 Welcome to NewsClick. Today we are going to discuss the current situation in Kashmir. We have a guest with us, Khurram Parvez. Welcome to NewsClick. He is a human rights activist and he is going to talk to us about what the current situation in Kashmir is really like. We don't get any news from Kashmir, so Khurram is going to tell us. After 5th August last year to now, how has the situation changed in Kashmir, in the valley? Since August 5th, people have suffered in multiple ways. One of the main thing was arrests, the detentions across valley and also in Jammu province. Thousands of people were arrested. The government still is not giving accurate figures. They are saying that more than 5,000 people were arrested. But based on our work on the ground, we feel that the numbers are much higher because these are about people whose arrest has been registered. But we were able to meet a lot of those people whose arrest was not registered. They were asked to be in the police station, come to police station every day. They had to spend their whole days in police stations, at least 5 to 6 days. Some people have spent many more weeks but they were not registered in any FIR. Their arrest was also not legalized in any manner. So we feel that the number of people who have been arrested from 4th August onwards is unprecedented in Kashmir. Not this many people all of a sudden without any provocation were never arrested. Even in the 90s? Even in the 90s altogether, this many people were never arrested. Over a period of time, yes, for 2-3 years, this would have happened. But not immediately, within just 3-4 days, the number of people were arrested. Then militarization, the deployment of troops, it was unprecedented. We already have 650,000 armed forces and police deployed in Jammu and Kashmir. Then according to government, an additional 40,000 armed forces personnel were brought in Kashmir. But we believe the number might not be accurate again. The numbers were much higher. So they were deployed across every corner of Kashmir, every street. Every street was occupied by soldiers. They wouldn't let anyone go out, even if people were coming out for medicines or any other medical emergency or food for children or anything. So first few days was very strict curfew, people were not able to move out. And then wherever people, after watching the news on TV, because phones were immediately snapped and internet was snapped, so there was no way by which we would know what is happening even in our neighborhood. So TV was the only source for us to know what is happening. So we got to know that article 370, 35A has been abrogated. So there were places where people wanted to come out, maybe protest. But there was such deployment that it was made impossible for people to come out on streets for anything, whether it's protest or whether it's for their own daily needs. After that we saw that people in fact decided that they would not step out. They would not go to shops, not go out anywhere. And people in the rest of India, they thought of this as a protest, as a form of protest. Yeah, actually government did not allow for at least a month for shops to open. So there were restrictions across, so even more than a month there were restrictions across. And there were many places where people were able to protest. Wherever people came out and protested we saw they were armed forces who encountered them and they were firing pellets and tear gas shells and also firing in the air. But also a particular phenomenon of torture was happening everywhere. Anyone who was seen involved in protest was arrested and tortured. So there were many, many cases of torture and vandalism by armed forces. They would, in any place where people would come out, they would go in that locality and beat people. So we have, I mean the international media also documented this. We have documented this in our reports also. This was something which we saw that there's a pattern. Wherever there were protests, armed forces would go into that location and go inside the houses, do vandalism, destroy property, beat people, all torture of all sorts would be done. And then all of this, the conduct of the government which protracted for a long time. People were mourning, people were shocked for what government of India is doing. So therefore then when there was time when government started actually saying that everything is normal. So then they started there because there was international pressure. Internationally there were people talking, the government's talking about Kashmir, what's happening there. So then under pressure government wanted to showcase that things are normal and shops are opening. And that's the time when Kashmiri people on their own, without being informed by any political party, they decided not to open shops. So the shops would only open early in the morning till 9 a.m. And then throughout the day there would be shutdown. So this continued for a long time and then when the weather was also changing, timings were also shifting. So then later it was still 10 a.m. in the morning, then 11 a.m. And then from 1st December there has been no shutdown. But throughout otherwise you would see shutdown completely. What is the situation like now? Now we see at least there has been restoration of businesses. I mean to whatever extent we could