 Hello and welcome to OEG Voices. OEG Voices. OEG Voices. OEG Voices. A new podcast bringing to you the voices and ideas of open educators from around the world. OEG Voices is produced by Open Education Global, a member-based, nonprofit organization supporting the development and use of open education globally. Learn more about us at oeglobal.org. There's much to take in at a global level. We hope to bring you closer to how open education is working by hearing the stories of practitioners told in their own voices. Each episode introduces you to a global open educator and we invite you to later engage in conversation with them in our OEG Connect community. Welcome to OEG Voices. I'm Una Daly, the director of the Community College Consortium for OER, a regional note of Open Education Global. And I'm really thrilled to be here with two open educators who are passionate about open education and particular open pedagogy. And first up, I'd like to introduce Alexis Clifton. She's the senior instructional designer at SUNY, State University of New York, Geneseo. And she's also a member of the Open Education Global Board of Directors. Hi, everybody. Great to be here. Wonderful. And next up, I'd like to introduce Cynthia Orozco. And she is the librarian for Equitable Services and an associate professor of library science at East Los Angeles College in California. Hi, everyone. Thanks so much for having me. I want to give you each an opportunity just to talk a little bit about where you're located and what's up right now. Maybe we'll start with Cynthia to reverse the order. Of course. Of course. I'm in Los Angeles County. I work at East Los Angeles College. Part of the Los Angeles Community College District we're one of nine colleges. We're an incredibly large community college system in the greater Los Angeles area. I am also living out here. And right now, you know, we're dealing with the buyers. Luckily I'm not too close, but we do have some other librarians and library workers in the district who are dealing with the fires, which is just kind of an added element to this whole COVID situation. So yeah, you know, it's the second week of classes and things are somehow have gotten a little bit more tough. Yeah. Thank you. Thank you, Cynthia. And Alexis, I know you're on the opposite end of the country. Tell us a little bit about what's happening out in your neck of the woods. Sure. So I'm my home, my home office these days is right outside of Rochester, New York. So upstate New York. And I live in a pretty rural area, which is fantastic for me. It's well suited. I've lived in urban areas and happy to be out here and with more deer than people neighbors. And the school I work for SUNY Geneseo is also a pretty rural campus, a liberal arts school as part of the State University of New York system. So we are in week two of the fall semester and we've had one active case and then we've had to shut down a couple of fraternities and sororities for parties. But so far, so good fingers crossed that things are proceeding pretty well. Yeah. Thank you for that update. So this summer there was quite an amazing publication called Open Pedagogy Approaches. Alexis was the co-editor of that collection and Cynthia Roscoe was one of the authors. And so I wanted to ask you about that. But first I thought maybe we'd check in and hear how did you get started in open education and what calls to you in open pedagogy? Sure. So, you know, I think I kind of happened upon OER work just in general at ALA. I was on a committee for the American Library Association for Information Technology and we had a guest speaker and she talked about OER and I was like, wow, that sounds really amazing and kind of just had it in the back of my mind. And then it really wasn't until I came to East Los Angeles College and I was in a position where I'm kind of directly more involved with students. And I thought, wow, you know, this is actually a really good opportunity for us to talk about OER, our students. You know, I think about, I can't remember the exact numbers but we have a lot of students who struggle to pay just the $46 per unit that is the tuition cost in California Community Colleges. And we have textbooks that are, you know, $100, $200, $300. And so that's kind of how I got into OER work. And then with Open Pedagogy, I think I was taking the Creative Commons Beta Certificate class with David Wiley and, you know, he was talking about his concepts of like the disposable versus the renewable assignment. And I can tell you that as a learner, I've had a really difficult time in education where a lot of times I just wasn't feeling it. So writing a paper at the end of the course just has never really kind of motivated me. It hasn't inspired me. But when I thought about what a renewable assignment could look like, something that really kind of resonated with students, something that they could take outside of the classroom, I think that's when I really was like, I want to explore this concept of Open Pedagogy and what it could look like in my classroom. And I teach a one unit library science class. Wonderful. And Alexis, how about you? All right, so huge shout out to my buddy Quill West, former CCC OER president and just huge OER community advocate because she was the one that totally introduced me to the whole concept. She started a job at Tacoma Community College about a year after I began at that school where I was an English composition faculty at the time. And I was already not using a textbook. I was just, I was teaching mostly online. So I just threw a bunch of sources in there and turned everybody loose on them and students were helping me find, figure out what the right ones were to use. And it was great. Quill comes along and says, Hey, did you know what you're doing as OER? And I said, No, what is that thing? And so a lot of continued conversations and refinement and projects we worked on