 Welcome back to the original gangsters podcast. I'm Jimmy Buccellato here in my home studio with my colleague and close friend the intrepid Scott Bernstein. Hey now and Before we get going here with our episode just want to remind everyone, please follow us on social media Please subscribe to our audio podcast. Please subscribe to our video channel And if you're new to the channel just remind I remind people that we have sometimes different content So we have some audio episodes that are not on the video channel We have some video episodes that are not on the audio channel So please consider jumping back and forth some multimedia if you want to consume all of our content And again, we appreciate your your support and following us and thank you for the kind words anyhow, we're starting a new kind of Series here on the podcast the the life and crimes of and then we pick a significant person from the underworld So far we we've produced episodes the life and crimes of Nikki Scarfo Most recently the life and crimes of Joe Massino So we like to mix it up on the show sometimes we look at current events sometimes historical case studies Sometimes we have guests that we interview So we like to mix it up in this case historical case studies of major underworld figures devote an episode to them and If you have some ideas for people that you'd like for us to record an episode about please share it with us on social media and Today's episode. I'm pretty excited about is a taco bowman who was We're here in Detroit. I mean just an icon in Detroit, but even nationally Internationally, he was a major figure in the outlaws motorcycle club He was the local president here in Detroit at one point then became national president just a really fascinating individual compelling person of Very iconic in underworld. I mean people people really revered him. It was a game changer. I mean someone that Really made a mark for himself and and establish a legacy that was very unique in the sense that he took the Paradigm of what a biker boss was and kind of flipped it on its ear in terms of his ability to evolve and Metamorphosize he was like I like to describe him as like a chameleon somebody that could Change the way they look and acted around different people to Ingratiate themselves and it was just as someone like taco bowman I was just as comfortable sitting there with his, you know, his club lieutenants long hair tattooed Boisterous drinking Drugging and whatnot and then the next day cut his hair put on a three-piece suit get in a chauffeur limousine and go meet with the Italian mafia or go meet with a A legitimate business man or go to like a parent-teacher conference, right? Yes, and it's because kids to private school moved into the Detroit Mafia is kind of They're there their compound there. They're the town that they controlled for Even back to now, you know gross point a lot of them are out of there by now, but yeah, there's still kind of that flavor of Organized crime and in the gross points, which is the real real affluent area just east of the city of Detroit and It's where the Detroit Mafia the toko was a really crime family had their couple blocks middle sex Balfour Charlevoy Where they they all lived like all next to each other in mansions And and that's where taco Bowman who had up very Fruitful relationship with the Detroit Italian Mafia. They had some ups and downs. We'll talk. Yeah, we'll get it We'll get but that's where eventually he moved when he became a Biker godfather. Yeah, and again and this is to your point about how he could blend in I mean, he was this is a very blue blood kind of affluent suburb and he and He didn't raise any flags at all. I mean he just blended in no one neighbor is neighbors loved him They had it right. He was out cutting his lawn every you know every weekend. He was you know him and his Family would show up in support of their kids events at the schools Yeah, I believe he took he took the path or fouled in the footsteps of the toko's really crime family in terms of donating, you know money to the church and to charities to try to Craft a kind of an alternate image as a benevolent community leader Yeah, I think I think we look talk about these underworld figures. That's usually this the smartest ones are the ones who are able to Integrate into mainstream society. It's usually this the smart place So so this is an outlaw biker episode taco bowman a legends legend We we have some interesting insight here because we'll get to it Scott is that actually had some some direct interaction with him I've talked to some people that that knew him and Both on the record off the record. So anyhow, let's get into a taco bowman You want to you want to start us off Scott some of his early years, maybe he grew up in Marysville, which if you're from the Metro Detroit area It's about an hour To the hour and 15 minutes north of Detroit in the in the Port Huron area Sink their county I think right that's that yeah, okay. Yeah, it's it's like a it's like a farm town Yeah, like, you know corn fed white boys Yeah, who you go play Marysville football you get a lot of you know six foot four 300 pounders on the line that you know work their dad's farm and woke up at six in the morning the Gary Bales of a Yeah, and with the with the excerpts now people actually those areas are starting to come developed now Yeah, another more people are leaving the Detroit area, but whatever eventually made his way to Detroit late 60s early 70s and and hooked up with the outlaws under Lenny Braun Lenny the blonde who was I Don't think he was the first Detroit outlaw boss, but I could be wrong I apologize to any outlaw historians out there that that That would tell me that he was but I know he was very early on and was someone that was integral in building the outlaw brand in Detroit Southeast Michigan the Midwest as well as an expansion into Canada and taco was close to Lenny Braun, but he was also eventually Mentored by the club's international president stairway, Harry Henderson Was he an Ohio guy? He was another day in Ohio guy. I think he also had Ties or links to Indianapolis, okay But I think he was from Dayton. I'm not sure if he had parts of chapters in both Ohio and Indiana But we know he was from Dayton and he was the president and the international president was the first person to take the outlaws outside of the United States stairway, Harry was and Taught taco You know leadership skills in terms of not just running a regional regime, but how to oversee a International biker club taco eventually became his vice president When stairway Harry had to step down or resign Because of legal issues that he that he wanted to concentrate on he couldn't keep his entire focus on Continuing to expand and build the outlaws which by the 80s early 80s when taco was taken over for stairway, Harry I think it was 83 or 84 The outlaws were on the ascent Starting to They had been at war with the Hells Angels for a decade at that point the war between the Hells Angels and outlaw started in 74 I think we're 73 or 74 but I think by the 80s in terms of numbers and Overall With their tentacles spread on a more Macro level They were starting to rival the Hells Angels more than they had in the past and they weren't I guess look they weren't little brother anymore And then when taco took over he took that into high gear And you know ramped up Hostilities between the outlaws and the Hells Angels Put a heavy emphasis down in Florida which he saw as as Fertile and Key territory For their further outlaws brand and Just became Revealed as he was more than just