 The reason why I want experts back in the industry is because we have a labor shortage, and once you have an expert, people don't bounce and you retain them. Welcome to the Smarter Building Materials Marketing Podcast, helping you find better ways to grow leads, sales, and outperform your competition. All right, everyone. Welcome to Smarter Building Materials Marketing, where we believe that your online presence is your best salesperson. I'm Beth Popnukolov. I'm flying solo today without Zach. We've got an excellent guest and topic for you today. We are really excited to welcome Bob Beldaki. He is one of the owners and investors of ON3, and they have got some incredible ways that they are changing the landscape of our industry. Bob, thanks so much for your time and welcome to the show. Thanks, Beth. Thanks for having me. Yeah, absolutely. Before we dive in, Bob, can you just tell us a little bit about who you are in your background and introduce our listeners to ON3? Absolutely. So, Bob Beldaki, as you said, I've been 25 years or more in sales, marketing, branding, space with companies like Disney Consumer Products, Seco, Emzertile, with the building construction world where I was 15 years as your CMO and head of business development. And then recently, I retired from Emzert and decided I was going to take some time off, but ON3 came calling. And so I joined ON3 as an owner and investor because I saw them doing with something that I felt like was a real pain point in the industry for us, which was training. And we had a real difficult time getting training in front of our teams, whether it was sales individuals, whether it was frontline construction workers. And what ON3 did was created an unbelievable content creation system, and then a delivery system that actually puts things in people on their phone and mobile first. And so it was a really compelling, exciting kind of venue that I just couldn't help but jump into. So, un-retirement is the new retirement. That's what I've been hearing this year. You're among many of the greats that came out of retirement. You know, it's funny because I was happy being retired. I really was. I mean, we have a real estate investment company that we manage as a family and a few other things that we do. And I just was going to be good. And but this thing came along and Paul Cardos, who was the founder and creator of Avid Ratings, who most of our listeners are probably familiar with what Avid does. He started that company and built it into what it was from a customer satisfaction rating system. And I'd gotten to known him through that company when I was free and had time. And he's had this ON3 opportunity. I could just jump on it. So tell us a little bit more about what that infrastructure looks like and how you're seeing ON3 solve this training pain point in the industry. So what ON3 did was it really focused on frontline construction initially. So if you're a construction manager out in a home building with a home builder. So we just call it Dan Ryan Builder, our DR Horton. And you've got to manage, you know, 50 plus homes in terms of any various stages of the construction process. What we really wanted to attack was the fact that you have this knowledge base with these construction managers that might have been, I don't want to say limited, but not complete. And so they might know a lot about the industry, but they might not know everything about the industry in terms of A to Z, in terms of how a home gets built. And so a lot of them, and then plus we have such a labor challenge and shortage within the industry that, you know, we're onboarding people constantly and we're finding people who have got a background, but they may not be complete in their background. And so what ON3 really tackled was the construction process from reading a plot plan to doing the finishes. And it didn't in a way that provided these construction managers a look at what they should be seeing. And if you think about it when you're out on a home and it's the home is in various forms, you're looking at something that a sub or a trade just finished or is working on, you have to determine as a construction manager, is that right or is that wrong. And what ON3 is doing is it's helping them decide for right and wrong on the construction side at every part of the build process. And it's doing it in these quick micro learning modules where they can, they'll take courses that courses are designed to be, you know, mobile first, they're AI driven, they're right on their phone, they can take them in five minutes or less. And they're learning as they go. And then we've then also provided them this amazing field guide system where once they've taken a course, they'll always have a quick video that'll bring them back to that subject, that content and show them what they're looking at. And what's great about it is they can also then work with the subcontractors right there on the spot and show the subcontractors the video or share the video with the subcontractors in both English and Spanish and other languages. And make sure that everybody's on the same page. And what we're really targeting is avoid mistakes so that they're not claims later. Stop failing inspections when, you know, because you know what the right thing to do and you get the subs to do it the correct way the first time. And really kind of target those check those post walk checklist where you have customers saying this needs to be fixed or that needs to be fixed. And so the idea is to really streamline and then gosh, and if we can really accomplish something which is save them on cycle time, carve a couple days or three days off of cycle times, I mean $500 a day is what it costs for cycle time. So if you can cut three days out of a home and you're building a thousand homes, you do the math, right? It's a ton of money. So that's what we're focused on. And then from there, you