 Okay 633 I do expect other folks to show up, but let's get started so that we can cover the ground we need to cover Welcome back everyone. I want to greet Nick Connor We wave and just say a quick hello Hey everybody good to see you all you can can you explain what your role is so the folks know I can sure try My name is Nick Connor. I'm a community liaison with the Montpelier Roxbury Public School District It's a new role this year really doing everything I can to be supportive of students and families both inside and outside of schools Attendance is certainly a piece that I dial in on but engagement in general Supporting families that that may not be engaging for a number of reasons and really helping to navigate some of those barriers They may be facing when it comes to engaging in school So that means a lot of home visits with families that means a lot of time on the phone with families Just spending a lot of time out in the community learning and working alongside our families in the district Thank you very much Okay So Because I designed these meetings to be only nine minutes long We are going to be constantly up against it in terms of time on the other hand, we'll all get home to families or Dinner or whatever else we have on our agenda who's just joining us now. Oh, hey, right. How are you? I'm sorry. I couldn't kept trying to make me log into the different account. I don't know what's going on. Sorry We're glad to have you we just got here and Nick Connor introduced himself, but We are ready to roll. Okay. I am looking for any public comment. There'll be any people who are not on the committee I'm not seeing any virtual hands And I'm not seeing anybody here in the library with me So we're gonna move on to consent agenda Which would be approving the minutes from the last meeting I sent those around Shortly after the that first meeting and then again today. Does anybody have any? edits or revisions to those alright I don't know if I want to do silent. Silence is is a scent, but let's try for thumbs up visually If you're good with those minutes. All right, fantastic Look I'm already out of order I have welcome Nick Nick Connor on this part of the agenda, but here we are Okay, so I I'm gonna I did it in writing, but I'm gonna do it again in person I'm sorry that I was late getting you the draft survey. I got it to you guys midday today and my goal was on Friday part of that is my Inclination to keep working on it and I need to stop working on it and trust you all to Contribute significantly to it. So here we are. I know that a few people had a chance to Review the survey draft earlier today, and I'm grateful for you giving that giving that your time Before we get into revising it and giving feedback I just want to review that I think it's important to think about The this written survey is only one of several tools we can use to engage with the public But I feel like it's important to get this one as close to right as we can because it will many of the other things that we did We'll build off of this just the same way I introduced the Scope of inquiry last time sort of the areas that I thought we should be Investigating as we as we engage with the community That was partly a structure for me as I would design something like the survey or I think about community engagement The the scope of inquiry was a tool and then this survey also is An important tool in the sense that for example if we had if we had left off questions about academics That will be a glaring absence and it would Handicap us as we go forward and try to get a good get good information So I've allocated it a bunch of time tonight to go over the survey draft review it get get feedback the Results from the survey need to be information that we can use share communicate to the board and the public For me at least one of my goals is that we have high participation. That means a lot of people engaging with this and filling it out One of the explicit goals of the board and of mine is to include as many Underrepresented voices as we possibly can in this survey and in this process broadly And to make the survey and our process accessible by most are all people in our communities And I mentioned that explicitly because as both Mel and Sigrid mentioned last time not everyone interacts super well with a written survey or an online survey and And so I just wanted to be mindful of that and think about ways that we can Help folks engage and give us the same kind of information that we're looking for in the survey Even if we do so in a conversation or with drawings or things like that So that's to me, that's the that's the broader frame is that we want this to be a tool that's useful for us and from which we can build out community engagement public gatherings or phone conversations or in person visits to classrooms and things like that Revision process so Many of you are probably familiar with working on shared documents where people can come in and do sort of real-time or Asynchronous editing or suggesting and then the sort of document or the draft moves along to a place where it's mostly final Because this is a public and transparent process That's not something we can or should do and it means that the significant decisions about what we're doing our Process and things like this document need to be made in meetings like this where we are our deliberations does amongst the public so I draw hey Mel I Drafted a survey that has 30 for some questions, which is probably too long And since we're going to be revising it in real time together Yes Mel will you remind me if I don't mention it in the next two minutes to talk about live transcription? So because we're going to be revising this in real time together with the committee of 18 19 people I want us to focus I want to ask for your comments first in terms of big changes Holy cow, Nathan. You totally didn't address academics. That's a big miss. We need to address that right now And then we can move into a phase two of wordsmithing and you know, I think I think we could write this a little bit better Or I don't think this is as engaging as it could be things like that so basically Bigger bigger picture questions and bigger picture Revisions and edits first and then we'll get down to the grain and their stuff I mentioned in the email that at least from my experience I find it easier to respond to And give feedback on a written document that someone else has already drafted I find it harder to think about that document or Whatever instrument it is and think about what's not being asked or what's not included in there that should be in there And so that's my biggest Request of this committee as we go through this process this evening is to think about What questions are we not asking? What areas are we not addressing? So I know that's difficult thinking but that's my that's my ask and then the last thing To think about is in terms of audience for a survey like this Both our overall process and the results of this community engagement process need to Speak to the vision for the district for pre-k all the way through 12th grade and that's a big range Similarly if we're engaging with younger students older students adults in the community teachers, etc. This survey is Is going to be engaged Going to be filled out by many different people So I I started a draft that included sort of a branching survey where if you answer that you're a parent It takes you to one set of questions and if you answer that you're a student it takes you to a different set of questions and So far I've elected to discard that draft and go with a uniform survey that I think most people can engage with So that we're getting uniformers, you know, we're getting not uniform responses, but we're getting responses to a uniform instrument I'm happy to debate that but I want to make that visible The other piece of this Last meeting when we talked about the scope of inquiry in the categories that I had drafted and I'd gotten input from folks in the district Some of the comments were wait a minute if we if we define the menu of options Then we're constraining the way that people might think about visioning for the district And that could be that could limit the results we get and I think that that's a really great observation and So within this draft what I attempted to do was to start with broad open-ended questions And because of the way surveys work We can we can make it so that the person responding to the survey doesn't see the more granular more specific Questions that are later in the survey at first they do, you know blue sky big picture thinking where they're generating their own language and then The second phase of the survey is more granular and specific. Please, you know choose the most important characteristics in this category And things like that. And so my my strategy was to try to encompass that feedback with early questions that are big and open-ended and then Middle stage questions that are middle and late stage questions that are more specific That doesn't mean we can't do something entirely different where we Don't do the really specific pieces I had another committee member comment one-on-one the