 Okay, are you ready to rock? You can share that microphone. Have you put it on? perfect Parisa we met you earlier and Some of us a lot of people met you don't know Jones. You were talking about handling uncertainty in a decision-making process Everything is clear after that Used a microphone just that could be the confusion at the higher order. It's yeah exactly exactly And then we have Jonathan reams you You have 20 years of pig farming seven years of dump truck driving and The PhD in leadership studies a perfect background when it comes to a child leadership. Okay? It's a good and then we have Mary Williams a geek That was sense about you in the program a geek and a manager of geeks And a Twitter you're also the geek manager. Yeah, that's your nickname Yes, yes to ask you you're also CTO and you're you also Runs the micro consultancy Chrome Rose I Would like to start to ask you guys and now you can ask your questions to the panel via our interactive tool So I would like to start to ask you. What would you say is the biggest challenge for? Like to say modern organizations today in this fast changing and complex world We start with an easy question And I'll start with a try answer So I think adjusting to that to a world or we have to optimize for change rather than optimize for delivery so we've got lots of Organizations that have been building railways and they now need to be able to build boats and cars and motorcycles And they're not really set up for that at all or probably they need to build something There's not a transport mechanism as well. My metaphor is falling apart run with me But yeah, I think optimizing for not knowing is the thing that we're really really Terrible out and we have very little evidence of Organizations that have scaled and done that really well We were talking about that Donna Sure, I Think the biggest challenge right now is shifting trust from systems and processes to people To just trusting that people when given the conditions for perform You know for for trust for belonging and a goal. It's worth going for they'll get it done That's the biggest challenge something that had that shift in head in headset Parisa what do you say so I can just add to what you say I believe in that and I believe that so the main challenge is to be made more and more aware about ourself as a person and about Human being how we act how we behave and how we think and how we feel What's going on behind that? What's the stream that's going under all these so More you know about it is more manageable Everything around you. So it's what I believe So building on the notion of unknowing or remember Generating a table topic for a world cafe session. It was about how to have integrity with unknowing this And I think that's the biggest challenge that we have how do we find a place of stillness and Integrity in ourselves that can be present with that unknowing We have a good question right now in our tool How can we stimulate traditional managers to embrace personal growth and new leadership qualities needed for the future? I had a discussion with one of the Person was here that we have a fixed mindset and growing growth mindset Everybody may hear that I think learning organization is the organization can survive all these changes So it's just to be open to learn new things from different people from the people who are Under you or above you. So just be open to that and learning and learning and just don't be fixed with one type of management style or one type of thinking because in this Globalization world in this changing world you you if the train is going on if you stand the train goes so you have to Go to the train or you have to run after the train you decide But if you have to deal with people that are using their reptile brain most of the time more the limbic maybe How do you deal with those people? Maybe it sounds very easy, but it's not easy. It's very difficult Again, because you have to work with your own reptile brain You have to understand what make you Feel fear because when you know yours and you have respect for that and deal with that You see it easier in other people because you know what we do as soon as we see fear in other We try to ignore it. We try to see that we don't see it because we don't know how we have to tackle with it Deal with it. So but if we see in ourself and try to see what can I do about it? It's easier for us to see in other One thing I say to leaders when stay in uncomfortable zone Because as soon as it become uncomfortable we try to fly it we try to do something Don't do anything sometimes. Just stay there and listen and Be alert and ever and very present to the moment. What happened in the meeting? What happened in that people around you? It gives you a lot of information that you lose when you just go to the flight zone when it's Uncomfortable so stay in uncomfortable zone. You get a lot more of reflections exactly start with yourself. Yes I Mean I I suppose I've also over the last few years been Doubling down and going you're scared already. Let's scare you more than let's show you something that might feel safer And so helping people see a thing that is So I'm from the tech side of things so just Finding space for someone to go off in the corner and build things in a better way And then you show them the better way rather than letting everybody spend all the time arguing up front about The specter of the future that is so very very frightening and so sometimes you accept that fear and then provide emotional safety by showing a better world rather than Dreaming of a better world or telling them that a better world might happen being able to show concrete reality calms people down a lot when they can actually see it in front of them but what is the best way of for teams that want to to change in order to to Influence their management I think it depends on the situation like a bunch of places a bunch of the biggest success stories are actually just places where they got air cover So I was part of the team that built the government digital service in the UK that built gov.uk in a very modern and agile and product and user focused way and most of how we did that was we had Martha Lane Fox who was the Digital champion for the UK government. She wrote a white paper that said we needed revolution not evolution And we got enough air cover to go just do some stuff for a while And and then we could come back showing the thing rather than telling people about what might be possible and I think sometimes if in The UK government which is driven by fear as we've all seen recently At least somebody else