 Hey everybody, today we are debating whether or not veganism is a moral obligation and we are starting right now. Ladies and gentlemen, thrilled to have you here for another epic debate as today we are having a classic philosophy debate and also a contemporary and important issue, perhaps one of the more important issues of our day and want to let you know though, regardless of what side of this issue you are on, we want you to feel welcome. We are a nonpartisan channel, which means we want you to feel welcome, whether you come from the vegan side, the non-vegan side, atheist, Christian, Democrat, Republican, you name it, we hope you feel welcome. And if you enjoy debates, consider hitting that subscribe button as we have many more debates coming up. So for example, you'll see at the bottom right of your screen tomorrow night, temporarily Destiny and Vosh will be setting aside their differences for this unique circumstance where they will be debating against two nationalists. James Alsup and Eric Stryker on the topic of race and police brutality. So with that, I want to let you know for tonight's debate, it's going to be a fairly flexible kind of format where basically each side is going to have a roughly 10 to 12 minute opening statement that they can divide up in whatever way they'd like, followed by open conversation for about an hour and then 30 minutes of Q&A. If you have a question, feel free to fire that question into the old live chat if you tag me with at modern day debate, it makes it easier for me to get every question in that Q&A list. Also, Super Chat is an option. So if you use Super Chat, it will not only bump your question to the top of the list, but whether it be a question or comment, you can make a friendly, you could say comment or question toward the speakers. They of course would get a chance to respond to. And with that, we are going to move into this debate. Want to say right up front, very excited. I've linked all of the speakers in this description box for this debate. So that way, if you're listening and you're like, hmm, I like that, you can hear plenty more by clicking on their links below and just want to give a huge welcome as we really do appreciate all of our debaters here. They're the lifeblood of the channel. They make it as fun as it is. And so first, I want to say for the first time, we have Anna and Brian really just thrilled to have you guys here. Thanks so much. Really appreciate it. Also, their channel is called Those Annoying Vegans in the description. But Anna and Brian, thanks so much for being here. Thank you for having us. Thank you so much. Absolutely. And like I said, their channel is a they have a good sense of humor, self deprecating sense of humor titled Those Annoying Vegans. And so check it out. I think you'll be charmed folks and want to say we welcome smoky and godless girl back as we've had them before and we are thrilled to have them back again. So thanks so much, both smoky and godless girl for being. Hi. Pleasure. Thank you. Absolutely. And with that, we will kick it into debate mode. So as I said, opening statements of roughly 12 minutes and given that I think it would be safe to say that if we are discussing whether or not venism is a moral obligation, Anna and Brian, are you guys good with starting us off tonight? Sure. Yeah. Thanks so much. The floor is all yours. All right. Well, thank you so much for having us. As you all know, we are those annoying vegans, also known as Anna and Brian, we are vegan activists. And I guess what we wanted to start with was something we've realized lately is that many people don't seem to understand what veganism is. People think it's a diet, for example, you know, we hear that a lot, a vegan diet, but no one to this day has ever been able to tell us what a vegan diet is. And that's because veganism is an ethical lifestyle. It's not a diet. It's the lifestyle that seeks to exclude animal exploitation as far as what is possible and practicable. And that has components that extend beyond what we eat. Veganism is the belief that animal use for food, clothing, entertainment, laboratory testing, or any other purpose is wrong. And so arguing for veganism is essentially arguing for animal rights. Now, we are aware that ethics and morality are complex topics and they can be difficult to define. But in dealing with morality, we're generally talking about maximizing well-being, minimizing pain and suffering, striving for fairness and equality, freedom, choice, etc. Effectively, the Golden Rule do on to others as you would have done on to you. Now, when it comes to the food we eat, there, even though we're not going to be speaking specifically about health because we are, you know, vegan for the animals, just to touch on it briefly, there is not a single nutrient found in animal flesh or the stuff that comes out of their bodies that cannot be found in non-animal sources. So it is not an unreasonable statement to say that animal products are unnecessary for human health, which means we choose to eat them. It also means we choose to enslave and exploit and mutilate and rape and murder animals needlessly for temporary taste pleasure. Now, discriminating based on species is just as arbitrary as discriminating based on race, gender, sexual preference, or any other trivial reasons we discriminate against one another. Yes, and a significant trait to consider would be the trait of sentience. So to be sentient means to have a subjective experience of life. We value our lives. We want to keep living them. We experience love, pain, joy, sadness, curiosity, fear, anxiety, and sorrow. Every single one of us perceives the world around us in our own unique way. And non-human animals, they're sentient too. The Cambridge Declaration on consciousness was drafted in 2012 by a prominent international group of cognitive neuroscientists, and they concluded that humans are not unique in possessing the neurological substrates that generate consciousness. So non-human animals, including all mammals and all birds, which are the animals that people eat, and many other creatures, including octopuses, they too possess these neurological substrates. And this I think is obvious to anyone who's ever lived with a non-human animal or even spent time with them at length. Non-human animals have personalities, they have preferences, they communicate with us, and they too have a subjective experience of life. So since we value sentience in the human context, in order to be morally consistent, we must also value it in the non-human context. And so if it is morally wrong to needlessly take the life of a human animal, it is also morally wrong to needlessly take the life of a non-human animal. And that's basically what speciesism seeks to combat. For those that aren't familiar with the term, it's called speciesism. This is the discrimination of certain animals based purely on species, and there really is no consistent metric by which we employ speciesism. We are the oppressors, and we simply pick and choose which animals we love and which animals we exploit and murder. So in the United States, for example, we murder pigs by the millions, we rape cows to keep them constantly pregnant and producing breast milk, and we kill baby male chickens on their first day of life simply because they don't lay eggs. And they're considered a waste product by the egg industry. Yet, we do treat dogs and cats and dolphins and, you know, bald eagles very differently. And different cultures pick and choose different species that they want to love or exploit. Now, people tend to look at non-human animals through their eyes and not the animals. But when we're dealing with issues of justice, we must always examine the situation through the eyes of the victim. And the food choices that we make have consequences. They're mostly unseen consequences, which is how the animal egg industry wants it. If the general public knew, for example, that sentient beings with the cognition of a three-year-old human being are regularly gassed to death just so that we can eat two strips of bacon, if they knew that and if they witnessed it firsthand, they would probably change their buying habits, which is why slaughterhouses will most likely never give you a free tour of their facility. And so we are causing needless suffering, needless death, for mere minutes of sensory pleasure. And we, alongside so many others, want this to end. We are the only ones with the power to do anything about it. And so we have the responsibility to do something. You got it. Thanks so much, Anna and Brian. Really appreciate that opening. And now we will kick it over to Smokey and Godless Girl for their case on answering no to the question being debated tonight. The floor is all yours. Beautiful. Thank you. I don't think I think Godless says she doesn't really have an opening, right, Godless? Right. OK. Yeah. So I'll go and go into mine. Appreciate it. Thank you so much, James. Thank you, everyone in the audience. Thank you, everyone, for attending Anna. Brian, thank you so much. You people are incredibly sweet and kind. Thank you for being here and thank you for engaging in this debate with us. To me, this is a competition of culture. Two cultures that both evolved alongside each other now stand in strong opposition, both claiming ethical and practical stances for their worldviews. But when applied to scrutiny, is veganism even tenable as more than a religious urban lifestyle? The answer is, of course, no. And I find vegans regularly avoiding addressing some of the potentially severe ramifications of their desire to impose their lifestyle on all of us as a mainstream cultural norm. Let's explore briefly a few of my core issues with the modern veganism movement as I see it. Number one, vegans attempt to use factory farming as a justification to eliminate all animal products. Not all farms are factory farms and not all factory farms are cool to their animals. Today's standards of animal care have been raised to levels unprecedented in any other culture or time in history. Yet I would even agree that perhaps that is not enough. We do still have large mass producing factory farms that engage in treatment that many would call cruel, but that is a product of our culture and one that the vegans time and again fail to address. We have factory farms because of the push of cultural dynamics. We wanted cheaper meat. We didn't want animals in close proximity to urban centers where diseases could be spread. We invented sustainable freezing methods and we lost a valuable relationship with the meat that was serving as our sustenance as we near eliminated the existence of small local family farms through fierce regulation and being snuffed out in competition by the large meat packing industry that was allowed to grow naturally and unchecked for decades providing a product at a cheaper cost that killed the smaller industry. This was only catalyzed by government enforcement by the FDA, which rushed to focus to the safety of the product with near zero regard for the treatment of the animals that very well provided the product and a steady increase in demand that pushed priority of production over standards of treatment. Number two, vegans don't seem to have any actual ethical environmental concerns. Granted vegans are quick to virtue signal that they care about life and the treatment of animals yet seemingly don't realize they are simultaneously calling for the genocide and eradication of entire species. Animals and factory farms are no doubt the product of a very genetically watered down stock, selectively bred for its growth, size and short longevity. These are not animals bred with the potential of a long life, let alone one that could possibly sustain without the support of humans. These animals have essentially evolved alongside us. Can you picture a cow, sheep, chicken, farm pig or farm goat being able to survive in the wild? Sheep are so stupid, they will follow each other off a cliff if the shepherd isn't watching and