 Bismillah ar-Rahman ar-Raheem. As-salatu wa-salamu ala ash-shayf al-andir al-mursaleen. Sayyidina Muhammad wa-alaihi wa-sahbihi wa-salam al-ameen. Jazakum Allah khayr for joining us tonight. I'm really excited to be here with Sheikh Mustafa Omar. As you guys may know, I live nearby MCC, but I used to be very fortunate to live next to Islamic Institute of Orange County in Anahem, California. And frequent, Masjid Omar Kharouq over there, where Sheikh Mustafa Omar was the imam previously. And so I had the opportunity to get to know him and learn from him, alhamdulillah. And it was a great, great blessing. And before that, I used to go to attend his halakha at the Islamic Center of Corona, which was a great blessing as well. So honored to have all of you here today, honored to have Sheikh Mustafa here to talk about something that I think will be very interesting and beneficial, insha'Allah. Just to learn from a little bit about Sheikh Mustafa's journey to Islam and sort of the different twists and turns that that took. And I've heard him discuss this before and found it inspirational, found it interesting and took lessons for myself. So I hope that it'll be the same for all of you. So Sheikh Mustafa, if you don't mind to, you know, just to get us started. If you could just set the stage for us a little bit, let us know, you know, kind of where were you born? What was the family environment that you came up in? And especially as it relates to your, you know, affiliation or sense of understanding with regards to Islam. Bismillah ar-Rahman ar-Rahim. So I was born and raised in Southern California. I was born in Cerritos. I think my parents probably came to this country like the 1960s or something like that. So I was born in 1981. I was in Cerritos, went to public school up until second grade. And then we moved to Tustin, which is near Irvine. Tustin, California went to elementary school there, middle school, high school. And like the Islamic upbringing was not very Islamic. My parents were very, you know, culturally Muslim. My mother came from like, like a Pakistani upper middle class, maybe upper class family. So at that time they tended to be a little bit secular in nature. They would never go to a Masjid or something like that. So she came from that family. My father, he came from not a very wealthy family, but kind of had a similar thing. So when they came to America, they, I don't even know if they went to Juma or not in the beginning, but like once I was born, they would go to Juma sometimes. No other prayers. Ramadan is fasting. It's going to happen, but not really prayers. They knew that it would donate drink alcohol, don't eat pork, but that's pretty much it. So friend circle was Muslim, Hindu mix. So a lot of culture mixed in with Islam and that's kind of the environment that we grew up in. And then I think my parents, they discovered this really awesome baby sitting service called Sunday School. It was in one of the largest Masjids in the Garden Grove Masjid, Islamic Society of Orange County. So I remember that like from kindergarten through eighth grade, we went to Sunday School. But if you ask me like, what did we learn? I can't remember like anything besides like the five pillars of Islam. It's like the names of the five pillars of Islam. So like if you ask me like anything about like, well, what does Islam teach or what is the meaning of Islam? Or like, you know, what is the cow? What does it mean? I can't tell you anything beyond the five, you know, five names. So that was kind of like the environment growing up in like elementary school, middle school stuff like that. Did you have any siblings? I had one elder brother. One elder brother and he was in the same way like this means three years older than me. So you were in public school besides the Sunday School? So I was in public school all the way, you know, to high school with exception of one year. So in third grade, because of my brother, my brother was kind of the misbehaving kid. I was like the good kid, you know. So at that time, it was very common for like Muslim families to be like, you know what? Let's put our kids in a Christian school. So they put us in a Christian school in third grade. Mainly because of my brother. It was very interesting. Like we learned the books of the Bible. You know, they were not afraid of like Christianity. Like a Catholic school or Protestant? It was a peace Lutheran school. So peace Lutheran school and then everything was like going fine until I remember one day, you know, I came home. But one time my brother came home and he's like, you know, mom, dad, I want to be the one who likes the candles in the church. They're like, oh my God, what's happening here? And then one day I came home later on and I'm like, you know what? Mom, dad, can you take me to school tomorrow? It's on a Saturday. Why would you go to school on Saturday? Well, you know, I'm doing this, this one thing, you know, because I'm getting this gift basket. What do you mean you're getting a gift basket? Like, yeah, you know, they said that we're going to get this really cool gift basket with like all these goodies. If you go and you get baptized, right? So I'm like, so I'm going, I'm going tomorrow. I want you to drop me to school so I can get baptized. My mom is like flipping out. She's like, what are you talking about? We didn't send you to Christian school for this. And my dad's looking and he's like, what does baptism mean? I don't even know what it means. So they explained it's like, it's like taking a shower. I'm like, okay, fine. So did you get baptized? They didn't let me. I'm done. Okay. So public school generally, one year you went to a Christian school. One year Christian school, the rest were just baptized. Almost baptized. Barely avoided. Barely. I'm done now. And then back to public school. And then back to public school. So if someone, if your classmate, you know, asked you in let's say eighth grade, what is, you know, I'm really excited for Christmas. Are you going to celebrate Christmas? What would your answer have been at that time? Yeah, we have a Christmas tree. So yeah, in the house we had Christmas trees. We had, my parents didn't do the whole stocking thing, but like we had presents under the Christmas tree. We were told like Santa's coming down the chimney and all that stuff. So that's kind of how we grew up. We grew up with like a very, very cultural and like secular, very Americanized, like culture. But at the same time there was like, when we got dropped to Sunday school, or when like, if we would go to the machine like once a week or something, we'd have to socialize with whoever's there. And then if we go to like another party with like Hindu friends, we'd socialize with the Hindu friends. So I didn't know the difference between like a Muslim and a Hindu. This is like people from our own culture. They speak like a similar language. I didn't really know the language that well. And like we couldn't really tell the difference. No. Okay. So let's say move on a little bit. Like let's say 9th, 10th grade. If someone asks you what your religion was like, would you say Islam or Muslims? So I think, you know, there was fasting. So we did fast in Ramalans. I remember that. I would say I'm Muslim. Yes. But I think the changing point, the really the big changing point was 11th grade. Right. So what my dad used to do is he owned a business. He would shut down his business in the winter, like the last two weeks, Christmas or winter break. And we'd always travel somewhere. So we traveled to like Pakistan. We would not go to any budget. We would not. We would just go and visit the people. Most of them don't pray because they're upper class, like very secular Pakistanis. We went to Turkey. We went to like, we even went to Palestine. Right. So we visited as well. And I just, I remember that like, somebody's pointing a M16, you know, at my mom, like, because she's arguing with them, you're not going to search her back again for like the fourth time. But we didn't understand what is much an aqsa. We didn't understand anything about the history. It was just like the cultural like tour. And it was kind of like eye opening that, you know, we did this tour, but still didn't understand very much about Islam until 11th grade. Finally, my dad decided, you know what, our trip for this year, we always went somewhere. Our trip for this year is going to be Makkah. And that was a huge turning point in my life at that time. So we like, we go to Makkah for the first time ever, like we're going to do Amra. I'm like, what is that? I don't even know what that is. So we go to Makkah. And at that time, it's still Makkah is, you know, still has a different feel to it. It's a different culture. So it was a huge culture shock that like, you heard the azan five times a day. All the shops close. Everyone's going to the Masjid for prayer. That's like, why, that's why they're there. So like this was a really like something which really shook me up. I'm like, I've never experienced anything like this in my life. Yeah. So that was, that was a big eye opening thing. And then something else happened in Makkah, which really changed, you know, my understanding of Islam. So I met some other like kids from America. They were in our tour group. They're like on the same bus as us. We were going for like Makkah to Medina. And when they came, they saw like, you know, me and my brother, these people don't look like very practicing Muslims or anything like that. It was not obvious. It was not hard to tell, right? We didn't really know what we're doing. We're just following whatever else is doing, right? So they're like, these kids don't know anything. They're just like here on tourism or something like that. So, and they had recently, I guess, probably started to like start practicing again. So they said, it's a good opportunity. We can make some dowel with these two kids. You know, they were a little bit older. So I remember this conversation. This is a long time because you remember some things in your history. So these kids, they look and they're like, you know, did you, and we always question things like our parents did, like out of culture, like this doesn't seem to make sense. Why are they doing this? Why are they doing that? So we're sitting in the bus and then they asked me and my brother, they're like, you know, have you ever wondered that like, why your parents do some of the things that they do and it doesn't make sense in Islam? I'm like, yeah, like some things just really just seem weird. It seems strange. It doesn't make sense. Like, for example, he goes, you know what? When you have a prayer carpet and you're praying, like your parents use a prayer carpet when they pray. I'm like, yeah, they do. You know? It's like, did they tell you that when you finish the prayer, you're supposed to fold it? I'm like, yeah, that's what they did. They fold the corner of the prayer carpet. And he goes, did they tell you why? He goes, yeah, they said, they said that Shefan will pray on your prayer carpet if you don't fold the corner. It's like, did that ever, did that ever make sense to you? I'm like, no, it didn't make any sense. Because like, let Shefan pray. That's a good thing. Let her pray. What's wrong with him praying? So like that kind of like opened up our mind. We're like, hey, this is like a Muslim who grew up similarly and is questioning certain things that didn't make sense. So like this resonated with us. So like me and my brother were like, hey, these kids are pretty smart. These kids are like, gosh, they don't have an accent. They're born and raised in America. And this is good questions that they're bringing up. So then they went and they motivated us and they're like, you know what, I guess they were like in their Salafi mode, like rediscovering Islam or whatever. So they told us, they're like, you know, have you ever read the Quran? We're like, of course, we had like the Quran teacher come and we read the Quran. We had to learn to read the Quran. He goes, no, no. Have you ever read the Quran in English? We're like, why do we do that? What's the point of that? Because in a traditional like desi household, everyone is taught to learn how to read Alif Bata and learn how to recite the Quran. And it's like, what happens is you have like a party. It's called a Bismillah party. When you start reciting the Quran. Well, I'm familiar with all the desis. I know it. Yeah, yeah, maybe some people don't know. So you have the party, right? Yeah. When you finish your Qaeda or whatever, you go into the Quran. Then you have the Amin party when you like do a completion of the Quran, right? So I remember very clearly my brother, when he did completion of the Quran, this Amin ceremony, right? They're like, what do you want to have at your Amin ceremony? So he's like, there was this pop singer named Bobby Brown. You remember this guy? And that guy, there was a rapper named MC Hammer. So my brother is like, you know, I want MC Hammer to come to like my Amin party. This is like the weirdest thing ever. We can't get him to come, you know? So it just shows you how far removed we're from like practicing Islam. So that's kind of like how it was. And the guy is asking like, did you ever like think about reading it in English so you can understand the Quran? We're like, no, we never really thought about that. But that kind of makes sense. So he motivated me to basically go to one of the Islamic bookstores there because there's nothing else to do in Makkah at the time, right? I'm not going to shop for stuff. There's a bunch of bookstores. He's like, come in and why don't you, you know, get a copy of the Quran and try and read what your, what does religion that your parents are teaching you that they follow? What is it about? So I'm like, okay, fine. So I bought a copy of the Quran. And then he convinces me further. He goes, you know what hadith is? No, what's hadith? He's like, you know, these are the statements of the Prophet, peace be upon him and this and that. And he goes, you know, it's very important to only follow authentic hadith, right? Don't follow like the other stuff. And I'm like, so the non-authentic stuff is probably where my parents are getting their weird ideas about like falling the carpet and stuff from. And they're like, yeah, exactly. And I'm like, okay, I