 Welcome to Resiliency Radio, your go-to podcast for the most cutting-edge insights in functional and integrative medicine. I'm Dr. Jill Your Host, and in each episode we delve into the heart of healing and personal transformation. Join us as we connect with renowned experts, thought leaders, and innovators who are at the forefront of medical research and practice, our mission to empower you with knowledge and inspiration, aiding you in your journey to optimal health. Today is no different. I have my dear friend and expert in mold, mycotoxins, chronic illness. We're going to dive deep into all of the questions and hopefully answers that you might want regarding the complexities and chronic illness that we see in our society, whether you're facing it or a friend or a family member. Hopefully today you will get the answers that you're looking for. Dr. Nafisa Papia is a board-certified naturopathic doctor and director of naturopathic medicine at Gordon Medical. Throughout her career in holistic medicine, she has focused on treating patients with complex chronic illness. She specializes in tick-borne illnesses, Lyme disease, environmentally acquired illness, mold and mycotoxin illness, autoimmunity, fibromyalgia, long-haul COVID, and chronic fatigue syndrome. She uses cutting-edge laboratory testing and deep intuition applied to the full range of scientific data to create comprehensive treatment plans that are highly personalized. Dr. Nafisa, thank you so much for being here today. Thank you so much for joining me. It's always such a pleasure to be with you. I agree. It's just so wonderful to connect with another human being that uses the science and the mind and the intuition and pulls it all together. Before we start into the complexities and chronicities of illness, tell us a little bit about how did you get into naturopathic medicine and how has been your journey to arrive here? Yeah. A long time ago, many lifetimes ago, it feels like I was doing fundraising and it paid my bills, but I just was not tapping into my human potential. I just knew there was so much more for me to do in the world and to help people. I became a yoga instructor. That was wonderful, but still I knew there was more. I went to naturopathic medical school and they trained us to be great primary care physicians. I was so happy to get that training and to be teaching yoga at the same time. Still, I knew there was more. I wasn't finding that I was able to go deep with people. Maybe I could help people with the common cold or with some basic primary care. I was actually aching to work with people in a very deep level of healing. I sought out Dr. Dietrich Klinghart while I was in Seattle at Bastier. I sought him out for learning from. I took all of his courses and I ended up after I graduated spending a year in his clinic learning from him and his top doctors there. I remember sitting on a table once when he was with the patient. I was covered in goose bumps and I knew this is my patient population. These are the people who I'm going to be working with, people with complex chronic illness, the mysterious illnesses. It was really this deep longing within me to work with people in their human condition and in healing that led me here. Then I sought out all kinds of other training to learn this that we're not taught in medical school or naturopathic school. That was my journey leading me there here. Well, I am so glad you're here today because you and I share this really deep, profound understanding that there's science and there's our analytical mind. We love to use that and you are one of the most brilliant people I know. At the other side of that is our deep wisdom and intuition and there's a huge piece I feel with these complex chronic illnesses that we need to bring in that heart-centered medicine. Let's just start there. What is it about your approach to medicine and how do you bring in that heart-centered approach? Because you and I know that some powerful answers and insights come there and it's just such always a pleasure to talk to you because not everyone lives in that space and sees patients with that authenticity. It's true we both you and I both live in this space and so then we bring it to our patients and you and I both use a lot of scientific knowledge, a lot of data, looking at people's biochemistry, looking at their genes, looking at their microbiome, looking at their toxins. We can get on to all of that after but I love that you want to start this conversation this way talking about the heart of medicine. How do we approach all of these biochemical things with heart? One thing I know is that when a patient, any patient comes with complex chronic illness they're in a very sacred time of their life. It's like we're walking on holy ground as we're working with these patients. They're in a stage of healing but we know it's not just physical healing. When the body is speaking so loudly in so many different systems it's really also about the spirit speaking, the mind speaking, the whole being, the whole being. The body is giving us messages on the spirit and on the mental level that want to be heard and that want to be integrated in with the biochemical healing that we also bring. For me it's really listening to that patient and understanding what it is that's just aching to be heard and to be seen in this world and we just move from there. Some people have a spiritual practice. Some people don't and really it doesn't matter as long as it's helping that person find the depths of who they are and their own self-value, their own self-love but I also know that we as doctors, I know you do the same thing. I have my own practice to keep myself clear so that I'm not bringing my own filter, my own traumas, my own issues to the table because us doctors are human as well so we need to keep ourselves clear, put our own stuff to the side and approach our patients as the clear vessel, the best, the best that we can be in order to really be there in here and understand and I pray so I pray for divine guidance to show me the path for each patient. So well said and I could not agree more with you and it just