know, it's a delivery system in a tool that'll allow others such as retailers, brands, you know, so vendors and then subcontractors for the trades will also be able to participate within within the confines of what we're doing. So I mean, this is obviously training and skilled labor. You're hitting on some pretty big pretty hefty topics with your background in sales and marketing in the industry. What did your go to market strategy for bringing this tool into the industry and getting in front of the right people look like? The marketing side of it really was build the platform, get the content created, and then really be able to then show people the difference between what content creation looks like and which is really important because everybody has content, right? But we did content in a micro learning format that really we've proven that kind of shows you get like a 70, 80% retention rate on our content versus maybe a 20% retention because we're using multi mediums, right? We're using print, we're using words, we're using gamification, we're using video all within this quick five plus minute, you know, module burst of content. And when we do that, we're finding that people are really they're retaining this information. And so the go to marketing was one, explain to people that not only is our content been built by builders for builders or construction for construction, to we can take your content and we can repurpose it into content that will be built into the on three format or three, we will allow you to create your own content through a thing we've called on three create, which allows you to almost sit down, take a video, write down a couple of objectives and shoot it to us and we'll turn that into a learning module. And so the marketing of that was one, show people how that content creation side of on three really is unique and different. And then two, it's the delivery system, getting people in front of the delivery system that's on your phone mobile first is not, you know, it doesn't have to be formatted from the PC to your phone and a weird funky way is built from mobile first. And then really showing people that delivery system and making sure that they can see that it's super user friendly. So for us, it was really about just getting this in front of people to say, let me explain what we're doing here. And once we do that, and we get people to slow down enough to kind of take a look, right, which is difficult, probably the most difficult thing is to get people to stop, slow down, take a look and see what we're doing. They realize that the system not only works because it's user intuitive, but it's also a system that will create the retention that they're looking for. And my ultimate goal. So then the thing that I really want to see is I want to create experts within our industry. Again, coming from Emser, you know, we had a couple hundred sales associates in the field, and they're phenomenal. They're probably some of the best in the industry. But because of, you know, 10 year, how long people have been with the company, how, you know, whatever they were in their phase of their career, the true experts was was a was a handful. And I think that's true of most brands and most companies where the people that really know the inside and out of everything. And when I mean inside and out, I mean, you don't only know your product line, which I hope everybody knows their product line, like you should be you should be a product geek when you join a brand, right? So but but not only that, but you but you know how that product gets used. But you know it in a way that is so intuitive that you can help guide customers in terms of the right application. So they don't make mistakes. And so when you understand what products, what setting materials, what ancillary products you need to use on a second story installation for a bathroom, leading into a hallway, and you know exactly how to guide a client into that, or you've got an indoor outdoor application, and you want to make sure that you can tell a client this product is suitable for both indoors and outdoors. And if it's covered or not covered, you ask the right questions. Now you're becoming more of an expert in that frame of mind. And the reason why I want experts back in the industry is because we have a labor shortage. And once you have an expert, people don't bounce, and they retain them. They might leave a company, but that's on the company to figure that out, right? How to retain their employees, but they won't leave the industry. It's too difficult to gain that expertise in another industry. So when you become what I'll call that expert, you don't leave. And so the HR departments would love this because it helps them with retention, longevity of their employees. You're showing them when you're onboarding somebody, they look, we're going to give you a training program that's going to make you that expert. And so that you're super valuable to your clientele. And so it all kind of ties together, not only from a construction perspective, but even the sales organizations and teaching people. So that's what really got me excited. And you know, you can see it's been probably the way I'm talking about it. I start geeking out about it because I think this is really where we've been missing and we've been really gapping. And so that's the pain point that I saw was a real opportunity. That's a fascinating way to frame solving the labor shortage problem is you get so much skin in the game that to your point, you might leave a company, but you're not going to leave the industry. It's not just about bringing like new people in, it's about keeping the people, retaining the people that we have. I mean, that's a really important piece of that conversation that we don't hear people talk about a lot and something that's interesting that we love about the industry is it's a, it's a small world. We often