a crime lord I heard you know some law enforcement say he had almost like a cult leader Control or mysticism where he would draw people in and they would become Subservient to him more so than a crime lord almost like this the godlike figure Yeah, um, I want to talk about that also at some point like that the Charisma and things like that But I just want to go back to some some chronology here But I think he's before the big push in the 1980s Wasn't he the Detroit president as early as what 1970 right? I mean it was pretty early You think you think it was early as 70. I'm not saying you're wrong. Yeah, I don't know the exact date Someone can fact-check us on that. I think Lenny. I think that was still when Lenny Braun was president. Okay Okay, I Know at some point in the 70s Taco Bowman took over the Detroit Yeah, this is a Detroit news article says he was he was president of Detroit 1970. Okay. Well, I don't know maybe brawned At least in terms of the interviews with the press in the 70s Lenny Braun was the one that was presented as more of the Outpiece I guess of that And he's the one who attempt maybe I was more of the late 60s. Maybe I'm messing up my timelines. Yeah, probably Did a double check before we jumped on this? pod, but I know Lenny's the one who tried to you know Move the outlaws headquarters onto that island Where you had it was like a hippie commune for a while Yeah, we talked about that in the brawn episode the quitter we did about him It was like a counterculture hub. So yeah, the Detroit news is citing him as president as early as 1970 then Yeah, so he'd be he was president for you know over a decade when he took over Well when he became vice president and then eventually president of that of international and then he moved that headquarters of Outlaws International Club they moved to Detroit. It had always been in Chicago or with, you know, a stairway Harry a stairway Harry In Ohio before that but for the first time in the early to mid-80s it moved to Detroit and it stayed there until The late 90s early 2000 and a little bit of general history I'm not a historian about, you know, a lot of Lakers, but Chicago was always the traditional hub before taco because that's where they start in Illinois going back as far back as the 1930s I think maybe 1935 someone can check me on that but the Was it the McCook? Yeah, yeah McCook outlaws and and they started off Traditional like just guys who like to ride motorcycles. Yeah. Yeah, and Then then we get like sort of post Hollister Right, the big the big rally in California where the term one percenter comes from and then the outlaws just like the Hells Angels They kind of run with that their branding and an image of we're not just motorcycle enthusiast We're like some bad motherfuckers We're not and then by and by the 70s it had transformed into fully vertically integrated criminal organizations Yeah, that's what I was going to say about the ask you about about the Detroit scene because Now this is you know, this is going to be the the narrative from law enforcement So I know we're gonna get comments that that that's not what happened But this is the narrative from law enforcement based on the cases that they made that by the 1970s The outlaws Transitioned into more being involved in more of these criminal activities that Scott is talking about extortion gambling prostitution narcotics and It's pretty well documented that during this time as part of that Evolution into something that's that's more more heavily involved in criminal activities that they formed close relationships with the Italian Mafia here in Detroit The the toko's a really family so can we can we talk about that like the 70s? What was that vibe like and and taco kind of being the liaison and and Tapping into that network. Yeah, and I think he again was a was an innovator and a pioneer in that he Created a template for how a big city biker club can work hand-in-hand With that city's Italian Mafia to both parties benefit, you know like that it's it's a there's a lot of symbiosis and Mutual reward if done properly and I know it's it's there they're too kind of volatile You know if you're gonna make a you know a chemistry analogy See it to volatile elements that you put together and you know if it goes wrong It can go really wrong, but taco You know came up with the blueprint on how to make it go right and I think that Started to spread around the country that help, you know, there had been interactions between LCN and Hells Angels But Taco was really the first outlaw to formalize and Flash out and and fully embrace this Just this relationship and and these these ties and links that both sides could leverage to their advantage So yeah, he did it through the jack-a-loneys Which are the the Detroit the jack-a-loney brothers were the Detroit Mafia Street bosses From the late 50s all the way into the 2000s Anthony Tony Jack jack-a-loney and his and his younger brother And equally formidable mafia figure. He was no lackey or no second fiddle veto Billy Jack jack-a-loney and Billy Jack was The good cop to Tony Jack's bad cop and Billy Jack was the one who was really kind of getting his hands dirty with the rank and file and it was Billy Jack's crew that Taco aligned with Something that's interesting. I started to interrupt but also just to give people a sense of the landscape the socio-economic landscape. It's really interesting to me So you have the 1970s Taco Bowman outlaws emcee their headquarters at that that time I believe was on was was on the east side of Detroit. You have the jack-a-loneys from soft war soft war. Yeah But 1970s Detroit at that point is a majority black city majority African-American city Less so than now but still by the by the 1970s like we're saying taco He's living close point Italians are living in gross point these affluence suburbs So it's really interesting. You have these two white the Italians for all intent purpose Races of social construct Italians considered white at that point. Well Italians all of Bikers two white organizations Kind of holding it down together in a primarily black city. I don't know. I don't know where I'm going with that I just think it's interesting to point out. I think but to color that up a little bit it part of the benefit for taco and the outlaws in Making that alliance with the jack-a-loneys is that by aligning with the jack-a-loneys that provides you access to the African-American Criminal faction that exists that existed back then that were a Sub-sub-set or sub-unit of the jack-a-loneys. Yeah, and even if you didn't want to work with them if you had any issues with them You could easily solve those issues through the mafia through through the through the jack-a-loneys So so it was a smart in more ways than one a very smart. Yeah tactical decision to get in good with the Italians and not and We'll get to this event end of the episode and not to get to far ahead of ourselves, but it's like history is repeating itself now With what's going on with the outlaws and in trying to combat the pagans blue wave where they're Resolidifying their connections across the country with the Italian mafia and To I know it's not the exact same point you were making but some of these Some of these alliances that the outlaws are making in addition to the Italian mafia have to do with black streakings so it's like You know any any way you can Protect yourself or turn a buck You're you're gonna ignore the fact that you might be different skin color or believe different, you know They have different philosophies on life or religions or whatever. Yeah. Yeah, no