 We are ready to start. Welcome to Global Perspectives on Race, Justice, and Equity. I'm Abby Williams, Director of the Institute for Global Leadership and Professor of the Practice of International Politics at the Fletcher School at Tufts. The brutal killing of George Floyd in Minneapolis sparked global black lives matter protests against systemic racism, racial injustice, and inequity. The aim of Global Perspectives is to contribute to the long overdue global conversation about racism, which is deeply embedded in the political, economic, and social structures of many societies. These conversations will challenge everyone to take action to address the destructive legacy of racism and promote a just and equitable world for all. Our inaugural guest is David Lambie, Member of Parliament for Tottenham and Shadow Secretary of State for Justice in the United Kingdom. Principal, erudite, and charismatic. David is a vocal advocate for racial and social justice. He studied law at Saws and at Harvard. In 2000, at the age of 27, he was elected an MP and is now one of the most recognizable figures in British politics. Today, we're going to talk about black lives matter, justice, and equity in the UK. David, in London, welcome. We've seen. Thank you very much. Lovely to have you. We've seen the global explosion of the black lives matter movement in recent months. As a black man and a black politician, what has been the impact of the black lives movement on you? Well, look, I think it's important to say that, of course, when we saw those images of George Floyd dying, in 8 minutes 46 seconds, they were not new in the sense that there are names like Trayvon Martin, Eric Garner, and so many others that have become names that the global community recognized emanating from a powerful concern about police brutality in relation to black men, women, and boys in the United States. However, this happened in a strange time for us because, of course, the world is gripped with a pandemic. And the truth of this is that people have been at home watching avidly the news and television. They have been on social media with a gaze that perhaps they haven't quite had before, primarily because they were focused on news about the coronavirus. But I think for that reason, this global moment cut through powerfully. And the message that was Black Lives Matter very quickly was not just a US message or a US call. It spoke powerfully in the UK, France, Brazil globally. And this was the world's moment. And it has led to deeper conversations, of course, here in the UK. It would be true to say that the experience of structural racism here in the United Kingdom has been one where I think that Britain has been prepared to have a debate about individual acts of racism. Someone calls you something terrible if someone discriminates against you in employment or in relation to housing. But Britain has been far less keen to have discussions around structural racism, institutional racism, notions like white privilege or indeed white supremacy. And there's a European tradition, isn't there, of looking across the water at what's happening over the pond and patting yourself on the back with our racism is nothing like as bad as the racism in the United States. And for the first time, and of course, let me just say, because of the prevalence of guns in the United States, obviously, the complexion of these discussions takes on a particular feature. But nevertheless, this time, I think it has absolutely caused a real and meaningful debate about structural racism. I think it's been led by the millennial and Generation Y. It has meant black and white young people taking to the streets, breaching rules, of course, about the pandemic, but feeling the call to protest. It has led to a debate about colonization and decolonization. And of course, it's led to our own debate in relation to policing in this country. And you know, Abby, that I have been at the center of much of that over many years in relation to our criminal justice system. So that is the truth of what has happened. And I think it's been a very, very important and historic moment. I'd like to come back to the topic of policing, which, of course, you've been a leader on. But first, you mentioned the coronavirus and we're in the midst of a pandemic. Public Health England found that death rates from COVID-19 were highest among people from black and Asian ethnic groups. Why is this exactly? Is it to do with race? Or are there other reasons which put people from BAME communities at such a disadvantage? Well, of course, the politicians said at the beginning of this crisis on both sides of the Atlantic that the virus doesn't discriminate. It turns out it does. It turns out that certainly in here in the UK, but I've seen this also amongst African-American populations in the United States, that the tendency to die from the virus absolutely does discriminate. And Britain has had to fess up for the fact of figures that demonstrate this in not just black populations, but historically Muslim, Bangladeshi, Pakistani populations, we have Jewish communities that have seen a higher number of deaths too. Now, what has been less good here is why? And actually, also, this is important because the question then begs, well, how can communities protect themselves? Now, it's clear that there are issues of structural racism. Here in Britain, we have a history in which many black people came to this country after the Second World War from the former Caribbean colonies, came to rebuild this country, and they are working on the front line. They are working in the National Health Service. They are working in our care homes. Here in London, we saw some of the early deaths were bus