brought Trump up before me but But you know if if you if you if you are in a situation where that is a Given you can't you can't unfear an entire government but you can provide emotional safety by showing a better way and in a Different organization I take a very different approach. So success stories. Yeah show them another tip Did when you asked the question I had this image come to mind, you know Because I hear this a lot people are making changes and somebody said this one Then you bump up to the next level in the organization and they don't quite get what you're doing But but what they're doing impacts what you need to do And I saw this sign in the US There's often a lot of people standing on the side of the road with a cardboard sign Something you know to get work or money or whatever And there's this picture of this guy in an immaculate suit and tie said 15 years of MBA experience, you know needs work and I show this in training sometimes and say to people so did he does he have 15 years of experience or did he have one year of experience 15 times and So the motivation for people is it's like grow or die You're gonna your organization your job whatever is going to become irrelevant and get left behind If you don't engage in this kind of growth because the competitive advantage now is in Developing the human resource capacity that the people the personal growth. That's the competitive advantage It's in my and hopefully I'm answering the right question here, but it's very personal. I I Mean I'm myself in the in the world of unknowing that that part of it I live on the edge all the time and There's places and times where I'll it'll be something minor that will trigger the back end of the brain I'll just be going. Okay, wait a minute and and it's pulling that back So similarly for the managers that are in this tricky spot of shifting direction It's a question. Are they ready because if they if someone is ready then they know It's just these things are going to show up like the the moments of anxiety and the moments of holy moly now What they will show up, but it's a guarantee There's nothing perfect about this journey and there's nothing perfect about any anybody or any person and that's what makes us beautifully You know beautiful in that in our own way, so I think it's about being patient and about being If I can use the word loving it's about being accepting in the in the in the moment and and just allowing That person to see Themselves in a different way in the world and that's really it because I know some of the big changes that have happened and big companies Have happened because they've put all the management team together. They've taken them off into a place as they've never been before right out of their comfort zone completely and and that allows for new eyes fresh perspectives and Different conversations to take place and I think that's really what we're always doing is stimulating different conversations But along with that a different experience because it's about how you see yourself and your place in the world and what perspective you hold That makes a difference So I think there's a lot of compassion required in making this shift from one way of being a manager to another way of being a manager but I think it's also about Accepting that for some people you're attacking their identity by saying that this change has to happen and I'm Just young enough to be a millennial and every like think piece I read about what shitty assholes we are as a generation just amuses me because I'm like If you believe that loyalty to a company is an essential part of your identity, of course you think that we're shitty assholes because our worldview is trusting the company look after you is irrational because we grew up in a well and I grew up in South Africa doing a massive amount of economic turmoil like trusting the government or The company to look after you like we have not not only zero evidence that'll happen We have plenty of evidence that it won't and so we're acting very rationally by not placing company or organizational loyalty above above ourselves and but if you're a key part of your identity is that being a good person and it is about being a good employee and being a Good employee is about loyalty just to pick a really specific example You're attacking someone's identity in their sense of self when you say that's not important anymore Or that's not sensible anymore And I think that's that's where the really deep-rooted fear and the massive amygdala Hijack happens is when you're telling somebody like not only is the world changing But who you have to be has to change is a really scary thing to do to somebody and when you're you think you're having an argument about like in my world like continuous delivery or Scrum or like you're not you're having an argument about whether somebody's mirror like whole existence is valid anymore Until you take the step back and realize that that's what you're doing. You can't you can't have a healthy conversation or Talk about healthy change because you're you're attacking who somebody is and even if you don't intend it that way I I Thought just one experiment with you guys To see what happened in us when we think about change. Can everybody close your eyes and breathe Regentally close your eyes and breathe I Want you to imagine that you come to a new city in the right side of the city is light light everywhere Candles light lamps everywhere In the left side is just dark dark dark Which part of city do you want to go to? Come back. Don't sleep. It's even after lunch. Come back How many of you wanted to go to the light side of the city? usually happen The light of city is the part that is over Habits our behavior that I call it. We are addicted to it our habits It take us there and those lamp those Candles is our knowledge and our experience make it light. We have been there. We know what's happened to us The dark side is the change We don't have any experience and knowledge. What's going to happen is dark Isn't dark not because it's bad is dark because it's fun. We don't know is We don't know what's going to happen Uncertainty and unknowledge about that So to be a good leader or a person who want to dare to go to the dark side You have to be able to take one a step after one a step every step you take to the change You learn something new you experience something new you put a new light there by that and after a while sometimes after change you see that the Other part that is light is much more nicer than the other but it was just cover and knowingness and that you don't have