 to Inside Leather History, a fireside chat. I'm Doug O'Keefe, the host and producer of the chats with Mistress Joanne Gatti. The fireside chats are a program of the Leather Archives and Museum. Now today, I'm doing an interview with Dee Chrissomalus, who is in Melbourne, Australia. Dee was the second Mr. International Transgender Leather. All right, Dee, would you tell us a little bit about, firstly, where you're from, a little bit about your life growing up? All right, so I was born in Melbourne, Australia, in a place called Fertree Gully, so closer to the Dandenong Hills. Let me see, I was the first of the elders of five children. A Greek background, obviously by my surname. My father is Greek, so, you know, at a younger age, there was plenty of family and food and all of those things. That sadly, due to my lifestyle or chosen paths, I didn't fit into the Greek side of things, so that was removed by the time I was 16. I started work at an early age. I left school and I started work at an early age to support my mother and the other kids, so I very much became the parent for a long time. And, you know, I suppose that's what I did, you know? That was kind of my childhood, didn't exist of a lot of childhood things. How did things evolve for you? You mentioned that you had a little bit of an issue with alcohol. So the first time I remember actually getting drunk was I was seven and I was allowed to have a little bit of alcohol at Christmas lunch. But I also remember that day because I was made to wear a dress and I was devastated. And that's how I remember that day. So for me, I found alcohol and I found out, on that point in time, I remember going, oh, this takes away all of my feelings on this. It all of a sudden, it didn't matter. It was only a small amount of alcohol, I'm sure, but it took away all of these horrible feelings that I had and uncomfortable feelings that I had. And so from that point on, I remember chasing alcohol. Well, I spent 23 years daily drinking except for 10 days and at the age of 39, I got sober. And that was a road in itself and took a fair bit. I went into AA program and with the support of a partner at the time, I managed to get sober. Wow. Yeah. So several years, obviously, into my sobriety, 37 to be exact, into my sobriety, I found that there were transgender guys around me had no idea. I didn't have any idea they were transgender, they were guys. So having found this out and I know it sounds like I lived under a rock, I felt like I did, but timing is everything. I approached one of them and asked questions to kind of get a feel about it, but not directly because at this point, I wasn't totally sure. I had put myself in the box of the lesbian world and that was the only place I felt not comfortable, but the only place I felt upfitted to a degree and all of a sudden, this world opened up to me. So hence, went to my GP who had taken me through my sobriety, so we'd known each other pretty strongly, walked into his office, turned around and said, I can't do this female thing. So I had gone by the name of Dee Always, not my birth name. So I had very much presented myself and was accepted very much in that way. I hadn't changed my pronouns at that point, but very much used male, sir, master style. So hence my journey began and it began very rapidly from that point. Let's back up and look at that a little bit. Tell me how that developed for you. So for me, from a very early age, I've always considered myself more tomboy-like, more male work-orientated, all of these things. I mean, from an early age, I was with my father pulling carburetors apart on cars and putting them back together. I was concreting and building fences and all of these things. So for me, from a very early age, I've always been that way. How long did you struggle with your identity before you were able to address that and do anything about it? I didn't actually really understand that I could transition and I know this is gonna sound crazy until I was 45. How well was this information known to you and information known in Australia at that time? Most of the guys or transgender guys within Australia at this point and in this point in time, they blended in and that's how they liked it. They just blended into the environment and weren't noticed and naturally because they passed well, they guys. So it was very difficult to get any actual, true feeling stuff. And I found that very difficult because there wasn't anything in Australia. That's fascinating. Go on. I'm just saying that's fascinating. It was very difficult and I'm not a stupid person but it was very difficult to actually get anything apart from factual and even the facts online were very difficult. How about the other guys you were mentioning? Was there no support structure among them? So there wasn't in Australia at all and especially not in Victoria or Melbourne. There were four guys that started meeting up and I jumped in not long after that and we started up a group called the FTM Shed now called the Shed. That group grew like talk about needing to fill a space. This group just took off and took off like wildfire and there were just so many guys coming and getting like we'd meet once a month face to face in a meeting room and we talk about the feelings of it all and haven't learned how to shave and all of these things that group still runs today and the best thing that ever happened here and I learned a lot and not only that shared a lot in my journey. What did you learn? Well, I learned that what I felt wasn't unusual. I mean, changing and going on to hormones and doing that kind of transition is not a simple transition. It's very scary. It's very emotional and not emotional. Learning that one of the things I always shared was when I got sober, I went to AA and I did the 12 step program. It saved my life for me and I learned in that program that there were