can drown in an inch of water, cancel hunting in the Midwest and all the deer will go extinct in a couple generations. Not to mention, who knows how many other wild species might be affected by the sudden lack of pasture and farm animals that may also have evolved alongside and rely upon the domesticated stock. Has any vegan ever even supplied an environmental impact report to support their stances on policy and enforcement? I have yet to see one. Truthfully, I would like to think that if vegans had an actual functional moral compass, they would push for improved treatment of animals and the cultural resurgence of local family farms which naturally tend to give their animals a higher standard of care and aren't held to a production standard that catalyzed justification for cruel treatment. With less demand for factory farm products, we could see a cultural shift to once again value the quality of the treatment of animals that produce our meat and bring back local butcher shops that only stock local fresh products. Vegans could buy products only from these types of producers. They could use capitalism to help them sway culture in their direction of ethics and help the farms that are trying to do right by their animals. But no, they want it all to be eliminated and all animal products to be canceled and potentially mass genocide of millions of animals supposedly in the name of ethics. This now brings me to the final point in my opening argument, which of course, economical. Vegans seem to suffer from very shallow tunnel vision when they consider potential economic ramifications of their policy pushes. There are more to consider than I have time to mention so let me focus on a big one which is the issue of an economic vacuum. A standard truth of humanity is that when a lucrative business is outlawed, a black market always tends to rush in to fill the vacancy. Would animals suffering decrease? Sure. But at the cost of the mass slaughter of millions of animals and potentially the insurgence of a black market meat industry where the treatment of animals would likely verge on monstrous. At levels, no modern factory farm could get away with under current regulations. One practical example is the exotic pet trade. Because it is outlawed in many countries, a very profitable, very lucrative black market has risen up that can make millions off overpriced illegal stock that fills their pockets with profit while they hide the animals they are trading from authorities and severely disregard their treatment in the process. Vegans just don't seem to connect these dots. Even if you've got your way and we completely culled all the farm stock to satiate your ethics, there is no saying you won't open the door to just a smaller population of animals being treated worse than anything we have in the meat industry today. Either way, you might conquer a big hurdle with lots of people if you could finally find a way and make vegan food actually appetizing to the general public. For wanting to push this all into a radically different lifestyle, you should at least try to create some variety that actually tastes good and doesn't require a high diet of soy and the insurgence of estrogen to the body that it provides. And with that, I yield. So can I open it up? So I didn't have to open it, Samar? If you would like, you can add, you've got a bit of time left. Well, no, I was just gonna start. Oh, I see what you're saying. Starting the conversation. What's your definition of veganism? Veganism is the... According to... According to the vegan society, it's living a lifestyle that seeks to exclude the exploitation of animals as far as what's possible and practical. Okay, so it's not gonna include like eating things like roadkill and stuff? Like if I eat some eggs on a free range farm, you don't have a problem with that? Well, where did the egg laying chicken come from? Like if the eggs are just gonna get thrown away anyway. But where did the egg, like if you're, if you have like a, you're effectively arguing like for a backyard hen or something to that effect? Yeah, like if you're, if the eggs are just gonna get thrown away otherwise, then what's the problem with me eating it? Cause that's not contributing to animal suffering, right? We can, so with eggs and egg laying and that whole thing, that's a, that's the whole thing we can get into. I mean, for one, where did those chickens come from? Were they... Well, how is that relevant? Hold on, one second. Just to be sure that we hear the rest. Oh, I wasn't sure if you were done yet, Anna. Sorry about that. I don't, maybe I interject. Can I ask a question? No, hold on one second. Just want to be sure that you were done, Anna. I wasn't sure. Maybe I jumped the gun too early. No, it's okay. I don't see how where the chickens came from is relevant. Godless girl, one second. Oh, sorry. Go ahead. And you too, so, okay. So I, you were, weren't done. Just want to be sure. Let me put it in a nutshell. Let's pretend the chickens came from, someone rescued them from a bad situation or someone went to a shelter and rescued the chickens. What do they do with the eggs? What most sanctuaries do is they feed the eggs back to the chickens because many of these chickens, the chickens of today are not like the forest fowl, the wild chickens. They were bred to lay an egg pretty much every day, which is not natural. What is natural is one to two eggs a month, kind of like us. And so what happens is sanctuaries feed the eggs back to the chickens to replenish the calcium and iron that they lost in laying them in the first place. It's a very intensive process. Sometimes it looks like they're giving birth. We have two hands and one of them was raised for egg laying. And the other thing is trying to get away. The last thing is that we're trying to get away from viewing them as a commodity, as something that we can take from them. We have dogs and cats and rabbits and we don't take anything from them, you know. What do you do with your eggs? What do you do with your eggs? We feed them to the chickens. Well, is it not kind of, I mean, ethically wrong in your worldview or, because you were just kind of saying like the sanctuaries do it and that's kind of like a bad thing? No, no, it's a natural behavior for chickens to eat their own eggs to replenish the calcium and iron. But you eating eggs is unethical. We don't eat their eggs because- But is it unethical for you to eat their eggs? Yeah, because we would be seeing them as- But it's ethical for them to cannibalize their eggs? I'm having a hard time with this. Well, that's what they do that in nature. Like in fact, it's such a common behavior that you can Google it and there's a wiki how on how to prevent chickens from eating their own eggs. And one of the solutions is to call them because to the animal ag industry, it's considered an annoying behavior. But it is a natural behavior. And so we just give them the eggs back. We're getting off the point of what I was trying to make. Say the chickens died. So there's no chickens to feed the eggs to. You care if I eat the eggs then? You're saying if a hen were to lay an egg and then immediately die? Yeah. Like you think with like roadkill or I'm about to throw away this plate of meat, right? That I'm not, somebody's throwing away a plate of meat. So no animal is, it's not you're not contributing to any animal suffering by eating it. But then your other option is eat this leftover meat that's gonna be thrown in the garbage or even an avocado, where the avocado is coming from Mexico where there's Mexican cartels, right? They call it green gold in Mexico. There's Mexican cartels going around killing and torturing people for their buying rights to all the lands and farmers lands, water rights in Mexico to give water to these avocados and the Mexican farmers are like losing, they're like, it's just losing all the water so they can't irrigate their own crops and just causing mass amounts of suffering. So would you eat the meat which isn't gonna contribute to any amount of suffering? Is this gonna be thrown in the garbage otherwise? Or would you contribute to suffering by eating the avocado? So there's two different points here. Just with the avocado, I don't think vegans are the only people who eat avocados. We're a very small percentage of them. Hold on one second. Let's hear him out. You heard my question though. I'm just looking for an answer in my question. You're bringing up a fringe example like eating an animal that has been hit by a car on the freeway, right? We could formulate all sorts of scenarios in which for example, theft or murder would be considered moral in this particular niche fringe example. But the vast majority of meat eating is not eating roadkill. So it's kind of a moot point to even talk about. I mean, you're not causing suffering by eating a dead corpse. I'm not asking you what your preference would be in this case. Eat the plate of meat that's being thrown away otherwise and is it contributing to any suffering or buy any of the avocado which is contributing to suffering. What would you prefer? But the plate of meat came from somewhere. It was supplied by a demand. I mean, it was... It would be supplied by a demand whether or not it was being thrown in the garbage. Even if it ends up in the garbage or ends up in a vegan stomach, it's gonna be the same case. So that's irrelevant, right? I'm asking you in this particular case, please don't avoid the question. In this particular case, would you prefer the person to eat the meat that's otherwise going to be thrown in the garbage or go and buy an avocado which is going to be contributed in suffering? How do you know the avocado is contributing to suffering? Because of where it... Because of the things that are going on in Mexico, 90% of the avocado is being... It was put on a organic farm. Look, you seem to just... I can click... If you wanna argue about this particular... You seem to not want to answer the question. I can come up with another hypothetical if you want. It just seems like you're kind of a vague issue. With hypotheticals, we can get stuck in these hypotheticals forever and we can talk about what would you do on a deserted island and a number of other scenarios that vegans are often presented with or we can talk about what is really happening where people are buying their meat from which is supermarkets. And like Smokey Saint said, most of it does come from factory farms because that was our solution to fulfilling the demand of a growing population who wants their meat cheap. Look, I'm trying to get at the issue of your definition of morality, conflicting with you wanting to promote only veganism, right? So are you just saying you're refusing to answer the question? You won't answer the question. I don't understand how that situation applies to the real world. Well, look, do you want me to come up with another? So what the definition of morality is maximizing? Well, this is just like ridiculous to your refusing to answer my question. It's being dishonest and evasive is what we're doing. The thing is, is do most people eat? Look, most people don't eat thrown out meat. Most people buy meat. I'm asking you, would you have a problem with the person eating the meat rather than the avocado? The meat that's being thrown away otherwise and is not contributing to any animal. If I could try to just clarify for Godless a little bit, try to crystal. The meat already exists. We're living in a factory farm universe where the meat exists. The meat's been killed, it's there, it's sitting on the counter, it's there. Now the person comes in and sees the meat sitting there and says, oh, I could have this meat. That's already been killed and it's sitting there and it's ready to go. Oh no, I'm a vegan. I can't eat this meat. I have to go buy an avocado. But if I go and buy that avocado, I'm also contributing to animal suffering. That's kind of what Godless Girl I think is trying to say if I'm not mistaken, Godless. Well, I mean, to me that would kind of