 Hello and welcome to NewsClick. I'm Poranjoy Gohar Thakurtha and with me here in the studio I have MG Devasahayam. He's a retired civil servant who subsequently worked in both the private sector and the public sector and is now a social activist. He lives in Nagarkoil in Tamil Nadu which is not far from Tutikudi or Tutikorin where we had a terrible incident. 13 people were killed in police firing at the Sterlite Copper Smelting Plant. These were people who were protesting against the expansion of that plant. Thank you very much Mr. Devasahayam for giving us the time. The decision of the Tamil Nadu government on the 28th of May to shut down the Copper Smelting Plant of the Vedanta Stroke Sterlite Group is supposed to be highly flawed and is expected to be overturned by a court of law very soon. Why is this perception correct? It's absolutely true. We have also already pointed it out to the government that it was a farce that was enacted. All that has been done is the Secretary Environment has mentioned Article 48A which enjoins under the Directive Principles of State Policy the state government should protect environment. He just mentioned that. He should have given a written order in detail why they are invoking Article 48A. There is no mention at all. Then he invokes Section 18 of the Water Act and endorses a decision given by the Pollution Control Board earlier not to renew their license and ask them to close down. It's a very tenacious order. It's not a speaking order. For such a serious matter closing down a huge manufacturing unit, polluting unit in which they had tremendous amount of evidence, expert opinion, tests, various other things there has to be a speaking order. It must be done on the Environmental Protection Act after giving them an opportunity and writing a speaking order only then they will sustain. Now this they can go to the court. Suppose this order is overturned by a court of law. Then what happens after that? See, normally they will go to high court. If it overturned they will go through this process of appeal. But eventually it will go to the Supreme Court and Supreme Court throws it down. They will have to reopen it. There is no other way. So you expect that to happen sooner or later? It may happen. Already the efforts have started. Already propaganda has started. Media has started writing articles. After articles about the economy, development. Let's step back a little bit. The copper smelting plant at Tutikori or Tutikorin was started in 1996. 14 years later the Madras High Court ordered that it be shut down because it was violating various laws pertaining to protect the protection of the environment. In April 2013, that is three years after the Madras High Court ordered it shut, the Supreme Court set aside the ruling of the High Court and at the same time said that the company management should pay a fine of 100 crore rupees for polluting the environment. Then what happened? In March of 2018, the current year, there was a leak of gas from that same plant, toxic gas as a result of which the Tamil Nadu Pollution Control Bowl ordered it shut. But this decision too was overruled by the National Green Tribunal. So we have been seeing how this entire issue has been going back and forth in different courts of law. The reason is the executive authorities, that means Tamil Nadu Pollution Control Board, have not followed the correct procedure. Whenever you are passing an order on the Environmental Protection Act or the rules made thereof, Pollution Control Board is a creator of the Environmental Protection Act. They have to follow the procedure and write a speaking order. These patchwork orders normally courts just throw it out. That is what is happening in this case. NGT also said if there are violations, ask them to rectify the violation. So that did not hold good. But the problem in Tutukudi started because of the expansion plan. That is where this comes. I will talk about that a minute. Now let's talk a little bit before we come to the expansion. The reason why there was agitation among the local people, the people who have been living in roughly a five kilometer radius of that plant, they have been complaining for years about the atmosphere being polluted, about the groundwater being polluted. Every other household in that area is supposed to have a cancer patient. And many are suffering from all kinds of ailments which have been recorded and documented. Now, from February of this year, 2018, you had literally tens of thousands of people who had been at that juncture peacefully protesting against the expansion of that smelter. But after a hundred days, more than three months of agitation, the whole thing blew up. And the 13 people lost their lives. And we've seen videos and television recordings showing that the policemen were aiming to kill. I mean, why was this situation allowed to escalate to this extent? Before answering this question, I will tell something much more fundamental. People were not protesting. They were only seeking their constitutional rights. They were demanding their right to life, healthy life, that is, which is their fundamental right. They were seeking the Direction 48A, Direct Reference of State Policy. It is the responsibility of the state to protect the environment and health of the people. And there is a fundamental duty, Article 51A. The people were only seeking the implementation of the constitutional scheme of things. I will not call it protesting because in a country, we are a democratic country. We are citizens, not subjects. And what they say, government has to do. Now, the whole thing has been misunderstood by the people branding them as protesters, branding them as extremists, branding them as double-makers. In fact, it was the Chief Minister of Tamil Nadu, Arapati K. Palaniswamy, who described them as anti-social elements. They are saying they are being incited. They are being incited by representatives of non-government organizations. The same Chief Minister who subsequently says, I don't know, he is closing down, he is passed the order to close down the plan because he is respecting public sentiments. Nobody incited anybody. I had been to Tutukkarin twice. One was a small group in my personal capacity, went around most of the places, met the victims. Four families I went and these families are