for sure so and it's interesting also this time period the 70s because Like my understanding is that taco is a very hands-on Biker president at this point and and I'm not comfortable saying who it is But I have an uncle who used to be used to be friends with taco and Frank the bomb from that from the toko's really family and they would hang out and Yeah, they You know taco and Frank the bomb were like what you would imagine what you imagine they were they were like some bad motherfuckers Going out to the bars together, you know getting into fisticuffs with with other dudes Sometimes a knife is pulled a gun is pulled They were tough fucking dudes. Yeah That's why I understand Frank the bomb who do Jimmy's referencing long time. Detroit mafia lieutenant enforcer acting capo Frank bomberito. They called him Frank the bomb He was billy jack alone. He's longtime best friend and right-hand man and he was As street as street could be and he was somebody that could get along if you were a street no matter What age race and religion if you were in the street doing dirt he could get along with you um, and so he became The jack aloney the Detroit mobs liaison to both the bikers and the african-american uh under worlds and him and taco uh Flock, you know birds of a feather flock together and they gravitated to each other really early on in the 1970s and became very very close And like you said, they were they were rabble rousers Both guys that wanted to keep a their finger on the pulse Of the streets, you know at that point frank was just a soldier. Uh, he didn't really reach He became billy jack's acting cop when billy jack went to prison in the 90s and in 2000s So at that point frank was just a soldier and taco was a boss, but um they they were You know, they were nitty gritty. They they did not want to Um taco and I don't know if taco. I don't think taco moved to girls point until the 80s Yeah, right right not in the right in the 70s. I think he still lived in detroit Yeah, so so, you know, they were guys that were Getting their hands dirty They were very very Tied in the street activity and and being with the rank and file um and and frank introduced taco to that world and taco introduced frank to that world that you know the biker world and um They they spent a lot of time together. They were more than just a business associates They became very close friends and and socialized together and vacation together and so forth but I mean and as you point out Moving forward in the chronology taco is someone who is not doesn't seem content to just be a detroit guy that that he has aspirations for regional leadership national leadership international leadership, so if you I don't know if you want to yeah, well, he had a vision And again if you want to tie it into today I think there's a lot of analogies to be made with cone and the barbarian in new york I see him as a modern day taco bowman what he's doing with the pagans is kind of exactly what taco did with the outlaws I mean stairway harry got You know started moving in that direction expanding across the pond in in um and getting outside the u.s. Borders, but um What cone and barbarian What cone and Richter is doing right now It echoes a lot of what taco was doing in the 80s and building the the outlaws brand and and putting in and driving them so they have Ties and tentacles everywhere not just in the biker community, but You know in the police departments in the in the courts in the Um with other criminal factions with illegitimate businesses Um and and making them and building them beyond the biker stereotype Yeah, and and also, um and being being being business minded all about their business. Yeah, um and also And I wonder if some of that influence came from hanging around the italians. I don't know but it wouldn't uh It wouldn't surprise me. I mean we we know other case studies where that happens like here in detroit not to totally go down another rabbit hole, but um Larry chambers, you know for the chambers brothers infamous african-american crime organization here He did time with some italian dudes and he he talks about this in his own man in his own Uh, what do you call it? He I don't know if he published it, but his um memoirs Yeah, that that he learned a lot from the italians in prison federal prison Yeah about how to come out and and run shit right and organize them. They called a marlowe or uh rambo Uh when marlowe chambers came out of prison Uh for again, we're going down a rabbit hole But just to give people context if anybody has seen the movie new jack city and what nino brown did at the carter which was the Uh housing project that they took over and turned into a 24 seven drug imporium That was based on what larry chambers did when he came out of prison learned what he did from the italians and immediately went and bought a A apartment building that was called the broadmoor And turned it into what became dramatized as the carter So yeah, maybe larry chambers might be a good example for another life To me the the the through line here is that And we're biased we're we're detroiters, but it my research tells me That in detroit specifically more so than other areas There's a certain entrepreneurial spirit That exists within the street hustlers no matter what race religion What faction you're in where The the goal is to be Larger than life and bigger than just Where you grew up from or where your block is or where your organization is headquartered out of um the idea is to keep pushing the envelope and and There's there's always There was no method of the there's method to the madness There's I mean, I I would say that a lot of this correlates to and maybe I don't want to annoy people I'm gonna get pretty academic here. I think it totally makes sense when you look at this is the motor city the big three Yeah, I I think I think it's in the I think it's in the bloodstream of of this area What what you're talking about people aren't fit. It's not like And I'll do respect to la in new york and the street factions that exist there But people in detroit for the most part over the they ain't fighting over city blocks They're they're fighting So they can have enough money to go By five mansions in the suburbs have a island of their own in the Bahamas and travel to europe on a rate Like that's the goal for guys whether they'd be black guys italian guys Or biker guys in detroit and that I think taco embodied that That you know, he wanted to do it big and he wanted to do it smart and he wanted to do it organized and he had this This vision and again the same way that conan rector rickter right now has a vision for the pagans Taco had this vision to to build the outlaws into this midwest monolith Uh that that had control over florida and control over in europe and australia new zealand and canada um And rival, you know Do what the hell's angels do but do it better well, that that's where I want to transition to because I agree. So he's ambitious. He wants not only a regional powerhouse national international Okay, that's fine. Well, here's the problem the hell's angels have already have already done that and so We're going to see some some serious conflict and and and disagreements over You know territories and things like that a lot of it was keeping the hell's angels out of the midwest in places like milwaukee and chicago and Detroit they never came in recently. There's a allegedly a hell's angel chapter Up north or out in mount pleasant um, they're you know, i'm the hell's angels website. It says something but The hell's angels For the most part have always been that's