 So, yeah, I guess this one is going to be more informal. The main idea is to try to talk through our current trademark and logo and the policy for the trademark. And are we going to unfortunately or not? There's been some discussions in the past about this. But I think all the main stuff about the trademark part stopped. So it was an attempt to try to, you know, jumpstart it again a few months now. So, in the current status, if fortunately we don't have trademark policy right now, as far as I know, there's been a discussion some. But when there was an SPI, I think it was in Oslo. When there was a meeting, we talked about the trademark. And there was a going to start a trademark meeting at SPI. But I think that eventually got only to the draft that Benjamin in my portfolio has up there available at this week. Fortunately, we chose the right logo to make the open logo. Otherwise, we would have a lot of issues. That's the customer pressure. People, yes, could have logos there and get people to buy masks and t-shirts and all kinds of weird stuff. Since our official logo, it shouldn't be there. And actually, it was at the time, it was at some point in time, but it's been removed. I think we complained about that at some point in time. Fortunately, it's not very effective. Most people go with the late and taken logo to get all the t-shirts and all that stuff. So we don't know how the shop works. People don't actually diffuse anything. Yes, make the sign, put it in the shop, and get the benefits of all the things that have been sold. If these have been our official logo and we've got the one we called more close to, I don't believe we could, that's your threat? No? I think this would be a very good example of not enforcing a trademark on a logo. We're not very concerned about that, about this one. So if it would have been this logo on a t-shirt, then it wouldn't be an example of the... I mean, that logo is the one that we get out, put on more street license on, both are fake market. But people are not using that because they don't like that one, so people are using that one. Which, even if it's fake market, we don't worry too much about it, so we let people use it in all kinds of ways. But if that happened in our official logo, it's a very good example of how not to enforce a trademark and how to get it to do it and use it. So, I mean, we would be, we probably are not, even if it means one is fake market, we would probably not be able to enforce it on any label. Right, it's still worth keeping the registration there, because having it as a registered trademark means that nobody else can trademark it and then use that against us, which does happen, particularly in broken jurisdictions. So, what can happen if you don't enforce a trademark? That was a case that I was very well known. I don't know if this is the latest news or these chains, but the news was unable to set a registered trademark in Australia, right? I think they started first because it was a company trying to use the registered trademark and trying to enforce it used. I can give a summary of that. Yeah, thank you. So, it was a company for, so it was an organisation for Live It's Australia, based in South Wales, which is a community group that does Live It's Australia community stuff, organises them each year and so forth. The company in South Australia then decided to make their registered name, Live It's Australia, after Piper Limited, which is by sort of a different state to what Live It's Australia Inc. is registered in. And then they decided to try and register the Live It's Trademark. The trademark office then contacted us to see if we wanted Live It's Australia Inc. to see if we got any comments and we objected to it and went after it. After a few years, that eventually got rejected. At which point, we tried to register Live It's Australia Inc. in Live It's Trademarks and that didn't work because our paper work was really dodgy at the time. And following that, we would talk to all other clients. Oh, I've got a name. Who runs the subordinate termination before Live It's Trademarks? Oh, it's DL. Yes. Yeah, so I was DL when I was just trying to register the Live It's Trademark in Australia. And we got the paper work slightly more correct by that point, but the trademark office basically said that at this point it's a generic term that we don't think we will need a lot more information for anyone to be able to register. So the trademark office has said no one can register it, so at that point we don't have the problem unless someone else is going to register it and then use it against us. But currently, current status of the author might be that it's trademarked in the US, but not in some countries in Europe, but that's about it. So it's still open to the views of people, so what kind of views basically right now in the European Union or anybody could set up a mirror and vote. And distribute a dominated version of the opinion, and then that way you see that any scratch doesn't work or it's full of viruses or it's a computer, it's broken down and still using our name. That hasn't happened yet. People seem to actually do that with Firefox though. Because it's really well known on Windows that are by Google Ads or whatever and try to get them to download Firefox instead of Firefox. Well, the second one actually happened. The derivative changed his name for a private name that was Private Debian, and there was about a thousand private mailings as well at least. Actually nobody liked that because he was by saying because he uses the Private version, so is Debian the other version untrusted, so please change the name. He eventually changed the name to another name because of Private Manatees at the time and I think that's still a name. But we would not like actually people to use the name