say, like, if you meet someone in the building materials industry, you better be nice to them because one way or another, yeah, you are seeing them again, even as, even as we're watching, I mean, this is the moment of the great resignation, right? I don't know about you, but I currently sign on to LinkedIn just to see who's announcing their new position. It's an interesting world we live in, but I'm not seeing anyone from our industry leave. I'm seeing them shift companies to your point, but they're going, they're staying within the industry. And so making, like, moving that down to the crafts person is a huge, huge way to go after it. I love that idea. Well, I mean, honestly, I mean, if you, if you talk about your own companies and people listening, they say, if they really did an analysis of, of how their people go to market or how they show their products or how they even talk about the company, the brand, the culture, you know, and if you listen to them and you watch them in action, you can see if they're very surface level, or you can see if they're deep, right? And if they're surface level, and if they're showing up a shiny object and saying, look how pretty this is, please buy it, but they don't really understand it, that's the one you have to worry about because they're not invested. And so that's really what I was talking about. And, and, but those who go deep and can, you know, talk for hours about it are the ones that you now need to figure out how to keep happy. You threw out some numbers about your training engagement. And if someone's not spending time and training or doesn't, isn't familiar with video analytics, you might just assume that if somebody starts a video, they finish the video. However, if you are just a human, you know that we don't do that. You mentioned you have 70 to 80% completion rate on the videos that people are watching. What are some of the mistakes that you see manufacturers make in their training that's bringing that number down? So not necessarily on the on three platform. Obviously, this is like training that manufacturers are creating on their own. It's more retention than it is kind of completion. So I think the retention and completion are two different topics. And I'll kind of cover both. So from a completion perspective, there's a couple ways that I've seen companies in the past really do training. One is they use an old LMS system that has these long training modules and sometimes you have to sit in front of a computer. Mainly it's sitting in front of a computer watching things that'll take you 30 minutes per module or 15 minutes per kind of subject content. And most of the time, if you're doing that one, you're not in the field now and you're not kind of doing the job that you're supposed to be doing, but you're sitting at a computer listening and watching training. Some of it's really valuable and important, but you're probably multitasking at the same time. Because it's too long, it's arduous, it's kind of difficult to get through. So I would think one of the biggest mistakes people make is the length in which their training takes place. So that's why I think that if you shorten things up, you make the micro-learning, you do small bursts, that retention, then we get to the retention. People not only are completing it because it doesn't take very long, so you're getting great completion, but you're also getting great retention. The second mistake I see people make is they try to think that they can train in what I'll call mass numbers through things like PowerPoint presentations on Zoom calls. And those will go for hours sometimes. And everyone we've all been on those Zoom calls where we're taking people through new product introductions or new training or we're trying to get people to kind of really understand what the company objectives are and they do it in these long drawn out processes. Again, people start multitasking, they tune out, they mute their phones, they turn their cameras off. And next thing you know, they're not really understanding what they're listening to because they're not really listening. And so that's where kind of these 20-30% retention rates come from is because we try to hit people with long-winded, big broad net kind of approaches versus allowing these things to individualize and to do short bursts and then being able to come back and coach and follow up and see the completion rates. So that's kind of what the difference is in terms of what we're doing. So again, it's short burst, it's coachable, there's a coaching function to it, it's trackable, it allows people to start and stop at any point they want. So we really try to address all of those failures within the training system and put it, like I said, at the hands of the user with the coach involved that basically can monitor their progress and then also ask for kind of engagement. There's engagement built in within the on three system. And I'll give you a good example. So you finish a module, you learn how to do something in the module, say please send a video to your coach, your boss, that you just about how to do what you just learned. And they'll take a 15-second video themselves, reading a plot plan, they'll send it to their boss, their boss will say, great job, you missed a couple of things, but overall great job, just remember to do these look at these things in the future and they've engaged. So now you're on boarding somebody and you don't have to sit right next to them while you're doing it. And so all those things where when you talk about like the why it fails, you have to be next to your boss most of the time when they're onboarding you, right? Especially if you're super new. And the boss is a job. He or she is already doing their job and they really don't have time to go out into the field or sit next to you or walk you through, even if you're in an office next door. The idea- I wouldn't need to hire