reminded me I pulled out this quote I heard this morning. It said it was a Russian lady who had been through trauma and war and lost her husband and her son and just like over and over and over like difficult difficult way worse than you and I have maybe ever faced and she said every trouble wants to draw you to the very best sorry draw the very best of you back into the world. So every trouble wants to draw the very best of you back into the world and I like I wrote it down and I just I hadn't planned to share that but it makes so much sense of what you're saying is so often these difficulties these chronic illnesses and you and I are in that field of medicine so we're dealing with complex chronic illness that often takes us off track from maybe our plans for career plans for marriage or plans for having children or whatever kind of thing that we think is the next step and we get ill from something something's happening to change that but it's actually drawing us into the world to really fully participate so I love that you said that because truly I've found I've had a lot of illness in my life and illness if you view it as a teacher it can be so transformative instead of disruptive because it's hard to face it and it's really hard when we start asking why but I think there's better questions like maybe we can say how can this transform us instead of just why is this happening. Right and patients know it's very often I'll tell them you know at some point I think you're gonna tell me what the silver lining is I think you're gonna tell me why a lot of times people say you know what I already know why I already know that I'm becoming wiser I'm becoming stronger I'm I'm becoming more me and even though I've hated this this being sick I'm really grateful for it because it's lifted me to this level of healing on all levels and I would say almost every single patient who's come out the other end from from being sick to wellness they've they've said this I can't think of a patient actually who hasn't who hasn't thanked the illness at the end of the day because they're walking stronger they're walking healed in every aspect they're a different person. Yeah I love that because if we can see it as transformative it truly can be some of the best things that happen even though it's it involves suffering it involves difficulties this is not easy we're not saying that you should just walk and skip along and say everything's great because it's not but the understanding that there's deeper meaning now before we go into actual chronic complex Lyme mold long COVID I want to ask you a quick question and I'd love to just hear you mentioned just a sendering yourself and your own practices to kind of be in that place are there any just practical day-to-day things that you try to incorporate for your own health and mental and spiritual well-being every day that would be helpful for our listeners to hear? Yeah so I meditate every day and and I say I say prayers and I make my prayers very very specific um I actually have a spiritual teacher um from from two of them actually from indigenous healing practices and I remember once one of them teaching me about a decade ago really say the fine print of your prayers and connect with God or the great spirit or whatever someone wants to call it consciousness or that deeper sense within you if you don't believe in in that but but to really connect with consciousness and to say the fine print like you're looking at the at the back of a shampoo ball or instruction ball and say it very clearly to yourself and that's what I do I I'm very clear on what my prayers are and manifesting them very specifically and and I meditate also using silent mind as much as I can to to focus on my breath so combination of both of those things also connecting with nature connecting with the earth as much as possible as well. Great tips and so practical that we can all access so let's shift now to the complex chronic illnesses in your bio and one thing we'll mention links to at the end of this show but you've got a summit coming up and give us the title of that and then stay tuned for links wherever you're watching this podcast if you want to see more of Dr. Nefisa but what's the title? It's called cracking the chronic illness code ticks toxins and mold and I'm very excited you're on the summit so everyone can watch you too here so it's it's great. Hey everybody I just stopped by to let you know that my new book Unexpected finding resilience through functional medicine science and faith is now available for order wherever you purchase books in this book I share my own journey of overcoming life-threatening illness and the tools and tips and tricks and hope and resilience I found along the way this book includes practical advice for things like cancer and Crohn's disease and other autoimmune conditions infections like Lyme or Epstein bar and mold and biotoxin related illness what I really hope is that as you read this book you find transformational wisdom for health and healing if you want to get your own copy stop by readunexpected.com there you can also collect your free bonuses so grab your copy today and begin your own transformational journey through functional medicine in finding resilience. It'll be so fun yeah we have another interview so let's dive into that and let's just start with the first one so ticks so tick-borne infections ticks Lyme disease some people who are listeners are very very familiar with this others are not maybe let's just start with framework of like how often are you seeing this as part of the chronic illness and how does it interplay with the other things you mentioned environmental toxins and even long COVID yeah so this is something I see almost every day in my practice we're definitely we are a Lyme clinic but so much more than Lyme um environmental medicine and when someone comes in and they have a diagnosis of chronic Lyme or say they don't even have a diagnosis of chronic Lyme they just have a mystery diagnosis but there's a lot of pain in their body mysterious symptoms I'm testing them for Lyme I'm testing them for many many other things at