living near poverty, absolutely abject poverty, small fishermen. They are living in small ghetto type of situation. You call them anti-women. Three of them were women and they had gone to this rally with their children, with their young daughters, young sons and you call them anti-socialists. It's only a typical way of, foolish way of talking. After doing this damage, after resorting to this massacre, I would call it a kind of terrorist act. This is an act of state terrorism. Individual is not a terrorist at all. After that Chief Minister has to say something. I mean you think he acted out of a sense of desperation. He has no knowledge, he has no control. See the entire thing my reading is as a former administrator after interacting. Chief Minister had no role to play. Even the decision collector had no role to play. There was order from Delhi. My information is orders were from Delhi. This is, you are making a very serious allegation. Yes. Otherwise. You do have any evidence to indicate that what kind of order could have come from Delhi. No, the question is I'll tell you what happened. Now Sterlite is a huge multinational organization. It's one of the biggest mining conglomerates in the world. Top most, one of the top five in the world by Danta group. And leave alone. I'm not talking about the present government. Mr. P. Chidambaram was a non-equitative director of this company till the day he took over as finance minister in 2004. I know and thereafter he resigned. Yes, the previous day he was drawing thousands of dollars per month and his wife Nalini is the corporate counsel. I am saying that what led to this police firing. We have seen videos where a policeman is supposed to be saying at least one must die. How did this happen? We have seen pictures of the police standing on top of the bus taking aim. I'm asking you, after all, law and order is a state subject. Irrespective of the clout that Mr. Anil Agarwal who heads the Sterlite group has in Delhi, this was something that happened at the level of the state, at the state government. True, that is what is being inquired into. We have formed a public inquest. I am part of that. I will not be able to say that exactly who gave the orders. We'll come to that. But I'll just briefly narrate the actually what happened. See, 22nd May was supposed to be the 100th day and they were expecting a large gathering to come and, you know, collector's office. All they wanted was to go to the collector who represents the authority of the state and give him a representation to close down the Sterlite. And in front of the collector is a huge open area. Lacks of people can assemble. There will be no problem at all. They could have assembled in peace and gone without any problem. My information is that the district administration was not interested in imposing section 144. 144 was not required because 144 is a very dangerous section. It deprives the Fundamental Right, Article 19, the Right to Assembly. Article 21, Liberty is suspended, invokes criminal sort of sections against the people, peace-loving people, walking on the road. So imposing section 144 is normally done only at very extreme situations. There was no such extreme situation. 99 days, peaceful. But Sterlite authorities asked the collector, district magistrate, to impose 144. He doesn't do that. Till 18th, he did not do that. You are saying the local management of the Sterlite copper smelting unit. Directly asking the district collector to impose 144. How can they ask him? They cannot. They cannot ask. I mean, anybody can say anything, but it's a decision that the district collector, stroke district magistrate has to take. Absolutely right. 100%. If anybody, he can, the home minister or the home secretary. No, no, they cannot. Even home minister, home secretary, Prime Minister cannot intervene. 144 is exclusive jurisdiction of the district magistrate. I have been district magistrate myself. I have imposed 144. So you are saying it was entirely his... Yes. And there's no appeal also. There's no appeal. Only High Court can go for a review. See, a private party can ask for protection, ask for security, but can't ask for section 144 depriving the other people of liberty. Okay. Now, he doesn't impose it. Then they go to the High Court. Sterling gets an order from the High Court on the 18th evening, directing the collector to impose section 144, which is a very wrong thing to do. What may the High Court can give such an order? Cannot. Cannot. So you are questioning the decision of the Sterlite management to move to first speak to the district collector. Yes. To, you are saying they move the High Court. You are saying it is not even within the jurisdiction of the High Court to give such an order? Yes. Unfortunately, one particular judge entertained it and passes a very nasty order. Has that order been challenged? No. It reaches the collector only on the 19th. Just two days before. Collector goes into panic. That's what I'm saying. Was there a pre-planned strategy? So you are raising some very, very important questions. Yes. Let me look at it from the perspective of the company's management. Right or wrong, we can discuss it. What they're saying, this is India's biggest copper smelting plant. And it is producing, some people say one-third, some people say 40% say around one-third of all the copper that is utilized in this country. Now, copper has a variety of uses so a whole lot of downstream industries are involved and they're saying that the plan was to double the capacity from 400,000 tonnes a year at present. So it would become 800,000 tonnes and then it would become one of Asia's largest and not just Asia's largest, one of the world's largest single-location copper smelter. Now they're saying the closure of this unit has resulted in prices going up, it has disrupted the economy. What are your views? See, all these arguments they may have their own merits. I don't want to go into that at all because here that is not the issue. With it overruled people's fundamental right to live with clean air and portable, drinkable water. Without this man cannot exist. Copper is only a raw material for industries, production. But you are talking about clean air and water without which man cannot survive. So you think all these other issues are overruled? This is number one. That