go along the same lines as well. It's not identical to lab grown meat, but what you're saying is there's a slab of meat that exists in the world. It's already there, it's already been done, damage has happened, we can't take it back, you know, that type of thing. All right, let's let him finish his sentence. I was just clarifying, I'm sorry, I'm sorry James, I was just trying to clarify for him, that's all. Yeah, to me that sounds similar to the roadkill argument in that you're not causing the death, you're not causing the suffering, you're just eating the corpse. Yeah, so do you have a problem with it or not? Well, if you didn't buy the meat, if you're not actively creating a demand for that meat, if you just like found a dead animal. But you're not creating a demand. So that wouldn't really be a moral issue. I mean, we wouldn't eat the meat because it's a corpse and we don't view corpses as food. Okay, so I mean, you wouldn't have an objection on ethical grounds. That's what I'm trying to get you to admit is that you wouldn't have an objection on ethical grounds or something like that. I would say more so roadkill than say just a slab of meat that came from a demand that was created and propagated by consumers to consume that meat. What about my example for the deer? You know, the deer in the Midwest where they've kind of built a symbiotic relationship with us through hunting because we wiped out a lot of the wolves and stuff. So there's not the typical predatory ecosystem in the Midwest that there used to be. So if we stop hunting deer, deer go extinct. I mean, where do we draw the line about what is actually ethical here? Wait, if we stop killing deer, deer go extinct, what do you mean? Do you guys not know this? Do you not know that we are built upon a symbiotic relationship with the deer in the Midwest for hunting? That's why hunting is such a big deal over there? My symbiosis to my understanding means... We rely upon each other for survival. All right, let's let it. Well, that's contradictory because how does a deer rely on you for survival? The deer, if there's too many deer, when winter comes, there's not any food for them to eat, they all die out. You see, when we go in and hunt them, we cull the population. We take it down. But it's like this. And so now they have enough food to eat and then they're able to survive through the winter. This is standard ecological data. I'm surprised you guys don't know this. They don't have the room that they used to have because all of this land is... No, I'm talking about the woods. This is the woods. This is the woods and then there's lots of woods in the Midwest. We're talking about the woods, thank you. Yes, but human beings have displaced a lot of those woods. Should we stop hunting deer? I'm sorry, I'm just gonna make it simple. Should we stop hunting deer? Hunting is needlessly killing an animal. Okay, beautiful, thank you. That is what that is. And if you're saying that if we stop hunting, then the deer don't have enough food. So they all die. I don't know how they would all die. This is ecological data, sir. I'm really surprised by this. This is not secret info. But you're saying we hunt their numbers down to a smaller number and then the smaller number can survive but for some reason the larger number. Through the winter with less food. If they all eat all the food because no one hunts them, there's no food for the winter, they all die. It's that simple. Why would a hunter be interested in keeping up the deer population other than to continue to consume the deer meat? Because if it were up to the deer, if they have to go extinct, because that is just the way the ecosystem has evolved, then that is up to nature. What the hunter's intention is is irrelevant. What Smokey's saying is asking is, are you happy if a hunter saves deer's lives, deer life by killing some amount of deer so that a larger amount can survive if they hadn't otherwise killed them? The hunter's intention is irrelevant. Yeah, I would need to see evidence that killing deer saves deer lives. I will shoot it over to your emails if I can find it from your channel. So you're against all animal testing so you want them to just throw out medicine on the market without having tested them? There are plenty of human situations and relevantly speaking now, like with COVID-19, there are plenty of human volunteers. Right, so you're against all animal testing. Even if that leads to a greater amount of suffering in the world. What's your evidence for that? No, let's say it did. Like, well, I mean... Why would we assume... Well, wait a minute. How do we not get drugs or pharmaceuticals or anything without animal testing? We'd have to test on humans. How was that more ethical? We're involved in those methods now. We are, you know, there are... I mean, for example, a few years ago, I had a teridium in my eye and I volunteered to test these new drops. I don't think testing them on cats would be beneficial because they can't tell you if it stings or how they feel. Can they see well? You know, so there are certain... I think we're moving past that already. I mean, unfortunately, it's still pretty prevalent. I don't know if you're familiar with Peter Singer's book, but there are some horrible, horrible, horrible treatments that animals are subjected to for no reason. No, well, I disagree there. I don't see how it could possibly be no reason. If they're especially doing it for pharmaceutical studies or something like that, they're trying to see what the byproducts are so that they know what it happens to the animal body before they introduce it to humans. So what you're actually calling for, what you're actually calling for, I'm sorry to say, is to skip animal testing, go straight to humans, let humans deal with all the byproducts or the conditions that might come from not testing these on humans. You're going to increase human suffering for the sake of decreasing animal suffering and yet this is ethical, help me with this. Well, there are plenty of humans who volunteer. The animals don't volunteer. There's a Netflix documentary right now called Lennox Hill about a hospital in Manhattan that specializes in brain surgery and tumors and they were literally testing a new drug on a volunteer patient. And that's real, that happens. So that's making human beings out of the blue and forcing them into these tests. So because we have the free will to choose to be in them, we are somehow ethically excused from it. People are just going to end up volunteering because they want, because they want money. Yeah, I mean, there's lots of drug addicts that will do almost anything for people. They pay people money to be test, like guinea pigs in a test lab and then they have to sign contracts that they fucking grow, lose a hand. You know, it's okay. And then they just do it because they need the money. Or they just want to- Or they want to be helpful and be part of the solution. Could I switch the topic a little bit here? Are we cool with this? Or are we gonna get one on this? Okay. I am curious about one thing too. You guys had mentioned you live in a kind of, dense residential urban area. And you also mentioned that you rescue chickens. Are you familiar or concerned with the common diseases that farm animals carry and what they might be introducing to your neighbors in a highly dense urban environment where they might not have the immunities to farm diseases? Are you concerned with that at all? Many of our neighbors have farmed animals too. And ours- Oh, okay. So the farmed animals are catching the diseases? Hold on. Let's let them finish. Our hens are in wheelchairs. They spend most of their day indoors. Oh my God. Oh, we'll bring one on. You keep them alive in wheelchairs? That's horrible. It looks like they're feeling wheelchairs. You want to minimize suffering. You can minimize those things. That's horrible. They're not things. They're not suffering. They're eating well and they're pooping well. They just sit there all day? No, well, Jackie walks around. She's just missing a toe because she was on a slaughter truck with a 3,000 pound crate. What do you mean by wheelchair? Would you keep a dog with no legs alive? Of course. Of course, if you- Why would you not keep a dog with- Because I want to maximize well-being and minimize suffering. If you euthanize them, then they're not suffering anymore. But they're not- They're not living. I mean, if you've seen, I mean, I'm sure you've seen dogs can live with it. I mean, for that matter, why not euthanize a person who's missing an arm or a leg or two, you know? Do you want to keep, if somebody is in excruciating pain, do you want to keep them alive? It's up to them. What if it's an animal who does, are you like, do you have a principled stance against people euthanizing their pets? No. If they're suffering, if they want to minimize- I mean, if your animalism, if your animal companion is in pain, I don't have- We've euthanized our cat, my cats. I had two cats that, one of them had lymphoma and the other one had renal failure. And we chose to ease their suffering. A chicken wheelchair. Yeah, I'm trying to figure out how you are subjectively discerning which animal is suffering in which case scenario. You seem to just kind of be like deciding on your gut, your feelings, like that a chicken in a wheelchair is okay, but a cat dying is not. Like I'm having trouble here. You can tell when an animal feels joy, when they feel fear, when they're anxious, if they're hungry. You know, these are basic behaviors that are very familiar. But your worldview is through a human, not through a chicken. So you're assuming that this chicken through its worldview wants to live in a wheelchair and peck at things. Like, isn't that kind of an assumption? I mean, if she- I mean, you're not chickens, right? I mean, how do you guys know the life worldview of a chicken and what a chicken would even want? Well, we're also not you. We don't know how you experience it. Well, yeah, but I can communicate. They can't. How do you guys know what they want? They can communicate. They communicate all the time. They communicate. I mean, if they're ill, they can- They tell you that if they want to die, if they want to die, that's interesting. No, I don't think any animal wants to die. I mean, it's, again, it goes against the basic principles of survival and evolution. I don't think any animal wants to die. But you are calling for the wiping out of whole sectors of farm animals. You do know that, right? Well, it's a thing we're not. This is, that's another thing that you said in your intro that I wanted to touch on. Sure, please. We're not calling for the genocide of millions of sentient beings. What we're hoping is that we can, and we don't want to make it illegal either to consume animal flesh. We hope that people can change their minds and hearts and gradually decrease the demand to the point of where we're not breeding them anymore. Because the only reason they exist is because we continue to breed them and continue to demand their flesh. The vegan message is not to cull all factory-farmed animals. Well, some of them. We've saved nine factory-farmed animals. Okay, well, on that note then, what do we do with all the animals? Because certainly, you know, I mean, we can't just bring them into people's houses, can we? I mean... They're not gonna go, we're not gonna eliminate them overnight. No, I know, what do we do with them? I mean, what do we do? We have all the, okay, you guys get your way. We get rid of factory farms. Factory farms are outlawed. New policy in place. What do we do with all the animals? Well, unfortunately, the world will not go vegan overnight, unfortunately. And so what will happen just like with every other outdated industry when a new technology comes along and replaces it, it's a slow progress. And slowly as people reduce their demand for animal products, the animal product producers will slowly stop breeding the animals. So do you guys have an ethical issue if someone did exactly