the same time so I think that people people like to think oh it's just Lyme right and that treat my Lyme but I tell my patients when you've been sick for a long time and you went to infectious disease and you or you went to a Lyme literate doctor and it didn't work or it backfired there's there's something else that's going on this isn't just Lyme so I tell them there's usually five reasons people get sick five root causes infections toxins structural integrity issues lifestyle and diet so when it comes to infections in these patients there's usually multiple different infections it's very common that there's tick-borne illnesses I'm testing for that so that could be Lyme, Bartonella, Babesia, Arlicia, Rickettsia very common people have all of these infections from the tick but they also typically have parasites they have fungus issues they have a high viral load different different different viruses different bacteria and different systems of the body so the genital urinary system the gut possibly the lungs colonizations and the sinuses in the nerves the the nervous system and the connective tissue if it is tick-borne disease so they've got all these different layers of infection in different systems of the body and they often have environmental toxins I know you know all of this but for our audience right I just want them to understand what we see every day so heavy metals very very common glyphosate mycotoxins pesticides solvents very common structure integrity issues I'm usually seeing two different extremes so people with tight tissues tight fascia when that's happening there's not optimal circulation or not optimal lymphatic flow now a lot of our patients also have lax ligaments that they just come in that way genetically they're that way but if they have mast cell activation syndrome those chemicals for the mast cells are tenderizing their ligaments so imagine this ligament here that's holding up the brainstem if that gets lax there's pressure on the brainstem so we we see people with cranial cervical instability now lifestyle I'm talking about sleep but I'm also talking about trauma adverse childhood events the trauma of being ill and then diet most of our patients have diet diet dialed in by the time they've come to us but all their life they've probably had the standard American diet food wrapped in plastic not organic I tell my patients if you have just one of these issues going on and it's been chronic six months or longer chances are you're going to see some pathologies but most of these patients have all five of these going on at the same time and it's been a minimum of six months usually years now it becomes a very personalized thing we've got an inflammation an immune dysregulation actually immune dysregulation first of all five of these issues creating inflammation that inflammation then meets the genes and we get these secondary illnesses chronic fatigue syndrome long COVID fibromyalgia chronic Lyme those are secondary illnesses but they become the person's own expression actually it's more now about how the person how the body how the mind of the spirit the whole being has reacted has responded more even so than the triggers once they've been sick for a while actually what a great clear I don't know if I've ever heard such a just concise clear like a we I can picture the poster right where all these things are coming together and it makes so much sense and so hopefully those of you listening are seeing yourself maybe in some of those places what I would love to ask you for the sake of our listeners is say someone comes in and they have history of Bartonilla and Lyme they've had mold in their environment they have structural issues with hypermobility and they have maybe they have the diet somewhat dialed in with a gluten-free dairy free sugar-free diet not perfect as far as timing or resting but this whole thing where would you start give us just a little bit of a rundown on how you'd approach that patient yes so I usually like to start with what's downstream first so I think of all that the root causes right infections toxins lifestyle structure integrity and diet so I'm often starting with the well I was about to say immune dysregulation but really the first place I start is one of the first places you and I just started with this conversation which is the heart really knowing who who is the person in front of me where is their heart where are they in their life what do they want can they picture themselves being well if they can't then I know that we're starting in a different place than somebody who can see themselves being lost some people are afraid to be well so really understanding who is in front of me what are their fears what are their hopes what are their dreams what are their goals what emotional and spiritual state are they in in addition to what physical state they're in so I'm starting there a lot of the healing work actually starts there we have healers that we work with or I might be doing the work with them and when it comes to biochemistry I'm starting with working on immune regulation first so most of our patients have as a downstream effect immune dysregulation mean they've got a hyperactive immune system on one side and a weak immune system on the other side so on the one hand they've got autoimmune conditions rheumatoid arthritis shimodos lupus chogrens for example they have mass al-activation syndrome I'm sure there's patients saying that's me right so they've got this hyperactive immune system on the other hand they've got a weak immune system they can't mount the appropriate immune responses to kill off the multiple chronic infections that they have or their immune system is more permissive to infections that we're commonly exposed to or infections that are dormant for example the herpes family of viruses like epstein bar virus or cytomeglo virus they've been dormant but something comes in comes along maybe COVID and the inflammatory cytokine flare wakes up those dormant viruses so it's it's common that these people have this hyperactivity and weakness at the same time in their immune system and I'm working to regulate that