together. And so she got brought me into the larger open community in the US. And so through her, I got to work on a couple of projects that involved David Wiley and others who started Lumen Learning. And so I ended up working for Lumen Learning for a couple of years and got a great exposure to projects, both OER and open pedagogy across the country. And so really engaged. And so take that with me, whatever I'm doing from here forward, definitely. Great. Well, so how did you decide to publish and be the editor of this new press book publication, Open Pedagogy Approaches? Great question. So pretty soon after I started the position, I moved to New York and to Geneseo for, I was the original executive director for SUNY OER Services. And so I did a lot of OER work all across our system, but also a lot of guest speaker positions and just kind of got to know the local area community. And so there was a librarian who used to work at SUNY Geneseo, but then transitioned to a job at University of Rochester, which is a private university in the city before I started at Geneseo. And so she heard through the great rhyme what I was up to, had me come up to the school. They had already had Robin DeRosa on their campus to speak about open pedagogy and got people excited. She got really excited about the concept. And so she and I kind of kept having conversations like Quill and I did. And so she is a librarian. And so I'm not primarily a faculty member anymore, but I still consider myself one. That's kind of the mentality I approach and so we got interested in that how it actually works between the library, faculty, partnership when you're talking about course design, including open pedagogy in that project, in that process rather. And so we had a couple of examples. She's done some really fun things in the past. I had some great librarian collaborations at every school I've worked with. And so we thought, well, you know, these are kind of unique projects, but they probably fit into a much larger pattern. And so we wanted to understand what the larger pattern was between how faculty and librarians could work together and are working together to really implement open pedagogy in their schools. She really took the lead. She's fantastically organized and fantastically motivated. And so she put together an editorial board of other librarians and one or two faculty members and a couple of students that were involved at different points at the University of Rochester. And then I was a non-Rochester person to come on board on the editorial team. And so I had done a lot of work with press books. I'd done a lot of work with Lumen and various open textbook projects, but I'd never actually put together a book of my own before. So that was really exciting to approach it from that side of things. And so we put out this call for proposals. Kim, did I say her full name? Kim Davies Hoppin. So she kind of, with the editorial board, we kind of came up with four big buckets of what we considered open pedagogy to include. So things like MOOCs, things like transitions to open textbooks and what that looked like and that process of transitioning into it. And then single student course projects and then whole course designs. So we had those kind of four buckets. And we asked, we put out the call for proposals. We got really involved with Rebus and the Rebus community. So they helped us broadcast CCCOAR and Open Education Global. Definitely helped us put the word out as well. And so we got a huge response. And every step of the way, we put out calls for peer reviewers, for editors, for copy editing. We got a lot of response and it was really just a really engaged community all the way through. So I probably over answered there, but I can circle back to whatever I want. But super happy that Cynthia's here to talk about her chapter, because I think it's really a core component of what the whole book is doing in one little nutshell. Yeah, that's pretty exciting. Yeah, why don't you tell us about your information literacy course and how you heard about the call for the open pedagogy approaches. Yeah, so like I said, I teach a one unit library science course. And traditionally it's eight weeks and it's very library research centric. So how to use databases, using keywords, using subject headings, all that good stuff. And more recently, you know, how to evaluate websites. And those are kind of the main themes of the class, but I found it really important to talk a little bit more about what scholarly communication kind of looks like just really broadly. When you're at a community college and I come, I previous to being at ELAC, I was at four-year universities. So getting to a community college campus, my first community college campus, I was just really shocked at how little institutional access we had to things. And so I went kind of four-year to two-year, but our students mostly are doing transfer or have plans to transfer. So I'm thinking, okay, they're going from kind of this information scarcity to being in environments where they have a lot more information. And so I kind of wanted to talk about that phenomenon with them. And also, I kind of feel like being in this kind of information scarce environment, you really value open access more because you just don't have access to as many things as your four-year counterparts. And so I, within the class, scaffolded information, literacy, and scholarly communication concepts, including open access. So just like, what does it mean to publish an article? What's peer review? How do publishers make their money? Et cetera, et cetera. And so I kind of sprinkled all this open access OER work within the class, and then at the very end, students have to write an annotated bibliography. That's their course learning outcome. I don't really like annotated bibliographies. They're useful, they're practical, but in terms of like really capturing what students