 Welcome to another episode of Islamabad today on think tech a lot today. We're going to be speaking about governance innovation and reforms How can government policy making have a trickle-down effect on local populations? And how do innovative techniques strategies and you could say different ideas can try and assist the government in trying to make Sure that policy making has that effect on local populations And we do see this great divide between the population as well as government policy making And what are the areas that can act as bridges to try and make sure that we can actually address this divide? I have with me member of the governance innovation and reforms at the Planning Commission of Pakistan Mr. Adnan Rafiq. Mr. Adnan Rafiq Thank you so much for joining me on the show Thank you for having me All right, so let's talk about innovation and reforms and governance Why do you think it's necessary to make sure that you could say governance can actually be you know Reform to a large extent and what sort of innovative techniques can actually be implemented to try and make sure that those ends can be met So a lot of people see Pakistan as a country that is very difficult to govern And I think primarily the perception arises from the fact that Pakistan is a very diverse country. It has geographic diversity It has social diversity It has you know economic inequality. So if you look at it, we have all sort of social economic fault lines So we have, you know, ethnic divide. There's a religious divide then urban rural gender gap We have it all and also if you look at the geography right from a very difficult mountainous Trane down to the deserts And so on It's a it's it's it's you know, it's a mix And then we are in a neighborhood, you know, that has been fraught with different sort of geopolitical and global problems you look at Afghanistan you look at Iran and and then we have been fraught with you know, complicated relationship on our eastern border with India So if you look at all the mix of things, you know, there are Challenges and and as a result you know in the last 70 75 years, I think our governance system has been evolving and It's still work in progress, which is why it's extremely important that we keep an eye on the ball We make continuous Efforts to incrementally but surely improve our governance system and To answer your your question more specifically look the world has changed in Pakistan We have a new generation. We have new demographics We have a completely different Pakistan today than we had even 20 years ago and this new Pakistan demands a very different approach to governance a very different sort of service delivery and The state ought to respond to these emerging needs, which is why I think governance is central to to do our societal life and for the future of our nation Okay, so give a certain examples of the kind of innovative techniques that actually need to be implemented to try and make sure The governance models can be more you could say public responsive or society responsive. I Think you know, I'll you know a lot of people talk about it and tech and all that I'll come to that But in the latter half perhaps I think the more essential bit that we need to have in our governance is a Politics of consensus or our governing with consensus, which means an inclusive approach Where people are duly represented? Proportionally in the power structure where people have a say and have a voice in deciding various policies which affect their lives and That is absolutely critical and I think we made some progress in this respect since the 18th amendment because that transferred a lot of powers to the provinces where it should belong and you know it kind of Strengthened strengthened our federalism now that leaves us obviously with enormous coordination Challenges as we saw that when we had the COVID pandemic or the floods during the last year that needed an integrated coordinated response and I think we are evolving models like the NCOC or the NFR CC Where all stakeholders were brought together on one platform to provide that integrated and Ordinated response that these enormous challenges required. So again, these two are good examples of how a Consultative inclusive approach can be adopted to govern the country Now this needs to go beyond the provinces as well And we need to have a third tier of governance through local governments so that we can complete this The political space where people Communities can have their say and can decide for themselves. So I think that is the critical bit which is still missing in this regard second is the modes of service delivery again, we've had a political system and culture Where we have relied on what we call the politics of patronage Which means that, you know, if we need to get some work done You will rely on your friend or family or someone within the power hierarchy who will facilitate Your, you know, whatever you need to get done even if it's completely legitimate and and and and your right to have but even for Getting basic services service delivery, whether it's justice and security Whether it's just boarding a flight, you know on on the national flag area You will have instances where you will have to call up someone and someone will As a favor facilitates you right this this has been our culture Now this needs to shift from the culture or the politics of patronage Which is trading favors to a politics of service delivery Where the political players accrue the the political capital by providing Good efficient effective services rather than through this informal system of You know, delivering patronage. So I think that is absolutely key a significant shift that we need and this is the only way Through which we'll be able to provide services indiscriminately Irrespective of who's the recipient we have to raise our service standards and and and some good