pretty far from detroit. I mean, it's obviously michigan's the midwest But that's pretty far from detroit. Ohio. Ohio, wisconsin, illinois. There were very very brutal brutal wars Carbombing attacks murders that sprinkled across the 80s and 90s with the outlaws Keeping, you know, keep trying to keep the hell's angels out of those areas. Yeah, not so much Didn't really happen in detroit, but chicago it got oh, hi, oh, hi cleveland uh, chicago, mowaki there was a murder in tolito um in the uh Late 70s early 80s where you had the whole hell's angels administration with sonny barger came to town for the trial and i believe it was a it was an outlaw that was Trying to uh, that was making their bones and killed a I think it was a cleveland hell's angel in tolito or maybe it was a tolito hell's angel But there was a trial and sonny barger and his whole crew came in and rented a bunch of houses in tolito for the trial so that so that was in That was as up until the uh, the chapter got opened Here in detroit a couple years ago by the hell's angels and we don't know what the status of that chapter is We really haven't heard anything about them. Um outside of some Uh, some fbi wires or da wires last year within arrest of a guy that was allegedly selling guns To outlaws who were talking about going to war with the hell's angels But other than that we really had hadn't heard about much activity The closest the hell's angels had ever gotten to detroit was that little tolito incident And I think it was 79 or 80, but isn't that isn't that part of the strategy to Expand not only in the midwest, but the american south canada internationally Is because otherwise the hell's angels are going to take over everything eventually, right? Isn't that part of the right so and just for people i'm sure everybody knows is i'm not trying to belittle our audience, but hell's angels west coast club started in california um Eventually came east in the 70s and set up shop in new york and I believe boston um, but Did not have a big midwest presence because of the outlaws so I don't want to say it was a a peace conference, but uh like a detente between the hell's angels and the outlaws Happens where taco bowman actually sits down with a high ranking member of the hell's angels Our friend george christy who's been on our show before he was a major player in the hell's angels And and he and taco this is pretty remarkable. They actually they actually sit down Like face-to-face and have uh a conversation. I I don't want to say a peace summit That's an overstatement, but at least to lower the temperatures. I think it was over a couple of days yeah, um and According to george and according to other people i've spoken to It looked like for a period of time that they were gonna come to some agreement some type of ceasefire and then kevin o'neill aka spike Who was a shot caller out in um, milwaukee? Put the kibosh on it I know I misidentified him in a in a previous episode. I was calling him spike. Oh donnell. I apologize to all my irish friends I'm not trying to Oh donnell o'neill are totally different. I'm i uh, so this is i'm talking about spike o'neill not um, just want to correct myself, but uh, he convinced taco to uh walk away Even though it looked like they were making some headway in um Putting putting you know letting bygones be bygones, but all it all it did after that was was Pop off even crazier Yeah, and it gets it gets really murky too because I think around the same time and this seems like always be the case They're also Undercover informants who are trying to fan the flames, right? So if like george and taco are trying to like lower the temperature It doesn't help that you have informants You know Trying to escalate violence because that I mean that's what law enforcement wants and then they can go prosecute these guys so But so in that environment it was pretty remarkable that those two would sit down. I think so so that's at like the national level Very macro It's the same time going a little bit more micro in the local level On the home front for taco bowman his At that point about a 15 to 20 year relationship that he had had that had been very fruitful with him and the italian mafia Go south for a couple months And he has a contract put on his head by the jackalones and We don't want to go too far down the rabbit hole here, but just to give people a little bit of context Based on Intelligence files and informants and wire taps it looks like And people we've talked to right and people we've talked to right of the record It not everything was what it seemed Um on its surface with that it looks like Tony jackaloni and billy jackaloni who were you know the final word on the street It looks like they were manipulated a little bit by their protégé and reputed current detroit mafia don jackie jackaloni Who I think there was some jealousy um with taco bowman. I think there was I think there was some fear um with taco bowman and I think taco sensed that and tried to test it um and began pushing in on some of jackie's dice games and card games and some other shakedowns that they were doing And kind of instead of handling it himself Uh, he ran to his dad and his uncle And if again if you believe the wire taps um that were were were put forth in the operation Game tax that historic bus that took down the whole detroit family in the 90s It looks like jackie was Shading the truth to billy and tony But what was going on And convince billy and tony that taco should have should be hit um When I think other people believed if jackie was More buttoned up in his business in handling his business There wouldn't have been any issues Yeah, let me add a few more things to this so Actually the fbi gets wind of this and they go to taco and warn him that that the italians Have a contract out on him and they actually ask taco to cooperate And if if if you can imagine a guy like taco bowman, what's he gonna? Tells him to get fought right. He tells him don't worry about me You know So that doesn't go anywhere, but it is interesting that they that they they tried to tip him off um, and then We also know that The jack alone. He's interestingly enough Try to contract it out to another faction within the toko's a really family specifically tony's a really faction who are who that's how we know about this because they were all They weren't wired up the car. They were driving in was wired up Yeah, so they were they there was a wire up on that car for literally two and a half years I think between 91 into early 94 um, and they had two and a half years of shop talk And this was when they got the contract and they're talking to each other being like this doesn't sound right Like why would we be doing this? What do we basically what do we want to war? We're gonna kill this guy and we're gonna have all the outlaws coming after us. These are on these are unhinged You know mentally unstable criminals. They don't they're very impulsive um and there was Not just talks between them in the car But they had to go to some sit-downs And while they were driving to the sit-down They would have their brother their dad Tony z You know their uncle the actual underboss And you could hear them discussing this and it was basically I don't know who got assigned the job, but someone from that faction had was sent to tony jack to explain their feelings on what was happening and feeling that They were basically kind of being sold a bill of goods by jackie and even if jackie Had some merit to what he was saying What he was asking you to do In their mind wasn't the right move right Yeah, it's it go