that's one of the first things I do because I know that if if I were to go after their chronic infections first or detoxifying them first I'm just going to increase inflammation it just comes with the territory we kill infections we're going to create create inflammation but these patients are already in a highly inflamed state they're stuck in cell danger response one right so inflammation is meant to be transient but with these patients their their immune system doesn't know what transient means when it comes to inflammation because they're stuck in creating an inflammatory process which was originally to protect the bodies to contain the insults but their bodies don't know how to stop so I'm working on stopping that inflammatory process because when I kill the infections I don't want to contribute to more inflammation I tell my patients it's like I'm putting I'm packing new soil into your garden because I'm about to pull out some nasty weeds and if I start to do that now we're going to create landslides so let's set the stage first get your body ready for this so I'm using a lot of peptide therapies to modulate their immune response other downstream effects I'm seeing is hormonal dysregulation like I know you're seeing in your patients all the time so working on their their hormones working on the terrain of their system so that when it comes time to work on the big root causes they can handle it and that's that's where we start that makes so much sense and I love because it is true and whether you're listening or you're a doc like you and I are if you start to just blow up the infections which we can do they're in a world of hurt and they're not ready to their body just can't handle that toxic load and that so I really like the other thing I heard in your story as far as how you approach patients is you're creating a space for them to feel seen and heard first and I think what you're doing is actually creating safety right like that is such a core of creating that bond that that connection to your practitioner and so if you're out there listening you don't have a doctor who can sit with you and really listen and you feel heard you probably need to find someone different because honestly being heard and listened to and and feeling safe like you're under their care is so core right and let's just digress for a moment and talk about the safety because if the body isn't feeling safe there's no amount of healing that can take place right it's so true so it's accepted us right to to initiate that that safe space because then the patient will tell you everything and we need to hear everything yeah without judgment right right I love that because I felt like as you were talking that's such a foundation and you're just you know going through because that's what you do but I wanted listeners to hear this is really transformational I feel like the secret weapon and I'm sure your clinic and mine is like just unconditional love and acceptance like creating a foundation where the patient truly feels and I'm sure you've had this as well where patients are literally in tears because doc no one's ever listened to me no one's ever really heard and that ability to feel seen and heard is at the core of healing so I just didn't want to get over that yes people say that well this is the first time I felt heard I felt listened it's the first time I have hope yeah and you know what a blessing it is right she'll it is it's like the joy of why I go to work right and hopefully it means you've either experienced this or you're about to because there's no more powerful healing than just truly feeling understood yes so we go ahead so we talked about obviously kind of how they come you're doing the train and there's something that that you've shared and is so powerful in the pre-tox let's talk a little about what is that term mean and how do you go about doing a pre-tox yeah so just like we need to prepare the patient for treating chronic infections I'm also at the same time preparing them for detoxification so sometimes we use substances when when it's appropriate to pull toxins outside of the cells so chemicals like pesticides glyphosate mycotoxins they bio accumulate in our fat cells and metals bio accumulate in the cells of our organs and lead likes to bio accumulate in in the bones and so we can use certain medications to pull the toxins out of the cells so that we can then flush them out of our body flush them out through the organs of elimination the liver kidneys the gut the skin now before we start to do a cellular detox we want to make sure that those organs of elimination are prepared they're ready to handle a load and also I want to I want to clear up toxins that could be floating out floating around in the blood as well because they do and so I'm again setting the terrain so giving herbs to support the organs of elimination looking at what toxins might just be floating around the blood or the urine if there are toxins floating around then and it's at a certain level but I'm thinking there's an acute exposure and I want to find out what that acute exposure is and stop that before we even start to do a cellular detox because we could do cellular detox till the cows come home but if they've got an acute exposure it's just not going to work I'm going to keep getting exposed so it's understanding what's happening in their system before we can even start to well in their organs specifically before we can start to pull the toxins out a lot of people might have chronic UTIs that's that's not the right time to detoxify them I want to pre-tox them by supporting the genitourinary system if that's an issue or a lot of people have mass cell activation syndrome and I want to calm down the immune system because I know when I start to detoxify them their bodies are going to respond poorly to two things to to the toxins as we pull them out of the cells but also to a lot of the herbs or medications we might give to help with detox so it's working on the person's system by system exploring system by system and working on it systematically like that then prepare them for detox so helpful um and let's just