have learned, not super inspiring to me, but it's kind of just, it is what it is, and I have to do that. But the more exciting final project in my mind is building this course zine. So a zine's just kind of the self-published bit of information around whatever you want to publish, and we published about the class itself. You know, the concepts we learned in the class, and we positioned ourselves as a student group to say, okay, if you had the chance to tell other ELAC students how to do research, what would you tell them? And so we made a Google doc and we kind of divvied up the work. So we had a lot of students who were very athletic and very loosey-goosey, whatever the class really wanted to do. And so they came up with their own title and they voted on a title. We decided like who was going to talk about databases, who was going to talk about keyword searching, who was going to talk about plagiarism, et cetera, et cetera. And then students were able to pick which Creative Commons license we used for the zine. They were able to establish their own authorship, and they were able to do that too. So when students create things, I want them to know that they do have copyright and they do have inherent rights whenever they're creating any kind of work and to kind of know what copyright they do have. And so, you know, students said they wanted their full names on things. Some students were first name, last initial, and some students were like, you know, I'm happy to participate in this, but I don't want my name associated to this at all. And just kind of a fun side note, I think what I was really inspired by when I was an undergrad student in the early 2000s, I had this terrible Zanga, it was an early online blog, and I just put my life out there. I just didn't know how, like, what an online presence looked like. I mean, it was early internet, but I was just thinking like, wow, I would be mortified if some of my really early online work was available online. And so I kind of thought some students might be like that. So gave them multiple ways to participate and make their presence known. And like Alexis, I'm not sure if I over-explained but happy to elaborate on anything in there. Yeah, that was amazing. And I, you know, I loved two points. And one was I loved how you used the framework from ACRL to maybe you can explain that better than I can, but the information framework, and you really use that with your students and you got feedback from them on it so that they actually understood, because I know often these frameworks that are written for faculty and librarians and so forth, they're not in language that students can really understand. So you gave it to them in a way that they could really respond to it and kind of rewrite it in their own words, which I thought was wonderful. And then also the fact that you explained to them what their rights were, and that it wasn't just, you know, we're going to all publish something and, you know, here's what we're going to do. And are you in or you're out, but you really gave them a lot of choices. So if I can, I want to echo both of the things that you just said, Una, which is really the using the ACRL framework. I have heard it floated around, but I'm, you know, that's not a framework I've ever used personally. And so a lot of the chapters that ended up being included in this book make reference to and explicitly quote from and talk about how that shaped the project that they did. But Cynthia's chapter did a beautiful job of actually explaining each of the six core components. It is six, right? Yeah. So the each one of the core components is actually a structural piece of her chapter. So again, that was what part of why the editorial team of the book put it in the introductory framework for the book because it really does an excellent job for our dual readership. You know, the librarians, the reading this book probably are familiar, deeply familiar with it, but faculty or other staff or students that are coming to this book probably are not. And so it's just a lovely way to introduce both the framework and how open pedagogy fits inside of it. So, but yeah, please do explain more about it because clearly I'm not the top of my game what it is and how it shaped your call. It's so funny that both of you kind of remembered the information literacy was a huge part about my chapter and I just kind of started talking and I didn't engage at all. So that's kind of horrifying on my part. So yeah, as a librarian I think or in any field you really kind of take things for granted and make assumptions and I just forgot that, yeah, my whole chapter is framed around the six frames of the ACRL information literacy framework. So those being, and I had to pull this up, I'm sorry, ACRL, I haven't memorized them. Authority is constructed in contextual. Information creation has a process. As a process, information has value. Research is inquiry, scholarship is conversation and searching is strategic exploration. So in a lot of the frames, I won't dig into each one, but there's a lot about centering students as information creators, getting students to kind of see this like greater information environment that they're operating in. Scholarship as conversation is one of my favorite things because it just shows information as not being static and it's a conversation that they can absolutely be a part of, even as undergraduates. And also just carving out that space to think about where they might be in the future. So okay, I'm planning to transfer, still figuring out what my major is, but how can I engage with the field? How can I connect with professors? So we talked about social media and a lot of times students will say, you know, I know Wikipedia is a bad source or I know Twitter is a bad source and it's like, no, no, no, that's not necessarily true. Let's think about how this information was created. Who's creating it? Is this