go ahead. I'm sorry. Go ahead. I know they cleared it up with tony jack and then tony jack reached out to billy who reached out to frank the bomb And there was a series of sit-downs and it got it got settled. Yeah, it's really I love I love the the machinations and minutiae of these situations were two groups Overlapped so the the members of this really faction First of all to scott's point. They something doesn't smell right here Right like in terms of the reason why we would do this second of all They're thinking this is very foolish to start a war with the outlaws motorcycle club Very foolish because it's not just a detroit chapter right taco is a big deal nationally Like you're gonna have the whole fucking nation of outlaws nation come after us. That's not smart but third of all Back to this idea of taco was a charismatic guy Those guys actually like taco and and and they and they they didn't want to kill him He he was a popular guy with to your point the rank and file of the the italian mafia They like taco and they didn't feel good about this And um everything that I've read and people that I've talked to back to his idea of being a charismatic leader was People seem to genuinely like him even to the extent of People in law enforcement You can look at the record people detroit pd fbi Have this kind of begrudging admiration for taco where there's a you know Like you sort of like the guy But you have an obligation in law enforcement to go after him, but he was a really well liked Person but it also it also shows you How taco's mind works That he didn't care that jackie jackaloni was the prince No, I mean this is Not pro jackie, but this is like I guess I guess it is in jackie's defense in terms of this situation where Taco saw jackie in taco's mind jackie was a weak link Jackie wasn't like his dad and uncle Taco looked at him as a silver spoon gangster Who he felt he could muscle? Yeah Now whether or not jackie should have been prepared or should have reacted differently We could that could be debated till the cows come home But the fact is taco felt like I don't I might be boys with the jackalones We might be doing great business together. I love frank the bomb. I love billy. I love tony But I see a weak spot that I can take it that I can take advantage for myself and my group Yeah, social Darwinism right by moving jackie out of certain, you know spots in the underworld certain games Most of this was over dice games um But I thought there was a there was even um an argument made by this really faction that That the way jackie Made the case is not what was happening Right. Well, I don't think I I still I still don't think we know for sure Yeah, what the situation really was right right, um that that taco wasn't necessarily Muscling in because that was the way jackie framed it and um, it was disrespectful and he was muscling in And I've heard that but that's not exactly what was what was happening And and maybe jackie was was misleading Because he jackie wanted taco out of the way for his own reasons. Yeah And uh, you know those Those games The outlaws did security for those games. Yeah, so it wasn't like The outlaws were coming out of nowhere out of left field. It's like they were helping with the games Yeah, what I heard was That part of the what was part of what was being sold to the jackaloni brothers by jackie as a shakedown was The outlaws asking for a legitimate compensation package. Yeah or bringing Customers and for providing security. Yeah, right, right, which is not unreasonable I mean and that they're not well he was holding back on them as opposed to Then moving in and saying jackie move move out. We're taking over this whole game. Yeah, but with back to like taco such overall situation so things that the Tenuous peace with the hell's angels doesn't last he knows the italians have a contract out on him So now taco is going to be more elusive like where he's traveling and he's going to have he's going to beef up security And uh, you know, he seems to be aware of the the the high stakes here bulletproof Rolls Royce. Yeah, right. That's right That's an example So he's taking this pretty seriously all this stuff Yeah, and he sets his sights on florida and he had had his sights on florida You know early on in his in his reign He sends A guy that had been running the Toledo chapter Wayne Hicks who they called Joe black He sends Joe black down there to open a fort waterdale chapter and really plant the flag for florida being outlaw territory and for people wanting to come into florida as bikers having to go through the hell's angels and Joe black has a guy his right hand is a guy dk lamunian who is a You know pieces this is rogues these guys are on like a rogues gallery like a rag tag group of of uh, you know scrappy grungy grimy You know underworld figures that like jimmy say they they fit everything you would think about a biker That they fulfill those you know, they fill those stereotypes and then there's another guy down in florida who's the regional president Bill pilgrim they call a wild bill and those guys are tacos Boots on the ground down in florida um At the same time You have a big hell's angels push into Chicago and milwaukee um and taco Orders The orders go out to combat that infringement at all costs and a lot of that comes in We've talked about this before in biker uh content about you know how Logistically the biker political pecking order is constructed where you have the kind of the mother clubs the the the name brand clubs and then you have support clubs or puppet clubs which are smaller lesser known clubs that are Underneath the banner of the bigger club and are kind of beholden to that bigger club and I know in in um In chicago they set up a a subset of the hell's angels called the hell's henchmen And uh throughout 93 94 95 there were series of murders and car bombings One of them took place up in rockford, which is in between milwaukee and chicago um, so there was You kind of had Once the italian Um issue was resolved At one point. I guess he was fighting wars on three fronts. He was fighting with the italian or four fronts if you count the government Uh, he's he's fighting the italians. He's got what's going on in chicago milwaukee And he has what's going on down in florida, but once the italian situation is resolved and this is 93 94 He's got these, you know midwest down south and and quite a bit of Brewing tensions between them and rival clubs well in florida, I think the outlaws Viewed it as their as their territory the the challenge was the warlocks were already there and they were um, you know a vulnerable club with their own in their own right and they were Um, I believe they were aligned with the hell's angels. Yeah, um, and there's there was even Some evidence brought to taco's attention that that the president of the warlocks At least this is from this was in the court documents I don't know if people have insight they can share with us that maybe that wasn't true But according to the investigation that uh, he wanted to patch over With the hell's angels to kind of protect as as protection against this Outlaws taking over and it should be noted that the the person we're talking about reymond The bear schaffin bear schaffin Um had been an outlaw But taco knew him as one of his lieutenants He left the outlaws passed over the warlocks and then wanted to Well, you know was a boss of the of the warlocks and then uh, or affiliated with the warlocks and then Wanted to jump to the hell's angels and and it's pretty it's pretty Violent because at one point the outlaw is firebomb the