 Hello and welcome to Issues and Answers, a production of the Government Information Service. I am your host, Geraldine B. Said-Joseph. The proud. The program for the regulation of unplanned developments was set up with the aim of rationalizing land occupation in existing squatter settlements and to transfer land titles to the established occupants. This has proven to be no easy task. However, the unit continues to, in its endeavor, to get the job done and to tell us a little bit about the proud and also the challenges that they face as well as the accomplishments that they've actually triumphed within. I'm actually joined today by the proud coordinator who is Mr. Kathwick McDermott and Mr. Ovid Mata, who is the project manager at Civil Works. Thank you for joining us today. Thank you for having us. Thanks for having us. Okay. Very briefly there in my introduction, I just gave a very general description of what the proud actually is. But can you give us more of a detailed insight into what the proud is for anybody out there who's unaware? Okay. The proud as the name's excess, a program for the regularization of unplanned developments, was an initiative implemented by a government official, primarily to take care of those persons who have occupied lands and they don't have title to it. They may have inadequate access, inadequate infrastructure, and they don't, as I indicated, don't have title to the property. So in 1999, there about the government official decided that wait a minute, we have a lot of persons with a significant investment in a residential structure, but they don't have title to it. So the program was initiated. What we do, and we do it specifically with lands owned by the Crown, we go in, we put in the necessary infrastructure, we subdivide the property, and we then transfer title to the persons in occupation. Okay. Are there many people, because maybe this is something that people are not aware of, are there many people who are actually living in that situation where they quote unquote kind of squatter developments around the island? Quite a few. Okay. They had 54 communities who were squatting, that's the last count, and that was only on Crown property. We're not talking about those on private property. Right. Okay. All right. Okay. And in saying that, can you give us a, why do you think, give us some insight into why you think we got into the situation where it is so prevalent that squatting takes place? Well, interestingly, it has a multifaceted, there are several reasons for it. One of them being simply where we came from. We have to recognize that we are an agrarian environment. Persons worked on a plantation. We were allowed to occupy the peripheries of that plantation. So you have a lot of communities that came out of that environment. We were close to the farm. We lived in that area, generations after built next to family members and continue. Some instances are a result of, persons have just identified a parcel of land and go in there and actually occupy a night spot. And one do it, then there's a continuation and a mushroom of that community. So the response, well, not a response. Another aspect is that it's in response to housing, it's in response to the need for shelter. Persons need a roof over their head. They cannot maybe afford what is available on the market and as such they provide housing for themselves. Okay. All right. So let me ask you, in the latter years, do you think that it's actually become, because you actually took us back in time there and gave us the history. But do you think that the situation has become worse or better as we have progressed? I think to a certain extent, certain elements have actually made it a little more difficult. I would go to say that the cost of housing or inflation has actually made it a brought housing a little away from those persons who may be in a position that they cannot make that income to build that home for themselves. Rental housing is expensive. And to a certain extent, even persons coming out from the rural communities into an urban environment and needing a place to stay and there isn't the response to that influx of persons, you would find those persons trying to create housing on the peripheries of that urban environment. Okay. All right. But we also need to point out that those unplanned developments are not only on state one lands. You have the situation where it happens on private properties where, the situation is called family land and persons, again, I was brought up in this area, just put up a house right next to my mother's house and this now, because it's a lot of unplanned communities as well. Okay. All right. Can you give us some insight into what we talked about different areas that you said there's many areas around San Lucia that actually we see a lot of squatting taking place. Can you tell us what were other areas that you might see this most of all? Okay. On the peripheries, you look at areas like Fawashu and Conway. In the countryside, we look at the sub-urban environment, or the rural environment, you have places like Piai, I mean, Piai is in the library, Piai is in social and district. And it's a private library. We have large issues before, we have contourment, we have poem, we have several places, this was all through the island, even in Babylon. And those are actually pretty large communities, right? Okay. That's to say that based on our inventions, we have actually targeted in excess of 1,800 households thus far. And if you look at what the stats office put out on an average household size of 2.3, you can imagine the extent of just what we have dealt with thus far. Okay. Now, I have to say that I have actually had the privilege of being able to get some insight into Proud, whereas I've attended a few meetings and such like, and one of the things that actually surprised me, I should say, is that not everybody's actually from the same socio-economic background who are actually being, you know, talked to in regards to that as well. Can you talk to us a bit about that, because everybody might just think it's only people from, I don't know, in a certain kind of bracket that might be in that situation. But that's not the case either, though. No, nothing is. And if I go back to the genesis of some of them, you have to recognize that some of our parents were able to work hard on the farms, put us through school, go through schools, but yet still become an occupier right next to them. So