in some kind of compound thing that would kind of dilute our mark. Most of the derivatives are actually kind of poop names for them. So that was only one example but it could be more in the future. But I think we kind of did that nicely, even though the developer did like it too much. I think that went well. Right now people sell software named Debian or even including on the distributions or sorry on magazines and say this is Debian distribution when it actually eats, it's not. So people would get confused when they try it out and say, oh, this is Debian. No, it's not. Or this is crap or whatever. So even if they're not trying to go against Debian with a terminated version, they can still have something say it's Debian and that would confuse our user base. And people ask for logo views. I think this has come up sometimes. People have taken the logo and used that because they find it nice and for other products. I don't remember the specific case now but it was one case. It was logo was like maybe tilted 90 degrees or 180 degrees but it was exactly the same logo with the same writing and so because they liked it very much. So at that time eventually we might have the issue of then Debian and then Gain including because of Kmar views. So we're not very keen right now on forcing this. Sir, I thought that with the driven model like there were some fields in the market. Does someone use Debian for a vacuum clear? Yeah, that's right. The name they can use. I don't know about the logos. I don't know if the logos have a given feel. I'm not sure. I'm not a lawyer but I'm not sure if the logos have a specific realm of use. I think they're not that specific. For names there's like, you know, the different places you can use it is the section 42 I believe which is only software. It actually doesn't include educational stuff so people could start up the Debian University or maybe to give a Debian purchase or something. It doesn't include software services so people could start a company named Debian which provides Debian service related to the Debian and the software without using the trademark. But not specific to software. So I mean, if somebody started a company or there's actually some companies I've seen with the Debian name in it, if it's not related to software they're not using the trademark as long as it's a completely different feel. For the logo, I don't really know if that is limited to a given feel which I believe it is not. I'm not a lawyer so by the logo of trademark it's slightly different. So so this is that's why I said so it starts over the name Debian but something else. So one of the things that has come to a point and there were a few after years ago and there's constantly more every time you look, it's a lot of people between Debian as the top-level domain for whatever country. So if you take a look I'll try to dig a little bit on this and you will get it's very difficult to really know what they are feeling but there's some that kind of relate to Debian there may be some that even are registered to SDI because even if it's a Debian it doesn't miss the domain and they love to SDI even if SDI doesn't know about it but in the view of information it's listed as belonging to SDI so if they call actually they don't resolve to anything they just make issued by some guy and we don't know what it's going to be used to there's actually some commercial people that sell products that they call even they might sell Debian CDs we actually don't know if they're like vendors in our list or not and there's obviously some site is fighting over there I think there's a lot of them I counted and they were about 40 sites there I think there were about 40 sites first level domains using Debian excluding Debian.org but 30 different places which not too much but I think there were about 300 of them registered over it okay so this wouldn't be much of an issue if you weren't for the novice people that will go maybe first to their top level domain to find Debian then to Debian.org so right now we haven't had any issue of people getting mirrors trying to tell their Debian when they're not but we could have that at any point in time and we're not enforcing that we're letting just people go actually we're not able to enforce that because in most places we actually don't have the trademark so I mean people could register Debian friends without any problem because we don't have over in France they couldn't do that in Norway I believe and some of them in the UK not even in the UK but some of the places they could so we couldn't avoid that at any point so what's the status now of the trademark itself obviously it's released in the US as for the European Union I know of some research of the names some of which have been known to SPI even some organizations have asked for a license to SPI I believe the Norway people from Scotland have asked for the license even if they actually didn't need it but they asked for the license to SPI and that was on some council on some board meeting they were granted permission but we don't right now have a EUA a EUA so that means that there are some countries that have the trademark registered but some do not so we are not at all covered and actually some companies might have started to register the trademark to music which in this case in Spain actually it was when we did that in this case it was a guy we didn't know why it was a trademark in Debian it was known to us to I don't remember which mean by a thing he jumped to the news and we tried him to let go of the trademark and he didn't want to he ended up saying he was going to give it away for free but then he ended up asking for maybe $10,000 for the trademark so when in Spain the trademark registrations cost 300-400 euros so that's probably it was for expenses yeah for expenses and