like you did? Kept chickens, kept pigs, kept whatever, but they ate their products. Would you have an issue with that? Like if they ate their eggs, instead of giving it back to their chickens, would you guys have an ethical issue with that? If they rescued farmed chickens and ate the eggs, is that a problem? Well, if it's an egg laying chicken, then she is releasing a ton of nutrients, minerals, vitamins in the egg laying process. So if you don't let her eat her eggs, it's really hard for her to recoup that calcium and iron that she lost. She can develop osteoporosis and... What is osteoporosis matter? They're sitting in a fucking wheelchair. Hold on, let's let them finish. Well, I mean, osteoporosis is actually very common in egg laying hands in the industry and as our other illnesses, I mean, there are so many. Self-engitis is another one. And that's another one. Do you guys know why? Hold on, Smokey. Sorry. I'm just wondering, because they're going on on the whole thing of all the problems they have. I'm aware of all the problems they have, but do you know why they have all those problems? You do know why, of course, because they've been selectively bred to lay more eggs than their bodies can handle. Beautiful, we agree. Okay, we agree. And I guess that's maybe part of my struggle, guys, is I'm trying to rationalize understanding how we don't kind of wipe out species here or integrate species into society, which, by the way, is kind of what I argued. Like, I mean, I don't actually have an issue with pushing back towards the resurgence of family farms. I mean, do you guys see an ethical issue with that? Well, realistically speaking, remember how you said, essentially, factory farms were the solution to feeding eight billion people who want meat? I don't think that that would even happen unless the demand drastically dropped. Okay, well, is it at least reasonable, maybe to say, at least maybe to the non-vegan community? Hey, guys, why don't you at least push towards getting your meat from non-commercial suppliers if you can? Like, why not kind of make it more of like an ethical drive to really just even push more people to do what you guys already do? But to maybe create a cultivated environment where you actually have an appreciation for the product instead of just going to the supermarket, picking it up, and you have no connection, no association, no value to the process of which the meat came to your plate? Do you see what I'm coming from? Frankly, most people wouldn't be interested. I think that's why we have different, that's why we have farmers and teachers and doctors, like not everybody wants to raise animals. It's so hard. Well, I'm not talking about everyone, but we do have a lot of people that wish they could raise animals, but like, for instance, you guys, if I'm not mistaken in LA, unless you guys have a variance, I'm not sure you're allowed to keep backyard foul. No, in certain parts of the city you are. Yeah, not allowed to have is more than one rooster, for example, in certain parts of the city. So you guys are within code variance for your city. Okay, and you don't have any issue with someone maybe did exactly that you did, but ate the eggs instead, or you're saying nope, the chicken needs it, there's vitamins there, they're not allowed to eat it. Like, is that really where you're at on that? Yes, that and the objectification of a living sentient being. Well, that's not objectifying because they're just doing what you guys did. And it also opens, you know, when you present a window, people tend to make a door. And most people are not going to be raising backyard hens or going to want to buy their eggs. So by making it okay to eat eggs, period, you know, and that's also assuming that those people aren't also going out to eat and not eating eggs elsewhere, you know, or products that contain eggs. What you're describing is animal welfareism and that's not consistent with the vegan message. Like, vegans don't want animals to be like humanely killed. We don't want them to be killed because it's wrong. So in the same way that you wouldn't advocate for like better conditions for child laborers, you don't advocate for like better conditions for farmed animals. It's, if it's morally wrong, the advocate is saying we should stop doing this. Well, that kind of takes me into my whole issue of the economic vacuum. How do you guys satiate that issue, which is a natural component of human society? What are you going to do when people are hiding the animals they're raising and because they have to hide them, treat them just monstrously, even worse than what they are today? Well, I mean, what that? You're not going to, I mean, just so you understand, I don't think there's any policy you guys could ever create or pass or enforce that would actually eliminate animal suffering. We can't force people by law to do something moral. Like there's, yeah, there's underground dog fighting. There's underground cock fighting. There's all sorts of underground black market wrong things that people do all the time. And we could legislate it all we want. It's more about talking to people and getting them to understand where their food comes from, where their leather jacket came from, where their down jacket came from, getting them to connect to the living sentient being that was on the other end of that product. Well, I guess I'm just trying to legislate it. Right, no, I see, but ultimately it would come to legislation, would it not? I mean, you guys are kind of taking a soft stance to it. And I understand you're saying, well, we just want to convince the culture to change. But yeah, like we just... Well, like the Furban, I don't know if you're familiar with it, but we did pass a law in Los Angeles. Well, now it's California, all of California. That's statewide. Any new manufacturer or sale of animal fur is prohibited. And we went to City Hall and attended the hearings and something our commissioner said, sorry, council member said that was very impactful, was that sometimes, sometimes we have to make laws because people won't change their behavior, which the thing is with fur, I think it was easier for people to understand that fur is unnecessary. It's a fashion statement. Why do you need fur in California? We're in a desert, you know, things like that. So it was easier for people to grasp that and also fur is a dying industry. There were maybe like 40 furriers in all of Los Angeles. So we progressed to that point, but I don't know, 50 years ago, everyone was wearing fur in Hollywood. No one would have heard of it. And a whole bunch of non-vegans had to vote on that for it to pass. So we had to change people's perception, change their hearts and minds, and then eventually it did become a law. But there's a law against murder. There's a law against rape. People still murder and rape. You can't ledges immorality out of people. Yeah, that's fair. At least you're being realistic about that. I have actually been talking for a while. I probably should hand it off to Godless if she has a question. I just wanna, well, I have an absurd, moving away from debate, but there is an observation I wanna touch on, but before that, are you guys Christians? We both grew up Christian, you know. I was raised Catholic, but I am not, not. So you think Jesus was immoral for eating fish then, right? That's assuming that he actually ate fish. I mean, it's hard to prove. Yeah. I'm talking about the Jesus in the Bible, that one. The Jesus in the Bible. Well, yeah, I mean, eating fish when you don't have to eat fish is an immoral behavior, yes. But I mean, there's a whole other side conversation about how that text was translated that we could get into it. That's interesting. You say don't have to. That's a very, very broad, subjective discerner. So I mean, what is kind of your defining boundary of have to, like in terms of animal products? When you have other animals, not products, but when you have other choices, you know, like we can't- Especially abundant choices. Abundant choices. You get, you know, a lot of, not everybody, but a lot of people have the option of going to the store and choosing, you know, what they want to buy versus say someone who lives, because we've been asked before, like, what about the people who live in the Antarctic and they can't grow vegetables or their vegetables and fruit are not readily available to them? Well, we don't, we are not talking about them. We're talking about the people who have the choice. Okay. Well, how do we, see, I'm struggling with this. You're saying, I mean, we do have the choice and we do, most of us do. And I think if we happen to live in a dense urbanized center with lots of options, you're right. But that's not most of America. I mean, you know, most of America is rural. You know, these people live off the land. Like, and I know this is, this is what worries me is that when you guys have spent most of, if not all your lives in a very closed bubble of urban lifestyle is you maybe lose connection with the way that other people live in their culture. I mean, did you guys live on a farm? Did you grow up on a farm? Have you been around animals? I mean, give me some story here. I grew up in Costa Rica. I'm from West Virginia. So we're not city folk. We are familiar with rural farm life. Well, but have you been on a farm? Have you lived on a farm? Have you worked on a farm? Yeah, I've been to, I guess, to all those things. I've never worked on a farm. I have been to it. Yes, not worked on a farm. Okay. And you do understand you want to tell them these people that have had it bred in their culture for probably a couple hundred years to stop doing this. You know, get rid of all your, what do they do with it? What do you tell them to do with their cattle, by the way? But like, let's say a rancher came to you and said, oh, these annoying vegans, they're not annoying. They're awesome. What do I do with my cows? What's the answer? We don't want to tell them to stop. We're not, the thing is it's not going to stop the source of the production of meat. Well, they can't afford to continue to feed the cattle. They can't afford to feed the cattle if they're... Let's hear the rest of what Anna was saying. And then, although this is, once we hear a response from Anna, in order to continue on this, we'd have to know exactly how it ties with like the, whether or not it's morally wrong to be vegan per se. Well, I don't want to bring up something that's like... Well, I do want to let Anna finish the whole thing. I was just saying that we're not gonna tell farmers to stop. I mean, that's the source of the issue is the consumer. When the consumer decides to transition their taste, which has happened many times. I mean, that's why rotary phones went out of business. Like these things happen, that they're part of the progressive society. So when that starts to happen, farmers might choose to transition to other mediums. I mean, we have Elmhurst dairy, used to be Elmhurst dairy, is now producing plant-based milks because they picked up on where the trend was. And it was not gonna be, it's not gonna be dairy. Do you guys realistically appreciate that a farmer wouldn't be able to continue to feed his cows if he wasn't able to make money off the meat? Do you... So you are telling him to stop, you're just doing it indirectly. Yes, but I mean, but you're exploiting a victim. So it doesn't matter that by exploiting the victim, you're able to feed the victim. Like that doesn't matter to the victim. The victim is still being exploited and eventually will be murdered needlessly just because someone wants to eat them. So it should be allowed to just live until it drops dead and that's the ethical decision. And it's... Ideally, I think everyone should be allowed to live freely as they choose. And then they drop dead and the meat isn't used and meat's not allowed to be used after they drop dead. Well, we already talked about the roadkill. Like if you wanna eat a corpse, it's just out in the woods. I