drivers. Why? Because they were coming into such frequent contact with people who had the disease and the viral load was overwhelming. But we've also heard and seen doctors. No one could describe the community of doctors as impoverished or poor. But the first 23 doctors that died of the virus were all black or brown here in the UK. And there's been some suggestion that actually, in an employment context, the last people to say, I can't go to work, I haven't got the right PPE, I'm worried about my health are black and brown people. Whatever status they are in society, those are issues of structural racism. Now, there may well also be underlying medical issues, science issues, people have raised issues like vitamin D deficiency. They haven't been proven. But neither have black communities been given the advice as to how to deal with that. Should you be taking supplements? Well, maybe you should. But how much? Because actually, vitamin D supplements can be toxic if taken at the wrong levels. And that ought to have been coming out of the government by now. It hasn't. And you've got to ask, because black communities have been saying this, governments have been very quick to advise, wear masks, socially distance, shield if you've got an underlying issue. When we were talking about the general population, but have been far slower on advice in relation to specific population overrepresented in the death statistics. Again, it comes back to issues of structural discrimination and racism. And that's the exception in communities like the one I represent here in London. So what I would want to say in relation to this is here in the UK, there's tremendous grief in black and minority ethnic communities because of the death rate. In black and minority ethnic communities, it's hard not to know someone who's died. I lost an uncle. And I watched his funeral on Zoom. I lost a schoolmate just age 45. One of my best friends has lost his father. In the local mosque, they've lost 20. In another, they've lost seven. My senior rabbi has died. So you're getting the sense in the community I'm from, this is real. But of course, there are still communities, usually more middle class, whiter, where of course, you know someone who might have had the virus, but you may well not yet know anyone who's died from the virus. That is a different experience. And then if you put on top of that, Black Lives Matter and issues of structural racism in the criminal justice system, kids being harassed by the police or might be dying. And in this country, we also have the Windrush scandal in which older black citizens have been denied their rights, pensions, housing, aborted, detained. There's a lot of grief, concern, and anger. Well, you've mentioned, of course, structural racism and of course, issues of policing. And you've been in the forefront of this. Two weeks ago, Cressida Dick, the commissioner of London's Metropolitan Police Service, told the Commons Home Affairs Committee that she didn't think institutional racism was a helpful or appropriate way to describe the force which she leads. And in the coronavirus lockdown, young black men were stopped and searched by police more than 20,000 times in London. The equivalent to more than a quarter of all black 15 to 24-year-olds in the capital. Is this a case of denial or willful blindness by the police commissioner? Well, look, you're right. Black men are nine times more likely to be stopped and searched. Let me just be clear. I have been stopped and searched. I was first stopped and searched when I was 12. I was patted down with such force by four police officers that I wet myself. I was stopped and searched in the 2005 general election campaign. I was with my brother. He is a magistrate in our courts. We were surrounded by police. Guns came out. I was terrified. But when they realized I was a local MP, I was let on my way. And what I think people don't always understand is that for black communities, that sense of harassment is real. It's not that the police should never stop and search. They do have to do that. But it should be intelligence-led and done with an appropriate level of dignity. When it's used as a blunt tool, I'm afraid it's counterproductive because the very communities that you rely on for intelligence and support withdraw. And I found in the work that I did on the criminal justice system that trust levels in policing and in criminal justice are very low in minority populations, much lower than in the average population. The first inquiry after the murder of Stephen Lawrence 20 years ago found institutional racism in the police, raised real issues about recruitment of black and minority ethnic police officers. And let us be clear, the minority ethnic population and black population here in the United Kingdom is around about 14%. In young people, it gets up to about 19% in the country. We are a minority community. What is the percentage of police officers that are black across the country? Well, it's an astounding 1%. Real issue. A real issue. Because if you're in the business of a police service and not a police force, it has to come from the people and be of the people. We've had incidents involving tasers, involving aggressive stop and search. We've seen the videos flying around. We had an officer in our own country kneeling on the neck of a young black man just last week. And so I do recognize some improvements in the Met, but I don't recognize the picture that Cressida Dick is painting of policing. And I don't think that it recognizes the real concern that exists not just in black communities, but in, I think, majority communities that we have not got to where we need to get. And of course, the recruitment of black and