email that They were concerned that if we asked only big broad questions, we would not We might not get the sort of quality and detail responses that we seek so I think it's a it's a balance All right Later on in this meeting we will talk about distribution strategies. How do we get the survey out there? How do we get feedback and responses? I Would love at some point when we talk about distribution strategies to talk about Participation goals and just have people name, you know, I hope we get I hope we get 10 people to respond I hope we get 100 people to respond, you know naming participation goals Last meeting both Mel and I think Sigrid mentioned strategies for alternative engagement with Younger folks or neurodivergent folks or others for whom again a written survey may not Be the best avenue and I'll ask Mel and or Sigrid to Share some ideas that they have during the meeting tonight and anyone else. It's not just not just for those folks And then we if we have time we will talk about schedule for Community gatherings how we will manage coded safety within those gatherings and what roles committee members can take in working with the survey working with community gatherings, etc Okay, thanks for listening to all that so I Have a draft of the survey open on my On my machine and I will take notes within that on commentary I'm this is a time when I'm going to probably twice maybe three times Make sure that we essentially go around in a virtual circle and we hear feedback from anybody or from everybody Let's see For lack of I didn't do a committee a circle order tonight Hold on Let's go with Tina Susie Sigrid followed by Rhett Nick and Merrick And if let's start with big observations first and then we'll we can get another round of granular stuff And I'll keep going down the list three at a time Tina go for it And Nathan I I have to say I appreciate your apology But I really want you to give up the document you're working on sooner because I like to read it sleep on it Come back to it and try it again. So next time a day or so. Thank you, Nathan Big picture It's too long nobody's nobody's going to survive this I don't think and I Think there are too many free responses. So I appreciate hearing you say your theory of sky blue and then go to the specifics of it but some people I think will be taken back by Having to start out something and compose it themselves when they're not too sure about what they're thinking. So those are my two biggies Thank you Susie I Agree with Tina. I felt overwhelmed my brain. I had to read the first question after the You know self identity part the first question I had to read like three or four times and I was just having a hard time Understanding what was going on I Before hearing your explanation I was thinking that I personally my brain would feel better if it was flipped and it was more Specifics first and then more open-ended near the end Kind of like the way You know tests are set up with like the essay at the end by then your brains kind of warmed up in Not necessarily fed the ideas, but you're cut. It's my brain worked better that way thinking like that So I do think that most people in some way Have some kind of neurodivergence in their brain works better in different ways than others So I don't think we can get this perfect for everybody But I do think it's too long and I fell overwhelmed too Yeah Before we go to Sigrid I want to Speaking of different ways brains function mal-requested that I turn on a function in zoom that I didn't know existed called simultaneous Transcription and so on your screens at the lower menu there should be a cc for closed captioning in the live transcript option If you are interested in essentially having this closed captioned instantaneously Courtesy of zoom which is as I'm observing not perfect, but decent Please go ahead and turn that on and thanks to Mel for raising that as an accessibility point And walking me through how to do it Okay So I also just want to say real quick that I really appreciate your thoroughness and how long The original draft is and I think we can go from there, but that was a lot of work and that was awesome Yeah, I I would say exactly the same. I think I was one of the people at our first meeting that Wanted to to hear from people without specific prompts I don't know if that was in the context of a survey or if it was in the context of just discussion. So Whatever context it was if it was in the context of a survey, I was wrong because you know this I agree that That and I with The first two comments, but I think you know just a bigger picture thing to think about is what what Purposes surveys serve how how they you know, how can they how they can be really good tools and what contexts they can be really good tools and what context they can't and That so that is in addition to What the survey looks like how long and what the questions look like? I think that's a thing for us to really think about as well Okay. Thank you Next up Rhett then Nick then Merrick. It is very long. I'm thinking as I speak with people The conversation is going to depend on the person. It's going to depend on my relationship and it's going to need to have a lot of flexibility and so I'm hoping that we can essentially Sort of zone in like kind of hone in on some themes that we want to hope to get at and then maybe expand from there to more specific questions depending on the conversation and the relationship and I Just and we can send this to a lot of people It feels like to get good information. I'm going to need to talk to people in person and this is not going to be the basis of that conversation And that also applies to the demographic stuff, I don't know It'd be great. I'm just I don't know how much flexibility each of us can have How You know, we're all going to be able to get different information based on the relationships that we have from with people and I hope that all of that can Find its way into this work I don't want to exclude anybody because I don't want I don't want a conversation between any of us and another person to sort of You know have more or less value just because it's the difference between a five-minute conversation and a 30-minute conversation Those are some of my thoughts I guess I Read I just want to put a pin in the question about flexibility and come back to that. I think it's a good question Nick Yeah, just I think some initial thoughts that was too short. No, I'm scared. I think that One of the things when I was considering the survey and how it were really truly trying to get a great deal of engagement and Here from folks that we ordinarily don't typically hear for is like designing from a margins, right? And so I think about a family that is maybe The least likely to do this and how can we make it accessible to them and if we can make it accessible for them We're gonna make it accessible to a more universal group And so that's something that kept kind of coming up to me Which is maybe that that second tier that you were talking about Nathan initially of maybe that's just the formatting of the questions and things like that So I think that's that's certainly something that I kept thinking about as I read it the other piece You know hearing too many open-ended not enough open-ended, you know, the opportunity to have a close a closed question Followed by an open-ended response like just having that opportunity for for many of the questions For those that want to engage in a longer response, but it's not a the only way to answer this question piece. So Yeah, I think those are some of my initial thoughts Eric Alrighty, so I agree with what pretty much everyone's already said about the survey being too long I'm not really sure if these questions like are optional or not And if they were optional, I feel like that might provide a way for people to still answer Like the free response questions that they want to yet skip others which might provide a way for us to Still like include those questions But I'm at the end of the day I think we should make the survey like sure yet open so keep so we can get the most responses possible and the most valuable responses Thank You, Merrick Next up Melissa followed by Libby followed by Joe It's Melissa me. I remember there was another Melissa Mel Hauser, that's you. Okay. Great. Perfect. Okay. Sorry about that. Um, so, you know When one of the one of the many huge challenges with this project is that we have an audience of dysregulated people in a really low bandwidth state and Sometimes when I have conversations with people about big picture stuff It's almost like when the language is so idealistic and so zoomed out um People can't engage with that because they're like treading water and trying to survive so and that that that that really speaks to that, you know, designing designing from them from the margins and like designing from the lowest bandwidth is Is also a part of that So when I think about like how to make the language of this more inclusive, you know It's it's it's almost like when the the menu options when there's too many of them or That the the language that are offered it almost seems like it's like it's like how people think