 Hey, Angel. Hey, folks. Happy Pride. Welcome to Teacakes and Tarot Conversations with Queer Futurists. I am your host, Will Wilhelm. Thank you so much for joining us for this Pride Month episode. To those of us who are here for the first time, welcome to the space between. Here, we take some time to share space with other queer folks who are pushing forward and making big changes and big splashes in our arts industry, in our theater industry. It's been really amazing to spend time with all of them over the last several months while we've been very much waiting in the wings, so to speak. And I'm so excited to bring you today's episode because I feel like we are all feeling on the precipice of feeling like we can return soonish, tangibly in the future, as opposed to mystically in the future. You know what I'm saying. So tell me where you are zooming in from. Feel free to say hello on the chat. Tell me what you're sipping on. I got a really cute lemon ginger tea. And make yourself cozy, light a candle. And what I wanna do to welcome you into the space is get a sense of those of us in the room, how we are feeling, what we are thinking about. So what we do on Teacakes and Tarot is we give you a little poll that's coming at you now and I'm gonna read it to you. So it is both Pride Month and Mercury and Retrograde. Yay, slash, dun, dun, dun. So how are we gonna balance these Pride celebrations with also balancing the needs to pay attention and be aware of the Mercury and Retrograde? We can hit pause to find, you know, both moments of gratitude and slowing down. We can clean out that closet, no pun intended. Let's make room in our physical space. We can triple check our messages and communication to make sure we're not misunderstanding anything or we can just lather up with sunscreen. This is SPF 50. I've been wearing SPF 110 for this face. So I'll give you a second to respond to that and I'm also gonna tell you a little bit about what's going on today while you do that. So as I mentioned, we share space with someone, a new guest every day, every episode and I'm gonna ask them some questions about their experiences thus far in the industry as a queer person and we're gonna leave space to sort of imagine what a brighter, bolder, queerer future might look like and how to manifest it. Then I'm gonna offer my guest a tarot reading. At Teacakes and Tarot, we do our special nerdy reading of one card from the Major Arcana. I use the Star Spinner tarot deck and there's some beautiful images in their Major Arcana and then one of Shakespeare's sonnets. So we're gonna pull that from our custom made Island Shakespeare Festival sonnet deck. Yay. All right, let's publish the results of that poll. Ooh, there's a tie between hit pause, getting some LeCroy with your white claw, very that. Sour with your chromatica, very that. And also triple checking those messages. Don't go to the wrong brunch location. I've definitely done that, gone to Lakeview when it should have stayed in Andersonville for those of you in Chicago. Anyway, okay, enough of that. Thank you so much for being here. Thank you so much to the Island Shakespeare Festival who is our producer and HowlRoundTV who disseminates this beautiful program through their channels as well. Without further ado, I want to introduce you to today's amazing, amazing guest. He is a seminal, iconic, both playwright and director, well-known for fostering a lot of beautiful new works into our American theater industry. And he is a Tony nominee for his direction of Broadway's slave play. My guest today is Robert O'Hara. Here he comes. Hey, Robert. Happy Pride. Hi there. Hi, can you hear me? Yes, I can. How are you? I'm good, I'm good. I'm so happy that you're here. Thank you. I want to start us off with like a little, you know, pride-themed moment. You have written a lot of amazing plays like Booty Candy and Barbecue and plays that we all know and you've directed a lot of amazing productions. And I'm wondering if you have any particular moments in your career that kind of stand out with pride for you and if there's anything that sort of connects those moments, like a through line in any way. You said stand out with pride. Yeah, like what are you proud of? What are you? Well, you know, I guess I'm proud of sort of like being, when I was first starting writing, I was always called risky. And so I was, I'm proud of actually saying true to my voice. And, you know, there's a quote from a ball when something about if you are prepared to tell the truth is you be prepared to be alone. So I'm proud to be unafraid to be alone, to be to have an opinion that other people don't share and to have people who do find me or find the work. So I think that's what it is. Most of the plays I've written have come from a very personal place and a very particular place of walking through life as a black queer man. And so, you know, so often you go into institutions and they try to contextualize you and put you in the frame of whatever this building is. And so it's sometimes difficult, but I'm proud of maintaining some semblance of who I am and being proud of that, I guess, yeah. Yeah, and I know that I am not alone in feeling both a very deep respect and a very deep appreciation for people like you who have been able to do that and be very steadfast in that. And I know that that makes room for going down that path once, makes it easier for the next person to follow. And something that I've sort of seen or heard you say in other interviews that I'm really interested in, especially for slave play, which we can get in more into later. So there was so much sort of press of like, oh, this is groundbreaking to have two queer black men make a play on Broadway. And