minority ethnic officers is not just that. That doesn't fix the problem. If it fixed the problem, there would not be problems in the New York Police Department or the LA Police Department. But it's the first cornerstone, at least. And we haven't even reached that here in the UK. But where there are problems in the United States, people tend to understand that they are institutional. They are systemic. And so it's very worrying that that acknowledgment has not been met and not been sufficiently understood by the leadership of police here in the UK. Two questions on, again, on policing. You mentioned that there is a role, a place for stop and search, but it should be intelligence led. Are there any other safeguards you think should be put in place to make sure that this is done in an appropriate way and a way that recognizes the dignity of people on streets of London? Absolutely. Let me just say that we're in a paradox here because many of those watching may remember that there were very, very serious riots in the UK in the summer of 2011, riots that rampaged across the country went on for days. They started in my constituency in Tottenham. And there was a big debate about stop and search, stop and search that was not intelligence led, being used as a blunt tool. And it was recognized at that time by the Met Commissioner at that time, by the mayor at that time, that we needed to change. Who was the mayor? The mayor was Boris Johnson. Who was the home secretary? Home secretary was Theresa May. And that led to changes in 2014 that meant that there were safeguards put in place, ensuring that it was intelligence led, ensuring that there was a record, ensuring that there was a free of transparency in the way that the police had to communicate with the person that they were stopping and searching. If you like a small bureaucracy that was set up, and guess what happened? Stop and search debated. The pressure came out of the system. And then something else was achieved, political consensus on this vexed issue. Very sadly, in 2019, many of these rules were got rid of. So we're back to where we were. And this has now been a perennial debate. It goes back to what was called the Sus Laws that led to the Brixton Riots back in 1981 and the Scarman Report. And Britain seems to want to continually play a ping-pong with this issue. Stop and search here in the UK. Stop and frisk in much of America. And carding as it's termed in Canada. It's the same issue globally. It brings youth that are often on the street in ways that white middle class youth are not into contact with the police. Let me give you an example of this. I'm not going to pick on Tufts because it's such a wonderful university. I'm going to pick on Oxford University. I'm going to pick on Random College at Oxford University. And if I said to you that there's a young man sitting in a college at Oxford University, he's finished his lectures and he is rolling a joint. I don't think anybody participating in this webinar would be that surprised. If I said I'm going to call the police on that young man, I think there's quite a lot of people who would think that is a waste of police time and resources. Now let's put that young man, not at Oxford University, let's put a young man like him, same age as him, probably a different color to him, on a housing estate, public housing in my constituency or I don't know, downtown New York somewhere, not downtown, actually not downtown, Harlem, the Bronx, whatever. That young man is not a negated community. He's in the stairwell. He's come down the stairwell, he lives on the 20th floor. He too is smoking a joint, he's outside. He shares his flat with his mother and three brothers and sisters. He's going to come into contact with the police sooner or later. And guess what? He's going to get a criminal record. And sadly, in my country, when he gets that criminal record, he's going to find it very hard to work. He might lead to a life of crime. You know the figures, you know the statistics. The point is it's the same offense with very different public reaction and treatment. And that is the reality of stop and search when it's not properly intelligence-led and it's disproportionate impact on different groups. And that is why it remains a controversial issue. This brings me to the topic of the justice system more broadly and the justice system in the UK. You said earlier that you had led this review, which the former Tory Prime Minister, David Cameron, had asked you to conduct a review about overrepresentation of Black, Asian, and minority ethnic individuals in the criminal justice system. You delivered your, it was quite a substantial review, overall, I think 108 page review under terrorism A in 2017. And you concluded that there was a significant problem in the criminal justice system itself, particularly the youth justice system. What part did structural racism play in this? Well, let me just take you back because I was surprised but pleased when David Cameron asked me back in 2015-16 to lead this work on disproportionality in our criminal justice system. He was reaching across the political aisle to a member of parliament in a different political party. And by doing that, he created a political consensus on a very difficult issue. I was able to look at these issues globally in order to inform what we should be doing here in the UK. And what I found globally is that in nearly every country in the world, there is over preponderance, if you like, of minorities in the prison and in the criminal justice system. But what was interesting at that time, and it's extraordinary, I say this because we're not living in these times today, and it was only four or five years ago, at that