like self-care is like what you do when you have time It's like a lot of the words of like excellence and these, you know These really important words, but like you can't some people can't some brains can't get there because it seems like, you know, like really Sorry, um It doesn't feel attainable like it doesn't feel or tangible maybe what do you wish What do you wish your What do you wish your kids school experience was like just more kind of everyday language? That's my that's my zoomed out approach I could just see, you know, I if I gave this survey, you know In addition to echoing comments from from everyone who's preceded me if I if I gave this survey To you know, any of the patients I saw today any of those family they'd be like Yeah, maybe I mean just like it Even me I would look at this and I would say oh I feel shame because I wish that I could engage with this But I can't So how to get to the core of what day-to-day life is like for families and students, I Think we have to start with that before people can feel safe enough To zoom out at all No, thank you. I want to I want to circle back after we've heard from other folks to talk about the Your comment about everyday language Many other things as well, but that's something sticking with me Libby Yeah, I was gonna ditto that Nathan. You are obviously the husband of a teacher And writing this survey that that comes clear Through this because you know the language of education the jargony language of education So I think I'd agree with what a lot of people said I I just asked us to think about what the purpose of this survey is Is it a jumping off point? Because if it's a jumping off point that it should be short and sweet and get get at some very quick quick hits that We could elaborate on in conversations Later on because I think that's where we might get more bang for the open-ended buck With some of the earlier questions in the survey So so my comments would just be we do need to design it that people are going to answer it And we want to think about that all of our people are going to answer it And we want to think about the purpose behind that and and why we're asking the survey because it It seemed it seems like with this initial draft we're we're going for the home run And is that what we need in an initial survey or do we need just a you know a bunch to get on base? To continue the analogy Joe Carol Well, let me thanks for the baseball analogies. Love that. I have just two things Nathan. The first is that In the section 22 the L through R I think I'm just wondering about listing out what appears to be like subject area bands I was just curious about that. I don't know one way or the other But I do think as fun as it might be to Get data about like what folks want in terms of subject areas I also worry a little bit about that and think it's too granular for the scope of the survey And then my second thing is just an appreciation. I also like the free response options underneath very carefully curated choices for the closed questions and I think also because I'm a teacher it actually Didn't feel terribly long for me But I just want to recognize that should probably just because I've had hundreds of surveys come across my path and sort of My career so it didn't it just there's so much on there that we're trying to get at that I I could understand and forgive the length But to the extent that decision is possible and redundancies can be eliminated game on I think we should do that So, thank you. I appreciate all the work that went into that Thanks, Joe Um Just putting a pin in a couple things Libby I do want to return to in the same conversation as everyday language the jargon question And then Joe appreciating you calling out the section 22 subject area bans I left that in there partly as an exhibit of okay, everybody watch me go down the rabbit hole and It's a little bit of a warning, you know, it's already too long. It's a little bit of a warning to all of us that In many of these areas we can get into the weeds very quickly And so I'm trying to try to walk that line Okay, next up For voices emory followed by Elliott followed by Dottie after which Kale, Caitlin and Amira so emory you're up I Agree with everything that a lot of other people have said about Making some of the questions optional just so that way if people don't want to like go through the entire survey Answer a single question and give their own things that are the most important to them But one other thing I had is for the like more specific close-ended multiple choice questions some of them have like a Lot of different entries that you could respond But it they also label like a cap of five that you could select or three of these can select so Taking away that limit or else breaking the questions up a little bit more just so that way like if these things are important to people they're able to kind of Say that without feeling like they're over selecting I Definitely want to come back to that question because that points to a lot of things so emory. Thank you for that Elliot Muller Something that I was just thinking is I think I like I understand why Narrowing it in but it's someone who gets They're confused a lot I Like I Personally feel like if I didn't know what I was supposed to be like talking about more opening the questions Overwhelmed and then not I will turn Can't heard better now. Yes Just like starting with kind of more specifics to know what the surveys more Just I don't know if I would work for everyone but like personally Overwhelming I don't know what more specific. It's I don't know Thank you, Elliot. I Think speaking for myself. I think I got the bulk of your Comments did anyone else is anyone else want wish for recap because I want to make sure we hear that everybody heard Elliot Okay Elliot are we coming through clearly to you? Okay, fantastic Dottie yes One of the things as I read through the survey That occurred to me is that I think if we were to put the questions first and Put the Democrat I mean demographics at the very end that more people would answer truthfully and complete it That's one and I would like to think also that our product is we want to add You know what what people think the end product should be from education Because that will tell you a lot about the expectations that children in the schools are experiencing in their homes and We should ask at the end of whatever questions we Provide in a survey. We should ask is there anything else you wanted to add and And and the end with the Democrat demographic section. That's all I have to say and I sort of agree with a lot of the Ideas that other people have brought up about simplifying the language and maybe Reducing the range of questions to smaller Increments so that people feel like oh, I can sit down and do this But if they're going through page after page Some of them are going to stop and just shut it off or they're not going to send it back to you That's my comment, but I thought you know you covered a wide range of issues Thank you, I especially appreciate the comment about the order of the sections I Gave a decent amount of thought to where to place the demographic questions and where to place the content questions and I I'm open to either version To be candid by placing those things first Serve two purposes one we really are trying to Include underrepresented voices and so that's information. I don't want to get I would prefer not to get a bunch of survey responses and then Nothing or not a lot of information on demographics So we don't actually know if we're reaching the Russian to reach and by putting it up front I felt like it's a version of sort of our own honesty and transparency that we care about this But I'm certainly open to to discussing it. Thanks for that Well, I just don't want I don't want to discourage People who are not used to doing surveys from you know, so this is going to say too much about me And the opinion won't they won't like my opinion Right. It's just that You know, I can think of a lot of people who won't complete it if they Have to go through that identification of themselves first Good and there's some there's some subtle choices we can make in there as well Up next kale followed by Caitlyn followed by Amira and then Amanda um There's a few things In the beginning, I think Rhett and Sigrid talked about this about Is this more of like the and I think Libby did too, but is this more of the home run or just like the font onto first base and At least from my own perspective this survey does seem like you're just trying to get the get the home run You know get all the information in but I think you get more honest answers in that first face-to-face like talking with people and I'm wondering if This should be like the the gateway into more of like a per like meetings within the school or whatever There's something like that. I also wanted to say something about there was one question. We got what it was this is very like those about age and it said 18 and under and I felt like If we're talking about schools the people that we are asking about a lot of like that are Being impacted by these decisions Would all fall under there and I