I read something that you said about being like, feeling ambivalent about that, like both proud of the achievement of being the first and also like, why are we the first team? And maybe not the first, but one of the first. So I'm wondering like, how do you hold those sort of ambivalent notions like of, is there gratitude? Is there more just like disappointment? Is there both at the same time? It is, but you know, I think the reason why there aren't many or you can't name other sort of right off the tip of your tongue sort of a black queer director, right? I think it's because of racism and homophobia. And so I'm not proud of that. Like, I'm not proud of the fact that, you know, there was a problem and we sort of broken through it in this one instance. And then we want to pet ourselves on the back. I'm like, no, you created a problem. You left people out. And now that people are here, you don't get to pat yourself on the back, right? There's, I just remember there was all this hoopla around when Menom Lewis became Phantom of the Opera, the first Black Phantom of the Opera. I'm like, why did it take so long? But it's a phantom in a fucking theater. Like, I don't know. And now everyone's running around, you know, doing patting on the backs. And then it's like, no, you should actually go, what the fuck took us so long? You know, so that's my ambivalence. I can't allow some sort of like, you know, incident to determine, you know, my joy. Like, I'm proud of being the artist I am. And because you have now recognized me, doesn't make me less or more proud of that. So I think that's where the ambivalence is. And it's holding my heart to myself because at some point they're gonna go, you failed and you haven't achieved what we thought you should achieve, you know? And so I have to determine my own worth as opposed to, you know, the worth that you get from media or from outside sources. Yeah, that is a message that I feel like we've returned to. And like, we've heard from several voices so far in this series. And it's something that I'm so glad people independently bring to sort of create your own measures of success because I think especially for young artists and especially for anyone creating from their marginalized identity and wanting to create about that, not wanting to erase that in their work, you know? Our industry has so much elitism. And I'm curious sort of like what your experiences have been like, here I am directing a play on Broadway and also teaching a class at Yale. And also I do wanna get into Shakespeare and your production at the Denver Center. But how do you maintain that like, that notion of your own measures of success when you're surrounded in like the elite of the elite? If that makes sense? You know, I was telling someone the other day that it's been like, you know, you've been in a room with a bunch of people and they like, you turn to the side and there's a door that's open and they're like, oh, Robert, come through. I'm like, wait a second, there's a door over there? Like, why don't you guys tell me there's a fucking door over there? You guys have been coming and going and I've been standing here and you know me and you've been just coming and I'm like, oh, come into the room. And so it's like, now you know who I am. It's a very interesting thing because, you know, when I went to visit Broadway theater, I was like, these are old ass places, you know? Walkups, like there's no elevator here. It's just like the backstage of Broadway is not glamorous, you know? It's all a show and you think that, oh my God, I'm going to Broadway and it's gonna be whatever. And it's like, you know, there's a tenement slum back there. It's really crazy. And so you get very, a big shock if you are sort of living on sort of the cloud of what that is actually. And I think, you know, we were coming into Broadway with a play that should not be there. I mean, it's a play called Slate Play from downtown by an unknown playwright, you know? And it gives it all this madness. So like, you know, there was no sort of precedent as to why we should succeed in this area. And I think that was the precedent that we were not there to make money. We knew we were not going to be making money, but we were there to make a difference. And we were there to make a voice and shout out into the space of the world that there is relevance to different voices. So I'm most proud of that and sort of like showing me because I guess I've been doing this for so long and I've directed in so many theaters that I didn't get to direct on Broadway when I was very young. And I haven't become jaded, but I also haven't become this sort of like bright-eyed, bushy-tailed person that thinks it's like, you know, paid with gold. I know it's just another theater. And it was great to have that energy and to be a mature artist walking into that space, actually. Yeah. I really appreciate that. I feel like I'm very much like a regional theater artist and I love to see Broadway. And I feel like I've heard from a lot of my peers that they're like, you know, especially when you go through particular training programs, it's like, eyes on the prize, Broadway, Broadway, Broadway, Broadway. And then sometimes people get to that experience they're like, yes, my Broadway debut, my first show. I'm, you know, I'm covering the lead of this thing. And then they get there and it's like, this is really hard work. Oh my God, taxes take out so much of my paycheck. I like still can't afford to live on my own. And it's hard because I think like, you know, our, we're not really working in Hollywood. There aren't, there's not so much of the glitz and the glam. I feel like my glitz and glam and it seems like it is for you