good or not? Like what are our values and how do we perceive this information? It's not just good and bad. So students really get to test their kind of information literacy skills and their own kind of world frameworks and also kind of build like, what does it mean to have good information? I wonder if you, do you have a specific student in mind, maybe who went through the class who kind of had some deep insights or, you know, maybe could share something like that. I have two students that come to mind and they're on the opposite spectrum. One was a student who talked all the time in class, had lots of opinions and the other student literally never spoke to me but I feel like both of them had good experiences. So my first student, you know, he turned to work late, he came to class late and at some point I think in halfway through he said, you know what, I like learning but I don't like school. And that really, and again, like that really resonated with me. A lot of times it's like, what is our why? And I think a lot of times when students are doing work, that's very, what it's a good word to say it's like, I keep using this word but uninspired, like, okay, we're just going through the motions. I don't really know why I'm doing this, but we're doing it. And so I think for me, the biggest thing talking to this, the student was having students know what their why is, why are we learning this? Where does this fit into the larger context of my life? Not just professor telling students to do this because it's good for them, but what am I getting out of this? So I think about him a lot, you know, I like learning but I don't like school. So it's like, how can we facilitate learning in exciting ways? And then the second student, and this gets to a point that I kind of forgot to mention, he's very quiet, sat in the back, literally never spoke. And he also is one of the students that didn't claim authorship. He didn't want to be involved or have his name listed on our final zine, but we had this met a cognitive element of the canvas course that aligned with our in-person course. So every week, students had to articulate, you know, what they were learning, how they were learning, what they wanted to do after the class, and just kind of just keep their learning in check. And in those met a cognitive exercises, he always just had really fully fleshed out ideas and you can tell the wheels were turning. He was learning and he was having a good time, even if he didn't show it in person. So I think that shows that sometimes our in-person dispositions also don't necessarily align with, like what's actually happening. So he taught both of those students taught me a lot and I think about them all the time. So I'm going to go into further brag on Cynthia's chapter. If you're interested at all in how she put this assignment together, she shared all that with us openly, which was, again, a big part of Kim's and my motivation for putting this book together, especially publishing it in an open platform the way that we did. Kim and some of the other editors had experienced publishing more traditional, I believe through ACRL, I could be wrong, more traditional edited books. So we consciously chose not to do it that way, to do press books, to use the library instance of press books at Geneseo so that we could make the chapters as long as they needed to be and include all of the materials that people wanted to share with us. So, and Cynthia's chapter, we've got the full assignment and everything in the book is CC by, if this is exciting to you. And she does a great job of coaching you through how this could work in any kind of class, not necessarily an information literacy-specific class. So thank you for that gift, Cynthia. I appreciate that. Yeah, I think it's interesting coming from a four-year university where I used to have like a research component to my work. Now I really don't have to. Kimmy College, if you're a faculty, you don't publish. But I think there's a lot of really interesting work happening. So, you know, I think, Alexis, you for letting me even be a part of this publication. I actually, you know, I always have that imposter syndrome that I put in a proposal. I'm like, I think this is cool, but I hope they think it's cool too. So it was, it was really kind of just great to be able to share this with everybody. I think sometimes there's this work that's happening that no one really knows about and I'm always happy to connect with people. You know, you can send me an email and send me a tweet and I would be happy to discuss with anybody further. Cynthia, you mentioned to me a couple of weeks ago when we were setting up this time, you said, well, I'm reviewing it to teach it a little bit differently this fall. Did you want to share a little bit about how you might be doing it differently this fall? Yeah, that's a really, that's a really good thing that I should probably be thinking more about. But, you know, living in COVID times, doing this class completely online. Actually, you know, for the most part, it teaches class online. So that's, it's interesting, like this whole distance education thing in COVID is not equal to what distance education normally is. It's like I said, when I first, we first started, you know, so many of our students are dealing with just COVID stuff, you know, racial unrest, the fires in California. I know, like I've picked up a lot of duties that I don't normally have. So everyone's just kind of living in these, these weird times, these really challenging times. So I'm kind of wondering if it should even be like around a topical area, like how to, you know, how to survive COVID, how to survive fall semester around information because it's still an information literacy class. Yeah. Yeah. So I'm just, I'm just maybe reframing around our, like it would be silly to just ignore the times we're living in. So it's like, how could we kind