want to avoid that stuff. That's the stuff that's always been bothering me. So then he's like, you know, there's this book. It's called Sahih al-Bukhari, right? And I'm like, he's like, have you ever heard of it? I'm like, no, I've never heard of it. Because these are the most authentic statements, you know? So he goes, you should buy this book. And I got all excited. I got super motivated, you know? And he's like, here's an abridged copy of Sahih al-Bukhari. So I looked at it and he's like, look, it's actually originally a huge one. This is the abridged, this is the one you should buy. And I'm like, no, no, I'm motivated, man. I'm going to buy the whole thing. So I bought all 10 volumes, right? And I'm like carrying it back all the way. And that's just like really when I started to say, hey, I'm going to start taking my religion more seriously. I'm going to like actually identify as a Muslim who has chosen his religion. And I'm practicing like because I want to practice. So that was like a big turning point in my life in junior year. So this is like winter break of your junior year of high school? Winter break of junior year or winter break of sophomore year. And then I ended up probably junior year of high school. And then you take these books back with you to the US? Take these books back with me to the United States. I carry them on the airplane because my parents are like, hey, all of our suitcases are full. So we didn't just come for Makkah. We came shopping, right? So we filled up all the suitcases. You want to bring these books back? There's no space for you. Sorry. You'd have to carry them. And I just got motivated by these kids and seeing Makkah and all that. I want to learn what this religion is about. So I remember I stuffed them all in my backpack. It was about to rip, right? And I'm carrying like 10 volumes of Sahih Bukhari plus the translation of Bukhari sitting there like carrying it, you know, on the airplane by myself. So yeah, that's how kind of like it started in the beginning. And then did you actually read all 10 volumes? No, no, no, not at all. So I got home and then I started to practice. I started like reading the Quran. And I'm like, oh, this is really interesting. You know what Quran is? I started reading like that. Do you remember what the translation was? It was Mosin Khan. Mosin Khan Taqiyudin Halali, the standard one at that time. So I was reading it, reading the translation, reading some of the footnotes. And again, I was not a reader, right? Like I had never really read a book at the time. So even like the books you're supposed to read in English class and stuff like that, I just read the clip notes and just got by. I had never read a single book. I read comic books, but like these other books like, you know, Tom Sawyer's Island and Tale of Two Cities and Charles Dickens. I didn't read a single one of those books, like throughout my entire high school. You know, it's still top of my class, but it shows you how bad the school system is. Education system is broken. But yeah, so I had not read. So it was difficult for me like reading and reading a different genre and reading a book. Like the Quran is nice. Then I started reading Sahih al-Bukhari and it was very challenging because I'm like, I'm reading it. I'm like, a lot of these hadith are like repetitive. Like why is he repeating it? Because if you don't know Bukhari, right? There's like 2,000 unique hadith in Bukhari, but it's 8,000 hadith and there's a lot of repeats. And then the chapters are like very fiqh based and all that. I understand that now. I didn't understand it when I was a junior in high school, right? So it's very confusing to me. Some things didn't make sense. I didn't understand. But I'm like, I want to learn what this is. So that's kind of like, I came across some different websites. I came across lectures of like Ahmad did that, debating like the missionaries and all that. I'm like, yes. So at that time I'm like, you know what? I think I'm happy to be Muslim. Like I want to be Muslim and I want to understand what's being said. But I didn't have any teachers. I didn't have any mentors. I didn't have any like somebody that I trusted. The Khudbas that we were attending, whenever we attended, they were like extremely boring. I couldn't relate to them. I didn't have a trust because we grew up with like this secular mentality of people who follow the religion, like the scholars of Islam. They're like backwards people. Like they don't understand it like the Molanas and stuff like that. They're either they're corrupt or they're backwards. They like come from a village. They don't understand it. They think the world is flooding. The earth is flat. Just the very backward mentality. So that's what I was raised with with my family and extended family. They like look down. They make fun of like Shui youth and Molanas and stuff like that. That's what I grew up. So we thought that like, these are people who cannot be trusted. The only thing I can trust now is if I'm trying to understand the religion, I have to read it on my own. I have to understand the translation, read it on my own, read Bukhadi on my own. And figure it out by myself. That's where I was at the time. Sounds like an impossible task for an 11th degree. It's a very, very difficult task. And a lot of DIY, you know, Islam kind of comes in. So that's when I'm like, you know what? A little bit arrogance comes into that like, you know, well now I'm going to start actually praying. So I decide, you know, I'm actually going to start praying. So up to that point, you're only praying Juma maybe Ramadan a little bit. You're not praying your five prayers regularly. Not even. Outside of Ramadan and Juma, there's no prayer. Very much, right? So now I'm like, I think I'm going to start praying. And I'm going to start doing this. I'm starting doing that. But then I'm like, but it's so important for me to understand what I'm saying and understand the message because like all my parents and other people around me, they don't even know what they're saying. So I decide, you know, I have no other mentors or something. I'm going to start praying in English. So I decide, you know what? I'm going to, I'm going to pray in English. And at least I know what I'm saying. You know, my parents have been praying for 40 years. You know, they don't know what a tahiyatul inay wasalawat means, right? So again, this is when you look back in retrospect, this is like a junior in high school, like trying to figure things out and understand. By the same time, there's a little bit of error. It's like, at least I'm understanding. You don't even understand what you're doing. Right. So I started praying on my own. So do you like memorize surat al-Fatiha in English? I memorize surat al-Fatiha in English. I memorize surat al-Fatiha in English. And the whole thing was done in English, right? So going through and just praying in English by myself, right? And, you know, well, not entirely by myself. So again, I was not practicing Muslim. So I had a girlfriend at the time. And I'm realizing this isn't it or not allowed at everything. And then I got so interested in Islam, I started making downloads to other people, right? So I was telling my best friend, Hey, man, after seeing the DDOT videos and something like, Islam is a true religion. You got accepted. I went to my Jewish friend. He's like a Russian Jew. I'm like, you know, you people, you think you're the chosen people and all that. You need to become Muslim. Islam is a true religion. You know, and then I told my girlfriend the same thing. And then SubhanAllah, she accepted Islam. Right. So yeah. So she becomes Muslim and then we're basically like praying together in English. It's like a DIY Islam, right? So like this was all I knew. I didn't have anyone to go to. I didn't have any, you know, e-moms to consult. I didn't trust the e-moms, right? So because that's what I was raised with. That was my skepticism that was there. So that continued for, for a while. Yeah. So the point you bring about trust resonates a lot because I think, like, how do you end up doing some very strange things? If you think that the people of knowledge are, you know, you found, we find ways to put them down, say their backwards or whatever. And then you end up. Exactly. Exactly. Because because then it's all about you figuring out everything on your own and you don't have any contact. There's no such thing as specialization. You become the only specialist that exists in the world. Right. So that's kind of what it was at the time. And then when I was reading the Hadith, a lot of Hadith were making sense to me. And I'm like, I'm not getting it. It kind of seems a little bit strange. So then I come across a website of a group called the submitters. This guy named Rashad Khalifa, right? Who basically rejects Hadith. And he's like, you know what? You should not accept Hadith at all. So I end up, you know, going through this. And he's also like trying to convince people, make Da'wah, like why people should accept Islam. And this and that. So I'm like, oh, he's good at making Da'wah. But he's like, he couldn't use Hadith for whatever reason. It's a long story, right? So, and he's like, we don't need to. In fact, accepting Hadith is like a type of shirk. And I'm like, oh, something else is wrong in the Muslim community. I detected one thing. Now I'm detecting something else. So I became basically put Bukhari away. And I'm like, I don't accept Hadith. I'm Quran only Muslim. It's too many volumes anyway, right? It's too many volumes anyway. I never got past the first volume. So I'm like, you know, forget that's too much reading. Focus on English or on myself, figure it out on my own. And we don't need Hadith either. So that's kind of, you know, where I was at at the time. And then I was like, you know, and my uncle came over and like, you know, when my parents found out that I don't accept Hadith, like they're like, oh no, how can you not accept Hadith? I'm like, why did you start caring about Islam? You didn't care. We didn't pray. You didn't care about anything else. But no, all of a sudden they don't accept Hadith. You're concerned. So they bring my uncle over and my uncle starts debating me about why I need to accept Hadith. And this guy's not practicing. This guy drinks alcohol. Right. This guy, not only does he drink alcohol, he justifies from the Quran. He goes, you know, you know, it's just, no. La Taqribu Salaat. La Taqribu Salaat wa Antim Sukkar. So he says, I drink after I do my Salaat. So I'm like, okay. So I'm like, the guy who drinks alcohol is going to come and give me a lecture about following Hadith. It just doesn't make sense. So it's very, it was very strange. It was like a very strange time and place to be. And then I like started going like, you know, going to interpret just everything according to the Quran, the English Quran that I have, right? And even like my girlfriend who accepts Islam, right? She starts wearing hijab. And I'm like, hijab done in the Quran? Why are you wearing this thing? You don't have to wear hijab. So I'm arguing with her. Why are you wearing hijab? Doesn't make sense, you know? So that was kind of my state. But at the same time, I'm going and making dow, I'm like a dow machine. I'm making dow with my friends, telling them all Islam is the truth, telling my teachers, you know, your religion is wrong. You need to follow the true message of Islam, et cetera, et cetera. This was high school. And again, there's no Muslims in my school. Right? I think there was like one Muslim in the whole school. And like, they were far from Islam. I think that sense, like when you're a teenager and you find out, oh, this one thing was wrong. Like they, you know, my parents taught me this thing and I found out that they were either wrong or lying to me or, you know, trying to protect me so they say something that wasn't true. And then you keep pulling at that thread. And then you start feeling like, well, if they were wrong about that, then they were wrong about this. And you start feeling like you can just by yourself decide. Exactly. It's like throwing out the baby with the bath water. Right? So like once you throw something out, you're like, well, that seems similar. I'm gonna throw that one out too. That seems similar. I'm gonna throw that. But you don't have any real process to follow. So how long did that phase last? So that phase lasted through junior year, senior year. And then when I went to university, that's when everything changed for me. So in my first, I think it was my first quarter of university. So I was at UCI. And then I just took an elective class at IBC just for the heck of it. I didn't even need the units or anything. So I took a philosophy class over there. And I was interested in philosophy, you know, because I, again, I had not read a book or anything like that. But I had encountered one book that my brother had left, like in my room or something like that. And I found it always very interesting. At this point, have you read the Koran? Yeah, I've been reading the Koran. I probably read the entire Koran in English. So that's probably the first 200, 300 Hadith in Bukhari several times trying to figure them out, couldn't figure them out. So I go into this philosophy class. And I didn't realize that my teachers undercover hardcore atheists, right? Didn't realize that, didn't recognize that. And it's a class called critical thinking. So we had a book called How to Think About Weird Things. And I remember very clearly, like that day, he starts explaining. He's like, you know what? People have very weird backwards beliefs in America. They believe in all sorts of weird superstitions and everything like that. And I'm like, oh yeah, superstition. I know a lot of people like that in the Muslim community. Every time somebody gets sick, they're like, oh, there must be some jinn when inside them or something like that. Anytime something happens, they're always going to attribute something. And I was always skeptical about these things, right? So then he starts sharing statistics about America. And it just seems scientific, right? It's like statistics. There's numbers. They see how, you know, what people are really believing. So they're like, you know, that this many percentage of people in America, they still believe in like unlucky