too is the impacts. Like not the fact that I'm like famous or fancy. But I don't, but I don't think that's how we promote Broadway. I don't think that's how we market Broadway to our country, to tourists and especially to aspiring artists. Yeah, no, it's all aspirational. It's all, you know, glitter and gold. And it's very, very hard work and it's real people, you know, and it's very regulated. And so, you know, it's a job. And that's what I think we sometimes forget that it's just another job. And in a job that you have to go through time square to get to. And that's a whole other story. It's like, you know, and I, you know, most of us who live in New York avoid time square with a passion. Like, you know, we're not like, oh, I got to go to Times Square today. Let me just go hang out in Times Square. It's usually for tourists, which is fabulous. But when you're working there, you get into this mindset that there's a lot of different people here. And you don't, I think you're in Chicago, right? There's a sort of living in a big city. You sometimes just, especially as an artist, you sort of want to pull away and find time for quietness and what have you. So, you know, coming out of your show after rehearsals and so on to Broadway, it's sort of like, it's kind of crazy actually. Because you're like, I'm here, but then you're like, it takes a lot to concentrate with all of that hype that's happening around you, you know? Especially with slave play. There was so much hype that had nothing to do with the play itself or the work we were doing that we sort of had to navigate, you know, people disliking that it was there, people hating on it, people loving on it, people thinking and making up stories about whatever. And you're sort of just want to go to work, you know? But that is all navigation. And it helps if you have a good sense of who you are and where you are. Because, you know, Broadway is built for you to fail. Most shows fail, most shows are gonna close, you know? And someone's name is up on that theater right now, you know? And so it's a different person every other month in this theater, so you don't get used to it, you know? I put your heart connected to it because it will be broken over and over. Yeah, yeah, wow. Thank you for reiterating that. I feel like we need to hear it. And we're not like, you know, like, ah, kill your dreams. But I think there's a sense of realism. Yeah, there's a sense of realism that I think we miss. And I think it, and sometimes I think it's irresponsible to like give these kids, like young people, especially that have to learn the hard way of opening their heart and having the constant disappointment, you know, being an actor, being a director, being a playwright, you hear way more nose than you're ever gonna hear a yes. And unless you can have that sort of like detachment and resilience with your work, with your job, it's not an easy, fun thing to do all the time. No, and we're really only, one of the only professionals which we tell kids to go do it. Like no one's telling the kid, can you go perform surgery on your sister? Or can you go, you know, try this murder case when you're five, but everyone's telling the kid, go be in a play, go do the song and dance, go go go to set. And so we get this idea that anyone can do it. It's just fun, it's extracurricular activity. And so it doesn't become a reality until you hear no and then no. And by the way, did I say no? Okay, then no again, you know. So then you're like, wait a second, but I was in all my student plays and I got to be the lead in all music. And then no, you know. So I think it's the way we teach kids about the arts and creativity. It does take skill, it does take experience, it does take study. It's not just because you think you can do it and you can do it, it's not that. And these people are, you know, being a professional artist, sometimes I go because they don't talk about, you know, you messed up that operation or that trial you could have done better. In the press, when every time we start to work, they tell it at four weeks that you either failed or you succeeded and they don't just tell you they don't sit you in a room and give you your, you know, your checkup, they tell everyone that you know in the papers, right? And so there's a certain level of protection that you have to have. That I don't think that we teach artists that you don't have to give your entire being over to something because they don't, theater will never take care of that. You have to take care of yourself, right? That it is a profession, it's not a hobby. Yeah. I just, I want to button up by saying something else that I heard you say that I think is like relevant as far as, there's like, I don't need to rehash like, oh, talk backs of slave play, like everyone can look that up if that's something they want to talk about or read about. But I really appreciate that you are very clear about my audience, I do not owe anything to my audience beyond presenting the work. They are not deserving of my time. And I think like, I get in trouble because I'm Midwestern where I'm like, I'll engage someone in conversation for way too long. But I also think it's, I'm like looking for the exit the whole time. But I think it's important to remember that like being in the public eye does not mean that the public needs to have access to you all the time. And being a millennial, I think people who are on social media, like a lot of us are, we're very easy to find. But that even social media is a creation of your persona. And it's not, I think it's important to have a self that is separate, that is not accessible from through your industry or to your audience for your sanity. Right, yeah. And I also