for a dependent trademark which he hadn't done at all because for all the time we were talking with a guy that was already a Debian mirror all the Debian cities in Spain include Debian names this is Debian based and there were magazines providing Debian CDs so he couldn't at all see he was defending his trademark eventually we found that all this discussion was known we didn't know this until beginning this year that Debian trademark he didn't register he reached in like three or four different chapters of the trademark sections but not in software section so we ended up saying we're going to let him go this is kind of stupid we're not going to find a trademark in one section we didn't know we were not actually using it it's not registered in the US actually we should have known better about trademark though we had some policy on what's legal and what's not we could have prevented all the stupid talking about that all these years because we would have known from the beginning that he was not actually going into the section that trademark is being used to I had to say this is the first I've heard of this has this been it was on Debian wasn't Debian very recent no I must have missed that did you know about this I wasn't aware that it had sorted itself out maybe yes he got screwed out of his BSP and we don't know we would normally read Debian Prior no it was in SPI in some point in time it wasn't just from SPI because I'm not in the middle of this no it was not I don't remember right now what we got there I don't think we can all be that smart actually the section the guy who registered trademarking has been there from the very first time when I sent an email to the SPI with all the paperwork that the guy had done so none of us noticed that he was actually not registering that on the ARC so that's from the very first email about this stuff we provided all the information of the sections and everybody missed it but so we don't need Spanish so I wasn't on the board then so until recently I think it was maybe when we discussed this again and might have been between the beginning of January February this year he was he's not even in this section so we're going to let it go I'm very glad now that we kept stalling this we found somebody who thought what was going on but actually we didn't appreciate anymore the back and forth powers to live against this guy which was one of the things the Spanish people were pushing for last year maybe two years ago so we we didn't ask for that anymore because we said what's the use but I think all the information was up from the beginning but either way there was actually two cases here the guy registered the trademark which is a different case from the guy that registered the domain so those are two different cases if the trademark has not yet been registered in Spain in the software category why are we not immediately registering in the software category we didn't do it at the time that was when we talked about it because when we originally talked about trademarks in the EU in the European Union somebody said that it was who was it so it is that actually we actually the Spanish association asked for a license for the first PI I wanted to register the trademark and we didn't do it because we were told that the trademark was going to be registered European so all the registrations that would mean that that registration would be able to complete but that was about three years ago and we don't know if that went forward no kind of registration would interfere with because as soon as the trademark is registered in European wide and the European registration for the trademark registration it applies to all countries but if you already have the trademark registered in a given country then you cannot do that that was three years we were told to not do it if I remember correctly the way it sort of goes is you register it in one country it then go it doesn't automatically but you can get it pushed up to a European wide thing where it then sits for a while and filters it down into all the other countries but if there's a problem it bounces back actually when I last heard you can do it directly and it puts down what else did you say? do you need anything about this? do what? are we doing this? can this be done by some UK person? we've got both the UK it's very active we've got more memory in the UK to now this should not be a problem but this is I don't remember this maybe I think this was lost amongst the death of the trademark committee because I think the people in the trademark committee were of this type from the beginning because I remember talking about this in Oslo about three years ago do you know any reason why we can't, why we shouldn't register it just here by it seems like obviously we've got to do it unless it's extremely expensive it's not that expensive I'll take that Neil and I will take that offline and we will sort this out if it can be sorted out so no, no, write down write down so however when we talked about this I was not involved in the trademark committee I would say that from what I remember at Oslo, we're right now at the same point we were like three years ago we're not doing anything more to enforce the trademark we still don't have a policy on how are we going to enforce the trademark if we're going to or even guidelines of what they should or not do regarding the trademark and I think that's the point we stand on we should be working on so the point is from now on to re-enact that committee or whatever or the work on the trademark stuff do we let it flow until maybe some of the piece is in the face so it's either we do something now or we just keep going as it is right now I think we haven't advanced too much, we don't have a policy or we have a draft policy that isn't right here it's rather simple