you, right? Like I'm hiring you because I don't have time to do all the work that needs to get done. Right. So we're trying to just address all those things. And that's where not only the completion piece comes but the retention piece comes from is that we're trying to address all the things that are obstacles in the world of training and onboarding. Bob, what could a manufacturer do to push their training pros? They're getting them the information that they need. They've got technical sales teams. Like if I'm a manufacturer and I'm listening and I'm like, look, I'm checking a lot of boxes, but it's more competitive than ever. And all of my competitors are also doing all of these things. What could I do as a manufacturer to push them into that expert space? What are you seeing as a tipping point there? What kind of investment needs to be made? Well, you hit on the first word, which is push. So I'm a firm believer that you should be pushing content to your teams versus asking your contents to pull it back in and to try to absorb. And I believe this in everything from CRM systems to training to sales content leads. The organization needs to drive what they think is important. And that's key. And listen, there's great ideas that come from the field always. And you got to listen. You got to really be willing to listen because that's where you're going to adapt some of your strategies and your goals and your initiatives. But ultimately, if you push to the groups, A, what you think is important, what you want them to be focused on, and what you want them to understand and learn about a category in industry, then you're going to have much more success than asking them to try to figure it out and absorb themselves and just kind of take 50, 80 different courses and then kind of take them as you don't. So push it. So push it first, push it directly and then follow up on it. The second piece is you really need to make sure that you've got people who have got passion for what they're doing. And the best way I used to kind of talk to our sales teams was the question I asked is that what's your hobby? I said, what's your hobby outside of work? What do you love to do? And some people say yoga or running or biking or whatever it was. So if they're a cyclist and they love to bike or they're a triathlete, I started to ask them or they golf, what clubs do you use? And why do you pick those clubs and what courses you like to work on and what shoes you wear and what you have your favorite headgear? What is it that you love that? And they start talking and they start talking about their equipment. They start talking about the bag and why they use what they use. And the next thing you know, they are so invested in this hobby that they've spent a little bit of time, energy and money on that you turn around and say, okay, stop. If you can take that same passion for your hobby and put it into the thing that actually affords that hobby, which is your job and have that same passion and enthusiasm for it and learn it the same way you do, then you're going to be successful. But if you don't care, and it's just a job, then you're that person who's no longer an expert and you'll bounce from job to job and we won't retain you and you'll move industries because you'll never, you'll never invest. So the analogy really is to take them through, you know, get them excited about something and then bring it back to the world of their job. And so I know I'm kind of all over the place and this is welcome to the way of my, welcome to the way my mind works. But that's okay. Yeah. So but, but it, but it is something that I feel very strongly about. And so, you know, one, you got to have someone who's willing to be a recipient of what you what you want to teach them, you know, they've got to be a sponsor, they've got to be willing to kind of invest. But two, as an organization, you have to be super clear, you got to know what you want. And a lot of struggles and mistakes that I'll call brands maker or industries, you know, brands within the industry is they don't know what their identity is and they struggle with it. They want to be something that they're not or they want to try to be everything. And what they end up doing is they distort that vision, that passion, they don't become anything meaningful. And so if you've got a great brand story, one, tell it, right, push it, make sure your team is telling it and pushing it. And more importantly, make sure your strategies align with that, with what that brand is. And so, and that you don't have conflict there. And so one of the things I'll, you know, a lot of your sales reps in the industry will tell you is, you know, we say we're X, but we want to do Y all the time. Or the brand is X and the sales reps want to do Y and people tolerate it. And you're like, stop, we got to do X, because that's where we're good. Let's focus there. You know, and we'll get to time management a minute. Well, I mean, what you're saying is you have to have a point of view. And I think it's a really important point to call out that if you're competing in a commodity space, which a lot of manufacturers do, and some of them do a fantastic job of kind of foregoing the fact that it's a commodity and investing in your brand. But if you're in a commodity space and you're not creating a brand that's memorable, frankly, for the good or the bad, then you have a much higher likelihood of getting looked over for somebody that I'm at least going to remember. If you're trying to be all things to all people, you often end up being, you're kind of nothing to no one. Right. And people ask all the time. I love that even training is coming back to brand. This is just really making my day about it. But it does. It does. I couldn't agree more. Absolutely. I mean, quite honestly, listen, your brand is everything that touches it, right? So it's the people. It's your web presence. It's