pause and give listeners a practical um what are some of the things that people could do at home maybe before they're still maybe they have a practitioner like you or I out there but that they could just when I think of like sauna or epsom cell baths and I always learn from my naturopathic friends because you guys have so many tools what are some of the tools that people could practically try and do just for pre-tox or gentle detox in their day-to-day life? Yeah sweating for sure but some of our patients have a hard time sweating have a hard time in the sauna maybe because they have mass activation syndrome and the heat is too much for them or the sauna's mobilizes too many toxins so probably you tell them also just start for 10-15 minutes if you can't handle that one of the things I want to make sure is that the patient isn't constipated a lot of patients come to us with constipation and a simple thing to do to help with constipation you want to talk to us for sure if if simple things like some magnesium or some more fiber or more water is not helping then um then we need to explore that more but usually people can can help themselves um with with their constipation if they're not too sick at first eating an organic diet um having clean green products personal products or or makeup those are good for steps. I love that the clean air clean water clean food which is so foundational of any sort of detox or detox um let's talk just briefly we mentioned along COVID and unfortunately because it affected so many millions of people um I've seen statistics up to one in five maybe higher are affected um how do you see post COVID affecting people with chronic complex illness give us a little framework of that. Yeah so what's very interesting is our patients who were who were our patients prior to the pandemic and during the pandemic we actually thought oh no our patients are are are so sick they've already got complex chronic illness they're going to end up with long COVID and I'm sure this happened with you too your patients did not end up with long COVID right because we were already pressing on those multitude of infections we were already detoxifying and we were already we were already working on the inflammatory pathways in these patients so along comes COVID and they're okay they do just fine it it's the people who were not our patients prior right they they come in they've got long COVID they've never been sick before you know maybe they were tired or maybe they tended to catch colds often or maybe they had some digestive issues but nothing major they could they could just go along their lives just fine but they had this low-grade inflammation and maybe their immune system was keeping a lot of viruses or other infections at bay their immune system could handle it but then comes spike protein then comes microclots from long COVID then comes inflammatory cytokine flare and suddenly there is inflammation in the blood vessels from the microclots suddenly there's spike protein possibly in the blood vessels in the organs we can't measure for it yet well we can't not specifically but we can look at some markers to give us an idea right and and there's inflammation and suddenly infections that were dormant they they are suddenly at the surface they're suddenly awake suddenly a person is in chronic Lyme they didn't even know they got bit by a tick but they've got the symptoms it makes me want to test so I do and I find that I find I find the tick-borne diseases I find HHV6 I find mycoplasma I find Epstein-Barr virus cytomegalovirus is not usually an or it's usually and all of these bugs and then we look for the toxins and yes the toxins were there but their immune system could handle it now suddenly they can't and that's long COVID in our population that's a great framework because it truly is just like I always think that's low we've talked about toxic load before and it's like one more thing that breaks the straw that breaks the camel's back and often people who were going along okay it was just this one more thing or one more episode and it doesn't really determine as far as the severity of the COVID I've actually seen probably more patients who are suffering after a mild case of COVID than some of the early kind of really severe cases so it doesn't necessarily go along with how severe your COVID was right right you know that as we're speaking I'm thinking about something that Dr. Robert Navios shared with Eric Dr. Borden I really recently and it's about how complex chronic illnesses are really about the person's own expression of illness here we are talking about these chronic illnesses and that and then the secondary illnesses that result as a bunch of primary root causes and so we meet with him often and we're very close to him and something he said recently really really stuck with me and he said in almost all of these acquired complex chronic illnesses chronic Lyme chronic fatigue syndrome fibromyalgia mass cell activation syndrome he said there's no one gene responsible for the same diagnosis in different people so he said that it's hundreds of different genes and hundreds of different biochemical variables acting in a coordinated fashion that that makes somebody arrive at these diagnoses and they're different for each person so he was looking at different metabolites and he was saying so basically he was looking at people with the same diagnosis and their different abnormal metabolites and he found that 25% of the chemicals were the same and people with the same diagnosis and the other 75% of the chemicals were different they were unique to each person and so really by the time someone has a complex chronic illness the illness has become their own their own stick their own expression and so then going back to treatment the treatment really is about personalization right and I know you do this I do this it's even though we talked about how do we first start right we start with making the person feel safe we start with immune modulation and nervous system regulation at the same time we also know that we're looking at somebody whose expression is totally different than the patient