and that's the one sorry can I just get this straight we have a trademark committee yeah SPI the trademark committee I don't know yeah no report I think it's just a matter of a second a second it's not I think we're only going to write some policy document or something the trademark committee now we got a report from the last board yes but that was not a report on this time so it does this, we have had a report in the last term so first of all the trademark committee that would be the first question mj is not here mj is not here mj is already gone now he's watching the stream he's watching the stream he's here there you go so he's on our same membership yeah you're reserving hashtag committee yeah he's watching the stream he's here, there you go so he's on our same membership yeah reserving hashtag committee oh there's a lot of people in that one so all current DPL what the hell was this drafted why does it have to be DPL for quite a long time membership is open by subscribing to the main list so is it in practice the case that only may go and mj and ray are subscribed are actually doing it I don't think mj is doing anything currently well didn't you write that draft oh yeah that's an old draft he has it online and that's the only thing I found related to the committee which is actually not on SPI but on his website maybe we should agree what we're trying to do so we've got this open use logo the swell logo and are we all agreed that the swell logo we're just going to let we will keep the trademark to stop anybody else doing it's over but we're not going to try to stop anybody using it I believe that the SPI isn't going to enforce it as an unregistered trademark except to make sure it's still available for everyone to use in particular we're not going to attempt to make sure that it stays a trademark if it becomes diluted then that's fine as long as it's available that's the official use logo we don't care about because nobody wants to use it so we're just going to that's no longer true if you look at the t-shirt next to you practice we don't really need to worry about that very much and we don't business room care very much what the license is on that logo so the well the copyright license for both logos is to be the MIT once that's announced without confusing everybody and the usage trademark license of that logo is to ask the DPL to give authorization and it's going to be related to Debian and the official Debian for whatever and with respect to the world of Debian is this proposal of many codes so we've got the word to do Debian as well and we're proposing to use this word the word Debian and the official use logo in the same way no maybe I don't know we don't have a real policy for it yet the only thing I know of is the policy on we can call people hacking on Debian something official you can call it something or other Debian maps so we've got SLX Debian maps that's a policy but in general the word Debian we have not mainly we've not really issued licenses for we've certainly not issued a or a blanket license for any particular class of thing and we've issued some specific licenses for people to do specific things and aside from that anybody else using the word Debian we will get into our people with we will decide on a case by case basis what we might decide to get into an argument with them or we might send them a license if we ignore them that's not a sense of the policy we must either decide what they're doing is okay and formally permit them to do it or we must threaten them with lawyers ask them to stop it we need to ask them to stop it in a firm convincing manner he's a naughty boy is that a general understanding because that's not written down anywhere no there isn't a trademark policy it's what we should be doing it's not what we are doing getting a policy reading down is actually very important and having that at the website and SPI also these individual Debian developers in particular countries who are part of some kind of local country organization should be encouraged that this trademark turns very to SPI or to their local associated money thing should talk to the TPL outposts I can assure you that both trademark and the domain so people don't get confused those are the main the main names of the trademarks but it's better to have them rather than try to use one to get the other one thing we don't have if you start making it it's the least of the different domains and where are they used and what for are they used so we could actually ask developers that do have the domain to provide information of what they're doing with it if they're DDs we're unlikely to have a problem with them so if you're a DD and you're in some country where Debian dot some relevant domain in your country is not already registered then you should register it and and then register it first to ask questions later and then somebody will be in touch or you should get in touch with somebody or park it or whatever yeah because actually we would be very easy to just point them to the main site so as DNS information to the main site that's actually what some countries have done they just take the main domain to the Debian dot org and that's it so it forwards all the are there any domains any cctlds or nptlds that don't that Debian dot something isn't registered it's available I suspect that Debian dot au it's not available yet maybe in the future next day there will be hundreds of countries where they didn't register are we going to do an underarm dot com excuse me that's all before your time that can't be before your time what did you say are we going to do an underarm dot com this was the very beginning of the oh my god what the fuck are they doing to our dnx where potter and gamble register bodypart dot com they wanted to swap right so are we going to