yes, they are persons who are very well off and they still live in that sort of environment because it is generally acceptable. Okay. Okay. All right. Very good. We'll be back in a minute. But before we go, I just want to say when we come back, I want to talk to you a little bit about how it is determined which are the crown lands and such likes, because I know there are sometimes when the proud actually goes in and they might be a dispute and such likes. So we'll just like to talk about that when we come back for the day. Okay. We'll be back in a moment. Hypertension is a deadly disease that is common in Saint Lucia. We depend on blood pressure monitors to determine if our blood pressure is too high or too low. If we're reading on these measuring devices being correct, we are literally putting our lives at risk. Doctors, caregivers, and patients, get your blood pressure meters verified by the Saint Lucia Bureau of Standards to ensure the accuracy of measuring devices. Look for the green pass speaker on the blood pressure meter at your next visit to the doctor. The correct reading can mean the difference between life and death. For more information, contact the Saint Lucia Bureau of Standards at 4560546 or email SLBS at candw.lc or visit the website at www.slbs.org.lc. Saint Lucia Bureau of Standards, making quality and standards our way of life. Welcome back to Issues and Answers. I'm joined today by representatives from Proud. Now gentlemen, before we went to the commercial break, I would like to talk a bit about the disputes when people might, how do you determine, in other words, that the land that people are on, crown lands and such like, and when disputes happen, what is the process that actually takes place? Okay. For us, the land titling act in Saint Lucia is quite clear. Any land that is owned by anybody needs to be registered. It needs to be registered at the land registry department. There is a register sign on that register. You'll see the survey plan information, if the property is surveyed, you will see the titling information, whether it is crown, unclaimed or private parcel, and it also gives you details as to what the ownership history of that parcel is. That is kept at the land registry department, and anybody who is interested or wants to find out information can actually go there and get information about the parcel of land. Right. Along that line, so once there's a dispute, all we do, we call for a copy of the register. If the register identifies that parcel of crown property, then we can actually go into that area. However, we don't go into all of the areas, right? All areas that are deemed fine crown, we will not go into that. Proud is guided by cabinet conclusion. We have a mandate, right? So the cabinet ministers would decide that Proud needs to enter into, for example, contourment. Where in contourment, we go to registers, we define our area. We get that land. If it is in the possession of other sister agencies like the National Development Corporation or the Central Ocean National Housing Corporation, we would actually do a divestment, bring it into the crown. Bring it across to the crown, then we actually go in and we would be in a position to deal with any complaints. Our first point of complaint investigation, all our complaints are registered and logged. So we have a number signed to it. That is a sign to an officer, an investigation is done, and then we do the follow-ups. Okay. All right. And I know, Mr. Matta, you were to touch on as well, why people actually gravitate to unplanned developments. Why would you say that actually happens? Well, in speaking with our beneficiaries, the person that we actually attend to in our developments. Some places have pointed out that a lot of the times they rarely think that it is just bush as they push it, that the land is not owned by anybody. But I like to reiterate, like Mr. McNamara said, that every piece of land in St. Lucia is owned by somebody. If it's not privately owned, it is state-owned. But every piece of land is owned and there's nothing called bush that you could just go and conquer, as you like to say. Okay. Other times people have pointed out that the approval process is very lengthy or very expensive, and they find that it's in their best interest to just go and develop unplanned. But the coincidences of that far outweigh whatever benefits that the persons may think that they have at the time. So they have pointed out several reasons for unplanned settlements, but then none of them actually justify doing those developments. Okay. Okay. Now that we've actually determined how it is brought about that people know which land is crown land and such likes. When the proud steps in now, what is the process that actually takes place? Because I mean you mentioned before about making sure that the land is divided properly. I know that things actually put in place utilities and such likes, right? And drainage and stuff. That is correct. Give us some details about that because I don't want people to think it's just a case of just dividing the land and saying who owns what. It's not just a case of that. That is correct. There's a lot of groundwork as well. Tell me a little bit about that. That is correct. As indicated, once the cabinet ministers have identified an area for our intervention, our first point of access of our post activities is that we call it as much information as possible on that community. So we will go to the land registry, do the desk research, pull whatever files that we have by sister agencies, get an understanding of what is there. Once we have done that, then we actually go in and we speak to the later persons, later persons know that this community has been identified for prouds intervention. We will be coming in and we will be doing foreign particular steps. Once we've done that, then we would go in, we'll do a socio, we'd pick up every single person that is in there. We would send in and do an occupational. That's here, six to see how the persons have occupied the space, right? Where there are ravines, drains, whatever have you. Once that is done, we would go through the process of preparing the rationalization plan. A lot of persons believe that proud do not have to go through the DCE process, but that is untrue. Let Mr. Mata speak more of that a little later, but we go through the very same processes that a normal developer will have to go through. All right. So once we prepare the