think, I particularly am keen and that I'm not responsible for your comfort. My job is not to make you comfortable. No one's making me comfortable. I'm triggered and uncomfortable every time I turn on the TV. For the last four years I've been uncomfortable. And currently I'm fully uncomfortable, but I'm supposed to go into work and try and make 800 people a night comfortable. And so I think that there's also that, it's a very tricky thing, right? Because we have the word trigger in many ways as artists, our job is to trigger you. Our job is to make you cry. Our job is to make you sad, make you happy, make you scared. Our job is to embed these triggers into the work. And then you want us to make you comfortable with it. And it's like, you have to go to other places to get your comfort, because I don't have the time to give you comfort actually. It's just too taxing to do that and protect myself. Do you believe in trigger warnings at all? Would you ever want to put a trigger warning on a play or would you want to do away with them? Oh, I think the name O'Hara should be the trigger warning. Like that should be your trigger warning. Who's directing? Oh, that's Oaken. No, that's my trigger warning. I do think the trigger warnings are good. And especially if you sort of like, you are not sure about certain things, but I don't think that they should be excuses, right? And I also think you should give away things, but I do think that there should be, so it's just like a, not like a rating, but this is about so-and-so-and-so-and-so, and I think it also requires individuals to do the work. You're walking into something, I mean, the title of the play is Slave, and it's a play, you know what I mean? So, people have come to see my play called Booty Candy, and they were like, wait a second, what is this? This is dirty? I'm like, yeah, it's called Booty Candy. It was not a euphemism, not a moniker, it's about booty. I said exactly what it was about, you know? So there's the sort of give and take, but I also don't run theaters. So I think that the theater should do whatever they feel to protect the audiences and to make them feel safe. I'm still laughing about that. That's, that is the kind of energy I'm trying to put into this world. Let the name be the trigger warning. Right. Okay, I wanna switch gears a little bit. So you are also a wonderful, beautiful playwright, and so being, it sort of makes sense how you would direct new plays, like why playwrights would want someone who also writes play to be in the room to help cook that. And I'm really interested to talk more about specifically your Macbeth at Denver Center, but really anytime you're directing an existing work, how does your experience of telling a very specific story from your own voice when you write your new plays, how does that marry with your direction of an old play? Like how do you bring the queerness or whatever it is you want to bring to a text that you were not in the room to develop? Well, I think, you know, it all goes back to knowing who you are and not have to think that, oh my God, I have to like make this into something clear, whether I know how I walk through the life, I walk through a life in the body that I have and people react to that and that fills me with information. So that changes the way I do certain things, you know, and my protections are certainly different than sort of heterosexual protection when they're out in the real world, right? So I think of then as I investigate stories differently, right, and so it's a conversation just like a new play. It's always a conversation and it's about finding what this is mean to me, right? And you know, you talk about Shakespeare and one of the things that I did with Shakespeare is that I was struck by, in the Scottish play, by the line, you should be women but you have beers. And I was like, oh, that's because Shakespeare wrote this with men in mind to play all the characters and they probably did have beers and so it was probably an inside joke. And then I said, but what if they were men? What if they did have beers? And, you know, and so what happens if everyone is a man in this world in the same way that you would go, oh, I was thinking about the locker room of Mileteenth at Donald Trump. Like, you know how we say that certain people can, oh, just locker room talk, you know, men talk about that and what I'm like, I've never said that. So, and I'm a man. So, I don't know how that makes it in any different. But, and I didn't participate in locker rooms. So, I don't know what that coach is. So I was like, well, let's see what that coach would be for the Scottish play. And so investigating a question that I had because I didn't, I avoided locker rooms as a child. You know, I've never taken a shower with a bunch of men. You know, and I think that's one of the gayest things on the earth to be taking showers with a bunch of naked men. And get a lot of heterosexual men, like, I do it all the time. We slap each other's butts. I'm like, what? And I'm gay? So I think it's all about how you sort of investigate things. And so I have a sort of a different take, I guess. And it's because of who I am, right? I let that lead me. Not because of what I think the audience would want, but what I'm interested in investigating. I love that. And I think what I also would want to add a reminder is like, investigating through your lens is, it's not a sort of like handicap to come over. That is the power. That is what makes it unique and yours and riveting and live and real, especially when we're like putting wind under the sails of these very old texts again. Like your questions, your investigations are what give it the power. Right. And that's why when you