mean, that's... Well, we're talking about the farm and the ethical requirement of the farmer who says, I agree now with the ethics of those annoying vegans and now I need to cultivate my lifestyle to match what they want. So if they're coming to you, I'm having a hard time understanding how they're gonna reconcile their lifestyle and culture to meet what you guys want. If they wanted to transition, that actually does exist and that does happen and there are many organizations who help farmers transition. They will either donate... We try to place the animals. Place the animals in a sanctuary and I don't know, start veganic farming. Okay, so just that's the answer is sanctuaries everywhere, I guess. Big farm zoos. Well, we tried it. They are very therapeutic. You think zoos are ethical? No. Then why would you want a bunch of animals to be kept in zoos, basically? Because, let's face it, chickens, chickens, goats, pigs, not gonna survive in the wild. They don't have any defense mechanisms that's been bred out of them. And neither would a chihuahua. Well, we don't needlessly breed and murder chihuahuas by the billions. Well, we also don't... We don't breed billions of chihuahuas. I mean, I don't know. I mean, that's not part of our food system. Maybe we shouldn't breed billions of chickens, pigs, and cows. Well, that's fine if you wanna say that, but that ship has sailed. And so now if you wanna make an argument to the contrary, you're gonna have to answer the existential question of the dilemmas you're gonna create from your policies. I'm sorry, but you guys don't get to say, well, it's 1950 again, let's do it different. But we have all this stuff today. What we already said was that, unfortunately, the world will not go vegan overnight. And so slowly fewer animals will be bred into existence until there aren't billions of chickens, cows, and pigs. Okay, so this is just basically just a slow push by you guys. Well, not us, but hopefully the world. It will have to be. The thing is, like, we weren't vegan. We were, we've been vegan now five years. We, the thing is we're not, you cannot force veganism on people. It's something that happens, it's a realization. It's a choice that people make when they learn information that they're no longer comfortable with. You know, it's not something that, it's not like vegans are overtaking the world. It's people, non-vegans are changing their hearts and minds gradually, little by little. And it's largely non-vegans creating that change because vegans are such a small percentage of the population, like beyond meat wouldn't exist if only vegans bought beyond meat. Like there's a ton of non-vegans buying these vegan products and switching over. And you guys are certain that based upon economic impact that we would have no issue growing enough food for everyone. Oh, we already grow enough food to feed 70 billion land animals. I don't know why we couldn't feed them. Yeah, but that's what I'm saying. Like people, you want to basically take that away that we're giving to the animals, but you're not really taking it away. You're saying, you're saying, well, we already give it to the animals. Yeah, we're going to have to keep giving it to the animals because we want the animals to keep living, right? So we have to keep feeding the animals, but we're not allowed to slaughter the animals and use their meat. How are you not calling for a shortage or a famine? Because we will stop breed, like animals are bred into existence every single hour of every single day. It's happening all the time. We slaughter trillions of animals every day. Yeah, and we eat them. We don't keep feeding them. Correct. So we could stop breeding them and that would stop their growth. And there would be less animals to feed, but we're routinely breeding them. And so we're having to, a farmer has to always feed cows for his entire career because he's always breeding new cows to be murdered at the age of like 18 months. That's anyone that keeps animals of any kind. I mean, you're kind of saying, well, like, great. You know, it's solved once we get the number down. I'm asking you guys what we're supposed to do to get the number down. And like, you know, if you either have an implemented policy or you have a cultural shift, you need to kind of like, at least tell me what you're really pushing for because I'm confused. Well, we're already getting the number down. Like dairy sales are down, meat sales are down, plant-based products sales are up. It's already happening. But factory farms have not gone away. And certainly I think if you guys thought that this was enough, you would stop. If you thought it's already been enough and that this is just on its way down. Well, I mean, what's the point in kind of really continuing with this? Just continue to push the way you're pushing that there's more animal products as opposed to drawing some sort of ethical line that using animals is wrong. Smokey, I do need you to tie together the strings here for some of the audience are asking like, how does this have to do with whether our veganism per se is wrong? What ends up happening is you compromise the livelihoods of people by demanding that they accept a standard that you have arbitrarily judged as ethical. Now, you're requiring that ethical standard on them. And what ends up happening is you not only are going to cause suffering to the animals, but also to the people that care for the animals. Like, and this is what I'm having a hard time. Well, I can try to- Not from you, Godless girl. No offense, Godless girl, but just to hear from Anna and Brian. All we have to do in most every scenario that is brought up against veganism is replace the victim. So if what you're saying is if someone had a warehouse full of child slaves and you were saying if you outlaw child slavery, you're going to decrease the wellbeing of the owner of this child slave warehouse. Okay, it's an immoral action. There are victims involved. There is pain and suffering being caused needlessly. So it will be a transition. I don't see animals and humans as equals. And I haven't heard an argument for that. We're both sentient living beings. Well, they're experienced. But they don't have the capacity for complex emotions like we do or cognitive thought or abstracts or some realization. The very basic emotions of joy, pain, fear, those emotions are experienced by animals. And yeah, you would agree because they're biologically like, they're an evolutionary trait that animals need in order. So to you guys, the mistreatment of an animal and a human is equal. Which animal and which human? I mean, I don't think a little shrimp feels fear and joy. Well, we don't know that. I don't know. But do why, you know, I would rather err on the side of, you know, why would I cause the shrimp, you know, any pain or any potential pain when I don't have to, you know? Can I change the subject? Go ahead, I yield. I yield. We'll humor you. We have a time for maybe one quick last subject before we go to the human. Oh, so this is a good thing to actually wrap it up with. It's moving away from debate too. It's just, I think you guys are nice and well-intentioned. You know, I think that lots of times, I haven't watched your content, but that's something vegans are actually counterproductive. Vegans on the internet are actually counterproductive. They like turn people off of it because they're so in your face. I'm not saying you guys aren't anything, but this is just an observation. I think that almost half your battle would be won. And I think people would be more receptive to it. If instead of trying to get people to eat vegan, you just made them feel guilty about all the waste because like around dairy products, it's like in the United States, it's like around 50% get thrown away. And I know personally, that's the only time I really feel guilty about my buying animal products is when it gets thrown away in a garbage rather than me consuming it. We listen to this here from Brian and then we'll go to Q&A. Thanks for your patience. Different vegan activists have different approaches that they take and- Much like with any other- Much like with any other- A lot of special justice movement. Yeah, so not everyone is going to like every vegan, just like not everyone is going to like every meteor. But the message of veganism, the idea of veganism is minimizing pain and suffering, maximizing well-being for all sentient beings because discriminating based on species is like we said in our opening, it's arbitrary. It's no different than discriminating based on race. And so especially if we don't have to cause needless suffering, yes, there's waste in the dairy industry, for example. Yes, there's environmental factors to consider. Yes, there's health arguments that can be made. But at its core, veganism is the belief that non-human animals are sentient. They experience pain and love and joy. And at least deserve equal consideration. Gotcha. Thank you very much. Anna, Brian, Smoky and Godless girl. We really appreciate you guys being here. And so with that, we will go into the Q&A. Folks, as you've been listening, wanna let you know, I put all of the guest links in the description. So if you're waiting, if you're listening and you're like, oh, I wish I could hear more, the debate's gonna end soon. You can hear plenty more by going to their links. And so with that, first, thanks for your super chat from nasty guy, Steven Steen says, veganism is the gateway drug to MAGA. He's just one of our trolls, don't worry. MAGA is in the- The America Grip. Yeah, don't worry about him. You could be a Republican and be vegan, by the way. It exists. That's true. I have to remind everybody, nobody knows this. Wotan is actually a vegan. He's one of our regulars here. So RavenZero, thanks for your question, said, let's see. Let's see. RavenZero says they're taking the side of, Godless girl, forgive me for this, but I have to read it as it says. Take the side of crazy girl, Godless girl on this one. Well, you kind of have a fan in a way. Thanks for your question. They said, in summertime, this is really fitting. If I remember right, Anna and Brian, I think I remember you guys, do you remember you have recipes on your channel? Is that yours? Yeah, you're still there. That's right. And so Dave Gar said, it's summertime in Texas and I love to grill. James, please ask the interlocutors for their best grill recipes. And so I suppose they didn't specify interlocutors, but I know a lot of people maybe don't know. There are vegan grilling alternatives or ideas, right? So I'm happy to hear from all four interlocutors. I don't grill myself. I wouldn't trust me grilling, but we'll go ahead, if we wanna hear first, we can go from right to left this time. So starting with Godless girl, do you grill? No, I don't. I haven't in a very long time. And Smokey, any recipes off the top of your head? I'm an amazing cook and I love to use a smoker. Imagine that. Yeah, no, I love to do ribs. That's actually one of my favorite things to grill. Gotcha. And then Anna and Brian. I think you should mention that. You guys, one of our most popular recipes on our channel, one of our most watched videos are our vegan ribs recipe. Actually a Fourth of July recipe. Fourth of July recipe. Well, you know what? Then I'm gonna have to go check it out and maybe I'll have to try it. Really? We're wearing American flag shirts in the thumbnail. I'll be maybe saving a pig that day and I'll do it just for you guys. Well, thank you. Excellent. And thanks for your question from logical plausible probable. John Maddox says Smokey Saint is having an after show. Don't miss it. Gotcha. Let's see. Thank you, Maddox. Next, stupid whore energy. One of our regulars says, for the vegan side, do you think that a tax on meat consumption would be effective? Yeah. Yeah. I think just like with anything else. Just carbon tax. Yeah. I mean, it's, you know, I know Smokey touched on environmental impact. Meat production is very intensive on the environment and it causes ocean dead