numbers and stuff like that. I'm like, so ridiculous, you know? They believe like there's no 13th floor, right? In elevators and stuff. I'm like, these people still believe in this stuff, like, you know? And then they believe like a black cat walks in front of you. You break a mirror. You're going to get seven years of bad luck. And I was always, these things always bothered me. I'm like, why do people believe in this stuff still? Like, you know, we live in an age of, you know, science and advancement and the scientism, you know, comes in. And then they start continuing. They're like, you know, this many percentage of people, they still believe in like fairies. I'm like, fairies from like, like Tinkerbell from like Peter Pan, the movies that I watched. And I'm like, people actually believe like that's real. And then, and then they're like, you know, this many percentage of people and look at the wording. They still believe in angels. And then I'm getting confused. I'm like, wait a minute, but I'm a Muslim. Like, I believe in angels too, right? Like it's in the Quran. So I'm like, now I'm getting a little bit confused. And then at the end he goes, and this many people, percentage of people, they still believe in God. And like, for me, that was a big like statement. Like he's like still believe because he's basically tying them all together and saying, you know what, these all superstitions are in the same category. So I'm like, you know, what's this guy saying? How could he say something like this? So then he asked a class like 50 students in the class because how many of you still believe in God? And I raised my hand. I'm like, yeah. And I look around at the room and I see that there's only one other guy who raised his hand. And that one other guy is like the most annoying Christian missionary that like everybody hates in the entire school. I hated the guy. Everyone hates this guy, right? And I look at this guy and I look around the whole classroom and I'm just like, we're the only two people who still believe in God. You still believe in God. Still believe in God. Like we're backwards. Like we haven't caught up yet, right? Like something is wrong with us. And then like this was like a defining, this is like a breaking moment for me. And I started looking at the guy and I'm like, like I started having an identity crisis. I'm like, who am I? Am I like this guy? I can't see it in myself. Am I like the annoying messed up weird guy? Like what has happened to me? And that really just like led me down. That's like the start of doubt about Islam in my mind. And that just really like led me down the completely wrong path. It's really interesting because it wasn't like the problem of evil or it wasn't some philosophical argument about atheism. It was this presentation of, you know, humanity is progressing towards what? Towards, you know, advancements in science and technology and eradication of superstition and false beliefs. So we no longer believe in fairies. We no longer believe in angels. And we no longer believe in God because those are, you know, what's silly backwards. So there's kind of the framing of modernity is what really. Yeah. That's what triggered it. That's what pushed me, you know. And then the arguments came afterwards. So what I did was I did what some Muslims do and the mistake that they make. And I'm like, you know what, I was getting shaken and then I'm like, no, I'm going to I'm going to get this guy. I'm going to become Ahmadidat against this guy, right? So I'm going to come back. I'm going to debate this professor. I'm going to show him. I'm going to prove to him that God exists. So I go to Barnes and Noble bookstore and again, remember, I don't read books. I've never, I've never read an entire book outside of like the Quran in English in my entire life. So I go to the bookstore and I'm like, okay, show me the atheism section. You know, and they're like, this is the section over there. So I buy a book. It's called Critiques of God. And it's basically the best arguments made by the most prominent atheists of why you shouldn't believe in God. And I'm like, I'm going to read this book and I'm going to refute argument point by point. I'm going to come back and I'm going to debate the professor. I'm going to prove to him that he's wrong. And then the class bothered me so much. I'm like, I'm going to get this guy. And you know, when I look back on it, it's a mistake that a lot of people make. The mistake is that they assume that they have such a good understanding of Islam already that they can go and read something else and they have more than enough knowledge to go and respond to all of these arguments that are very sophisticated, very developed. These are like people who've been working on the issue for like 40 years, 50 years, you know, these are like the top atheists like, you know, philosophers in the world, you know, one of them was Antony Flu. I remember that's one of the articles that I started out with reading. Interestingly, he came back. He changed his mind later on before he died in like after me in 2008. And he changed his mind. It's like, I'm not an atheist anymore. I believe in God, you know. But outside of that, like these are like very well developed people. Philosophy is not my subject. I was computer science major. This book didn't have any pictures. So it wasn't a comic book. It was really difficult to read. It was very sophisticated, complicated arguments. So I'm like, you know what? I'm going to prove this guy. So I bought the book. I took it home and I kept on trying to read it. I'm sitting there reading again and reading again. I'm listening to the arguments. And eventually I'm like, I don't have any response for these things. I don't have anyone to ask either. It's a DIY. I've got to figure it out on my own. And I don't know how to respond. There's no good reason. Like there's nothing I know how to respond to any of these arguments. So eventually I start flipping through different chapters and I'm like, maybe there's another one that I can respond to every argument that they're making. I'm like, this seems to make sense. And this just broke down my whole worldview. And I'm like, I don't even know why I believe in God anymore. So that really took me down the path of atheism. And I'm like, you know what? This is what makes sense. This is the book that I'm going to follow for my own like belief. And I left Islam and became atheists. So it was like a very conscious definitive decision. Like you felt like that's it. I'm no longer believe in Islam. Yeah. Because it was in fact the introduction to the book. It defines two types of atheists. They call and they're like making fun of one group. There's a village atheist who's just like lazy, you know, they don't want to do it. They don't want to think hard about things and they don't want to, you know, they grew up in some religion or whatever it is. And they're just like, I just want to enjoy my life and not care about the reason for believing what I believe. That's why I tried to understand the Koran. I got motivated, you know, later on in like junior year and all that. So and then they goes, no, but then there's the philosophical, intellectual atheists and they have writings about Bertrand Russell, you know, famous atheist philosopher about, you know, how you're supposed to have purpose and what you believe and how most people don't know what atheism is. So I was exposed to not just arguments against God, but the book that I had bought, you know, happened to be a book that is basically looking at atheism as a system, a religion in and of itself. So because that was the introduction, I'm sitting there reading and struggling through this, that already gave me a potential option to choose from. And that's the option that I chose. So before you read this book, you're praying five times a day? Praying five times a day. Oh, I mean, you know, in English. Closer in English? In English still. Yeah, yeah. In English with my girlfriend, sometimes while driving, not a safe thing to do. And I'm like, Allah will accept, you know, I'm late for school. I started praying Fajr too, but I'm like, you know, I was late, you know, I drive to school. I've been driving to school, like high school, I had a car. And I'm like, you know what, Allah will understand, you know, at least I'm putting in the effort, you know. My parents don't even pray Fajr. You know, none of my friends, no one else prays to it. So I'm like, Allah will accept, you know. So I'm sitting there driving to school, trying to bring my request before my Tesla autopilot, right? And like doing my recourse and my sujood and everything with the emotions and everything like that. That was, that was, that was my understanding of this. I'm sorry. This is what I'm doing up until this point. So once you come to the, to that point where you start to, you know, not believe in God, do you stop, do you stop those practices that you've built up over at this point? Two, three years? Completely. Completely stop everything. Completely. You know, I think that's something that's scary to, you know, me and everyone else to think that like something could, could, could shake. And it sounds like you didn't really have like a foundation to fall back on. Like somebody to, Yeah. Because you really need a mentor at that point. Yeah. Right. Yeah. So it was, it was an intellectual crisis. It was a cultural crisis, you know, I had grown up with. And right around the same moment I broke up with my girlfriend too. So it's like an emotional internal crisis too. So when you don't have, when you're not processing all of this stuff going on in the right way, you could just go down any path, right? And then I just moved into the dorms. I'm finally away from my parent, even though they have 20 minutes away. I'm like, I'm, I need my freedom. I need to live in the dorms. I lived in Middlebury. You know, UCI. So I was living in the dorms. But again, I have no Muslim friends, all non-Muslim friends. I don't even like know any Muslims outside of the cultural parties that we had to go to when we were young. But later on, I don't have to interact with any Muslim. So it's all non-Muslims around me. No connection with, with anybody else. So this is kind of what ends up happening. I'm just curious how your emotional state was like when that happened. Like, did you feel like, did it make you a, were you a more happy person after you made this or less happy? Was it more turmoil? Like, how were you feeling internally when you were very convinced of God to the point that you're going out and converting your girlfriend and now you're saying, no, I don't even believe in God anymore. So it was a mix of two things. One of them was, well, now I'm free. I don't need to follow any rules. I could do whatever I want. So it's like, you know, imagine you're a teenager and you're in college for the first time and like finally my parents are not breathing down my neck and watching everything that I'm doing. I'm living my life of freedom and I can, you know, be outside the house. So I'm like, now I have a second layer of freedom. I'm not bound by any rules. I could do whatever I want. Right? So I don't have any rules to follow or anything. If this is not true, then what's the point of following the rules? So on that one sense, I was like, I felt like freedom. On the second thing, I'm like, I invested so much time and effort into like making down when I was so wrong. And like, how could I have made such a big mistake? So like, there was some level of turmoil there, but I can't remember all the thoughts that were going through my mind, you know? Yeah. So at this, you've presumably finished that class in philosophy. Yeah. And how long did you stay in that state before? I stayed in that state probably over a year. And I was just living my own life. I remember walking like down, you know, UCI ring road, you know, and I see like some like Muslim guy comes up and he looks at me and he's like, you know, you look like you're Muslim. I'm like, yeah, my parents are. He's like, you want to join the Muslim Student Union? I'm like, no way. I don't want to have anything to do with you guys. I'm not into the culture. I don't have any Muslim friends. And so he's like, I'm like, I don't want to have anything to do with that. And he goes, okay, do you want to join the Pakistani Student Association? I'm like, absolutely not. I don't want to. No, not at all. And it's funny. You know who that was who was trying to recruit me? And right away, it was very funny. So, so this basically was funny about it is two years later, I'm giving the hotba at UCI and the guy sitting in the audience and he comes to me afterwards he goes, remember when I tried to recruit you for the MSU? And you're like, I don't want to have anything to do with these people. And now you're giving the hotba, you know. So somehow how things change, right? So, um, yeah, I just I was just staying. Oh, I didn't want to have anything to do with any Muslims, any Pakistanis, any cultural thing. Just I just wanted to just do my own thing. And that's what I was doing. I was just doing my own thing. What about you? I'm curious about your girlfriend or ex-girlfriend. So I didn't I didn't keep it. I didn't keep directly in touch with her. Um, she emailed me like a year later and then like three years later or something like that. So she actually had remained Muslim. Uh, but I I disconnected like contact with her. So, yeah, Insha'Allah, as you just still you'll find it there for you. Insha'Allah. Um, so I guess we'll take take a pause here for a minute to maybe reflect on for all the because I say for myself and also my kids are very young, but I I think that's something we all worry about is like, could could could could our stand be so weak or amenable to an attack like that just from, you know, philosophy course in college or I thought like that. So I guess now yourself and having your own kids and stuff like what's the advice you might give to to a, you know, a kid in high school or in college who is kind of going out for the first time and is going to encounter these or probably does encounter them all the time. Now you see it on YouTube or whatever the apps are now. So what would be your suggestion or advice to avoid that situation? Yes, I would say two things. Number one is it's very important to have a