think the difference of a freshman or even like a kid in middle school to a kid who's 17 or 18 looking at college is so different and so Vital to the to why we are doing this that I think maybe a little more separation there could be useful Great observation. This is where this is where I get caught pasting in Survey choices. I've used in another venue and didn't examine them carefully for oh, right We want to be talking to school kids a lot. Thanks, kill Katelyn Brower Okay, I'm so excited to talk So I definitely agree with a lot of what's been said I want to definitely build off of what Nick and Mel mentioned and I think Libby. I love what Nick said about building from the margins I think that's very poignant and I love that term and I think we should definitely Think about that as we're doing this survey I also was just thinking about like the name of what we are and we are a visioning committee So then I was thinking a vision board and that sort of feels like it does feel like the bigger picture Like what are your hopes and dreams for either yourself and your education or your kids? Self or your kids education And then just coming from a place of like what do you need for support? Like what specifically there's your family What would it look like if you had? The the best support that you could have So I guess yeah, just building off of I Think what all of you are saying about like this is getting to the nitty-gritty before we're ready for it So for now, that's it. Thank you kill Amira Okay, so a few things Um, I didn't I didn't think of it before but Cal brought up a really good point about like the age Groups and like being 18 under and if we're really trying to focus on the demographics I feel like that should be something we should focus on too Because the students are a really big part of it and they definitely have very good minds That's so focusing more in on that could be very helpful. Um, that also that leads me into my next thing of Uh, like making the language of like the way the questions are phrased like more like Terms because also if we're trying to reach more students Younger the younger the students go the harder it may be for them to understand the questions. They're really asking um, so I feel like even as like me being in like one of the older grades I even had like reread some of the questions and like really try to understand What I was trying I was being asked and what my answer would be for those questions So I feel like it's really easy to get lost in them um Not only that it's so long and there's so much to take in on so many different aspects that I feel meet Or even just like something as Little I guess it's not really little but it's kind of a bigger thing is just like Fixing no those questions are phrased can really help Get better responses. Um, I also kind of agree with everyone else about um, like these questions are a lot of questions, I feel like We'd get answers actually having a conversation with people about them because Sometimes it's hard to really type out what you're trying to say And what your words are actually trying to mean. So that was just a few of my Hey, school we didn't Thank you so much and I um Amira is not the only one who's mentioned this but the idea of of using direct conversations as a as a major tool of ours Which is definitely part of the plan and I think that we should talk tonight if possible if we have the time about How we imagine this process? Going forward Uh amanda Thanks, uh everybody and nice to meet you. I'm sorry. I couldn't be here last time Mondays are really hard for me. Um, but I am here today um, I think Yeah, I think it's a little long. I think the description of the Demographics could have a better explanation of why we're collecting demographics Um, and and that could be optional, but just being able to explain why it's really important for people um And and then I I I see someone this vision as I feel like there was missing a little bit of of the adult portrayed question around like what knowledge and skills um, perhaps adults needs to have in order to support students um And I think like thinking of the excellence in education as like what do we want our students to graduate with Could solve some of those questions and like having this vision and be Like was that graduate portrayed was the adult portrayed and what are the systems? Shifts that we need to have which will include some of that infrastructure piece of it um Just like thinking vision right like the big thing for me What that was what uh came into my attention? And so I think everybody else Yeah Okay, I just can you repeat what you were so I got I was following you through um A better picture of the adults into the knowledge and skills that adults need to support students and then Can you repeat what you said next please? Um, just just what are the shifts? What are the system shifts that we need to have in order to be able to do that? so that will go into Some of the questions that you have around Uh, either values So one example could be you know, like if people were this is just an example If you were to think that we're in cognitive school versus become a restorative school, you know, like things like that that these are all jargon but Things that can then be condensed into that Are common language, but so Being able to think in that in that sense for me as my brain thinks it's what is helpful um But I do agree that too many open in the questions without much context It kind of it can be it can delay some of the work that we want to do And I really love the values. I think values is really important when it comes to this Thank you so much um So i'm a little bit nervous about this next stage because It risks me trying to respond to all these comments and me being the only speaker I'm gonna do a little bit of that, but I want to call out some questions that I wrote in my margins Based on some of the feedback one that amanda just pointed out and that came up earlier Libby called it out as jargon and somebody else called it out as you know, sort of everyday language One of the questions I was asking myself as I drafted this was Do we need to do we wish to at any point whether it's in the survey or somewhere else? provide definitions to Folks we're talking with for example uh social social and emotional learning is a is a A piece of the education I Explicit education that is addressed in my clear rocks grade schools now That idea of explicit education around social and emotional learning It's not something that I had when I was a kid in school And so i'm assuming that therefore it's a new concept to Many people my age, especially those who don't aren't married to a teacher um Amanda just raised the point Arguably again when she called out, you know the difference between a punitive school and a restorative school Um in both of those things probably would require a little bit of explanation for some folks We don't need to answer that right now, but I just want I want to make sure that Um the questions that are being asked are in everybody's head as we consider how we adjust this um I want to talk about how we imagine this process and I i'm going to stick with liby's home run versus uh base hit or bunt because I did I did write the survey as as the home run right if if if I had my way In in my perfect world Everybody in the district every every taxpayer every kid every adult Would fill this out completely and give us all the information and we'd have just such rich responses It'd be really meaningful to the board and the public could also see it It can be many things this could be this this version or even our edited version could never see the light of day We could choose to to do smaller segments We could use this as a as an outline for one-on-one conversations There are a lot of ways that this can happen, you know and can be moderated I get a little bit stuck between a love of numbers and quantity of data so quantity of respondents If you know if we had we had 500 people respond to this I'd be over the moon because we would have a ton of information we'll be able to answer You know somebody said well, what did the what did high school age kids say? We could answer that question because we might have enough data points to do it so I I Get excited about that on the other hand The in-depth conversations when somebody, you know, you have the ability to say to a neighbor you're talking with Well, you know when you say When you say I want my Student to feel like they belong at school What do you mean by that and can you can you talk about that some more and So that depth of conversation and relationship building. I think is really valuable It can be Then a little bit difficult to take the information we get from those conversations and Sort it into some sort of uniform Um Information that we can share and use as we then ultimately say to the school board Here's what your community vision. Here's what the community cares most about in their vision Not saying that we don't do that. I'm just pointing out that that these are these are complicated It is too long. There's no question about it Uh Oh, so so back to the model of how we think this might