experience about and as you say we are very afraid of to do that Because if we take it very personal because then become when we become addicted to our behavior and what we know our Judgment part or decision part of the brain and the part of the brain that Able us to choose the prefrontal cortex doesn't work anymore The limbic system the emotional part takeover I can give example they made an experiment in the hospital in US and they check women that was domestic Violence with domestic violence they go there for one two weeks to recover After they finish their Medical treatment they ask them. Where are you going now? What do you think was the answer? Home exactly why because I know when he'll hit me why he hits me and when he hits me Certainity is clear for my brain. I know what's happened so complex are we human being we stay in the worst situation Because we know what's happened to us why you don't go to a new man Change I don't know when he hit me why he hit me and so Just let me just complete it. That's how we human being works So to be able to get from the habits that we have to have encouraged to do something new We have to question our core values because new Research show that that a part of the brain preferable prefrontal cortex call the ventral Medial prefrontal cortex now name it is not important But it's a small part of the prefrontal cortex that is very Sensitive to our core values When we think about our core value and practice it this part become active and when it become active the Emotional part of brain that make us addicted to our Behavior become calm down and become inactive So is new research show that how we value a strong value you can manage our behavior that is Cons that distract you for us. Sorry, but but can you can you describe an organization that is is organized to actually accept humans how we work change and and also How to speak the the importance of a growing? So there's a couple of articles that came out in the Harvard Business Review in a book now called an everyone culture How to become a deliberately? Developmental organization Comes out of the work of Robert Keegan and Lisa Leahy at Harvard and it talks about how you can Take the kind of second job that everybody has which is basically protecting your amygdala Trying to not look like an idiot trying to you know position yourself make yourself safe and secure and Make that personal world part of the work world and what they do is help organizations use practices where they integrate What the job is? externally with how they're relating to the job what does it evoke in them as people and they see that by using Practices that help them work with that they perform much better in terms of traditional measures By growing as people and devoting specific institutionalized methods to do that I have another question here from the audience if we optimize for change We're talking a lot about change today if we optimize for change isn't there risks that we constantly change and never deliver What's the purpose? It doesn't sense here. Well, that's the question. Oh, what's the purpose? Is it just a change or is it the per change for a reason your purpose is guides all of that Otherwise there are no results. So so it's a possible to both change and deliver It's what what's changing though. I mean In any kind of adaptive behavior if you think of environmental biology and all these kind of things What changes in the DNA of a species that allows it to adapt to a new environment is about 2% 98% stays the same so often the job for leaders is to help discern What is it that needs to change and what are all the things that stay the same because that will help the amygdala calm down And if you know what is it that needs to change Then it's much easier to go forward So I tend to try and make the conversation about optimizing because I think change Has a big capital letter at the front and people think of a change program and that it takes years and like but I mean more the day by day you've got a There's a there's a great quote which was about Skating to where the puck is going which is nice hockey analogy, which is a South Africa makes little sense to me We don't have ice But like trying to figure out where things are going and heading there. There's a great quote about how Blackberry was Skating to where the puck was going unfortunately Google and Apple were brought in like Heat heat blowers and melted the ice rink and started water skiing around around it and I think that's the kind of thing that tends to Smash organization from side take them like we can be incrementally optimizing, but we also need to be looking at what's Changing around us and get ready for what's going to happen and Blackberry stopped making phones this year. There's a very Famous, you know the famous story. Everybody knows of Kodak knowing what was happening to their industry They knew digital was gonna was gonna take them over they were unable as an organization Even with that knowledge to change fast enough and well enough to not die and what are not, you know, just a great extent die and Figuring out how you see what's going on and make make change every day not make change a big thing that distracts from delivery So I'm Canadian and it was Wayne gratsky Hockey fanatics I Have a question to you guys because we're talking about change and the importance of doing fast enough And it's mostly on the management level That that we see okay code like they didn't do it if the CEO or other people in the management would have Seen it. Maybe they would be here today If Kodak thought their mission was to help people share memories rather than their mission was to sell film cameras and film Then they probably would have Been able to adapt We have talked about to add to the to add to the mission Yeah, that's very good my question to you guys if you open your phones is how big impact Let's see. Maybe we have here My question is how important is it that all management functions are capable of managing in a rapidly changing and complex world? How important is it that all management functions are capable of managing in a rapidly changing and complex world? Is it not important somewhat important important or very important? This is called biasing a test by showing the results to sorry So we see here that it's very important that all management functions are capable of managing in rapidly changing What do you think so the panel do you agree one of the interesting things that happened in a conversation? I had with Michael Pacanowski who heads up the Center for Innovation with and he was with WL gore for 28 years Is