zones, water pollution in lower socioeconomic communities. It, there's, I mean, a lot of illness associated with say the pig hog farms, say in North Carolina, people have been diagnosed with lung cancer and other ailments just because of the manure that is sprayed into the air and these people have no political clout. So it's causing so, it's like trickling into so many different aspects of health and environment that yeah, sure, I think it would benefit from tax. Gotcha. Thank you very much. And genius tracks. Thanks for your statement. Said this super chat is just an appreciation for you, James. You work hard and you're a great example for people. Cheers, buddy. Thank you so much. That must feel good to have what you have a super chat to you. That's sweet. It means I do appreciate that genius tracks that really does encourage me. And Decepticons forever, thanks for your, let's see. I've got to read it. Godless girl, they said, Godless girl scares me. Okay, well, I mean, it could be in that in a good way. Next up, thanks for your super chat. By the way, James, if there's anything super brutal towards me, just read it as is, please. You got it. I promise I will. And Peter. We take a lot of... We've received plenty of comments that are not kind. We're used to it. So read them out. That's true. Everybody here probably gets some heat. I'm sure that's so true. Everything under the sun. Yeah. Just start a vegan YouTube channel and see what kind of comments you start getting. Oh man. Well, Decepticons forever, we do have some positive ones for you coming up. So Decepticons forever, thanks for your... Or we get that one. Peter Refscard, thanks for your question said, Godless girl, do you have... Let's see. I'm so sorry. Is this... Do you have a resting B-E-T-C-H? They spelled it differently for you. I don't know if I understand a resting bitch face. Yes, that's it. Yes. I'm just using my normal face. I don't know what the... I guess I don't have a question. They... I thought I was abnormally pleasant tonight. Yes, you were actually really congenial tonight. We really appreciate that. And so yes, this is a... She's got a tremendous face, very pleasant. And logical, plausible, probable, who also has a pleasant face. John, good to see you again, says, for vegans, are they pro-life or pro-choice? If pro-choice, how do they defend killing humans while pushing to not kill other quote unquote animals? That's a common misconception is that vegans need be one or the other, but us personally, we lean more towards the pro-life stance with, you know, of course, some of the logical exceptions. Like, you know, if the mother's life is in danger, the baby's life is in danger, there's complications and things like that. As a form of birth control, it's obviously... Like, needless killing is needless killing if it's a human being, if it's an animal. I commend you guys for your consistency. That's very nice. Thank you. Gotcha. And that reminds me. I've been looking so hard on Twitter, K-Fellows, if everybody remembers her, Libertarian. She is a pro-life Libertarian. She's kind of like, she's assertive. We like her. She's looking for a person to debate who is pro-choice. So I've been asking so many people on Twitter, everybody's turning me down. So if there's somebody out there, she asked if it could be another female debater. So let me know if you have interest in that. And Brandon Ardeline, thanks for your question, said, vegan arguments always boil down to factory farming. Too bad you can oppose suffering and still be an omnivore. Factory farming needs reform. Well, no, as we said, the factory farming is not crucial to the vegan argument. The vegan argument is that needless suffering, torture, death, abuse. And whatever form is wrong and we should stop doing it. Here's the thing, one of the things I wanted to touch on regarding that is most people, you would argue, would even Smokey St. mentioned that he's, in a way, correct me if I'm wrong, you value animal welfare. Most people value animal welfare. But my question is why do we draw the line at killing the animal? It's almost like where our convenience begins is where we draw the line at animal welfare. The cow slaughterhouse where we used to go and hold vigil, they have a huge sign on the gate and it says animal abuse will not be tolerated. And I'm like, wait, hold on, you slaughter cows here. How is that all of a sudden not animal abuse? Isn't killing someone at 18 months old abusive? Yeah, so whether at a factory farm or at a small scale farm, the animal doesn't care. Of course, the animal would prefer to live a happy, healthy, full life. But when it comes to their killing day, it doesn't matter where they're from. Gotcha. And thanks so much for your question from capitalism with a K says, let's see. Hi, capitalism. They say, go, Godless girl. Godless girl, you got a fan out there. Oh, that's actually my friend from Discord. Well, there you go. Still counts, okay. So stupid horror energy strikes again. And she says mass production of meat from livestock is one cause of climate change with estimates of greenhouse emissions up to 51%. Smokey and Godless girl, what do you have to say for yourselves? That's gonna take it into a whole climate debate and whether or not it's man-made introduced. So if stupid horror wants to debate that or talk about it, she can come to my channel. I don't know anything about those empirical issues. Can I ask a question, James? Yeah. Just cause like, I love the channel and it's really, thank you so much for having us on, but stupid horror energy is always in the Q and A's. I'm just wondering, is she vegan? If she could message back. I'm wondering myself. Let us know in the chat, SWE, and I'm curious myself cause she does have at least sympathy at least. And so we'll see what she says and Tioga, buddy of stupid horror energy says, carry on is vegan, don't at me. And she's spelling it carry on C-A-R-R-I-O-N. I'm not sure what that means. Carry on. Oh, carry on is like road kill. Road kill or like, no, is it like guts that they yank out of the animal or something? I'm not familiar with my terminology either. I'm not sure what that is. It's like what cultures eat. Oh. Gotcha. And PS, by the way, logical plausible probable is hosting Godless Engineer and Praise on whether or not Jesus actually existed. That's going to be, that's a, I pinned it in the live chat. We will always let you know about debates on other channels, no matter it be Christian, Atheist channel, who you name it. We're happy to let you know folks. And stupid, let's see, you've got that one. Flat Earth News, thanks for your kind words. Good to see, says good to see James doing a better job of moderating. Thank you. I appreciate that. Let's see Rodney Fahlberg, thanks for your questions. Said Godless girl, stop with all caps with the hypotheticals. They are not facts. Hypotheticals are smoke screens meant to distract from the argument. Also, Gigi and Smokey, difference in testing humans versus testing animals is consent. Okay. Somebody who says you can't argue with hypotheticals is just revealing their ignorance of fucking philosophy. And you're just pushing off the byproducts of what is tested from the animal to the human. And you still need to make an argument as to why that's more ethical. Next, Tioga, thanks for your question statement. Said the non-vegans would kill animals but are being judgy about, they said the non-vegans would kill animals but are being judgy toward the vegans about killing animals. Go figure. Wait, what? That was an internal critique that Smokey St. was doing. Yeah, it was internal presuppositional worldview critique. That person's confused. Next, logical plausible probable. Thank you for your correction. The debate between Godless engineer and praise is going to be on Standing for Truth channel, not John. Sorry about that. And let's see, we've got Rodney's question. Thanks for that. Rodney asked another one, said, note to self, don't get injured around Godless girl. She might, she might. Next, stupid whore energy, thanks for your- I might euthanize you, that's what he means. Next up, said a stupid whore energy. He said, scientists have shown that animals feel pleasure as well as pain in many countries. Animal sentience has been included in many codes and laws. For example, in the EU as of 1997. Well, we also have laws here that protect certain species. It's just an arbitrary line. Like cats and dogs, like if you abuse a dog, that's a problem in this society, but if you abuse a pig, it's fine. Is that one of the crippled chickens? This is an objection toward you Smokey and Godless girl. I hadn't even seen, what is it? Does it have a name? She's Kate. She's Kate. Very cute. She's got little chicken, very little chicken. And the objection Smokey and Godless girl was for you. This is stupid whore energy saying, hey, in many countries animal sentience has been included in many codes and laws. And scientists have shown that animals feel pleasure as well as pain. Some cultures have cannibalism and rape as a norm. What type of argument is that? Next, Ryan Gordon, thanks for your question said, without harvesting animals, you have overpopulation which causes wrecks, diseases, and death. Eating them, I think they mean, for example, like deer is the only humane way of harvesting them. I think this is kind of touched on in the debate. Definitely the word harvest. Yeah, I know. Harvest seems to be a problem. They use the word harvest and kill, it's strange. It's like such a weird euphemism. Well, but the majority of people don't eat deer and moose and wild caught game. The majority of people eat animals that are specifically bred into existence to be killed as babies. Like chickens are killed at six weeks old. Pigs are killed at six months old. Cows are killed at two to five years old. So it's, again, it's not really a practical argument or solution. Gotcha. And super interesting that harvest is a euphemism. I never even realized that, that it has to be, it has to be bigger. It's for when people feel uncomfortable talking about what they're actually doing, which is killing an animal against their will needlessly. Next, thanks for your question, a statement from Happy Dude says, Godless girl's egg argument applies to consuming, not killing. I think that they are referring to, so I think that this is one that I thought myself. I was like, I let it. I'm sorry, I think you're the first half. Can you repeat it? I apologize. They said, Godless girl's egg argument or thought pump, you might say, like intuition pump is, it applies to consuming animals, but not killing. I think what they're saying is that. Yeah, that was my point. I think though that there. Because veganism was defined as consuming, not killing. So that was my point. Well, exploiting, to be fair. If you can consume without exploiting, then they wouldn't have a problem with that under their definition of veganism. That was my point. Yeah, just like a baby can drink his mother's breast milk and it's fine, even though it's an animal product. Gotcha. And thank you very much, Ryan Gordon for your statement said, let's see, no offense, but not convinced. Let's see, toward our vegan guests. We love you guys. But you got to, Ryan's a skeptic still. Sister Fredo Sarabia, thanks for your question said, Godless girl, I liked you yesterday, but evolution hates you if you don't have children as your duty to procreate according to evolution is going against your well-being and the well-being of your species. So are you below? I don't think that evolution has intentions. I don't know what the fuck that person is talking about. I love Godless. You must. You must. Oh yeah, evolution to me. I tried Sister Fredo at next stop. Connor D says, paying someone to do human testing isn't consent in the same way, paying a homeless person to sleep with you for money is. Starve or bang, not consent. When did that come up? Okay. Oh, I think they're talking about how they said they could use humans as test subjects instead of