have the same people doing the investigation, you have boring theater. When it's the same person from the same background doing the same goddamn investigation, like we've seen your investigation already. We've seen it over and you've taught it to a bunch of other people. So what are the other investigations of this work can we do? You know, that's why it's so good to have different people investigating different texts. Yes. I'm I also really like that the sort of origin story of you going to Denver was Nataki Garrett asked if you wanted to direct barbecue, right? Something that you had already done or insurrection. No, it was, it was, I had already done a play at Steppenwolf. It was called Marie Antoinette. And so she wanted that. And so we were talking about that. And I said, I had already done, I didn't want to do that. Play again. I love that play and had a wonderful time right now. We've done it. So yeah, that's where it came from. Then we started talking about other things. And I love what you said about like sort of catch 22s of very often in order to be considered for classic theater, you have to have it on your resume already or to be considered to be the lead of a brand new, like, you know, two-hander or something. You have to have that on your resume already. But how do you get that on your resume? If it's not on your resume. And how that also very much disproportionately affects people who are not, you know, so straight white men. But I'm curious. So that sort of catch 22 of directing Shakespeare is something that you have bridged now, which sort of like you said, will probably open doors if that's something you want to do again. Is there another catch 22 that you feel like you want, that you want to, or like a gap that you want to bridge next? Well, there is a gap that I'm bridging. I'm going to be directing opera, an opera show. And so I'm very excited about that because I have no idea. I have none. I have no idea. I don't even know if I've sat through a full opera before. I mean, I know I have, but I can't tell because it's always so overwhelming. I have to sort of like leave at the sort of the fifth intermission or whatever and collect myself because there's so many things happening. But that was always something that I was interested in. So I think, you know, you're someone, they always want to put you in a box, you know, as an artist, you know this. They always want to try, as I said, give you a contextualizer and tell you, this is what you do. So I was for a very long time, the risky playwright and then the director and then I was the person who did new plays, right? And you always want to stretch yourself. But if you are not a white man, you normally are not allowed to stretch. You know, I looked this way and therefore I, they decide what I should be directing or they decide that someone else should be directing something because they give it more, they can make it more palpable, right? You know, to an audience, I would not make it palpable. So I don't get called in for a lot of plays written by white people and yet a lot of white people get called in for plays written by black people because somehow white people can give contextualization to black work, but black people can't contextualize white work. Because they're thinking about who the audience is, which is overwhelmingly white, yeah. And that I can only be black, you know, I can only be black, I can only be queer, give them all the black queer shit and throw everything else. So it's like, you know, once you recognize that's what they're doing, then you can have the conversation like they're talking and I said, well, what do you want to do? I want to do Shakespeare, you know, if you're going to ask me what I'm going to do, but that's what I'm a trained director. I trained in Shakespeare and how am I going to get to learn how to do it unless I do it, you know? Exactly. And that's what it is about doing it that teaches you how to do it, right? Which is what's exciting to me about the Shakespeare. I love it. Okay, I have one last question and you've mentioned it a couple of times that you sort of get labeled as like risky or I've heard like, oh, like Robert O'Hare is so provocative. When you're, when you're, when, what I'm hearing from you is you're saying like, actually just am who I am. I'm telling the stories that I want to tell and that are, you know, relevant to my life and experience, but sure, if that's really provocative for you to learn about, fine. But I actually, that is my question. Like, is that a label that you embrace? And if not, like, what, what space would you rather be filling? Like, what would you rather be known for if not that? You know, I do embrace it because it lets me inside the room. I don't have to explain myself. If you think I'm fully crazy, batshit crazy, then you will leave me alone when I walk into the room, right? I don't have to introduce myself. I'm the batshit crazy provocative person. Good, great. You know what I'm doing here. That's what I'm going to do. It gives me a sort of, that's the way about being risky. Now I don't have to walk into the room and go, wait a second, you guys. This is going to be a little risky, this idea, you know? So now they expect, and if I don't do risky, they're like, wait a second. What is that? You know? So I don't think it is as risky. I just walk into life as a Black career person, right? And other people find that to be either provocative or risky, you know? You know, people are terrified. Some people want to kill me in the streets. Some people want to, you know, fetishize me or whatever. But that's about them. So I think I embrace things that allow me to not actually have to reintroduce myself. And if being