is why it is built into the constitution to serve the produce copper. Let me come to a different issue. What we know is that across the world and also in India, there is a nexus between business and politics. As we've already discussed, the Vedanta group is one of the world's biggest mining conglomerates among the top five. Now, so far they have not had a very good record. They've had pretty poor record in terms of dealing with those who have opposed their project. Whether it be for acquisition of land, whether it be for some other reason, whether it be in Orissa or Goa or Chattisgarh or Rajasthan, et cetera, and even outside India in Zambia as well. So there has been opposition from the group's projects. And the group invariably have said, these are troublemakers, these have been instigated by our rivals, these have been instigated by these two gooding NGOs. What do you have to say about the Vedanta group's track record in this regard? Vedanta group has got a very bad track record. Sterlite, everyone knows about it. They have been violating all kinds of rules and regulations. They have been producing false documents. Recently, the Madurai Hakkot, this time two banks, these judges are not there, two other judges completely asked them to close down. Six months, they have ordered for a complete re-processing the whole thing, public consultation, and they have not been asked, they have all been stopped, the expansion work stands been stopped. The Hakkot has ordered them on the ground. One Fatima Babu, the local activist, she had gone to the court. The main ground was they have produced false documents. They say they are constructing one particular land, whereas they were constructing somewhere else. So a lot of, you know, hanky-panky they do. Even otherwise, I also have another knowledge that, you know, a couple of some years ago, they wanted to send the army to the Dantakarniya area, the forest area, tribal area, where they had set up... That's in Orissa. Orissa and the neighboring areas, where they had taken lakhs of acres for these mining, what mining they have, that bauxite mining and other things, and they were planning to send the army. You are aware that in March 2014, the Delhi High Court had ruled that a trust, which had been set up by the group, had illegally donated funds to both the BJP and the Congress. Now this, why was it illegal? Because a registered political party in India cannot receive funds from a foreign source. But subsequently, Mr. Arun Jaitly, as finance minister, he retrospectively amended the Foreign Contribution Regulation Act. So now, by changing the definition of what is a foreign entity, these donations have been legalized. We also know that Mr. Anil Agarwal and the Vedanta group is close to the powers that be. I mean, I know, correct me if I'm wrong, when Prime Minister Narendra Modi visited London in 2015 and in April 2018, the Vedanta group took out full-page advertisements, welcoming him. There have been various occasions when events have been sponsored by the Vedanta group. In fact, in June 2014, just after Mr. Modi became the Prime Minister of India, Mr. Anil Agarwal publicly had said that the entire world was looking forward to Mr. Modi's term as Prime Minister. Now that's not a big deal. All industrialists, all praise, whoever's in power. Is there anything unusual or special about the relationship that the Vedanta group has with those who are in power, the political leadership? Vedanta is more than that. They have influence with the powers, both BJP Party and, of course, Congress. All the political spectrum, senior bureaucratic spectrum, they have close relationship. More than that, they have tremendous influence on the international. WTO, I'm told, I have my information, that's what I'm telling you. They have information about, they have this, they are part of a cartel. And it's also that Switzerland where that annual meeting takes place. Davos is a very important figure in Davos. They got international influence and, of course, naturally, political influence in the country. He started his career as a metal scrap trader in Bihar. Yeah, true. Today he's one of the richest men. Yeah, most of the top, even Ambani started as a very humble man. Yes, they have reason. We have no problem. Businessmen rising to the top of there. But then doing this kind of things, they must respect the environment, the nature, and they violate that. That's why the problem is... So, I conclude my interview with you by returning to the question with which I started with. What happens from now onwards? Let's assume that the order to close down that unit by the Tamil Nadu government will be struck down by a court of law, sooner rather than later. What happens then after? See, I have been to several houses in Tutukhurin, talked to several people. I finally asked them, mostly women. Women are absolutely ferocious because they are the people who really take care of the health of their family. They say, we are not interested in compensation. We are interested in anything. So, we cannot allow Starlight to reopen again. So, our entering recommendation, the inquest is already given public inquest, that it must be dismantled. Writing on paper will not do. What needs to be done by the government if they are really serious, they must dismantle. Do you seriously expect that that whole blood is going to be dismantled? It has to be done. I am not expecting it. All the people who have their jobs directly, indirectly, thousands of people, they will all be thrown out. No. There also, the senior people only are a little worried. The lower level people are not bothered. They say, if Starlight goes, more better industries will come. You get employed. That's the feeling among the people. Because of this polluted industry, this is affecting the industrial development. But tell me seriously, you expect that to happen? Yes. Okay. If they go, Totu Guru will become a pollution-free place. All right. More industries will come. All right. Let's wait and watch. Thank you so much, Mr. Devasaham, for giving us your time. Time alone will tell whether the Tutikorin copper smelting plant of the Starlight stroke with Anta Group will be dismantled or not and what will happen. And thank you for the recent developments that have taken place. And thank you very much for being with us.