swap on Debian dot everything right you're working that might cost some money that would cost a fair bit of money I don't think that's a work well maybe asking just people to monitor there we've got a DD in the country then I mean realistically we've got Debian dot org I mean it doesn't actually matter that much we've got the big three of them we've got Debian dot com we're going to believe maybe I'm just this is huge in your center but I'm struggling to believe that it's actually that big deal if we don't have Debian dot center but I don't think it's a deal I think we have to monitor it we don't want somebody to set up Debian dot org fr and set it up on the org so if we've got it in that country that's fine we can monitor it but I don't think we need to care about the I don't think we have to register every a couple of the main days for Debian I mean even if a local Debian developer wants to there's actually already 247 the question raised is can we make sure Debian dot bs is registered and went to the list of Debian dot orgs in there yes there we go yes output I mean it was only after a second or two it looked like that demand does not actually exist can you bring that back up I don't know what it is that looks like generic well cut things by WS yeah I think that's my SP providing out the generic cheese is that actually a big difference what does that mean that my SP is on crack so they provide out the main servers so that's the first one is my SP and those are the main servers I see why are we here all the information that came from your ISP out of his files but then it might be true what is BS anyway that's why I know it yeah but what's one of them being spun oh right because he's spun it yeah anyway this is not do we have a I don't think it's like this is a big because now we're I think the purpose of this bot is to try to figure out what the situation is and what the situation ought to be and to decide who is going to do the things that need to be done to get from here to there that's the general purpose of meetings so we've had the what the situation is has only written down some notes about you've written down some notes about what I think the situation ought to be or the three so we've got three relevant trademarks yes and so we need to write some instructions for DDS that's an action item some of these write some instructions for DDS and we also need to write some licenses which many things many of these things have already been done so we can just like when I say write licenses get Mako's license and if we like it and then get these things approved by the DPL so thinking about the trademark and copyright licenses for the logos in the name so we don't want to be in a position where some but downstream derivative don't go through some brand new change that we're going to be violating any of our trademarks obviously with the copyright change they're not going to be violating their copyright is there anything in the current Debian system that you would United States that Samber had guys had this problem some nice person decided to rip off the entire SAMSOS code and they had proof because their network went down and they were it's called Perl script that's the system that we're using it didn't help because they weren't able to copyright law in the United States is very odd, you can if it applies but you can't sue anybody you're getting the money from so but you can if you have a copyright certificate the answer is no pretty much no software in Debian as a copyright rules process certificate and we in Debian are not in a position to register the copyright because we're not the main copyright holders on the name the name is not copyright the name's not copyright you're confusing copyright and trademark and we do have the trademark stick confusing words to avoid an intellectual property yes, I hate it you've obviously lumped these things together in your head you need to tease in your head so if I were to take some Debian thing and hack it up a bit and then send it on to somebody would I be violating the Debian trademark on the name Debian or on the logo we don't use the official new logo in any brand name in Debian it's not copyright if I was in a way we don't because you can't go in maybe I suspect it is in the main copyrights we don't use it extensively I think we do have to go out of the way to actually misuse the official but the word is Debian if it's on hold it says this is a Debian CD yes and my, presumably, hacked up saying that it wasn't a Debian CD but it's still a Debian CD not an official Debian CD and the official Debian CD is built in a special room that causes the title to change I suspect so but you have to look at the CD so it's fine if we do some special switch we don't use the trademark because that means you can get our source code boom so there's already a deep brand of stuff done in Ubuntu which is incorporated into Debian through Debian installer I looked into the details so I can't know what I'm actually going to say most of the installation doesn't specifically name Debian so the voice that was done in Ubuntu for a while you would probably use the installer without having to have all the strings and re-translate them basically towards the main one so it's a technical translation so in order to avoid to have all the configuration Debian would move from most places I mean those that were still there it was set to be variable so they could have the variable and change that with whatever they want the question really is I mean deriving Debian at the moment very easy to do to put it quite mildly but it would be nice to make it easy to do and one of the things that we ought to sort out is that when you're going to derive from Debian you don't naturally end up in the position where SPI employers have to come after you because