call it as restoration. I mean the shops are open. The other businesses have been negatively impacted in a very big way because tourists were asked by government to leave and also the labourers, economic migrants, all of them also left around that time. So business was impacted, agriculture and horticulture production was impacted because the trucks couldn't come in these restrictions to take the apples and other fruits out from Kashmir. So yeah people have suffered a lot. But now people don't want this suffering to prolong and that's the reason why people are slowly limping back to normalcy. I mean whatever we would call it as normalcy. Yes what would that normalcy be like? I mean it's not normal as such. I mean it's just for the lack of proper words I called it normalcy. I mean the fact is that normalcy would be a time when Kashmiri people or people anywhere in the world would be allowed to have protest if they want to. Would be allowed to have free expression of their opinion. That's not happening in Kashmir at all. Even today when government of India claims everything is normal the right to protest has been completely seized in Kashmir. We have the reality in Kashmir that from last 30 years the section 144 has been completely imposed throughout. I mean I see and hear people in Delhi and other parts questioning the imposition of section 144 because they wanted to protest. But this is something where we see hypocrisy in the media in India and also in the civil society because this is something which has been going on in Kashmir from last 30 years. No one has questioned India on its conduct in Kashmir where right to freedom of assembly and association has been permanently criminalized. Freedom of expression has been permanently choked. People have not been able to write. Those who write were arrested. I mean if you see the people who have been arrested were not only political activists. These were also human rights activists. These were also columnists. People who would write articles. Those who had written anything on article 370 and 35A they were the people who were behind the bars. So there is no space for people to do politics in Kashmir. Now there is talk that the government, the central government is creating this space for politics afresh. So what are the possibilities? I mean still most of the leaders are in jail from all leading parties. Whether it's Hurriyat, whether it's National Conference, whether it's PDP all the top leadership is in jail. So government wants to manufacture consent and they want to manufacture a party of its own which tows the line of the ruling dispensation in New Delhi and that is what they would want to call as space for politics. Would this be very different, this particular aspect, very different from what it was like after 1989 in Kashmir? I mean if you ask Kashmiris it is not for the first time we are witnessing this. This is something from 1947 till now we have witnessed several times. Sheikh Abdullah was the prime minister in 1953. He was arrested and he spent 20 years in and out of jail around that time. So just to get him to agree to the line of the government in New Delhi. At that point of time it was Nehru and the Congress party which wanted to manufacture consent in Kashmir and now it's BJP. So no political party can claim that their hands are clean when it comes to Kashmir. All of them have a blood on their hands. One of the unusual reports which came from Delhi was that the National Commission for Protection of Child Rights has said that there are protests going on in the rest of the country in Delhi and that there are children who are involved and here we have a democratic protest which is non-violent, which is completely held in a neighbourhood setting and the authorities feel that the children need counselling. Tell me what would a Kashmiri think about a remark like this? You know we think that in India, institutions and people in politics whenever they have spoken about protests and Kashmir, they have crossed all the absurdities. They have crossed all the limits. They have always blamed those who are protesting against the violence of the state. If at all they want children not to indulge in violence, protests, the only thing which they have to do is allow space for politics. They have to allow space for freedom of expression. They have to end violence in Kashmir. So it is the government violence which leads to protest. So the best counselling which needs to happen is for the rulers in India. They need counselling and not our children. So the point that I am asking you to comment on is that if this space did exist, if there was a freedom to have a political option, then leaving aside whether the Indian state would find it palatable or not, would there be a different form of protest we would be seeing in Kashmir? No, I think it is the conduct of the Indian state which has created the scenario in Kashmir of militancy or stone pelting. If there was space, you would see that why would people throw stones if there was space for politics? And why would children come out to protest if their parents, for example, were not arrested? If their parents were not tortured, why would they come out? Because everyone has been brutalized in Kashmir. So it is impossible to expect that their children would not come out if the father of the child has