happen If we don't go for the home run and if we Do a launch of a base hit and we just try to get people engaged in this process The implication is that they will that will then reengage them and we'll either ask them more questions more deeply or we'll follow up with a call Or there are other or they will attend a public gathering and we can get more information that way Um, I hope that is true It may be true that we get a lot of responses to a short survey And then we get fewer responses to phone calls and conversations and then fewer people who show up with a community gathering so that so my fear is that If we don't go for a version of the home run we miss out Because everybody's just gathered on first base and we never learn about whatever we will to learn that third base Um Again, that's not killing that killing that observation. Just pointing out why I find it to be intentioned with some of the things that I want out of this process um Since it is too long, I think we can all agree on that except for uh, joe joe and I joe and I love how long this is um You know, then the question is what do we cut and it so I guess I I should be doing a dance here because I Don't think I heard anybody say Nathan you really missed this major area. We didn't ask about this area. So maybe Mel's picking up her phone Go ahead now I would not say that my brain was able to Even identified gaps Because of the Of the zoomed outedness Okay, it it um, so and and I don't know if other if other people had that experience, but it almost seemed like it was a It was a survey about philosophy Which I could talk about all day. I love that stuff when I have bandwear um, but in terms of Concrete information that we want from the people I wasn't even like I I wasn't even I forgot that was my job to think about because it was a totally different survey If that makes sense It does to some extent. I think that the I want to uh, I want to come back to the your comment about concrete information from people um and your comment about philosophy so because this process is theoretically about shared vision for the district And then ideally also about values that are shared and and that both of those things will Support the board as they do planning and decision-making and then Cascade down to support the administration and the education professionals I think this is Pretty blue sky and I you know the um, joe pointed out Under section 22 l through r where I talk about you know science technology math and arts and history and literature I left that in there as a as an example of What I would call more concrete And I think that I left it in there partly as a caution because they As I mentioned the first meeting one of the things we need to be careful about is We are listening for what's division around the district And if the vision is um For graduates to be prepared to be global citizens for example We may want to make that a little bit more specific But once we hand it off to the board And the board choose on it and they hand it off to the administration whether we offer visual arts or History or latin Is a decision that's largely made by the administration And so that's why and I'm not I'm not trying to Dismiss your comment now, but I I just want to I'm going to keep calling out that that balance of restrictions Um, I see sacred and I see Tina. Give me. Can you guys hold those thoughts for half a second more? Um just the uh Nick's comment about designing from the margins and the comments that again about sort of everyday language Um I'm inclined to very strongly agree with you and and make it Much more straightforward and accessible. I really like the way you presented that nick in terms of if this is uh If this is easy for the folks who are least likely to engage with it, then it will be easy for everyone um and then if there's a If there's loss in that kind of Simplification of language Then we need to figure out a way to deal with that um, I see sacred and Tina than Amanda um And it is 7 30 sacred go I think if if we can um Get a little bit more clarity or specifics around Or even maybe some examples around How the board will use this vision? That might help so So a vision can be a lot of things a vision can be a vision statement. That's a couple of sentences long Or it can be you know, it can be different things it it this This vision and what we've what we've seen so far Includes You know a lot of stuff including stuff around facilities, you know the the the project that I worked on that was a statewide vision for vermont students was only about the students. This is what we want students to you know to For our graduates to sort of have these characteristics. That's very different than Uh a bigger bigger vision that also includes facilities that also includes, you know this other stuff So, you know my comment at the first meeting about the time frame um I guess that's that's even more relevant Around this because you know what? When we're talking about vision, what are we talking about? We're talking about what are we talking about students our vision for students? What our students look like when they graduate from from Montpelier high school? Are we talking are we? You know if it is this bigger vision that includes everything that includes facilities Clues what we want our educators to look like or you know all this stuff That's a different that's a different ball game. You know coming back to that that analogy and and It's just different and it's going to take a different different way of thinking Which is fine, but you know So I think clarity around that For us might be helpful in And in thinking you know because we have to know what you have to know what the end goal is What are we trying to produce and I think we're not clear about that right now? So once we know what we're trying to produce That will help the board and I think also obviously be a benefit to the community because the community will be able to See that vision Then we can really start Working backwards from that and what needs to happen to get the right questions to ask the right processes And and the right groups, you know, how we're going to do that I will circle back to some of that, but I want to hear from Tina and then I wonder Well to Expand on that I guess I'd say Nathan the reason you haven't heard from anybody about what you left out was because you didn't leave out a thing And you cannot ask people About all of these questions You have to say to yourself What's the most important thing and that's part of what the secret is saying? Let's figure out. What is it? We really want to know and condense those into a few questions That's number one number two is you don't need a glossary As hard as this is you need to explain each of these things you're asking so that no glossary is needed so if The word sounds too educational jargony then we have to find the word that doesn't require an explanation It's just that somebody will understand it And no glossary is next Necessary those are my two Amira I see you after Amanda And Tina thank you that This survey is one of the all the instruments and so that you want to have people that Will use this But not necessarily all the people are going to fill out this survey, right? So I think designing a survey We will also still have the opportunities to have those focus groups of small visits Those one and once if we want to so I think that it's not the survey is not the end goal um, and I just wanted to share I think one of the things that We can think about how to do this, but I just had my son is Neurology appointments in Boston metal cop Boston Children's Hospital and they sent me this huge survey um, but one of the questions that I was very impressed with was How did I learn as a parent? How would they give me this information that they wanted to give me? uh, and so they had and I took a picture like observation listening and one-on-one video illustration diagram receive information at More than one thing reading materials hands-on group Demonstration Verbal and other and that was so helpful for me And then the doctors took that and like were able to do all the things that I needed to be able to understand What has happened with my son? so I think when I was thinking of this survey was the and the question that you were asking at the beginning I was like, yeah, we need to and I don't know how that looks like is it pre-survey? We're like, hey, we're about to do a community survey. Tell us how you learn And tell us how you like to engage in this piece That could lead to some of this that we need to you know, like to support. So those were my big things to add I love it and I desperately would like you to send me that photograph of the uh Of the you know, how do how do you best engage? How do you best learn? Thank you? Uh, I see Amira then mel and then susie Go ahead I agree with like cigarette. I feel like the um way that the survey is now It's almost like our eyes are bigger than our stomachs I was kind of like a thing where We just want to get to the point and we want to you know Have everything all in place, but I feel like for Somebody it could be very overwhelming and unsure of what I guess