warlocks headquarters You know, so this was this was generating a lot of news Not only locally in florida, but also nationally as like a biker conflict So they killed reymond the bear schaffin is killed in february of 91 um In the spring of 92 at a Daytona biker week One of the uh outlaw prospects or probates who they called hitler um soccer punches the outlaw boss from atlanta moose mclean at a Wet t-shirt contest and Hitler is unceremoniously Uh stripped of his prospect status Taken to a hotel suite in Daytona beach beaten uh His all of his outlaw gear is taken from him and he is thrown off of a balcony Uh about a five-store balcony. Yeah, I think it was like the third floor or something. Yeah Yeah, that that's how the taco bowman grew rolled Yeah, well that was I mean i'm not justifying violence, but that that was pretty Bad mistake to put your hands on uh You know, I just I just trying to just trying to give a glimpse into how uh taco it hit administered um Discipline within the club. Uh, and then you know in 93 there was a situation with a florida Outlaw called turbo turbo tally and he had gotten some trouble up in canada and had I think to a extent where he admitted that the outlaws did business in canada in a signed statement in his court file and uh He was called to detroit and picked up at the airport by two of taco's lieutenants and and held captive for like five days in the outlaws uh eastside clubhouse and mercilessly beaten and um Allegedly sodomized uh And then put on a plane and and stripped of his colors. So, you know, that that was kind of the lead up to New year's eve 93 which became this This date in outlaws history that is Infamous and filled with mythology and mystique Where there was a new year's eve party Down in florida for all of the the big shot outlaw lieutenants from around the country As well as I think a rank and file. They had a banquet hall and Several suites that were all connected together And he gave a speech That became known as the rot the rottener speech and we all know the english language There's no such word as rottener But we all know what you know the gist of what he was trying to to tell them and it was a uh, it was a pep talk um a inspirational motivational speech to encourage More an escalation of the war Against the hell's angels and he said we're going to be rottener than we've ever been Uh in the history of our club and we're going to take the fight To the hell's angels and I think he was in front of Hundreds if not the thousand outlaws That were in front of them um And it was just something that became part of his legend um and then subsequently There was an uptick in in violence and in in the warfare between the hell's angels Yeah, I think that firebombing of the warlocks club was that it was is in 94 So that that makes sense that that chronology and one of the problems for taco though is They have a a prospect in the Daytona club Mike lin who who becomes a full patched. I believe he was he was fully patched over at one point Um, and he gets really close to joe black, right? Yeah, and he and he I think he was also acting as like um Maybe a bodyguard for taco at some point too as part of his prospecting But he makes a decision to cooperate with the federal government, which is Really interesting because he's not a guy who was jammed up as far as I know He was not someone who was jammed up on some on on anything and he charges I think he has uh, I don't know. What would you say a change of faith or something? I don't know what what you would What his motivations were but he he on his own and and I believe like at first the fbi was suspicious and didn't like Like this is where it's like thought he could have been a double agent Yeah, they because you know, he just he literally just walked into the fed office and said, um, I'll wire up and um, so that this is sort of like the the beginning of the end for for taco bowman and then in 94 um he starts really concentrating on what's going on in Chicago and milwaukee and I know there were some trips that the atf And fbi followed taco To chicago a drive from detroit to chicago, which is about four hours And then subsequently a couple days later. They saw some of the chicago and northwest indiana bosses coming to detroit And they had some informants in uh, some of these meetings and it was for taco to implore uh, these lieutenants to keep firebombing Hell's angels affiliate clubhouses and in in, um I believe it's february or march Of 94, uh, they attacked two clubhouses and burned them to the ground around the chicago area And and that's where those those couple meetings, uh in in the first couple weeks of 94 First with taco going to chicago and then with the chicago and indiana guys come into detroit That's where the a lot of that or most of that was planned um And we know that from from mike glenn from hit because other guys flip too Yeah, eventually it made it into the into the indictment into the core into, uh, taco's uh Case that they eventually brought a couple years after that yeah There was another incident where he was taco got upset one of his close friends buffalo walley Who ran the buffalo new york chaper was was killed in a in a big uh fight Between the the hell's angels and the outlaws out in new york. Is that the Lancaster? Yeah, Lancaster speed Lancaster speedway. Yeah and there was a Tell uh television. Well, there was television coverage of the funeral of the hell's angel um Who died there was a one outlaw who died and one hell's angel who died and that the outlaw was Buff a buffalo walley and the hell's angel was a guy that called mad mike and there was a video footage and I think a photo and a newspaper of an outlaw affiliate club at The funeral and giving condolences. Oh, yeah. Yeah to the hell's angels that did not play well with uh taco and he um But I think and I think those guys they knew I think that The one of those outlaws knew that guy from like, uh, maybe uh Like an alcoholics anonymous support thing or something like there was He knew that he he knew somebody in that hell's angels club on a personal level and so Didn't didn't have like a problem with him, but that didn't go over well with Yeah, well then well what he did what he didn't just take it out on No, the guy he right. He stripped the entire affiliate club of any uh affiliation with the outlaws and ordered them to tampa to the uh, the killsboro chapter hillsboro county the people the outlaws that that that operate out of the Tampa state peen area in hillsboro county. They call killsboro and um They ordered the whole fifth they were called the I think they were called the um The fifth something with the fifth uh, the fifth fifth chapter or something. They had a weird name And he ordered the whole club to report to the Tampa outlaws Headquarters and they were assaulted with bats and chains stripped of their Outlaw colors and or their patches their patches and Never come back again and then in 94 you had the murder of a Northwest indiana Outlaw chicago For people that don't understand the midwest geography Northwest indiana is like a suburb of chicago Like you can be in downtown chicago from northwest indiana in like 10 minutes five minutes. So, um I think this guy's name was big don fog. I think oh, yeah Don fog was a guy from northwest indiana. That was I think a part of the chicago Outlaw chapter Yeah, was that has that ever been confirmed by the way? Was I don't know, but it was charged In in that case and uh taco gave the contract to joe black and those of those florida guys and then in 94 Another new year's eve speech this one not as