rationalization plan, then we get the detailed plans prepared also through engineering assistance. Once that is done, we put in necessary infrastructure, whether it be roads, accesses, water infrastructure where it needs upgrading, electricity infrastructure if it needs to be upgraded, and then our end goal is to ensure that the persons who are there have title to the property. Okay. All right? So then we facilitate them actually having title to the land they occupy. Okay, pretty good. All right. Let Mr. Mata go into the greater picture. Please do, because I know you actually mentioned DCE. It tells you a little bit about the DCE and everything else. Right, so even before we get to the DCE, like Mr. Mata said, it's a number of surveys. So you mentioned the occupational survey, where we go and see what structures, what infrastructure is in the community. You also mentioned the socioeconomic surveys, where we deliver the people and find out the employment and the family size, those kind of things. But then we also have land surveys that we have to conduct. So then we get the boundary surveys. We get the topographical surveys. All of that information is used to prepare the rationalization plan, like we mentioned. In our cases, since our developments are so extensive, like I mentioned earlier, they're pretty large communities. We don't normally just go out for engineering designs one time. We usually start with a prime principle, or prepare a plan, and we consult with not only the community members, but our sister agencies, so Department of Infrastructure, Environmental Health, the DCE, social transformation. We consult everybody back and forth, including the district reps. When we finalize our layout, we actually have to get a approval from the DCE for our master plan. Okay, now hold it right there. Before we get into what your master plan is on the DCE, we're just going to take a short break. We'll be back in a moment. I am a child. I am HIV positive. I am a Muslim. I'm a journalist. I'm a political activist. I'm differently abled. I am Chinese. And me, I'm a little plus size. The first step toward change is awareness. The second step is acceptance of individuality and differences within all of us. A message brought to you by the Department of Health and Wellness. You are watching Issues and Answers, and I'm joined by representatives from the proud. Now, before we went to the break, Mr. Matter, you were telling me a little bit about the DCE. Yes, so we stopped on the master plan. The master plan in and of itself is a process. Now, to get your approval in principle, which is what the master plan is, you have to consult with other agencies. And they ensure that our development, our proposals, meet all best practices in engineering, as well as planning guidelines. They ensure that our lot configurations are OK, our densities, our road sizes and connections. We have to confer with the fire department to ensure that there is adequate access for emergency equipment. After we've done all of that, and we've gotten feedback from the agencies, the sanitary department and whatnot, and they're satisfied that our layout is OK, our zoning, all of that is on point, then now we have to go and get our engineering designs done. That's when it becomes very interesting for me, because my background is engineering. So that's when we go back to the survey information that we have gotten at the beginning, where we get the topographical surveys or computational surveys, and then we fine-tune our designs now, actually doing our drainage calculations, our road designs. And then now, when we've designed our construction plans, we have to go back to the DCE to get approval, like every other agency, as Mr. Maglamade pointed out, or every other private person. And then the process continues. They have to consult the health department, they have to consult the Ministry of Infrastructure. And yes, finally, we get our full approval, where we can actually go and start surveys and subdivide in the land. But this is only the end of the rationalization process. Regularization does not end there, because like Mr. Maglamade pointed out earlier on, we actually are about transferring title to residents. It's not just about building roads, it's about drains, putting in lights. That is just the first part of it. The Swiss Silicon Information we got in the beginning helps us when we're actually doing the second phase, which is the transfer of title. Okay, all right, brilliant, okay. Now you mentioned a few agencies that you work with, right? Yes. But I know you actually work with a large number of agencies. Just can you just touch on a couple more and then just tell us exactly how they help you to bring about the mandate of the town. Yes, as indicated, the Prout is a social program. And for that reason, we recognize that there are social maladies associated with our communities. So in as much as possible, we don't want to just focus on just the infrastructure or just the transfer. We need to see how best we can bring persons or empower persons. So certain elements is bringing on those sister agencies who can assist us in empowering persons. So for example, the National Skills Development Center is one of those key agencies. The whole drive for bringing them on board is that where we can see that there's deficiency in skills, maybe we can assist by providing persons with a training opportunity. We brought on the Sandwichia Police, Morroir Sandwichia Police Force. The reason being that community policing is an element that can go far away to assist persons in empowering them. All right, we have some of our communities that may not see the value of it, but interactive the police allows the police to better know you and be in that position. It's easy, it's a phone call away. We've brought in Sandwichia Waste Management Authority. They again, they assist us in waste disposal. They can identify those areas where we have derelict vehicles, where we have poor waste disposal, poor sanitation. We can get that address. The Ministry of Infrastructure. Ministry of Infrastructure, where there are things that are a little beyond our means to handle, we can actually get infrastructure to get involved in that area. So for example, in areas like Bexaw, where you have some of the streams of waterways clogged, infrastructure responsible for distilling and declaring, so we can actually get those persons on board there. We are, Mr. Matta has just reminded