your social presence. It's the way which you market. It's your media. It's how you talk about it. It's, you know, it's, it's not the logo. I mean, the logo certainly is part of it, but it's so much deeper than that. And it's deeper than the products is important for what you're saying also. Like if you're asking that it's just product and customer service, it's not enough. Right. And so people say, well, how do you differentiate commodities? I mean, it's a commodity, right? Well, you got to decide what that is. And so if you're a commodity and you're priced, okay, so then you better win on price. And then your infrastructure better be able to support the fact that you can win on price. If you want to win on service, price is still a consideration, but that service better be a differentiator. And it better be something that is not just lip service. It better be something that you live from your, from your warehouse individuals all the way up through your CEO. And so you need to be able to basically win on service. And so, but you need to find that identity. And people really struggle with that identity. And, you know, we could do seminars on that, but it, but it's, but it truly is something new. Now, if you got something that goes beyond just a commodity where you really got a fashion component to it, now you got a whole, whole another story to tell. And so, you know, that's where I tell people, I'm like, you know, when you get into the world of branding, you know, just really know who you are and then stick to it and then be good at it. And then make sure that the downstreams understand it, live it and tell that story. And so anyway, and the way you sometimes you tell that story is it is through training because you need trainers that not only learn your content that you want to push from, but then they need to train their customers as well. You know, whether it's on the product knowledge, whether it's on the use of usage and application, whether it's on whatever it is, you know, you need to make sure they're trained. And sometimes, you know, logistics, I'll give you a great right now, everyone's struggling with logistics. They're struggling with logistics. Well, everybody has a model right now that's either working or not working for them. And you can ignore the fact that things are taking longer or they're more difficult, or you can get out in front of it, communicate it, work with your customers, train them, talk to them, create your expectations so that everybody's on the same page and you know what you can deliver. And then you don't disappoint people. And so the worst thing you do is make people plan for something and then not deliver it and then have a trade backup because this didn't show up and then, you know, it just self fulfills. And so, you know, you got to train on logistics, you got to explain to people what's going on and then take that downstream. So, again, I digress. I do have to ask, so your scenario where you tell people about their hobby, because I think that totally makes sense. Like, are you willing to invest in this as much as something that you are kind of inherently passionate about? Did you ever give someone that speech and they were like, you're right, Bob, I'm out. Like, I'm never going to invest here. You know what? Most people aren't that bold about their thoughts. But I will tell you, you can see, we've had plenty of conversations where you'd be in front of a room of 10, 15 new hires and you want to kind of walk through it and you're talking to them. And what I'll tell them is that, listen, you're hearing all this, five of you are going to apply it, five of you are going to think about it and five of you are kind of checked out already and that'll actually come out in the wash and we'll figure it out later. But eventually, you'll see it. So people aren't that bold, but you definitely know when light bulbs are going on and when light bulbs aren't going on, you can see it in people's faces, expressions, body language, and you just kind of know. You just do. Is there any manufacturer's brand that you are bringing to mind when you're thinking about someone who's just really invested in a point of view that's clear and memorable and compelling? There's a lot of great brands out there. Just in the flooring space alone, of course, I'm partial to Emser in terms of because I feel like I helped build that brand. So I think they did a great job. But you can't ignore the power of what Mohawk and Shab done with their brands in terms of what they've gone to market. I love the brands like Moen and Kohler in terms of what they've done. And then the appliance brands have also done a great job, whether it's Whirlpool or Wolf. These guys have done a great job in terms of bringing their brands out. And they've made them household names. The funny thing about our industry is you've got things that are kind of front and center, which are household names that people would recognize that consumers would recognize because they shopped. Whirlpool refrigerator, the household brand. People understand it. They know it. People don't understand an Emser or a Daltile as it going down the floor. That consumers don't recognize those brands because, quite frankly, the brand is on the back of the tile, which is underneath the floor. Which we're all great. Homeowners are grateful for that. Right. So when you talk about brand and who does a great job and where they are, the other thing you have to always ask yourself is who your audience is and who you're trying to attract. At Disney, it was very easy. We had Q-scores that were in the 95 to 99 range. A two-year-old kid would know what a scripted Disney D looked like and be able to understand that that was Disney or with a Mickey icon ears. They knew it. So our branding was very consumer based and driven. At Emser, our branding was much more driven towards our audience, which was the industry. So we