that he was telling me and it's on the it's on the podcast the evolutionary provocative podcast the program But he he talks about a company. He's there were seven tiers of management in this company and no one above the fourth tier Could see the impact that any of the decisions we're having on the customer So that gives you an idea of what this hierarchical structure does and it means that if this is going to happen If the management functions are truly going to be capable of managing in a changing world They're gonna have to get out of the office and go down and visit the rest of the world. There has to be Some movement in that and an intentional desire to close the gap But there is there any of them in the management level that are more a key player than another one to really get that competitive advantage Well, I think you're finding their competitive advantages is in their partnerships and in their attitude There's a number of companies that in fact the whole podcast this year is Focused on examples of companies that are designing themselves differently and they have the competitive advantage Depending on what they want it to be with is it in the sector? Is it with themselves? Is it with their client? You know, they choose that and and they're they're no two are made alike But yet they're made of similar principles. So transparency autonomy the freedom of people to go and do what they want to do And they want to do it those kinds of things the principles are very ubiquitous. No question Does that answer you? Yeah another question to you guys How urgent is it that companies update the traditional performance management way of thinking? How urgent is it that companies update the traditional performance management way of thinking? It's not urgent somewhat urgent urgent or very Thank you Yeah Yeah, no, Rena I had the same thought at the same time what performance management just ditch it if that tells you you're managing People and not the work That's that that's a clear signal that you've got a company that's doomed because they are not paying attention to the right things They are not focused on the people they are heading for the management metrics So they're measuring and we talk about this in the companies that mimic life conversation These are companies that they're that's the thinking these are companies that manage by their stats Instead of by their accomplishments completely different My my favorite quote from I'm gonna sit pronounce you know after so they pronounce that right And from from the session just before lunch was why are we spending so much energy trying to get better at something? We shouldn't be doing in the first place Which is pretty much my exact thought on performance management system performance management systems like giving people a great feedback loop so that they can Develop and learn is hugely important I don't know that I don't know anybody who's ever described a big company's performance management system is an effective way of giving people a great Feedback loop so that they can learn and develop Maybe one of you has one if so come and tell us about it because we'll all be like odd and shocked and amazed No pressure So what what would you say what what does it take to really be in the front line of organizational change? You put away your microphones all of you They roll off You know what what does it take to be in the front line of organization? I'm not even sure that's a laudable goal I think that the laudable goal is what does it take to be the best we can be and perhaps Maybe but it boils down to just jumping in and learning and being willing to try something different Being willing to step out. It doesn't have to be far You don't have to but it has to be far enough that you get enough confidence and trust that you can take a bigger step The next time goes back to you said that earlier It's just keeping keeping things at a level where you know We are not in a small incremental change environment. This is not the time to make these little tweaks So it's easy to tell companies that are still managing by mechanical thinking Metric, you know that because they are making income. They're not using the complex adaptive system to adapt So the only way they're gonna make those kinds of jumps is if they switch it to thinking they recognizing It's a complex adaptive system. Let's use the system and Then you'll get radical change and you won't break any brain cells. You won't hurt people. You'll have they'll have fun It'll be entertaining and it'll be powerful And I think that's the front line the front line is focusing on people and what people can do that They don't know about yet fact nobody knows about it yet, and that's the exciting part My favorite thing I so a thing I say a lot is we should stop pretending that decisions are permanent No decision is permanent like the world doesn't allow any decision to be permanent And I say that coming from a country that just voted to leave the EU Anyway, I will stop harping on Brexit in two years time when they fucked it up completely but my my my favorite thing I learned at this conference last year was a thing that and that James said when he was talking about sociocracy Which is and you can make good decisions by saying is it good enough for now and safe enough to try? And I have taught every leadership team management team every company I've worked with in the last year that exact phrase because I think it's a wonderful way to go Can we move forward is this is this good enough for now and safe enough to try is a wonderful way to make? Good decisions that are fast enough that keep you moving without everybody having to be like this is the one true decision that will never be changed again because that's just scary and Activates everybody's fear response So I get a question here. How do you secure then that feedback and development takes place? How do you secure that feedback and development takes place? I Can say something about feedback Have you ever hear that somebody say I have constructive feedback for you and And the what do you feel? Okay, what I've done am I right? That they want to make it in the nice way and tell me Don't play with people because our brain gets it directly The feedback is very important But never give feedback to the person to the person as a person Never point to a person always give feedback to the process to the problem I would used to say put the fish on the table Even it smells so talk. This is the problem. What should we do about it? And we it's mean you so who I who done something right and you who is manager Tell me what