 Govna Rotimia-Keridolu of Ondo State accuses Kaduna State Govna Nasera el-Rufai of exporting banditry to the south. And 2023's southern presidency is sacrosanct, Afeni Faria says, supporting southern governors. This is Plus Politics and I am Mary Anacol. The Ondo State Govna Rotimia-Keridolu has berated his counterpart in Kaduna State, Malam Nasera el-Rufai, over the latest comment on anti-grazing law. Well, El-Rufai had described the anti-open grazing laws being signed by some southern governors as unrealistic. However, Akkadolu in a statement said such a statement should have not come from a leader. He reiterated that the anti-open grazing law, especially in Ondo State, had come to stay. He said that if truly Govna El-Rufai made these statements, then it means that he is struggling hard to export banditry to the south. Well, joining us to discuss this is Thompson Okorote, he is the deputy national chairman of Pandev, and we also have Krissi Tamunola, he is a legal practitioner. Thank you very much, Ms. Tamunola, for joining us. Thank you very much, apologies for the inconveniences due to power failure and the rest of that. I am happy to be here. All right, so it's interesting that we are seeing this war of wards between two governors, one in the north and one in the south. And let's also cast our minds back to the fact that southern governors across party lines had taken a position on open grazing in the southern parts of the country because of the issue of banditry. Now, we also have seen reactions coming from other governors in the north saying that it is a political conspiracy of sorts. And here we are again, Governor Kerry Duluth and Governor El-Rufai having this back and forth. But now let's not also forget that we've seen one southern governor who has taken a step back and canceled or rather unbanned open grazing in his state, and that's the emo state governor, which means that his back peddles and so open grazing can happen in his state. But let's look at the basis of this matter. A law is a law, obviously, and open grazing is a business of sorts. And if a state is saying that this is what they want, why should that be a problem? And do you think this is politically motivated in the first instance? Well, first and foremost, let me commend our democracy for this. My background, Kerry Duluth and the governor of Cardinal State El-Rufai are both APC governors and that the two of them can have a divergent views. It's good for our democracy. It's not being drawn on party lines. I haven't said that. It's imperative for us to know that if we acknowledge the fact that we are a nation, it means that the very states must definitely all have powers to express their good will, express their opinion as they believe it. I mean, as practice all over the world, Los Angeles, I beg your pardon, one state in America will take a decision and it will differ from that opinion from another state in America. And yet the presidency is not going to sound otherwise about it. By the Nigerian constitution, the states have powers to make laws that are suitable to them. The presidency cannot impose its own opinion, let alone El-Rufai, making counter, I mean, the decisions have been taken from the South, I mean, not only South across the various states in Nigeria, previously up till now, that open gazing is anti-people and to that extent for goodness sake, why can't you respect the opinions of the various governors and the states? Let me stop there. Mrs. Amunala, I'm curious because the truth is, from time, I mean, since I was born, I've always seen normals, I've seen these cattle rares move from one place to the other. Migration is in their DNA. Now in 2021, bandits have come under the guise of, you know, cattle rares and has cost the security issue for us. Normally one would ask that, you know, let's say Miety Allah deal with the issue by trying to stay off the road so that we can catch those people who are masquerading as, you know, cattle rares in the guise of bandits, but telling these people not to move around the country, how easy do we think that this is going to be because El-Rufai is making a case that it's not something that can happen overnight, but that the governors are making a law that is unimplementable and he also said that they're politicizing and that's why I asked you at the beginning. Do you think that this issue has a political undertone? Is it that the South is trying to take advantage of the situation that is happening in the Northwest to, you know, push these business people away? The answer is absolutely no. And the basis of it is this. Look, 2021 is not a team night night. 2021 is certainly not a 1960. Or even 1970. And let me tell you something, up to shortly before 1999, Nigerians live together irrespective of their political, social, religious belief without any form of divide, without any form of bias. But unfortunately, I'm not sure that the present day administration, not necessarily whether it is APC or PDP, I'm not sure the present administrations are helping in relation to building trust amongst, not just among the federating states, but amongst the people. I mean, today we're having marriages between not themselves, between Christians and Muslims and whatsoever. And why can't it be that under the most circumstances and ordinarily, there is nothing wrong that Wabuka is moving from the North to South, but in the event that he moves from North to South and Wabuka, he commits some vices, he breaches some etiquette, what are the laws, what are the realities on ground, what are the evidence to show that such are people have been brought to book while you are bringing to book other people from the East, from the Western region, regarding their home and so on. Look at what is happening in this territory, regarding them becoming, how many people in the North, will you be able to say, while some, when you say Kateriara, while you say and talk about this set of people, you can not generalize, you can't form an opinion to say that all Kateriara's are evil men, but it is definitely true that some Kateriara's definitely are evil men and of course, where these have been found culpable, what are the evidences? I mean, for goodness sake, River State, you go to the, what do you call it, Agri Road, you go to LA, you go to, these are settlements of where you see how some people or the full amnesty, the