time, there was an emerging political consensus about these issues. Oh, of course, I traveled the United States, spoke to many people in the United States about these issues. At the time, think back to the Hillary Clinton, Donald Trump campaign. What had happened was the Republicans were raising issues around federal prisons, a bloated system that was wasting money and challenging some decisions that were made in the Clinton era in relation to the imprisonment and the mass incarceration of black people in the United States. So there was an emerging consensus in the United States. There was an emerging consensus in Canada, as Justin Trudeau was coming to power. There was an emerging consensus in New Zealand. I picked these countries because they have common law legal traditions. And today, my God, Donald Trump and Boris Johnson and the populace, that consensus is broken. So that's the most important thing. You do need political consensus on these issues. And of course, as I looked at the system, what I wanted to do was come up with practical solutions to change the system. I did find examples of structural racism, particularly in the prison system. I found some examples of good practice, actually, in our jury system, in the Crown Prosecution Service we have here. And I found some other challenges in other parts of our justice system. I was concerned about the lack of diversity in our judiciary and really concerned about the problems in our youth justice system particularly. So that was the situation. It remains the situation because a lot of the recommendations I concluded have not been implemented by the government. These acts of political consensus require good faith. And to some extent, there's been a degree of bad faith most recently in relation to parts of my review, which I'm very, very upset about. Because you cannot kick these issues into it. And let me just be clear about this, actually. I mean, this is a really important point. When you ask someone like me to conduct a review, it's really important because black communities put some faith in that. And if they see that actually we can have no faith in that process, David Lamb's recommendations have not been implemented, then the government will not take it seriously. Then I'm afraid what you get is people taking it in the streets. David, you made 35 recommendations. And as you said, less than half of the recommendations have been implemented. Why is that the case? And do you have any confidence that a government led by Boris Johnson will implement these recommendations? Well, I don't believe you should be in politics if you're sort of permanently cynical and you lack hope. And so I have faith in the work I did and the wonderful people on my advisory board, by the way, of all political descriptions that got me at that point, I know that ultimately to fix the problem, the government will need to get on with my recommendations. Do I have confidence when I'm afraid in this current administration in the UK, there are individual advisors to Boris Johnson who were the only people who rubbish the recommendations at the time they were published. And they're now advisors in number 10. And they do not have the confidence of black communities. They do not have the confidence of progressive communities. They are losing the confidence, in fact, to the British population. If you followed some of what Dominic Cummings has been up to during this coronavirus period. So do I have faith? Probably not, not with this administration. But do I ultimately know that the direction of travel that I set out, the spirit of my recommendations will need to be implemented if we had to fix this problem, of course I do. When you published your review, you wrote an op-ed in The Guardian and you said, the situation is a social time bomb. Will this bomb explode? Well, I haven't got a crystal ball. Abbey. Try, David. I haven't got a crystal ball, but I'm worried. I'm worried for a couple of reasons. I'm worried by the populist nationalists. I'm worried by the stoking of white supremacy. I'm worried when these things come from the top of countries, those who lead countries, it's like waving a red flag in front of a ball and imagining that that ball is the racist sitting in a police department somewhere. And so these are very worrying and frightening times. Times have been tough in Western democracies since the 2008 crash. And guess what? They're about to get tougher with the recession, depression to follow. And history tells us what happens when we get populists in charge. Rather than look at the issues and aging population, automation, artificial intelligence, how we fix our health care, how we skill up and educate our population, these are the tough issues. Rather than focus on those issues intently, deal with the inequalities, dirty money, corruption, international interference in our democracies, these big issues, the easier thing to do is to find some scapegoats. And the scapegoat is the Mexican crossing the border, the Muslim moving into your street. The European Union and their bureaucracy and it stirs folk up and it doesn't address the issues and then people get angry and madder. Those are the times that we are in. The hope for me are the millennials and generation Y, I'm seeing an articulacy on issues of race amongst those young people. And let me be clear, white young people, of course, and black young people, that I did not see in my generation or the generation above us. And that fills me with tremendous hope in the years to come. The problem is, of course, that that generation has some way from the levers of power. So I haven't got a crystal ball. I can't answer your question head on, but I give you an indication