should we do about it? Then my amygdala doesn't it? Oh my god. What should I do about it? What should we do so we become a team and look at the problem? So my amygdala comes down some people says that okay How about that the problem is some behavior in the person then the person is problem And I say again No, the behavior is a part of the person not the whole of the person never Questioning a person that you did drawing you are not capable you did this problem say this behavior We have problem with let's see. What should we do about it? How can we get rid of it? So talk about the problem helps that the process go quicker because the person start to think that How I solve the problem does this work at home with my husband and kids as well? Yes, and I have one one Advice for people at work how to Try to get people's brain to start to think more solution than problem I always say when the team group people come to you and ask a question That's the problem. What should I do? Always ask them. What's your suggestion? Usually, maybe they say oh, you are the leader, you know better is the problem What should we do say go and think and come with three solution with all Pours at cones for that advantage and disadvantage for that for all three With this Method after while you train your people's brain to focus on the Solution not the problem then when they come to you They know that they have to come with the solution of the problem but not fit the problem So is one method to help to train people's brain at work to think about solution not the problem So I was thinking about what you said earlier about you know change or and decisions being forever a Good friend of mine Bonnie Roy who will be here in Stockholm in about two weeks. I think or a week two weeks She has been talking about open participatory organizations and One of the key principles is that you're always just working from new starting positions So this notion that wherever you're at you can stop it. Where are we and how do we start from here? What is really going on and in relation to the question about what is the front line and how do you know a Friend of mine has a lovely Skype quote from William Gibson. It's that the future is already here It's just not equally distributed And I think about that because I hear about all this IT agile stuff And I remember 20 years ago reading about a Swedish company in the cable and wire handling business There was totally flat. It was totally self-organized So the future is already here There the front line is where is it for each of us individually and as we work together And that's our starting position So what would you say? Well, what is the most important leadership skill to actually lead in this? new rapid fast agile environment I'll wait till I give my talk after the panel for that one Well mine comes from the talk and it comes from it also it's both sensing it's shifting from analyzing everything to just sensing it and working with what emerges so it's a lot of it's merging the spirit of the workplace with the All the rest the other domains the entire all four quadrants Together and and the whole thing came about many many years ago when I was working part of the knowledge and innovation network And I heard a story from a colleague of mine about Dave Packard who did the 12 the principles of the HP way And somebody asked him one day, you know, how do you know when these principles are working? because it back in those days HP was a completely different kind of company and He said well, I don't know he said but I can sense when it's not and I thought that nailed it Just and that was way back then so yes The the future is to have been here for a while Semco in Sao Paulo, Brazil good example There's there's been companies doing this outside stuff That's why when you mention names of companies that are doing the kinds of workplaces. We're talking about here People a lot of people don't know them because they've just gone and done it And they haven't been in the news around killing their customers or other, you know Unethical things in the pharmaceutical industry naming no names. So What would you say Paris and Mary what's the most important leadership skills to to really succeed in this complex world for me to encourage yourself and people to Bring not the best the unique idea from themselves because we can't be best always from if you are top There come one another person come be better than you So don't try to be best company try to be unique company And we can't do it because every single person who sits here even if you were Identical twins you are different people because the neuron connection in your brain is Exactly based on your experience of life Nobody else has it so you have unique idea in your brain that nobody else has it So if you are a good leader trust that bring out from yourself and people around you I'm gonna answer the This question slightly different way. I think People moving from believing their job as a leader is to direct to their job as a leader being to enable Going my job is to make sure the right stuff is possible here and to help the people who are closest to the problem solve it in the best way and Make everybody know where we're trying to go what our mission is and then trust people to trust and verify is a phrase I use a lot and because I think you can You can just take away these old structures that we know aren't working like you can take performance management away You have to you have to replace it with Something that helps you both trust and verify because blind trust goes wrong the first time something bad happens people They overreact and they want to move away from that So helping helping leaders move from thinking that their job is to have the answer or their job is to have the Direction to their job is to make the space in which great things happen And I think it's very difficult, but I think it's also probably the only way we survive So I will give some short answer Yes, it's more commercial, but it's really that it's not about a skill for me It's about the quality of presence You lead who you are You create leaders create the weather the culture The spaces in which people feel safe or not safe to innovate to take risks to do new things to explore to learn and So it's not so much a skill, but just a way of being So we need to change the title of your presentation Because that's what I'm gonna talk about skills Once you have the the presence you also need to operationalize it so I'll talk about that We'll talk about that in like 10 seconds. So thank you so much the panel for sharing this with us