you've got some things I'm scripted somewhere I believe most of the technical work with that is very good but it may not be actually complete to be honest we can probably put off actually sorting this out until the deriving from Debian becomes a well it's common in the sense that there are whatever you would hunt from 30 people doing it but it's still not very hard would it be worth writing another set of instructions for deriving this I think in general a set of instructions for deriving this would be a very good thing but at the moment if you're trying to write the set of instructions for deriving this you can go back that could be part of the trademark policy I don't get you I have a section for that I would say you have to watch out for this and this or we don't have to ask you for anything you don't have to ask for the license even though the technical features are not there yet you can still say please take care when you do this don't put the name of Debian in your city to distribute or name derivatives like Debian whatever try to use different names we should certainly mention that in the trademark policy well what I don't think the derivatives is that there are quite a few derivatives that they would like to say we're based on Debian because it's trademark so we can't do that without either violating the trademark but based on they can do that we're not going to violate them at the moment if they call themselves something rather Debian they definitely can't call themselves trusty Debian for example because we've already gone at someone for doing that and they probably could say based on Debian but they're often just not confident enough to do that so it would be useful to have an explicit policy that says derivatives you should say you're based on Debian if you want to approve if you're saying you are based on Debian if you are in fact substantially based on Debian and even if that's not necessarily even if you don't actually need a license for that legally it would still be helpful rather than saying it we've gone to the man phase many of them are saying this is based on Debian and even some are rebranding that way so it's the same it's the Debian software and the name of Debian will go for sometimes Debian well I don't know that Debian developers are probably great yeah yeah of course but there's a concept for that in the application people go get one and apply it in their way so right now the policy doesn't cover that he doesn't mention it's probably okay for most jurisdictions because it's just the true facts and you're not confusing but we don't expect that to arrive they've got quite enough headache trying to get that engine to work without having to worry about trading on board if we just told them that not only do we commit this but we actually would like them to wouldn't there be some special logo sticker things I think on their websites so yeah so we did or at least I did try and get a deriving brand as distinct from the open-use logos and a lot of people seem to say that why do we want a separate logo for this instead of just using it as well and at the time we kind of couldn't do that but there's no reason for us to do that now I think we should encourage developers to use this as well can they do that now they can do that now according to the new policy which may not be fully propagated but I think a deriver can now be reasonably confident in assuming that even if we haven't quite made it for sure I think they always could use it because the policy was you may use this to refer to the deriving product or the deriving distribution which based on dervium is in fact what it's doing but the question was whether that's actually what we wanted to do and so does anyone here disagree no many of the logos are suggested especially under some drift as well yeah and the one that I quite liked was I wanted for a different sub project so do we encourage the use of the logo as in different logos or like getting part of the logo we encourage them to take as well and do something nice with it exactly if they want to do as well as the console or they want to build the swirl into their existing their own logo and trademark it or if they want to have the swirl in amongst a little by other things on their website whatever they like we should encourage them to make full of free use of it or something very encouraging phrase like that it's official logo always red because then they can make it blue sort of that that you can find oh there's a top one yeah and there's one that's actually one reference why I made shadows right right okay this is getting a bit so we have an agenda for after meeting them keep working on it so that's going to change right and make devices we probably have to write some trademark policy so there's two the thing really is a trademark policy is the wrong way right we need two separate documents one of which is a set of licences a licences formally legal permission to do something and that document should also address some of the informal encouragements of what to do and that's an instruction to people who might want to use these logos and the word Debbie and so forth last time yeah and there's a separate document which should probably be in the developers reference or something which says if you are a DD how you should be happy okay yeah guidelines guidelines on what you should do and who you should talk to and stuff like that so that's one thing we can send we can send this into a project yeah yeah so we're done next stop then is there any trademark policy for this one yeah he won one 15 minutes and then we'll have an hour actually this is similar we'll have an hour and then we'll take the first one we'll have we'll have 15 minutes we'll have 15 more minutes yep this is good actually you have 50 more minutes just go