strong foundation, right? A strong foundation of real correct Islamic knowledge that is peer reviewed, right? Peer reviewed, meaning that there are people who are experts who study Islam properly and there's a right way to study Islam. There's a wrong way to study Islam, which is what I was doing. You have to have some level of respect or trust for people who are specialists in the field, right? People who are established and, you know, establishing that foundation is one of the best things you can do at a young age. So that would be my first advice is, you know, you have to really have a foundation if you want to survive, you know, in a world where your religion is going to be challenged, right? And wherever you are, it's going to be challenged at some level. And the second thing I would say is don't think that classes that you take are not going to challenge your Islam, right? So like, if you go into a Christian school, people generally understand that, like, you know, they tell their kids, they're like, you know, okay, you're walking into a Christian school. They're going to be teaching you the Bible and Christian teachings, but make sure you don't start worshiping Jesus and don't get baptized and don't do this and don't do that. And it's very clear because it's a Christian school. I mean, that's, maybe it's a missionary Christian school. You at least have an understanding that they have a religion that they're going to be coming to present. I think the biggest mistake that people make is they think that the secular university is just a neutral ground of just teaching sciences and knowledge. We're just going to teach you math. We're just going to teach you history. We're going to teach you anthropology about how human society is, you know, developed and all that. And what they don't realize is that there is an underlying religion of secular liberalism, which is like a religion in and of itself, that that subject is going to be talked through. And one of the reasons, you know, one of the scholars, I think he was Dr. Sherman Jackson, he said it really well. He said one of the reasons why it's so dangerous and why it's so powerful is because people don't recognize it as being a belief system. He talks about it. He says it's very much like race. He goes, one of the reasons why like white supremacy is so hard to see is because it feels invisible because it's the dominant narrative. So when you have like the racism, you can't tell it's overt racism because that's structural racism. It's hard to detect. So he says the same thing about secular liberalism. People don't get that. So some subjects are like a little bit safer. You walk into any of the hard sciences, right? How much can your math teacher really insert in there? There's not that much that they can do even though there's still underlying philosophy, right? But when you walk into a subject like philosophy or anthropology or what else? Even some types of history or psychology, there is an underlying belief system that is going to be taught through. So my advice to people is unless you have a very strong Islamic foundation, which I would say 99.9% of Muslims do not have by the time they hit university, they should not be taking those classes. They really should not be taking those classes. They should choose things which are unlikely to challenge you or they need to be simultaneously checking in with the mentor in terms of what they're studying. Even if you were to take an Islam 101 class, it's the absolute worst thing you could do for your Imam because the way that it's going to be taught in a secular setting, it's going to be taught from a lens, like from a frame, where it's going to make you confused and challenge a lot of your ideas. And you're like, yeah, but I'm Muslim. I know my religion. That's a false understanding. You know your religion at a third grade Sunday school level. You don't know your religion at a college level. So you're taking a class at a college level, which is going to challenge you in certain aspects. And you don't know how to respond. You're not trained to respond. So there's a whole, like, you know, Yakin Institute does a great job of explaining this phenomenon. There's a paper called Modern Pathways to Doubt by Yusuf Shahoud, who talks about how, you know, this is one of the common reasons why Muslims start having doubts is because their Islamic education is so elementary. And then any other education they come across, it's sophisticated. Doesn't mean it's right. It's just sophisticated. So you're comparing, like, a third grade education to college level education. You're like, let me compare the ideas because I know both. Yeah, but you're comparing, like, a third grade level to a college level. You're bringing a knife to a gunfight. Exactly. Exactly. And that's what I advise people. I'm like, understand what your real level really is and understand what you're up against. But many people, they don't understand what you're up against. They don't have an understanding of what's really taking place. Yeah, I think the point you made about the insidiousness of it is very deep. I was mentioning to you before that, I feel like I didn't reflect, you know, all throughout medical school, I didn't really reflect on the philosophy of medicine or what was the underlying philosophy of my teachers or the books or my curriculum. And it wasn't until I was in residency where I started to think, like, oh, there's a mechanistic, you know, materialistic, philosophy underpinning all these things. And I don't believe that. I actually believe that Allah ﷻ is the one who creates Shifa. He's the one who heals not a physician or not a pill or anything else like that. But if you're learning that if you're kind of being imbued or indoctrinated with that philosophy without, and even the teachers don't know that it's like the air you breathe. Yeah, exactly. You know, and we got to breathe Tawheed. Exactly. So it can be very, it can be very challenging in that way. Yeah. So, so you had that, you know, experience and what was it that sort of, what was the next major thing that shook your belief or helped me think about God again in a deeper way? Yeah, so I mean, then I started getting into the, like, a wrong crowd, right? So again, I'm around non-Muslims anyways, but I was kind of like a little bit more in the nerd crowd, you know, in high school and stuff. So then I start getting into, like, the non-nerd crowd and they started doing worse things. So they started going to like night clubs, we started going to like raves, like desert, like electronic, you know, parties and stuff like that. And then eventually some of my friends they get me into like street racing. So I was never really into cars or anything like that. I knew like exotic cars, Lamborghinis, Ferraris, all that stuff. But I was never into like racing cars or like, I didn't even know what like, torque and I just thought the cars look cool when I was young, when I was a kid or whatever. But these guys they're like, you know what, no, no, it's really cool. This is all before like, even before like fast and furious movie came out like the first one or whatever. So I'm like, okay, these guys are doing it. They're, you know, let me, let me go and experience a different type of life now because, you know, I don't have to deal with all this other stuff. And I didn't tell my parents anything about what's going on with me or anything like that. So I started getting into street racing with them, which is a very foolish thing to do by the way. Especially like when you're going very fast, especially on the freeway, you're going, you know, like you could literally like, you can kill someone in like the blink of it, like in a flash of a second, right? Somebody's crossing the street or something like that. You're going at such a high speed, you could easily kill somebody. So I get into street racing and then I'm, you know, getting into like different music styles and going to raves and all that stuff. And you know, around that time, I was, I was starting to get agitated with myself. I'm like, you know, I know what I'm doing is really stupid. Like, and I didn't feel good about it. And I'm like, but it's kind of like an adrenaline rush and like peer pressure, like you want to be in that group and all that stuff. So I start to think I'm like, you know, this is not even fun hanging out with these people. Like they're making dumb jokes. There's no substance here. I'm doing dangerous things. Why am I doing this? So I'm kind of like in my mind, like something's going on, but I just keep on in a Shehua and desire, you just keep on moving forward. So you fast forward like about a year or so. And I remember for some reason I was at home and I was visiting my parents and my dad had given me like a lot of money to invest in the stock market because he knew like I was good with technology, you know, the computer kid and all that stuff. So I was investing in E-Trade and stuff like that. So I did this with a tech boom at the time. So I wake up in the morning, it was like on Friday, I wake up on Friday morning and open up my E-Trade account and I was trading on margin as well. You're not supposed to do in Islam. So I invested in Juniper Networks and there was a massive stock market crash. And I lost like half my portfolio. I lost like 10, $20,000, right? Now imagine, you know, you're a freshman or you're a sophomore in college. You know, and this is not even my, my dad gave me this money, right? So it's like I'm extremely stressed out. I'm like, this is like the worst day of my life. I can't believe this is happening. I don't know if it's going to recover. I'm about to get a margin call from E-Trade. They're going to call me and they're going to say, you have to deposit more money into your account otherwise we're going to shut your account down. So I'm like, I don't even have any more money. How am I going to explain this to my father? I'm going to be in really big trouble. This is a big problem. Then my mom, she pages me because we have like a really big house, right? A wealthy family. So she like pages me on the intercom and she's like, you know, son, you know, beta, like, can you take out the trash? I'm like, really? You know what I mean? It's like, like we grew up very spoiled, right? We never took out the trash. So like of all the days, of all the days when we take out the trash, today had to be the day that you want me to get up and take out the trash. I was like, no, I'm not taking it out. So I was really upset and I'm just like really furious and I'm just upset and I get into like the argument with my mom. And the thing is, again, I've been planning for a while now that like I already have some money. I have some other backup money saved up. I just, I don't want, like I said, I don't want to have anything to do with Muslims. I don't want to have anything to do with like disease or cultural people or whatever. And I decided like, you know what, very soon one day I'm going to run away from home and I don't ever need to be like with my family or my parents or anything. We didn't have the best family that I was growing up. So I've been kind of thinking about this for a while and at that moment when the stock market crashed and then, you know, argument with mom and everything like that, I'm like, I was just so mad and I'm like, that's it, I'm done. I'm out of here and I know that my dad had given me a safe deposit key which had like $30,000 in it and he's like, in case something happens to the family because he always looked at me as a responsible kid, you know, my brother was not on the other spectrum. So it's like, if something happens to the family, here's a stash of money. You take care of the family and this and that. So I'm like, this is my opportunity. I'm out of here, right? So I go, I just get some clothes. I'm going to get into my car, right? And my dad got me like a nice Lexus IS 300, like, you know, which I was racing at the time, right? It's like just the year that it came out was like a really hot car. He had to pay like over sticker just to get it and everything. So I'm like, that's it. I'm done. I'm running away from home. I'm never going to see my family again. No Islam, no culture, no family. I'm going to start my own life from scratch. I'll eventually finish my computer science degree. I'll become a programmer and just move on and live my life like any other American and just live the American dream and do whatever I want. So I go and I'm like, I'm just furious, right? So I get in my car and I'm my racer. I'm like, you know, I'm going to speed out, reverse out and then I'm just going to like go down the road super fast. So I put in reverse and I'm about to pull out and I realized that somebody parked behind me and I can't even get out, right? On that note, we're going to take a break. And then we'll continue. The story gets better. I've heard it before. So we'll resume after a shot. Insha'Allah. All right. In the name of Allah, the most Gracious, the most Merciful. Peace be upon you. Peace be upon you. Peace be upon you. Before I know we left on the cliffhanger, before we resume, I wanted to just emphasize one point that you've mentioned, I think a few times now, which is part of, you know, one core part or it seems to me, correct me if I'm wrong, one core part of what seems to go wrong is that there's no person, there's no mentor to kind of help you when you hit a wall and you can't figure things out by yourself. There's nobody, there's no person. And one of the reasons for that it seems is that there's a prominent rhetoric in the community and I've heard it growing up and I still hear it, which is the scholars are either dharma or either corrupt or they're backwards, quote unquote, or they're not the brightest, you know, different kinds of things are said to put down the scholars of the Sam. And not in a specific way, like this one person is like that, but in a broad way, in a way to repeat the dharma and when you're disconnected from that, dharma are the inheritors of the prophets, then you're cut off from the inheritance of the tradition of our prophet, as-salaam. And you know, that's like the deep way because obviously they connect us to the most important thing about life, the iman itself and dunya na. But you know, I was reflecting on it like that kind of, when you cut down authority