animals. I see. Did you guys talk about prostituting homeless people? No, we were talking about how people would, will submit themselves to testing for money. Okay, gotcha. Like, like consent could be leveraged was kind of the point. I see what you're saying. And Sister Fredo, let's see. I still don't get it. Next is Sister Fredo Sarabia. People in the comments are dumb. Says, Sister Fredo says, any issues with vegetarians or can it be a given if majority of them don't want to eat meat? Then milking can't be less cruel or no milk. Well, I'm not sure the way the questions formulate is a little tricky or unclear, but are they asking if we have an issue with vegetarians? We can tell you why there is cruel. They said, any, I'm figuring out myself, they said any issues with vegetarians, I think they're saying like, do you guys have any issues with vegetarians or can it be a given if majority don't want to eat meat? I think they're saying like, if the majority of vegetarians don't want to eat meat then milking can't be less cruel or no milk. Come on, Sister Fredo, come on. Well, the thing with the dairy, other than the fact that it, well, we can go into it, but in a nutshell. In a nutshell, why dairy is immoral? In a nutshell, the dairy cows aren't enslaved their entire lives. Well, not their entire lives. Cows can live up to be 18 years old, but they are usually killed at four when their bodies are unable to continue producing milk because they are kept perpetually pregnant in order to keep producing milk. They suffer the emotional trauma of having their newborn, their newborn calves taken from them so that people can get the milk. And once they're unable to produce more milk, they're not no longer profitable to the farmer. So they are sent to slaughter. So they are part of the meat industry as well. And also male dairy calves exist. And unfortunately, they don't make milk. So most male dairy calves are shot in the first few days that they're alive. They're killed as babies. And some people have coined a term for that called veal. So if you eat veal, that's code for dead baby cow. Gotcha. And Steven Steen, thanks for your question statement said, we should end all the carnivores for being immoral. Oh gosh, well, okay, Steven. That's super moral. Beautiful, bro. Nice, nice show. Next up, I'm just the messenger. He's a troll. He's saying we should end all carnivores for being immoral. Like non-human carnivores. Is that what he's talking about? I think he means humans. Well, I'm a carnivore diet. Oh, maybe. Okay, was he, I just, okay, I guess like. See, I read genocide out of that. I don't know, maybe, yeah, I'll be too. Of course, like, we're not lions. Humans aren't lions. Gotcha, fair enough. Immoliency. And Tiffany Bear, thanks for your question said, for the vegans, my health suffered for years on a vegan diet. If I'm just another animal, what about my suffering? I'm much better off on a meat-heavy diet. Well, the Academy of Nutrition and Dietetics, which is the largest group of nutrition professionals in the world, they are not a vegan organization. And they released a peer-reviewed statement in 2016 saying that vegan diets can be nutritionally adequate for all stages of- Plant-based, now you're making the same mistake. Plant-based diets, 100% plant-based diets, can be nutritionally adequate if they are well-planned. So she says- Any other diet needs to be well-planned. Of course, so she says vegan diet, I don't know what that means. We don't know what she was eating. All we know is what she was not eating. So that's why the word vegan diet is- Doesn't mean anything. Doesn't make sense. Gotcha. So you could eat soda and cringles and that can be vegan, you know? Gotcha, thank you very much. And so I'm trying to figure out Cigafrito has another. This one for Smokey. They said, Smokey in Genesis God says, quote, the plants are there for food. Did the Christian God ever tell us to eat plants? And Jesus ate fish or lamb? What to do morally? It's not an issue morally. We were called to bring all of creation under our subjugation and where our bodies have been cultivated to be able to process meat. In fact, it's actually built into our physiology. So I'm not sure what the issue would actually be. We're not certainly doing anything unethical or immoral in a biblical standard, in my opinion. I think what they're asking about like is maybe he's asking about it at the first part. He's trying to understand the Christian theology like in its start would start where before the flood people were told to just eat plants. Oh, we talked about like before the fall. That's a huge unpack, James. I'm sorry. That's not something I can do in even 30 seconds. No problem. Tiffany, we got hers. Raven Zero, thanks for your statement. Said, I, let's see. Said, okay, they said they're a fan of smoky and godless girl. You've got a fan out there, guys. Thank you. You've been like, it's like. Come on on our after show. It's making up for all the hate comments. Come on over and say hi. Next up, Kaddishito, thanks for your question. Sad, they responded, let's see. They are in agreement. They are your fans. You've got godless girl that you're, you're winning the crowd over apparently. Okay, next up, Tiffany Bear, thanks for your super chat. Said, shout out to smoky and Gigi for a job well done. Wow, godless girl. It's like you're honestly, you're becoming YouTube's favorite daughter. You're replacing Erica, gut sick Gibbon. You're, we, I love Erica. She's terrific. By the way. Half of my viewers are haters. Well, yeah. Not today. Thanks for your super chat from Sidgerado said, godless girl, if I said one, it's immoral to kill animals unnecessarily. Two, consuming animals in the US is unnecessary. Three, it's immoral to kill animals unnecessarily in the US or infringe on their free will. What's your issue with that argument? It says, what's the conclusion? I think that the three is supposed to be their conclusion. They're saying, you know, premise one, it's immoral to kill animals unnecessarily, premise two, it's not necessary. Well, yeah, I even accept the first premise because moral saving is what you ought to do, right? So that's just gonna, and I'm a moral non-cognitivist. So if they wanna come on smoky streams, smoky saying stream and debate me, I'll humiliate them afterwards. What a moral fucking ought is. Next up, Red Rider 197. Thanks for your question, said if ask yourself is available, would smoky be willing to debate him on veganism? One more time, sorry. Oh, smoky, no, no, you don't. Who is it? He is one of the most formidable debaters I have ever met. He would write name the trait argument on you and destroy you. I wouldn't even debate him on it. Who is it? You ask yourself. Ask yourself. No, yeah, I'm not super familiar with them. I'll consider it. Vegan philosopher. Wait, hold on one sec. Steve McCrae's manager is in the chat again, says, I don't think it's really Steve McCrae's real manager, says, James, I have a lot of respect for you. Thank you for reading my super chat last night. You're welcome for reading your slanderous super chat last night. But next up, Steven, let's see. Thank you for your super sticker of a unicorn with a rainbow tail. Next, thank you for your, let's see. Next, thank you for your question from Little Miss Betty Page, aka Tan. Are you against feeding crickets to my tarantula or are crickets not sentient enough? You feed them mealworms? Yeah, I mean, well, the sentience of insects, I don't know if there's conclusive evidence on that, but if a tarantula is a carnivorous animal, then the species appropriate diet would be to eat crickets. I mean, we can't impose our human morality on non-human animals. We are moral agents. And so when we talk about veganism, we're not trying to turn lions or cats or sharks vegan, you know, we're talking about homo sapiens. You got it. Thank you. Some love. All right, next, thanks for your question from Earl of Sandwich says, we can choose to let things live. That's why vegan. Did anybody else get that? We can choose to let animals live so you should be vegan. That's what I would have guessed it meant. I'm confused. Yeah, I mean, you can choose not to steal from someone so you shouldn't do it. I mean, I don't know what, I don't know what the, are they making a moral statement? Yeah, I don't know. I baffled myself. We'll keep an eye. Oh wait, did we, hold on in the live chat. Did, I missed it. Did a stupid whore energy answer if she's a vegan? Did anybody, can anybody answer me that? I'll keep an eye on the live chat this time. I lost track of it last time. And thanks for your question for the knowing guy says, to the non-vegans, what would convince you to become a vegan? If they came up with some better taste in food. Well, if a lot of my economic and environmental issues could actually be handled with actual coherent policies being presented, I could be swayed. Gotcha. And Joshua and Tuss and Rage say, and logical plausible say, yes, she is a vegan. So apparently she did answer. And Mike Ortiz, thanks for your question said, what do the vegans feel about grown meat research? Yeah, lab-grown meats. I think that's good. Yeah, it's certainly a way more ethical way to get real animal flesh and not exploit an animal. Us personally, we wouldn't be interested in eating it, but it would be a better solution for people who want to eat real meat and for like domesticated carnivore animals. Gotcha, thank you. And let's see, stupid whore. Okay, this is the stupid whore energy says, yeah, I'm vegan. I once tried to start a vegan food truck in New York City. Really interesting. Logical plausible probable. Thanks for your question said that debate is on, okay, we'll get rid of that. The debate's on Standing for Truth's channel. Translator Carmenum said, sentience is a spectrum, killing a chicken is not equivalent to killing, for example, a dolphin. And if I had to kill a chicken to cure a painful dolphin disease, I'd do it in a heartbeat. Sticking with that first part, they I think they were saying sentience is a spectrum, killing a chicken is not equivalent to killing a dolphin. Sure, just like killing a person with cognitive disabilities, it would be probably a different experience for them than if you were to kill someone with higher cognitive abilities, but it doesn't mean we can just go willy-nilly, you know, killing people. I don't know what it's like to be a chicken. I don't know what it's like to be a dolphin. I'm sure they've both experienced pain in a way that evolution has given them the, like everyone experiences pain in the way that they're supposed to experience pain in order to survive. Gotcha. And next, thank you for your question from Lily RO, who says, are you trying to force people to be vegan or just trying to convince? Are you able to work with those who aren't vegan but want better living conditions for farm animals? I think that's maybe the biggest emphasis they're asking. You can't force veganism on anybody. I mean, this is not something that doesn't make sense. You know, people go vegan because they want to, because they've realized that they can no longer contribute to the suffering and exploitation of animals. And as far as the second part of the question. Yeah, no, I mean, again, they're advocating for animal welfare and we're advocating for animals to be treated with the same, basically the same respect and dignity that we treat cats and dogs and other animals that we don't breed into existence just to kill them. Gotcha. Anne, thanks for your question from Maynard Save, says, what are your thoughts on carnivorous plants? Oh, like Venus fly trunks? Yes, same as our thoughts on carnivorous animals. I mean, their morality is not our morality. If plants are even sentient, which according to our scientific knowledge, they're not. They might be intelligent, but I don't know about sentence. Thank you. And then logical plausible probable. Thanks for your statement. So don't forget Smoky's after show as well tonight. So I guess, are you Smoky, you had an