Kateriara's and the rest of them, but while you come, do you acknowledge that the host community is also entitled to having an expression in terms of how they feel about you? Can we also go in the same manner to the North and feel at home without being threatened and whatsoever? These are the issues. And I think that the presidency can do a lot more by seeking, you know, appealing to the consciences of the various governors and through the governors to the people. What the president of the Federal Republic of Nigeria who came by democratic principles ought to do in this situation is not to force himself or God to choke the governors and the states and whatsoever, but to give an impression that he's a father not just to the North, but to all the federated states. Okay. At the moment, I'm not sure that I'm seeing that speaking. I mean, as much as it's interesting that, you know, the president wades into the matter, states, governors themselves have to also appeal to each other's consciences. But let me go to what Governor El Rufi has said recently. He did say that his state has embarked on a 10 billion Naira cattle ranch project to centralize all herders in his state. He's also talked about the fact that the Central Bank of Nigeria was supporting the state with about 7.5 billion Naira for the success of that project. So they are actually going to build some ranching in Kaduna state. Now, in response to that, of course, Governor Keredulu is saying, well, if you are doing this in your state, why are you kicking against the fact that we are one way or the other trying to get these people to go into ranching? Now, I'd like to quickly go to what Governor Keredulu said. I'd like to just quote him directly. He said, firstly, there is no wisdom in condemning or banning open grazing, prohibiting the interborder movement of cattle in the north, including Kaduna, with accompanying disapproval of a law that gives bite to same in another part of the country. Then he goes ahead to say, perhaps it's apt to state clearly that the likes of El Rufi are already in a hysteric mode of escalating and indeed externalizing banditry, especially as the military onslaught against criminal elements and other terror variants suffices in the north. I'm trying to understand how and why a governor like El Rufi will be escalating or trying to export banditry to the south. Do you not think that that statement was a bit too sensitive in terms of, somewhat saying that maybe Governor El Rufi is trying to push banditry down to the south? Well, the reality is the reality and you can't shy away from it. That's what El Rufi has stated. And to an extent, I sympathize with him. I sympathize with him because it appears he is speaking out of frustration. Right now, definitely, as far as governor state is concerned, El Rufi is trying more than he can. I can assure you there is a great amount of insecurity in that particular place. But I haven't said that. El Rufi should also appreciate that the rest of the people were citizens of the federal public of Nigeria and that were states. But if we are states, we also have the responsibility to take our destinies into our hands. But a governor decides that, okay, I mean, we are not accepting this order. We do not yet see it this way. It does not mean that it will remain like that tomorrow. Now, I haven't said that the federal government gave me 10 billion. Let the federal government extend 10 billion to the rest of the federal states now, including and particularly the river states where I belong, unless it is the reaction of our government. Just by example now, several states were given the privilege and listed for the purpose of taking over this loan. And whatever, river state was excluded. What impression is trying to give? And of course, when it comes to that and somebody will say that... What if states like river states can actually afford to fund itself? River state is the second largest revenue received from the state coffers every month. They get almost the second largest if I'm not mistaken. After Lagos. So, I mean, why would they want to be giving them loans? And I'm not saying that the river states does not qualify for a loan, but maybe the states who are being given priority are states that are struggling. Have you thought about that? Well, 35 states, including Abuja, were given while listed exclusive of a river state. So if you think that is because we are self-sufficient state itself, be direct about it. Do not go about it, I mean, by way of innuendo. Be straight, categorical, that this is the reason. But don't do so because that is Lagos state and not river state. Why are they all enlisted? But that's not the issue we are talking about now. The most important thing is presidency is presidency because we entrusted you to have great amount of wisdom. We entrusted you with great amount of excellence. We entrusted Kando in relation to governance, in relation to administration, in relation to cohesiveness. Nigeria is a great country and we are not about to scatter. We also definitely are looking forward to a presidency that is going to ensure that we will not only scatter, but we are seeing not to scatter. These things are definitely not good elements in any particular form. Finally, let me just quickly because we're almost out of time. Why do you think that the emo state governor backpedaled on the issue of open grazing? Let's not also forget that emo state has had its fair share of internal problems, even though they're not mostly related to banditry, but there might be also pockets of violence related to other things. Why do you think the governor decided to push back on it after he had said yes? I can tell you clearly it's political. Emo state governor, I can tell you boldly that, look, you may be in embassy, but for goodness sake, go beyond the party lines. I mean, show to the whole world that in taking your decisions that you are people oriented, I'm not sure that Emo state governor has reflected that. Thank you. Well, I want to say thank you. Christy Taminolla is a lawyer. Thank you so much for being part of the conversation. We appreciate it. I'll always be here wherever you want me. God bless you. All right. Well, thank you all for staying with us. We'll take a quick break now. When we return, we discuss our family affairs stand on southern presidents. We'll take a short break.