in that way in any field, it doesn't work. In any field, I mean, if you're hyper critical of all doctors out there, the industry of medicine, you're not going to go to them. You'll go to like some quack doctor, you know, or like do some weird stuff to you or something like that. This is the problem in every field. And also you have to recognize the asymmetry, right? So like, for example, even if you're talking to a doctor who's not, who you disagree with, you're not really in a position, it's like if I have a plumber come and the plumber tells me you have to fix this problem, it's going to cost you $5,000. And I don't think about plumbing. You're not really in a position to investigate their claim if you don't know anything about the subject matter. Exactly, exactly. And so I think that's one of the, one of the reasons that you kind of end up in these kinds of problems is you're being cut off progressively from the people who would be able to help you. And you question the whole field and that's really the problem, you know? I think the biggest problem is people have like a trauma response. They've had maybe a traumatic experience with one, you know, religious person in their life or maybe one or two or whatever it is. But then what they did was they generalized and said all people in this field are exactly the same way. So this doesn't mean that every single person in the field is going to be like an angel or they're going to be like an amazing master scholar and they can answer all your questions for you. But just because you've had one or two negative experiences, it doesn't mean you judge the entire field. And definitely, yeah, that plays a big role, like you said. And also, correct me, but one of the ways that I think about it is like part of our love for the Prophet Muhammad, our love for his son is to love the people who carry it in their hearts and who dedicate their lives to studying it. So even if I'm not a scholar or a person of knowledge, at least I can do is love the people who are. It doesn't mean that I'm lying to any mistakes they make or anything like that. But just in general, there should be love in the hearts of the believer for the scholars. Absolutely. And that's because that's an extension of your love for the Book of Allah, an extension of your love for the son of the Prophet Muhammad. Because whoever preserves it, whoever specializes in it, that's part of its understanding, its existence. We wouldn't have it otherwise, right? So yeah, it absolutely is. Absolutely is. All right. So now we're going to bring everyone back. We are... Is this your freshman? Your second sophomore year of college? Sophomore year of college. Sophomore year of college? Yes. This professor unfortunately took you down the path of atheism in the book that you read and now the dot com bust? Was that what lost half of your stock portfolio? If you look at the Juniper Networks, if you look at the graph of like the 20, you actually went back and checked it. If you look at the graph, it's like absolute peak. It's never recovered until then. You can still pinpoint the day that it happened. So the stocks go down? Yep. Mom asks you to take out the trash? Yep. You try to peel out in your Lexus? Yep. But there's something blocking me. There's something blocking me. So it turns out my mom and again, they were not very practicing, but like they're starting to practice a little bit. So my mom decided to invite some women over to have like a little tafsir halaqa inside their house. So some auntie parked behind me. So I'm like, okay. So I run in the house and I'm super mad. Now I'm even more mad. And I remember I go and I yell at the aunties. I'm like, who parked behind my car? Go move your car right now. I'm like, this is unacceptable. And like, you know, even in like the desi culture and all that. So I basically yell in the middle of a tafsir class. And the auntie like, he's like, I'm so sorry. You know, I parked behind you. I didn't know that you needed to leave. So she moves her car and everything like that. And it's funny because this auntie, you know, sometimes she, she comes to me after my hodba. She's like, do you remember me? What? Who are you? You're the one who yelled at me. The day you were running away from home. I'm that auntie. And she's like, I forgive you. Don't worry. So I'm like, I'm the last one. You're the humbling. Yes, indeed. So then I'm like, okay. You know, so she moves her car. I pull out. I jump on the freeway. And I decided I'm running away from home. So I said, where should I go? So you know what? I just go like south either towards San Diego. Maybe I'll spend the night in a hotel in San Diego or I'll cross over the border and just go to Mexico. So like my parents can't find me. And I'll just disappear for a while. And then I'll come back and, you know, get the rest of the money that I need. And I'm just going to live my own life and just do whatever I want. I'll figure out the rest later, you know? All I need to do is finish my computer science degree. I'll become a programmer, you know, get a job in like Silicon Valley or something like that. And it disappeared. Nobody needs to, you know, know where I am. Nobody needs to even know that I existed. You know, they can forget about all that. So that was the plan. And then I get on the freeway and I start driving. And I'm listening to like, you know, music that just makes you even more mad. Because at that time I was listening to electronic music, but there was listening also to like my old rock songs, right? So I was listening to like Blink 182. Like one of the songs is called, what was it called? I even forget the names like something generation. It's basically about how it's all your parents fault. Like they caused all the problems in the world, you know? And like, you know, and then there was like another group that I used to listen to called Green Day. And they have like a song called like, I can't wait until mom and dad die and I'm going to get their inheritance, right? And then like it's just like, that's the kind of music that, you know, a lot of people listen to, they don't really pay attention to it. But I'm someone who like really focuses on the lyrics, right? So some people internalize the lyrics more than others. So I was like, the lyrics that I understood I was internalizing, so I'm sitting there getting more mad. You know, I'm like, I'm out of here. I'm done with all of this, you know? And I'm driving. And then like by the time I get to like ocean side, it's been like 45 minutes, maybe an hour. I'm like on my way halfway to like San Diego. And then all of a sudden 300 ZX twin turbo, you know, cuts in front of me and gives me the racing signal, right? And I'm like, oh man, today, you know, of all days that you want to race, like I was driving normal. I was driving fine. I was, it was fairly calm. I was mad, but I'm like, I'm out of here. You know, I'm like escaping. And I'm like, I just get even more mad because the racing signal is when you cut in front of someone, you slam your brakes to make the person more agitated. And then you give the emergency hazards. And then you're like, it means we want to challenge you to a race. So I didn't expect like today, I'm like, today of all days, like, you know, you're messing with the wrong guy. Like really. So I'm just like furious and I'm like, this guy's as crazy as I am. I didn't realize that. So, so I said, okay, let's do it. So we start going and we start racing down the freeway on the five south freeway. And it's, you know, very foolish thing to do. It's not a straight freeway. It's got a lot of curves and everything. And we're just going extremely fast. And I forget in the moment that a Lexus IS 300 is not a sports car. It's called a sports coupe, but it has a luxury suspension because it's a Lexus and a 300 ZX twin turbo is a sports car. It's got a stiff suspension. It's got, you know, 310, 320 horsepower twin turbo. So the guy is like almost beating me, but I'm like, I cannot let this guy beat me. No matter what, I'm just going to go complete crazy mode and just beat this guy. So in order to do that, I end up like turning in like two lanes or three lanes over, like being a really like ridiculous move. And my car spins out of control on the freeway, right? Like going super fast, right? And it spins out of control, hits three other cars, and then hits center divided. My car is completely total, frame damage, salvage title, but I walk out of the accident unscathed. Nothing happened to me, right? So I get out of there and, you know, the police come like the same day or the next day. I basically, it's like kind of a blur. I'm not sure what's going on. And the policeman comes and he's like, listen kid, I know how fast you were going. I mean, there's no way he could have known how fast. There's going to be the witness reports. You were going this fast and in California, if you're going over a hundred miles an hour and you do something like this, it could be deemed as attempted manslaughter. So he's like, I'm going to make sure you go to jail because you don't, you should not be on the streets. You're a danger to society. So I'm just like, what am I going to do? You know, my father's wealthy and like that. Let's talk to that, you know, get your team of lawyer, like, you know, watching movies, get the whole team of lawyers and like you can save me. He's like, I already talked to the police. There's, there's nothing we can do. Like there's nothing to argue about. This case now is over to the police. And you might actually be going to jail. And now I'm just like freaking out, you know, because I've watched movies, you know, like what happens in jail, you know, I'm not like a gang member or something like that. I don't know what's going to happen. Someone's going to like get a blade. They're going to like cut me if I, you know, they're going to do some weird stuff to me in prison. So I'm like, my life is over. All my fun is over. This is the worst run away from home attempt like ever. You know, so the whole thing is destroyed. My car is destroyed. My stock market is gone. My counselor gone and I have to go back home now on top of this and like I'm stuck at home. I don't even, I can't even escape again. This is like the worst thing ever. Right. So I'm sitting there in this moment and I'm like, and I'm going to go to jail. And it was a very like high probability that I was going to go to jail. So then in that moment, I'm just thinking like, there's nothing I can do and nobody can help me. So what should I do? And then I remember like the little about Islam that I had like read on some of these websites and even the submitter websites and all that. I remember like, you know, I have nobody else to turn to. So I said, you know what? I'm just going to make dua. So I go and make dua and then I start thinking about it, but I'm an atheist. Why am I making dua? So I was like, how am I going to make this dua? So then I sit down and I'm like, you know what? I'm like, I said something along the lines of like, you know, Allah, I don't even know if you really exist or not. You know, I'm not sure if you, is it like the worst dua ever by the way? So I'm like, Allah, I don't even know if you exist, but you know what? If you exist and if you save me from this, if you get me out of the situation, then I'm going to, and then I start thinking, I'm like, what am I going to do? Like if I say conditional dua, you're not supposed to make conditional dua with Allah anyways, but I'm like, what promise am I going to make to Allah? And I'm being like very cautious. I still have the skeptical atheist in me. So I'm like, you know what? If you get me out of this and if I'm saved from this, then I promise that I will try my best to find out whether you really exist or not. So this was the dua. So I just want to make sure I understand this. If he saves you, then you'll try to find out if the person, if the being that saves you exists or not. That's right. So this is, this is, and this is the fitra coming back. You know, it's coming back in you, but you're still just extra cautious and careful and all this stuff. So that's what, that was my dua basically. A few days passed. I don't, I don't even, I was in depression. I was in my room. I wouldn't leave my room. My friends are trying to come and see me talk to me. I don't want to see anyone. I don't want to meet anyone like I'm just in a horrible state. Turns out finally the charges were, nobody pressed charges. The police department dropped the charges. They decided not to prosecute as well. Because no, everyone else dropped the charges. Nobody got injured or hurt or anything like that. And I'm like, I'm not going to jail. I didn't say Alhamdulillah, but like I was like, yes, like this is awesome. This is great. And then came the temptation. And the temptation was it's like, but I made this promise. Like, am I going to stick to this promise or do I just go back and say, oh, this was the weak emotional side of me when I did this. And now I just need to go back to my rational, skeptical self and forget all, I was just in a state of weakness. It's all a coincidence. Okay. I didn't go to jail. Now let me just go back to my normal lifestyle and everything. And I decided, you know what, I said, I should be at least true to my promise. You know, if I'm not true to my promise, I'm not true to myself. What kind of person am I? So I decided, you know what, this is the one promise like in my life. I'm going to take very serious and I'm going to keep. So I'm like, I'm going to try to put in effort. Now I'm going to make some changes in my life to redo, you know, redo the search because I kind of, I felt like I had not given it the proper, you know, research. So I'm like, and I don't know where to go. And I don't know where to start. So I said, you know, okay, I'm going to, I'm going to start by reevaluating all the atheist arguments that I came across. So I went back to that same book and I'm like, let me go and start reading this book again. Think about it a little bit more carefully. I dropped out of UCI and I decided I'm going to go to a library and I'm just going to start reading books to try and figure this out. Again, I have no mentors. I have no one else to go to. So I dropped out of UCI, but I kept going to UCI library every single morning. So I would go when the library opens