been arrested. What kind of violence would this be if you tell a child that your father has been arrested but you don't have the right to come out on the street because you are a child? So I think the problem is people, it is also a form of education and when you are living in a conflict zone like Kashmir, for children it is not only schools by which they get education. It is also that the kind of situation which they are living in, they need to acquaint themselves of what is happening, they need to participate in the politics of that place. I mean, internationally everywhere people are talking about that young people should learn and discuss politics and they should participate in the political processes. In a conflict zone, what is the politics in which they will participate? So how can Kashmiri children remain insensitive to the situation around, insensitive to the situation which their parents are faced with? And also because Kashmiri children have become victims of the same violence. Yes, they have. I mean if you see, for example from 5th of August, even in the Supreme Court, the High Court juvenile committee submitted a report admitting that 144 children were arrested. We visited some of them and we found out that the report is not even accurate because the report says that some of these children were arrested in the morning and released in the evening. So they were detained only for the day. But that's not a fact. We have seen that many of the children spent many days in the lockups, in the police lockups. And this is not the only number. They have said 144. The number might be much, much higher. So we feel that even when Supreme Court was seized of the matter that they knew that children were being arrested and detained, instead of passing a speaking order which would then take those to account who had carried out these arrests, they did not do that. They just have heard and this has been part of the records now. So no speaking order has been passed on this. And that tells you that how differential treatment is being meted out to people of Kashmir even by Supreme Court. There are some who say that the Indian government did in state is behaving in the rest of India as it does in Kashmir. And that slowly we're building up to a situation of sort of melting point. Do you see the Kashmiri people now find greater sense of affinity with Muslims in the rest of the country? Is the perception changing? No, I mean Kashmiri Muslims and Indian Muslims are two different political entities and Kashmiris have never considered themselves to be part of the Indian Muslim narrative and Indian Muslim culture. But of course there is sympathy for whatever is happening, how they are being victimized in India despite the fact that they chose to live in India and they are being victimized for their choice. So there is sympathy, great sympathy for Indian people, anyone who is suffering in India including Indian Muslims. But we feel also that injustice anywhere is threat to justice everywhere. So whatever injustice is India was perpetrating in Kashmir but also in for example Nagaland, Assam, Manipur and Punjab in the past. The statecraft learned how to treat people, how to violate people, how to wrong people. So they have now after learning it in the laboratory of violence like Kashmir and Nagaland and Northeast, they are now perpetrating the same on people of India, whether it's Kudankulam protests or whether it's protests of the fishermen across India or whether it's Adivasis coming protesting or now Muslims coming out to protest. So Indian states conduct has been very violent. But we still see that there is still a lot of space for Indian Muslims or others to protest when it comes to Kashmir, it's different because in Kashmir it's not only the legal impunity which is enjoyed by the armed forces. In Kashmir it is also the moral and political impunity because Indian people completely agree with the lies perpetrated by the Indian state when it comes to Kashmir. So there are no questions asked when people are being killed in Kashmir. But of course when we saw recently people being killed, people from all faiths, all communities, all sections of society express their disgust against the conduct of the Indian state, the protests against CAA. But that didn't ever happen on Kashmir. We have never seen outrage in India on what is happening in Kashmir. There is largely acceptance on the government narrative on Kashmir. What would be the perception of Muslims about the CAA and NRC? We don't get to hear anything our people thinking. In Kashmir people understand what is happening on CAA and NRC but because in the past we have had our state subject laws. So we did have citizenship law in Kashmir which has been abrogated after the article 370. So under this law we do have everyone who has been documented as citizens. So people have state subject certificates. So that's why there's not much concern as such. People don't feel threatened because people do have documentation about this. So there is no question of boycott on the lines of... So far there is no question. So people are not worried about it at the moment. But people are concerned for what is happening in India. Also it's heartening to see that the slogans being used in Kashmir from last many many years are finding their way across India. The slogan of