands are on the front lines of this climate change. We only have a minute before the break, but let me offer this, the show just last hour was with Abhi Soyfer, the Dean of the William S. Richardson School of Law. And one of the things we talked about in the context of what we call it reconstituting the republic, that is dealing with having the constitution flexible and up to deal with the changes that have been revealed by this election. It's the same thing, isn't it? Because those millennials that you're talking about and the ex-gen people coming soon, they don't trust the government. And one of the constituent stakeholders in all of this energy transformation is the government and utilities, they're kind of like quasi-government. And so these kids have to learn to trust the organizations, not just to throw them out for whatever they say, but to trust them and work with them and be part of a collaborative effort. This isn't easy. Well, you know though, what I say to that is that our 120 plus year energy system is not the only sort of major global shift that neither is climate change that is affecting these young people. Also what's happening is the baby boomers are passing the torch to them. The time is approaching where the younger people will literally need to step into the roles at the utility. There's this generational shift. You've got retirements nationwide of utility workers. They're going to need to step into these new economies, these new shoes, and make it reflect their values and their consciousness. Now I'm beginning to understand where you're going on this. Okay, we're going to get into a discussion of exactly what's happening status-wise on the mainland and for that matter, the world. And we're going to discuss also what's happening in Hawaii and how it all connects up. Very exciting. With Raya Salter, an attorney and environmental energy person and consultant with principle, she's a principal attorney of Imagine Power LLC. And in power up Hawaii, we'll be right back. I pity the fool who ain't watching this show at 12 o'clock on Friday afternoon. Stan, the energy man, watch it. Hi, I'm Ray Starling and I am co-host for Hawaii's Wednesday afternoon state of clean energy. And with me today is Leslie Cole Brooks and she's going to tell you what's happening this month with our shows. Hi everybody, I'm Leslie Cole Brooks, the executive director of the Distributed Energy Resources Council. And this month is the focus is on distributed energy resources. We just had a great show on smart grid technologies and the rest of the month we're going to discuss storage, different strategies, micro grids, and then we're going to have live man and woman on the street from Verge. So it's really exciting, very informative, lively and just worth doing. So see you next Wednesday. Okay, we're back. We're live. We're drinking water on the set. We're going to stop doing that now. Okay, that's Ryan Salter. We're powering up Hawaii right here in her show. And we have these promotional footage during the break and all these people, they're all your guests. You're going to be dealing with Ray Starling and Leslie Cole Brooks and this is your universe. Wonderful people, wonderful people. I'm privileged to know. So Ryan knows these people. Anyway, so okay, I want to get to the national, global kind of lay of the land. In Hawaii, this all became part of the public consciousness in November of 2008. And that's because we had this clean energy agreement. And although there had been discussion in decades past, this was sort of a crystallization of the issue. It was the government nod, the government compact that we wanted to go ahead with. And since that time, it's been off to the races. Now, the mainland has moved at a different speed. In some ways, the mainland is behind us. In some ways, the mainland is now catching up or maybe exceeding us. What is going on nationally? And I suppose I could ask you, how do you think that might be affected by the election today on election day? That's an extremely important question. While I think we should mention the election, while it is not my intention to be political, for the most part, here we have a clear choice when it comes to climate in the environment. We have a candidate that is a climate denier who has said that he wants to tear up the Paris Agreement on reducing global greenhouse gas emissions, and wants to stop clean and energy renewable development. And we have a candidate who is progressive on climate and wants to continue to walk forward with international partners and continue importantly to implement and enforce the reductions that we agreed to in Paris here in the United States. So that's a clear choice on climate. I encourage folks to go out and vote, vote your conscience, vote your values. And given that we're literally at this explosive moment of that decision and choice where in mere hours we'll know, maybe I'll leave that piece there in terms of what is gonna happen going forward politically. Although there are some extremely important trends that include political trends nationally and internationally with regard to clean and renewable energy. We know we have the historic Paris Agreement and that means we have shifted from, it's still important to make agreements, but how are we going to implement and enforce them? In the United's- Great question. Huge question. In the United States, we have the Clean Power Plan, which is- Do we sign up on that agreement yet? Just a thought. 100, I believe over 100 countries have ratified the Paris Agreement. And but whether or not the Clean Power Plan will be able to roll forward in the United States is an important question that's actually tied up in the courts right now. In terms of- And who says the government is dysfunctional? I think that's right. Hawaii is at the tip of the spear when it comes to clean and renewable energy development. I believe it's the most important state in the country in terms of where are we going to go next? And that is why I have chosen to come here. There it is important for- So it's a laboratory for you? Well, no. It's advanced. Well- It offers the possibility of being further out than anyone else. And it is. So there are two points I'd like to address on that. Once, one, there is a moral imperative to further clean and renewable energy for Hawaii and other islands in the Pacific. Hawaii and other islands in the Pacific are on the front lines of climate change. Having contributed the least greenhouse gas emissions to the global picture, they will suffer the impacts first. And this is the part that's a bit of a downer in depressing. Hawaii, Samoa, Tonga, FSM, Guam, Palau, Marshall Islands are facing the specter of loss of life, land, culture, and