yeah, like a really big Go Waste to like smaller steps people um, so I feel like that could be a little Trouble did ask people all these questions, but we kind of broke it up to a stage where it wasn't So Um, as well as maybe like the option to also have an open conversation of it Like not just the survey as our one mode of communication with them Uh, Amira, thank you. I got I think most of that. I'm just going to read what I wrote and Please fill in where I missed because I uh to me that your sound was breaking up Um, our eyes are bigger than our stomachs, which I love If we want it seems like we want to have everything in one place, but it might be overwhelming um And it might not be clear The core thing that we're asking And then you think it'd be better if we broke it into stages or into sizes that are not so overwhelming Is that what I heard accurately? Amira did I do justice to what you said? Okay. I see you in the text saying yes. Thank you very much um Next up I have mel and then susie amanda. Is that a new hand or the same hand? Okay, you're good. Mel go ahead So so I I find myself wondering Is it enough it do is there an option to rather than think about Or in addition to thinking about you know, first pass second pass, you know catching people in the different phases Could we offer Multiple ways of giving input all at once So you have the person and you say we have an opportunity here to Seek community input about what we want school to look like um, we offer You know, uh, and you list the five ways that you can participate as a community member You know your survey your phone call your focus group your text box your live instant messaging like whatever it is Your art, you know, we have these seven ways you can participate Let us know which one you want to do Because my concern and this was my experience um with the first round of s or three community um, uh engagement was that It's like when you have the experience of saying like, ah this it's not for me You don't get me again for the subsequent thing because I've already decided that this is not for me I mean, I like made myself do it But like, you know, like it was it was hard because the very first thing was like a lot of content heavy like You know, just just um a lot of stuff that didn't work for my brain Um, and it was like by you know, like thank goodness The next one was a focus group because I could you know, I could do that one But initially it was like, well this project I don't think I can touch this project and I'm concerned that that's the experience of a lot of people that I know in the community Thank you. I just want to note. I think I see in order Caitlyn then Libby then Dottie. Is that accurate? Okay, great. Oh and Susie. Sorry Susie first um Mel just because I'm not responding right away doesn't mean I have not heard you Susie go ahead um I sort of think like a layered approach is a good idea and like like a pre-survey Uh, like advertisement of who we are and what we're doing so that people can like have a minute to process Even how they can participate in it like I know for me, of course I think about what I want for my children and what is best for them and what is best for my community but like could I just like Talk about it right now and write everything down right now and know all the words right now Maybe not and I think a lot of people maybe their brains just aren't like warmed up for that yet So and like how Mel said to give people options of like these are the things we're going to be doing So that people feel like they can be ready to participate And that sort of idea of like sleeping on it and coming up with a really Actually, what really is important to me because not everybody knows that just you know like that So I think maybe doing a pre You know survey Advertisement of who we are and what we're doing because I'm sure most people don't even know that this committee exists at this point And so if you just get some email coming in saying oh, this is this new committee, you know People might not be actually ready to engage in that Um, Susie. Thank you. I just want to pause and uh, thank america. Joe and merrick. I see your hands. I've got you on my list um, I want to point out that we've heard in this sort of Second popcorn round we've heard from amira and we've heard from merrick or we're about to hear from merrick But it's been a decent amount of adult voices and i'm watching that Libby I would just offer out The the thought exchange as a first go Because you can put survey questions in around demographics and you can also put survey questions in around How would you like to engage further? Um, I think it can hit a lot of things and then your thought exchange question can be What's the thing you value most about your about your education or your child's education? And then from there the team can take the themes, you know And synthesize the themes that come out of that pretty easily so that we can create questions And whatever round two might be so I was just I was just thinking that We may get more bang for our buck for from a broad thought exchange that also a asked very specific survey questions That's getting at what some people are saying here um, and then Using that information to drive the next steps And it's just a thought um because it's my new favorite tool as those close to the school district really know But we do have that at our backing call and it might give us it might it might be a better a different jumping off point than a than a straightforward survey Thank you for that. Um Just uh Kailin you're up and then doddy then joe then maryk and then kail. Is that right kail? Yes so, um Go ahead Yeah, I think what susie was saying. I think susie just made a really good point. Um that a lot of people don't even know that we exist and um would Love to know that we exist. So I do feel like we're getting ahead of ourselves. I'm just worried about I don't I I'm worried that we're spending all of this time on specifics with this survey before people even know that we're here and that I mean cigarettes still wanting clarification on exactly what our goal is and I think probably a lot of us are so um, I guess I'm just worried about The order in which we're doing things a little bit Kailin, thank you. I'm gonna I want to pause um I it's good you brought us back to cigarettes. I'm coming about clarifying the goal and One of the ways that I prepared myself for this um Even before proposing to the to the district that I do this work and and as I've designed this Is to look at models of other, you know vision statements from other districts You know where I could find it other models of community engagement around this, you know values or or vision and what I'll try to do within the next few days is Gather a bunch of links to some of the ones that I found Excellent and some of the ones that I found awful and in a few in between And I also want to circle back if we have time tonight And hear from the two board members who are on the call ret and amanda Um to see what their response is to how might the board use this The information that we produce because I think those are um, you know first from sacred and then from kaitlyn Those are really good observations Okay, sorry for that pause Dottie then joe then merrick then kail and we have 15 minutes left Which means we are going to not get to some of the things but that's this is being a really fruitful conversation. Go Joe Okay, well, I have been listening to people Trying to simplify and use words that everybody can understand And one of the things that occurs to me is What if we created a? visual Like a pie with pie slices and just wrote single words or a topic On each one of them And as we met with a person, I think the people who said we need to communicate verbally would have an edge And say we'd like to talk to you about these any of these that interest you So that's my you know idea of getting the conversation off the ground is having You know some large visual With the topics we want to discover Who is interested or how many people are interested in those topics as the first stage? And then we could elaborate in another Level later on Daddy, thank you Joe you're up Two quick things. The first is I I can't believe I'm going to be defending educational jargon I mean, I'm just surprised as I say that out loud, but Just as a teacher that those jargony terms team They exist to create space for teachers to emphasize things that were undervalued so social emotional learning I agreed kind of like a jargony term But now we have spaces teachers to really Delineate the specific ways we care about students mental health to use one example So I think there's a balance there the extent that we can make it less jargony. I'm on board I can be super helpful of that But also know that like By by getting rid of a term Maybe we're kind of like pushing something out that was hard fought to get in And the second thing is I think it'd be cool to have students and teachers Provide like vision statements of their own as like exemplars or templates for people to see because I think it could be Useful if you're filling out a survey and they say vision And then