of figure out an, because the zines are meant to be consumed by students after the class. You know, it's not, again, it's a, it's a renewable assignment. So what might be useful for the campus. And honestly, maybe that's not a question that I'm going to answer, but something that we figure out as a class. It's a little bit harder in an asynchronous format, but not impossible. So I might have to just get back to that. That's perfect. And so Alexis, is there any thought about a second version of the, of the collection or. So that's a great question. I definitely had it in the back of my head the whole time we were putting the book together. So we started on this book about a year and a half ago and actually like, okay, this is going to be a book. And so most of the way through was in the before time, before COVID. And during that period, I really was envisioning turning this into an open journal. And since then my position has changed. So I'm not dealing with or not, not working as close with open pedagogy projects. It'd be a little bit harder to justify running it myself, but I would fully support handing it over to someone that was interested. So hit me up. Let's talk further if you're interested. But I think we got a lot of submissions that were great, but weren't quite in the scope of this book, but could be further fleshed out or things that people proposed that they were going to do, but hadn't actually experienced yet. So I'd love to know how those came about. So there's definitely an ongoing conversation there that I hope we continue. And Kim and I will be presenting about this at a couple of different places, including the open education global conference in November. And we're going to include some of the authors, but also some of the peer viewers and copy editors. One of my favorite parts of this book is the student involvement all the way through. And this book itself actually became an open pedagogy project because there was a copy editing course at the University of Rochester that helped us copy edit several of the chapters. So there was students, you know, all of the layers of open just kind of unfolded beautifully with this project, but there there's definitely ongoing conversation, but no concrete plans. Thank you. And I'm really, yeah, I'm really glad to hear you'll be presenting on this, but the upcoming a week global and other conferences. So, you know, both of you have been sharing about COVID-19 and how it's been affecting your local situation. Do you have thoughts about how open education is helping during this time? Maybe either you personally or your students or perhaps faculty who you work with has, you know, open education, not only content, the open textbooks and so forth and open courses, but also open practices to make this situation better as we transition to just an education is going to be different after this. I actually have lots of opinions on this. So it's interesting. So at my campus, we don't have a big OER program. We don't actually have really, we don't really have much that is very official. It's very unofficial. I'm more like de facto OER librarian. So I get invited to do things. That's fine. But a lot of times when we're talking about OER these days, it's because we're in COVID. And it's because we don't have in person, you know, library reserves. We have to use OER. I'm like, okay, that's not, that's not true. So it's a really great opportunity to talk about the affordances of OER and how this can really be a sustainable future for us. And I'm really hoping that administration takes note of just the climate that we're in that we can't ignore that textbooks are so prohibitively expensive that sometimes they can, that there maybe isn't even an e-book alternative right now. So that's, that's something, what else was I going to say? You know, when you have so many thoughts and you can't think of like two. So there's that. And then also because I've been teaching students open access and OER for a while, I think that I'm just more motivated to teach students about OER and open access and getting them involved in the conversation. So I think that when we open pedagogy or open informed pedagogy, what I call it is that students just know that this exists. I think when we talk about OER or when we use OER and it's just like, here's a free textbook, students are like sweet free textbook. But when students kind of understand the greater OER open education movement, they're really kind of in a position to advocate for themselves, whether it's here right now in a specific class in a program on the campus, their transfer universities. And so it's really cool that I have some students who have been around for a while and they know that OER is a thing because they've been in my class. And so one of them is an associated students right now. And I reached out to him and I said, you know what, you remember OER? I would like to talk about it with the associated students. I want to make some noise. I just want to, you know, let's do a social media campaign. Let's make administration listen because you deserve this. And I don't have to explain it to him because he did the whole unit and he was in my class for eight weeks. Great. And do you also see some connection with social justice and anti-racism issues? Oh, absolutely. And you know, we're at our majority minority institution. And we have a lot of low income students. I think actually the majority of our students are on fee waivers. We do have book vouchers and things like that. But I think if we were really real with ourselves, we're always talking about student centered, that we're talking about equity. We're talking about guided pathways. OER is literally one of the solutions to all of these problems. It's like getting students to be successful in class as a librarian. I can't tell you how many times a student is like, I can't afford the book. So I'm going to get the