labeled risky or provocative allows me to get in and do the work, and when I do something risky, you expected it, then that's great. I don't have to introduce that to you. I love that. This is, that's amazing. Can I give you a little tarot reading? I'm terrified. I don't want to know nothing that I should not know. That's what I'm saying. Have you had a tarot reading before? I don't want to know nothing that I should not know. Okay. Well, we're, we won't be, we won't be telling the future really. And you, you set the tone. So you can ask any question that you do want to know the answer to, or if you don't have a specific question and just like want a tone or a theme, that can be fine too. But no, I won't. I'm not predicting your death date. I'm not giving you a signing any time that you haven't had yet. No, just your opportunity for a little bit of insight on something you're curious about. I'm curious about how do we as queer individuals hold grace for each other? There's so much animosity for someone, you know, who slips, who doesn't have, pronounce the right pronoun or doesn't say the right, you know, cultural reference or who has, you know, done something and said something that just, you know, is not taking into account the safety or the room, right? And how does one hold grace for that and hold accountability for it? So because I, I'm as a director and as a writer, I'm going back into room and, and, and I'm going to be expected to lead. And, and, you know, as an artist, there, I, I, I want a sense of openness and I want a sense of, you know, they always say that you should be happy to fail in the rehearsal room. That's what is about, you know, failure, right? And get back up and do it again. But how do we hold that in our own lives between us and not, you know, tear each other down? But I see so much tearing each other down, you know, for saying the wrong thing at the wrong moment, you know, and, and also be artists, you know, because sometimes we create characters that say the wrong thing at the wrong moment. So I guess my question or my thought and tone is, how, how do we want hope grace for each other? That is a great, I love that question, especially, especially for a queer community that is in and of itself very diverse. And we do, I hope, want to be bringing each other all along. So that's amazing. So I've been shuffling this deck. Now I'm just going to sort of cut it on camera. You say stop whenever it feels like the right moment and then the top card is going to be yours. Cut out. Great. Okay. So the question of how to bring grace, especially to our other queer folk when we're all trying to do the best by ourselves, for ourselves and for each other. Cool. So especially considering what you just said, that you are a leader, you're about to go back into rooms where you are, you know, in charge of it. We drew the emperor. So the emperor is about, Is it black? Is the emperor black? Yes, he is. Okay, okay. Yeah. So the emperor is like the symbol of leadership and in the sort of gendered version of the tarot, he's about like a patriarchy, but this is sort of like an intentionally queerer deck than the traditional decks. So it could be like a representation of like the, you know, the sort of law or rule of society, but he's got that staff on here with the globe and the mountains in the background, which sort of symbolize like sturdiness, groundedness, holding on to the totality of everyone, but I don't know, he kind of looks like humble to me, not like a scary totalitarian sort of leader. So this card is about leadership and structure. I feel, I really love that question and it comes up for me personally a lot, sort of intergenerationally, especially when it comes to like pronouns and like, you know, people wanting to be like, hey, respect this and learn this and other people being like, I am on this learning curve and it moves in this way, but also not realizing that that sort of goes two ways. You know, because younger generations also like have a history that they need to be somewhat aware of, of how we did get to the place where we are, where we're all happily clacking our fans at Pride and, you know, and the, even for me personally, thinking about the last year and a half, though it is extremely different in so many ways, as someone who was not really conscious during the AIDS pandemic, the AIDS crisis, I'm sort of starting to like internalize the lessons that I was told by queer elders, or be able to like have more of a personal understanding of what they're talking about. So anyway, as far as giving grace to each other, I guess the suggestion is to show that with leadership, is to lead by example, but also what I think about like the emperor as far as like the sturdiness, it's interesting because that could indicate a sort of resistance to change, but I think as far as leading forward and sort of bringing everyone along, this sort of slow, steady motion that we're all able to participate in is also a value. We're going to draw a sonnet as well, which will illuminate even more. So I'm going to do the same thing. You just tell me when it's ready. This is sonnet 116. Let me not to the marriage of true minds admit impediments. Love is not love which alters when it alteration finds or bends with the remover to remove. Oh no, it is an ever-fixed mark that looks on tempests and is never shaken. It is the star to every wandering bark whose worth's unknown, although his height be taken. Love's not time's fool, though rosy lips and cheeks within his bending sickle's compass come. Love alters not with his brief hours and weeks, but bears it out even to the edge of doom. If this be error and upon me proved, I never writ, nor no man ever loved. I