it's sort of like here are five students and their vision for Excellence in education or here are five teachers and their vision just throwing those two ideas out there. Thank you Thank you very much Merrick and kale hang on one second Um I think that I meant to say earlier that I find really interesting about this kind of process is that while we are designing a process to engage with the public and listen and taking information It is not a one-way street in that there is an education component to What we're doing every time one of us gets into a conversation with someone else anytime we put out a survey We are both telegraphing sort of The values that are implicit in how we designed the survey and which is exactly what we're discussing right now and I love it We are also, you know in the case of social emotional learning. We may be introducing or Elaborating on a concept that is new or relatively new to somebody on the other side of the conversation and then Just to quickly address the point about do people know that we exist as in the vision and committee The first answer is no not very much and so far I have not been pushing that because In this again, maybe a personality component or flaw I want us to be sort of ready to with our process Before we announce to the world like hey, we're here. We're gathering this information. We really want your input Because to me there is a there's a lot of value to to some order and organization in process Happy to take I mean I'm hearing some Maybe tension or concerns around that approach. So I'm happy to hear more of those. All right. I'm going to be quiet now Merrick, you're up and then kill your next. Thank you very much Alrighty well first I really agree with what mel and others have said and I think that we should employ and give people many different Like options to contribute to this visioning process Um, I also want to build off Susie I think we should make it a priority to Advertise our intentions throughout our community and while you just said that we should have like a clear focus first I think that focus will develop with community like input And I think we should should specifically focus this input in our schools since this is like where we are trying to impact And change things and I think that each student member could help Uh could certainly help spread the word in this regard. Uh, that's all That's it Excellent. Thank you Okay, I'll go ahead I have the same idea. Um I we keep talking about our goals and the gist that I always got The beginning of all of this was our goals would be um You know come to us once we learned what the community wanted and maybe that's not What this is about but that's kind of what I got. Um but I also agreed with both Merrick and Joe about the whole idea that like Seeing an example of something Is so useful and in any facet of Out even outside of education, but I think seeing an example and being able to work from that is so needed Especially something that's so like open-ended Um, so I agree with that but then my final thing was I learned about this because a teacher told me but I don't really know how was this brought up I heard it was like on front porch forum or something else like how was this brought up to other people and Are those means of being brought up on front porch forum or I don't know Talks with like, um adults. Is that the way that we want to Send this survey out or our message out and maybe that's another thing we should think about is how and where do we Yeah, spread the word yeah, thank you the um You point to the one of the things on that we're probably not going to get to tonight is the distribution strategies Or in more everyday language, how are we going to get this out? Uh, and I I hope that they are multi-channel and that we each use as many tools as we have at our disposal To address that so I appreciate that comment. I want to um Um Were you going to ask board members what their thought was I I will in just a second Because it's it's a segue from this comment We're hearing You know, it's not clear what our it's not clear To some of us how the board might use this or how the district might use this Uh, therefore it's hard to know how to design it And then I just heard Kale say I thought that our goals and the and you know would come to us once we have community input And I just want to point out all those things are true and relevant Our role is to make some initial Decisions about what we're asking so that was at the last meeting when I introduced the idea of the scope of inquiry That was me saying Here are the areas I think we need to explore And facilities is one of those right? We can make this a lot shorter by cutting the facilities questions That would ignore the fact that there's a community discussion happening about what's the what's the role for rocksbury village school? For example, so if the district is okay to do without that information we can Not include a whole section of this survey, but that's an example, right? So the way I said This is a two-way street What we how we design this process and how we design these questions what we're asking Telegraphs to the people on the receiving end or giving us input What we're thinking about and what we're asking about and so We we have to make some just some decisions about what we care to ask about and what's what are the highest priorities? That's our job We don't have a cigarette will happily point out. We don't have enough time for this to be a more iterative process where we do You know sort of a number of stages and we take a lot of time it has it By the effect of the of the sort of this project in this contract it has to be somewhat compressed So that's also partly for example That's that's a reason that you are seeing a survey that I drafted And we're all responding to it as opposed to the process being a little bit more organic to to generate that altogether That's an attempt on my part to compress this the sort of Design the instrument process to make that quicker, okay I see you sacred, but I might ask you to hold I do want to hear ret and amanda respond to the question of how do you imagine That the board will use this information And then I want to reserve a few minutes for a reflection on sort of how this is all going How did this meeting go are the things you wish to be better aside from tina wishing me to get materials to sooner Um amanda or ret please respond Do you mind if I go ahead? Well, if there are going to be changes to what is offered what is offered from the schools Or to staffing I think we want to know What direction does the community want us to go in? so that's um That's basically what I think The values of the community are going to help us put resources in one place and not in another place essentially Going back to how this happens um I I think That there's a lot of you know if we're asking for something from people who don't have a lot of bandwidth I think it's important that we offer something also like How are things going for you and just give people a chance to vent because as a representative of This committee the district You know I want to I want to offer Some kind of support even if it's just in people's ability to vent um And I hope that everyone that that through that process We can gather information and then we worry about a lot of this really sort of detailed survey stuff sort After the fact I think if we can give somebody a good interaction with one of us It's going to encourage them to go further further with You know more detailed whether it's through the thought exchange, which is a great tool for some people or a survey or a A drawing or a video or any way that we can come up with People having an opportunity to share with us. I think the first thing we need to do is say We care about you. How are you doing? um and and then We worry about all these details kind of after the fact is sort of how i'm thinking about this I can add a little bit. I think uh You know the school board sets the vision for the district long term So right now we need those tools. I know that the administration Kind of has a process and right now the board is in the process of creating that so A lot has happened in the last couple of years. We had um The school vision committee which gave a lot of feedback about a set of questions around how the community was moving A lot of changes were made out based on that That kind of trickle down to what the budget reflected this year There's an S or three funding that is coming in line. We had a series of focus group asking people What they were thinking about that trickles down in and and I know that mail put this on the budget And all of those are interrelations, but at the end of the day It is the school board that makes decisions in two areas one is policy and one is the budget decision So right now we don't have an actual tool to say this is what the community wants outside of what has happened From I've been here two years. So for these past two years Maybe before but it's really not informing the way that we make decisions And I think this vision and process is going to help us Move that process for there. I know that there's a lot that believe