freedom. Kashmiris have popularized it for whole India. The slogan you are referring to which started in 2016 in JNU. I mean in Kashmir it has been going on from last many many years. So now I would like you to compare the 1990s with now with respect to one specific area. The protests of women. We've seen a lot of women protest in the anti-CA and RC protests here. Women have been protesting in Kashmir for a very long time. So when you see the women here protest did it strike you as something very unusual? Yes I mean unusual in the sense that we have seen for the first time Indian Muslims protesting. We haven't seen any sustained movement amongst the Indian Muslims for their rights. We do know that they have been disempowered and dispossessed in last 70 years. They have been made into second class citizens in India. And we were always surprised why is there no outcry amongst the Indian Muslims? So it is a pleasant surprise that now amongst the Indian Muslims particularly among the young Indian Muslims there is awakening and they're coming out and speaking for their rights. Now the thing is that the affinity is not there but the concern is there. One of the things that always strikes us is even the Supreme Court's role in the case of Anuradha Basin. Again the Supreme Court said that the government should not impose a lockdown unless it specifies very clearly why and there should be a clear chain of command in the orders that the government gives. But then it did not issue the order saying that the so now tell me that how to what extent is the internet and the mobile phone actually back? The Supreme Court's order on recent order on internet and section 144 and other things in Kashmir is a theoretical order. For the academic purposes it's a good judgment because they have for the first time declared internet as fundamental right. But we know in case of Kashmir the right to life is already a fundamental right but never protected in Kashmir. So people have been killed and Supreme Court has remained silent in the past on the killings in Kashmir. The judiciary has deliberately allowed itself to become dysfunctional when it comes to protecting the rights of the people of Kashmir. So this is a pattern. So even after this order when it came the order did not specify that internet should be immediately restored. They have allowed the government to twist the order as they would want to. So that's exactly what has happened even after so many days of this order being passed in Kashmir the internet has not been resumed at all. In Jammu also where government, BJP in the past election was able to win 25 seats. Even in Jammu they have only been able to have a restoration of broadband services and that too with very less bandwidth. So they are even scared of mobilization in Jammu. So people of Jammu have also been violated for their right to express themselves. So the Supreme Court order did not translate into anything for people so far. I think what has helped so far the resumption of phone services, the resumption of mobile phones has largely happened from the Kashmiri perspective. We would say that has largely happened because there is international condemnation. So we feel that if there was no international condemnation, if there was no international pressure the government would have not also blinked. And what is life like when your mobile phone doesn't work when you don't have? We felt very helpless Kashmiris when there was no internet, no phones, not even landlines. We didn't know what was happening to our relatives, what was happening to our other friends. Where are they? We didn't know how to contact them. We were not able to move also. So it was an absolute feeling of helplessness. People were very frustrated. You could hear people becoming very emotional about what was happening to us. And that has changed Kashmir for good also. If you see, even if there was someone who had any hopes from the Indian institutions, that hope has been dashed. So Kashmir has changed completely now with all these restrictions which were imposed. And no Kashmiri feels that they are safe with Indian government. You mentioned restrictions and institutions. There's one institution which in maybe in the name of secularism, the Indian state always allows people to go to mosques. It allows them to practice their religion. And then at the same time it also says that there is Islamization and there is a need for de-radicalization again of children. So can you just break down this for me? What does this all mean? The biggest problem is that this allegation of Islamization in Kashmir is coming from those people who have voted in power of the fastest government, a party which is clearly Hindu right-wing. Radicalization, it has happened to the Indian society. Lynchings and violence, if it is happening anywhere in India, it's happening in India, not in Kashmir. So I don't think they have any moral right to make comments on Kashmir's radicalization. I think it's a political propaganda against people of Kashmir to malign and criminalize the political movement in Kashmir wherein it has been alleged that there is Islamization. We do not see actually that kind of Islamization. I mean if at all there was Islamization and extreme radicalization happening in Kashmir, there would be takers for Al-Qaeda and ISIS ideology. There are