we just saw in the patient we're about to see even though they have the same diagnosis and so we've got to make it so personalized I love that we're kind of wrapping in this direction because that is such a core I see I'll just go off on just a moment a lot of times on social media and people who maybe don't have a medical degree are promoting out there hey here's this protocol spend this large amount of money to do this protocol because it'll fix everyone and you and I know I'll just warn you if you're listener out there in common if you've seen this or heard this or even been susceptible to it if someone says there's a one-size-fits-all it costs this much money and we'll fix you when everybody does the same thing you and I know Dr. Nephisa that that does not work and that does not really get to the root cause and it's funny because even in my you know work as teacher and educator and all of the same as you I'm often asked to give kind of protocols and I'm always like there's no protocol right there's no protocol the core of this work is very very personalized like yes the habits like you know clean air clean water clean food those can be for all of us but as far as really getting well this absolutely requires a unique and personalized approach and I love that you mentioned that and emphasize that you know when our new patient coordinator first started you know first started that role she would say to me so I've got a new patient calling in they're wondering if you do the Sears protocol for those of you listening you don't know it's not just shoemakers mold protocol or do you do the ILADS protocol and I and I told her her name is Rachel Rachel tell them that we have our own protocols and it's unique for each individual no I don't do that protocol because it's not going to work for our patients some people these things will work for but we're talking about a different patient population they've tried that the illness has become so so personalized we've been going on for so long at least six months that can't just throw a protocol on it anymore I love that we're talking about this because again what's sad for me as you and I see this all the time out there these promises that are really we I look and I just see and I'm like oh I hope no one falls for that because that is not going to work and it doesn't mean you can't get started on your own it doesn't mean you can't learn I'm not saying you have to pay an expensive doctor or that but I'm just saying be cautious there's no one-size-fits-all there just isn't in this complex chronic world I'm so happy you're saying this yeah you too it's like so important because I get actually a little upset when people I feel like are being misled because I have this heart for the patient who's suffering and they're wanting to fix and they're wanting a protocol but the truth is there's just not that's not work that's me too yeah it really does when people are given this promise right follow the protocol you can follow this mold protocol or this gut protocol or this mast cell protocol follow it and you're going to come out the other end and right they do the then they end up in our doors they've wasted money right right well you have seen amazing reversals and people getting well and so in the last minute or two here what kind of hope or inspiration or encouragement would you like to give our listeners about if they are facing complex and chronic illness so there are there are doctors out there like like Dr. Jill like myself who who really are here for you and who have a lot of experience in this and it takes it does take a lot of experience I know I know that there are there are there are other doctors out there who may not have the experience but who who want to be able to treat complex chronic illness and bless their hearts I'm happy they're trying but you need a lot of mentorship a lot of training a lot of experience so the hope is that there are doctors like us in fact we're both on the board of ICI the International Society of Environmentally Acquired Illness I can tell you that all the other doctors who are on that board have a lot of experience you can trust them as well and and there are doctors who are trained through iLADS and through ICI and that's where you want to find your doctors who've got the experience and the appropriate training and Dr. Jill and I turn patients around every day all the time it's what we live for I know it's what you live for it's what I live for it's our life's work and so we're here for you yeah thank you for saying that thanks for mentioning ICI we both love that organization they do a great job training it's non-profit so we're just saying that just for the benefit of your listeners um so you've got this summit coming up and that's one of the things one of the reasons why we wanted to come on and as you're hearing this it should be out in the next week or two so you can sign up it's all free um tell us the name again and then wherever you're watching listening to this there will be a link below you can check that out and get all this great information tell us just a little preview of what you've got coming sure it's called cracking the chronic code tix toxins and mold so it's all about complex chronic illness and it's it is so much more than tix toxins and mold as you heard Dr. Jill and I speak about today so we talk about all the different possibilities that that lead towards a diagnosis but also to treatment so we've got a lot of cutting-edge um answers and ideas out there for you to join us with so come and join us it'll be great fantastic and again the link will be below or wherever you're watching this um if you uh need transcripts or need full links you can find all of my episodes on my website at jillcarnian.com you can also find all of my episodes with transcripts on youtube on my channel just search my name and you'll find that so depending on where you're listening um thank you again so much for being here today thank you for the wealth of knowledge and most of all the heart compassion that you bring to the world in the healing space thank you for the same and thank you for having me here