that we need we our role is the community input Right, like we are the bridge between what the administration is doing and what the Community is feeling and and we are kind of look at that working with levy Around how that happens and also this vision process can create a model of accountability to to say, okay This is what is needed from the community. This is what is needed Where do we see that and that we can project back to you and to the community that's asking the question and say You know, you're taking care of and these are the ways that you are being taken care of This is the way that we're moving that vision process So this is a really important part because this is creating a long term Vision of where we want to be and I know this process maybe was done before and it has been done because We change administrations. We change a school board But this is an attempt to not have this being disjointed But really that we can work with levy to make that practice really Routed into the community needs And I believe you will like to add something to that Then I think you nailed it amanda right there. It's it's you know, you have changed an administration and you have Changed in pieces. I know I know just based on my experience from the last four years that When you get granular you'll have a group of people saying you should do nothing but outdoor education That's what this community values and you'll have another group that says you should do nothing but restorative practices And trauma-based informed instruction and that's what this community values And you get another group that says you need to get my kid prepared for harvard and that's it And you have another group that says mental health like the the difference in in value is pretty big so When you get granular So I guess my hope would be what's the broad umbrella? To guide both the school board in the direction that the school board provides the administration and Making decisions for our kids. There are most prized commodities. So Um So, yeah, I think when when we first started talking about this visioning piece It's it's it's really getting those broad generalized values for the community. So it's not me making it up as I go or Um, or the board making it up as they go But we have something to base off of and I think Nathan to your point earlier about infrastructure. It's a really good example, right? um, is that Once those broad generalized values are named Then when questions come up about school buildings and use of school buildings because it's not just rocksbury. It's mainstream middle school as well um, it's it's lots of I mean, I hear lots of things about our buildings and very old buildings and uh, So it's it's here are values. Here's the education we want for our kids Can we accomplish that in the buildings that we have? You know, that's the question for the for the board to really tackle with the community But we can't answer that question until we have values stated Um, mel, I see your hand. Um, sigrid, I appreciate you putting what you just put in the chat and I'll read it in a second kale, is that an old hand or A new hand old hand old hand. Okay. Um Mel, I don't I'm not trying to run you over here the Sigrid your point about the time frame for this process is great Um, I will say that I am open to changing the time frame And I will touch base with the board offline not entirely offline but offline about that So if we stick with the existing timeline, my response is We're going to do the best we can and we're going to work really hard at this if we extend the timeline There are benefits to that. There are some losses probably in the sense that Do we have the board's attention when they have the capacity to receive the information and act on it? That's one of the risks Mel go ahead and then we need to close this I figured out what my deal was with the zoomed out. It's that some brains can't think in Philosophical categories, I think it's an executive functioning difference The the that that that like going from zoom in to zoom out Only some brains do that and so, you know with with with I run a non-profit So of course we start with value statement vision mission all the things that was really hard for some people and now i'm connecting those dots I think that's what's going to be hard to engage people in a survey like this As opposed to like more of a needs assessment model Which i'm not like i'm not i'm not suggesting that we change the scope of a vision statement I'm just saying like it some brains are able to when you when you like if you ask somebody What's going well about school? Well, you are capturing their values because they wouldn't have said something was going well unless they valued it And when you ask someone what they wish were different They come up with really interesting things because that's also telling you information about their values Which inform a vision But it's it's not using the vision type words that some brains use through that lens and some brains don't That's a great point I think again This is one tool and it's and we can use multiple tools and we can be good listeners and bring that information back to this group um I am caught between wishing to observe the Sort of advertised timing of this and whatever needs are pulling at you all I think I just saw an interloper in the background of katlyn's screen and um I would like to spend a couple minutes if people have time Any reflections you have on how this conversation went this evening on how this process is going for you all And anything you'd like to see better or differently You're also welcome to send that to me in writing or call me But I looked like I see kale's hand. I thought kaelin was maybe going to say something Go for it kael you're up and then one little little thing is is there a We haven't talked about later dates for a thing. I don't think so. Maybe i'm wrong But or also venue in which these are being held. I didn't know if that is Something that is on your mind probably is that's all Okay Yes, it is we didn't get to it tonight and uh it's a My my first approach is let's try to use the school facilities because we want to put the schools at the center of this discussion But we can expand on that Go america All right, so I know this has kind of been like the point of the last two meetings But as you stated like we only have a limited number of meetings in general So I was just thinking that it's probably important that we really focus on you know Getting to work on defining what our goals are and like starting at least some options in regards to either surveys or other other things that we're talking about like really just Starting something I would say Thank you Tina I I actually think that you need to try to stick to the timeline because the school board needs this information In order to proceed on and so if you're going to stick to the timeline Joe the old teacher in me says give us some homework So you can't quite accomplish everything with this number of people here So maybe it's figure out a way that we need to respond in between to quicken the process That has been on my mind and I think that suggestion, especially the homework one Um Amanda I will just add that If the board can have at least some thing You know by the time we're supposed to be done The work can continue like I said, I think we see this as an ongoing process That you know, we can think about You know other things later But that we can try to stick with something so that the board has something to work with because we do need to do our Work plan to for the next year Um, like we need some of this information. So I think extending things sometimes, you know Then it just will have sometimes best results sometimes the same result Uh, so at least to try to get there and and we can evaluate next month or so and see where we're going and you know There's always flexibility. It's it's not tight But we do like Tina says it's important to have something that we can work with Thank you very much. Joe. I see your hand. I want to give this about five more minutes. And then I We need to stop Go ahead. Joe want to appreciate a process point, Nathan Then the beginning you picked an order and we got to hear from everybody at least ones I think that's super helpful to open a meeting. So thank you Any other thoughts on how this is going? Amita putting in our own And If we didn't reach our agenda I feel like we did a really good job of getting some Round points and like clarifying questions Thank you very much Okay, I don't see other hands. So I'm going to adjourn this meeting and I will send Um Because of our open meeting process. This is a little bit tricky. Um, I did do some homework To individual people in the interring intervening time between last meeting and this meeting And I'll do more of that now. We are really going to need to resolve on Some of these devices By the end of our next meeting so that we can get off the ground Thank you all very much for your time. Uh, I'm I'm just I'm thrilled with the contributions we've had It's given me a ton to think about and please Contact me in any way if you have other thoughts or other nudges. Thanks again