sincerely of both the opportunity that exists at this time and the moral hazard that we're faced with. I entirely agree about the really toxic influence which populists and extremist leaders have in the situation. But the media are also a powerful force in shaping public perceptions about race and racial injustice. What do you think of the British media's coverage of the Black Lives Matter movement? Well, what my experience has been is that I've had big companies ringing up, saying, what more can we do? I've had companies that were made a lot of money during the period of enslavement saying, what more can I do? And I have had major broadcasters and major newspapers that were not traditionally associated with these issues saying, please, can we do this event with you? What more can we do? Can you advise us? So I do want to say, I do think this has been a moment and that would include the media where these conversations are being had and action is being called for that has not been quite present before. Of course there's been parts of the media that have been plurals. Now, the UK doesn't quite have the Fox News, cable contacts of the United States but of course we have got some tabloid elements in our media. And we have had far-right groups. We had protests in London from far-right groups and the behavior was horrendous, really, really worrying, marching down Whitehall, standing outside Churchill statue. But on the whole, relative to some of what we've seen in the past, I think some of the media have behaved very, very well indeed. But I do want to say this. I mean, this is important. We need to be careful that we don't give the impression that this debate is about hearing Black people. Now you might say, that's a strange thing for David and I me to say, why is he saying that? Well, let me explain. Black people have been writing about the truth of structural racism for hundreds of years. James Baldwin, Maya Angelou, Toni Morrison, these are some of the greatest writers of modern times. Black people have been laughing at the realities of structural racism for decades. Eddie Murphy, Dave Chappelle, Chris Rock, my own country, Lenny Henry, in order to penetrate and get a message across. Black people have been singing about the pain. I'm not going to name all the artists because we wouldn't end this webinar. We've been making plays, theater. The question is not the reality of our experience. In fact, some might say that that video of George Floyd dying in eight minutes, 46 seconds, was just another episode of Black pain, that becomes more kish and garish as the world looks in and is so over familiar with the sight of Black pain. The real question of this moment is not about Black people. The real question is about white people. The real question is about whiteness. And that could be the problem that actually majority white communities say, finally we have heard and finally we must act. You mentioned a minute ago, Churchill. The Black Lives Matter has reignited a campaign for the removal of statues of slave owners, slave traders, segregationists, colonialists and imperialists. And of course, the statue of Churchill, right there in Parliament Square was defaced. The statue of slave trader Edward Coulson was dramatically toppled in Bristol and thrown into the harbor. And there is a student led campaign to remove the statue of Cecil Robes from Oxford's Oriole College. What's your view about this? Well, my view is that holding up people like Edward Coulston who was responsible for over 19,000 Black people dying in the Atlantic slave trade. Holding up figures like Cecil Rhodes who had such responsibilities for apartheid is totally unacceptable in 2020. And it is entirely legitimate when we're talking about statues to say statues are who we icon, you know, we say these are icons. These are symbols to deify when you put someone as a statue. Now, I'm not into not, I think you can have these things in museums given context, explanation and debate about both their virtues and their sins but in a multicultural, multi-ethnic, forward-looking democracy, you cannot hold up people who have been responsible for brutal murder, genocide and death. Now, my own view is that I wouldn't bring Churchill into this story, I wouldn't actually. And that's because there is a debate about aspects of Churchill's contribution to history in relation to colonialism, the partition of India and of course there is. But in the end, it is also the case that this is a man who looked fascism in the face and fought back hard and holds a particular place, not just in UK history but global history because of that moment. And I don't diminish that moment because I'm afraid we're seeing fascism. Again, I saw images of fascism in Charlottesville. You see it when innocent Jewish brothers and sisters congregating in a synagogue, a slain. You see it in those who marched down Whitehall in the shape of the organisation EDL and others in our own country. So I take that very seriously. So I would not bring, I think we need to be careful but there is a debate around decolonising the curriculum. Being honest about this period here in the UK and in much of Europe, it's very, very necessary. History cannot just be about those who won. The story of slavery is not just about abolition. It's not just about the work of William Wilberforce. It's about resistance. It's about my ancestors who fought back. It's about the scramble for Africa. Look at those straight lines that cut communities. Ethnic identities, people's homes and then depleted and plundered resources. And that history needs to be understood. And that is a very live debate. And it should be across university campuses, across schools, across education. Very, very