and I would stay there the whole day until the library closes, right? And I like the old library, because they felt more like a library, but then they close early compared to the science library. So now we go to the bioscience library. After this library closes, I would stay like till 8 p.m. over there and then I would come back home. So I did that for several months and I went into the philosophy section. I went into the atheism section and I'm like, let me try to see if there's, you know, any answers to these things. So I started going in there and eventually, you know, over time I'm reading books. I'm reading other things. And I come to the conclusion, I'm like, there are arguments and there are responses to believe in God. And I didn't recognize that there was these responses to these things. Eventually after a long period of time, I make a conclusion. I'm like, you know what? I made a mistake in my atheism and there are good responses and I not consider those responses properly. So I'm like, I'm more open to the idea that like there are good reasons to believe in God as well. Around the same time, I have no car. I'm not able to go anywhere. So my dad is like, you're going to start coming to Kutba with me, you know? How are you getting to UCI every day? So I was using an old car. So I did have a car, right? I had a car, but like not my nice car and everything. And my parents were watching where I'm going. Like they're very careful. They drained all my bank accounts. Stock market is clear. This guy is never going to be able to run away again. We got him under like tight control now. So it's not happening. He can go to UCI. We know exactly where he is. He's going to call when he gets to the library and he's going to come right back. And they were very, very upset that I dropped out of school. They're like, you know, why what, you know, like the dream of every like, you know, immigrant parent is like, you know, your kids go to school and they get a good degree and all that stuff. So for them, they were very, very upset. And I'm like, I'm in depression. Like I need to work this out. I need to resolve this somehow. So they're like, okay, fine, but we'll give you some space and we'll give you some time to do this. So then my dad starts taking me and I'm still working. I'm working part-time for him in his business. So he starts taking me to a place to like listen to the Chodba, like for Jema prayer. So I'm like, okay, I need to go. I don't really have much of a choice with him. You know, I'm in trouble now. I failed attempt. So he starts going to a different Masjid that he used to go to. And usually I would never pay attention to anything in the Chodba or anything like that. So I started going to this new place. And I start to listen to the Chodba. And like for the first time, there's like a Khatib. That's like a little bit intellectual. And he starts like saying some interesting things. And I'm listening. I'm like, hey, this is not like the, the backwards, you know, like Khatib who like thinks the earth is flat and all this. Like this guy's kind of clever. So it started resonating with me. Like he's like the way he would deliver the Chodba. I wasn't still fully paying attention, but I was focusing more on the guy. I'm like, it was kind of recalibrating something. Well, this guy's pretty, he's pretty interesting. And he seems to be smart. So I started like trying to hang up, like listen to, listen in on like the conversations that he's having. I would come and ask him some random weird questions, like afterwards. And I started to gain a sense of respect for him. It's like the first person, like I started thinking like, hey, I actually have respect for like another Muslim, right? Who is like giving a Chodba. But this was a really big turning point for me. Like, and I didn't recognize it was a turning point because I'm reading number one. And then I'm being open to this idea of, you know, somebody else who's like clever, intelligent, giving like a good lecture and all that stuff. So around, that's kind of what it happens. And then one day I'm sitting there and somebody comes and asks him a question about philosophy. And I'm just like in the back, like listening from the corner. I'm like, wait a minute. Did he just say philosophy? Like, wait, there's like a Muslim guy who knows about philosophy. I'm like, this is my subject, right? This is what kind of took me away from Islam in the first place. So I'm like, I get very interested. I'm listening in. I'm like, hmm. And the guy responds and he says, you know, Imam Razali a thousand years ago, you know, he refuted the philosophers. He starts talking about a book and all that stuff. And I'm like, whoa, wait a minute. There's an Imam who like refuted and like made arguments and points against like the philosophers. That seems really interesting. So I like get into the conversation. I'm like, you know, can you tell me more? He's like, yeah, you know, there's a guy Imam Razali lived a thousand years ago and he went to like, you know, this, you know, he was in Madrasa Nilamia and all this stuff and he wrote a book against the philosophers like disproving the arguments about why you didn't believe in God and all that. I'm like, I didn't know that. Like that's amazing. So immediately like Amazon had just like launched recently, right? This is like new. So I go on amazon.com and I'm like, I'm going to go and buy those books. I'm going to read those books. And he told me he's like, no, no. These books are not for you. These books are not at your levels. You shouldn't be reading this stuff. You know, so I'm like, you know, I'm the type of person at the time. I'm like, if you tell me that it's too advanced for you, like, oh yeah, I'm going to show you. I'm going to prove to you that I can do it. So I went on Amazon and I just started buying everything I could from Imam Razali. Right. So I buy his autobiography. I buy it. I couldn't find in coherence to the philosophy. It wasn't available there, but I found it in the UCI library. So the book that he was talking about, I didn't really recognize what it was like, but I started, I started, you know, I find it in the library and then Amazon has like these recommendations. If you bought this book and you should buy this book, I'm like, I want to buy that book too. So I bought like reconstruction of religious thought in Islam by Allah Maqbal. And like a bunch of other books, which are way above my comic book level, you know, normal reading, right? So what I bought the mini is I'm going to show him and partly it was like to impress him. Partly it was to like figure out what this is and to show him like I can do it too. This was just my mentality. So I go and I start reading these books and then I start reading, you know, Razali in the philosophy and religion section in the library. I find out that he's in both sections. So I'm like, this is interesting. So I end up in the Islam section and I end up in the philosophy section and I'm looking at all the other books around the time. So I started reading, reading, reading, reading, going back, talking to this guy a little bit and eventually this is what kind of led me down the path of coming back towards Islam. Was there something that stood out for you from the reading that you did with him? Because I think like part of it is you still have this kind of DIY mentality type thing where you're like picking up translations of Imam Razali and so was there something that stood out to you from those readings? One of the things that really stood out to me was Imam Razali, again, he lived a thousand years ago and for me, I had this very modern, scientific, scientism mentality that we are the most advanced civilization, people of the past. They were primitive. They were foolish. They were dirty. They didn't understand what's going on in the world and then I pick up Imam Razali and I'm just reading it. I'm like, this guy is really clever. Like he's very sophisticated and he's a Muslim and he went to like Madrasa Nyillamia and I'm like, Madrasa. And like we were taught like Madrasa there's a bunch of kids rocking back and forth. He's reading Quran. They don't understand anything. They don't know anything. So, and again, I don't even understand what Madrasa Nyillamia is at the time. Just like this challenged my understanding of things. And then he writes an autobiography. So I ended up getting his autobiography when written in a book, Deliverance from Error. And when I'm reading it, I'm finding a lot of parallels. So it's like Imam Razali went through a crisis of skepticism and I'm like, I went through a crisis of skepticism and he basically like had all these doubts about Islam. I'm like, I had all these doubts about Islam. So he is part of his life story resonated with me. I'm like, this is a famous Muslim scholar who doubted. He was very intelligent. He had knowledge of Islam. He lived a thousand years ago. He was very clever before. Because I read some of the writings that he wrote before he went through this. And then when he's going through it, I'm like, this is like it mirrors what I was going through. And I'm like, I have someone now to relate to and this was like a big opening for me. So that really, really resonated and his incoherence of the philosophers reading some of the arguments. And you know, if you ever read, I don't recommend you read it too, but hopefully you're not like I was. If I tell you not to read it, you won't read it. I don't recommend you read it. It's very sophisticated text. It's an advanced text, you know. But I was looking at the arguments so he basically says this is what the philosophers say and then this is their response. And then if they respond like this, then you respond like, this is such a systematic way of arguing things and like responding to things. I've never encountered something like this before. I'm like, this guy could have responded to that book of Critiques of God like very well. You know, so that just kind of started restoring my confidence in these arguments, restoring my confidence in Islam. And I went through a bunch of other religions as well. So I looked into Christianity, Judaism. I had a dictionary of religions that I had bought like when I was in my junior year. I visited like London for a debate competition and I bought a book on dictionary of religions and it was like, it talks about almost all the religions in the world. So I'm going through and I'm like, if I was going to pick a religion, now that I kind of believe that there's room to believe in God, if I were to pick a religion, which religion would I pick? So I started going through the list, you know, and there's like shamanism religion and like folk religion and I'm like, okay, not that one, not that one. So I started going through this entire book and I'm like, which religion is what I even consider, you know. And then simultaneously I start reading this, I start going attending the Chodhbai, I start meeting this other person and eventually that's really kind of what led me back to say, you know, Islam is the religion that really makes the most sense. The other religions just don't make sense to me. So at this point when you're reading, you know, you're spending all this time in the library and I guess maybe more critically after you start reading some of these books from Al-Razadi, did you, how was your practice? Like when did you start praying again? Like was there religious practice going along with the reading or was it still just reading? It was just reading. It was just reading. Maybe there was some Dua or something like that. I don't really remember when I resumed praying. I don't remember when that was. I don't remember how that was. I can't remember if it was like English still or if it was somewhere it shifted into Arabic. But then when I started going and interacting with this guy, the same guy who introduced me to Al-Razadi, he starts telling me, he's like, you know what? And I'm like, I want to go to a place like Imam Al-Razadi went. But that was my thing. I'm like, I want to go to Madrasa Nizlamiyah, right? Which was in Iraq a thousand years ago. So and I don't understand anything about the world, you know, politics, news was like the most boring, you know, station. Like when I was a kid, I watched cartoons. I didn't really know much about the world at all. So I'm like, you know, can I go to Madrasa Nizlamiyah? He's like, he's like, he's like, he's like, you don't know what's happening in Iraq. Like in the war and everything. I'm like, no, what's like this school is like not there anymore. It's like it's been a thousand years. There's no Madrasa Nizlamiyah anymore. I'm like, okay. Well, like where can I go? So he starts telling me, he starts getting, he's himself is somebody who, who's like a student of knowledge. He wants to go and study himself. He's not studying. His father is a scholar. So he's like, you know, one of the best schools you can go to nowadays in his opinion was Nadwatollalama in India. Right? And he starts telling me about the chef, chef Abul Hassan and Nadwi. And he starts giving me some books. And he's like, you should read these books. You know, and I initially, I just like, I'm not really interested in it. I'm like, okay, I'll take it home. I kind of read a little bit just to impress him and come back. He's like, did you read it? I'm like, you know, look through it. It's pretty interesting. And like, I wasn't understanding it, but the chef Abul Hassan and Nadwi, he's also very intellectual, right? He's a very academic. So I was introduced to like the right literature at the right time. You know, I think back and I'm like, if he handed me a book, I would have just been completely sure not. If he handed me like a book on Nahu and said, like start studying Arabic or something like that, this wouldn't have like done much for me, you know? And I think, I think that's, you know, in retrospect, this is, this is one of the mistakes some type of people make. They're like, you know, they don't think about what you're struggling in. They're like, you know, you need a, like I said, you need a strong Islamic foundation. But like, if the first thing you do, it'd be like, you need to learn Arabic. Here's the book on surf. And I've seen this before. People are like, they have their own issues. They're coming in with background, baggage and everything. And