free version for 14 days and do homework for two weeks. And then I'm just going to wing it. And hopefully I'll do okay. Can you imagine what students, how students could perform if they had access to the book all the time? All students. So, so yeah, I absolutely think it's a social justice issue. And at a campus like mine, I think it's especially important. And I'm just hoping that COVID might be a catalyst for further OER considerations. I've definitely seen a different take on that. So I've definitely worked. My own teaching experience was at similar institutions to yours, Cynthia, but at Geneseo, it's a much different atmosphere, both on the faculty and student side. And there has been, I think this level of assumption or comfortable assumption about. Oh, students are, you know, they have these resources. They have this knowledge and know how they can navigate this world. And then so this COVID area has kind of ripped off some of that veneer a little bit. And so I think everybody across the campus is forced to acknowledge some, some painful truths that they had been kind of maybe lost over. I don't think anybody was actively ignoring or, or, you know, I think everybody's heart was in the right place, but it was easy to overlook or not see some of those issues that are more evident now that students are having bandwidth issues. They're having, you know, difficulty accessing materials. Our faculty are having trouble, you know, we don't have the best internet connection in the rural area. So we've got several that have to drive places to give class or whatever the case may be. When you start looking at it from that perspective, everybody's much more open to how do we make this easier and accessible and keep us all engaged. I also want to be very cognizant that everybody's doing a whole lot that they never anticipated that they would be doing right now. So I don't want to add to anyone's burden, but I think open answers some questions or answer some challenges in much more seamless ways. So it's easy to have a conversation where open is the answer. Even if I'm not going into it saying this is going to be an open conversation or a conversation about where we are, open pedagogy. So it's kind of fun how that kind of organically evolves. Yeah. And the only, thank you both for sharing that. The only thing I would add, I guess, is I think with the open pedagogy component, it also can help elevate voices, I think that aren't heard. I hope that that that co-creation between teachers and their students, I think, can be really powerful for looking beyond just affordability. Absolutely. And there's some good chapters in the book, in addition to Cynthia's that address that more directly. There's an, let me go look at the table of contents because I won't remember off the top of my head, but there is a chapter specifically that talks about a Black Lives Matter movement at another SUNY institution, SUNY Potsdam. There's a really nice one from Texas. I must have the school, Texas Rio Grande Valley, the University of Texas at Rio Grande Valley, that's talking about expanding the state standardized test to include more people of Hispanic background and Latinx background in the question banks. So they're having education students help create those questions and do the archival research to do that. So there's some fun models. And again, it's meaningful work. It gets everybody engaged and it also expands who's in our academia. Wonderful. Any closing comments? Yeah, thank you both. I know I've started the book. I mean, I've read Cynthia's obviously, and I did see the Black Lives Matter when I haven't had a chance to read it yet, but it's a big collection. Yeah, there are 24 content chapters. Yeah, there's a lot going on in there. And the discipline range is wide, which is exciting to me. And the scope of types of institutions is really wide as well. There aren't as many community colleges represented as I would have liked, but that would be, again, a follow-up project would be really nice there. Yeah, so I have opinions on that. I think that part of it is because one, we're not required to publish. So a lot of people just take that and that's fine, right? I'm not getting paid for this. I'm not going to do it. But I do think there are people who want to share this information, but because it's not part of our work, or maybe people haven't published before, it's scary. So I wonder if there could even be, and I would be happy to maybe do something. It's so funny because I'm like, stop accepting things, do less work, but I keep doing it. I would be happy to say, like, you know, if you want to talk about publishing, if you just have a good idea and you want to get your idea out there, I'd be happy to help you with the proposal, and I'll help you with writing the actual paper because we don't really have that know-how or infrastructure to do it. Yeah, when I was a community college faculty, I presented a lot, but I never wrote anything up. And yeah, that kind of mentorship would have been very valuable to me. So thank you for offering that. Of course. Yeah, it's like, even me, like, when I put in the proposal, I'm like, do I have time for this? But I'm in a PhD program and I wrote a similar paper. So I was like, okay, I could just make it more useful and less theory-y and it'll be great. That's interesting. I didn't know that. That's cool. Oh, I made it a secret for two years because I wasn't sure I could do it. I'm still not sure I can do it. Yes, you can. That's what my students say. And I'm like, okay, I'm glad everyone else has confidence. Thank you for listening to this episode of OEG Voices from the Open Education Global. Our featured open licensed music today is Vast by OpenOcean, a Creative Commons licensed music found on SoundCloud. You can find this episode at our site, voices.oeglobal.org, and engage and follow up conversations at oegconnect, connect.oeglobal.org.