hundreds of feelings because in my drinking, I had three and all of a sudden there were all these feelings and they actually had names. When I started my transition, what I felt was I lost some of those because I feel because as men, we don't necessarily need all of those. We look at them differently. We adjust to them differently. We express them differently and so, you know, talking about those adjustments from going from a female headspace to a male headspace and emotions and everything that evolve into that can only be expressed face to face, I believe and in a space that we can share safely without being seen as so different. Well, for example, what were some of the emotions that were different female to male? So for me, I express things in less words. I didn't go on and on about something I would just say, well, you know, that really annoys me. I don't like that. Instead of going into a whole essay on talking about it and that's why it annoys me. I see. It's also about the, it's really tricky to explain. It's also about the feelings behind that because it's almost like you feel it, you say it, it's gone where prior, I would probably have stewed about it over in my head for a week or more trying to figure out all the things over and over again and then get to a point where it comes out at a bad time. And now for me, it's very more direct. It's very much more direct and it's just simple and direct. An example, I remember if somebody's saying, and I know this is gonna go, you know, someone's saying, oh, well, it was, it's the real shame that you broke up with Wabla. And I remember turning around and going, well, you weren't in bed with us, you know, I walked away. You know, and that was kind of the start of the change of how I did things, which was very different. And it's also the feelings in it. The feelings don't stick. They don't stay rolling over and over and over and over again. They are there, spoken about, gone. Now, do you feel that that is a result of the hormones or is that a result of just, okay. No, it's the hormones. For me, it's the hormones, definitely. My way of thinking, my way of feeling is definitely. And it's also a big part of, I think, of me being true to me and not being as messy prior. Okay. No, I believe, I've, you know, to me, should have been born a male, I wasn't. So all of that time was very messy. And I think coming into being true and living with me. Yes. Before we explore that, you said you came back to the leather community. What was your experience in that before? It felt like a different world because when I was definitely into my drinking and at that point also I was into drugs because I needed to do the drugs to drink more. So it was a very messy world and my understanding and the way that it went. Look, it was true for me at that point in time, but it was certainly not the leather world I understand today. Tell us about the scene that you discovered in Melbourne at that time. A lot stronger, pansexual-wise at that point in time. It was a lot closer in unity, I suppose, at that point in time. And also remembering that I had, I did not have a lot to do with the gay leather community at this point in time. The gay men. So obviously this was my little corner over here and I felt definitely that's where I belonged. It was instant. That's where I belonged. Tell us about the next step. Tell us how you began to explore your true gender, your true self. So once I heard about it, obviously, what do you do? You Google. You Google and you Google and you Google. I was also living outside of Melbourne in a country town. Okay. So I wasn't in the thick of all of this, where I am now in Melbourne. I was in a country town, so I wasn't kind of walking the streets, going, whoa, I was very quiet about it. I was very much accepted as a lesbian at this point in the town, but I wasn't kind of ready to be out as possibly being transgender. And also at that point, I kind of went, well, I've done so much in my life, getting over sexual abuse, getting over alcoholism. I mean, do I really want to do this? Okay. I said to my GP, I can't do this female thing. He laughed and went about time, and that's exactly what he said. And I sat there going, I'm serious. He goes, so am I. Wow. And please remember, my GP and I had been on a 20-year journey, so he knew me. And that was it. I asked to see a counsellor. I wanted to make sure that my headspace was correct, and I seeked counselling for a few sessions just to make sure that this was the correct move. I went back to him and he rode out the hormones. How did it affect you emotionally, psychologically? In most cases during the first beginnings of the transition, I would always have almost two different thoughts on the same subject. There'd be one reaction and also another reaction, and it's like, well, which one is it? It's hard to explain. It's almost like I would have my old responses, and then I'd have another response because the hormones were changing. So was my thinking. And because my thinking, my feelings were changing, my thinking was changing, and so you almost feel like you're two split personalities. You almost can't trust anything. It's like when I was in the AA program, you know, the first 12 months ago, for the first 12 months, you make no major decisions, none, zero. Well, it's almost like you need to do that in the transition too, because you're not fully aware of, you're not fully in control at this point in time of what's going on in your head and your feelings. They're messy. They're messy. Well, for me, for me, and I don't believe it's just for me, but I will just talk for me. So psychologically, I just didn't know where to go. It was very confusing time and incredibly confusing time. I didn't know exactly who I was, but I knew I was heading there. Would it be very different, do you think, for a younger person? I think for the younger