after show at the same time as Standing for Truth's debate? Uh, I don't think so. I'm doing it right after this. You can have two tabs open, folks. Let me watch it. Earl of Sandwich, thanks for your question statement said, plants do not try to keep living when I come for them minus poison, et cetera. There is no will and a vegetable don't need to kill the plant any way to eat it. What? I don't know about a carrot. I think you kind of have to kill a carrot. The carrot doesn't run for its life. He's right. Plants are planted in place. They haven't evolved the ability to move. Gotcha. I don't know what the question is. It doesn't fall either. It's a statement. Earl of Sandwich, are you trolling us? Okay, Roy Lindsey, thanks for your question said, Godless looks like Sandra Bullock. This is not an insult. Wow, that's quite the compliment. Oh, Sandra Bullock looks pretty old. Oh, geez, man. A young Sandra Bullock. We're just patient and safe things. Maybe he didn't have enough characters, Godless. Google image the picture of her with no makeup on. She's a pretty lady. All right, Ryan Gordon. They're not like speed era Sandra Bullock, I think. Yeah, I always had the hots for Sandra Bullock. That's all gravy. Okay, that's gross. Okay, so Ryan Gordon, just kidding, Smoky. All right, Ryan Gordon, thanks for your super chat says, speak to a hunter if you want to understand the euphemism. I'm trying to understand. Oh, I think they maybe meant the euphemism of like harvesting animals. I don't know if that's what they did. Maybe the deers. Maybe it was bringing back to the deer situation. What was the eupha? Yeah, like euphemism. It was like if you didn't actually hunt deers, they would go extinct in a few generations. I thought he was talking about the euphemism of using the word harvest instead of kill. Oh, maybe. Oh, I'm sorry. Maybe I'm confused. Gotcha. And Captain Gingy, thanks for your super chat says, what if working people can't afford a vegan diet? Is that morally reprehensible? The economy kind of forces people into a certain diet. Well, first of all, let's re-clarify the meaning of the word vegan as it pertains to diet. There isn't such a thing as vegan diet just like you wouldn't say a feminist diet. You know what I mean? Veganism is different from plant-based, but a plant-based diet is one of the most affordable diets on the planet. I mean, most foods and vegetables, whole grains, they're pennies. I like the cheapest foods in the store, like rice, beans, oats, onions, legumes, lentils, carrots, greens, those are vegan too. We're not just talking about burgers. Anything processed, whether it's vegan or not vegan, will always be more expensive. Gotcha, thank you. And then only laughing because Godless Girl just staring into the camera. Love you, Godless Girl. All right, next up, Lily, was it? Lily, R.O., did we read this? Let's see. We didn't. Said, Gigi, thanks, Godless Girl, for not losing your poop tonight. I really liked your points. P.S. James is hot. Thank you so much. I always tell people, I think that's Earl the postman. He's like 65, he goes by Lily R.O., but I'll take what I can get. That says, PSS, VE DO YOU, but heads with those who aren't vegan but want better life for animals. I think they're saying something to the, do you know what they're saying? Say that one more time? Yeah, they said PSS, VE DO, so like VE the letter, DO YOU. Oh, I think they're saying vegans, DO YOU, like be yourselves, but heads with those who aren't vegan but want better life for animals. I think they're saying like, but I'm... You do you, but like people who want just better lives for animals be. I mean, again, replace the victim. Like if you're telling anyone fighting for justice for a victim, you know, you do you. You let everybody out, let me abuse my husband. You do, or what is it? The example. Like you commit domestic abuse if you want to. I'm not going to, but I'm not gonna force it on you. Like when there's a victim involved, it's not a personal choice. Like deciding what color shirt to wear, that's a personal choice. But just saying to someone like you do you, you could use that for any justice movement and most people would disagree with it in every context except for the animal context. Oh, it's inconsiderate. Appreciate it. And Bartos Diagos said vegans think too much with their feelings, but James, you're neat. I appreciate the compliment. However, I don't know if Anna and Brian would agree with you. So Anna and Brian, Bartos Diagos says vegans think too much with their feelings. Is this the case? What's wrong with feelings? I don't know why feelings are like so, you know. You could say, like you could say you anti-slavery supporters think too much with your feelings. Like why do you care? It's like, what's wrong with, we are human. We have feelings. It's part of our, the way we've, I mean, it's part of everything we do. Relationships and societies and so. You got it, thank you. And we got just a couple more questions and we're gonna try to close her down folks with the Q and A. We're gonna close the intake. Thank you for all of your questions. SPART 344, thanks for your patience. I almost missed this. They said, statement for Godless Girl. There's the entire Paralympics. Animal slash humans can live fulfilling lives without a limb or four. I just wouldn't euthanize an animal if it's like stuck sitting in the same spot all day. I think it's feeling stressed. Gotcha, SPART 344. Thanks for your other Patreon question This time for, say they had asked, is the eating of meat in and of itself immoral? Anna and Brian, let's see, is the eating of meat in and of itself? Oh, okay. This is kind of getting into that point. One of the other super chats was getting at it. I think they're leading down the rabbit hole of if I magically find a fresh corpse somewhere in the woods and eat it. I'm technically eating meat, but is it immoral? Yes, Kate would disagree. It's just not a very useful line of argumentation. They're saying like, could we come up with a hypothetical situation where the act of eating meat in and of itself causes no harm? Sure. You could come up with a very specific. A lab-grown meat. Yeah, lab-grown meat. You're eating real meat, no suffering. So I mean, it just doesn't really apply to the real world application of like how people eat. People go to McDonald's. I mean, that's the reality of the situation. They go to restaurants, they go to the grocery store. I see what you're saying. And Space Monkey, thanks for your question said, is it better for cows to have the chance to live but have a rough day at the slaughterhouse at the age of four or to never live at all? I think never live at all. Well, is that the choice that we're presented with? I mean... Yeah, it's either never exist or exist suffering at the slaughterhouse. Yeah, I mean, we could put a human into those same shoes. Would you rather... Yeah, I would think... I'm an anti-natalist. I think it would be better to never exist. I mean, if you don't exist, not exist and can't be bad for you, but suffering at the slaughterhouse is bad for you. You're an anti-natalist? We've never known this this whole time. A passionate anti-natalist. Why would you want to take a bunch of cells and turn it into a sentient being that suffers? Are you sick? Wow, you know, you and Tom Jump have more in common than you think. Oh, I would love to be on a team with Tom Jump. Well, you may do that. Max, thanks for your... We can do that in teams. Please do that. That would be something. Yeah, that would be like tomorrow's debate. You guys like temporarily set aside your differences to partner up for your common cause. Oh, I don't have any differences with him. We're both atheists too. I would debate to Christian, to Theist. Then I'm a Spider-Man teaming up to fight carnage, you know what I mean? So true. And next, Lily Arrow clarified her super chat. I think I accidentally butchered it. She said, so if there was an organized protest to get chickens out of cages, would you not try to help? Or would you instead say like, I'm not with those people. They don't go far enough. Yeah. Oh, yeah. So I mean, realistically, we're talking about incrementalism here. Like for example, the proposition too that was passed back in, I forget what year. I think it was spearheaded by Arnold Schwarzenegger that called for cage-free hens. Are we going to not vote on that ballot or are we gonna vote for cage-free? Of course we're gonna vote because we understand that nothing's gonna happen overnight and these are the steps that we need to take to get to that point. So in, if you're talking about, what's the other abolitionists? So at heart, we are abolitionists but in practice, we understand that we need to be incrementalists. Yeah. So same with like banning fur, like one could argue like, well unless fur is banned worldwide, we're not gonna vote on the California fur ban. I mean, that's illogical. If your goal is to help sentient beings not being murdered for their fur, that would be illogical stuff. Gotcha. And then this is the last, I think this is the last question that we had that came in. Oh, I did miss this one. So the knowing guy asked, smoky and godless girl, if lab-grown meat was made, would you stop eating animal meat? Probably. It would depend on how, if it tasted like meat and it was readily available. Yeah, I guess so. One of the biggest deterrents for me is also the, how like unavailable vegan food, the vegan options are restaurants and stuff because I eat out, most of my food, I eat out. That'll change over time. I mean, the demand is growing and the more people ask for it, the more options will be presented. Oh yeah, it already has. Like look at fast food now. Even McDonald's is gonna have vegan soon. Yeah, yeah. I probably could be suede, but much like GMOs are genetically modified. I'd probably be a little concerned with whatever process they're using to create this lab meat. And if there was any negative byproducts from consuming it, that's the only real objection I could probably think of off the top of my head. But you know why those impossible whoppers at Burger King taste so good is because they're soaked in real meat juice on the broiler. Oh yeah, I don't know about that. Yeah, I have no idea. Could be all of the herbs and spices that they've seasoned the patty with. Also known as vegan food, by the way, herbs and spices. Really interesting. And I wanna say thanks so much folks. It has been a true pleasure. I wanna remind you, I put the links of our guests in the description so you can hear plenty more of that came from tonight. And just wanna say thanks so much to our guests. Anna, Brian, Smokey and none other than Godless Girl. Thank you all for hanging out with us tonight. It's been a true pleasure. Thank you, my guys. Thank you, James, I appreciate it. We appreciate you all and thank you for having this conversation with us. Yes, definitely. Appreciate you guys. Appreciate you guys. This is exciting. I loved it. And so with that folks, we hope we see you tomorrow night for what may cause the internet to melt down folks. I am excited for it. It should be wild. And so with that, we hope you have a great rest of your night. Hit that like on the way out if you enjoyed listening to tonight's debate. I know I did. So yes, thanks everybody for hanging out with us. Thanks, mods. Mods, by the way, one quick thing. Housekeeping type thing. Tomorrow might be insane. So please remember any sort of hate speech, no warnings. That's the only thing we don't give any warnings for. Just delete them, ban them, and we just wipe them off the channel. And then like a bug off the windshield. Then as well, that we should be good, but tomorrow I won't be able to pay as much attention to the live chat. So appreciate you mods for all you do for real. And it keeps lifting out the reasonable from the unreasonable folks. Have a great night. Bye guys. Thank you, James. Thank you so much. Thank you Smokey and Godless. Thank you guys. Appreciate it. Take care. Have a good night.