they're like, you need to enroll in the Islamic studies program. They enroll in the Islamic studies program. This eventually happened to me. So I enrolled in Islamic studies program. I go to a madrasa thinking that I'm going to find Imam Huzang there, right? And instead what I find, they hand me a book on surf. Okay, you're going to start conjugating verbs, you know, fa'ana, fa'ana, fa'alu, fa'ana, fa'ana, fa'ana. You got to, you got to learn Arabic grammar. You got to learn this. You got to learn that. You got to learn Tajweed. You got to learn how to recite the Quran. You got to do Madd and Imala and Rome and Qishmam and you got to learn all these rules of how to recite the Quran. And I'm like, that's, I'm not there yet, right? Like that's not going to help me resolve any of the issues that I'm still struggling through. So I think, Alhamdulillah, Alhamdulillah, it's really a blessing from Allah that I met this guy and he recommended to me like the right literature. And I got exposed to the right books rather than getting exposed to like the wrong curriculum that would not have really been appropriate for me at the time. It seems like he took the time to listen to you and see where you were at before just giving you a recommendation. And he had the insight to actually do that too because he, I'm sure he selected the book that was appropriate for me and only I can like look back and I'm like, he could tell like, you know, a 19 year old kid, like 20 year old kid, whatever it is. This is what this kid needs. He needs something intellectual. I'm not going to, and again, he was someone who does study theft and all that stuff. But he's like, that's not what he needs. This is what he needs. And let me, let me try and, you know, get him to do something like that. So that was a huge blessing from Allah. So then you got on a plane to go study and that is not exactly. That's what I wanted to do. So I wanted to go and I'm like, that's it. I'm ready. I'm ready to go and I want to study Islam. I want to go to India. So I go and I tell my parents. I'm like, you know what, mom, dad, you know, I'm praying. I'm like back as if they didn't even know that I left Islam, right? So I'm like, but they're seeing changes in me. He's coming for Khutbah and he's talking to an Imam. Like this is really nice. So my mom, dad, I want to go to India. What? Are you crazy? Like we left that country, because their view of the country is like backwards and everything. We left that country to come to a better place in America. And you want to go back there? Why would you want to go back to the place that we ran away from? Like something's wrong with this kid. He doesn't know what he's doing, right? So I'm just like, so they're like, no, there's no where you're going. Like, I'm like, no, I have made up my mind. This is where people like Imam Ghazali are produced and they don't know who Ghazali is, right? And I'm like, I need to go there. They're like, no, we're not sending you there. So then finally we made a compromise. We made a deal. So they said, if you reenroll in UCI and you finish your degree in computer science, then we will send you to India. We'll send you to whatever school you want. So we said, okay, deal. So we made a deal. Alhamdulillah. Now that I come back to UCI, I reenrolled after a year of being off. You can reenroll without reapplying. So I got back into school and I'm one year behind. But now because I've been reading Ghazali, I've been reading Ahal al-Madin, read Kitab al-A'ilm, I have like appreciation for knowledge. I keep on reading all these books. My mentality and approach to school is completely changed. Because before it was like, why would I read any books if I can get an A while reading the Cliff Notes or not even have to read, even the Cliff Notes was too much. I didn't even have to read the whole Cliff Notes. Like why put all that effort in when I knew I can get an A? But now I actually value the knowledge itself because when you learn Islam and you read some of these things about intellectual history, it teaches you like the benefit of learning any type of knowledge really has benefit. So now I'm coming with a completely different mentality. So I just stack up all the classes. I start finishing them off and I finish my degree in three years instead of four years. A lot of people, they even take five years from computer science. So I finish it very quickly, finding classes, because now I have double motivation. Motivation number one, I care about the knowledge that I'm studying. But every subject, I was like interested in it. Second motivation, I need to get out of here, and I need to get out of America. I need to go and study where the real Islam is being taught, which I think is in India at the time. So I'm like, this is my goal. So then I end up joining the Muslim Student Union and they kind of pull me in. I just wanted to go there to pray and then I would go back to the library and just keep reading. And they're like, you know, you're reading and you've read more books than all. I'm like, I just came back to Islam. They're like, you've read more books than all the other MSU people, right? Can you let's start teaching a class? So I'm like, I get stuck. I'm like, okay, fine. I'll teach something. So I start teaching a class. Then I get asked to do hotba. Then I start getting asked to do hotbas in the Masjid and stuff like. I'm like, I just came back to Islam like six months ago. But this is what happens. I get pulled in the direction when someone's excited and motivated and all that. So I start doing all this and then I finally finished my degree. I tell my parents, promise is a promise. Go into India. They're like, you know, we change our mind. You're not going anywhere. I'm like, but we had a deal. So yeah, we change our mind. You're not going anywhere. So they just did that. Maybe they just did that just to motivate me to finish my degree because that was the thing. So not right of them, but so they said, you're not going anywhere. What am I supposed to do? Go get a job like everybody else. You finish your degree, you get a job and you get married and you settle down. So that's their trajectory of the average parent. This is what you're supposed to do. And then you're going to settle down. You're going to become mature and you have some kids. And that's it. You don't need to focus on all this other stuff. And if you want to take a few Islamic classes locally and that's good enough for you. So they were taking me to other, basically other scholars to convince me why I shouldn't go abroad and study anywhere else. And it was really, it was kind of shady. Actually, I usually don't mention this, but I got my dad's permission. So he would actually go and he would donate to this because he was wealthy. He would donate to the scholars their school or their machine before he would bring me in. And then he would say, basically paid off the check and he's like, can you talk to my son about why there's some amazing opportunities to study? He's slung here. He doesn't need to go abroad anywhere. So they're trying to convince me in a month. Becoming a programmer is the best thing about it, right? Actually, my father, you know, my father actually didn't want me to go to school either. So he was not a pro school because he's a businessman. So he's like, why would you even become a programmer when you can come and work with me and make 10 times what a programmer would make normal? Because he's very successful in his business. So he was not really pro education actually, but he's like, this is the lesser of the two evils. You know, it's like go ahead and finish your degree at least, you know, this is good enough. So this is what happens, I'm happy. So I'm like, okay, I'm not able to go, not able to go anywhere. So I'm like, okay, I start studying a little bit Islam privately here and there. I got to go get a job. So I go and all my bank accounts are drained. I have no money. So I get a job. I get a job and I start working as a programmer. And as soon as I got just in, I calculated how much money do I need to get a ticket to go to India? How much does it cost to live over there? And it's interesting. This school, because India is a very poor place. And the madrasas are definitely not madrasa nilvami, but they're very, they cater to the poor people. So the cost of enrolling in the madrasa in India, just take a guess how much it is. Did you already know this? Just take a guess. So how much is, this is in 2003, cost of food, lodging and tuition. For one semester. For the whole year. Per month. How much is per month? Monthly, yeah. I'm going to guess $200. Good guess. $6 a month. No, you don't have a lot. $6 a month. Because there's like some stipend and there's, it's designed for people who are like orphans and really, really poor. So that's just the way the school works. So I'm like, I can buy the plane ticket. It's expensive. $6 a month to live with food, tuition and everything. And it's a really difficult living. You're going to be living with like six or eight people in a room cramped. You literally, you live on your bed. You eat on your bed. Your bed turns into a table. So you eat on it and then turns into a desk and you study on it. Like you get like a little, your whole space is a bed. Like that's your life. Right. It's very primitive with living. So I'm like, I made just enough money that I'll be able to go and be able to pay the ticket, airplane ticket and everything. As soon as I got my, I don't know, 10th paycheck or something like that, I go to my parents and I'm like, Mom, Dad, I have enough money to go to India now. You can't stop me. So I'm going. And then they start panicking. They're like, what are we going to do? We need to stop this kid. So that's when they start taking me to other shoe and, you know, start paying them and talk to him and convince him why he should study at the local school, why he shouldn't go. Cause they were very scared for me. We had no family in India. Right. All family members are in Pakistan. So they're like, why don't you go to Pakistan? I'm like, no, because this school that I need to go to is only in India. It's not anywhere else. This is 2003. This is 2003. This is also post 9-11. This is post 9-11. Where young Muslim men, you know, leaving the US to go study Islam. Leaving the US to go study Islam and go fight somewhere else. Yeah. That's actually one thing I was thinking about as well. At the time, right? A kid who's new to Islam and wants to do something. So I'm thinking about study and maybe I'll, you know, go help brothers in some part of the world. You don't know what to do. You don't have any guidance. You still don't have any full mentorship or anything like that. So that was the kind of what was going on. And then finally, my father comes up with the last idea. You know, his last idea was he goes, okay, I have one last offer for you. Because he's like this. I'm buying my ticket. I'm about to leave, right? And he goes, okay, remember when you were growing up, you're, you have, me and my brother, we only had one poster on our wall each since we were kids, like since like fourth grade, fifth grade. And it just stayed on the wall since all the way through college. It's the only, only poster we had on our wall. You know, all the other posters came down to basketball players and all that stuff. The one poster that remained on the wall was my brother had a poster of a Lamborghini Countach and I had a poster of a Ferrari Testerosa, right? And so he goes, you know that, you know the car? What's the car that you have on the wall? I said, Ferrari Testerosa. He goes, if you don't go to India, we go to the dealership right now and we're going to get you a Ferrari Testerosa. And he's not bluffing either because he's wealthy. He can afford it. He can afford it. So, and I'm like, yeah, this is the most tempting, this is the most tempting, you know, this is the biggest temptation of my life, right? And now I've been in the MSA. I've been giving Khutbahs. Now I'm actually have Muslim friends and everything like that. And now they're telling me, you know, they're like, if you got the Ferrari and you're already studying, you can study locally. You already give me Khutbahs in the Majlis. You're already teaching classes in the MSU. You would be like the coolest Imam ever. Like the Imam that drives the Ferrari. Imagine how much Hassanat you get. You get so many. All the youth would be following you. You can get so much more reward by taking the Ferrari. So you get the Dean and the Dunya boats. I'm like, this is like the worst fit never. I'm like, I'm on a quest. I still have a lot of questions I want to ask. I want to get a deeper understanding of Islam. And then even my friends are like, no, you should do it, man. Because they're also like, we're going to ride with you too. We're going to pull up in the Ferrari and you need to give me the Khutbah in your Ferrari Testerosa, right? And I'm like, oh man, this is such a temptation. It tells a big temptation, you know. But alhamdulillah, you know, in retrospect, I have no regrets. So I said, no, I'm going no matter what. And alhamdulillah, I packed my bags and I almost didn't even get a visa. It was post-911 in India. The same way it is now. They ask you where your parents were born. And this was like shocking to me because like in America, they don't ask you where your parents were born. So if even one of your parents was born in Pakistan, there's such a rivalry, they won't give you a visa. So normally I shouldn't have even gotten a visa. What happened was, and this is post-911, so I go in there for the line for the visa just to even be able to enter into India. And I'm sitting there and I'm at the line and they're about to close and I'm at the end of the line. And they're like, you know what? I had like whatever documents are like, people told me you're probably not going to get it because your parents are like have born in Pakistan. Or my dad was born in India but my mom was born in Pakistan. And that's enough to disqualify you. So at the end, right at the end, they're like, you know, we're closing up for the day. Last five people in line, either they need to leave or we're going to speed them through. So there were two guys debating and they're like, you know what? Tell them to leave. You know, we're closing. Then I was like, no, just