me of the Salvation Development Bank. The point of the Salvation Development Bank is where persons may not see the means for actually gaining title. The bank is brought on board to actually provide them with opportunities. Okay, so we also have other agencies who have similar mandates as us. So we actually try to look for synergies with those agencies or programs, like the Disaster Variability Reduction Program or Constituency Development Program. So we actually work alongside with those agencies and programs to implement our own mandates. Right, and I know for a fact that you also have a lot of site visits and even community meetings, which, and how important do you find that these site visits and community meetings are in meeting your mandate as well? Well, key to it all is that there needs to be that constant dialogue with the communities, that constant communication. I think that some of our community members are a bit frustrated that they have not seen work on ground and they're the concern that we're having too much consultation with them, but it is better to have a little too much consultation with them, they're not enough consultation at later on, they're dissatisfied with what is given to them. There's that need for striking that balance. So we have constant dialogue with our community. At every single phase stage of the process, we bring it back to the community, we tell them why, we get the feedback from them, and we try to ensure that they're very well aware of everything that is going on under the crowd. Okay, brilliant. Now again, I just touched on the community meetings and such like that. I know there's always something sent out to tell people to come along and attend the meeting, especially when it's in their communities because it's very important for people to do so. But if there's anybody watching this, how would you tell them to actually get in touch with the crowd right now if they just wanted to drop you guys a line and such like? Oh, well, they could actually visit us at our main office. Our main office is now at the Conway Business Center, that is the Cassius Care Park on the seventh floor. They can telephone in, they can telephone in at 468-2600. They can also send us, we're just in the process of launching a Facebook page. So hopefully they can actually send us a message on our Facebook page also. We once had a site office in Vuefort, unfortunately it's no longer functional, but we hope to actually bring a site office to Vuefort that those persons in the south can actually get in touch with us. Okay, all right. Another thing that we're trying to encourage is community groups. So in the past, we've not been relied, but we've patented some community leaders or officers, point persons in the communities that can interact with us on behalf of the communities. But we're trying to encourage the communities to make formal groups, and then we can have that point of contact with them. Okay, brilliant. Okay, well, we're gonna be winding down in a little while, but before we do, I just want to ask both of you, if you could comment on, what would you say to people, like if you were to give a call to action in regards to why they should come forward, contact the proud, or even if they've been contacted, to actually make sure that they actually do go ahead with the process and such like. Because I find that again, I have had the privilege of working with the proud, and I find that even in talking to people, sometimes they don't realize how much it would benefit them to actually make sure they go through the process. So what would you say to people for them to understand that this is something that is actually good for them to do? I'll let you have the last one, so I'll go first. Just to remind people, one of the reasons that it has taken the proud so long to actually implement the infrastructure is every time that we come up with a rational design for the area, when we're starting to get our approval, then we see something comes up. We plan a road here, and somebody has come to a house here, or you plan to put a drain there, and somebody has come and done an extension to their dwelling. Those kind of things actually frustrate the process. So we're just hoping that it can bear patience with us. It works in their benefit to wait until the process is complete before they do anything. Another thing is our sites are declared as special enforcement areas, meaning that no type of development is supposed to go on without this year approval. So once you go and get this approval, it would not disrupt the rest of the process in rationalization. Okay, yeah. I understand that. Well, I'm begging your indulgence by just allowing me to give one explanation, because I think that a lot of our communities speak of proud, and once they use the term proud, it's synonymous with all crown lands. Unfortunately, that is not the case. Okay. There are different agencies that are responsible for doing work on lands that belong to the crown. I named a few, like the Salvation National Housing Corporation, the Invest Salvation and National Development Corporation, NDC, it was for me, known as. These agencies also work on crown, on crown property. Additionally, crown themselves work on crown property. The property that we targeted are guided by cabinet conclusion. So for example, as I indicated earlier, the cabinet ministers tell us go into the community of Bexar, and we go there. And consequently, we are not responsible for all of crown property. We are responsible for selected areas. That being explained, so you could actually go to the commission of crown lands where you're interested in lands that are not under the jurisdiction of the proud unit. That said, I think it is important, like Mr. Mahathir noted, is to recognize that the whole point of actually ensuring that person's bill to quote, a billion areas that are suitable is to ensure that in the future, that investment that you have made is not subject to a hazardous event. Okay. Right? So I would like to extend our persons to recognize that there's a purpose, there's a reason to ensure that you're not exposed to hazardous events. Well, thank you so much. That's brilliant. Thank you for joining me. Mr. Mahathir and Mr. McFarland. Hopefully you can come back another time and we can have another discussion because it's been a wonderful experience. Definitely, thanks. Thank you for watching issues and answers from all of us here. Bye-bye for now.