um impassioned or as as uh infamous but 94 uh new year's eve I think there was less people there More of like the inner circle and he uh he tells his his brain trust That we're we're not just going to stick to our guns In the area that we feel comfortable in the midwest florida We're going to take the fight to the house angels out west We're going to go to california and start killing house angels and we're going to start with george christy Who yeah, I know conference with yeah, that was in the that was in the in the court documents. Yeah that um Yeah, that's something we can ask george about um Allegedly, you know, at least that's what that's what was in the the Court case and in and who knows what happens if the if the indictment never comes down I mean, I think yeah, they once they had gone out there a couple times They were not successful I think they would have continued to go out there and hunt christy if uh the major indictment doesn't land in 97 And uh taco has to go on the run for two years Yeah, what what was the chronology? So we know we mentioned already mike glenn was sort of the catalyst to He was the first guy to wire up in the Daytona chapter. He was um and then But then other guys flip too Joe who got indicted you know what I'm saying? Did they flip after the indictment or no? I think joe joe I'm pretty sure joe black I don't I I'm sorry. I don't know the chronology, but joe black ended up being the biggest fish that they flipped And he was so close to taco. He was doing all of taco's dirty work down in florida um, and he ended up being um, I'm not sure if they Flipped them before the indictment or after the indictment but at trial In 2001, I think Uh, joe black was the star witness wane hicks joe black aka joe black and then uh, lemonyan who was steve lemonyan who was joe blacks Yeah, joe blacks right hand. Yeah who was who ran the Daytona chapter. Yeah. He was the Daytona president. Um, but before The trial it's interesting to point out that when the indictment comes down taco Uh, it's nowhere to be found And he's actually placed on the fbi's most wanted list I'm not sure if there's ever been another outlaw biker on that list not that you know that I that i'm aware of And he was on the run for Almost two years. I think the indictment came in august 97 and he was rounded up in May or june of of 99 um, and he was being Hid in you know outlaw, uh, safe houses Both here and abroad Um, I know he was in canada um eventually they, uh They got him on a He was caught speeding Um, they didn't realize who he was. I think he had a fake Identification, but they had even back then they had A camp a camera on the police vehicle And they had him with his girlfriend Um, who he had taken on the run. I don't know if he took her on the run Right off the bat or if he did like a whitey bulger who like took one woman on the run for a year Brought her back to boston picked up another woman who then went with him to california for the next 15 years but uh he in uh summer of spring of 99 He's pulled over. I believe somewhere out west Um And eventually he makes his way back to to detroit. He's being hid by the italians. The frank the bomb is hiding them um And they found they they theorized that the the best way to get taco was to go through his wife um who was irish and quite a tough tough lady in her own right And uh, they knew that she would be upset if they showed her the police uh vehicle cam footage of taco and his girlfriend in the car She's living in the detroit suburbs. I believe that she's still alive. I think um, but uh She eventually gives him up and they find him at a house in sterling heights michigan which is You know probably 15 minutes out of detroit. Um it's You know 10 minutes from gross point. Would you say that jimmy? Yeah, yeah, yeah, it's not far from 10 15 minutes. Yeah, because detroit detroit to gross point. They border each other You can it's all east. It's all east side gross points sterling heights is all east side gross points more far east side And the and the bomb uh, you know his territory was uh southeast the south warren south sterling heights south um He was somebody that uh Existed in this area that was that's that's a hodgepodge of lower income White black Biker it's it's an interesting area right around like eight and grass it eight and hoover Well, especially by the night by the 90s it it was it was what you're talking about. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, and that that was that was frank's You know frank loved it, you know and you know frank thrived in that environment But he was by the way taco was pulled over in nevada in nevada. Okay, that's where they that you were right out west Um, and they did you have do you have a date on when they apprehended him? Um I did have it up here, but um, I lost I know it was late may or june of 99 and uh, it took him two years to um Bring him to trial He's at june 7th. I just found it june 7th 99 Uh in the afternoon they find him on a house on a Suburban street looked like it, you know probably looks like any small It was non-descript non-descript for that neighborhood. I mean that's a solid middle class Neighborhood, but I thought that was one of his houses though. Wasn't that that wasn't a safe house Wasn't that one? I mean, maybe it wasn't in his name, but wasn't that a house that he lived in? I'm not certain Okay But I know that when he was back in detroit the bomb was moving him from house to house and then the the feds had Brought the bomb in a number of times thinking they could Squeeze the bomb for information. Oh, yeah, right. We're taco Trying to get taco to talk. Yeah the bomb so so uh It Hits the siren benny, uh, I I got to know frank the bomb pretty well in the last couple years of his life Um, you know full disclosure. I'm sure That you know his falling out with jackie jackaloni Played a role in his desire to feed me information um when when billy jackaloni died, uh jackie kind of demoted frank the bomb And uh, he was very unhappy with that and then put him on a shelf right after put him on the shelf like In terms of detroit lcn But believe me frank was was as active as after it could be until the day he died um He was just doing his own stuff and at that point wasn't wasn't sharing and I know they had some issues with the bikers That they tried to reach back out to frank and say hey, can you help us and frank was like But uh and then frank also thought that Jackie and those guys might have tried to kill him. Um, there was a situation where jackie called for frank And uh, frank showed up at a mcdonald's at nine in woodward. I know, you know I like lived by that uh intersection for quite a while and um When he got there jackie wasn't there a couple other guys were there and said hey, we're gonna take you to jackie And frank said the fuck you are. I ain't going with you He had never Whenever jackie had called to meet him jackie was always there Because for so many years they were billy jackaloni's top guys. So they had to communicate a lot Um, so he was not used to showing up and then and then someone being uh, you know, hey, we're gonna Take you in another car that you don't feel comfortable with with guys. You don't know And he he bolted and he told me at the the worst case they were going to kill him Best case they were going to give him a you know a severe beating um, so Frank so I got I got pretty close to frank um, he let me he left well he Asked taco, uh, if taco would talk to me on the phone And I got about I don't know two three three four minutes Uh one after taco was convicted. So this taco is