examples exist Where we have achieved it. So you take the example of motorway police It's a good example to see where everyone is treated the same way Same rules apply to everyone. You cannot escape If you make a mistake, you know, you will have to pay the fine as well If you need assistance, we'll get assistance as Like the same way as anyone else Nadra is another example where you go to any nadra center There is a process you will have to follow the queue. You will get your services So I think double one double two, you know, the rescue service again has has done a phenomenal job So I think we have these examples that we need to build upon and expand so that the all public service delivery is rules based And is efficient and effective and provide services to all citizens irrespective of any needs for asking favor or anything So that's the second thing and in order to achieve this Of course technology has a major role because this is only possible When we move from Service delivery model, which is more outcome centric than the outcomes centric. So we have to move from Laying down our key performance indicators within the public sector Which from just outputs So for example, if we are building a school Generally the KPIs we look at is whether the building has been constructed Whether it's been furnished whether we have teachers and whether we have now running School or not what we do not often look at Are the learning outcomes that we are achieving by the provision of that whole infrastructure and and and human resource So we have to shift from output centric Service delivery to outcome centric service delivery and In order to enable that you need transparency you need evidence-based policymaking And technology is a key tool that we can use to leverage That we need to leverage in order to achieve this right So i'm very clear in that that it is, you know, as someone said even in the governance forum that you mentioned That the tools of governance have changed from the paper and pen to, you know, tech and You know with now artificial intelligence coming in and You know it has become digital um And therefore we need to incorporate digital technologies as much as possible To to achieve the the ends that i just mentioned All right, so one of the key tools is e-governance When we talk about e-governance, it's to try and make sure that services can actually be expedited to the general public And one of the keys regarding e-governance is to try and make sure that bureaucratic inertias are actually tackled But if you take a look at the majority of pakistanis who actually need to get registered They need a few government services with regard to um, you know, even possible criminal complaints They do complain of a lot of bureaucratic inertias which are actually taking place So do you think that this is a major hurdle and if yes, then what needs to be done to tackle that? Absolutely, I mean look the state institutions in pakistan were established during the british colonial age and even then they were established with a sole Perview of subjugating the people not necessarily to serve the people A good example is is the police which was established along the irish constabulary model rather than the metropolitan policing model Even at that time. So therefore, uh, we've had, you know, sort of a post-colonial state institutions That are not really geared to to to serve the people And and and they have, you know, a lot of Inertia, as you said in rigidity when it comes to You know, achieving the objectives that they ought to achieve And I think there will be an incremental process through which this needs to be changed The most important thing In bringing about any change is to achieve stakeholder consensus, right and in pakistan That has been lacking frankly And in order to push Relevant stakeholders to agree on for example civil service reforms, which is which would be absolutely key to these things right now or civil service Lacks any sort of genuine? or effective performance management It lacks, uh, you know, even Specialization in various fields Uh, we rely too much on generalists Who lead policy making exercises in in their respective? Domains, uh, then we also Need the right incentives Uh, as I said, uh for them to perform. They are generally overworked poorly paid and uh, not supported As as much as they should be So, uh, I think we we need quite a major overhaul of the whole Civil service system right from the recruitment and induction Down to their performance progression their their career progression performance management and the retirement and and the incentive structure that uh that they have and uh In order in order to to meet, uh, you know the in order to respond to to the uh aspirations that the citizens now have And this is a tall order, right? So I think no one should be under the illusion that this can be done in 90 days or it can be done overnight Uh, this will be a slow process as I said, there are as a few examples I mentioned give you to give you another example Pakistan customs, um Recently, uh, installed just like we are having this, uh, conversation over zoom So they they started a zoom, uh, they they established a zoom system over which Uh, the businessman or the importers exporters they could They could have their meetings with the customer customs officials through zoom rather than going all the way to their office waiting in queues and you know All of that so they created an online system where you can book your appointment You use your CNIC number if you miss two appointments That means you don't show up without rescheduling it third time the system won't allow you to book and you will have to go to their office But it worked, uh, fantastically. So I think, uh, similarly we need to incorporate Uh, emerging technologies, uh to facilitate the citizens and what's important for the power elites to understand is