love that as a pride sonnet about love as the most steadfast in our ever-changing world, especially when we think about chosen family. And sometimes the other queer folks in the chosen family, they can and have said some of the most fucked up shits to each other with whatever they're dealing through that's been internalized in the way we tear each other down. But the sort of invaluable-ness of going through the changes that our world goes through and leading with that love and the sort of combination of that with leadership, I think the suggestion is to lead in setting that tone and that if you give queer people the grace and the love, then of course they should be giving it to us back in return. I'm going to read this one last time just because there's lots of words and I'm going to let you look at the card and then you let me know if there's anything that you sort of notice about either of them. Let me not to the marriage of true minds admit impediments. Love is not love which alters when it alteration finds or bends with the remover to remove. Oh no, it is an ever-fixit mark that looks on tempests and is never shaken. It is the star to every wandering bark whose worth's unknown although his height be taken. Love's not time's fool though rosy lips and cheeks within his bending sickle's compass come. Love alters not with his brief hours and weeks but bears it out even to the edge of doom. If this be error and upon me proved I never writ nor no man ever loved. Anything jumping out to you? Yeah, well the first thing that jumped out from the first time you showed the card as I said that it was a black and poor. As black people we don't get to see ourselves as leaders or kings or gods in society and it's also Shakespearean it feels. And he feels pensive and so with you reading that it feels like how do I lead with love? How do I and love fully? Love even the difficult parts of each other and love you because you are difficult because there's work to be done not despite. So I'm very moved by that. I also love his sandals. All right, I want to pair those too. Exactly, it lays out. I would never be able to pull it off. And also I'm wondering he just feels like it feels like to be or not to be. It feels like he's in, it's not a sort of posture of pretending to be the leader. He is the leader and he's thinking about something and I think he's thinking about how do I lead with love? Yeah, I love that we drew not just the emperor but the specific emperor drawing from this deck and thinking so much about the beautiful plays that you have written from the perspective of not just a black queer not just a black person not just a queer person not just a man but a black queer man for whom the expression of love and tenderness especially between each other is seems like this impossible thing to express and you have created so much space in our industry and in storytelling and for so many other people who do resonate and who do feel that way and who do want to be able to express their love in all of its imperfections as opposed to hold on to the things that they feel like they're not going to you know like oh I don't want to make a mistake so I'm just like not going to do it at all. And so with giving, with asking the world for grace and asking our community for grace within each other especially when we get back to collaboration I love I think this reading is like keep on keeping on and leading in the way that you have led you know our world is going to be so different it already has been in the last few years in the last decades and I think it's only going to start getting more different more quickly and if we hold on to the fierceness of love and our chosen worlds through all of that then I think the community will only get stronger even in times when it feels like it might fracture I think we as queer people have learned how to keep together like that glue yes we have to hold each other you know we have to hold each other and give each other that grace yeah this has been great thank you thank you so much for being here it has been so lovely to be in conversation and community with you I really appreciate you spending your time I know it's late in New York now I had time thank you I had so much fun I'm so glad so that I'll say goodbye I know you are doing like a really amazing festival of solo work at Williamstown that you're curating so if people are in you know the Berkshires in the New York area give that a look up I'm really excited to hear how that goes and I can't wait till our next meeting yes me too all right thank you bye Robert bye bye thank you yay awesome thank you all so much for being here for another wonderful episode of Teacakes and Tarot thank you to HowlRoundTV thank you to our producer Island Shakespeare Festival thank you to my co-creator Erin Murray and thank you to our interpreter Brad Galloway once again I am Will Wilhelm this has been our Pride Month episode and y'all we're gonna go on a summer hiatus so you won't be seeing us again in this space until the fall I think September so in the meantime we're not going to leave you without content Teacakes and Tarot is available as a podcast we just dropped our eighth episode today so our first season which we did live last fall and winter is going to be available for you to listen to at your leisure so go ahead on your favorite podcast app download and subscribe to Teacakes and Tarot we'll hang out with you there if you want to stay connected with us on social you can also follow us on Instagram at Teacakes and Tarot or my personal account is at Will Wilhelm until then please please please be so sweet to each other be so sweet to yourself and I hope you have really sweet dreams happy Pride bye