convicted. He's doing life in prison Frank the bomb uh, who was free throughout He did a lot of jail time back in the day, but his last prison sentence was from like 87 to 90 or something And from like 90 forward he was free until he died in the late 2010s um But he talked to taco quite a bit Uh on the phone on a regular basis because they were such close friends And I was with frank a couple times when taco called Um And I said to him one time I was like, hey the next time taco calls you would you mind Uh allowing me to to grab the phone and just introduce myself So he asked taco if would be okay You know, there was nothing nothing earth shattering. I just jumped on the phone Was he aware of your reporting to talk? Yeah, well he knew He didn't really know my name. He knew the book motors of the mafia where I see he's a picture of him. Yeah, yeah um He had been aware of the article that we wrote me and jimmy wrote an article. Oh, yeah for cbs. Yeah cbs For their website about the bikers in detroit But I don't he didn't know scott burnstein as a um as a name as a reporter name, but he knew some of the stuff I had written about him when I when I reminded him of it and um I mean what what can you really take away from three or four minutes? But you know, I'd say as a you know for for my uh reporting it was uh It was it was pretty uh important uh you know To to be able to get it's not FaceTime I guess but just to be able to Talk to somebody Um like that someone that you've reported on someone that you've learned about and even if it's for three or four minutes um It has value and I and I really appreciated it even though if it was it was a lot of small talk and um It was it's something that I always remember And uh, I was proud that I could say that a couple years after that I broke the story of his death um, I think it was in 19 18 it wasn't that long ago. Um, let me just double check it but uh I um I was the one who broke that story. I got tipped off 2019 2019 spring. I believe it was a winner of february or march march 2019 and You saw a picture of him at the end. He didn't really didn't look anything like He had looked in the past. I mean, I guess people you know people get older and and change and Especially in the joint. Yeah, but you look at the picture of him at the very end, which was like a prison mug It doesn't look anything like the photos that you see of him from the 70s 80s and 90s Um, but he looked good. He didn't look unhealthy or old Um, he just was more clean-shaven. I think he had a mustache but um Yeah, his his legacy is so um It's so layered and it's something that Uh, Who knows if it will ever be Equaled. I mean what what conan rickter and the pagans are doing right now. I definitely think I've said this a couple times already in this episode they're taking a page out of what taco did with the The outlaws in the 80s and 90s But he he is revered Um coast to coast outside of sunny barger I don't think there's a more iconic or notorious well known well respected Beloved biker boss in american history than than taco bowman. Yeah, I don't think so either. Um, The like I said the few people I've talked to Um, all all thought very highly of him even even the rivals even like george christy commented on one of our social media posts So this is public that he said um taco was a worthy adversary Those were those were his words and the italian guy That we talked to He thought highly of taco um mentioned that uh Um another person I know who used to run with frank and taco thought very highly of him and and even the law enforcement guys um Well, he was someone that always respected The law enforcement that was Tracking him. He didn't the cat didn't get into screaming matches or throwing things at them um, he he He took a page out of the jackalones and the toko zarelli's here who saw law enforcement. You're doing a job Right. We're doing a job, right? Yeah Yeah, yeah, even even the law enforcement people that it doesn't seem like it was personal of anything They I think they sort of liked them Not as they they were going to do their job, which was was they thought I mean they thought he was a uh You know, they thought he was a duplicity. Yeah. Yeah, uh, you know ego maniacal crime lord, but at the same time they recognize that he He had some you know charisma about him and Like I said, they had a level of respect for those guys where he didn't let his people disrespect The the atfs and deas and fbis that were were going after them. Um, it was always cordial Tacos, you know, another part of his legacy tying it back to the start of the show you know, he he was the definition of a leader And somebody that could easily adapt To whatever situation he was in and interact with whoever was on the other side of that table whether it be law enforcement George Christie his top lieutenant or you know, just Anybody that that he would be doing business with or socializing with he was somebody that wore a lot of hats and could easily shift from One mode to another and and I don't again. I don't want to belabor it But it's it's just interesting to see one, you know, I've seen a lot of fbi surveillance photos of him And to see him in all of his Outlaw garb and when he's amongst all the outlaws and you almost he almost looks like a warlord You know, like, uh, he's got the one in the long native american warlord. He was very dark complex. That's why they called him taco um, and he'd have the long hair and He'd have all the tattoos and he looked like out of central casting for Biker movie and then you see a surveillance photo that was taken literally 48 hours later Or a week later And his hair is all tied up. He's in a three-piece suit um It just uh, you never saw that before sonny barger wasn't dressing up in three-piece suits to meet with with other criminals Or other businessmen He was in a category of taco. It was in a category all by himself In terms of how he understood The way the game was played. He was playing chess when everybody else was playing checkers Yeah, it's um, there's no there's no book about taco as far as I know And you know, that seems like some some journalist out there Um, or some writer should probably should probably take take that up because it was a really fascinating fascinating story And uh, just you know to to put a bow on this His all you needed to know about his legacy Played out it at his funeral They had to literally Rent the ohio state fairgrounds They had 5 000 people at this thing Um including other biker clubs around the country descended on uh, it was around date in ohio In the date in ohio area Biker clubs that they don't necessarily get along with. Yeah, we're we're even there. So it was like a uh of viking funeral Where uh people from around the land came to pay the respects To You know the the the midwest sonny barger. I mean that's There's no other comparison. I mean it's sonny barger and taco and then Everybody that came after yeah, and that's not counting the can of that, you know, mom boucher. I'm not trying to disrespect The the the very famous biker bosses in the united states. Those are the two big names. I I think historically you know, well, it's it's interesting. I hope people find this interesting and and um You know, thanks for listening. Thanks for watching and uh, if you have other ideas for for for, you know, important significant Underworld figures you'd like us to talk about in this life and crimes edition hit us up on the socials and and let us know Uh, please subscribe follow us. Thanks for watching. Thanks for listening. I'm jimmy buchelato. I'm scott burnstein. We're out