necessary if we were to move forward. It's a global population. Talking about your ancestors, your immediate ancestors, parents and the parents and I would imagine grandparents of your friends were part of the Windrush generation. And you mentioned earlier on the Windrush scandal. Your speech in parliament during the Windrush scandal which of course I played to my students in my migration class last year was one of the great speeches in British politics. And you won GQ politician of the year for your work on Windrush. And of course on relating to the Grenfell fire disaster. For our audience here in the United States who may not be familiar with Windrush and what it was about. Could you explain the nature of the scandal and what it revealed about racial injustice? Well, I write about this in my book, Tribes which came out just a few months ago and I go into this at length. So if you want to know more about it, then get the book. But in short, these were people who it is told came to the UK from 1948 onwards to rebuild this country when it lay in rubble after the Second World War. There would be no national health service without the black women that came from the Caribbean and West Indies to populate it as nurses. There would be no national railway system without the men that came and broke their backs rebuilding it and populating it. And the modern tube system that we have in London was staffed by these people. And somehow, Britain forgot that history but because Britain doesn't want to talk about the reality of its period of enslavement during the lonely it doesn't really understand why those people came in 1948. These were people who contributed to the Second World War effort, whitewashed out of their history. But these were people who were pushed from the Caribbean because there was no work in the Caribbean, no jobs in the Caribbean. The plantocracies of the slave trade had come to an end. Labor, there were huge labor shortages. And of course they wanted to get the mother country so they could send money back for their families and seek a better life for their children. That story is not told. And that is the story of what happened after the end of enslavement and the impoverishment of black people in the United States, in the South and of course in the Caribbean. And so there was a push as well as a pull and then what happened of course, which is a scandal is that these people arrived as British citizens because of course they were British citizens. They were part of the British empire. That story was turned in the minute you took my answers from Africa across the world. They were British citizens. But of course successive governments changed the rules on them and they didn't even tell them. And then we got a hostile environment, a hostile environment because we had far right of forces, people like Nigel Farage in Britain that became very mainstream in the debates around the EU. Theresa May introduced a hostile environment that turned school teachers, doctors into border guards, paperwork, demonstrate you're British and these people who gave so much and took so little were treated as imposters in their own country. Denied pensions, denied housing. Some of them were detained in prisons and detention centres and some of them died. Shipped back to countries like Jamaica, countries that they'd never been to or had left at the age of two or three with their parents. And this is particularly important today, Abdul because today, yesterday, a woman called Paulette Wilson died age 63, Windrush without the full compensation that she deserved. And so this story continues, the scandal continues. And let me just give you this final point. Even to claim the compensation, the standard that these people have to meet when explaining their losses, their pensions, their employment, their housing, the government have put them to the standard of beyond reasonable doubt, the criminal standard treating these people as if they are criminals. It is a permanent stain on the United Kingdom. It will never go away. And it is a powerful reminder of what happens when you don't face up to the truths of structural racism and scientific racism that gave us this story that sits deep in the soul that says that there was one group of human beings who happen to be white, that have more status, are cleverer and deserve more privileges than other human beings who happen to be black or brown. And the dismantling of that mistruth despite hundreds of years old remains as George Floyd death demonstrated a struggle that will continue, I think, for decades to come and long after we are no longer here. David, the global reach of the Black Lives movement has put a new focus on racism in sport. Euro football fan, soccer on the side of the Atlantic and an avid supporter of Spurs, I wouldn't tell you which team I support in the league. This is the sport. But we are all Spurs supporters today. The sport is consistently marred by racist abuse that black footballers face on the pitch. Should footballers walk off the field if they're racially abused in order to bring about change? Of course they should, but it shouldn't come to that. It should never come to that because the forces that govern football should be absolutely hard as nails on the racist polluting the game. And you've got to ask why this is not the case. Clubs should be fined beyond belief when their fans hurl racist beliefs, racist truths. People should be banned from flying to participate in matches across Europe and we see that degree of racism. Football is a multi-billion-dollar business and that technology has not been deployed to kick out the racist from stadiums when we have fingerprint technology. Irish technology. So there's