people, it's less of a rollercoaster. But I'd already done it, a chunk of life. Yeah. And also, I think there's not only the experience of life, but there's the awareness of it. And I think for, in the shed, we were having like 16-year-olds come in, starting their, well, they're in blockers and starting their transition. And I'm like, they have no, like their body is only going to really know the transition. Yeah. My body had already gone through this chunk, so yes, I believe the age made a difference, yes. I have infinite things to learn about all of this. So... Not easy. No, it isn't, but that's why I ask people who can teach me something. That's why I ask. So... But... Sorry. I was going to probably say, I think the hardest part in the transition, I mean, for very much, it's the internal trauma, like turmoil going on. But if you're younger, it's not so much. But it's certainly being excited for their firsts. And I'm going to say my... I remember the first time I passed in public. Passed in public, yeah. I was at Christmas lunch with my sister. The girls had gone to their fathers this year, so we were at an expensive place in South Bank, you know, and I mean expensive for Christmas lunch, because it was just us, you know, so we could splurge. And I remember saying to my sister, I've got to go to the bathroom. I've got the stairs. The male toilet, the male bathroom door was direct ahead. The female bathroom door was off to the right, at the top of the stairs. And I remember walking up, and as I walked up, there was another guy coming out of the male toilets and he held the door open. Mm-hmm. That was the most exciting thing. I ever felt it was like, I'm done, I'm in. Oh, wow. How wonderful. Because all of my life, all of my, and all of my life, I have always gone to the female toilets and been told I didn't belong there. Yeah, yeah. But I didn't belong in the male arena. And that had happened all my life and all of a sudden, here I am. Yeah. The door's open. But had to have been an amazing for you. Big moment. From what I'm trying to say here is it's those moments, you have to get really, really excited for anyone that's transitioning. It's those moments, because those moments are going to be in their head forever. Yeah, yeah. You mentioned that that was the first time you passed in public. But I read on your Facebook page that there was a magical moment of gratitude. Yes. Tell us about that, because it's very profound what you have there. I was fortunate enough to be able to get chest surgery early in my transition. Very fortunate. And it was actually due to being slack and not doing my tax returns. And when I finally got around to doing it, the taxation department owed me. It was like having money in the bank. So I was able to actually get my chest surgery done. The moment that I talk about in the gratitude I had was the moment that I had had my chest surgery. I'd come out of the hospital. I was recuperating at home. And I was allowed to have a shower for the first time after surgery. And I came out of the shower and I had an ensuite. So I had a huge mirror opposite the shower. And I came out of the shower and I looked. And I think and I still get goosebumps and the gratitude was huge because I looked at myself for the very first time I actually saw myself. And I will never, ever forget it. And it was an incredibly emotional moment as I stood there. And I don't think I'd actually ever really looked at myself in a mirror for all of the years prior. Like I glanced, but I didn't look. And this time I looked and I saw what I should be. Wow. And I still get emotional about it. Because finally I was on this path that was me. It was me. How amazing for you though. Oh, that has been incredible. Yeah, it was. Wow. Moving forward a little bit. Certainly. At what point did you become interested in perhaps running for a title in the community? I'm not actually really sure on the exact on how it began. But I am aware that the producer, Wayne, wanted a transgender leather title. And I think we really need to remember at this point in time, transgender, especially transgender guys, was not really well known. It wasn't like it is today. So allowing a title for transgender alone, I think it did cause a little bit of upset over there. But Wayne went ahead and stood for the transgender leather titles. So I was still going through a lot of adjustments and changes within my world. The leather community was still very much a part of my support and very much part of my world. But I never ever, like in Australia, I wasn't involved with the gay men's community, leather community. So I didn't know there was titles. Oh, I see. No, no, no, I'm going to step back a bit. Yes, I knew there were titles in the US because I'd gone over there to the master slaves in South Plains. I knew there were titles, but I never knew there was a title that I would run. OK, OK. They were all over your way, not over this way. So when Ian approached me, having met Ian a couple of times over there at South Plains. He was the first. Correct. Mr International Transgender Leather. He was the first one. OK. He was the first one. Correct. So when he actually messaged me and said, you need to run for this title. And I went laugh out loud in capital letters and sent it back. He goes, no, I'm serious. I went, yeah, very funny. Just went. So there was a little bit backwards and forwards on that. And and sadly, what happened in that was my fear of running for the title and not being worthy of it was so huge. I knew I had to run for it. Wow. I knew I had to step up. I didn't know how I was going to do that. But I knew that my fear was so big, I needed to do it. That's a profound statement. So I came back to him and said, yes, I will. Now, in me in that point in time when I said, yes, it was 26 days to the title. OK. Not much time to prepare. My body had changed quite