place. So there is a moral imperative for the international community to make sure that clean and renewable energy development can improve people's lives while making islands withstand rising seas and extreme weather events. Now there is also, beyond the moral imperative, there's an economic imperative because of the fuel imports Hawaii pays the highest energy prices in the country, which is a tremendous burden on business, individuals, and in particularly the poor. The same is true of other Pacific islands. So furthering clean and renewable energy can improve energy security. It can free up economies and allow for the economic development that is needed for Hawaii and other islands to thrive. And this is something we should be looking at doing together. In addition, beyond the sort of relevance, Hawaii has the highest levels of solar penetration in the country, one estimate is 17%. So we are in the thick of being ahead of everyone else. But we slowed down. We have slowed down. We have slowed down. And yes, and that leads us to where we are on the policy front. And in that instance, Hawaii is also at the forefront, but also with some national trends in New York. Right, a lot of these companies are slowing down in the mainland too, yeah. And so I think everyone understands that a lot of folks want to participate in clean energy and that that has created some challenges with the utility here. I think everybody understands that. And where folks are here and throughout the country is, how do we strike that balance? And how do we provide a fair value in price for renewable energy, be it owned by a private individual, be it owned by a solar company, be it owned by the utility. So with NRDC, I represented NRDC in the proceedings in New York where they're trying to figure this out. The same conversation is happening here. It's important from a policy perspective and it's moving forward. Well, you know, it just sort of connected for me while you were speaking. You were into mergers and acquisitions. Now I know you were doing mergers and acquisitions for advocating advocacy groups rather than the capital concentration. No, it was a capital concentration in private practice. Oh, you were. Oh, okay, well, that's even more totally relevant. So we had this experience and I'm sure you saw it with next era. Next era, unfortunately, did not get approval. But the question is still open and a lot of people felt it should have gotten approval because it had a deep pocket, it had engineering, it had a track record of being able to put complex deals together and it had a great future in terms of effecting national energy policy. So, you know, there were benefits but Hawaii didn't see it that way in general and the PUC didn't see it that way. So query, where does that fit for you for your inquiry, if you will? Are we positioned in a place where we need to have that kind of capital come in? Is the utility better off, you think, going forward to join the national consolidation momentum in energy? I think you've put your finger on something that's extremely important. There is a national trend on consolidation amongst utilities nationwide. I won't try and look into a crystal ball in terms of whether or not it would be better. Will there need to be a lot of capital investment to make this transition happen? Yes. May the Hawaii, the energy companies in Hawaii seem attractive targets for potential suitors? Yes, that's also part of it. That's coming from an M&A attorney now. That's a serious statement. We're an attractive target for acquisition. I think that, yeah, you may very well see more suitors. At the same time, the state is trying to move forward on a conversation of what is the best model for the utility? We've got a co-op in Kauai, what is the best model? And so this conversation is happening in terms of what is the utilities role, what is the private actors role, and what should their role be as we try and achieve more clean energy? Wow, I feel like I'm talking to somebody who is going to have a huge effect on this. Aside from the show, you're positioned in the perfect place to see all these disparate elements in our transformation and maybe help them. And let me add the nicest way, at least in Hawaii, for this to work is with love and affection. You know, we should work together, but we should also really enjoy it and we should not compete for the sake of it and we should talk to each other and exchange information and work together. I think you've exactly put your finger on it. The only way that I hope to insert myself in these conversations here is from a position of wanting to be wanting to be a help, of seeing how I can help the process move forward and what kind of conversations can I join? And can we make this something? That is fun, interesting, and enjoyable. Fun, interesting, why not? It's technology, it's looking into the future. We only have a minute left, Ryaz, but I'd like to offer you the opportunity to talk to our viewers and take a moment with them, engage with them and tell them what you're gonna do and why they should follow you and listen to you and check you out every week. All right, well, hello everyone out there. Be you in Hawaii, Samoa, or New York City. I am so glad to be here and I'm looking forward to starting what I hope will be a fun, enjoyable, and important conversation. I think we're gonna have interesting guests. We're gonna have things for policy wonks and nerds. We're going to have musicians and artists who help tell these stories. I think that's actually a crucial part is having our storytellers understand and be the Pied Pipers to help other people understand the important energy messages. In fact, I think that's really what it's about, is how can we break down these complex topics in ways that are fun and accessible. I was told that talking about energy, it's like really talking to your really smart uncle who works in the hardware business on Thanksgiving. He's a really smart man, he doesn't wanna be talked down to, but he already understands the basic undercurrents and he really wants to engage and understand more. So I think we're gonna talk with great stakeholders here in Hawaii. We're gonna get people on Skype from islands in the Pacific, from New York, from California, and let's see what lessons we can learn and what lessons we can all share. I'm excited. I think it's great. So look forward to it, to see Ray Assaulter on Tuesdays. And you'll find out more about energy and you'll find it out from a special vantage point, a special way of looking at it. She's a principal attorney of Imagine Power LLC. The name of this show going forward is Power Up Hawaii. And now we have Met Raya. Thank you so much, Raya. Thank you so much, Ray.