something about football's governance and its inability to act that suggests a complacency about the issue. It should not be for the individual player to have to walk off. The issue should have been fixed by those who govern the game. The issue of football governors, is it linked to the fact that at present we have very few black, Asian and minority ethnic coaches and managers across the Premier League and the English football league and recently there's a scheme which has been rolled out to help more BME players become full-time coaches and managers. Is that scheme enough? Is it in the right direction? Look, it's absolutely the case that there are issues. You know, we call it the sort of snowy peaks. As you go up in the organisation, you don't see diversity at the top and that is absolutely the case in football. But look, let's be clear, it's the case in nearly every sector of our economy and public life. I see it in universities. We see it in police forces. We see it in the companies that are the FTSE 100 in our country. So, this is the reality. I mentioned it in terms of the judiciary. I mentioned it in terms of policing. And I think it's important to get across to US friends that when we talk about black communities in the context of Europe, it's really important to understand, these are minority communities. Black people are 3%. And when you're dealing with in a democracy with minorities, you need allies. And allies beyond your racial group have got to be active. Being an ally is a verb. It means doing. Not just talking. And because the truth of being a minority is that sometimes the majority doesn't see, doesn't know, doesn't care. And that is certainly as you go up in organizations can be a real issue. You mentioned, of course, universities. I was just wondering, you studied at SOAS, which has a reputation as a race conscious school. What impact did you have? Did it have on you as a student and the importance of having a school which was race conscious? Well, SOAS was a wonderful institution. I love being there. What I liked about SOAS and what's very special about the School of Oriental and African Studies in London is the opportunity to examine important subjects like law, history, music, not entirely with the Eurocentric canon in mind. And that is incredibly special. So if you like, it's the business of addressing the decolonization that is now widespread across higher education or at least being discussed as a widespread way across higher education. It is not to say that SOAS was without its issues. Believe me, it's had its issues at the time I was at SOAS. There were issues of equity between, for example, study of Southeast Asian countries and African ones. There weren't enough African professors. There were issues at SOAS. But it was this very special and is this very special institution that I enjoyed tremendously. But I might say, look, I then went to Harvard and I found Harvard also to be diverse. There's an odyssey that we sometimes see from the UK's black community to the United States and I made that and drew great power and strength from my African American brothers and sisters. I remain great friends with people like Cornell West and Henry Lewis Gates, students I studied with. So I was lucky to go to two great universities that were not without their faults, but actually I certainly was able to explore these issues that we're talking about tonight at great depth for which I'm very, very grateful indeed. A final question then, David. You've mentioned, of course, the pain which every black person feels and every black person really in these societies have experienced some form of racial discrimination, one kind or another. And at the same time, I know you are a person of strong religious faith. Is there a verse in the Bible which sustains your faith while confronting so much racism, injustice and inequality? My faith is very important to me. Thank you for mentioning that, but actually I'm not going to pick up a verse in the Bible on this occasion. The truth that I'm going to use is what my mother used to say to me. And she used to say it with great power and great force whenever I was feeling, you know, slightly full of pity for myself or the world is upon me or whatever the problem was. She used to look me in the eye and she used to say, David, live up to your ancestors' prayers. And that remains a powerful truth. It is to say that however hard I found it, it is not as hard as what my ancestors bore. And you know, for most human beings, some way back, that is in fact the story. But I suppose when I think of my ancestors and I think of those who didn't make it across the Atlantic, I think of those who were stripped of their culture, stripped of their identity, stripped of their names. I think of my male ancestors who may have watched their wives or daughters raped, who may have been moved from one plantation to the other and families broken apart. And I think of that legacy over hundreds of years. It is patently obvious that it's going to take time to address those pains and that those legacies live on and ricochet throughout time. And in the end, I am here speaking to you. And what I can do is live up to their prayers. That even though they might not survive, their descendants would. And so that is the truth I leave with you because we are still here, brother. And we are. David, on that hopeful note, it's been a pleasure to have you on global perspectives as our inaugural guests. And thank you so much for never forgetting from whence you came. Thank you. Thank you very much. I really appreciate it. I look forward to getting back to Tufts physically, not virtually. It would be wonderful to have you in person again. Thank you.