dramatically. So my leathers or my boots in particular no longer fitted me. And I had quite a collection because I haven't finished the boots. So at this point in time, I prepared everything that I could and got on the plane and headed to Atlanta 26 days. I'd never run for a title. I'd only ever seen the master slave title at South Plains. Now, had you no knowledge of any kind of contests going on there in Melbourne? I mean, they have, however, many a year at this point in time, I there wasn't. So they had they had at this point in time, they had led Leatherman and that was it that I knew of. Did you go and see the contest? No, because I wasn't male at that point. Oh, I see. OK. I find fascinating that I'm unfortunately bringing an American point of view on this that you would not have felt welcome. To go into that situation, that's fascinating to me. My issue was me. OK, got it. My issue was I didn't feel male enough to be in the lead. I didn't know how I how I was going to coordinate going to the bathroom. I didn't know. All of those things and it was too, too big of an effort trying to figure out even and even I didn't even have a great deal of gay male friends in the leather community to actually take me in at this point. Wow. Wow. So it was unless it was an open day which they do have a couple of times a year where females are allowed in and to a certain amount, certain time. I wasn't comfortable in going in. Fascinating. Yeah, but it was from my point of view, my thought process. And that's valid. Yeah. So with very little preparation, you've now traveled all the way to the US. What did you even know about the Mr. transgender leather contest? Did you have any concept of what it was all about, what it did? Well, I knew I knew very much that it was an educational teaching awareness title. So that worked for me. I'd already done a huge amount of that kind of work within Australia anyway. So the basis of what they were requiring from me in regards to the title I was already doing. My biggest thing was standing in front of judges. Answering questions. And was I worthy of it? That was my biggest thing. I knew that there were certain sections that I had to, you know, kind of do. But I'm not I'm not I'm not a big person in standing up on a stage talking to people or standing in front of people talking to even though I had done this, it's not my comfort zone. Right. Did you ever discuss with Ian why he wanted you to do this? What he saw in you? I don't know. I think sometimes you just connect with people from a level, a sole level that you'll never understand. It just happens. Oh, OK. And and I think because it's an international title and he really wanted Australia to be a part of that. He went for it. He went for it and he believed in me more than I believed in me. How was the contest conducted? There was the meet and greet, obviously. So you meet and greet the judges. They check you out, see how you perform, you know, all of these things. And of course, I don't drink. So, you know, I'm hanging out at the pub, you know. Once again, I was supported. So, you know, I was looked after. And, you know, then there was obviously the the interviewing side of it. That went for for quite some time. I remember standing there, you know, presented him all over standing in front of the judges. And with my hands behind my back. And by the time they finished, I couldn't move my legs because I stood so stiffly in that position that I could just couldn't release them. And it was very interesting because the questions and some of the questions they were asking about, like, so, you know, one of the questions in particular, and I remember them asking, so who mentored you? I went mentored me where? Like, I didn't understand that question because I didn't understand what a mentor meant. Oh, I see. OK. Because here we didn't have that. You know, just kind of, you know, kind of stumbled along, followed maybe, you know, somebody pretty well. So we didn't kind of really have that when, you know. So that was one of them. I remember they asked, you know, can you name so many US leather events? Luckily, I knew them. Don't know why or how, but I did. So there were questions that didn't relate necessarily to me being an Australian, but they adjusted well and they heard me, which was fantastic. OK. So that was really, really great. It was very intense. The interviewing, because, you know, they're all prominent leather people that I kind of pretty well knew. Fish. Do you remember how many contestants there were? Yeah, I do. There was only one of me. Oh, OK. OK. OK. But you still have to hit all the marks to win that. That's what they said. That's what they said. Oh, and look, you know, I know people kind of go, well, there's only one will actually, you know, it doesn't work that way. Right. You do have to. You do have to. You do have to hit the marks. And, you know, honestly, I earned it. Yes, I believe that. What did you do during your title year? What did you do with that title? Most of most of my my work or education, apart from online, was actually in Australia. It wasn't until the next year that I had the opportunity to actually do more. So I felt like I didn't really do enough. And that's not what anyone else said. That was my personal side on it. I would have loved to have done a lot more, but I didn't feel like I did any more than what I was already doing within and also remembering at this point in time, too, I still wasn't in the lead. I still wasn't amongst, you know, the gay leather men at this point in time, either. So the title was really here, wasn't even recognised a great deal. Certainly amongst, you know, my smaller weather community and pansexual side of it. And they were very happy. And the, you know, the F to M shed were stoked that I got a look, even though they didn't even understand it, because they're not leathermen. You