didn't necessarily focus so much on the consumer, but we focused much more on the industry. It's because we wanted to be a brand name amongst those who actually needed us to be a brand and trusted us and knew how to use us, et cetera, and get to us. So sometimes branding, you know, people have to understand to find your audience, because you can chase an audience you'll never get, or you can embrace the audience that really wants you to be there for them and actually market to them and spend your time and energy against them. And so, you know, again, that's why I would tell brands, figure out who your audience is, figure out what that pain point or that least difficult way of getting to them is and then go after them hard and be focused and committed to it because they'll appreciate you in the long run if you do. You know, and if you want to be a consumer brand, better have the dollars. You know, better have the dollars to really back it up, support it, and get it out there because someone who's not a brand household brand name today that wants to be one tomorrow, it's a long process. It's an expensive process. And you may or may not even get there to the level you want. You might have to cue scores in the tens versus the 90s and versus, you know, if you were to spend that time and energy with your trades, getting them understanding, you'd spend a lot less money, and they'd appreciate you a lot more for it. That's some real talk you got there, Bob. Just say it like it is, man. I like it. Yep. So, Bob, if I'm a manufacturer, what one piece of advice would you give me if I wanted to improve my training to create experts in my brand? Well, one I'd say higher on three. No, I'm kidding. But I mean, I would. But I mean, I would. But I would. But to be honest with you, what I would do is I'd start with the content. I tried to figure out my content and really what it was that I wanted people to understand and learn. And, you know, and then I'd start really looking at how I'm going to deploy that content. And sometimes it's an LMS system and people have them and they work and so forth. But more importantly, I'd probably also figure out what my connectivity is between my leaders and my new hires and then my trainers in between there. And I'd make sure that we had this kind of this culture that said, you know, everybody's responsible for it. You're responsible not only for your own training, which you have to be. You have to be passionate about learning, you know. And so if you're an individual coming on board, I'd tell anybody joining a new company, if you want to be successful, everybody will tell you, well, I didn't have time to learn the product. You didn't have time not to learn the product. That's your whole job. So what were you doing? Well, they don't, they threw me out into the field. I had to be behind the counter. I had to do this. I had to do that. And you, and you talk to me to say, slow down, stop. This is not a sprint. This is a marathon. We want you here a really, really long time. And if you slow down your first couple, three weeks within an organization as an individual, just so that you can learn what we do, how we do it, why we do it, you're going to be so far ahead a year from now, six months from now, that learning curfew is going to kind of accelerate. So, so I would tell people, you know, from a, from a training perspective, one, figure out your content, but also make it available and make and give people the opportunity to consume it, whatever it is. At MSR, if we threw somebody in a branch, we had 80 branches across the country, we threw somebody in a branch and that branch had a full showroom of a sort of, of our products there. The thing we used to encourage people to do is let them play in the showroom for a while. Let them touch, feel, learn the products. Don't push them so aggressively into their quote job before they get a chance to absorb what we do. Because if you do, you're basically creating an issue downstream for yourself because one, they won't be invested, two, they won't know what they're talking about. And the minute people don't feel comfortable in what they're saying to a customer and they feel a little bit inadequate, maybe a little dumb, you know, maybe a little kind of uninformed, whatever that phrase you want to say, it's, it really puts people off and they really get frustrated. It's the one, one create great content to give people the opportunity to absorb it, especially early on, you don't get those two weeks back. You just don't, you know, so give them the, give them that, that leeway on the front end. And then three, have a way to measure and follow up, you know, have a way to kind of establish whether or not these people are absorbing the content you wanted to do and then kind of check in on the pulse of their enthusiasm for the content that they're doing. And so you make sure that you've got people who are not only absorbing it, but they're kind of getting into it and they like it. And they can quote geek out about it, and they can get to become that, that person who's kind of as enthusiastic about their hobbies, they are about their job, because that will shine through to whoever they, whoever they touch. And so now it becomes back to brand. Now you've got a brand ambassador who not only is excited about what they're talking about, but they're pitching and selling in the right way to kind of build loyalty and everybody and people want to figure out how to define brands, create loyalty. It's no wonder you came out of retirement, Bob. This is awesome. It's really good. Well, Bob, I want to say thank you so much for your time. This was like genuinely fantastic, just really good information. I know personally I'm taking notes. So I really appreciate your time. And for our listeners, if you want more great content like this, head to venvio.com slash podcast. And until then, we will see you next time.