that uh Now with 250 million people This is a more sure short way for them to serve the citizens and get the political dividends Rather than the the informal, uh favor The trading system or the patronage based system that that has been uh in operation So so this is where I see that you know, gradually incrementally, we'll be able to improve our service delivery Much of this also has to do with digital literacy And uh, you know, the population being well aware of how to use softwares and applications and you know Online databases to try and suit their needs Do you think that there needs to be more training of the local population as to what digital literacy is? I'll come to the panels of digital literacy, uh later and digitalization later But with regard to literacy, do you think that there needs to be more training programs that can actually make sure That the population is made well aware of how to digitally get work done? I think of course, uh, one has to consider the digital divide and make sure that those Who are not, uh, who do not have digital literacy? Um, due to various factors, uh, they are not excluded, right? So you always have to cater to all citizens irrespective of their ability To access public services through technology or not However, there is an expanding constituency. Of course with the advent of touch screen phone, you know, a lot of people Uh, you know find it much easier to access services Again sms has been used, you know, just the simple text messaging has been used quite effectively uh to uh communicate with the citizens and uh, for example, you can check your, uh, um, electoral data where your vote is registered, etc Through by simply sending a sms. So, you know, in a lot of instances, you don't need very high tech systems You can simply use simpler and Formats or interfaces that people are more familiar with like like sms, but uh, even for more complicated applications I think that as long as I think one thing we need to do Much better is to use local languages When we create interfaces because in a lot of instances, it's more the language barrier than then, you know, along with the Language barrier that makes it very difficult for imagine if you have a screen in front of you and you cannot read it, right? Uh, then you wouldn't know what to do with that app even if you have installed it in your phone So again, uh, we need an approach that is inclusive of people who cannot access services through mediated Biotechnology, but at the same time because we have a young population 65% of the country are young people They have enormous capacity to learn and I think we should always have tutorials guides and A supportive material to enable more and more people to use technology A good example is, you know, you you you landed Dubai airport, right? and irrespective of Who's in the plane? Now I increasingly see almost everyone going through the smart gates right, whether They are literate illiterate, whether they are IT professional or a laborer you know, if you Provide space and opportunity for people to learn You know, they can learn But it's important thing is to have those options available be inclusive facilitate as much as possible Okay, so when we talk about impediments towards innovation and reform and governance I mean, there are many, you know, you could say stakeholders or you could say many different variables and factors Who would be resistant to any innovative techniques from the government bureaucracies as well? So how do you think, uh, what is the Manor in which such, you know irritants can be weeded out to try and make sure that innovation reform can actually take place Yes, so first of all the pressure has to come from the citizenry, right? So citizens, uh through social media, we have very vocal and very expressive, uh citizenry Increasingly we have an urban educated middle class population. I think that's the real poor group That provides a lot of impetus for change. So you look at not just Lahore Karachi and Ravel Pindi But we have, uh, you know, the Smaller cities are growing expanding increasingly getting urbanized and people now have a shared worldview created through diffusion of electronic and social media So people increasingly there's a huge constituency that aspires for the same level of services delivered by the government as in the developed world, right? And that creates the pressure on all government functionaries To improve their performance be transparent, you know and be effective So so one thing is that there has to be that social place Social pressure because the governments and systems only respond and change if they are compelled to do so, right? Otherwise the inertia continues now the job of people like us is really to translate that demand or social pressure into uh genuine and You know sustainable change within the governance systems, right? And um, I and and that's where it's it's it's a bit of Back and forth because you are right. No one wants to change Unless you know, they are forced to do so or unless there is enough Either compulsion or incentive to change. So I think that given the mix of stakeholders we have Increasingly as we move towards The politics of service delivery increasingly as we move Increasingly as we interact with you know more urban middle-class young population Um, it will have to you know the mode of governance and service delivery have to change unfortunately, one thing we haven't done well is that we've gone down the route of You know accountability in a sense that Rather than ensuring transparency and enhancing public accountability through the right to information act Through setting cities and bodies like public safety commissions through putting out data out in the public through portals and other digital tools We created a bit of dis harmony within the system through institutions who really came building the sword In the name of