know, there was lots of excitement on that basis. And I came back to, you know, my leather family and peers who, you know, did a covering ceremony and, you know, was presented all in that way. But at this point, the title itself here. Wasn't really anything. That's disappointing to hear. You're one of, to my knowledge, you're one of only three international title holders from Australia. If there are more, I am not aware of that. No, I don't think there is more. There is. I think there's only three. Yes, only three. Yeah, there was the second IML from Sydney. Yep. I am ignorant of his name at the moment. There's you. So am I. And then there's girl, Ange, who was an IMSL. That's correct. Yeah, correct. That title should have received infinitely more attention. But at this point in time also, and I've got it, yes, I agree. I was sad about it. But at this point in time to like titles weren't big here either. You know, they really weren't. It was it was very minimum and it was very isolated to the. The lead and the gay Leatherman there. Like, you know, even the rubber title didn't exist. Like all the ones that are happening in in Brisbane and Sydney and Adelaide now, these didn't exist at this point in time. Oh, I understand. OK. So the type, the only titles that I'm aware of. Fully. Was at the ledge. OK. Wow. You held that title, though, for much longer than it was originally intended. How long were you the international title holding there? Well, sadly, I'm the last one. Yeah, only the two of the following. Correct. So the following year. No, I managed to tick all the boxes for both titles. So my title wife, Tiff, and I held the title over for another year. And in that particular year, I got to do a lot more. I, you know, I judged I at GM, you know, GLA. I, you know, traveled around further. I presented it beyond and, you know. So while I was over there for that judging of the next taking, you know, my step down, I was able to do some extra stuff and, you know, get up on stage and talk about the title and so forth, which was which was a fantastic opportunity. And I felt like I was able to tick off some of the boxes I would have loved to have done on my first year. Sadly, after that, it's due to I'm going to say personal reasons the title producers stopped. And I don't know those exact details, and it's not my story to tell. But it did stop. And the sad part, I think, about that was about a year later, I had got approached by so many trans guys wanting to run for the title and wanted to run anymore. And I mean, you know, like messages and messages and all I could say was I don't know what to say. But that was really sad because at this point, the trans guy community and also awareness had grown so much. There was a lot more comfortability in stepping out. We see numerous trans title holders now. What are your thoughts on that? I mean, to my knowledge, we have at least two people from IML. I know. And it's and it's fantastic. I mean, the courage it takes to step up having trans transitioned and not having certain parts and that whole body dysphoria, you know, because, you know, it's real. Yeah, you know, you don't you don't feel whole. And that journey and that thought process is always with you and to be able to step on that stage, especially IML, especially IML, to step on that stage and own it. And then walk away with the title spray of takes courage. Do you how do you feel in the in the local community now? So that's come a long way, you know, it took. It took a journey for me. To get comfortable in the lead, which is gay male space, leather and rubber and all the all the bears and everyone to be comfortable to walk in and out of there without a hitch. I'm part of a small leather group or just a few of us guys that, you know, are all into the leather that we like out our style of leather. And we come together monthly, you know, quietly. And we just do things amongst the lead and the man and man house. And and. And I can walk in and out without a problem. And once again, as I said, the lead don't don't have a problem with that. It was my journey to get there and be comfortable with walking in as one of the guys. One of the biggest things I found for myself was once I decided I wanted to go there, I wanted it all speed ahead. And that caused me a lot more grief than going, OK, this is my next step. This is my next step and just doing those steps and being excited about the little wins, the little wins the first time you pass the first time you get called he. You know, the first time, you know, you go into a shop and you buy a shirt that you've always bought, but they've automatically assumed now you're a male, you know, all the first, all the little firsts because they are exciting and share those, share those everywhere. What's the biggest misconception about you? It takes me a while to warm up and so I may seem cold. But I'm not. I just don't know how to do it. Why did you agree to this interview? Because I want the title to actually go down in history and you seem like a really nice person to talk to. I've watched I've watched a lot of your your your chats and I like I like the kind of more relaxed manner in which it's done and it's kind of fun. So when I want it recorded, I think it needs to be. Well, thank you very much. I appreciate it. Thank you. Thank you. So that's why. How do you want to be remembered by the leather community? When fear presents itself, I walk forward into it and I will always, always offer any help and education that I can. How do you want to be remembered by the trans community? To make a safe space. For those that. Needed it's a safe, just a safe space, just a safe space for those that come up, you know. Behind me, because I didn't I didn't have that. I didn't have that part of it and to be remembered as someone who was up front, allowing that to happen for those that came behind me. Yes.