only a few people left in line. Just speed them through. So they're like, okay, come, come, come. They didn't even look at our documents and they just stamped 10-year visa on the spot. And I'm like, I haven't been in there, man. I got a visa post 9-11, you know, to go to India. And like, this was a very rare thing. You know, it's Al-Qadirullah, you know? So, alhamdulillah, we got the visa and everything. And I left and I made my way to India. Alhamdulillah. You know, Subhanallah, one of the things that strikes me when I listen to the story is that like, all the way through, even at the point where you become an atheist and you start believing in God and so it seems like you had, because you said when you were in a junior in high school, you bought a dictionary of religions, right? Yes. And so it seems like all along, there's something inside of you that's saying like, this is something important. Yeah. There's an important question about what is truth? Who is, you know, is there a God? Who is God? You know, so it seems like that's a persistent theme throughout the story that you take it seriously. Yes. Maybe you made, you know, make some wrong turns. Yes. But all the way through, it was important. You took it seriously. And like wanting to understand things was like something very important for me, you know, so like I always had the mentality to understand how things work and all that. So I applied that to things in life, applied that to religion. Like I want to understand how this religion works and why do we say in prayer what we say? And why do we do what we do? And that's why I like the whole folding the carpet and some of these things just don't make sense to me. You know, so I'm like, and then when I heard that like, it's not really part of Islam, I'm like, oh, there's, so, so there are things I accurately identified as not making sense. And I was right about that. I'm like, something was, something was, you know, resonating with me. So yes, there was always that thing in me that I wanted to understand things and I value the truth for the truth. And it's something that I should be, you know, thinking about. So as we, as we wrap up here, I think one of the questions that I heard from the brother, and that's something that's interesting and important to me as well is like, so, you know, obviously from that point, you went on to study that in India, that was the Arama studied in Egypt, as I studied in the medicine in Germany, France, France, sorry. But I guess reflecting looking back now, and you know, the position that you are now, you know, it's mentoring young adults in the message, the youth in the message and the parents who are dealing with those kids. What's some sort of practical lessons that you can share with us as we and our kids and the youth in the community face some of these challenges? Yeah, there's a lot. I mean, I think number one, I'd say for parents particularly, you know, role modeling Islam is one of the most important things, right? Taking Islam seriously yourself and then being a good role model and that means like praying, understanding why you do what you do and taking Islam very seriously is definitely one thing. The second thing is being very careful about what you teach, right? So like, don't just pass off random stuff, you know, fabricated hadith or cultural practices and not understanding what is Islam versus what is, you know, it's because what happens is if you pass off something wrong and you're so confident about it, then it's going to create a level of skepticism in your children and they're going to be like, well, like you said, if mom and dad lied about this one thing or they were wrong about this one thing, well, they could be wrong about this other and then it just keeps on going, right? So like, if I grew up being told that there's a tooth fairy, you know, and then you grow up and you're like, oh, mom and dad, you know, they just made up the whole tooth fairy thing and you realize it was not true and all that stuff and Santa Claus coming down the chimney and all that. We were, you know, your kids, all that stuff and parents think like sometimes, you know, when you do these little white lies or whatever, it doesn't affect kids, but it does and it has a greater effect than you could possibly imagine, right? So even when it comes to the religion, it's very important that you don't pass off culture as being part of the religion, that you take your Islam seriously, that you implement these things in your life and encourage kids through your own practice as well, but encourage them to have a deep understanding of Islam. If we focus only on a superficial understanding of Islam, just learn to recite Quran and learn to memorize surahs of the Quran or just memorize things without understanding the deeper meaning of why and we live in a society which challenges you. We live in a society that talks about trying to understand, you know, why things happen and the, you know, any subject you take you like try to understand the detail of why and what's the rationale and the wisdom behind it and then if Islam is like there's no why and there's no questions and there's, you know, you shouldn't even question and all that stuff, you shut down the question, that's very detrimental. So be open, you know, to questions, legitimate questions, have good strong solid foundation, be consistent in what you do and just be a really good role model and invest, I would say invest in good Islamic studies programs. It's really, it's not something you can stint on, it's not something to be like, you know, okay, there's three Islamic classes, let's go with the cheapest one because, you know, that teacher they charge half the price of the other one. So you don't do that when it comes to buying a car and you don't do that when it comes to your own education, you don't look, you want to go to like a better school or a better this or better. So we really need to take Islam very seriously and that will automatically resonate and help with the kids. Exactly. Do we have time for the audience? Let's start with the sisters. Just raise your hand and we'll come to the brothers. I'll come to the mic. I'll just go to the brother here. So I was actually a little bit late today. I just want to find out one thing. Could you just let us know just a little bit what really prompted you in the first place to move away from Islam? Is there any particular class that you took? Maybe I might have missed that. And what book it is that really forced you to move away from Islam? I mean, you'd have to probably watch the video on that one. I can tell you the book is called Critiques of God. Okay. And the next thing is anyway you can suggest some of the books that could be given to the young folks to understand better from their perspective when they're going to the high schools and so on. What are the books that you can think of? Sure. So the books that I would recommend for you today, so the youth that are struggling with the issues of Islam is going through. One of the best books I think is God, Islam and the Skeptic Mind. There's a second edition, maybe there's a third edition out now. That's one of the really good ones. If someone's not struggling with those issues particularly, I recommend foundational books like Islam and Focus by Hamoud Abdullati. Old book as a scholar, but it's a good book. I recommend Towards Understanding Islam by Maududi. I recommend Road to Makkah, the autobiography of Muhammad Assad. I recommend Islam the Natural Way by Abdul Wahid Hamid. It's a good start. I have a list on my website, mustafarmer.com of books that I recommend. Inshallah for different ages. Mike, when it works. Sisters are very quiet tonight. Never mind him. So you said your girlfriend converted to Islam, right? So did her parents knew about it? That's a good question. Yeah, no. They didn't know. She wore her job outside the house. So no, her parents didn't know because her parents were atheists and they were communists. Actually, she was Vietnamese. So she was very afraid of her parents because her parents were anti-religion. They were anti-Christian and they were anti-any religion actually. So I think her elder sister, if I recall correctly, her elder sister wanted to become a Christian and her family was very upset about it. So she decided not to tell her parents about becoming Muslim. Zakallah here. Very nice journey. You started about a week in the school as babysitting. And I know that. But as you give advice to the parents to be role modeling, what is the advice to give to the community? Masjid, we can do school. What do we need to do also as a community and we can do school to help the kids growing up in healthy environment? Great question. Hopefully we have two more hours for me to give all my advice on this thing. I would say, you know, first and foremost, we need to focus on what are the most attended aspects of a Masjid by the average Muslim community and we need to make sure that that is the best experience. So I'll say what I mean. Number one, the Khutbah is the most important function in the American Muslim community, right? It's the main contact that all Muslims have with the minimal amount of Islam that they're going to get. So the Khutbah needs to be of the highest quality. That means that when you're bringing speakers in, you need to make sure that they're qualified speakers. You need to make sure that they're not only qualified but they're trained public speakers. The problem is we either have very charismatic speakers but they don't have Islamic knowledge or we have people which have very good Islamic knowledge but they're not trained to be public speakers. So I really believe that the community needs to invest in the highest quality Khutbah because the Khutbah is like the 20 minute, 25 minute highest quality, most impact to the general Muslim community. The Khutbah needs to be the highest quality. You need to take the people and make sure that they have Islamic knowledge and they need to send them to like the Carnegie Institute to like learn public speaking and learn to really like a Khutbah should be putting in like 5 to 10 hours prep time because of the amount of impact that it's going to have. But you also need to make sure that if they're employed the Majid understands that they need that time. That's an investment of time that's going to have a major impact. So the Khutbah needs to be really powerful. The Majid experience, the Juma experience needs to be really really good as well. Everything from announcements to how you feel to traffic flow to parking resolving the parking problem because that's going to bring have the maximum effect. Then when it comes to Islamic education, Islamic education needs a lot of investment to be very high quality. And what I believe is that there's two types of parents. When it comes to kids education there's a type of parents who are happy with the babysitting model and if they're happy with the babysitting model then at least they're going to get something. But there should be a simultaneous another option and basically you need to present to parents and say listen we have two programs. One of them is the babysitting model we give you a little bit of Islamic education but then there's another one it costs a little bit more money, takes a little bit more time and investment but this is the higher quality program and you encourage and say this is what your kids get out of a high quality program and this is what your kids get out of the low quality program and then you let your parents decide what do they want to have but what you cannot do is you cannot combine both of them together because what you do is if you have high quality kids and high quality families coming in then the ones who are not interested in that will actually bring them down. So we need to have an elite program and we need to have the common program for everybody else and of course you should be able to transfer back and forth between the two programs. This is what I've always advocated for youth groups. If the kids are serious but their parents are not serious you talk to the kids and say you seem to be quite serious would you like to transfer into the series program and you let them and the parents are very serious but the kids are not they got into the this program and say this you don't really seem like you want to be here you seem like your parents just threw you here we're not going to pressure you to be here if you really don't want to be here you can transfer back to the more fun fun and games program and you let them and therefore now everyone is in the right place where they really want to be and now you have responsibility if someone comes out and says you know what I put them in Islamic school Islamic school should have fixed the problem say well which one did you put them in in the quality one or in the the regular one or you did the low quality one because you didn't want to spend the money you want to put the time well what do you expect that's what you got right and then no one can come back and be like well what happened I don't understand why my kid is having doubts about Islam it doesn't want to come to the mushy well that's what you invested in so I think we need to really think about these models and develop them and invest a lot into education Assalamu alaikum brother I don't have a question but I want to let you know that this is really the best two hours that I spent this week in fact amazing storytelling now I know who is the Imam who sold the Ferrari thank you thank you okay so conclude with the dua inshaAllah Allahumma anta assalam wa minka assalam tabarak to rabbina yathur jalan wa ikram rabbina atina fidunya hasana wa fid'a akhrati hasana wa qin'a azaab inna wallah strengthen our iman strengthen our faith wallah help our youth and help people who are going through struggles wallah help people who are going through doubts about your religion wallah help us to take Islam very seriously wallah help us to realize our purpose in life and why youth created us wallah help us to establish the resources for our community to help resolve these doubts and to have a strong high quality Islamic educational program in our community wallah help us and guide us in all times and in all things we do aameen subhanir rabbika rabbil i'satiyam wa yusifuhu wa salam wa n'al al mursaleen