accountability now that you know puts the whole system into Into a fix because a bureaucracy simply stopped, you know signing the files and And getting the work done that was necessary To run the affairs of the state. I think we need to better balance our approach We need to emphasize more on transparency and public accountability and let The institutions and the laws that we already have deal with any irregularities And and and then apply them fairly and squarely right so that there's no perception of any discrimination or persecution In using or wielding the the sword of accountability and also we have to look at genuinely the Predicament that a lot of government servants are in we have to for example look at the salary gap For comparable positions in the private sector and in the public sector right and make sure that that gap does not grow enormously because without adequate incentivization and adequate Salary structures and and so on you can't expect people to You know remain motivated for For very long time and these this is a service where people, you know spend their whole lives in 30 35 years Is is the average duration of? Of of a person's tenure in public sector right so you have to Make sure that they have the support that they need as well as the pressure to to perform move towards performance management and deliver better services So with increased digitalization, you also have an increase in spite or a spike in threats And you mentioned the pakistan lives in a very difficult neighborhood. You have afghanistan to the west. We have india to the east They are hostilities with iran as well So in light of that there is this possibility that increased digitalization could result in cyber crimes or acting Or you could say disruption from nefarious Elements, so how do you think a pakistan can actually navigate through this delicate balance of a initiating digitalization and governance And also securing its national databases and its national infrastructure from nefarious design There's a lot of emphasis now on cyber security. We've already last year established a national center on cyber security putting together leading research organizations and universities together And different state institutions are enhancing and developing capacity for cyber security. Of course data security is a very important Issue and as we move towards greater digitalizing not just public data, even our banking sector or security sector and so on needs, you know Good standards of cyber security But again, these are not things that no one else in the world has done You know, various countries have achieved good levels of cyber security and so can we Again, I think a technical solution is not as much of a problem Then the political will And consensus among stakeholders once we achieve that Then, you know, once there once there is meaningful consensus Then, you know technical solutions will follow And there will be a there will there might be teething problems and you know a learning curve to go through but Again, this is not something that is undoable Mr. Adnan, you mentioned You could say consensus consensus can only take place if there's policy continued And we've noticed that in Pakistan there's a lot of political turmoil. You also see governments being toppled leaders getting arrested And you you do witness this culture or climate of fear, which is prevents Which is preventing policy continuity to take place. So for that you do need political stability for consensus But that is some something that has alluded Pakistan for quite some time Absolutely, I I think that we need to make policies that have greater ownership than just the sitting government And we need to develop a culture where The opposition parties do not um, you know scuttle An ongoing policy simply because uh, it doesn't have their label on it, right So if a policy was initiated in the previous by by by the previous government um As long as you know It is delivering Its objectives as long as it is deemed necessary for for for the country Then it should be continued and that will only happen If we again where I started from that it will only happen when we have consensus on Key policies that that are absolutely critical for the come for the country and that Consensus has to go beyond just the sitting government rather. It has to be multi stakeholder consensus that involves the civil and military side that involves federal government and the provinces and Yeah, a whole of a nation approach, right now, of course, of course when a new government comes in They they have to review policies Through the lens of their manifesto their priorities What they have promised to the electorate now that's a legitimate Obviously, uh, that that's important to happen. But again, uh, you know, it's better That you refine and improve ongoing policies rather than completely Shutting them down and reinventing the wheel And I think that goes back to how the policies are developed at the first place if we are consultative if we involve all the key stakeholders that need to be Involved it will become difficult for any government to shun that policy because even if they'll reinvent the wheel They will reach pretty much the same conclusions, right? So I think we are making some progress in that respect um and You can see for example bis the social protection policy And the major social protection programs that we have they have survived three changes in government, right? We should learn from that and replicate it in other critical sectors of national importance So that we can we can have continuity of policies, uh in those domains as well all right Mr. Anand Rafiq, thank you so much for joining on the show It's it's been a pleasure. Thank you So that's all that we have for Islamabad today on things like a while You can follow us on social media pages for all the latest update until next time. Take care