no takers for these ideologies still in Kashmir. And also for example, after 5th of August, if as it has said that there is extreme radicalization, why did it not translate into more young boys joining militancy? So I think these are lies being told. The total number of militants according to government is around 250 who are operating in Jammu and Kashmir. But what is the total number of armed forces? Why are we never talking about the violence and the bigotry of the Indian state in Kashmir? The total number of armed forces and police operating in Jammu and Kashmir is more than 600,000. With all kinds of draconian laws they are empowered with and a complete lack of accountability in Jammu and Kashmir. There is not even a single case where an armed forces personal has been prosecuted for any human rights violation in last 30 years. We have cases like Konanposhpura where 40 women were gang raped in one night by Indian army. That case is lying in Supreme Court from last 5 years and there has been no progress in that case. There is no priority in the Supreme Court for a case like Konanposhpura where 40 women were gang raped. No justice has been provided to any kind of human rights violation in Kashmir. We have more than 70,000 people who were killed in Kashmir and then we have more than 8,000 people who disappeared in Kashmir in last 30 years. We also have hundreds of cases of rape in Kashmir. We have mass graves in Kashmir. The State Human Rights Commission has ordered the government that they should conduct DNA tests of these unmarked graves and mass graves. The government completely has ignored all these orders and also the international community has been asking. The European Parliament, the UN, the UN Human Rights Council, the Office of the High Commissioner for Human Rights in UN. So many places people are asking government of India to conduct investigations, allow investigations to happen in Jammu and Kashmir. Last 30 years, government has completely blocked all kinds of investigations into human rights abuses. Does the state itself fuel a certain kind of religiosity when it limits you? It is. Like for example, what they are doing is that they have been completely bombarding Kashmiris. There is Islamization, there is Islamization. But on the other hand, there are no social spaces, there is no space for politics. When it is choking all kinds of spaces, when there is restrictions for months, the only place where people can go is a mosque. So what would happen? There would be some amount of religiosity which will take place in Kashmir and it is happening. But also the fact is that because people have been violated and criminalized in Kashmir because they are Muslims, so if their identity is being challenged, if their identity is being attacked, people will go back to their identity and Kashmiris when they are talking about being Muslims and Islamic identity, it is basically in reaction to what is being done by the Indian state. So they should not be surprised, they should be questioning their own conduct in Kashmir. Have you ever seen something like a deradicalization camp? I think it is an exaggeration. They would like to be compared with China that they do have camps. They don't have facilities like deradicalization camps. But they have been doing this in Kashmir, in the normal army camps. So in the normal army camps and police stations, these boys who are involved in protests are being detained or are being forcibly invited to listen to sermons of the armed forces personnel so that they teach them about religion, they teach them about Sufism, they teach them about democracy. So one can understand what kind of democracy would be preached in a police station or in an army camp. So that kind of deradicalization, if they think that they are doing, I think they are just fooling themselves because they are only radicalizing people further. My last question, the government's hope is that somewhere people will simply accept what it has done and then normalcy, is that what you are seeing happen? People haven't forgotten what was promised to them in 1947 in Kashmir. So Jawaharlal Nehru promised Kashmiris referendum. They promised Kashmiris in Kashmir and they also promised this in the UN. So if people haven't forgotten that promise, we should be sure that no one is going to forget about what India has done in recent last 30 years as well. And the BJP somewhere is slowly losing its grip, the strength and the power which it thought it has in abrogating these articles. Is some resistance? Congress hanged Afzal Guru in 2013 hoping that it will help them in garnering support in elections across India. So we see that people of Kashmir have suffered for the domestic political motives of these parties. So BJP has positioned itself as a party which would persecute Kashmiris and hopefully that would sell amongst the people of India. Of course it sells, that's an unfortunate reality in India. But the fact is that it will not sell always. So for Congress in the past they were not benefitted for all the crimes which they perpetrated against Kashmiris and hoped that people of India would be mesmerized by that. Similarly people in India might be mesmerized by the BJP now but not always, not throughout. People in India will at some point of time ask right questions. Alright, thank you for joining us.